WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.480 So, welcome to the Improving Development Evaluation 00:00:03.480 --> 00:00:07.620 Podcast. I'm your host, David Wand, and in this 00:00:07.620 --> 00:00:10.560 episode, we're going to feature again the Global 00:00:10.560 --> 00:00:14.480 Community Engagement Resilience Fund, GSERF, 00:00:14.500 --> 00:00:18.339 G -C -E -R -F. You can find out more about this 00:00:18.339 --> 00:00:22.280 organization at their website at GSERF, G -C 00:00:22.280 --> 00:00:28.379 -E -R -F .org. In this one, we're going to talk 00:00:28.379 --> 00:00:32.880 about 1 .1 million U .S. dollars that the G -Surf 00:00:32.880 --> 00:00:36.020 received from the Canadian taxpayer. Being a 00:00:36.020 --> 00:00:39.820 fund, I featured them before on another episode 00:00:39.820 --> 00:00:43.259 for $5 million that they spent with the United 00:00:43.259 --> 00:00:46.020 States government. This is for the Canadian government. 00:00:46.240 --> 00:00:49.439 And what they do as being a fund is they then 00:00:49.439 --> 00:00:54.340 develop either one single grant project or several 00:00:54.340 --> 00:00:59.159 sub... projects or sub grants out of this 1 .1 00:00:59.159 --> 00:01:02.119 million then they give it to a variety of organizations 00:01:02.119 --> 00:01:06.480 in developing countries and then hope that they 00:01:06.480 --> 00:01:10.519 deliver services based on that money to achieve 00:01:10.519 --> 00:01:14.439 a series of outcomes now the good news is g -surf 00:01:14.439 --> 00:01:17.359 has done a lot of work to tell you in advance 00:01:17.359 --> 00:01:21.719 what if you give them money what they expect 00:01:21.719 --> 00:01:25.040 to achieve with that money when they deliver 00:01:25.040 --> 00:01:27.920 services in developing countries. So just to 00:01:27.920 --> 00:01:29.680 repeat, if you haven't seen the other episode, 00:01:29.879 --> 00:01:33.500 heard the other episode, there are four outcomes 00:01:33.500 --> 00:01:38.900 they expect to achieve if this money is effective. 00:01:39.719 --> 00:01:42.819 The first one is increased social cohesion. Number 00:01:42.819 --> 00:01:45.480 two, increased ability to mobilize, organize. 00:01:46.239 --> 00:01:48.480 represent their own interests. That's what they 00:01:48.480 --> 00:01:51.560 call agency. Outcome number three, increased 00:01:51.560 --> 00:01:54.260 knowledge, skills, as well as subsequent increases 00:01:54.260 --> 00:01:57.980 in income, access to livelihoods. Outcome number 00:01:57.980 --> 00:02:00.900 four, increased confidence, critical thinking, 00:02:01.159 --> 00:02:04.739 life skills, self -worth, and resilience, what 00:02:04.739 --> 00:02:07.920 they refer to as sense of purpose. So that's 00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:10.500 on their website, in their strategy documents. 00:02:11.120 --> 00:02:13.280 They basically are very clear, which is good. 00:02:13.379 --> 00:02:15.939 You give us the money. We'll deliver services. 00:02:16.219 --> 00:02:18.879 And in the short term and in the long term, we're 00:02:18.879 --> 00:02:22.259 going to achieve any one of these four possible 00:02:22.259 --> 00:02:26.580 outcomes. So that's pretty clear. They also mentioned 00:02:26.580 --> 00:02:29.780 on their website, very clearly, that although 00:02:29.780 --> 00:02:33.699 they're a fund, they are still responsible for, 00:02:33.900 --> 00:02:37.780 and I quote, at the grant level, each project 00:02:37.780 --> 00:02:40.240 is guided by a theory of change and a results 00:02:40.240 --> 00:02:43.000 framework with outcome and output indicators. 00:02:43.960 --> 00:02:46.560 requiring grantees to collect baseline data, 00:02:46.719 --> 00:02:50.800 report quarterly, and conduct final assessments. 00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:55.659 So it's pretty clear that even though they're 00:02:55.659 --> 00:02:58.300 a fund, they're still responsible for making 00:02:58.300 --> 00:03:00.979 sure the organizations they give the money to 00:03:00.979 --> 00:03:04.680 are achieving any one of those four outcomes. 00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:08.699 So you would expect in their reporting they would 00:03:08.699 --> 00:03:12.000 have some outcome indicators on how they measure 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:15.500 social cohesion, how they measure agency, how 00:03:15.500 --> 00:03:18.000 they measure increased knowledge, how they measure 00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:21.139 access to livelihoods, i .e. increases income, 00:03:21.319 --> 00:03:24.460 and how they measure sense of purpose, increased 00:03:24.460 --> 00:03:26.860 confidence, critical thinking, life skills, self 00:03:26.860 --> 00:03:30.039 -worth. So it's pretty clear from that point. 00:03:30.180 --> 00:03:34.159 So given that, I'm going to give you a bit of 00:03:34.159 --> 00:03:35.919 history here because it gets a bit complicated. 00:03:36.639 --> 00:03:41.199 In September of 2024, over a year ago, I made 00:03:41.199 --> 00:03:45.580 the request to Global Affairs Canada through 00:03:45.580 --> 00:03:48.680 an access to information request for the performance 00:03:48.680 --> 00:03:53.280 measurement frameworks for the sub grants that 00:03:53.280 --> 00:03:56.259 GSURF would produce or projects out of this 1 00:03:56.259 --> 00:04:00.419 .1 million US dollars that you as a Canadian 00:04:00.419 --> 00:04:03.780 taxpayer has given to GSURF who then turn around 00:04:03.780 --> 00:04:07.460 and produce and create. these grants in these 00:04:07.460 --> 00:04:10.080 developing countries to achieve any one of these 00:04:10.080 --> 00:04:15.080 four outcomes. October 2024, Global Affairs Canada 00:04:15.080 --> 00:04:18.500 replied, no performance measurement frameworks 00:04:18.500 --> 00:04:24.920 exist for these sub -grants. So I submitted a 00:04:24.920 --> 00:04:27.279 complaint to the Information Commission of Canada 00:04:27.279 --> 00:04:31.279 and I said, if there's no PMFs, give me something, 00:04:31.540 --> 00:04:34.620 give me anything that can show that they're actually 00:04:34.620 --> 00:04:38.389 measuring using outcome indicators that any one 00:04:38.389 --> 00:04:40.310 of these four outcomes are actually being achieved. 00:04:41.170 --> 00:04:45.810 And they came back in February of 2025 and they 00:04:45.810 --> 00:04:51.490 said, well, you're right. They don't have any 00:04:51.490 --> 00:04:55.410 PMFs. They're not required. But there are, quote, 00:04:55.610 --> 00:04:59.790 quarterly reports linked to this 1 .1 million 00:04:59.790 --> 00:05:03.810 U .S. dollars. And I said, great. So then in 00:05:03.810 --> 00:05:08.430 July 2025, I made a request for these quarterly 00:05:08.430 --> 00:05:12.149 reports, attaching this email from Information 00:05:12.149 --> 00:05:17.970 Commission of Canada, confirming that these quarterly 00:05:17.970 --> 00:05:22.009 reports actually did exist. And I said, again, 00:05:22.189 --> 00:05:26.189 give me the outcome indicators for these funds 00:05:26.189 --> 00:05:31.350 out of these quarterly reports. And in August, 00:05:32.110 --> 00:05:34.550 Global Affairs Canada came back to me and said 00:05:34.550 --> 00:05:37.550 they needed a time extension on my request, even 00:05:37.550 --> 00:05:40.910 though these quarterly reports were produced 00:05:40.910 --> 00:05:45.810 way back in 2024 because the money was coming 00:05:45.810 --> 00:05:49.949 out of 2023. So even despite the fact the report's 00:05:49.949 --> 00:05:53.350 sitting on a shelf for over a year, they needed 00:05:53.350 --> 00:05:59.829 an extension. So I said, all right, waited for 00:05:59.829 --> 00:06:06.560 the extension. October of 2025, I finally received 00:06:06.560 --> 00:06:12.519 a five -page report dated from GSURF in June 00:06:12.519 --> 00:06:16.800 of 2024 from a board meeting where they talk 00:06:16.800 --> 00:06:26.540 about the so -called results or outcomes that 00:06:26.540 --> 00:06:29.720 I had requested. Now, before we get into the 00:06:29.720 --> 00:06:34.399 critique of that five -page report and its insufficiencies, 00:06:34.459 --> 00:06:40.000 I would like to digress a bit here and talk to 00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:46.000 you about the fact that we have made a few changes 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:49.819 to the podcast in the sense that I'm advocating. 00:06:50.909 --> 00:06:54.029 for proper evaluation, but I'd like the listeners 00:06:54.029 --> 00:06:56.250 to send an email. So in the notes, I'll give 00:06:56.250 --> 00:06:59.209 you the email addresses and the names of the 00:06:59.209 --> 00:07:02.810 members of parliament responsible for the NDP 00:07:02.810 --> 00:07:04.730 and conservative shadow critics on international 00:07:04.730 --> 00:07:07.290 development, as well as the secretary of state 00:07:07.290 --> 00:07:09.250 for the liberal government for international 00:07:09.250 --> 00:07:12.870 development, so that you can recommend that they 00:07:12.870 --> 00:07:15.730 do proper evaluation. And until they do, they 00:07:15.730 --> 00:07:18.670 should suspend funding to these organizations. 00:07:18.670 --> 00:07:23.819 So in this case, And also, as usual, I will be 00:07:23.819 --> 00:07:28.019 prepared to reply to any email. You can email 00:07:28.019 --> 00:07:32.879 me at evaluatecanadaid at gmail .com if you want 00:07:32.879 --> 00:07:36.439 a copy of any of my critiques of any of the performance 00:07:36.439 --> 00:07:38.839 measurement frameworks from any of the previous 00:07:38.839 --> 00:07:42.399 episodes and, of course, the critique for this 00:07:42.399 --> 00:07:46.560 episode. And you can also make a donation. There's 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:48.899 a donation button where you can buy me a coffee. 00:07:49.439 --> 00:07:53.980 because I need $5 to ask for more performance 00:07:53.980 --> 00:07:56.920 measurement frameworks. And despite the fact 00:07:56.920 --> 00:07:59.519 that they're produced years ago and money's already 00:07:59.519 --> 00:08:02.819 been spent, there's incredible delays in producing 00:08:02.819 --> 00:08:07.040 them for this podcast. Some journalists have 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:10.160 suggested that's because it's a political stalling 00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:13.600 tactic. I don't know, but it's unfortunate that 00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:16.720 I have to wait for these PMFs or their equivalent 00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:21.459 before I can do an episode. And I have noticed 00:08:21.459 --> 00:08:25.399 in the last 14 days that there's people in Saudi 00:08:25.399 --> 00:08:28.860 Arabia, Ethiopia, Ghana, Nigeria, and Brazil 00:08:28.860 --> 00:08:31.899 that are listening to this podcast. So given 00:08:31.899 --> 00:08:34.899 that and the fact that Canadians and Americans 00:08:34.899 --> 00:08:36.980 in international development do go to the Global 00:08:36.980 --> 00:08:40.340 South, I will again promote the three products 00:08:40.340 --> 00:08:42.860 that you need to go to the Global South, usually 00:08:42.860 --> 00:08:45.700 when it's hot and humid. 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And I get a 00:10:45.330 --> 00:10:49.330 20 % commission of the total purchase you make 00:10:49.330 --> 00:10:52.470 when you use my promo code, WANCOOLT -SHIRTS. 00:10:52.870 --> 00:10:56.149 So what is so cool about these Hypernatural t 00:10:56.149 --> 00:10:59.070 -shirts? They have a patent pending Hypercool 00:10:59.070 --> 00:11:02.789 Jade technology that when it's hot, it lowers 00:11:02.789 --> 00:11:05.629 your body temperature by three to five degrees. 00:11:05.990 --> 00:11:11.470 They are also breathable. thanks to cotton. And 00:11:11.470 --> 00:11:14.309 they are sold in premium retailers like Nordstrom. 00:11:14.830 --> 00:11:18.889 Supina cotton, that is. And were voted the best 00:11:18.889 --> 00:11:23.429 men's polo shirts in 2024 in Men's Journal, Forbes, 00:11:23.629 --> 00:11:27.490 and Esquire. So there you have some sales, interesting, 00:11:27.590 --> 00:11:29.889 relevant products to your work in the global 00:11:29.889 --> 00:11:33.309 south. Now what we're going to do is get into 00:11:33.309 --> 00:11:37.370 details about the five -page report. that was 00:11:37.370 --> 00:11:43.570 provided to me in response to my request for 00:11:43.570 --> 00:11:48.090 outcome indicators. Because that's critical, 00:11:48.450 --> 00:11:51.389 right? And the first problem with this five -page 00:11:51.389 --> 00:11:56.570 report is that they make these claims, but there's 00:11:56.570 --> 00:11:58.509 no outcome indicators. Most of them are output 00:11:58.509 --> 00:12:02.539 indicators. Talking about... what they've actually 00:12:02.539 --> 00:12:04.779 delivered in terms of services, but they don't 00:12:04.779 --> 00:12:06.960 talk about the next step, which is once you deliver 00:12:06.960 --> 00:12:10.500 the services, what expected outcomes of the four 00:12:10.500 --> 00:12:12.960 that we mentioned previously, did they achieve? 00:12:13.240 --> 00:12:16.960 So for example, on page one of this document, 00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:20.100 they say, G -SURF funded projects continue, for 00:12:20.100 --> 00:12:23.639 example, to educate and create livelihood opportunities, 00:12:24.360 --> 00:12:27.740 build critical thinking skills, rehabilitate 00:12:27.740 --> 00:12:30.779 and reintegrate former combatants and their families. 00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:36.279 and often claim with, quote, remarkable efficiency 00:12:36.279 --> 00:12:39.240 and cost effectiveness. The problem is there's 00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:42.120 no measures of effectiveness, which is a Development 00:12:42.120 --> 00:12:46.980 Assistance Committee criteria. There's no outcome 00:12:46.980 --> 00:12:49.860 indicator. So I'm going to read for the record 00:12:49.860 --> 00:12:52.860 verbatim from the results that they do provide 00:12:52.860 --> 00:12:56.299 in my request for outcome indicators. Quote, 00:12:56.299 --> 00:12:59.549 a selection of results to date. which illustrate 00:12:59.549 --> 00:13:04.570 the diversity of these efforts include 358 local 00:13:04.570 --> 00:13:08.149 partners funded in 22 countries, 27 new grants 00:13:08.149 --> 00:13:11.690 signed and 59 grants in total with 44 under active 00:13:11.690 --> 00:13:16.350 implementation in 2023. Nearly 20 million indirect 00:13:16.350 --> 00:13:19.509 beneficiaries reached in addition to 3 .8 million 00:13:19.509 --> 00:13:22.789 reached directly. You notice heavy emphasis on 00:13:22.789 --> 00:13:25.809 reach, but not what happens after they reach 00:13:25.809 --> 00:13:28.070 them with these services. So let's get to the 00:13:28.070 --> 00:13:31.190 more specific ones. More than 35 ,000 religious 00:13:31.190 --> 00:13:34.190 leaders engaged in conflict resolution, but did 00:13:34.190 --> 00:13:36.809 it resolve the conflict? No measurement. Peace 00:13:36.809 --> 00:13:40.309 advocacy? We don't know if they have ability 00:13:40.309 --> 00:13:43.289 to advocate. Critical thinking? No measures of 00:13:43.289 --> 00:13:46.159 critical thinking. Leadership skills, no measures 00:13:46.159 --> 00:13:50.179 of leadership skills. More than 57 ,000 individuals 00:13:50.179 --> 00:13:52.779 reached with livelihood and employability related 00:13:52.779 --> 00:13:57.519 interventions. Again, no measures in the report 00:13:57.519 --> 00:14:00.240 of indicators, outcome indicators to measure 00:14:00.240 --> 00:14:04.919 income or vocational skill acquisition. And here's 00:14:04.919 --> 00:14:07.480 the big one. More than 400 ,000 participants 00:14:07.480 --> 00:14:10.919 reached with cultural and sports activities to, 00:14:10.940 --> 00:14:15.200 quote, build social cohesion. and prevent violent 00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:18.639 extremism. There's no measures of social cohesion 00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:22.259 in the report, nothing. And as I mentioned on 00:14:22.259 --> 00:14:25.620 my previous episode with GSERF for the 5 million 00:14:25.620 --> 00:14:29.799 in the United States, I'll say it again here, 00:14:29.980 --> 00:14:33.000 for $40 you can get the University of California 00:14:33.000 --> 00:14:37.820 Irvine Net, UC Net, social networking software 00:14:37.820 --> 00:14:42.240 that will measure levels of social cohesion. 00:14:42.620 --> 00:14:45.399 before, during, and after a sports activity. 00:14:45.960 --> 00:14:50.639 For example, G -Surf has held a soccer football 00:14:50.639 --> 00:14:55.080 game between religious madrasa students and public 00:14:55.080 --> 00:14:57.980 non -religious students to see if that would 00:14:57.980 --> 00:15:00.840 build social cohesion. But there's no measure 00:15:00.840 --> 00:15:03.220 of that before, during, and after. And you could 00:15:03.220 --> 00:15:06.580 do it very easily, measuring something called 00:15:06.580 --> 00:15:09.779 reciprocity as a measure of social cohesion. 00:15:09.919 --> 00:15:15.860 That's an example. And Marco Rubio on a YouTube 00:15:15.860 --> 00:15:19.600 video has shown testifying that he's proud of 00:15:19.600 --> 00:15:24.480 taking away a $14 million project in Mali that 00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:28.340 was building social cohesion. And he said, quote, 00:15:28.419 --> 00:15:30.899 whatever the hell that is. Well, here's an example 00:15:30.899 --> 00:15:34.299 where you could show him this is how you measure 00:15:34.299 --> 00:15:38.029 and build social cohesion. And that may, maybe 00:15:38.029 --> 00:15:41.129 not, convince him, oh, okay, I see what you mean 00:15:41.129 --> 00:15:44.090 now. Let's go ahead and continue the funding. 00:15:44.250 --> 00:15:47.870 But if you don't do that, obviously people will 00:15:47.870 --> 00:15:51.490 use that, as this example shows, where they have 00:15:51.490 --> 00:15:54.789 scrapped the funding. There could be other reasons, 00:15:55.009 --> 00:15:57.309 of course, for why the funding was suspended, 00:15:57.549 --> 00:16:01.450 but that's a major one. So this is the problem 00:16:01.450 --> 00:16:08.590 with this response. to my request for outcome 00:16:08.590 --> 00:16:11.409 indicators. There's none in this report. To be 00:16:11.409 --> 00:16:14.990 fair to GSERF, the government of Canada, when 00:16:14.990 --> 00:16:18.190 they provided this funding to GSERF, may not 00:16:18.190 --> 00:16:21.230 have required it. We still don't know. So I've 00:16:21.230 --> 00:16:24.730 issued a complaint to the Office of the Information 00:16:24.730 --> 00:16:27.629 Commissioner of Canada to go to the next level 00:16:27.629 --> 00:16:30.730 and say, I did receive a response, but once again, 00:16:30.929 --> 00:16:34.429 I didn't get any outcome indicators. So I would 00:16:34.429 --> 00:16:37.990 like to know if they do exist, and if they do 00:16:37.990 --> 00:16:41.710 exist, can we see them? But currently, here was 00:16:41.710 --> 00:16:44.470 an opportunity for GSERF to provide some outcome 00:16:44.470 --> 00:16:47.750 indicators, and they did not. So I would go ahead 00:16:47.750 --> 00:16:50.350 and recommend that funding be suspended for GSERF 00:16:50.350 --> 00:16:54.090 until they start properly evaluating their projects. 00:16:54.830 --> 00:16:58.149 They can't just say, because we're a fund, we're 00:16:58.149 --> 00:17:01.509 not responsible. Because as I have said earlier, 00:17:02.090 --> 00:17:05.049 It's clear on their website that they are responsible 00:17:05.049 --> 00:17:08.849 for grantees in developing outcome indicators 00:17:08.849 --> 00:17:12.990 and measuring them to make sure that any one 00:17:12.990 --> 00:17:15.849 of those four indicators, social cohesion, agency, 00:17:16.250 --> 00:17:19.150 or increased knowledge or increases in income 00:17:19.150 --> 00:17:22.569 or sense of purpose are being achieved. So that 00:17:22.569 --> 00:17:26.089 is not the case right now. So when it comes to 00:17:26.089 --> 00:17:31.269 rehabilitation and reintegration of former combatants, 00:17:32.329 --> 00:17:35.369 There is a plethora of outcome indicators you 00:17:35.369 --> 00:17:38.289 can use in the field of psychology to measure 00:17:38.289 --> 00:17:42.029 levels of reintegration and levels of rehabilitation. 00:17:42.710 --> 00:17:45.029 And there's no mention of that in this report. 00:17:45.269 --> 00:17:48.490 They have an opportunity to hire a consultant, 00:17:48.670 --> 00:17:51.470 a psychologist, to develop some of these measuring 00:17:51.470 --> 00:17:54.809 instruments, or not even develop them, but get 00:17:54.809 --> 00:17:57.069 them from the literature. The other one that's 00:17:57.069 --> 00:18:00.210 a big stretch that I've mentioned before is this 00:18:00.210 --> 00:18:05.549 claim that if they achieve these four outcomes, 00:18:05.789 --> 00:18:11.230 those in turn will contribute to a reduction 00:18:11.230 --> 00:18:13.809 or prevention of violent extremism. And just 00:18:13.809 --> 00:18:17.210 to quote again from the report, more than 400 00:18:17.210 --> 00:18:20.430 ,000 participants reached with cultural and sports 00:18:20.430 --> 00:18:24.829 activities to build social cohesion and prevent 00:18:24.829 --> 00:18:28.230 violent extremism. There's no evidence in the 00:18:28.230 --> 00:18:31.210 report. of any outcome indicator showing that 00:18:31.210 --> 00:18:33.309 social cohesion has actually been increased. 00:18:33.690 --> 00:18:38.250 And there's absolutely no evidence provided in 00:18:38.250 --> 00:18:41.210 this report that shows that that in turn, or 00:18:41.210 --> 00:18:43.250 for that matter, any of the outcomes that they 00:18:43.250 --> 00:18:46.609 expect to achieve have contributed to a prevention 00:18:46.609 --> 00:18:50.289 of violent extremism. Now, it is possible to 00:18:50.289 --> 00:18:53.930 show that link. One way to do that is to develop 00:18:53.930 --> 00:18:57.329 a multiple regression statistical model, which 00:18:57.329 --> 00:19:00.960 you could do. And again, you could hire a statistician 00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:04.079 to do it and say, here are some outcome indicators 00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:07.880 for the four expected outcomes you have. Here's 00:19:07.880 --> 00:19:09.559 how they would look in a multiple regression 00:19:09.559 --> 00:19:12.859 equation. And then on the dependent variable 00:19:12.859 --> 00:19:16.619 side, we could have a measure of whether or not 00:19:16.619 --> 00:19:22.500 violent extremism has been reduced or prevented, 00:19:22.640 --> 00:19:25.440 as this report is claiming with absolutely no 00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:28.190 empirical evidence at all. So that's why we can't 00:19:28.190 --> 00:19:32.250 fund GSERF until they start producing outcome 00:19:32.250 --> 00:19:37.069 indicators with the related data that shows these 00:19:37.069 --> 00:19:40.269 expected outcomes have been achieved. And I would 00:19:40.269 --> 00:19:42.170 give them a break and I would say, look, that's 00:19:42.170 --> 00:19:44.529 good enough. If you can show that you've achieved 00:19:44.529 --> 00:19:47.950 any of these four outcomes, increase social cohesion, 00:19:48.049 --> 00:19:50.410 especially outcome number three, which is very 00:19:50.410 --> 00:19:54.670 easy to do. I did it in Kano, Nigeria. With Adam 00:19:54.670 --> 00:19:57.769 Smith International, they were training adolescent 00:19:57.769 --> 00:20:02.730 female women who were vulnerable to violent extremism 00:20:02.730 --> 00:20:05.589 and human trafficking, becoming suicide bombers. 00:20:05.890 --> 00:20:08.269 So they were training them in vocational skills. 00:20:08.450 --> 00:20:11.309 You can measure those skills to see if they actually 00:20:11.309 --> 00:20:14.849 become, through a certification test, a certified 00:20:14.849 --> 00:20:17.349 seamstress. And then from that, you can track 00:20:17.349 --> 00:20:20.210 to see if they actually made income from that 00:20:20.210 --> 00:20:23.450 new acquired skill. That would be sufficient. 00:20:24.170 --> 00:20:27.390 To make the link from there to preventing violent 00:20:27.390 --> 00:20:29.990 extremism statistically would be a little bit 00:20:29.990 --> 00:20:33.130 more complicated. But at least they could try 00:20:33.130 --> 00:20:37.109 to show through the social cohesion example I 00:20:37.109 --> 00:20:40.430 gave of an outcome indicator and a measuring 00:20:40.430 --> 00:20:44.269 instrument called UCNet software. And of course, 00:20:44.309 --> 00:20:47.109 vocational skills and followed by subsequent 00:20:47.109 --> 00:20:49.990 increases in income. Those would be pretty easy 00:20:49.990 --> 00:20:54.089 to show that the... organizations that g -surf 00:20:54.089 --> 00:20:57.789 has funded with your 1 .1 million dollars has 00:20:57.789 --> 00:21:01.970 actually been quote effective but right now there's 00:21:01.970 --> 00:21:06.430 no evidence that any of this money has been effective 00:21:06.430 --> 00:21:11.069 certainly not cost effective as this five -page 00:21:11.069 --> 00:21:14.990 report claims so we'll leave it at that and i'll 00:21:14.990 --> 00:21:18.569 keep you up to date on whether the investigation 00:21:18.569 --> 00:21:21.059 from the independent Office of the Information 00:21:21.059 --> 00:21:24.819 Commissioner of Canada goes back to Global Affairs 00:21:24.819 --> 00:21:27.839 Canada and goes back to GSERF and says, where 00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:30.460 are these outcome indicators? Because we still 00:21:30.460 --> 00:21:34.539 don't see them. Thank you for listening and bye 00:21:34.539 --> 00:21:34.920 for now.