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You've made a very good point that when you look at the PMF, you're right.

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The type of community mobilization activities are listed in each country and then the percentage

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of women and men who are trained who actually do it are recorded over time.

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As the numbers go up, that shows they've actually done the leadership through community mobilization

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that demonstrates their leadership.

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Very good point, Yvonne.

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If you look at the performance measurement framework, they're all listed there.

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I would say that that's probably a good measure.

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We'll give that to them, yes, absolutely.

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You could argue that there's another group of women and men somewhere else in the country

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who don't get any training on leadership who are also mobilizing and promoting advancing

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gender equality and human rights.

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This is a fairly good start and they show the percentages.

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That's interesting, yes.

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We could argue that in this case, that outcome indicator is fairly good at measuring increased

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leadership because they actually track how many communities they've mobilized in these

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different ways.

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I sit corrected.

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It's not just attendance.

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They actually are measuring leadership skill in the PMF by listing these ways that they

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can mobilize communities, which is an indication this is how they've done and demonstrated

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their leadership.

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That's a good point.

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We'll say that for this indicator, out of the 20 outcome indicators, it's okay.

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Absolutely, and also pointing to other factors beyond the training that improves the capacity

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of men and women to actually take up leadership roles in carrying out community mobilization.

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I remember when sometime during the COVID-19 pandemic or before it, there was something

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that was happening in the United States.

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It was a Me Too movement against gender-based violence, sexual and gender-based violence.

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It was so huge that it had impact in suburban communities in West Africa.

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We had men and women who were not even in the United States, who were miles away.

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Just for the benefit of media, they had increased capacity.

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They were going into schools.

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They were going into town halls, talking to people about gender equality and gender-based

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violence.

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They did not need to get trained for it.

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But something happening somewhere else in the world just sparked off this passion and

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this needs to actually spread the message across.

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So I feel it's brilliant that they are training, but it's also important to note that there

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are other things that are happening and other factors that would also improve people's capacity

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to lead these initiatives.

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Right, and that's a medium.

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I'm wondering if in this project they actually introduced that as part of the training, how

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to use social media as a mechanism to promote gender equality.

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Be interesting to see if that was actually in there because they do have engagement,

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awareness raising campaigns.

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They may have used social media as a way to do that.

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Exactly, and storytelling spreads the message across the world.

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If you tell your stories well, people would pick lessons from it and the impact could

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be far greater for equities.

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Exactly, and again, the techniques are how to influence the duty bearers, especially

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as we're going to talk about in this last outcome.

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We're going to have a bit of fun with this one because we're going beyond evaluation,

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which is the focus of the podcast.

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We're going to get into a little bit of international development policy just for fun.

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That gets back to your point that in the end, you have to have these social media as a platform

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to influence, but the people in power have to be changed.

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In this last outcome, increased empowerment of women and girls for the advancement of

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gender equality in their communities.

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There are two indicators and we're both going to look at them.

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I'm going to start with the first one.

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Number of women and girls mobilized for the advancement of gender equality in their communities.

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Again, there need to be comparison groups to show that in areas where the project is

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not active, that those women felt empowered, mobilized also.

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Did the project actually increase mobilization at greater rates than where the project was

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not involved?

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Now they could come back and say, wait a sec, David, we're doing this at the country level.

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The whole country got our $18 million exposure.

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I don't know if there are even, but they do say target, don't they use the magic word

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targeted, you know, they say target countries.

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Maybe they're claiming for 18 million bucks, they've been able to blanket the entire country,

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all five of these countries with all these initiatives and trainings so that they could

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say, well, sorry, David, we can't have a comparison group because the whole country got it.

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It's not clear.

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That's one point.

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The other thing is, again, forget about the women and the girls.

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They were mobilized, but you want to go one step further.

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Did the duty bearers bring in any legislation that reflected this greater empowerment?

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So for example, duty bearers have reported that these women human rights organizations

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have improved their ability to influence them on advancing gender equality.

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So once again, you have to ask the duty bearers if they made any significant progress, even

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if they felt they were more empowered or more mobilized.

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So that's important.

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And what I'm going to introduce right here is the fact that the five countries they looked

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at Burkina Faso, Haiti, Kenya, Senegal, and Tanzania, according to the democracy index

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in 2023, none of them are democracies.

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But if you look at the 2023 Freedom House, three of them, Kenya, Senegal, Tanzania, they

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say are partly free.

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So it raises the issue of maybe they've picked the wrong five countries where they're not

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even democracies to begin with.

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And why don't we get into countries in Africa that are democracies and have made the turn

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where maybe they need help in getting to the next level, which is consolidating that democracy

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by advancing gender equality and human rights.

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Because if you don't, the country could regress.

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And there are five countries that are democracies, Botswana, Ghana, Lesotho, Namibia, South Africa.

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But that's a policy issue.

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But I just thought I'd bring it up.

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So I'll stop there and let you talk about the second.

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The outcome again is increased empowerment of women and girls for the advancement of

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gender equality in their communities.

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And you're looking at the other outcome indicator for that outcome.

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Yes, we're focusing on this one, which is the level of confidence on a four point scale

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of women and girls to advance gender equality in their communities.

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So first I'd say they trained men and women, but they're only checking for level of confidence

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of women and girls.

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And as much as we've checked about the democracy index for these countries, did we check their

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gender?

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What's the word for it?

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Gender perception.

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It's part of the cultural traits of this country.

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Some countries are more patriarchal in terms of the way they perceive things and the way

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they do things.

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Men lead actions.

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Yes.

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That's why, as the joke goes, dictator is two words.

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Yes.

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Absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah, definitely patriarchal.

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Yeah, because some of these countries are patriarchal.

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It doesn't matter how confident women and men, sorry, girls and women are about advancing

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gender equality.

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If they're not allowed to have a voice, if they're not allowed to sit at tables, if they

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would be persecuted for standing up in protests, then I'm not sure we're going to see verifiable

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or not verifiable.

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We're going to see far stretched impact of the trainings.

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But going beyond that, we need comparison groups.

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And this is, you mentioned something about them saying they used $18 million as a blanket

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cover for the whole, that they implemented the project in the whole country.

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But we have to remember that in implementing projects, you're dealing with people, especially

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if you're people centered and people have rights and choices.

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So if you present an opportunity for training on gender equality to a group of 20 people,

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it's not all 20 people that are going to say yes, that they want to participate or to be

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a beneficiary of your project for some not so specific reasons.

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Some people might say, no, I'm sorry, I would not be able to participate in your training.

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As much as I love women and girls and gender equality, I'm not going to be part of it.

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And so even within that same country, within Tanzania, you'd have people that say, no,

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who just decided that they don't want to be part of your training, part of the project?

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And so they can make up part of the comparison group.

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That's what I believe.

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And then if the confidence level rise, if the confidence levels rise, is that enough

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to be said that these women and girls have been empowered?

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Because my confidence level could have improved, but I might have a parent, maybe my father,

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if I was in one of these communities, my father could say, oh, I'm sorry, but I'm not going

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to let you go to this meeting.

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And there's nothing I can do about it, because that's the cultural structure that I live

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in.

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I can't just willfully stand up and do whatever I want to do.

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So there's still contextual and cultural factors that also determine the level of impact these

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confidence levels can create in their communities.

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And we talked about the democracy index, Burkina Faso, Haiti, Kenya, Senegal, Tanzania, and

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then we could talk about replacing them.

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And if...

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Well this is why we're getting at, we're sort of having fun here.

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We're not focusing on evaluation anymore.

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Now it's just a question of, should they have even decided the government of Canada to fund

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this project in those five countries for the reasons you've pointed out, that it's not

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a good focus.

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They should have focused on countries that actually have already become democratic, but

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need help in consolidating that democracy by getting gender equality with the people

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in power that are responsible for it, aware of what needs to be done to consolidate it.

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So there's no regression.

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They've already are prepared to go in that direction.

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True.

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And many, especially for example, while I was doing my dissertation at the University

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of East Anglia, I had the opportunity of visiting the World Bank database to collect data for

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my project.

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And there's actually something called the Gender Inequality Index for all countries

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in the world.

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That's right, UNDP.

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Yes.

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And the UNDP also publishes results for that.

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So that I would like to know if Equitas incorporated that information before coming up with these

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indicators and then choosing how they measured it.

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Do you get?

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Yeah.

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That's what I would like to know.

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Oh, yes.

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I'd like to know.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah, that's good.

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So, we're going to look at again, the outcome increased commitment of select women's organizations

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to engage duty bearers in dialogue on advancing gender equality in target countries.

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And you're looking at this indicator 1320B.

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Yes.

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And this is which the indicator here is the level of commitment of select women's organizations

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on a four point scale to engage duty bearers in dialogue on advancing gender equality.

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This is still going to be about self-reporting bias.

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If I was a leader of a women's organization and I have participated in some form of training

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or workshop under this project, I would say, yes, my level of commitment has improved.

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But there is no certainty that this would actively translate into my engagement with

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duty bearers.

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Also, we would need to ask the duty bearers instead of these women's organizations, if

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the women's organizations were good, were actually good at engaging with them on advancing

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gender equality.

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So going beyond, you know, checking for whether women's organizations are committed or not,

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we need to know, we need to ask the duty bearers, these women's organizations, you've met with

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them, you've had meetings with them, were they good?

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Did you feel your meeting was effective?

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Do you feel like you're more capable or equipped to advance gender equality in your own way?

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And then we have another output 1311, 1311, which provides, which trains them on how to

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engage the duty bearers.

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I feel David, you could talk more about that.

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Right.

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The other, and we've already addressed this in other indicators, but the next outcome

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is increased capacity of select women's organizations to engage duty bearers in better fulfilling

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their human rights obligations to advance gender equality in target countries.

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And again, the outcome indicator is level of perceived capacity of select women's organizations

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to engage duty bearers and fulfilling their human rights obligations to advance gender

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equality.

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And like before, perceived capacity of those they train is not a valid measure of technical

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capacity to engage.

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So that's straightforward there.

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The next one is increased opportunities for civil society organizations to collaborate

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on advancing gender equality at target countries.

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And you're, we're looking at that outcome indicator for that outcome.

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Yeah.

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And that's the number of opportunities available for civil society organizations to collaborate

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on advancing gender equality in target countries.

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And this is flawed in that it is only measured once a year with no comparison group.

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Yep.

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And increased opportunities could easily happen for reasons outside of the project.

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They need to find civil society organizations outside of the project who did not receive

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support from the project to see if those CSOs are also increasing their opportunities to

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advance gender equality without any support for the project.

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So this is basically a sublition.

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There's a technical word for it, but you understand what I'm saying, David.

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Thank you.

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Yes.

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Right.

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And the next outcome is increased capacity of women's and human rights organizations

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to carry out human rights education to advance gender equality.

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And the outcome indicator is percent of human rights educators, women, men, and others trained

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on human rights education to advance gender equality, transferring knowledge to women's

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and human rights organizations.

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And as we mentioned previously, it's the same issue.

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We're not interested in the transfer.

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As the outcome says, we want to know if their capacity to carry out that education has increased.

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So they shouldn't be asking the percentages transfer the knowledge, but do they actually

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have the ability to educate others?

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So forget the transfer, measure the percent of educators who passed the training.

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And they should also measure the technical capacity to educate of the women and human

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rights organizations since that is the outcome.

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So we're seeing quite a bit of a pattern here.

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Now the next one is, again, increased opportunities for women and or girls to participate in decision

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making process within local structures in target countries.

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And the other indicator for that.

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The indicator for this is the percentage of total women and or girls trained that are

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participating in decision making processes within local structures.

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And this is also going to fall under the self-reporting bias.

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Don't just ask the women or girls if they participated.

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Instead, we need to find the percentage of these women or girls who are sitting on legitimate

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decision making bodies and only those who have voting power in these local structures

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using external criteria.

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They should not or they could just be serving tea, taking minutes or doing other mundane

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tasks.

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They really need to know if they're actually in legitimate decision making bodies and they

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have the voting powers.

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And I would like to add to that an example and the country and the dictator will remain

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nameless.

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But there is a country in Africa where the dictator has appointed almost all of the members

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of parliament to be women.

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So he raises his hands and says, look, you in, I am scoring the best on the gender index.

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The 100% of the assembly is women.

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But guess what?

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The women have no power, but they're there and they show up.

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But it's kind of like a what do you call it?

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I can't remember the term, but it's a rubber stamp parliament.

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They have no power.

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That's no sufficient.

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The power is all coming out of the out of the dictator's office.

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So this is another example where it's brilliant, you know, where he's he's he has appointed

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all these women.

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And technically, if you follow the Jezzi score, I think it's called the gender empowerment.

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She still has it.

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They would score perfect because women are 100% representing the parliament.

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But guess what?

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The parliament has no power.

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That's not that's not sufficient.

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So I think, yeah, no, no, far from it.

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And he's actually following the rules of the index, doing very well on the index.

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But you have to take a closer look.

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And the last one we've got here is enhanced collaboration among women and human rights

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organizations to advance human rights in their countries.

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And I have here the indicator number of collaborative initiatives among women's and human rights

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organizations to advance human rights in their country, which again, is good.

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It's an indication that as the initiatives increase, collaboration is going to improve,

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which is good.

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But again, they need to more clearly define collaborative initiative so that they can

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claim that the those initiatives have indeed increased.

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And they measure it only at once at baseline and once at the end line.

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So again, you could argue that these initiatives could go up in the middle of the project with

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nothing related to what the project activities are.

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If they're only measuring it once at the beginning and once at the end.

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Although it's a fairly good indicator, it's just the measurement again is not very frequent.

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And again, we don't know with no comparison groups if this could have happened anyways.

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Collaborative initiatives increasing over time in the country with even without the

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project, we just don't know.

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So more frequent measurement or find me a comparison group and then they can say the

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initiatives or the activities in our project were contributed to the increase in the

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collaboration initiatives over time.

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And I think there is one more indicate increased leadership of women and men in community mobilization

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activities that advance gender equality in target countries.

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And I think we had talked about this, you had noticed that now we have a better idea

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that the type of community mobilize act mobilization activities is connected to the other indicator,

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the percent of total women and men that actually go about doing it.

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Right.

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Yes.

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Right.

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So that's covered.

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And that is where we thought both A and B combined those indicators percent of total

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women and men trained demonstrating leadership is supported by the second indicator, which

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is the type of community mobilize act mobilization activities, demonstrating leadership that

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they actually did.

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So we believe that's a good indicator.

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Yes.

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So that concludes our review of the outcome indicators.

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And I would still conclude that the outcome indicators do not adequately measure the achievement

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of the outcomes and that equitous cannot conclude that they have achieved their outcomes in

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this project.

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What do you think?

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I agree with you.

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However, I would absolutely love to hear more from them if the opportunity avails itself.

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Thank you.

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Exactly right.

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So thank you, Yvonne, for your input.

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Greatly appreciate it.

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We will what we'll do now is take this part two and send it to the Minister for International

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Development as well as the shadow critics from the Conservative Party, the New Democratic

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Party, the Bloc Québécois critics of international development, the shadow critics, because we

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believe regardless of your political affiliation, it's important that the four to five billion

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dollars that taxpayers in Canada spend on these services in developing countries needs

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to be properly evaluated.

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And we believe or at least I believe that that is not happening and it needs to happen.

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So we'll do that and build the evidence that shows that they need to improve on proper

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evaluation and we'll take it from there.

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Okay.

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Thank you, Yvonne.

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And stay tuned for episode eight in about a couple of weeks.

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Thank you, everyone.

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Thank you, Yvonne.

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Bye for now.

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And it's so weird.

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Do I need to?

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Are you still there?

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Are you you're gone?

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Okay.