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Keep it 100!
Hey everyone, welcome to another episode
of Keep It 100 with Sean and Christa Smith.
Hey, what's going on everybody?
Hey, we're always honored
when the Keep It 100 tribe joins us.
Thanks for taking time out of your day listening.
We're just really excited with these continued conversations
as our heart really is to disciple, to inspire,
to empower you in your walk with God.
Yes, and we really feel like we've heard so much feedback
from so many people that they look forward
to our bi-weekly podcast.
That this is something that they really feed upon
and different ones.
It really blessed us that at the end of the year
it was their most listened to podcast.
So excited.
So please continually just keep the word up for us,
tell people about it, listen, list people
to the Keep It 100 tribe.
We sure appreciate it.
And we're excited about this episode
because we're gonna talk about the beauty of truth
and we all know that truth is a person, is Jesus.
So we talked about the beauty of truth.
We're talking about the beauty of Jesus.
And it's so important.
But before we get into that,
Christa and I this past weekend,
we were up in the Pacific Northwest.
The first night we flew in on Friday,
Christa spoke Friday night to women,
then I spoke Saturday morning to men,
then I spoke Saturday night at an all church
kind of encounter service.
And then Christa spoke Sunday morning
to the all church Sunday morning,
but it was really also an encounter.
So it was a phenomenal time.
Our great friends up there and it's so cool
because the pastor, John Hammers on this episode,
he's gonna, we're gonna introduce him in just a little bit,
but we're, it was such a powerful time.
We saw God do so much stuff.
What was your favorite aspect of the encounter weekend
up in Everett, Washington?
You know what, probably two things if I can pull it in.
You know, I think whenever I get the opportunity
to be with women and call forth women into their destiny,
that's always, always, it's an honor, right?
I preached on Anna.
I've never preached on Anna before.
And I felt like God was saying a specific prophetic word
over the house.
That's always a privilege to release that.
But then I'll say there was two other things
that I just thought were really special.
Number one, I came in the next morning,
you were doing the men's and I was having coffee with Noma,
dear friend of mine who's up there and she was hosting us.
And we walked in at the end of your session
and there was such a sweet presence of the Lord.
I literally felt like crying as soon as I walked
in the sanctuary.
There was this beautiful presence of the Lord
where men were just ministering to one another,
getting free, encountering Jesus.
And it was just sweet and deep.
So I just kind of hung in the back
and I just basked in the presence of God.
And it was really beautiful.
It was just a sweet time in God's presence.
And then number three, I preached on Sunday morning
and I just went for it.
Just release a word,
call them to a place of revival for the Northwest
and I really felt God on it.
And I felt like I saw the church step into a deeper place
of freedom and breakthrough.
And so when I see a house and a church go,
you know what, we're going there.
Like there was such a hunger and such a intentionality
about the gathering on Sunday.
So I know I said three things you asked for one,
but hopefully I was quick on that.
But it was just, it was super powerful.
So there's probably my top three.
What about you?
You know, all I have to do is it's kind of a tie.
And one of them you hit upon is just seeing the men
surrender themselves to God.
We talked about purity.
We talked about appetites and obviously contrasting
unrighteous appetites from righteous appetites.
And so these men came in, they were just honest
and we called men to purity and men got really honest
and repented of areas.
And so it was just so honest, just so awesome to see that.
And then my other highlight was Saturday night,
we just flow together.
I always love when we flow together,
you were prophesying over people,
I'll get words of knowledge for people
where we were seeing people just get free,
people get breakthroughs, people get healed.
And it's always cool to go back and forth.
And we always get great compliments
and obviously all glory to God,
but just people love the way we flow together.
And so I never take that for granted.
I always love that when we get a chance to flow together.
So those are kind of tied for my top two spots.
I love that baby.
I know when I minister with you,
there is a synergy that we hit that's just different
than if I'm by myself.
And I've seen you move powerfully by yourself,
but it's just, and we can each move with the Lord
and it's really beautiful,
but there's something about husband and wife together
that really is special.
So that's always such a joy to do that with you.
I love that.
I'm excited about this episode.
Me too.
We're talking about one of my favorite things
and it's the beauty of Jesus
and it's the adoration of his beauty
and that he's so worthy, right?
Yes, yes.
And when you get a glimpse of Jesus
and you encounter his, the glory and the beauty
and the splendor of God has a major impact
on who you are, how you see the world
and how you see Jesus.
Yes, and I would even throw in there
how you influence the world around you.
True.
Because it's so important.
So before we get to the interview
and conversation with Pastor John Hammer,
maybe we should just ask a question, why beauty?
Why are we talking about beauty?
Why is beauty important to a person's faith?
So let me throw that out to you.
Let's just throw out some thoughts.
Why do you think beauty is important?
You know, for me, I am a beauty person.
I always have been always well-been.
I remember I received a prophetic word.
It was probably in my late 20s
and it's probably to date one of my favorite prophetic words
I've ever received and it was from now a dear friend
but at the time I didn't know him.
And he prophesied over me, he says,
you are a woman of beauty and you bring beauty wherever you go
and God has designed you that way.
And I had never realized that my desire for beauty
and my desire for creation and the world,
the atmosphere even in my home being beautiful
actually was a reflection of how God made me to be.
And it's actually really, really important to me
because it's how God has made me wired to see beauty
through him, right?
So why beauty?
I think the truth is humanity is moved by beauty.
Aesthetically, we're moved by beautiful music,
beautiful paintings, beautiful images.
You know, that's why I think so many times
some of those people love great photography
on social media or a great design.
Or, you know, that's why fashion is fashion
because it's more than clothes.
It's an expression, there's beauty to it.
It's personality, it's creativity, it's artistry.
And we love that.
We respond to beauty because we were created to admire
and adore beauty, right?
So instinctually how we're created and God created this
in his image is to be drawn to beauty.
And so I think it's a natural, it's not a shallow thing.
And I think a lot of times in the world, in the church
we can view it as shallow, but it's actually
who we're created to be.
And I think it's interesting that three times in scripture
it mentions that holiness, which is a primary attribute
of God, is considered beautiful, right?
So one of the scriptures, and it says,
oh, worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness.
We also can read Psalm 29, too, Psalm 96, nine,
you know, reading about the beauty of God,
which is the holiness of the Lord.
And we see that the holiness is beautiful.
And so there's a beauty element to who God is,
but for us to see him as such, but also the creation
of the world.
I mean, you know this about me.
One of my favorite things is the moon.
I love the moon.
I love a good sunset.
I love a good sunrise, but I really love a good sunset.
And the sky, and you know, God is the ultimate artist.
And he is, he's creating masterpieces all around us
all the time.
So when we take time to bask in the beauty
of God's creation, we're basking in the beauty of God.
And I think there is a natural and eight desire within us
to adore, but also revel and bask in beauty.
And it's actually God and it's biblical.
I love what you're saying.
You're essentially saying God created us,
if you will, with a beauty appreciation chip.
It's in our DNA.
That aesthetically, I heard you say,
we are created to be moved by that.
And that's the reason why we gravitate towards that.
I love that.
I would even add on there why beauty is important,
is that I think really at the end of the day,
that truth has a hard time making its way
to the heart of humanity without beauty.
I think that's why the gospel message, the story,
and I say the gospel message,
I'm really just talking about the do's and don'ts.
I'm talking about God sending his only son,
dying on a cross, taking the sins,
resurrecting when you look at Jesus with touch lepers,
and Jesus with hill blind people,
and raise this woman's son, widow of names,
son from the dead.
I think the reason why the gospel is written,
the way it is, it's full of beauty.
And I feel like even as ministers, even as the church,
we have to make sure that part of the way God designed truth
to make it into people's hearts is the beauty of it.
That doesn't mean that we're not talking
about the demands of the gospel.
That doesn't mean we don't call people to repentance.
That doesn't mean that we don't get down
with the harsh reality of, you know,
the Bible talks about judgment to come
and all those things,
but that we've got to present that aspect
because we have the greatest story ever told.
It was actually a movie called the greatest story ever told.
It's about Jesus.
And so I think that those things are so important
because we live in a world that has a beauty deficit
and we have to acknowledge that we live in the presence
of not just beautiful stuff in the world,
but ugly stuff in the world,
decaying stuff in the world, the crass, the hideous,
the evil, the stuff that just is repulsive.
The world is full of disharmony and disintegration.
And so when we're able to bring out that glory
in the story, I think another reason why we would say
that beauty is so important is that beauty
is what clothes the gospel clothes,
as in you put on clothes, it clothes the gospel message
in a way that makes it attractive.
You know, and honestly, I think if we really understand
the essence and the biblical truth of beauty
is we really have not prized his beauty, God's beauty,
with anything like the fervor it really deserves.
I mean, if you look at Isaiah six
and you think about angels going around the throne of God
and they're declaring it again and again,
holy, holy, holy, which I established previously,
that holiness is beautiful, right?
We read that in Psalms and we read that
in various portions of scripture.
And it's like basically the angels are saying,
beautiful, beautiful, beautiful, are you?
And if we understand that celestial beings, angels
are declaring for eternity the beauty of God
over and over and over, we do not have a full comprehension
of the beauty of his majesty, the beauty of his glory,
the beauty of his presence.
And I think we so compare our earthly examples
and we project that as to the definition of beauty.
But we all know what's beautiful here on earth,
doesn't even come close, doesn't even compare.
That's man's version and here's the truth,
much of what's in the world isn't even actually beautiful.
What the world defines as beautiful
isn't defined as beautiful in heaven,
it's often defined as vulgar or offensive
to the things of God, right?
So the world cannot create the definition of beauty,
only the beautiful one can create the definition of beautiful.
I think this is something God has invited us to unpack
throughout our faith walk with him.
It's not something we just instantly understand.
I think it's through our journey in walking and loving
and worshiping and adoring the King of Kings, the great I am.
We begin to have a small understanding of the beauty
and the vastness and the depth of God's beauty.
Yes, I think that's so true
because the point you're aiming at is not everything
on the planet is beautiful is truly eternally beautiful.
Obviously Eve in the garden saw that the fruit was beautiful
to the eye, good to the eye, but that was hellacious.
You know, in terms of once you bit it, we bit the dust.
And I tweeted this on Twitter,
because I think it's so important.
I said, it is essential that we become fascinated,
gripped and captivated by the beauty of the Lord.
If not, we will struggle with boredom
and our hearts will be vulnerable to pursue other things.
So I think that's what you're saying
is that we will pursue inferior, quote unquote, beauty
and sacrifice the greater eternal beauty
if we're not careful.
I love that.
I have 100 tribe right now.
We're going to step into a conversation
that I had with Pastor John Hammer.
He pastors Sunrise Christian Center up in Everett, Washington.
And we talk about the beauty of truth
and the beauty of Jesus.
Check this conversation out.
I think you're going to enjoy it.
Hey, keep your 100 tribe.
I've got one of my great friends on
Pastor of Sunrise Christian Center
up in Everett, Washington, John Hammer.
We were just with you, John.
So good to have you on the podcast, bro.
Oh, man, it's great to be with you guys.
My wife, Grace and I, and our whole church,
we were rocked as you and Christa came and ministered.
So good to see you back to back.
Hey, come on, man.
I think we switched weather, dude.
I was up there with you guys.
You had sun.
It was clear.
It was nice.
I came back home to almost record rains, floodings.
Man, it is awesome.
One thing, our people 100 tribe, they love this segment
and this part.
So John, why don't you give us something about your origin
story, man?
What has God done in you that has put this fire,
this passion, this visionary, you know,
cross obsession inside of you that I love dearly, man?
Yeah.
Well, I grew up in a really good home.
My parents, my dad was radically saved as kind of a hippie drug
user, and then he became an evangelist that
saw signs, wonders and miracles.
And my mom got saved before they were married.
And it just, it got into a supernatural thing
in their lives.
And so I grew up in a minister's, pastor's home.
And when I was growing up, I had a really horrible addiction
to pornography through my middle school, high school,
and early college years.
And I had a real radical encounter with the Lord one
night when I went out to look for some things I shouldn't
have gone to look for.
And I was in my parents' basement.
I was in community college.
I wasn't a little, I was a little uncertain about my future
at 20 years old.
And anyhow, I had a radical encounter with the Lord that
night.
I went to my dad.
It's a dad I've really been struggling and hiding things.
I needed to pray for me.
Within that first month, we had a few times of prayer.
And I was miraculously delivered out of my life,
out of my addiction.
I learned about the power of confession of sin.
And I really just got lit on fire for Jesus.
I started going to church every chance
I could getting in prayer meetings with older saints,
with young people.
If a church's doors was open or they
weren't having a conference, I'm like, I need Jesus.
And so there was this fire lit in me to really pursue the Lord.
And I was at this big conference.
And this church was having in our area.
The guest speaker was Marilyn Hickey.
And she was like, there's going to be this big prayer line
we're going to do at the end.
They didn't call it a fire tunnel,
but it was a similar type thing where all the leaders
and pastors and ministers were going to come make this big tunnel.
And you're just to ask God for one miracle that night,
or one answer to prayer.
What's the one big thing you need from the Lord?
And so they were doing like this long,
it was like maybe 1,000 people there, maybe 1,500 people there.
So it was and they started on the opposite side of the room
from where we were seated.
So it was like this big line.
So it was going to take a while.
So the guys I was with, they leaned over to me and they said,
hey, what are you going to ask God for tonight?
And I'm like, I don't know.
I was kind of drawn a blank.
And one of them said, I know what you're
supposed to ask the Lord for.
And I said, what's that?
And he said, you're supposed to ask God for the mantle that's
on your dad's life, which in the Bible is a prophetic.
The prophet Elijah had a mantle that represented not,
it wasn't just like a cloak, right?
But it represented his anointing, his history with God,
his calling, his authority.
It was a sign of his spiritual authority, right?
And so he said, you're supposed to ask the,
for the mantle that's on your dad's life to fall into your life.
You're called into the ministry like he is.
And my other friend leaned over to me and said, that's right.
That's what you're supposed to ask God for.
You're supposed to ask him for this mantle.
It'll be like from Elijah to Elisha.
It'll be a double portion of what your dad walks in.
And so I doubled over, bawling my eyes out.
I had this major God encounter.
I go from like, I don't know what to ask God for,
to like, oh, and it just ugly cry.
And I got home late that night.
I was still living with my parents,
finishing up community college around this time,
or maybe I had just finished
and I was on a little bit of a break to figure out
what a bachelor's degree would look like or whatever.
And I ran to my dad.
It's worked the next day after I got worked
to his office at the church.
And I said, dad, I need to tell you about what happened
last night and I'm emotional.
I start crying.
I'm barely getting the story out.
And my dad reads through the Bible,
two chapters in the Old Testament,
one chapter in the New Testament every day.
He's done it for like 30, 40 years,
a long time of his Christian walk.
And so he goes, guess what my Bible reading
was this morning in the Old Testament?
It was a story in Second Kings about Elijah
being carried to heaven and throwing his mantle on Elisha.
And Elisha receiving a double portion
of his mentor, spiritual father.
And he's like, son, the Lord is saying,
yes, you are called into the ministry.
Cause up until that point, he had never told me,
like you're a preacher, you're a minister,
you need to do what I do or anything like that.
And he probably knew I would probably rebel
if it was pressure on me, you know, he's wise, wise father.
And so anyhow, I knew though that meant going to the ministry.
So I went to Seattle Bible college, I got trained,
started in youth ministry, started doing conferences,
internships, evangelism, youth ministry,
a combination of things over the years.
And then eventually it turned to where the elders
and our parents felt like the Lord was saying that, you know,
we believe you and grace will be the next lead pastors
of the church.
So pray about it.
And so for five years,
just in time for COVID, a year before that,
we got installed as lead pastors.
And so we've been on that journey of leading our church
and seeing God do some great things throughout the last five
years, especially in the last year and a half,
we've been seeing an incredible move of the Holy spirit.
And I know you guys have been here a couple of times.
Yes.
Time frame, you and Christa.
And so we're in for the ride
and the adventure of following Jesus.
Oh, I love that.
It's a church advance.
Yes.
You know, and I'll just say this too, John,
number one, you care a unique fire, man.
And I kind of want to talk about that a little bit more.
Seriously, I'm inspired by it.
And at your church, I'm amazed because of how many men
hit the altar.
A lot of times in churches, the ladies will hit the altar.
But unique thing is sunrise is how many men hit the altar
and linger.
You just don't see that.
I really think that's a sign of a move of God.
And, you know, maybe even later on,
you can talk about that.
Why do you think that so many people that were raised
in good Christian families, why do you
think that there's such a struggle, a battle?
Why do you think there's such a big target on that generation
that comes up in Christian homes?
I know there are a lot of people that they've
got sons and daughters that are protocols,
that are deconstructing, that are addicted bound,
just denying their faith.
And why do you think there's such a struggle
on a battle in that area?
Yeah.
I mean, everything's about the family, you know,
in the word of God.
The first institution God created was marriage and family.
Before, I mean, he always had the church in mind.
The church was the eternal plan of God.
But he started with family, right, as the paradigm.
And so Satan attacks the seed.
He attacks the family.
He attacks the generations.
The dragon at Revelation 12 is sitting
at the foot of the woman who's about to give birth to the child,
right?
So it's always an attack after the young,
after our seed, after our offspring.
And I think it's a war over generational blessing.
Because if you can start creating, I guess,
normalcy in a good sense of like, hey, we serve the Lord.
We walk with Jesus.
We walk in His ways.
We are righteous.
Yes, all of our children need to be redeemed
and have their own saving faith.
But our kids grow up thinking that God answering prayer
is normal, that following the ways of Scripture
are normal and fruitful and blessed.
And my parents painted a very attractive view of Christianity.
I didn't want to do ministry because I
thought I could make a lot more money.
And I see all the suffering my parents put up
within the ministry.
But it was never because of their hypocrisy
or them speaking negatively about the ministry.
But I saw them love people that hurt them.
I saw them stay faithful to their marriage vows.
I saw them weep over people, even people that mistreated them
or were making horrible choices.
I saw them tithe and give offerings.
I saw them pray in vacations, pray in money
for extra clothes or extra things.
And it's not like we were poor or anything.
But I just saw a life of faithfulness.
And they're not perfect.
We're not.
We were a perfect family.
Grace and I have four kids.
We're not perfect parents.
But we're, by the grace of God, I
think modeling that and living out your faith
and not one version on Sunday, different version in the home,
that's how we grew up.
Their life is attractive.
They're fun.
I think that's one thing that maybe our home, we prayed
and read the Bible regularly and that stuff.
But my dad wrestled with us.
He tickled us.
He made lame dad jokes.
They spent time with us.
They were involved in our sports.
They're real people.
They like to watch movies.
They like to go have fun.
So I can't imagine a more attractive life
than somebody that loves their spouse, loves life,
loves their kids, trusts God, has integrity,
says they're sorry when they screw up.
And but there is a war because there's
such a blessing that comes from the generations being united.
Like I think my dad, he grew up in an addictive
environment.
My grandpa turned to alcoholism because he lost my dad's.
He lost his wife to a car accident.
My dad was a little boy and his mom died in a tragic car
accident.
And so my grandpa, who was very successful psychologist,
he was decorated in the military and in all the who's who lists.
And he was a mayor of one of the Seattle suburbs,
one of the first mayors of the town.
Anyway, very influential man.
He turned to alcoholism.
So anyway, my dad was very broken.
So he got radically saved and set on fire for Jesus.
Their first generation pioneers, and you
have all these great miracles, right?
But it seems like there's a battle over that next generation
establishing their own story, their own faith.
You're right.
And that's so accurate.
And you so nailed something.
I think there's this thing that if you
have to start all over again, it's
like if you can stop that blessings that you think of it
as a generational snowball, the enemy
is after the momentum of blessing
the synergistic exponential impact of when, like you said,
a father and a son, a mother and a daughter, generation
after generation after generations
begin to walk with the Lord.
It's like in some respects, our kids
have to forge their own walk with God.
But you see kids that are raised in homes of people
that are artistically gifted.
You refer to them as prodigies.
They were raised in a concert pianist's home.
They were raised.
Their dad played in the NBA.
Steph Curry, you're rebound for his dad and Vince Carter
when he was up in Toronto.
And so that just causes that exposure at such a young age
to foment a trajectory.
And there's so many different things about it, man.
That's profound.
Hey, John, let me throw another question at you.
We were having a conversation in the car
and almost wish we could have done the equivalent of car
karaoke, man.
It blew up.
I got so ignited.
You mentioned this phrase that I have not
been able to let go of.
You talked about this phrase, the beauty of truth.
And I feel like the word beauty.
And if you look at beauty and aesthetics,
how much that is huge in this generation.
Obviously, we can see it on a sunset.
We could see it at a full moon or a half moon
or whatever at night.
You could see it looking over the landscape of the city.
But this generation is drawn to art.
They're drawn.
You look at even the social media
and what gets kind of the clicks apart from the crazy things
is this aesthetic attraction.
We're all built by God.
If you will, there's this DNA chip
within us to have this fascination with beauty,
because God himself is beautiful.
I think one of the early church fathers,
they talked about kind of this aspect of beauty,
of being all of it fitting together.
I thought that was a unique terminology.
It all fit.
And I think of just how God brings so many great things
together, mercy and justice and truth and love.
But it just fits together so well.
So man, talk to us about this whole aspect
of the beauty of truth.
Yeah.
The more I study the scriptures and then
reading some of the church fathers, church history
is seeing that there's a meta narrative, I guess,
like the big work or like the telos is like philosophers.
Like what's the primary idea?
The main, the summum bonum or all these things.
Like what is the main thing?
What is the main thing that all of history,
that what is the highest ideal?
And in Greek philosophy, there was this idea of the logos.
And even studying like John 1, 1 for Christmas
and the incarnation this last year,
like in the beginning was the word and the word was God
and the word was with God.
And so there's this idea of Jesus is the logos, the word.
But I guess sometimes I thought of, well,
he's the expression of the Bible and that is absolutely true.
But also in Greek philosophy, there was the idea
that the logos was like the highest ideal,
that everything in all of life and philosophy,
truth, beauty, the world, the way it all works together.
There's some logos, there's some ideal
that philosophers were grasping for.
So it's possible that John was not just necessarily saying
that Jesus is a manifestation of the Bible,
although we see that later in John 5,
that Jesus is the manifestation of truth of the word,
but then also he could have been appealing
to the hearts of the philosophers
and like the prevailing ideas is that Jesus is the highest ideal.
He is God, he is the beginning.
And so the early fathers called Jesus the word a lot
and they call him the logo salat.
And even maybe more than they call him,
I mean, they call him the son of God,
they call him the different names that we see in scripture,
but they call him the logo salat.
So just as I've studied the scripture
and just different things at different times in my life,
it feels like you have these different epiphanies
or these eye-opening God encounters
and you're like, wow, that's incredible.
And so even in my own story,
like seeing Jesus as the interpretive key to the scriptures
and to the greater meaning of life.
And I guess to me, like the beauty of truth
is about understanding who Jesus is,
that the highest ideal in all,
in God's grand plan of creation and design
and the future for us,
it's all wrapped up into who Jesus is
and him coming, him living, him dying, him raising,
and him returning and then God's invitation
to make humanity share in his nature and become like him.
So understanding who Jesus is is like,
I want Morgan Freeman to be the narrator for my life story.
I wish he could have the, like we over my shoulder
and be like, today, John is going to,
you just wanna have that deep, like that beautiful voice.
And there's this soundtrack, right?
There's this beautiful score in a movie that just moves.
Like you watch a movie clip without the music
in the background, without the symphony
or the, maybe it's electronic score, whatever it is,
but like the music moves you
and there's this connection to the story.
And to me, it's like understanding who Jesus is,
not just like, oh yeah, this guy that,
yeah, he's God, he died on the cross.
Not just believing the basics of who he is,
although that's super important,
but really understanding that Christ is the key
to really unlocking everything.
He's the highest ideal in all creation.
He's the name that's above every name.
And so what started to take root in me was,
I interpreted the scripture more through my own pain,
my own story, even after I got set free from pornography,
I had a lot of self-hatred and shame that had to unravel.
And I actually got in a big argument with my dad one day.
So I get in this big debate with my dad, like,
I'm gonna quit, I'm just gonna try to like go to church
and hopefully make it to heaven when I die.
But what if I fall in sin again?
What if I get back in porn?
Look at all these pastors falling morally.
It's not gonna work out for me.
Why am I even trying?
I'm just gonna screw everything up again.
And so my dad, I'm getting kind of heated.
Like I'm done with this, I'm gonna quit.
And he's like, son, do you believe that the blood
of Jesus is enough for you to be forgiven and free
of all your sin?
Or do you still think there's something else you have to do?
And I go, there's gotta be something else.
And as soon as I said that, I was like, oh no,
I just said there's something more powerful
than the blood of Jesus that somehow I can do.
That's the wrong answer.
Like I failed the Bible, I failed every test.
Like, you know, but it exposed in that moment,
the lie that I believed that I could perform
or I could do some ritual or I could repent the right way.
Or I mean, I had so many deliverance sessions,
inner healing prayer, prayer counselors, pastors I talked to.
I was obsessive about dealing with my shame and my past
and making sure there was no demons left.
There was no, you know, curses left.
And I think the Lord honored my sincerity,
but I got over obsessed with me.
And then something changed in that moment
where I started to realize, I've gotta see this thing,
my life, I've gotta see the scripture.
I've gotta see it through Jesus.
Like the curses, the penalties, the warnings,
these are all showing me the problem.
Jesus is the solution.
He's the answer and not in like a patronizing way
or like the cheap Sunday school answer, like, you know,
oh, there's a little fluffy squirrel.
What do you call that kids?
Oh, you know, I think it's a squirrel,
but I feel like I'm supposed to say Jesus in church.
You know, like, we've almost mocked that Jesus
is like always the answer, you know,
but it's like, no, but actually at the core of everything.
So anyway, try to, let me see if I can bring this
around the beauty of truth.
So as I got obsessed with seeing Jesus through the scripture
and I get these key infusions of truth,
like one of my Bible school teachers
that was an evangelist in Canada,
an amazing Bible teacher,
and he taught and spoke and prayed in King James English,
but his spirit filled man, Brother Cornish,
he would tell us wherever you cut the book,
it bleeds the atoning blood.
Wherever you cut the book, it bleeds the atoning blood.
He's like, you find Christ.
And then like my dad would tell me about this contemporary
that my parents used to host in their home.
He was an evangelist, a contemporary of Smith Wigglesworth.
But he would come and stay in my parents' home
because my mom was a good cook.
And so I never heard this sermon because I was little,
but like these things stuck with me
that has become, I think, a part of my life message
or my obsession, you know,
is he would preach a sermon in three parts.
The cry of the Old Testament is where is the Lamb of God?
The cry between the Testaments from John the Baptist
is behold the Lamb of God.
And the cry of the New Testament is worthy,
is the Lamb of God.
And he would summarize the entire Old and New Testaments.
He would do the whole grand narrative of Scripture
as three movements of where is the Lamb,
behold the Lamb, and worthy is the Lamb.
And so one day I'm reading Revelation 13,
and it says that Jesus is the Lamb slain
before the foundation of the world.
First Peter chapter one says the same thing basically,
that Jesus who was slain for us
before the foundation of the world.
And it starts dawning on me.
Like the first creative act of God is actually not
necessarily let there be light
unless it was all happening simultaneously in a sense.
But the foundational act of God was,
I'm gonna have to insert myself.
God the Son is gonna have to insert himself as the Lamb,
is gonna have to become the incarnate Lamb
who is slain for his own creation.
So you start realizing there's this beauty to truth
and there's this grand story that's, you know,
you get to the very end and revelation of the Bible,
but it tells us about the very beginning.
At the foundation of everything is a story.
God decided that this beautiful story of redemption.
So our world is actually built
on the self-sacrificial love of God himself,
coming to die for us as the Lamb who's slain.
So as soon as the story starts unfolding in Genesis
and mankind sins, we see God's provision
to cover Adam and Eve with these garments.
And even right before that, that he prophesies,
God prophesies, the scripture prophesies
that there is a seed that is coming, you know,
that's gonna crush the head of the serpent.
And so there's a redeemer, there's a seed coming,
born of woman.
And so we start seeing this narrative starts unfolding
early in Genesis of this idea of a sacrificial offering,
of a need for cleansing, a need for a sacrifice,
and God starts preparing us for this reality
that Jesus is gonna come
and he's going to be the sacrificial lamb for us,
for our sin.
And so everything's built on this idea
of Christ suffering on the cross.
And so of course, ultimately the cross
is the full manifestation of his suffering for us,
this Godless, horrible act, but yet it's beautiful.
Like Christians love the cross.
We see the beauty, the meaning, the forgiveness, the hope,
but we forget because we're 2000 years removed, you know,
from when crucifixion was very popular in the Roman Empire,
how brutal and ugly it is.
But the reason that we could look at a painting of Jesus
on a cross or something and we could weep
and we could be very moved by the beauty of his sacrifice
for us, it just shows you how significant in history,
cosmos, universe, altering the sacrifice
of the lamb of God is for us.
Because we see beauty out of something that's torture,
you know, and that's what he came to do.
He came to redeem our brutality.
So he being the exalted son of God, you know,
pre-existent as God, before he was born to the Virgin Mary,
it becomes manifest in the flesh for us.
And so his humiliation, his becoming human for us
was to lead to our exaltation.
And then we've got all these promises in the scripture
of like, wow, as he is, so are we in this world.
First John also says that one day we will be like him,
for we will see him as he is.
And Paul says in Romans 8, those that he justified,
he has sanctified and he is also glorified.
But yet he's telling us he's sharing his divine nature
with us in one of Peter's epistles,
according to these promises, that we're gonna become
like him when we see him, that we're gonna be glorified.
And it's already done in God's economy.
It's already, it's like a past tense.
You've been glorified, but we know it's a future reality
for us.
So it all started with the sacrifice of the lamb
and his vision for humanity, and for those who are redeemed
and trust in Christ, is to one day become like him.
And of course, to become his bride
and to become joined to him forever.
But we're to become like him in the life to come.
And so it's like, this is the whole story we're caught up in.
Humanity's moving toward, that's why I was like,
understanding who Jesus is becomes the key for the scriptures,
but also becomes the key to me for the meaning of my life
and why I go through suffering and glory.
Why I go through death and resurrection.
Why I lose my life to find my life.
It's like, so it's brought such deep comfort to me
and nearness, but I've learned to meditate on truth
and understand that the scripture is trying to reveal Jesus
to me as according to John five, that's the chief purpose.
That's what Jesus said the chief purpose of scripture was
when he was speaking to the religious leaders.
You search the scriptures because in them
you think that you have life.
The scriptures testify of me, Jesus said,
but you weren't willing to come to me to have life in my name.
And so we're, as we look through the word,
I found I encounter Jesus through the word.
I encounter him through the beauty of truth
and I find meaning and I don't want to lose this simplicity
of just loving him and always getting caught up
necessarily in deep philosophy or theology.
Now everybody has to become a theologian or whatever,
but we do need to recover, I think, the beauty of truth.
And we need to find, we need to start telling the stories,
the narrative of scripture and as preachers
and teachers of the word to let people give them,
feed them stuff that will cause them to hunger and long
to know Jesus more.
And because as we get in this book
and we encounter the God of the word, as we read the word,
there's, I don't know, I just, I feel like some days
it's like there's a soundtrack that I'm running on
and I'm like, this is it.
This is what I was made for.
This is what I was made to bring him glory
and to be with him forever and ever.
And then to invite everybody else in on that journey
that they might know him and become like him.
So anyway, I could just keep going.
Man, that was so profound.
I was impacted on so many levels of what you're saying.
And I think, you know, when Paul wrote that letter
and that phrase into the church of Corinth,
and he says, I'm afraid as Eve was beguiled
by the serpent, so you two are being led astray
from a pure and simple devotion to Christ.
And I love because what you're talking is
you're calling us back, you're calling a church,
you're calling the listeners, you're calling people
who follow Christ back to the one we really follow.
You know, that verse that says,
he is fairer than the sons of men.
And I think in today's age, our aesthetics
are like very low level.
Like it's the lowest hanging fruit.
We think that if a person has symmetry
or they got a couple extra muscles on their body
or more curves, that that is beauty.
And we don't realize it that really the altogether
otherness, the characteristics,
that the very essence of Jesus' glory is beautiful.
And he's glorious.
You know, there's a weight, there's an attraction.
You know, in the natural, the Bible would even give
the impression that in the natural,
there was nothing that seemed in the physical
appearance of Jesus to stand out.
Like there's nothing about him that made him like,
whoa, this student is gonna be 2024's most sexiest man.
You know, obviously the context of history,
but yet there had to be something so fascinating
about his eyes.
I just think when he could look at a hardened tax collector,
Matthew, for instance, you just say two words, follow me.
And the dude quit what he's doing and followed Jesus.
I thought, what was the look in his eyes
when he could walk up on the boat?
Obviously he did the miracle of the incredible catch,
but still these fishermen, and I think you brought up
the point that they followed him not after the bad night
and okay, business is not going good,
it's time for me to move on.
They had the best catch of their life
and they left it and went and followed Jesus.
And I think in this generation, you know,
how can you begin to put legs on and kind of come
on the street of maybe a Gen Z, a millennial?
Like what is it that makes Jesus so beautiful
even in a way that maybe they could track with?
Right, well, I think it's because he gives meaning
and purpose to your life.
And there's not meaning.
I think art is huge, I think physical beauty
is huge to the Lord.
And like you said, it's interesting
because the Bible says there wasn't something beautiful
about, oh, he looks like the most handsome guy,
like he's the guy, he's the one,
because he just looks so much more physically attractive
in the way that, you know, maybe we think
of physical attractiveness, right?
But his eyes, his touch, the way that he loved people,
the way that he forgave his enemies,
the way he could see past people's barriers.
So there's a beauty in people,
there's a beauty in Mother Teresa, right?
I mean, she wasn't physically beautiful,
but almost everybody's attractive to her story.
And if people don't, you know, agree to her beliefs
about God or mission or theology,
they're like, she spent her life for the poor
and she found deeper meaning.
And so I think there's something about
when we see beautiful art,
when we see a beautiful sunset or sunrise,
when we see a story, like a film,
where there's forgiveness or there's a restoration
of Father and Son,
where there's the power of blessing demonstrated,
that's all a part of God's redemptive truth.
And I'm not necessarily a proponent of like, you know,
search all the religions to try to find any truth
that's God's truth.
I'm not, you can get kind of out there on some of that,
that I think is beyond what's helpful
and fruitful in the Christian life.
But I think that we've lost at times the reality
of how there's a beauty to finding meaning and purpose.
And there's like this deep ache and longing in us
to be a part of family, to be a part of community,
to be, it's because we long to be, to not be alone.
And ultimately we long,
I think we have an eternal longing for God.
The sin has corrupted and perverted
and we need forgiveness of that.
But there's also a deep longing.
We're created in God's image.
We're created in His likeness.
And so that we were made for glory.
We were made for beauty.
We were made for this world with God.
And now there's been this fracture between heaven and earth
because of sin, but Christ is the,
He's the link to heaven and earth again.
He's the, again, His humiliation is for our exaltation.
He came down to lift us up.
And so to Gen Z, it's like,
he's the meaning you're longing for.
He is, he's the ultimate beauty.
And the reason you are moved by certain stories of love
and compassion, by forgiveness and redemption,
stories of hope.
And you like, you know,
you like these different media things.
It's because again, the foundation of the world
is a story of redemptive love.
And so anytime anybody taps into that story
in a different aspect of that truth,
that forgiveness, that reconciliation,
it's like your heart comes alive.
But if you don't, if you don't really know him,
as he's revealed in the scriptures to us,
then that can get distorted, right?
Or that can get, like you can grab onto one aspect
of like justice or one aspect of compassion
or one aspect of even truth.
That's not, I wouldn't say temperate or balanced,
but like well-rounded, that's not full.
Like Jesus is the fullness of grace and truth.
So there's a fullness in him
that like appeals for justice and mercy,
that appeals for truth and grace,
that appeals for, you know, to goodness.
And there's a beauty in that,
when you get to know him and have a relationship,
I don't, I just, it's like everything clicks.
It doesn't mean life is easy for sure,
but to have purpose and suffering
because I was just noticing this,
like Jesus said that to his disciples,
I must suffer, I must die,
and I must be, and I must raise again basically.
But then after that, he says,
you must to be my disciple, take up your cross daily,
you know, deny yourself and follow me.
And so I was like, if he must die,
and then we must take up our cross,
then there, it's through Jesus alone
that we truly find redemptive purpose and suffering.
So in the cross, and Jesus is the sacrificial lamb,
we realize that God understands our suffering and our pain.
He understands our temptation and our trials.
He understands betrayal and being injustice,
and he understands being abused at the hands of others.
But he also willingly submitted to it
so he could overcome it.
It's not that he was a victim,
but he understands what victims deal with
because he was unjustly treated, right?
He did nothing wrong, but yet he endured all this.
But then also through the cross, we understand him.
We realize in our pain that there's something,
we can comfort his heart.
We can fellowship with him through the cross
because he became like us so we could get to know him.
It's a very powerful and beautiful reality
to realize that when I'm going through hard things,
it's really only the Christian story.
It's really only the story of the suffering lamb,
who of course was raised,
because if he's not raised again,
and he didn't resurrect,
then the cross doesn't have ultimate meaning and purpose
and beauty, right?
But it is beautiful because he conquered death.
He conquered the devil.
He conquered sin.
He conquered hell through the cross, right?
So I can endure knowing that there is one who comforts me,
that there's one who's gone before me,
that perfectly understands what I'm enduring.
And to me, that's a beautiful story
and that what I go through and endure
could actually bring glory to God
and even heavenly reward to me in the life to come.
And so even when things seem unfair, unjust,
there is a God, there is a Lord and Savior Jesus
who's coming back as a king and a judge,
and he will make all wrong things right.
And so he gives meaning,
he gives perspective for this life and the life to come.
That is so good.
And I love John the way you made the connection.
There is such an attraction as generation
to redemptive themes.
You know, we were a kid,
good guys were the good guys,
and I'm older than you, so I mean,
I should put it back back when I was a kid
and you were coming up,
heroes are heroes and the villains were villains.
But now we're seeing villains get redeemed,
like Loki, okay, Loki, you're a good guy now.
You've been, and we love that.
We love that redemptive thing.
I mean, Hallmark is making money off the fact
that we love to see romance in the beginning
as unlikely as it may appear,
but all of a sudden we see that love wins the day.
And I think the temptation,
if there's a temptation in any of it,
is that we get stuck on the echoes,
not knowing that they're echoes of a deeper voice
that comes from the Lord,
that God calls us,
there's this, and you alluded to it,
there's a romance of the gospel
where we're called to a romance.
Philosophies begin with man
and kind of these philosophers would try to move towards,
you know, the known to the unknown,
the concrete to the abstract, go for man to God.
And they're ear-tickling, they sound good,
especially on the day of ex, formerly known,
artists formerly known as Twitter.
And those can get clicks and likes
and people are trying to sound super philosophic and et cetera.
But the romance of the gospel doesn't begin with man
and reach to God.
The beauty of the romance is God reached down to us
when we couldn't lift our heads up,
we couldn't, we couldn't,
so much as call on his name, there was not a desire.
We were stuck with no way out
and there was only one way God himself had to make that way.
And so in those movies where someone rescues someone,
they go all out, you know, taking, you know,
I've acquired a unique skill set,
which makes me particularly dangerous.
But there was something about a guy
that would do anything to get his daughter back
and to make sure she was safe.
All of them are butt echoes, man.
They're echoes of something that is a voice that cries.
And the other thing is the Bible says
the beauty of this world passes away.
And I think we could see it like, you know,
hey, maybe this iconic, you know, pinup,
gal or guy during the 80s,
now doesn't look like the person you pin up on your wall,
right? Okay, so that passed.
But it's so much deeper than just physical age,
you know, refining, you know, a person's body,
beauty, whatever.
It literally is that it is passing, it's fleeting,
it's minute, it's a drop in the bucket, you know,
that there's a beauty that does not fade
and the Bible refers to that.
And I agree with you.
I think some of the, right now,
this disillusionment that leads to whatever, you know,
whether it's a narcotic opioid,
drinking, smoking, partying, immorality, all of it.
I know for me, I was looking for a beauty.
At the end of the day,
I was looking for a beauty that fulfilled.
I was looking for the beauty of truth.
And man, when that one Jesus came in my room
and I began, like you said, read the gospels.
And I just was struck, there was nothing I wouldn't do
for a God that would go that distance for me.
And it fomented a passion that I, you know,
I think if we're all honest,
there's flowing ebbs, but there's never been a U-turn.
There's never been a backslide.
There's never been a stop because of,
not because I'm like this super motivated, faithful dude.
It's quite the opposite.
It's that I just see Jesus.
And it was just, there are times when I've wanted
to give up ministry, not Jesus.
I'm like, oh man, this ministry stops hard Lord
and sheep bite Lord and man, you know,
you're trying to help people in this, you know,
but I couldn't cause I would look
and just go into a secret place and people say,
well, do you see Jesus?
And the answer is yes and no, you see him everywhere.
And particularly in scripture, you see him in creation.
You see him, I saw him in the birth of my son and my daughter.
I see him in my wife's eyes.
I see him in a sunset.
And then if you're looking for the temporary,
immediate optical thing that you can lock your eyes on
in this world, he's so far beyond that.
And yet I did see him and I have seen him.
You know, that's all I got to say.
I mean, that's a whole nother story.
Come on.
Man, in what ways do you think right now,
the word of God can become the bridge
that can help rescue us from our beauty default?
Because obviously it points to Jesus,
but in what way?
And you may have answered in some ways,
but I recognize there's a lot of people that it's like
the Lord is wanting to give them a tune up in this area
of getting back in the word, getting back
in the plumb line of scripture
and how that can connect them to beauty.
Yeah.
I mean, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word
of God and just continuing to read, to listen,
to meditate on the word, to listen to good Bible teachers
that have a high value for scripture.
You know, we only know Jesus really through the word.
I mean, yes, he can reveal himself supernaturally
and visions and dreams and different experiences.
And those are all beautiful and valid, important things,
but he's not known apart from scripture.
We only know of him, even from those experiences,
we can only judge those experiences
and find what is valid from them
by coming in line with scripture.
So just having an appetite for the word, reading it daily,
I'm a big proponent of Bible reading plans
and just daily getting in the scripture and listening.
And then I think it's like anything,
I don't know why I never thought of this growing up,
but you know, like in martial arts training,
which you've been a part of a little bit,
like there's kind of a way you learn from a master
or a sensei or whatever the different arts call it, right?
But like to learn the art, to learn your,
to maximize your ability,
you have to learn what was handed down to you.
And like that's what Jude says, like for once for all,
you know, contend for the faith
that was once for all delivered to the saints.
So we have this faith that's contained in the scriptures,
right?
And that the church is preserved through the generation,
God has preserved it through his church,
through the generations.
And so we're to learn the way,
we're to learn the way that's been handed down to us.
We're to learn this, the faith, not faith in like,
have more faith, but like the faith,
the body of truth of who Jesus is
and of God's holy word, right?
So we're to walk this path by studying it,
by sitting under teachers and people that are more advanced
than us, that have more knowledge and experience
and to continue, you know, to see it as a lifelong endeavor.
Like I think every time I read through the Bible,
I know more and I learn more and I get more out of it.
So it's like, it's okay to start as a novice
to not understand half of what you read or maybe more,
you know, I mean, there's a lot of days where I'm like,
I don't even remember what I read,
but there's plenty of days where I do remember and I feast.
And even if I don't remember,
I remember that I fellowshiped with him
and that he was near me as I opened his word
and that I was encouraged that day
or I was warned that day.
And where I might not, like I might not remember
this conversation exactly in a year,
but I'll remember the warmth of the fellowship
that I had with my friend getting to spend some time with him
and that enriched my life, whether I could remember
every line or not.
So it's like every time I open the word
is a chance to be enriched in my relationship with Christ.
And if my goal is fellowship,
my goal is to be more like him, to let him have his way in me.
And then I keep reading it,
then I find that I start remembering more
and I start connecting the dots
and I start finding deeper meaning.
But that didn't happen overnight,
just like in martial art or in a sport
or any other musical instrument,
you become not that any of us ever masters the Bible, right?
But you can only become a master and expert
by spending thousands of hours, right?
Like Malcolm Gladwell says an expert
is like a 10,000 hours, right?
Through his studies.
That's how somebody achieves mastery.
You know, the greatest Bible teachers and expositors,
preachers of the word of God,
well, they've spent thousands of hours.
And so this is a worthy endeavor.
If you spend five, 15 minutes with the Bible,
sometime in prayer, you spend an hour a day, right?
Over in a year, you might not feel like
you've made much progress,
but in 10 years, 20 years, 30 years,
you're gonna have such a richness to share with others.
And anyway, so I would just encourage people
to start consistently and make it a part of the,
core part of their life and they won't regret it.
Hey, John, I love that man.
You're one of the most pure hearted dudes I know.
I'm always challenged.
I think of that.
I think of you and I think of that pure and simple devotion,
man, I'm challenged.
Hey, what are some things you're doing?
How can we follow you?
Tell us about your podcasts, books,
anything you're going on, your church services.
Give us some ways.
We've got some people that are gonna love to lock into you
and continually drink from the well, man.
Yeah, so our church is Sunrise Christian Center
and that's with an O as the son of God, Sunrise Christian Center.
We have a YouTube channel
and we have our services, our streams,
all our sermons are up there.
And then all of my platform stuff for social media
is like, it's John and Hammer, like Armand Hammer,
J-L-H-N-A-N-D Hammer, H-A-M-M-E-R, like the tool.
John and Hammer.
And so John and Hammer at Instagram,
John and Hammer on X, John and Hammer Facebook.
And then actually I do a lot of writing.
I have done a lot of writing on Substack.
So it's like a combination between a blog and a newsletter.
And so Johnandhammer.substack.com.
That I actually wrote, I just finished in December.
I wrote 365 days on the presence of God.
And so it's like, it's part like experiential,
part doctrine, part Bible story, part personal stories.
And every day I go through things like,
who God the Father is for like, for weeks,
who God the Son is, God the Spirit,
and how we experience His presence, the Trinity,
the corporate presence of God,
incarnation in the presence of God in December,
around Christmas time, you know, the cross and the presence,
all these different topics.
It takes about two minutes usually or so
to read through one of these daily devotionals.
And Lord willing, it will be a book
that comes at the end of 2024.
To be released in 2025,
but you can go read the whole archive.
And I write on other topics as well from time to time
that I send out on cultural issues,
doctrine issues, leadership, spirituality stuff.
Anyway, so that's probably the best place
to connect to me is on my Substack.
Hey John, bro, sure appreciate that.
Love your depth, your passion, it's infectious.
Amen, thanks for stopping by, keep it 100.
We sure love you, bro.
And blessing, blessing love you guys.
Thank you, give our love to Christ as well.
We'll do.
And the puppy.
Gosh, such a good conversation.
I love what Pastor John shared.
Just that is, that's revelation and just truth.
I just, that's just profound.
And I love that we're talking about a conversation
that a lot of people aren't talking about the beauty of God.
And yet demands your reflection,
it demands your contemplation.
It demands you to stop, slow down and absorb
and recognize the beauty of God that's around you.
And let us not miss a daily invitation
to adore and enjoy the beauty of God.
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And remember, relief may change your circumstance,
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