1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,000 Hi all, just wanted to give you a heads up that we re-released this episode because our previous version had two errors. 2 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:16,000 Melissa Hogan was under a gag order due to her divorce case, not an NDA or a cease and desist. 3 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:20,000 And those are legal terms, so it's important to get those right. 4 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:27,000 There also was only ever one theoretical Dave Ramsey cruise, which was cancelled due to COVID. 5 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:33,000 So sadly, there are no past participants to tell us what that would have been like. 6 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:43,000 We do try our best to research and fact check these episodes, but we're human, so if you hear something wrong or if you want to say hi, please reach out. 7 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:52,000 And with those teasers of what's to come, here's part two of Dave Ramsey's Total Money Makeover. 8 00:00:52,000 --> 00:01:04,000 Would you lead us in prayer, Mary? Oh my gosh. No, I will not. Maybe that's something we can offer future Patreon. 9 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:09,000 Yeah, it's true. If you like pay us enough on Patreon, I'll pray for you. Oh gosh, no. Okay, never mind. I should get back. 10 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:15,000 This is my Ananias and Sivira grind. Actually, literally. 11 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:24,000 I remember the day that I went into my local Christian bookstore and there was my book. You are not God. You are just a man. 12 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:31,000 The Total Money Makeover book is just sold almost. No, because it's out of reading books. 13 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:35,000 This is Bad Christian Books. 14 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:46,000 Welcome to Bad Christian Books, a podcast about the worst bestsellers evangelicalism has to offer. I'm Mary Hall. I am a person of faith and I chose to remain in the church. 15 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:51,000 I am Sam MacCulliato. I am also a person of faith and I will never go to church again. 16 00:01:51,000 --> 00:02:01,000 We're talking about Dave Ramsey. Samuel, this is part two. What do you remember from last time in our conversation about Dave's Total Money Makeover? 17 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:18,000 I remember that he was very confident that his rules were always going to work no matter what the economic situation of the current time, you know, whether it's a recession or whether it's inflation, whether it's the year 2023 after an unprecedented global pandemic. 18 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:29,000 He was like, this is going to work. That's the main thing I figured I'd bring up because I what I actually remember and it's the only thing I've been thinking about is the security gland. 19 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:44,000 Oh, that apparently women have on their faces. Yes, the the gland that tells the men in our lives that they are spending too much on their cars and not enough on household goods like mops for us to clean the floor with. 20 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:51,000 Do I sound too salty there? One time I got called a housemaker when applying for a car loan and I just, you know, I struggle with that. 21 00:02:51,000 --> 00:03:01,000 I mean, I think you have every right to be salty about that. So yes, you were correct. I mean, basically your summary is was great about Dave. 22 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:11,000 And I had actually pulled one that was almost word for word. It was from this like Pacific Standard profile, which RIP Pacific Standard don't exist anymore, but they were a great mag. 23 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:25,000 But they describe they summarize his like tactics as one purge yourself of debt to live on cash, three pretend that economic trends don't affect you and for blame yourself when they do. 24 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:35,000 Wow, that's a really good summary. And this is a mild rant that I have where there is this weird thing where we have to ignore the news up until it absolutely affects us. 25 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:43,000 And when that happens, it cannot be the fault of circumstance. It has to be your fault in trying to have control over the situation. 26 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:47,000 It's actually far more disempowering because you're not worth playing with the full deck. 27 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:51,000 I mean, do you want to just take over the rest of this episode? We're going to dig a lot into the news. 28 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:58,000 This is basically just going to be like a catch up on what Dave has been up to since about 2020. 29 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:14,000 Episode one is like talking about a deep dive into like his money philosophy, right, which has kept the church from like engaging authentically and like really tough economic, racial class, immigration, really difficult topics, right? 30 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:22,000 If you want to dig deeper into that, listen to episode one. This one, though, is going to be about what it means like for us to have a Christian celebrity. 31 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,000 Oh, boy. And I'm not being sarcastic here. This is one of my favorite topics. 32 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:33,000 Yeah. And I thought like Dave Ramsey was a really good one to dig into this with because like being financial generally, it's a little bit more intellectual. 33 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:40,000 And I think it's a little bit easier to like engage with like how is he as a Christian celebrity like affected like the entire church? 34 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:48,000 Because I think there's no doubt that if you said who is the financial Christian, 98% of people, whether they've read him or not, would say Dave Ramsey, right? 35 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:49,000 Totally. 36 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:58,000 So like first is like what happens when we like equate a self help guru with like this is God's way of doing acts. 37 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:04,000 And even if his way works, like is the worldview that he is presenting a Christian one? 38 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:13,000 Like is this actually like what the church says it believes that it's like best? Is this like the moral ethical view that we're supposed to like have? 39 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:22,000 Yeah. Is it a worldview that's sustainable? What might be another question? Because I find a lot of these amoral worldviews are in fact unsustainable. 40 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:28,000 You know, you take something like capitalism, which is if you just use capitalism as a pejorative, I think people have fatigue to that. 41 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:40,000 But specifically, this concept of constant growth capitalism, which is one reason why the price of goods is going up and the wages are of actual workers are going down. 42 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:56,000 That is unsustainable. We are in this weird sort of really dumb era of monetary climate change where we're just literally watching money lose its value because people can't hammer out this idea of constant growth from their minds. 43 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:59,000 It's an evil point of view, but it's also unsustainable. 44 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:03,000 Hmm. And now you've just turned off the rest of the listeners. 45 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:04,000 Because I said climate change. 46 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:06,000 Oh, I was gonna say because you said capitalism. 47 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:13,000 Oh, I mean, well, that's why I kind of made the comment of like, I understand that there's fatigue to using capitalism pejoratively. 48 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:19,000 I actually do understand because I think people can be lazy about that where they'll just be like, ah, it's capitalism. 49 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:24,000 Then it's like almost like another learned helplessness where it's like, well, there's nothing I can do about it because capitalism. 50 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,000 I actually like completely agree with you. 51 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:36,000 And that's why I think something that is cool that this podcast can like maybe start to address and I think like the freedom that is faith at its best. 52 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,000 It's a little bit outside of systems. 53 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:45,000 Mathematician Kurt Godel proved empirically that all systems, no system can prove itself. 54 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:48,000 Therefore, all systems are inherently flawed. 55 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,000 Yeah. So, you know, real, real fun, sexy podcast. 56 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:55,000 We talk about God and we talk about math. 57 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,000 I have issues with everyone. I'm a journalist and I'm cynical. 58 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:03,000 I don't own the term cynical, but I have all of the trappings of a cynical person. 59 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,000 I'm just also a hopeless romantic at heart. 60 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:11,000 I was about to say I actually like had a thought where I was like, you know, Samuel, I think maybe this is the basis of our friendship. 61 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:15,000 Is I think we're both optimists who are deeply cynical. 62 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:21,000 Yes, I would describe myself as a cynical optimist because I love people. 63 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:25,000 And I actually think people have all the tools they need. 64 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:27,000 I'm going to sound like Dave Ramsey here. 65 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:32,000 I believe that people collectively have the tools they need to create a kinder, gentler world. 66 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:37,000 I also think there is an overwhelming number of reasons why we don't. 67 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,000 So we're going to start with like, what is gazelle intensity? 68 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:52,000 And like, I think it will lead into kind of some of the themes of today's show. 69 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,000 He says this phrase in the book 43 times. 70 00:07:55,000 --> 00:08:02,000 I know because I found a bootlegged version of his book online and I did a fine search. 71 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:13,000 And so I wanted you to read this excerpt about where Dave explains what gazelle intensity is and why we need to have it. 72 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:17,000 It's the new international Dave Ramsey version. 73 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:24,000 So Proverbs 6, 1 and 5 say, If you have signed surety, my son, surety is Bible talk for debt, 74 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:31,000 deliver yourself like the bird from the hand of the fowler and the gazelle from the hand of the hunter. 75 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:37,000 I remember reading that Bible verse and thinking what a cute little animal metaphor it was for getting out of debt. 76 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:42,000 Then one day later, that week, I was surfing channels and hit the Discovery Channel. 77 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:45,000 I noticed they were filming gazelles. 78 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:53,000 The next camera shot was of Mr. Cheetah sneaking up in the bushes, looking for lunch in all the right places. 79 00:08:53,000 --> 00:09:00,000 Suddenly, one of the gazelles got a whiff of Mr. Cheetah and became very aware of his plan. 80 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:07,000 Realizing he had been discovered, Mr. Cheetah decided to give it his best shot and leaped from the bushes. 81 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:09,000 The gazelles all yelled, Cheetah! 82 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:11,000 Well, not really. 83 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,000 They did run like crazy in 14 different directions. 84 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:21,000 The Discovery Channel that day reminded viewers that the cheetah is the fastest mammal on dry land. 85 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:25,000 He can go from 0 to 45 miles per hour in four laps. 86 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:34,000 When I read this, I instantly had the image of the Cheeto man, like with the glasses being like gazelles and then like eating a cheeto. 87 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,000 Yes, yes. 88 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:40,000 Scientific conclusion, they take a beating, you keep on eating. 89 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,000 Oh yeah, gazelles. 90 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,000 Can I say dangerously cheesy? Is that copyrighted? 91 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:49,000 I don't know, I have no idea. 92 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:58,000 The show also proved that because the gazelle will outmaneuver the cheetah instead of outrunning him, the cheetah will tire quickly. 93 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:05,000 As a matter of fact, the cheetah only gets his gazelle burger for lunch in one out of 19 chases. 94 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:14,000 The gazelle's primary hunter is the fastest mammal on dry ground, yet the gazelle wins almost every time. 95 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:19,000 Likewise, the way out of debt is to outmaneuver the enemy and run for your life. 96 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:26,000 Around our office, the counselors can predict who will make it out of debt based on how gazelle intense they are. 97 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:32,000 If they are looking at a red line on the refrigerator door and yelling, they have a really good shot. 98 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:42,000 However, if they are looking for a get rich quick scheme or some intellectual theory instead of sacrifice, hard work, and total focus, 99 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:49,000 we give them a really low gazelle rating and a low probability of becoming debt free. 100 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:55,000 If I was talking to a financial planner and he gave me a gazelle rating, I would just stand up and walk away. 101 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:59,000 I'd be like, excuse me? What does that have to do with anything? 102 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,000 This metaphor makes no sense. 103 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:02,000 No. 104 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:11,000 Because it's all about how focused gazelles are, but the cheetah is the one that's focused, and the gazelles just run in every area, 105 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,000 so gazelles are chaotic and cheetahs are focused. 106 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:20,000 He's basically saying there is a one in 20 chance that no matter what you do, you're screwed. 107 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,000 The cheetah is going to eat eventually. 108 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:29,000 And the other thing is the gazelles make it out alive because they work together against the cheetah. 109 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:34,000 So there's a little piece I want to read to you that's like a couple paragraphs after this, 110 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:41,000 and he writes, total sold out focused intensity is possibly the most important. 111 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:49,000 This means saying to yourself and meaning it to the exclusion of virtually everything else I'm getting out of debt. 112 00:11:49,000 --> 00:12:00,000 The definition of a cult is a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object, 113 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:05,000 or a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing. 114 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:13,000 Now, if you look at that in the Christian circles, a cult is typically like a denomination that is not recognized by the general church. 115 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:21,000 How do either of those things differ from how Ramsey is describing our mindset, how it should be? 116 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:27,000 Well, I like your reaction, Samuel, because it actually is a perfect segue to the next part I wanted to talk about, 117 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:36,000 which I have the subhead I put on it was strange and quote cult like culture in Dave Ramsey's company. 118 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:42,000 Dave sold his company as a for profit company for Jesus. 119 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:50,000 And I would like to explore what people have said about what that looks like in real life. 120 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:56,000 Jesus loves a prophet. Yeah, actually now. No prophet is accepted in their hometown. 121 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:02,000 Wow, that was so much dad energy. I can't believe I don't have a child. 122 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:07,000 Honestly, it's because of my gazelle intensity. I'm just I don't think I'm ready. 123 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:13,000 Okay, so I'm going to talk a little bit about sources just because like a lot of this is like allegations. 124 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:19,000 A lot of these are playing out in like court cases and legal cases that like are still to be pending. 125 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:27,000 I largely am quoting from several investigations done by the Religion News Service, which is like a smaller outlet. 126 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:31,000 But they do like pretty in depth investigations. 127 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:37,000 I also like contacted several of the key players in the story, several of who have like their own podcasts. 128 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:45,000 There is an entire world of like Christian financial influencers who follow Dave Ramsey. 129 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,000 They were really kind to me to share what they knew. 130 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:52,000 So anyway, price of avocado toast, which is like more of a financial millennial podcast. 131 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,000 And then the second one is called the Untangled Faith podcast. 132 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:58,000 The woman behind that is a key player in this story. 133 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:09,000 And I will just say that the Ramsey Solutions and or Dave Ramsey has denied all allegations of impropriety, being illegal, 134 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:14,000 and or answers journalists requests with sarcasm. 135 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:19,000 So that was their stance. But I am basically reporting what other people have said who were there. 136 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:27,000 I'm going to kind of take you through like a timeline of how some of the problematic aspects of the Ramsey Solutions, 137 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:39,000 like culture came out. I think like to start off, Dave really sold this company as a for profit for Jesus. 138 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:49,000 And I think a lot of Christians, especially like millennials who wanted like the hope that they still could be financially stable, 139 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:56,000 even after the stuff that has happened in our lifetime, they really wanted to like be a part of this community. 140 00:14:56,000 --> 00:15:05,000 And it does seem from people who joined that like it really was this aspirational space when new employees would come like and move 141 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:12,000 to Nashville, where his headquarters are like other employees would like show up to help them like unpack their new house. 142 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:23,000 There was a women's group for wives of employees who like would take the new wife out to lunch and help them figure out 143 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:31,000 what church to go to. And there was like a Facebook group like it really seemed like, you know, a Christian version of like Google or Facebook, 144 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:37,000 where they're like, this is your life. It's not just your workplace. It's your community. It's fun. 145 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:41,000 I mean, people described it as like, I got to go to work at Disneyland every day. 146 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:45,000 Like, yeah, I mean, essentially, you're at work even when you're socialized. 147 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:55,000 The rise of Ramsey Solutions as this like full, you know, like mega Kingelomoran empire like was at the same time Google was rising from like 2011 148 00:15:55,000 --> 00:16:00,000 through probably like 2019, 18, somewhere in there, he built his like mega headquarters. 149 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:08,000 It was very much community plus work. But at the same time, there were red flags, you know, in their training, there were these like values that they were taught 150 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:16,000 because like the company had a Christian value morality aspect that like you had to agree to. 151 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:25,000 And so companies were taught and trained to have a self employed mentality, that is a quote, that they were told to work as unto the Lord, 152 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:32,000 which that's a quote from the Bible. For me, that's a red flag and probably other people like looking back, you're not working to the Lord. 153 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:40,000 You're working for Dave Ramsey. Right. And that's like not necessarily bad. But like you should be clear that this is not the Lord, right? 154 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:50,000 Other employees have talked about how every employee who was there had to have this like, they called them like Dave stories of how like Dave Ramsey had changed your life. 155 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:56,000 One employee was quoted in an article saying it was like asking, how did you meet Jesus? 156 00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:05,000 So there really was this sense of like Dave is the savior of Christian finances. This is the part that I was just like, what is happening? 157 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:10,000 I'm just picturing people being like, yeah, we saw Dave on the road. At first, we didn't recognize him. 158 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:21,000 Then he began to ask us questions about our personal finance. And we said, Dave, is that you? And he looked at us and said, I am he. And then he screamed at us. 159 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:27,000 If you're if you're compared to like a radio show, that actually might be a very legitimate Dave story. 160 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:33,000 But I mean, OK, so but it didn't just stop with the employees to get a job at Ramsey Solutions. 161 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:41,000 You had to go through multiple interviews and I'm not talking like three or four. I'm talking about like interviews. 162 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:48,000 You had to like fly if you were out of Tennessee and your spouse was also interviewed. 163 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:55,000 There's already been so many red flags, but that is the crimsonist flag. 164 00:17:55,000 --> 00:18:02,000 Spouses were interviewed to decide if the spouse was a culture fit. 165 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:11,000 And all of this like interview employee process comes from Dave's book called Entrez Leadership, which I like was like, I have so much to dig into. 166 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:16,000 I'm not going to get there, but maybe we will one day. That is like his view of how companies should be run. 167 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:27,000 His website where he talks about how he does the interview process says when hiring someone, you are employing more than just the person you're taking on the whole family. 168 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:37,000 And when they are married to someone who is domineering, unstable or simply full of drama, you'll end up with a team member who can't be creative, productive or excellent. 169 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:42,000 This is so invasive. Dave essentially determines who you marry. 170 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:47,000 He talked a lot about how often these were the wives. These were wives of employees. 171 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:55,000 And there was a whole like wife welcoming committee. They had their own Facebook group. Like it was very much targeted to women. 172 00:18:55,000 --> 00:19:01,000 There are lots of incidents where Dave Ramsey talks about women and very like infantilizing terms. 173 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:15,000 Like he'll call them like girl or crazy. And what I hear about this is if your wife is not willing to like be in line, aka has an opinion and you can't control her, then you're not a fit. 174 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:19,000 Maybe that's me reading in from my trauma, but that's what I read. 175 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:24,000 I don't think you're reading into it at all. Literally the whole like security gland thing while silly. 176 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:31,000 It's pointed squarely at women. I mean, it uses the same language that like, you know, I think I mentioned this in the last podcast. 177 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:34,000 It uses the same language as the concept of hysteria. 178 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:43,000 And it leads into the next aspect that was really shocking to me, which is the quote unquote gossip policy that exists at Dave Ramsey. 179 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:52,000 They define gossip as you cannot talk about anything negative with anyone who can't solve the problem. 180 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:57,000 Which I'd like you to think about that. That's not the definition of gossip. 181 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:02,000 No. Also, I'm wondering how do they define who can solve the problem? 182 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:11,000 Because I think of all the managers I've had, they haven't always said it directly to me, but I've witnessed them say, oh, don't bring me problems, bring me solutions. 183 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,000 And then what happens is you just create a culture of yes, man. 184 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:22,000 And I think, I mean, that's essentially what quite a few employees across the spectrum have said happen. 185 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:28,000 It created this culture where like employees can even talk to their spouses about frustrations at work. 186 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:36,000 You know what this reminds me so much of is Scientology. Even the clip of Dave Ramsey and a surrogate talking, it's got that flavor. 187 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:51,000 Well, yeah. And I mean, one of the one of the women who who came out about this, like she did the spouse interview and they asked her like, what would you do if your husband came home and like was complaining about his boss or complain about whatever. 188 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:57,000 And she said that she felt like she had to say, I would tell my husband, go talk to your leader. 189 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,000 And I believed that was the right thing to do. 190 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:12,000 I have spent much of my career in the workforce kind of helping organize like the whisper network, especially among young women of like what's going on. 191 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:30,000 And I know from for like not just one firsthand experience, but like 30 firsthand experiences that abusive practices continue because the people who quote unquote can't solve the problem don't know that what's happening to them is happening to everyone. 192 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:43,000 And it doesn't get solved until all of them talk and are like, oh, all the women at this place are being bullied into taking like the lowest possible salary that like we can legally pay them. 193 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:49,000 That may sound like a real example and it is. And this has just happened over and over in Dave Ramsey. 194 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:54,000 They definitely define like anyone who can solve it as being the manager who can change the policy. 195 00:21:54,000 --> 00:22:05,000 But Mary, this is exactly the reason I wanted to do this podcast. This is why I write books like Koi pond. This issue goes far beyond even the evangelical community. 196 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:13,000 I think the biggest safeguard that people in power have is limiting the average person's ability to say things are not okay. 197 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:20,000 So I want to have discussions like this to pop those corks and say, it is okay to say that this is wrong. 198 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:31,000 Right. Yeah. And I've just been in way too many situations over and over that me because like I'm a loud mouth and unafraid of authority, even though I probably should be. 199 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:38,000 Nah. But no, because I'm a loud mouth who just like tells people what I make and then I ask people what they make. 200 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:46,000 And then I'm like, oh, so like all of the women at this company are making the minimum and all the men are making twenty thousand dollars more. 201 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:50,000 I mean, that's a problem. Right. And like, let's talk about it. 202 00:22:50,000 --> 00:23:02,000 It kind of shows this massive ocean of wage theft and how much power employers have in general and how Dave Ramsey is essentially riding that tide. 203 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:06,000 He's not doing anything new. He's just streamlining it. 204 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:17,000 Right. Which like his whole message is you have the power to change your wealth and he bases that on the fact that he changed his wealth, except he didn't. 205 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:22,000 Oh, he became a media personality. He did not save his way to wealth. 206 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:29,000 But at the same time, he is forcing this mentality on employees and then not letting them speak up. 207 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:41,000 So the other thing that is just like totally bonkers to me, Dave Ramsey, as a part of the company culture, they would have these like all staff meetings where Dave, it sounds like basically they would call them like devotionals. 208 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:45,000 It's very strange. But Dave Ramsey would just get up and like rant. 209 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:52,000 And there are multiple audios of like these things on the Internet if you like really want to listen. 210 00:23:52,000 --> 00:24:02,000 It reminds me of substitute teachers at my private Christian high school who would come in and just start ranting like about how we were an entitled and enabled generation. 211 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:08,000 And it's like, hey, I think you were supposed to talk about graphing today. But cool. Thanks. 212 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,000 Obviously, we had very different substitutes. 213 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,000 Yeah, let's just say you were missing out in Ecuador. 214 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:23,000 Okay, so there was this thing that was called like they called it like Twitter gate, which is just like such a name for something that like no one cares about unless you're in this community. 215 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,000 We also need to retire adding gate to every scandal. 216 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,000 Yeah, it's over. It's over. Stop making it happen. 217 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:35,000 Gate is over. It no longer is. It was. Do you know that quotes? Do you know that? 218 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:39,000 I don't. I was trying to go mean girls with it, but you were going a different direction. 219 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,000 Someone knows. They'll email us. It'll be great. 220 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:49,000 So anyway, so there was this like scandal where I guess someone was like tweeting at Dave Ramsey, just talking about some of the like culture issues. 221 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:55,000 Dave Ramsey and two separate all staff meetings. One, he offered bounties. 222 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:56,000 What? 223 00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:04,000 Like money during a staff meeting for employees who could identify who was tweeting. 224 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:08,000 And like it wasn't even like necessarily like an employee. 225 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:13,000 Like it didn't matter. Anyone in this community who's tweeting, if you know, you'll get money. 226 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:17,000 A different staff meeting. He pulled out a gun. 227 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:22,000 Dave has a very like I'm a hillbilly who like, you know, follows my grandma and God. 228 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:27,000 It's not OK to pull out a gun at work no matter what, unless you work at a gun range. 229 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:32,000 What are you doing now? And this might be this looks like this might be new in 2022. 230 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:48,000 I'm not I haven't I'm literally digging it up as we speak, but I'm seeing that in Tennessee, it is the very least criminal to cyber bully or harass someone online and doxxing, which is what Dave Ramsey is putting out a bounty for is just that. 231 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:55,000 Right. And I mean, there have been things where people have talked about how, you know, gossip. 232 00:25:55,000 --> 00:26:00,000 People would say like, you know, stuff that where it sounded like people weren't actually gossiping. 233 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,000 They were coming together and saying, you know, I'm really concerned about X, Y and Z. 234 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:13,000 And then someone else like their coworker or a different person would like take it up the ladder and then Dave would call them into their office. 235 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:17,000 And sometimes these were even people who had no association with Ramsey Solutions at all. 236 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:28,000 But he's like a huge employer in this area who has a ton of power, but really kind of the chinks in the armor began to happen during COVID. 237 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:34,000 In these like staff meetings and on the air, the thing with Dave Ramsey is he says it publicly. 238 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,000 Like, I mean, he is who he is. 239 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,000 He's like telling you who he is. 240 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:46,000 But he he began to rant against the media against COVID as a real disease. 241 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:53,000 I guess Dave Ramsey does like cruises frequently where like you can go on the Dave Ramsey cruise, which why you would want to do that. 242 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:54,000 I don't know. 243 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:55,000 But people do. 244 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,000 And so it's specifically I'm sorry. 245 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,000 He does the Dave Ramsey cruise. 246 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,000 Where do they go? 247 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:04,000 Hilton head. 248 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:05,000 That's a good question. 249 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:10,000 If you've ever been on the Dave Ramsey cruise, please email us and tell us what it was like. 250 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:17,000 Please, please hit us up and tell us like how many cases of stomach flu were on that. 251 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:18,000 Anyway. 252 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:26,000 OK, so this is what he said publicly about people who were like calling and being like, hey, like, are you canceling events? 253 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,000 Are you like changing them based on COVID? 254 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,000 Which like early 2020, this was like a thing. 255 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,000 He said, you would think that the black plague was coming through the U.S. 256 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,000 Listening to people whine. 257 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,000 You guys have lost your mind out there. 258 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:40,000 We have people calling in. 259 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:44,000 They're wanting to cancel stuff for a live event in May. 260 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:51,000 Let me tell you how much of your money I'm going to give you back if you don't come for the coronavirus in May. 261 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:52,000 Zero. 262 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,000 I am keeping your money. 263 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:55,000 You are a wuss. 264 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:59,000 Oh, did baby's bottom line get hurt? 265 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,000 It's just like, what are you talking about? 266 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:03,000 Yeah, dude, he's he's down. 267 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,000 He's down bad. 268 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:10,000 And I think that thing that's like most offensive to me and that because like I get like I live in Chicago. 269 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:22,000 I actually was like a breaking news producer who like part of my job in those early days was like tallying death tolls like for and sickness tolls for coronavirus like every day. 270 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,000 My day would end updating the death toll. 271 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,000 And that was like very challenging. 272 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:36,000 And at the same time, like I had family and like more rural or kind of like, you know, like these areas of the Midwest and other areas where like it wasn't taken as seriously. 273 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:37,000 I get that. 274 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:43,000 But I think like the mean spiritedness of that, because it's not like people are like, we're canceling. 275 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:44,000 Give us all our money. 276 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,000 Like they're saying like, what are you doing? 277 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:52,000 Right. There's a call to accountability that he is responding to with snarkiness. 278 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:56,000 I mean, that's why I made my snarky response, because it's just like he's not acting like an adult. 279 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,000 He's not acting like someone who is literally my parents age. 280 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,000 He is acting like a child. 281 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:02,000 Right. 282 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:03,000 Well, and like just the end. 283 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:04,000 You are a wuss. 284 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:18,000 That is a personal attack, which like I think actually if you listen or really read what he says, I think if you listen to him, he's such a good communicator that like you're kind of like, oh, this is a percent. 285 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,000 But if you read it, it's actually like a very personal attack. 286 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,000 Like it's all based on personal attack. 287 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:30,000 At best, it is a bullying tactic because you don't actually want to like answer people. 288 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:31,000 Right. 289 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:35,000 And it's also not it doesn't hold any water in any court of law. 290 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,000 Oh, and it's and I mean, it's against your honor. 291 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,000 My client was being a bit of a wuss. 292 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:41,000 Yeah. 293 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:50,000 Like I say, like Dave Ramsey has always said what he means, like his entire personality, method, business, persona. 294 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,000 It's based on this. 295 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,000 I know my way is the right way. 296 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:59,000 Anyone else who thinks differently, you're wrong. 297 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:08,000 When you hit something that was COVID that became so politicized, like from the very first weeks, you have this kind of response. 298 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:13,000 He's still very smart about knowing his audience because I am not his audience. 299 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,000 So I hear that and I'm like, this man's a child. 300 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:23,000 But his target audience hears that and there's this sense of it's so funny that he labels them as gazelles. 301 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:24,000 He's calling them clowns. 302 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:25,000 He's like, I am the predator. 303 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:26,000 You are the prey. 304 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,000 Do you feel scared yet, little boy? 305 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:32,000 Dave Ramsey had his like staff, his radio show and all these programs. 306 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:42,000 But he like that company also relies on people who aren't really like compensated as employees, but they're like teaching this method. 307 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:48,000 This is the point where a lot of his like we're saying with the price of avocado toast podcast, 308 00:30:48,000 --> 00:31:00,000 the couple in there talks about how his response during COVID was the beginning of them being like, huh, maybe this doesn't align with like what we believe as a couple. 309 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:11,000 Kind of after like all of these rants, Dave Ramsey did like take all of their workers work from home for a bit, but brought them back pretty quickly. 310 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:16,000 Around the same time, someone filed an anonymous OSHA complaint. 311 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:22,000 They're the agency that like enforces that you're not employing children, you know, like that kind of thing. 312 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:27,000 They're all safety and complaints, but someone filed a complaint with them about Dave Ramsey. 313 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:38,000 And again, very publicly in one of these like public meetings, Dave went on another of his rants and he said, 314 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:48,000 So whoever you are, you moron, you did absolutely no good except piss me off. You are not welcome here if you are willing to do stuff like that. 315 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:54,000 If you are really scared and you really think that leadership is trying to kill you, we really don't want you here. 316 00:31:54,000 --> 00:32:05,000 And then he said if he found out the person's identity, he said, I will fire you instantaneously for your lack of loyalty, your lack of class, 317 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:10,000 and the fact that you are a moron and you snuck through our hiring process. 318 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:14,000 Hmm. I'm also Googling is Tennessee an at-will state? 319 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,000 Yes, it is. Okay. 320 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:23,000 Which another thing that like no one needs to go into, but I have a little bit of experience working in at-will states and 321 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,000 As do I, as a Californian. 322 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:34,000 Yes, it is. It can be challenging and like employers can fire you for almost literally anything. 323 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:50,000 I am also seeing though that what qualifies as wrongful termination in Tennessee is an employer may not discriminate against any employee on the basis of the employees, race, sex, age, religion, color, national origin, or disability. 324 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:58,000 It doesn't explicitly fall under that, but I did see on at least his Wikipedia page that he there was a firing that does fall under that. 325 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:08,000 In July of 2020, which was just this month of chaos, a woman at Dave Ramsey was fired for having premarital sex. 326 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,000 What? How can you prove that? 327 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,000 Well, okay. So I'm so glad you asked, Samuel. 328 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:23,000 How you can prove that is that she filed for pregnancy leave under the FMLA Act, which is Family Medical Leave Act. 329 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:33,000 It protects you from basically if you have an illness, if you have a chronic condition, if you're pregnant, you cannot be fired. 330 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:39,000 Your company has to at least give you unpaid time off for that. 331 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:50,000 And because she was not married and filed for that, she was fired because it was against company policy to have sex outside of marriage. 332 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:59,000 I assume that there are legal grounds for that policy because the policy exists. However, how on earth is that legally tenable? 333 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,000 Well, um. 334 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,000 Or is it a forgiveness or permission sort of a thing? 335 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:25,000 I mean, it's very dubious legal grounds that he can sue someone for being pregnant even if it doesn't fit an employee code of conduct because the Civil Rights Act says that secular employers, even especially large ones, which Ramsey Solutions falls into, 336 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:37,000 you even if it's run by a Christian organization or religious person, it cannot discriminate on the basis of pregnancy. 337 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:41,000 I mean, that's kind of like standard like case law. 338 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:45,000 However, in Dave fashion, he wrote on his blog about this case. 339 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:51,000 He said, I've got a right to tell my employees whatever I want to tell them. 340 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:55,000 They freaking work for me. 341 00:34:55,000 --> 00:35:00,000 That's not true. I mean, you're right. It's not true. But it's what he wrote. 342 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:06,000 I mean, this is the thing that he says what he is like. I mean, and he's been saying it for years. 343 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:11,000 And I think that is his that is assuredly why he's so popular. 344 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:25,000 This is kind of the second little bout of legal trouble that Ramsey got into. The Religion News Service released their first kind of big investigation in January of 2021. 345 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:32,000 And it was called as Dave Ramsey's empire, the quote, best place to work in America. Say no and you're out. 346 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:38,000 That's a reference to the fact that the beatings will continue until morale improves. 347 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:46,000 Well, I mean, that's like it's based off of this thing that like forever Ramsey would say like we are the best place to work in America. 348 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:52,000 And I guess there was some survey. But like, I mean, maybe at some point they actually like won it. 349 00:35:52,000 --> 00:36:01,000 But towards the end, several said like they felt coerced into like rating Ramsey Solutions was very high on this like scale. 350 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:06,000 I feel like the right often talks about the war on the Second Amendment that's happening in this country. 351 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:17,000 Whether or not you believe that that's actually what's happening or that the Second Amendment in this day and age can do anything to protect citizenry from an Abrams tank. 352 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:22,000 There is a definite war on the First Amendment from the private sector. 353 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:28,000 You know, it's not about right or left. It's about the private sector. Your employer does not want you to have free speech. 354 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:33,000 No, I mean, there's always the phrase, right? HR is for the company, not for you. 355 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:38,000 100%. That's that's definitely true. But I mean, this is just so egregious, right? 356 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:46,000 Like, there's a lot of HR people out there who I know that do try to do good if they can't do great. This is just so egregious. 357 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:52,000 Hashtag not all HR people. One of my best friends is in HR, so I have to give her love. 358 00:36:52,000 --> 00:37:00,000 Basically, in that article, in addition to quite a few other things that we some of the stuff we've already talked about, 359 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:06,000 there's a series of allegations that came to light about one of Dave Ramsey's big personalities, Chris Hogan. 360 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:11,000 We kind of talked about this last time, but in addition to Dave and his whole thing, 361 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:18,000 he has a bunch of personalities that have done his methods and some of them wrote a book or did whatever. 362 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:24,000 And so they also have their own shows or they have their own YouTube channels or whatever. Chris Hogan was one of his really big ones. 363 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:34,000 I think the the time frame for this was like 2019 ish. Ramsey Solutions found out that Chris Hogan had had multiple affairs, 364 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:40,000 which, as we will note, sex outside of marriage is a key thing that can get you fired. 365 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:47,000 Right, Mary, but you have to understand boys will be boys. OK, and the person who got fired was not a boy and therefore should have known better. 366 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:56,000 You just summed up all of my thoughts. So anyway, right before this came to the attention of Ramsey Solutions, 367 00:37:56,000 --> 00:38:02,000 just weeks before Chris Hogan was about to go out on a huge speaking to Ram book launch, 368 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:11,000 it came to the attention, meaning his wife brought it to Dave specifically and others in leadership. 369 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:16,000 Oh, she brought it to people who could have a solution to the problem. She did it the right way. 370 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:23,000 I'm sure she'll be rewarded for that. And she says during this period, she knew that the adultery policy was in place. 371 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:30,000 She was still in the like, we're working on our marriage. Like, I don't want this to be like, you know, I still believe in Dave Ramsey. 372 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:37,000 Like, whatever. As will likely surprise no one, Melissa was bullied into being quiet. 373 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:44,000 Chris Hogan went on his tour right after he came back. Dave in the staff meetings. 374 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,000 I just don't understand why he keeps putting all his cards out. 375 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:52,000 Ramsey said that Hogan in one of these staff meetings was being taken off the tour to rest. 376 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:57,000 Quote, nothing earth shattering or evil, nothing like that. But you're going to kill a thoroughbred. 377 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:01,000 He is a good man, but you aren't going to see him for the month of February. 378 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:05,000 He's going to one of our sea org camps. Oh my goodness. 379 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:11,000 And I mean, yeah, this is in a company meeting where basically, you know, his wife came to Dave, 380 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:19,000 but, you know, was very concerned about her husband being like a leader in this organization when she knew what he was up to. 381 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:24,000 I want to give her props, by the way, because we're irregardless of Dave's rules. 382 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:30,000 She is handling it in the least messy way possible, which I don't even think is necessarily owed. 383 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:38,000 Like, I don't think she had to do that. But like, she is doing she clearly is trying to be at least pro social about it. 384 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:49,000 Which her and I DM'd a little bit on Instagram. I had some like fact checking questions for her and, you know, just wanted to get her her sense on a few things. 385 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:56,000 She's a lawyer. She knows her stuff. Like, she she actually is an expert in this kind of thing, 386 00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:04,000 but was just like incredibly gaslit and really bullied throughout this entire period. 387 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:12,000 And and a lot of this stuff is documented in this article, as well as, again, the Untangled Faith series. 388 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:16,000 She has several episodes where she talks about this period. 389 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:23,000 So basically, Ramsey Solutions, the response was, we're going to work with you on your marriage. 390 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:30,000 They agreed to pay for a couple's therapist, but they made her waive like HIPAA confidentiality. 391 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:38,000 And the therapist had to submit a report to Ramsey Solutions leadership when she was like, that's weird. 392 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:48,000 She was harassed over phone and email of people trying to like bully her to be silent, who were like, you need to get in line with this idea. 393 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:56,000 She was eventually barred from the book tour and eventually she received like cease and desist stuff as well. 394 00:40:56,000 --> 00:41:04,000 She was under an NDA for a while and kind of went silent for like a good period of time. 395 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:13,000 And in this company meeting where, you know, Dave is calling Hogan like a thoroughbred and saying he's just been working it. 396 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:21,000 He there's language in there where again, he's saying she's a crazy, bitter, nasty woman. 397 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:27,000 They're going through a nasty divorce. Like the blame is being put on her. 398 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:31,000 And then at the same time, I mean, it just kept growing. 399 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:42,000 There were several other employees who like knew the Hogan's and their situation who began to go to leadership and be like, I feel like something's really wrong here, like whatever. 400 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:54,000 And they were either fired or forced out kind of in succession or resigned on their own because leadership said basically said they knew they knew about all this stuff. 401 00:41:54,000 --> 00:42:00,000 And they were just, you know, they basically their solution was to create a restoration plan. 402 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:04,000 This is 100% what people talk about when they talk about boys clubs. 403 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:12,000 I mean, you've got this conspiracy of complicity that all just revolves around. I can't let this man get fired. 404 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:17,000 It's like if you, you know, Dave talks this big talk, but he does not walk a walk. 405 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,000 I don't even think his rules are good, first of all. 406 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:26,000 But if you're going to make these terrible rules, you need to enforce those terrible rules, even when it's not convenient. 407 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:35,000 And he is clearly making value judgments based on convenience, which is not very gazelle of him. 408 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:42,000 I can say. Or maybe it is because gazelles just like have a chaotic response to fear. 409 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:52,000 I don't know. I think it actually is very gazelle because it's just like it is that classic thing of men are the biggest secret of patriarchal men is they are deeply afraid of everything. 410 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:57,000 And I cannot stress enough how this is like skimming the surface. 411 00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:03,000 If you're more interested in more, there's like tons of resources out there and I'll will link some of those and like the podcast notes. 412 00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:16,000 So recently, the last kind of legal hurdle that's been going on, which came out this month, is that Dave Ramsey is now being sued for his involvement in a timeshare scandal. 413 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:20,000 I feel good about this because I sent you this article. I broke the story to you. 414 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:24,000 Yes, you did. Thank you, Samuel. I'll do to you. 415 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:36,000 I do need to give a shout out to my mom, who is aware of what we're doing. And she was like, Hey, this is aren't you guys doing an episode on this guy? And I was like, I sure am. So well, Mary sure is. 416 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:39,000 So I shout out to Samuel's mom. 417 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:46,000 And the thing like I think you need a little history of like why it seems very niche until you like kind of are in the Dave world. 418 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:50,000 He has like these talking points that he just like repeats over and over and over. 419 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:59,000 One of them is that timeshares are scams, which like, I mean, yeah, in some ways, he reformed like they are. 420 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:06,000 However, this is a thing that like he just, you know, would always have like he would repeat again and again. 421 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:17,000 So there's this company called TimeShare Exit Team, and they say that they help people get out of exploitative timeshare contracts. 422 00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:22,000 This is going to be spicy, isn't it? They paid Dave 30 million. 423 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:32,000 Well, okay, Ramsey Solutions, whatever. Thirty million dollars between 2015 and 2021 to advertise their services to help people. 424 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:42,000 Dave did not tell anyone that they were advertisers. How he framed it is I went looking for someone to talk about time, who was who was solving the issue of timeshares. 425 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:51,000 So no one knew that this was an advertisement, which is like very fuzzy on the ethical scale at best. 426 00:44:51,000 --> 00:45:05,000 There is a group of 14 Dave Ramsey former listeners who are suing him saying they paid minimally $5,000 to this company, who told them to stop paying fees on their timeshare, 427 00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:10,000 created false property deeds and other records to con customers. 428 00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:19,000 And then like when customers would be like, hey, I'm still in this like timeshare contract and now I'm behind because I haven't been paying anything, they would ghost them. 429 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:25,000 Oh, my goodness. This timeshare exit team would also give them a money back guarantee. 430 00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:33,000 And the lawsuit alleges that they have taken 200 million dollars from clients. 431 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:37,000 They have faced multiple lawsuits, some of which they've lost. 432 00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:46,000 And now this these 17 people are suing Dave Ramsey saying that they should have known they did not do their due diligence at best 433 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:53,000 and like actively knew as early as 2016 at worst that this was a fraudulent company. 434 00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:59,000 I mean, this is to the point like for the Better Business Bureau, they issued a warning against this company. 435 00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:09,000 And David went on a nine minute rant about how the government, how reporters and how the timeshare industry was conspiring against him. 436 00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:13,000 It's like I have to quote him because you couldn't make this stuff up. 437 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:21,000 He said, bring it. You have done poked the wrong bear. You've done pissed off the wrong hillbilly. 438 00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:30,000 Which like he's not even really a hillbilly because he like grew up and has always lived in Nashville, which is like a very large city. 439 00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:34,000 Between him and J.D. Vance, it's like the battle of the hillbilly posers. 440 00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:37,000 We'll see what happens and who wins. 441 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:48,000 But like I kind of like as I was thinking about Dave and so much time with Dave, I've just had this question of like, why do we love our Christian celebrities? 442 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:57,000 And I think I've reached a conclusion that like one of the big lures is like legalism through simplification. 443 00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:03,000 I mean, that touches on Josh Harris. I mean, by his own admission, why Ike is Dating Goodbye was so popular. 444 00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:10,000 Right. I mean, I literally had that on my notes is that like we saw this in Ike is saying goodbye that like dating equals bad. 445 00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:19,000 Like when someone can put into like a very concise path words like this is God's way. 446 00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:24,000 If you're a Christian, you do X. If you're a Christian, you don't do X. It's comforting. 447 00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:25,000 Yeah. 448 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:32,000 Because it simplifies religion, which I think should be something very complicated. 449 00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:36,000 Like, it's kind of interesting because you have so many churches where the rhetoric is step out of your comfort zone. 450 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:39,000 But the largest comfort zone to step out of is the one in your own head. 451 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:45,000 And if you're not living in that kind of gray area where you're asking yourself, why do I think this? 452 00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:49,000 What are the consequences of thinking this? I would argue that that's not faith. 453 00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:54,000 There's a difference between being submissive and being trusting. 454 00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:59,000 But even even saying that, I look at submissive as a bad thing. A lot of people don't. 455 00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:04,000 People fear that they will go wrong or that their children will go wrong. 456 00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:09,000 And that's like in essence, a lack of faith in God and your relationship with God. 457 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:17,000 There is such a narrative amongst Boomer Christian parents of like, oh, my kid no longer believes or oh, my kid isn't doing enough to make enough money. 458 00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:25,000 And it is popular to worry about your child. That is not trust. That is not faith. 459 00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:29,000 I think it is one reason why millennials have been sort of conditioned to look for somebody like Ramsey, 460 00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:36,000 because Ramsey is the honest John that scoops you up off the street when you run away from Geppetto's home. 461 00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:39,000 You know, it's like Geppetto is your parent who's worrying about you. 462 00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:42,000 Dave Ramsey is the person who preys upon that worry. 463 00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:50,000 I mean, kind of what we're talking about with like fear and not stepping outside of the bounds of whatever these like very simple rules are. 464 00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:52,000 It does show a lack of faith in God. 465 00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:58,000 Well, I do actually have a Bible verse that I think kind of was funny because when you were talking about how your God is complicated, 466 00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:05,000 I was thinking about how I think sometimes people use Micah 6.8 as a weapon to say Christianity is simple. 467 00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:08,000 But what's funny is a Micah 6.8 is not about Christianity. 468 00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:13,000 Christianity did not exist yet when Micah 6.8 was written, but it is about God. 469 00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:17,000 And it actually sums up a lot of the issues with Dave Ramsey's perspective really well. 470 00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:22,000 Oh, OK, tell me Micah 6.8 because I don't know that reference off the top of my head. 471 00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:25,000 God has shown you, O mortal, what is good. 472 00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:31,000 And what does God require of you to act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God? 473 00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:34,000 I did have a suspicion that that was the verse. 474 00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:37,000 Yeah. And so we look at Dave Ramsey. Is he acting justly? 475 00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:42,000 Well, our investigation shows that is not the case. Is he walking humbly? 476 00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:50,000 OK, even if you think Dave Ramsey is the bee's knees, could you honestly say this man is acting humbly? 477 00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:52,000 Does he love mercy? 478 00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:55,000 I'll let it hang. I'll let the question hang. 479 00:49:55,000 --> 00:50:00,000 I do think since we are kind of, you know, examining stuff within the church, 480 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:08,000 like it is good to like use the verses that Dave talks about as like a way of saying, is this worldview a Christian one? 481 00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:17,000 And I want to go back to that passage that you read at the beginning because he referenced Proverbs 6 when he was talking about the gazelle intensity. 482 00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:22,000 And I don't know if you remember, but he said, 483 00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:27,000 If you have signed surety, my son, surety is Bible talk for debt, 484 00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:35,000 deliver yourself like the bird from the hand of the fowler and the gazelle from the hand of the hunter. 485 00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:43,000 I will say actually Dave in this passage is correct and how he's using it because it's being framed in this proverb, 486 00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:48,000 at least in these first verses, basically the idea of like being a cosigner on a loan. 487 00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:54,000 You need to get out of that and work off that debt because it's not a super wise financial place for you to be. 488 00:50:54,000 --> 00:51:02,000 So like it actually seems like Dave is interpreting the first like five verses of that correctly, especially like exploitative debt. 489 00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:06,000 It's about like the wicked and the rich taking advantage of others. 490 00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:13,000 I would like to point out that like the two other main places where surety comes up within the Bible, one is the story of Joseph. 491 00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:18,000 One of the brother pledges his life in place of another brother. 492 00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:25,000 And in Hebrews, which is a New Testament book, like it says Christ becomes surety for us. 493 00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:31,000 So this idea that like Christ on the cross like pledged himself with his life in place of our debt. 494 00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:34,000 So Christ is not adopting a gazelle mentality. 495 00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:38,000 No, he's well, this is this is all messed up then Mary. 496 00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:41,000 This is no good. I think I got to stop going to church. 497 00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:49,000 If you were Proverbs is a lot of like this is how the world is and how you should like exist to be wise. 498 00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:52,000 It's not necessarily like in the most ideal shape or form. 499 00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:58,000 This is how the world would be in Joseph and Hebrews, the people who are who put themselves in the place of debt. 500 00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:06,000 It's like third, the gazelle who like walks up to the cheetah and they're like, here I am so that others can get away. 501 00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:16,000 I mean, it's very much a selfless sacrifice, complete intentional selfless sacrifice. 502 00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:24,000 I think a lot of the issues of how Dave uses scripture, he overlooks money versus that I think are actually much more applicable, 503 00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:35,000 including like ones that were actual Old Testament law, like the year of Jubilee, which was a law in Israel that said every 50 years, 504 00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:42,000 everyone was released of all of their debts and all of their indentured servitude no matter what. 505 00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:48,000 It didn't matter if you got the debt the year before and this like 50 year mark, everyone was released. 506 00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:54,000 Yeah, so we're getting towards the end, but I'll have you read the end of Proverbs. 507 00:52:54,000 --> 00:53:00,000 Like I said kind of earlier, it's really being framed as like wicked people exploiting others. 508 00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:06,000 And this is pretty close to how the Proverb ends. It's Proverbs 6, 16 through 19. 509 00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:20,000 There are six things the Lord hates, seven that are detestable to him, haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, 510 00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:30,000 feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies, and a person who stirs up conflict in the community. 511 00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:36,000 Now I can already see how this could be used as a weapon, by the way, against his own employees, 512 00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:42,000 because I look at that last comment as a person who stirs up conflict in the community, and I could see how that could be misconstrued. 513 00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:48,000 I read the whole Proverb and I was like, this is interesting how it ends, given how it starts, how he uses it at the start. 514 00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:53,000 There are issues I have with Dave Ramsey. Obviously I wouldn't have devoted this much time to him if not, 515 00:53:53,000 --> 00:54:01,000 but I do think whether or not his method works for you, this is the issue that should give you pause. 516 00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:09,000 God calls us to complete selfless financial sacrifice and or sacrifice of whatever you have. 517 00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:18,000 Whereas, like I said earlier, Dave promotes this self-sacrifice or family sacrifice so that you can be wealthy at the end. 518 00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:29,000 Think about how Proverb 6 ended. I'm just going to read you a very short little excerpt of how he describes what it's like to complete his baby steps and be wealthy. 519 00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:36,000 He describes it as the feeling of going downhill after you've ridden uphill by bike. 520 00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:49,000 The ride down is glorious. You are now enjoying the ride. The coasting is the fruit of your labors. Memories of strain, sweat, and repeated near failure fades. 521 00:54:49,000 --> 00:55:01,000 As the sun shines and the wind tickles your ear whispering, you are the king. You did it. You climbed the hill. You didn't quit. You paid the price to win. 522 00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:06,000 The smile in your soul says, accomplishment. 523 00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:15,000 And as I was reading out this afternoon, it reminded me of kind of a different line in the parable of the talents. 524 00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:19,000 And Samuel, do you remember the summary of this parable? 525 00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:27,000 There were three servants. They were all given various amounts of talent. One took it, invested it, and invested it a little, got a lot. 526 00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:38,000 And one took it, invested it even more, got even more. And then a final servant was like, I don't want to lose this money. Investments are risky. So they buried it in the ground. And God was like, you suck. 527 00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:40,000 Right. And like we should say talents. 528 00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:44,000 Oh yeah, talents like drachma or dollars. 529 00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:54,000 It's like saying like money. Basically it was money. But I do think like a lot of people, probably rightfully so, have like said like this parable actually isn't about money. 530 00:55:54,000 --> 00:56:00,000 It's about using whatever God has given you to like invest and grow and help others. 531 00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:04,000 It's the closest the Bible will ever come to using the term scarcity mentality. 532 00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:11,000 Like it is basically advising against that, whether it's in money or in actual talent. 533 00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:17,000 You know, I think someone like Dave could say, well, you know, they're God saying use your money wisely. 534 00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:22,000 Literally, I think it's like two or three verses later, this is what's said. 535 00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:31,000 The king will say to those on his right, come you who are blessed by my father, take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 536 00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:35,000 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat. 537 00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:39,000 I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. 538 00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:45,000 I was a stranger and you invited me in. I needed clothes and you clothed me. 539 00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:48,000 I was sick and you looked after me. 540 00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:51,000 I was in prison and you came to visit me. 541 00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:54,000 Not to make this into a Bible study podcast, which it is not. 542 00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:59,000 You know, there's the verse, don't put your treasures on earth where moths and rust destroy. 543 00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:01,000 Instead, put your treasure on heaven. 544 00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:03,000 Invest in the people in front of you. 545 00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:08,000 So much of Christian culture has become doing what is socially safe. 546 00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:14,000 There is a social order in that you need to recognize and it is more important than whatever conviction you have in your heart. 547 00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:25,000 A lot of the narrative of scripture, especially from Jesus, is at the end of the day, if God is telling you something, i.e. if you feel conviction, you got to go with that. 548 00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:28,000 If you have faith, like you have to step out in faith and be like, OK, God. 549 00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:35,000 I would also say whether or not you're religious, like we live in a world that is defined by cost cutting. 550 00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:43,000 I think this is stuff that's invaluable for Christians, but I think for non-Christians even, it's like we're seeing how stupid thinking only about money and only about saving money. 551 00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:53,000 Can be. Just on a pure level of natural selection, it's not all that it's cracked up to be, despite the fact that it is the thing that society values the most. 552 00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:56,000 We can all be different. We can all do differently. 553 00:57:56,000 --> 00:58:00,000 Just because we value something doesn't mean that it's valuable. 554 00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:22,000 I think we need to start prioritizing the value of people over the value of money. 555 00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:34,000 I sent you a link to a Hillsong Church service from February 2020. Melissa Hogan actually sent this to me when her and I were talking about some timeline stuff. 556 00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:46,000 You know, as I said last week, sometimes I really agree with Dave Ramsey, but we come to radically different conclusions about what he says. 557 00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:56,000 Now, I'm not here to tell you that money will make you happy. It won't. 558 00:58:56,000 --> 00:59:06,000 I'm not here to tell you that getting some money will heal your life. It won't. Jesus will heal your life. 559 00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:12,000 Walking in Jesus will bring you joy. 560 00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:18,000 When you get money, what it makes you, the more money you get, it makes you more of what you already are. 561 00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:26,000 If you're depressed and you get money, you're going to be very depressed. Money doesn't heal you. 562 00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:32,000 If you're angry and you get money, Lord, help the people around you. You're going to become a tyrant. 563 00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:36,000 Okay, I do kind of agree with money makes you more of what you are. 564 00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:42,000 Yeah, right. I think it's such like an indictment of Dave. 565 00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:44,000 Yeah, it is. It's the truth. 566 00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:49,000 I mean, this is the thing of like, Dave says the quiet part loud. Like, money makes you more of what you already are. 567 00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:58,000 Money pulls out the stuff that maybe you need to work on. Unfortunately, I think a lot of the church has bought into the idea. 568 00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:01,000 You can never be too much of a gazelle, is what I'm discovering. 569 01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:07,000 Well, actually, since we're talking, I mean, cheetahs and gazelles, literally like the sentence before this clip, 570 01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:14,000 Dave Ramsey says that with his money, he bought a Jaguar. He was talking about a car. But still, there's something there. 571 01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:17,000 It's almost like he's a predator. 572 01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:24,000 I would love to hear like what people think, whether they've like followed Dave Ramsey, whether they hate Dave Ramsey, 573 01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:27,000 whether they like to be a gazelle, whether they want to be Mr. Cheetah. 574 01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:32,000 You can email us at badchristianbooks at gmail.com. 575 01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:41,000 We're also on socials at badchristianpod or badchristianbooks is like our username on like pretty much everything. 576 01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:49,000 If what we've talked about resonates with you and you're kind of in this transitional stage where you're either leaving Christianity 577 01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:56,000 or looking to seek a different outside perspective on it, I write a horror. I have a horror novel about being a Christian. 578 01:00:56,000 --> 01:01:04,000 It is called Koi Pond and it is about a fictional, very religious town in Tennessee and all of the unexpected horrors that lie underneath. 579 01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:13,000 You can find that on amazon.com slash author slash Samuel Cooliato. That's C-U-L-L-A-D-O. I feel like I am on PBS. 580 01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:23,000 I guess if you want to like follow me as a journalist, my like Twitter handle is at hall underscore Mary E, all lowercase. 581 01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:32,000 I don't really tweet about a lot of things about faith, but maybe I'll start. I don't know. That's like more of my like work as a reporter and producer. 582 01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:43,000 So there you go. You can find me on Instagram as fake Sammy C. Are you serious? I am dead. Are we even friends on Instagram? Oh my gosh. 583 01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:55,000 We are not and we should change that. My Instagram is I post one like photo dump per month and then it's just like a bunch of memes on my story so that I can see if people are paying attention to me or not. 584 01:01:55,000 --> 01:02:04,000 Oh my gosh, this is amazing. I've never made a story. Maybe I'll change that. Okay, so we was in charge of the stories. 585 01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:14,000 Well, Gazelles, thank you for joining us for this Christian bookstore dumpster dive. We'll see you at the next one.