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If I found out this deep into doing this show that you were like not Free Britney, I think

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we would just have to stop recording.

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It would be like, and thus concludes the bad Christian books experiment.

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Yeah, worse than Harris.

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You are worse than Purity Culture because you're anti-Britney.

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Don't take that out of context.

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I'm going to start the podcast with that quote.

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I remember the day that I went into my local Christian bookstore and there was my book.

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You are not God.

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You are just a man.

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The total money makeover book that you sold almost.

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The number one bestselling book.

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No, because it's gotta read the book.

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This is Bad Christian Books.

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Welcome to Bad Christian Books, a Christian bookstore dumpster dive where we investigate

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bestsellers and pop trends in the evangelical community.

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I'm one of your two hosts, Samuel Cooliato, and I'm joined by Mary Hall.

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I'm glad to be here talking to my friend Samuel about some books that frankly have been quite

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triggering in my teen years.

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Bringing up trauma I haven't thought about for 15 years, but I guess that's kind of the

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point, right?

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Triggering is a good way to put it.

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I've been doing a lot of, I call it trauma spelunking, where you're just digging through

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some bad memories, but with the benefit of hindsight.

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And tonight's episode is about I Kissed Dating Goodbye, which has brought a lot of hindsight

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memories to the forefront.

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What do you remember, Mary, about I Kissed Dating Goodbye in one sentence?

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I read the book as a 15 year old and prayed and told God that I would, you know, stay

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pure.

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And then like six months later, started dating my high school boyfriend.

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So do with that what you will.

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Not to insinuate I wasn't pure in my high school relationship, or that I wasn't.

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I don't know.

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Maybe tonight I'll find out.

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But that's my memory of the book.

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This kind of sounds like Schrödinger's purity, which I think we all kind of have.

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Now I'm like blushing.

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I'm like, ooh, was I pure?

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Was I not pure?

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What was the right answer for that?

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I think you're perfectly describing the experience of reading I Kissed Dating Goodbye.

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So I'd never read it until until my 30s, i.e. a few weeks ago.

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And it had been often used to kind of, I guess, the popular phrase is used as a weapon.

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So I dated somebody in high school.

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And then I realized halfway through that I wasn't actually dating them.

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I was courting them.

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Their family regularly cited this book as their reason for that philosophy.

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Having said that, they are both an ex and they do not have any peace of my heart.

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So which is the main thing I think people remember about this book.

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The book starts out with a dream sequence in which a woman is at the altar and she sees

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every single ex that her groom to be has ever dated.

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And each of them has just a little piece of his heart.

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Oh, I remember this.

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Right.

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I also think that's like maybe the only part.

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Most people actually, I think most people read that and were like, okay, I think I've

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got it.

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And they weren't wrong.

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But that's the only part I ever hear people reference from this book.

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Well, I mean, as like a young child, I mean, 14, 15, somewhere in there, I mean, a baby

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mentally, it's a very evocative like image, especially if you're like a sheltered Christian

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little baby who probably hasn't had a lot of experience.

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You're like, oh, no, if I like bat my eyes at the boy in biology class, am I going to

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ruin my future happiness forever?

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That's I mean, I think that's kind of like the fear people brought into it.

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Right?

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Yeah, I think that fear and we'll talk about that fear.

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I think that made it a very popular book.

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And I do think it is kind of fear primarily that drove this book's popularity.

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So for those of you who don't know, although I have a feeling that if you're listening

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to this podcast, you're probably listening to hear us talk about kiss, dating, goodbye.

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This book came out in 1997.

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It was the second edition published in 2003, which is the one that I used between 1997

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and 2001.

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It sold almost a million copies per Christianity today.

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At this point, it has sold far more.

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Oh, my word, a million copies, a million copies.

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And like what?

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What?

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Like six years, five years?

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What was the date?

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Between 97 and 01.

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So yeah, like about four years, four years, five years, definitely a million.

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This became nationally popular, obviously, by Josh Harris, the writer's own admission.

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Christianity is sort of niche famous.

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But within that niche, Harris became very famous.

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He was sort of seen as an evangelical wonder kid.

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But those of you may know, around 2019, he announced that he requested the book to be

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discontinued.

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And in fact, shortly thereafter, he announced that he no longer identified as a Christian.

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In addition to him and his wife were also separating, which I think these three aspects

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show not only they not only call into question the advice that he's giving, but shows that

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he himself no longer felt the advice he was giving was good advice.

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But is it that simple, Mary?

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We're going to dig deeper.

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Take me on the journey, Samuel.

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I'm ready.

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Harris and I actually have a little bit in common.

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We're both from Ohio.

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I don't think I mentioned this.

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I live in California now.

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I'm a West Coast boy, but I come from the Midwest.

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And Ohio is for lovers, the heartland.

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And yeah, so Harris is from Dayton, Ohio.

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He's born there in 1974.

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He's the oldest of seven children, although he, similar to me, went out to the West Coast,

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albeit earlier.

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He grew up in Oregon.

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In a June 11th, 2001 interview with Christianity Today, Harris talks about how he was working

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on a homeschool magazine because his parents were major players in the homeschool movement.

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And so he's working on a homeschool magazine called New Attitude.

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Dating was a major topic and inspiration for his writings, which built up to the publication

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of I Kiss, Date, and Goodbye.

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Another Christianity Today article says that Harris was a youth leader in a secret sensitive

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church.

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Eventually, he met the pastor CJ Mahaney, who is pastor of Covenant Life Church in Gaithersburg,

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Maryland.

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So a lot of things happened for Harris all at once.

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He published I Kiss, Date, and Goodbye through Multnomah Publishing in 1997.

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And at the same time, he moved to Gaithersburg, Maryland, and he became CJ Mahaney's pastoral

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intern at Covenant Life Church.

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So Mahaney was basically grooming Harris to take his place as pastor of Covenant Life.

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And we'll probably be covering, I could see us potentially covering Mahaney in a potential

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podcast, in a later podcast, because Covenant Life is a story unto itself.

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But like Josh Harris was like, sorry to interrupt.

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Josh Harris was like young at this point, right?

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Like he was a baby.

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He was 20.

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Yeah.

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I mean, I mean, thinking about it, he was like five years older than me.

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I mean, that's kind of like when I was reading his book.

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You're saying he's older than 14?

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He's older than 14.

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But younger than I think he should be to write a bestselling book on how to like prepare yourself

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for marriage.

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Oh, I fully agree.

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I mean, I wasn't married yet when I like I got married young, and I didn't get married

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to 20.

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So and he wasn't married to 20 yet either.

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So he's giving this advice on a life he hasn't lived yet.

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So between 1997 and 2013, he published six books through Multnomah, four of which are

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about purity or dating.

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Oh my word, that's so many books.

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That's a lot of books.

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That's a lot of books.

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As someone who has a quota of three stories a week, that still stresses me out.

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Yeah, it's like I've self published four books and I similar to Harris, I unpublished my

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first book, but it's a lot and I feel like that's quite the quotient of dating related

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books, especially.

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Harris became pastor of Covenant Life Church in 2006.

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You recall I shared that he was youth pastor and then pastoral intern.

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Did I mention seminary at any point in that equation?

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You did not.

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Do you know?

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I mean, we're pretending like we haven't discussed about this before.

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Do you remember the year that Harris finally did seminary?

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I don't remember it, but I remember it was when he left his church, right?

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After he was the lead pastor, decided he was like, I feel weird about my life and decided

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to go back to seminary or something, right?

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Absolutely.

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Harris did feel weird about his life.

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In an interview with Mike Cosper of Christianity Today for the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast,

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Harris cites his inexperience as a pastor and the way it affected his leadership when

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handling allegations of abuse within Covenant Life Church.

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This was one of his big reasons for resigning as a pastor in 2015 and then going to seminary,

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which is the first time Harris not only went to seminary, but saw the inside of any classroom.

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Now I'm a former homeschooler.

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I homeschooled from second grade to sixth grade.

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So I'm not going to bash homeschooling per se, but at the same time, it is wild to me

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how little education this guy has publishing such a widely circulated book and going on

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to pastor a church.

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I'm sure everybody has different feelings as to like how educated pastors should be

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and even the kind of strange way that we marry education and religion in evangelicalism.

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But the guy had basically no real formal training.

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Well, yeah, because I mean, my and this is it's been a while since I've like looked

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into this guy at all.

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But I mean, my understanding is like even as like a homeschooler, he was even with him

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homeschooling world, he was pretty sheltered, right?

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Like he a lot of homeschool kids like are a part of larger classes or go on trips or

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I don't know what your homeschooling was like.

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But you know what I mean?

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Like there's, there's, there is a spectrum of homeschooling and I always got the feeling

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he was a little bit more on the like, doing it himself side.

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At the very least, I know that he had a gymnastics team because that comes up in the book, which

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I assume was, you know, I didn't look I didn't, I, this is why this is the edge of my journalistic

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expertise.

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I didn't look into with the affiliations.

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I got the journalist and beef instantly was like, okay, could we find pictures of this

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gymnastics team and then was like, I hope Samuel really found pictures of gymnastics.

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And then I was like, Samuel didn't find pictures of him doing gymnastics.

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There's no way I will I will come clean Mary if you go on my Google image search history,

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there are zero queries for Josh Harris gymnastics.

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Man, next investigation.

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Next investigation.

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See, I've got such big shoes to fill here because where this is my first podcast where

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I'm covering the book and we've got Mary, who's an award winning journalist so I'm like,

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constantly, I'm dotting my i's crossing my t's here.

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I roll.

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This is your first podcast but not your first radio show.

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So that's very true.

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Yeah, just little Easter eggs in there for people trying to figure out where we come

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from.

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But yeah, it's not even the first radio show that you and I have hosted together.

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That's right.

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But no one should look that up because it was when we were very young and basically

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goofied off.

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Oh, I can't even imagine what kind of things we were saying on this proverbial show.

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I think I would always just scroll weird news on Reddit and just talk about that.

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100% my mom told me I was talking to her earlier tonight and she was like, I listened to you

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guys once, but it was like really hard to find your show.

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And then she was like, you guys had good rapport.

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And I was like, yeah, I guarantee you had no desire to listen to that show because it

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was like whatever we felt like in the moment.

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There's no research behind it.

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This one will be more researched.

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People are gonna see growth.

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Sure.

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So yeah, speaking of learning of research.

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Professor Harris, he goes to seminary, he goes to Regent College in Vancouver.

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And so he eventually does a documentary about the experience of writing and then kind of

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falling out of favor with I Kissed, Dated, Goodbye called I Survived, I Kissed, Dated,

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Goodbye.

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So according to him in that documentary, his time with his classmates got him realizing

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that his books had adversely affected people.

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I think in the past, maybe people had had criticisms, but he could kind of write them

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off as haters.

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Whereas when it's your friends and people who care about you, then it's a little harder

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to ignore.

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Eventually on Twitter, a woman tagged him and said, hey, your book was used against me

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as a weapon.

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And he said, I'm sorry, which as we know, I'm sorry can be very loaded and it got people

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talking again about it.

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I think the buzz about him apologizing for the book kind of made him think there was

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more interest than there was.

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He began to publicly express remorse for the book societal effect in 2016.

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And then in 2017, he did a TEDx talk where he was promoting the upcoming documentary

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about him reexamining the book.

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This is kind of when we get into the kind of person Josh Harris is though, because I've

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told you a lot about what he does, but who he is.

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Josh Harris is a business guy.

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He has always been a business guy.

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Even reading the book where I'm like, I don't think you understand much about relationships,

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sex or dating.

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It seemed like he understood a little bit about business.

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His apology to her very much has the feeling of, or at the very least was criticized for

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being an attempt to monetize his apology.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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That was my memory of it.

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He wanted to do a seminar about deconstruction that was, I'm just trying to look through

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my notes here.

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It was going to be like $200 to like join the seminar.

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But on the honor system, you could enter a code if you had been harmed by his book and

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get it for free.

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The backlash against that seminar was so great that he immediately canceled it.

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And in fact, it kind of caused the documentary to get, the documentary is out there.

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You can watch it on YouTube for free, but it was never officially distributed.

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That's basically where his story ends until 2019.

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He announced that he and his wife were separating via Instagram.

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Why is it always Instagram?

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It's always Instagram.

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If you're going to choose Twitter or Instagram, you got more words to work with.

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Maybe that's a millennial thing is to announce a divorce, like a celebrity millennials announce

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their divorces by Instagram where I don't know.

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Do you think Jinzy will do it on a Discord server?

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Oh God, I hope not.

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I Discord, I know people are on it.

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I'm not trying to sound like an old person here.

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But as someone who has written a lot about mental health and specifically suicide in

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the past three weeks, I've spent a lot of time writing some stories about those topics.

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Discord is a really dark place slash can become one very quickly.

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I love Jinzy.

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I want Jinzy to know right now.

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I love them.

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I'm sorry.

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I'm feeling very Biden-ish right now.

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So here, please continue with Harris.

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Ignore my exhausted rants about Jinzy.

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God, all I want to do is follow up with you on whatever you mean by I feel Biden-ish.

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But I won't.

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I feel like an old Boomer man.

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But anyway, continue please.

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You're like, I'm reaching across the aisle so much it almost seems like I'm just a Republican.

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Okay, that's in that same month of 2019, Josh Harris announced via Instagram again, that

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he was no longer a Christian saying, I have undergone a massive shift in regard to my

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faith in Jesus.

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The popular phrase for this is deconstruction.

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The biblical phrase is falling away.

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I don't know that that's true.

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By all the measurements that I have for defining a Christian, I am not a Christian.

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Many people tell me that there is a different way to practice faith and I want to remain

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open to this, but I'm not there now.

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In the grand scheme of like Josh Harris grifter moments, this one actually did not really

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sign up, send off a lot of red flags for me.

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I felt like it's about as authentic as we're going to see him get.

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I will say the comments on that were very disturbing.

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It was people that were just like, Christians, if you're listening, be kind to people, even

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if they are no longer part of your club.

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I think I've always had some compassion for him, just because, you know, like we said

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00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,400
earlier, he did write this book.

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If it published when he was 20, that means he was probably writing it at what, 18, 19,

302
00:18:20,120 --> 00:18:22,400
somewhere in that range.

303
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Such a baby.

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No one needs to read what I wrote at 19.

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Please no one look it up.

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I'm sure it exists on the internet somewhere.

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But to have this much power and influence when you're 20, that's very destructive.

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And I think, you know, for like, kind of this like wonder kind type character that he like

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became where he was like fast tracked through a church and you know, all those things like,

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you know, in some ways, I felt like he became as much like a monster of the like, Christian

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publishing world as like he was within himself.

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But then I saw like after he published this like thing, then he like tried to make a business

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for people who like had PR issues, PR like relations issues within the church.

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And I was like, maybe that's not what you're supposed to do.

315
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I don't know.

316
00:19:15,120 --> 00:19:19,640
It just felt like he he couldn't he even when he was like, I need to separate myself from

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00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:25,020
this because like, this thing that I don't believe anymore is obviously like toxic and

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harmful to people.

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And yet he couldn't like he couldn't separate himself enough from it to like, actually separate

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00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:33,680
himself from it.

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And he just kind of kept profiting off it.

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If you saw me if we were like on video, you would see I'm waving my arms frantically trying

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00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:41,840
to express words here.

324
00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:46,360
Well, if you ever don't want to feel compassion for him, watch the documentary and listen

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00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:47,360
to his TED Talk.

326
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Haven't done that one.

327
00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:50,320
Maybe don't need to.

328
00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:55,160
It seems like he has absolutely no clue as to why people dislike his book so much.

329
00:19:55,160 --> 00:20:01,960
And just a quick roundup on this kind of apology to where he did the TED Talk isn't really

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00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:06,080
about purity culture or even interrogating purity culture.

331
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It's about, in a way, aren't I a stronger man for being able to say I was wrong, which

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00:20:11,540 --> 00:20:17,480
kind of almost feels like he's saying he's not wrong.

333
00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:24,040
The documentary is this very shallow attempt, I think, at trying to reach out to people

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00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:25,280
who were harmed by the book.

335
00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:30,240
I think he's vastly underestimating just how many people were harmed by it.

336
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,280
So it just feels a little too little too late.

337
00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:36,680
It also has this problem where there's nobody that they're interviewing where he himself

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00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,160
is not present.

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00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:40,720
But I think you're right.

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00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:44,360
You made a good point when you're talking about being a monster.

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00:20:44,360 --> 00:20:47,520
I think he felt a little bit of that monster ishness.

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00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:52,800
I saw an interview, most recent bit of Harris Media besides this podcast that I engaged

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00:20:52,800 --> 00:21:00,200
with was an interview on Axios where he was basically talking about how he excommunicated

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00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:05,800
people as a pastor for being gay, for divorcing, for premarital sex.

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And so he decided to excommunicate himself.

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00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,840
Did he use the term excommunicate?

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He did, which is just another one of many things that baffle me as to what does this

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00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:20,760
guy think evangelical Christian theology is?

349
00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:22,360
That's just such a loaded word.

350
00:21:22,360 --> 00:21:23,360
Oh my.

351
00:21:23,360 --> 00:21:29,360
Yeah, I haven't heard the term excommunicate since I was studying the papacy in 1400s Rome.

352
00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:33,320
And I feel like you told me this story years ago and I just don't remember the details.

353
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:38,480
But like, how do you enter a courtship without realizing you're in a courtship?

354
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:43,000
I think it's the same reason Harris's wife married him actually.

355
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:47,040
Because in the documentary even she's just like, okay, he was telling me all this stuff

356
00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:51,320
about dating a courtship and I thought, well, I like this guy, we'll just go along with

357
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:52,320
it.

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And I think that's what happens is it really takes two to tango for full courtship to happen.

359
00:21:57,600 --> 00:21:59,280
And at no point did I really buy into it.

360
00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:05,800
So you courted someone knowing that it wasn't going to work out, which is like-

361
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:06,800
Which is dating.

362
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:07,800
Well, there you go.

363
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:13,760
I was going to say that's the opposite of the book, but maybe that's why you've just

364
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,220
proven the thesis of the book.

365
00:22:16,220 --> 00:22:18,400
It's like, you know, we didn't kiss.

366
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I was cool with that.

367
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:21,440
I was just like, hey, you seem interesting.

368
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Let's get to know each other.

369
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:23,440
And then we did.

370
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:27,080
And I was like, all right, thank you next.

371
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:28,160
Wow.

372
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:29,520
So harsh.

373
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:31,920
I mean, that's an Ariana Grande moment.

374
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:32,920
You were before your time.

375
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:33,920
Just need a ponytail.

376
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:38,840
But yeah, it was, that was kind of the thing for me is I was just like, and I think this

377
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:43,280
is actually a central issue with a lot of how these pop culture trends are handled within

378
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:48,520
Christianity is we treat it like an extension of the Bible where we're like, it says this,

379
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:49,520
so we have to do this.

380
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,920
And it's like, well, I don't, I don't agree to that.

381
00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,840
You know, it's like, if you don't want to kiss, I'm not going to kiss, you know, like

382
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:55,840
I'm fine with that.

383
00:22:55,840 --> 00:23:01,200
I respect your physical boundaries, but you can't just say we're courting, i.e. we're

384
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,200
just going to get married one day.

385
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,040
I'm I was how old was I?

386
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:07,280
I was 16.

387
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,280
So like, it was the year the dark night came out.

388
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,280
I remember that was a year.

389
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:14,280
That was a year.

390
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:15,280
That was a year and a half.

391
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:19,320
But yeah, so that's kind of that's how you that's how you court somebody without courting

392
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:20,320
them.

393
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:22,920
You simply stop returning their texts.

394
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,760
I fear that I was a ghost.

395
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:31,840
Enough about me and my dysfunctional, my defective dating habits, as Harris would call them.

396
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:32,840
Let's talk about the book.

397
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:34,880
Let's let's talk a little structure.

398
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:39,360
The book is divided into four parts with four chapters each.

399
00:23:39,360 --> 00:23:44,800
He's making really a handful of points that he spreads over 200 pages.

400
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,760
So the books in four sections, section one is basically saying modern dating is bad.

401
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:50,200
It's harmful.

402
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:54,360
Number two is saying you can't know the love of Jesus without sexual purity.

403
00:23:54,360 --> 00:24:02,960
I should add these are in my words, not his because his words are not efficient.

404
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:07,400
Number three is here's some tips on how to remove sex from relationships.

405
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:12,600
I should say premarital relationships, though he does not really speak to sex within marriage

406
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:13,880
at all because how could he?

407
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,120
He has not been married.

408
00:24:16,120 --> 00:24:18,760
And then number four is just kind of potpourri.

409
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,160
He talks a little bit about courtship near the end of the book.

410
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:26,240
He has a whole section that's just him quoting poetry that he likes and then his hopes for

411
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:27,360
the future.

412
00:24:27,360 --> 00:24:31,360
I think most people just read the first chapter and then skim the rest.

413
00:24:31,360 --> 00:24:36,660
Like I said, everybody's recollections about the book are about the exes of the altar.

414
00:24:36,660 --> 00:24:38,720
And then they'll be like they'll mention courtship.

415
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,920
But here's the thing, courtship isn't even name checked until page 188.

416
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,080
It's like a 200 something page book.

417
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,840
It's more of a more of an afterthought.

418
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:53,520
So this podcast, we're going to oftentimes do our best to like debunk claims that are

419
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:54,520
made.

420
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,560
I know, Mary, you're in the process of reading a book that makes a lot of really specific

421
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,040
financial claims that you're kind of looking through.

422
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,120
Are these actually peer reviewed?

423
00:25:04,120 --> 00:25:07,360
Are these actually correct?

424
00:25:07,360 --> 00:25:14,040
Harris does not make claims that are so easily verified or not verified because they're just

425
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:15,400
anecdotes.

426
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,120
His basis for everything is anecdotes.

427
00:25:18,120 --> 00:25:24,280
He'll quote books, but in more of a like, lit paper sort of way where he'll be like,

428
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,280
modern modern dating is bad.

429
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:27,280
Love is patient.

430
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:28,280
Love is kind.

431
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:32,400
It's like these two things don't really, you know, I think he tries to make the argument

432
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:36,960
that Corinthians was written for a similar dating culture to ours.

433
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:43,120
But nobody well, plenty of people do worship Aphrodite, but they're it.

434
00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:50,360
Aphrodite is not nearly so mainstream as a of an institution as she was in Corinth.

435
00:25:50,360 --> 00:25:55,880
Yeah, I've been like squinting my eyes trying to figure out like how you make I mean, I

436
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:57,520
guess I see it.

437
00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:59,920
Aphrodite often had very little clothes.

438
00:25:59,920 --> 00:26:03,840
So did Britney Spears at the height of her fame.

439
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:04,960
Free Britney.

440
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,240
I'm pro-Britney.

441
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,280
Just establishing pro-Britney.

442
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:15,000
But she wore a lot of crop tops at a time when crop tops were frowned upon.

443
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,840
So most claims are justified through unverifiable anecdotes.

444
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:20,320
I thought this was interesting.

445
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:25,680
Josh's foremost source, which was Elizabeth Elliot, specifically the book Passion and

446
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:31,400
Purity, which is the book, besides the Bible that he references the most.

447
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,360
Which is like astounding to me.

448
00:26:34,360 --> 00:26:40,320
As someone who grew up in Ecuador, the Elliot's were like very big there in the mission community.

449
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:45,120
They were missionaries who came, tried to reach this group of indigenous people that

450
00:26:45,120 --> 00:26:48,120
were like very anti Western world.

451
00:26:48,120 --> 00:26:55,040
And I don't know, I think whatever you think about that, which I have feelings about that

452
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,560
we can talk about another time.

453
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,000
Elizabeth Elliot was like a really remarkable person.

454
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:07,040
I mean, in the 50s, when like women did not just go do things by themselves, she ended

455
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:16,520
up going back into the like people that killed her husband and like a group of her friends

456
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:22,400
and then spent the rest of her life living among them helped bring like medical care

457
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:29,720
there helped negotiate against like Shell oil was coming in and probably just like going

458
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,840
to like wipe out the people that were there.

459
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:34,840
I mean, it's just like she's a very interesting character.

460
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:38,720
And so when you were like, Josh Harris loves Elizabeth Elliot, I was like, well, that's

461
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,000
a weird cameo that I wasn't expecting.

462
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:46,240
Part of the evangelical influencers cinematic universe.

463
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:52,480
And I think at the same time, he's kind of, there's a very kind of boyish naivete with

464
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:57,000
which he's evoking a lot of these Titans, shall we say.

465
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:03,760
I do think there is something culturally, Christianity makes heroes out of humans, by

466
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,400
kind of like simplifying their accomplishments.

467
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,360
And maybe that's kind of how like it was for Josh Harris when he was like a teen, because

468
00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:16,560
it was like, oh, wow, this teenager has such insight into teen culture today.

469
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:20,640
I mean, Elizabeth Elliot is another one where like, I mean, I met so many people who are

470
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:24,960
like, I want to come to Ecuador because like of the Elliot's it's like, do you know anything

471
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:29,240
about like what they did or like what they did after and they're like, No, it was just

472
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:30,960
such this inspiring story.

473
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:35,440
And you know, I do think like, maybe that's something we'll encounter in other books.

474
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:40,480
But that is something that I've had to reckon with too, of like being taught like these

475
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:47,880
very simple stories about people that are extremely complex.

476
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:54,680
And Christianity doesn't make us more simple, if anything, it makes us more complex because

477
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,000
we're trying to live up to our morality.

478
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:01,800
Well, I think you really put the nail on the head though, because even in I Survived I

479
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:06,520
Kissed Dated Goodbye, Harris muses that the simplicity of what he's suggesting in his

480
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:11,800
book is what the appeal of it was, it was taking the complexities of dating and simplifying

481
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:12,800
it.

482
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:19,200
I think too, it's also a way, which is funny, because the book regularly contradicts itself,

483
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:25,240
which is actually a strange web of that, but I think sometimes heavy contradiction does

484
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,840
get filtered by the reader into a rather simple point.

485
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:33,440
Well, and I mean, when you're like 16, and like, I feel all this anxiety about talking

486
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:39,760
to the girl or guy or whatever that you want, I mean, maybe there is like a comfort and

487
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:41,800
being like, well, it's all bad.

488
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:47,000
And the discomfort I feel is not me learning to become an adult.

489
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,800
It's just the sinful world.

490
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:57,040
And so it's more simple if I just like push this off until I'm 20, which hate to break

491
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:03,400
it to all the young kiddos out there, it does not get simpler when you're 20, it gets worse.

492
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,680
I think it validates people's fears.

493
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:11,240
And I think that's a huge appeal of a lot of popular media, both secular and Christian,

494
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:18,920
so called, is people want to feel like they're not being ignorant, that their fears are justified.

495
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:20,880
But we'll get into that more.

496
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:27,080
I think another huge mistake that Christianity makes in simplifying its stories is the simpler

497
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:31,360
the story, the more we can say this person was perfect.

498
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:36,040
If you're a Christian, I feel like if you're not a Christian, you should not believe that

499
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:37,200
anybody's perfect.

500
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:42,860
If you're a Christian, you most likely believe that Jesus was perfect, and that he was the

501
00:30:42,860 --> 00:30:45,800
only perfect person.

502
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:50,840
So it's interesting to me how we regularly try to make these non Jesus characters who

503
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:51,840
are perfect.

504
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:59,280
Well, but I mean, I grew up in a church that regularly said, like, not to get too Christian,

505
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:00,960
he is here for anyone who's not.

506
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:08,320
But like, I was regularly told if you are filled with the Holy Spirit, like, aka you

507
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:15,000
are living a Christian life, you know, in the way that you're supposed to, you will

508
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:16,880
become perfect.

509
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:22,280
You will become free from sin and you will no longer struggle with sin.

510
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:28,120
I mean, that was like literally said to me every Thursday night of every church camp,

511
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,080
because Thursday night was always the Holy Spirit night.

512
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:36,360
Yeah, and I mean, that was definitely you and I were sort of raised in a very unique

513
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:42,360
kind of theology to which was the holiness theology, which so we come from the Nazarene

514
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:48,960
Church, which believes that eventually the Holy Spirit will perfect you through a process

515
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:49,960
called sanctification.

516
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:55,520
Samuel, you just gave away all the things.

517
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:59,520
I gave it all I mean, there's a few Nazarene colleges out there.

518
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,080
Maybe we went to Point Loma, who knows.

519
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:07,280
But yeah, so it's what's interesting, though, is that is not Harris's theology.

520
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:11,880
Harris comes from reformed theology, which basically believes that people sin every day

521
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:16,920
and were thought indeed, until they ask for the final mulligan on their deathbed.

522
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:20,120
That's me whittling it down extremely reductionistically.

523
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:25,720
But it is it comes from that Calvin, it's called Calvinism, which is it's interesting

524
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:32,280
because I find that Calvinists often push for this idea of a patriarchal perfect person,

525
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:39,000
despite the fact that their theology does not support anybody being perfect in that

526
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:40,000
way.

527
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:44,280
So yeah, that's a very that is quite the intro to this book.

528
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,440
So this book makes a lot of points.

529
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,880
Every chapter is literally a list of bullet points.

530
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:55,880
So what I tried to do was distill his talking points into seven points.

531
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:57,880
And they are as follows.

532
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:02,320
One, all physical attraction is a distraction from God's purpose.

533
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,680
Two, the purpose of life is productivity.

534
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,800
Three, singleness is a gift from God.

535
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:14,540
Four, the casual nature of modern dating often puts people in morally compromising positions.

536
00:33:14,540 --> 00:33:17,680
This is me wording that in the most generous way possible.

537
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:22,360
Five, all authority is an extension of God's authority.

538
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:27,440
Six, marriage is ownership.

539
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:33,720
And seven, we should all be policing our peers purity, which I might add is at odds with

540
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,920
points he's making in points two and three.

541
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:41,560
Wow, I predict feelings in the future.

542
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:42,560
I do too.

543
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:44,880
I think we've got some feelings ahead of us.

544
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:46,980
Let's do a breakdown of these points.

545
00:33:46,980 --> 00:33:51,440
Point one, all physical attraction is a distraction from God's purpose.

546
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,840
I really got the sense that this was why he thought dating was bad.

547
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:59,280
Because he says a lot of it's bad.

548
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:05,640
And he says a lot of why, but he doesn't come out and say it, which is sort of an issue

549
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:07,280
with a lot of this book.

550
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:12,200
For being something that's trying to package dating anxieties into a simple, wrap it up

551
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:16,800
with a simple bow, he does not use particularly efficient wording.

552
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:21,520
So the primary focus of chapter one, besides the altered dream, is Josh's struggles with

553
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:23,840
using women for pleasure.

554
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:28,080
It feels like Josh is this close to learning an important lesson about the equality of

555
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:31,920
women and how objectification is morally wrong.

556
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:38,440
But he pivots into making it a reason to other women and make his feelings about them their

557
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:39,920
fault.

558
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,240
This is one of the book's big failings.

559
00:34:42,240 --> 00:34:46,880
Insistently, the beauty of a woman's body is made to be a thing that only exists in

560
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:51,040
Josh's gaze, not something that belongs to her.

561
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:55,800
For instance, he says physical interaction encourages us to start something we're not

562
00:34:55,800 --> 00:35:04,760
supposed to finish, which almost makes me want to ask, so Josh, do you kiss your mom?

563
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:12,880
Like do you feel like that's starting something that has only one logical endpoint?

564
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,320
But yeah, it's like that.

565
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:19,120
I mean, that's such a fishy sentence to me is it's like we're starting something we're

566
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:20,360
not supposed to finish.

567
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:25,480
And that's like, so every kiss needs to end in like full penetration.

568
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,640
Do you understand what you're saying?

569
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:32,320
It's interesting you say that though, because like as an adult, I'm reading that differently.

570
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:37,080
But I think as a kid, that was like actually a very compelling argument.

571
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:42,760
I just think it's interesting how there's like, I guess this is a good example of bringing

572
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:47,720
simplicity where it's just like, don't touch it all and you'll never do the bad touch.

573
00:35:47,720 --> 00:35:51,160
But you know, technically true.

574
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:58,200
This comes to a head in chapter 14, where he has a test, scare quotes that is entirely

575
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:03,280
at a woman's expense, framing her body as a problem and a measure of worth.

576
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:10,640
Mary, can you read us our first big excerpt from the book?

577
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:15,640
How many times have I made a complete fool of myself by falling head over heels for someone

578
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:19,080
simply because of her charm and beauty?

579
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:20,840
Too many times.

580
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:25,320
To cure this tendency, I've created a little game.

581
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:31,040
When I meet a beautiful girl and I'm tempted to be overly impressed by her external features,

582
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:35,680
I try to imagine what this girl would look like when she is 50 years old.

583
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:39,020
Again, I'm actually remembering this now.

584
00:36:39,020 --> 00:36:43,440
If this girl is with her mother, this game doesn't take too much imagination.

585
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:47,480
That last sentence was in parentheses.

586
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:52,520
This girl may be young and pretty now, but what happens when the beauty fades?

587
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:54,540
Does anything within her beckon to me?

588
00:36:54,540 --> 00:36:57,760
Is it her character that radiates and draws me towards her?

589
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:05,800
Or is it just the fact that her summer dress shows off a little too much of her tan?

590
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:09,000
So what if her feminine outline captures my eye today?

591
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:15,480
When pregnancies add stretch marks and the years add extra pounds, will something in

592
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,720
this girl's soul continue to attract me?

593
00:37:19,720 --> 00:37:29,960
The feelings are coming, Samuel.

594
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,120
I have feelings.

595
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:34,120
So this is a thing people said, right?

596
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,000
Like, oh, look at her mother.

597
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:44,360
And number one, he's trying not to objectify women, but what he's literally saying is that

598
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:54,560
once women pass the age of, I don't know, 27, they're no longer beautiful.

599
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,560
That's the DiCaprio rule.

600
00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:59,960
Okay, that's another conversation.

601
00:37:59,960 --> 00:38:05,080
But I mean, full disclosure, since we're here, since we're friends, I have stretch marks

602
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:06,080
on my body.

603
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:08,800
I've not been pregnant.

604
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:13,360
I have more pounds than I had when I got married.

605
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:18,360
I mean, like, my mother has gray hair, I think she's beautiful.

606
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:19,880
And like, she is beautiful.

607
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:27,960
Like, I'm sorry, the gaze of a 19 year old doesn't get to dictate charm and beauty.

608
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:36,440
It's this mindset of, I don't want to objectify someone who is like legitimately hot.

609
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:41,920
So my answer to that is by defining hotness as one thing that I'm just going to disconnect

610
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:47,880
my brain from, instead of being like, huh, maybe like beauty is something different.

611
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:53,640
Yeah, that's the thing is like, he doesn't really interrogate what beauty standards are.

612
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:59,360
I've been doing a lot of reading lately around like, fat liberation and like, fat positive

613
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:00,360
things as well.

614
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:07,960
And I don't know, like, this is the kind of thing that like I internalized in my head

615
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:14,440
in a very specific way, because I was like, well, I like, I think in my brain, I'm realizing

616
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:18,080
this now I'm like processing having therapy with you as we speak.

617
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:23,520
Like, I think I internalize books like this in a very specific way that was like, I'm

618
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:28,560
a short, dark headed girl with a big butt.

619
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:34,400
And like, in my head, the girl he's describing here is a tall, thin blonde girl with long

620
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:35,400
legs.

621
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:40,320
And whether that's true or not, that's like, you know, that's like, what was the presented

622
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:41,320
thing.

623
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:42,680
And so it's like, oh, wow.

624
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:48,520
I do like that your way of like, shaming yourself would also be just like a great headline for

625
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:49,520
like a tender profile.

626
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,720
It's like, I'm a short, dark haired girl with a big butt.

627
00:39:52,720 --> 00:39:56,280
I think people would be like, okay, allow me to swipe.

628
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:58,720
I would like to know more.

629
00:39:58,720 --> 00:40:03,840
I was gonna say moving to South America during my middle school years gave me a lot more

630
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:04,840
confidence.

631
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:08,680
I'm revealing too much about myself and my own psychosis here.

632
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:15,400
But like, no, but I do think like, as someone who has been a teen girl, you have in your

633
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,080
brain an idea of like, what guys are looking for.

634
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:24,160
And then when you hear a Christian guy write this, and he's supposed to be like, the hero,

635
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:28,800
the message isn't decide for yourself what you think is beautiful, decide for yourself

636
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,720
what you think is attractive, like, like who you are.

637
00:40:31,720 --> 00:40:35,800
And like, that's attractive to people.

638
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:40,280
You know, sometimes like, physicality is a part of it.

639
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:44,960
Sometimes it's not like, I mean, there's like a whole range that like, this kind of book

640
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:48,680
just says, well, no, there's still only one thing that's beautiful.

641
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:53,260
But like, we're gonna lock it up in a box until it's ready to be opened.

642
00:40:53,260 --> 00:40:57,280
And that's, that's, that's hard for teens to internalize.

643
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:02,400
Yeah, and I think that's actually a central issue with Harris's mode of thought throughout

644
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:09,240
this book is this book is very anti figure it out for yourself.

645
00:41:09,240 --> 00:41:14,120
There is a belief in absolute authority that we'll get into later, but that authority is

646
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,320
100% external.

647
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:20,240
And there is almost no internal means of coming to your own understanding.

648
00:41:20,240 --> 00:41:25,120
I think this probably reflects how lost Josh was honestly, when he was writing this book,

649
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:30,320
he thinks that these apparently absolute factors of beauty are distract are distracting us

650
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:32,400
from the purpose of life.

651
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:34,960
So what is the purpose of life?

652
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:40,880
Well, according to Harris, my second point here, he believes the purpose of life is productivity.

653
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:44,000
He gives us a little bit of insight in Chapter 12.

654
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:50,000
He feels like productivity takes the form of service, physical responsibility, and parenthood.

655
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:51,000
These are great things.

656
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,840
These are noble, but they are so aren't going to be what everybody else's life is about.

657
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,960
And this is a much more benign way than he makes this mistake.

658
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:01,600
But I think he makes a lot of assumptions about what the average person's life is going

659
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:02,600
to look like.

660
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:06,840
There's not a whole lot to say about the purpose of life is productivity, other than I thought

661
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:10,520
it was interesting that he makes a distinction between producer and consumer.

662
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:14,440
I think this was sort of a popular talking point and the young restless reform movement

663
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:20,880
as it's something that Mars Hill pastor Mark Driscoll talks about as well in his sermons.

664
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:25,880
Service also makes a distinction between entertainment and service, which is fine.

665
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:30,480
I wish he would have extended that distinction to his own book, which I would argue is more

666
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,640
so an entertainment piece than a service piece.

667
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:39,760
I think that was kind of the conversation that was happening in society at large at

668
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:40,760
that time, right?

669
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:41,760
For sure.

670
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:47,520
I mean, you're talking about late 90s, early 20s, the rise of MTV just around the corner

671
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:49,440
is like- The OJ trial.

672
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:50,560
OJ trial.

673
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:56,720
You got Ask Jeeves and I am, you know, direct messaging coming along.

674
00:42:56,720 --> 00:42:58,560
Facebook's not too long around the corner.

675
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:09,240
I mean, I think that was like the moral panic of the time was, oh no, young people are too

676
00:43:09,240 --> 00:43:14,080
concerned with entertainment and so they're going to become bad.

677
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:18,760
Maybe this is a little too political, but they're going to become bad capitalists.

678
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:23,700
And I hope in some sense and form we kind of have.

679
00:43:23,700 --> 00:43:27,200
Maybe because we realize that productivity doesn't always serve-

680
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:28,200
Make you happy.

681
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:31,280
What we think it should.

682
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:35,600
So Harris literally says in the book, my mom has an intolerance for wasted time.

683
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,160
I think God has the same intolerance.

684
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:42,160
That to me isn't so much from the book of Job as it's from the book of capitalism.

685
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:43,160
You know, it's-

686
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:47,840
Literally God created an entire day to rest.

687
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:52,920
Yeah, I think he's cool with a little time now and then, you know, going to-

688
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:57,800
Idle hands of the devil's work is not a quote from the Bible, just so you all know.

689
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:01,360
I mean, when I'm idle I go to Goodwill and it's great.

690
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:08,520
So yeah, this is like his- that idea that no time can be wasted, I think, kind of brings

691
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:13,120
us into his third point here, which is singleness is a gift from God.

692
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:18,040
I honestly thought this one was the funniest just because he would use the phrase God's

693
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:19,600
gift of singleness.

694
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,720
And I'm just remembering the way that I was when I was single.

695
00:44:22,720 --> 00:44:27,200
I should say, I mean, obviously, you know, it's like you could be single your whole life

696
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:28,440
until you're not.

697
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:31,060
But there's a certain point where you're ready to mingle.

698
00:44:31,060 --> 00:44:34,160
And I remember being ready to mingle and also being single.

699
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:37,840
And it didn't always feel like a gift from God.

700
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:41,440
And that's not to say that he's incorrect, but it's just such a funny phrase.

701
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,440
It's kind of condescending.

702
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:49,720
So he likes- he first name checks that in chapter three, he says dating can cause discontentment

703
00:44:49,720 --> 00:44:51,480
with God's gift of singleness.

704
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:57,760
In this segment, Harris focuses on the freedom of singleness and how it shouldn't be spent

705
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:01,520
pursuing romance when it could be spent pursuing God.

706
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:05,400
Harris goes on to make this exact same point three more times throughout the book, name

707
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,540
checking this idea even more underneath other points.

708
00:45:08,540 --> 00:45:10,320
So I like his- some of his quotes here.

709
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:15,560
As a single, and I think this is why he says as a single, like, I don't know, a single

710
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:17,640
feels so othery.

711
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:22,400
As a single, you have the freedom to explore, study, and tackle the world.

712
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:27,400
Harris explicitly says no other time in your life will offer these chances, which to me

713
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:29,400
is such a dis on marriage.

714
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:33,720
Like when you're married, you'll never get to explore, study, and tackle the world.

715
00:45:33,720 --> 00:45:42,560
Like I've traveled less just due to like trying to like succeed, to like stay, like be able

716
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,320
to pay the rent in LA.

717
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:50,560
But ever since I've gotten married, I feel like I've- life has been so much more of an

718
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:53,080
adventure and I get to enjoy it with somebody.

719
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:55,080
I would agree.

720
00:45:55,080 --> 00:46:02,400
Also as someone who like got married a little bit later than you, like a good five, four,

721
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:09,640
five years later than you, and like I'm also a pro of like waiting if you're like want

722
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:10,640
to or be to or whatever.

723
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:11,640
Them too by the way.

724
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:16,600
I like- aren't my- my marriage works really well for me and Ana, but it's like it's so

725
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:18,280
specific to us.

726
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,880
And I think that's like when I- why I have so much issue with books like this.

727
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:27,440
It's like I wouldn't take the experience I had with my life and say like, oh everybody

728
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:29,840
has to live their life this way.

729
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:32,440
Because I'm a very weird guy.

730
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:37,120
Like I'm a weird person who like has different needs.

731
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:43,360
No, I laugh at that only because I'm like Samuel, like people who don't know you, they're

732
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:47,840
gonna read that and just like into that so much.

733
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,040
I think Harris is kind of weird too and has weird needs as well.

734
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:52,040
Yeah.

735
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:57,080
Well and the other point I was just gonna add very briefly is that, you know, I mean,

736
00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:01,920
I actually don't disagree with what he says here because I actually- I like subconsciously

737
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:08,600
almost wonder if this is- I- so okay, slight history into Mary.

738
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:13,440
When I was like in this era, I had like a very strong mentality that was like, I know

739
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:15,000
what I want to do with my life.

740
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:16,000
I want to be a journalist.

741
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:18,840
That means I have to be in a city most likely.

742
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:24,200
Like most Christian guys want you to like follow their careers and I'm not about that.

743
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:26,800
So like when a guy fits with me, then we'll meet.

744
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:33,320
And I almost like wonder if like reading this or some other like singleness weirdness put

745
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:34,920
that thought in my head.

746
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:41,840
But at the same time, I like looking back, I'm like, well, it's very easy for Harris

747
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:44,680
to be like, yeah, being single is great.

748
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:51,360
Like as a man, it's actually really difficult to be in the church as a single person.

749
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:56,040
It's like probably the main reason why I would say as a single woman, it is probably the

750
00:47:56,040 --> 00:48:01,280
main reason why like I didn't have a home church for like a good three years probably

751
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:05,160
after three, four years after I graduated college.

752
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:11,840
And it was because like I felt super weird as like a single woman who wasn't married,

753
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:15,160
wasn't engaged, but also wasn't in college.

754
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:17,520
And like people would be like, oh, do you have a boyfriend?

755
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:21,000
I'm like, no, but like, I'm the editor of a paper.

756
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:22,360
And they're like, okay, cool.

757
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:24,040
When are you having babies?

758
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:27,920
Like, you know, like, I actually think it's actually really difficult for women in the

759
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:29,240
church to be single.

760
00:48:29,240 --> 00:48:31,240
Yeah, I mean, I think you're right.

761
00:48:31,240 --> 00:48:37,240
I think too, it's so interesting to me because the way Harris talks about singleness, I think

762
00:48:37,240 --> 00:48:44,560
he's specifically thinking about, he'll mention women, but whenever he mentions them, I think

763
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:48,360
I have a quote a little bit down the ways, but it's always, it's never in a professional

764
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:49,360
setting.

765
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:57,760
It's always in a, there is this undercurrent of the sort of sexism in the church that often

766
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:04,400
is called complimentarianism where it's like, he's trying to speak to both men and women,

767
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:08,200
but he clearly doesn't believe that they're capable of the same things.

768
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:14,860
Or even like, even if they are capable, like, it's this expectation that like your life

769
00:49:14,860 --> 00:49:20,240
is preparing itself for a man and your future babies.

770
00:49:20,240 --> 00:49:25,080
Like there's that expectation that I don't like, I think when you say that to people,

771
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:27,040
they're like, oh no, I don't believe that.

772
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:30,320
But like, if they examine their thought, like they do.

773
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:35,280
And I think that's something that I struggle with because I was like, I mean, again, I

774
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:40,040
was literally like, when a man comes along who's willing to follow my career, because

775
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:47,400
I got specific places I want to go, we'll talk, that happened when I was like 27.

776
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,200
So Harris makes a lot of assumptions here.

777
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:54,720
He says most of us won't remain single for our entire lives, which I think is becoming

778
00:49:54,720 --> 00:50:00,840
less and less, like that claim is becoming less and less true as people are, A, kind

779
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:06,800
of removing relationships from the equation entirely, especially married relationships.

780
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:12,440
And then I think it's just hard for people to meet people as the world becomes more isolated.

781
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:15,080
He obviously didn't know COVID was coming when he said that.

782
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:19,400
But it's, it's very naive, like a lot of things that he's written here.

783
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:24,680
Well, and I think also like we live longer, like people are becoming single at higher

784
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:26,080
rates later in their life.

785
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:32,480
I mean, yeah, I think there definitely was like, in this period of time, I think a holding

786
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:36,720
on, I recognize it now almost as like a holding on to what the church is doing.

787
00:50:36,720 --> 00:50:42,760
What the church used to be, which was like a man and woman, white picket fence kind of

788
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:48,080
vibe and then trying to figure out what does it look like years down the road, there's

789
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:53,600
like this fear of like all these things that were coming in, like fear of feminism and

790
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:55,040
fear of the gays.

791
00:50:55,040 --> 00:51:01,080
And like, I actually think both of those movements have made a lot of people in the church feel

792
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:07,280
like or outside the church, like more whole with themselves as they've like grown into

793
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:08,280
that.

794
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:13,800
Yeah, I mean, it's allowing it's allowing for more ways of living your life, right,

795
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:17,600
which I think has created a lot of cognitive dissonance for people who need everything

796
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:21,560
to look like, you know, when Eisenhower was still president.

797
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:22,560
Yeah.

798
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:25,760
You pointed out the good part of that talking point.

799
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:29,600
Another potentially good talking point, though he doesn't really go anywhere interesting

800
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:35,000
with it is just that the casualness of modern dating can put people in compromising positions,

801
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:36,120
which is true.

802
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:39,640
I think there's there's an issue of expectations.

803
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:46,360
And even when I, you know, the kind of stories I hear from modern dating are boundaries.

804
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:50,760
It's like a woman will clearly communicate her boundaries, but a man will assume that

805
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:57,280
she doesn't actually mean it or he'll try to coerce her into compromising those boundaries.

806
00:51:57,280 --> 00:51:58,840
I don't ascribe to purity culture.

807
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:03,920
I think it is OK to have sex before marriage, but I think that all sex should be consensual.

808
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:06,760
He doesn't really talk about consent.

809
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:11,160
I was going to say the argument like I mean, I definitely think like what you just said

810
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:14,000
is could be true.

811
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:19,920
I also think the answer to it is not women don't and I don't think you were saying this,

812
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:24,120
but like just I you know, the answer I think that I received was like, well, don't put

813
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:26,760
yourself in those situations.

814
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:29,480
You know, and I don't think that's the answer.

815
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:37,800
I think the answer is teach everyone what consent means, because consent can be about

816
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:43,040
sex, but it can also be about like anything.

817
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:47,480
I mean, it can be about like, how do I how what are the things that are important to

818
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:51,440
me being around you and you being around me?

819
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:57,520
And how do we like do this thing, which is like a relationship in a way that makes both

820
00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:00,960
of us like feel good and feel respected?

821
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:09,200
Yeah, I who there will be a lot more talked about this, though, in a future podcast because

822
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:13,040
of the book that I'm reading that I have a lot of feelings about consent.

823
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:17,880
Does that have to do with a battle and a battle?

824
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:22,960
A young person and two genders that they acknowledge that have it?

825
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:23,960
Yes.

826
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:26,640
Well, oh, you don't even know, Samuel.

827
00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:28,800
There's a good do they get into that?

828
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:29,800
They get spicy.

829
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:35,640
But yes, there's there's there are forthcoming episodes about battles that we will spend

830
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:37,520
most of the episode talking about consent.

831
00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:38,520
So we don't need to hear.

832
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:42,360
I mean, I think the more you talk about consent, the better, right?

833
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:43,360
True, true.

834
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:44,360
That's true.

835
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:48,280
Unfortunately, it's not pertinent to I Kiss, Date and Goodbye because he doesn't mention

836
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:50,960
consent once.

837
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:55,400
His main thing is that people should only be friends and they should be hanging out

838
00:53:55,400 --> 00:54:02,080
in groups that are large enough to avoid dating conditions to happen.

839
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:07,720
But I think the friends only rule does nothing to unblur the lines of sexual tension in relationships.

840
00:54:07,720 --> 00:54:11,160
For one thing, Harris doesn't acknowledge that sexual tension can be felt between the

841
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:12,520
same sex.

842
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:18,480
It also I can guarantee you was felt between teens, no matter how large the group was.

843
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:24,800
Yeah, and I also think it's like having people in a group doesn't mean sex isn't going to

844
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:25,800
happen.

845
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:31,520
I was also going to say like, true, your point is taken, Samuel.

846
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:38,480
I was more thinking of like teenagers who like teenagers going to be flirting, whether

847
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:41,920
there's like 15 people there and no one there but Jesus.

848
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:42,920
Right.

849
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:49,800
And yeah, it's I'm reminded of this Garrison Keillor quote where he's like, they tried

850
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:57,040
to put us in groups of five, hoping the odd number would confuse us in reference to churches

851
00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:58,040
trying to keep them pure.

852
00:54:58,040 --> 00:54:59,040
Poor fifth person.

853
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:00,040
Yeah, I know.

854
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:05,760
That's like making me think of like how I don't know if this happened to you in your

855
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:08,960
Christian high school, but I feel like with couples there was like this thing where you

856
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:14,280
were like, oh, well, like, let's invite one other person to like, you know, make sure

857
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:19,680
nothing happens because if it's just couples and they'll all couple off and like, go wherever

858
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:22,240
and like we did that anyway.

859
00:55:22,240 --> 00:55:23,640
I mean, that's Harris's advice.

860
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:24,640
Oh, is it?

861
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:25,640
Okay.

862
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:26,640
Yeah.

863
00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:27,640
Yeah.

864
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:28,640
I mean, that's that's this whole thing.

865
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:33,600
I mean, it went so well for me.

866
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:39,400
So he's he's preoccupied primarily with premarital sex and physical boundaries, kind of like

867
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:42,560
what we talked about where it's only a problem.

868
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:47,720
I feel like he often puts the onus of temptation on women alone.

869
00:55:47,720 --> 00:55:52,880
I think this is one of the reasons the book was so popular, because I think it provided

870
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:59,800
again, a simple solution to a much more complex issue, which is having a dating situation,

871
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:05,880
whether it's sexual or not, that makes people mutually feel comfortable.

872
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:08,960
And he in saying just don't do it at all.

873
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:10,860
That's so much easier.

874
00:56:10,860 --> 00:56:16,840
It's easier, but it's I don't know that it's like more effective.

875
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:20,940
You're saying not educating yourself makes you you're saying that that would be less

876
00:56:20,940 --> 00:56:21,940
effective to be.

877
00:56:21,940 --> 00:56:22,940
Well, sure.

878
00:56:22,940 --> 00:56:27,800
We're not having like moral boundaries that you like actually believe in, but just have

879
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:33,000
been told to you by a man child who wrote a book once.

880
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:35,560
Like, I mean, yeah.

881
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:40,240
If you see early interviews with maybe that was mean, maybe that was mean.

882
00:56:40,240 --> 00:56:43,800
But I just keep going back to he was a baby.

883
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:48,360
Mary, if you see interviews with him, he looks like evil Joseph Gordon Levitt.

884
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:50,480
Like he like I don't want to be mean.

885
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:51,640
I'm being mean now.

886
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:56,240
But like, he's just like he can't stop smiling, which I get he's anxious.

887
00:56:56,240 --> 00:56:58,360
But like, it's just so creepy.

888
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:02,080
Like Christians listening to this.

889
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:03,640
You guys come off creepy.

890
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:05,640
Thanks, Sam.

891
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:06,640
Yeah.

892
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:07,640
Yeah.

893
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:08,640
That's my.

894
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:10,640
Don't be creepy, Christians.

895
00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:13,240
Don't be fair enough.

896
00:57:13,240 --> 00:57:16,520
I just keep coming back to the fact that he was a baby.

897
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:20,920
Which adult let him write this?

898
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:26,280
I think the I think the people at Multnomah Publishing probably would be the answer to

899
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:27,280
that.

900
00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:28,280
Like, I don't know.

901
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:29,280
That's a rant.

902
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:35,760
I just I keep saying like, who let a man child write a book about dating and purity and marriage?

903
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:40,160
Well clearly somebody did because this brings us to point five.

904
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:44,320
Harris very much believes that all authority is an extension of God's authority.

905
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:49,320
And I think this is really essentially he was given authority in writing this book.

906
00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:56,160
And I think this is why it took him so long to really turn the mirror towards himself.

907
00:57:56,160 --> 00:58:02,440
I think this is another reason why this book is so popular, because it gave it gave parents

908
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:09,640
and pastors a lot of leverage in matters that I think the 90s is really when we saw the

909
00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:16,920
helicopter parent kind of morph into the Imago that it became.

910
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:22,520
It refers to he Harris first to authority in the book is God given and implies it shouldn't

911
00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:23,520
be questioned.

912
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:27,520
For instance, does this person respect the authority of a boss or pastor, even if they

913
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:31,000
disagree with that authority figure?

914
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:36,560
Harris puts how a person relates to authorities above how they relate to their own parents

915
00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:42,320
as a factor for if their marriage material, for instance, say that say that again.

916
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:46,560
Harris puts a person's so like, he says how you treat a

917
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:53,000
cop or or the mayor is more important than how you treat your mom and dad.

918
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:57,120
So here's this his quote on this, a guy who can't follow legitimate orders will have difficulty

919
00:58:57,120 --> 00:58:58,120
landing a job.

920
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:02,920
A girl who can't respect a teacher or coaches authority will have difficulty honoring her

921
00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:03,920
husband.

922
00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:05,160
Please understand those.

923
00:59:05,160 --> 00:59:08,000
That's Harris's word choice, not mine.

924
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:09,800
I'm so okay.

925
00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:13,920
So many feelings, all the feelings.

926
00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:17,560
Neither of those quotes continue.

927
00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:21,040
Neither of those quotes are good, but no feelings.

928
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:30,960
They're bad quotes from a Christian book that is on this podcast.

929
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:34,880
Note that the authority relationships and examples are heavily gendered.

930
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:38,200
Complementarianism is never name checked, but it's heavily implied.

931
00:59:38,200 --> 00:59:39,720
The guy is at a workplace.

932
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:42,600
The girl is being taught or coached.

933
00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:46,320
Which like we should say, I think maybe defying complementarianism.

934
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:47,600
Did you do that earlier?

935
00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:52,880
Basically the idea that like, people who are complementarian are on that spectrum, like

936
00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:59,360
think that women cannot teach men, meaning like they can't be pastors, they can't be

937
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:04,600
leaders of like, you know, like on the I guess, most progressive spectrum, like they can't

938
01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:09,040
be the lead pastor, but maybe they could be like the worship leader on like the most conservative

939
01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:13,440
spectrum, like they can't even teach boys Sunday school.

940
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:17,560
The other side of that, which I think it's pretty obvious Samuel and I fall into is more

941
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:24,720
on the egalitarian side, which views that people do people stuff within their giftings

942
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:26,880
and it does not matter what gender they are.

943
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:31,280
Just thought I should throw that in because I feel like that's, I didn't know what that

944
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:34,480
term meant until like, just a few years ago.

945
01:00:34,480 --> 01:00:39,400
And I had either excised it from my brain or never heard it either until you and I were

946
01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:43,800
talking about this podcast and you were like, talking about these complementarian-

947
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:45,280
Right, because I was shocked.

948
01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:49,480
I was like, this is still a thing and like a majority of denominations in the church

949
01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:56,480
like fall into the complementarian viewpoint theologically, even if they don't practically.

950
01:00:56,480 --> 01:00:59,520
I should say, I was very aware of the church was sexist.

951
01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:02,720
I just didn't realize they had such a fancy fun term for it.

952
01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:06,840
Well, and you can be, you can be even egalitarian and still be sexist.

953
01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:12,520
That's definitely a thing, but yes, there is an official theological term that I mean,

954
01:01:12,520 --> 01:01:13,520
like you see it.

955
01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:20,120
I mean, I think it ties into that view of like this hierarchical view of like who has

956
01:01:20,120 --> 01:01:24,600
authority from who like it's, you know, I mean, it's like the org charts you see in

957
01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:29,240
corporations like this person reports to this person reports to this person.

958
01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:33,560
They do it except it's just like within the family.

959
01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:34,960
Neither works great.

960
01:01:34,960 --> 01:01:41,040
No, I think you've provided a great explanation of complementarianism because this brings

961
01:01:41,040 --> 01:01:45,560
us sort of into our next point, which is I really feel like Harris is making the case

962
01:01:45,560 --> 01:01:48,480
that marriage is ownership.

963
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:53,400
And yeah, that was the one that I like physically shriveled up into my body.

964
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:58,200
Yeah, you don't believe that if you believe in egalitarianism, I would say, because unless

965
01:01:58,200 --> 01:02:01,400
you believe it, if you believe in Jesus.

966
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:02,400
Right.

967
01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:07,640
I mean, that's a hot spicy topic because I could see somebody using the bridegroom imagery

968
01:02:07,640 --> 01:02:13,200
and song of Solomon as a way to justify, justify patriarchal ownership of a woman, which I

969
01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:14,200
think this book does.

970
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:15,200
I mean, I know it exists.

971
01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:19,920
I'm just saying that's my view.

972
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:21,720
It doesn't help that this religion was.

973
01:02:21,720 --> 01:02:22,720
Oh, that's so spicy.

974
01:02:22,720 --> 01:02:26,320
I'm not going to say that I was gonna be like, it doesn't help that this religion was started

975
01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:30,200
by a culture who did see married women as like possessions.

976
01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:37,160
No, I mean, no, I actually think you should say that you should 100 percent read the Bible

977
01:02:37,160 --> 01:02:44,320
as being written within a time frame where women were literally like less worse, less

978
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:46,640
worth than slaves.

979
01:02:46,640 --> 01:02:51,520
Women were only useful as much as they could like pump out babies.

980
01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:57,880
If you read the Bible through that lens, specifically the New Testament, like things that in our,

981
01:02:57,880 --> 01:03:03,900
you know, 21st century were like, it actually is like extremely radical.

982
01:03:03,900 --> 01:03:07,900
And I think that's where I have come not to say that like the Bible does not have any

983
01:03:07,900 --> 01:03:11,680
like passages that are problematic.

984
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:12,680
Definitely think it does.

985
01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:15,800
And like you can debate like that's a whole thing.

986
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:21,840
But I think overall, like people who like, like I think often, I critique is they're

987
01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:25,480
like, well, Paul was a sexist, you can say yes or no, he wasn't.

988
01:03:25,480 --> 01:03:34,080
But like, the radical thing is that even if he was a sexist, he still said, in Jesus's

989
01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:37,000
eyes, men and women, there's no difference.

990
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:43,400
And I think we should also be reading these books within the culture that exists today,

991
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:47,000
which still is very patriarchal and sexist.

992
01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:53,720
That's why we have to evaluate what we're reading, because humans are not infallible.

993
01:03:53,720 --> 01:03:59,400
I think this goes without saying, Mary and I do not ascribe to inerrancy doctrine, which

994
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:06,680
is this belief that the Bible is perfect as it is and needs no critical lens applied to

995
01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:07,680
it.

996
01:04:07,680 --> 01:04:12,960
That's a common, that's a very popular belief amongst Christians that because this idea

997
01:04:12,960 --> 01:04:17,720
that scripture is God breathed, and therefore there's no problems with it whatsoever.

998
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:23,240
I think there is an inherent problem when a text is as old as it is.

999
01:04:23,240 --> 01:04:28,000
If you look at some of the most classic books in American literature, there are problems

1000
01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:29,000
with it.

1001
01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:32,680
Does those make those texts bad or completely unreadable?

1002
01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:38,680
No, I think you have to put your thinking cap on and do a little bit of time travel

1003
01:04:38,680 --> 01:04:45,040
and say, this is how things were then, but that does not need to be how they are now.

1004
01:04:45,040 --> 01:04:48,200
We have this, basically people speaking beyond the grave.

1005
01:04:48,200 --> 01:04:54,240
Yeah, not even just beyond the grave, but thousands of years beyond the grave.

1006
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:58,560
We talked about earlier that we're like, we don't want anyone to read what we wrote at

1007
01:04:58,560 --> 01:05:00,560
like 19 or 20.

1008
01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:05,680
I'm sure in 2000 years people will find stuff wrong with what I write.

1009
01:05:05,680 --> 01:05:09,920
Like he said, you can't escape literature.

1010
01:05:09,920 --> 01:05:12,440
I think Harris experienced this as well.

1011
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:15,320
He wrote a book, he can't unring that bell.

1012
01:05:15,320 --> 01:05:19,880
I want to share just a few comments he made before we move on to the final point, just

1013
01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:24,560
to show that he does actually make this point, because it's a spicy point.

1014
01:05:24,560 --> 01:05:29,200
One of Harris's points in chapter four is, and I quote, I cannot own someone outside

1015
01:05:29,200 --> 01:05:33,680
of marriage, which implies that within marriage you can.

1016
01:05:33,680 --> 01:05:37,360
He's got this little relationship principle that he keeps citing in chapter two, which

1017
01:05:37,360 --> 01:05:41,360
is the joy of intimacy is the reward of commitment.

1018
01:05:41,360 --> 01:05:45,320
His defense of this is circular.

1019
01:05:45,320 --> 01:05:52,000
He basically says, and looking back on this, I do think I understand what he was trying

1020
01:05:52,000 --> 01:05:58,760
to say, which is, the closer you are to somebody, the more you're going to enjoy the intimacy

1021
01:05:58,760 --> 01:05:59,920
that you have.

1022
01:05:59,920 --> 01:06:01,240
But that's not what he wrote.

1023
01:06:01,240 --> 01:06:06,240
What he wrote basically implies that sexual pleasure is a reward for marriage.

1024
01:06:06,240 --> 01:06:11,400
And I think it's like, not every marriage, I think, and this is like maybe a societal

1025
01:06:11,400 --> 01:06:16,320
issue too, where it's like, you know, everybody's speed is going to be different for sex in

1026
01:06:16,320 --> 01:06:21,000
marriage, but there are going to be some people who they struggle to open up sexually, but

1027
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:22,240
you still love them.

1028
01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:26,520
So here's what he said, until you're married, don't treat each other as if your bodies

1029
01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:28,320
belong to each other.

1030
01:06:28,320 --> 01:06:32,360
I think this poor wording really comes down to Josh not considering that spousal rape

1031
01:06:32,360 --> 01:06:36,600
is an issue, it's like a thing and an issue.

1032
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:43,760
And that passage in the Bible where they said, like, your bodies are like each other and

1033
01:06:43,760 --> 01:06:45,800
so like treat this as your own body.

1034
01:06:45,800 --> 01:06:54,080
It was specifically written against spousal rape, against men exerting power over their

1035
01:06:54,080 --> 01:07:01,840
wives who had literally zero, like negative power in any shape or form in their relationship.

1036
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:04,520
So it's like the inverse.

1037
01:07:04,520 --> 01:07:10,160
Even the way you said that, it's evoking the golden rule, not a business transaction.

1038
01:07:10,160 --> 01:07:15,760
It's like, do unto your spouse as you would do to yourself.

1039
01:07:15,760 --> 01:07:22,060
If he said that, I don't know if we'd be sitting here talking about this book.

1040
01:07:22,060 --> 01:07:26,200
We still would because there would be all the other chapters.

1041
01:07:26,200 --> 01:07:28,020
So I'm going to move us on to our final point.

1042
01:07:28,020 --> 01:07:32,040
This one I think is really funny in light of what he's talked about with productivity

1043
01:07:32,040 --> 01:07:34,600
and enjoying God's gift of singleness.

1044
01:07:34,600 --> 01:07:37,780
And that is that we should all be policing our peers as purity.

1045
01:07:37,780 --> 01:07:42,800
So you know that time in your life that's supposed to be not thinking about dating or

1046
01:07:42,800 --> 01:07:46,480
sex, you have to use that time to make sure your friends are also not dating or having

1047
01:07:46,480 --> 01:07:47,480
sex.

1048
01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:52,720
So this kind of cancels out singleness being a gift for God, and he makes some genderless

1049
01:07:52,720 --> 01:07:54,240
assumptions about libido.

1050
01:07:54,240 --> 01:07:57,280
Mary, what do you think those assumptions are?

1051
01:07:57,280 --> 01:08:04,460
My guess is that women not only have no sex drive, but they're actually afraid of sex

1052
01:08:04,460 --> 01:08:09,240
and have to be enticed to open it up, as they say.

1053
01:08:09,240 --> 01:08:17,160
And that men are like roaring machines full of gasoline, ready to go and like cannot control

1054
01:08:17,160 --> 01:08:21,000
their brains in any way, shape or form.

1055
01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:23,040
That is just like always out there.

1056
01:08:23,040 --> 01:08:27,120
Well, we have some handy dandy excerpts to answer these questions explicitly.

1057
01:08:27,120 --> 01:08:29,120
Oh, no.

1058
01:08:29,120 --> 01:08:36,840
Guys, it's time we stood up to defend the honor and righteousness of our sisters.

1059
01:08:36,840 --> 01:08:42,560
We need to stop acting like hunters trying to catch girls and begin seeing ourselves

1060
01:08:42,560 --> 01:08:46,480
as warriors standing guard over them.

1061
01:08:46,480 --> 01:08:48,640
How do we do this?

1062
01:08:48,640 --> 01:08:53,840
First we must realize that girls don't struggle with the same temptations we struggle with.

1063
01:08:53,840 --> 01:08:59,840
We wrestle more with our sex drives while girls struggle more with their emotions.

1064
01:08:59,840 --> 01:09:05,680
We can help guard their hearts by being sincere and honest in our communication.

1065
01:09:05,680 --> 01:09:11,660
We need to swear off flirtatiousness and refuse to play games and leave them on.

1066
01:09:11,660 --> 01:09:17,360
We have to go out of our way to make sure nothing we say or do stirs up inappropriate

1067
01:09:17,360 --> 01:09:21,000
feelings or expectations.

1068
01:09:21,000 --> 01:09:23,920
Can I just say as a Libra, this is so hard for me to do.

1069
01:09:23,920 --> 01:09:28,760
Like everything I say sounds flirty.

1070
01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:32,740
So this is Harris, what Harris believes the girl's responsibility is and policing her

1071
01:09:32,740 --> 01:09:35,600
peers purity.

1072
01:09:35,600 --> 01:09:41,300
I think many girls are innocently unaware of the difficulty a guy has in remaining pure

1073
01:09:41,300 --> 01:09:44,400
when looking at a girl who is dressed immodestly.

1074
01:09:44,400 --> 01:09:49,400
Now I don't want to dictate your wardrobe, but honestly speaking I would be blessed if

1075
01:09:49,400 --> 01:09:53,040
girls considered more than fashion when shopping for clothes.

1076
01:09:53,040 --> 01:09:58,200
Yes guys are responsible for maintaining self control, but you can help by refusing to wear

1077
01:09:58,200 --> 01:10:01,560
clothing designed to attract attention to your body.

1078
01:10:01,560 --> 01:10:05,600
I know many girls who would look great in shorter skirts or tighter blouses, and they

1079
01:10:05,600 --> 01:10:06,800
know it.

1080
01:10:06,800 --> 01:10:09,200
But they choose to dress modestly.

1081
01:10:09,200 --> 01:10:12,460
They take the responsibility of guarding their brother's eye.

1082
01:10:12,460 --> 01:10:15,960
To these women and others like them, I'm grateful.

1083
01:10:15,960 --> 01:10:19,360
You were a great girl, Samuel.

1084
01:10:19,360 --> 01:10:20,360
Fabulous.

1085
01:10:20,360 --> 01:10:22,360
Oh no, I was Josh Harris.

1086
01:10:22,360 --> 01:10:23,360
Full stop.

1087
01:10:23,360 --> 01:10:24,360
Oh okay.

1088
01:10:24,360 --> 01:10:27,880
That's just how, that is how he sounds.

1089
01:10:27,880 --> 01:10:30,920
As someone who was a teenage girl, we did not know it.

1090
01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:31,920
We don't know it.

1091
01:10:31,920 --> 01:10:35,480
And you know, this is another way that women and men aren't all that different.

1092
01:10:35,480 --> 01:10:38,800
Like I always just felt like I was the ugliest person in the room.

1093
01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:40,520
I mean you're like very tall.

1094
01:10:40,520 --> 01:10:41,520
Did you shoot up in high school?

1095
01:10:41,520 --> 01:10:43,800
I feel like that's where that could have come from.

1096
01:10:43,800 --> 01:10:45,840
I'm outing you as a tall person.

1097
01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:46,840
I did.

1098
01:10:46,840 --> 01:10:49,080
To be clear by shoot up she means have a growth spurt.

1099
01:10:49,080 --> 01:10:51,080
I did not.

1100
01:10:51,080 --> 01:10:56,560
Yeah, so I was six foot one in seventh grade.

1101
01:10:56,560 --> 01:10:57,560
Oh my gosh.

1102
01:10:57,560 --> 01:10:58,560
I didn't realize that.

1103
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:01,200
Oh Samuel, I'm so sorry.

1104
01:11:01,200 --> 01:11:03,680
Like I feel like as an adult I'm coming out of my shell.

1105
01:11:03,680 --> 01:11:07,040
Like it's weird because I always had this sort of like confidence.

1106
01:11:07,040 --> 01:11:09,960
I kind of had to be confident because people knew I was there.

1107
01:11:09,960 --> 01:11:17,320
I was perceived at all times and it just felt, it felt preferable to like, I don't know,

1108
01:11:17,320 --> 01:11:21,200
especially in like a Christian high school in Ohio, just having some, become some adult

1109
01:11:21,200 --> 01:11:22,200
special project.

1110
01:11:22,200 --> 01:11:23,640
Like you don't talk much do you?

1111
01:11:23,640 --> 01:11:27,520
It's like no, I'm going to talk so much you're actually going to tell me to stop talking.

1112
01:11:27,520 --> 01:11:30,040
That was my coping mechanism.

1113
01:11:30,040 --> 01:11:35,320
As someone who was like a very short person who has been told I have Napoleon complex,

1114
01:11:35,320 --> 01:11:41,520
like I feel that because I think on the alternate side I was short, I looked super young, I

1115
01:11:41,520 --> 01:11:42,880
looked very sweet.

1116
01:11:42,880 --> 01:11:48,240
I just always had this like fear that people would like maybe just run over me.

1117
01:11:48,240 --> 01:11:53,240
And so I've always been this like firecracker that like exploded my personality into the

1118
01:11:53,240 --> 01:11:54,240
scene.

1119
01:11:54,240 --> 01:11:55,240
Maybe this is why we're friends.

1120
01:11:55,240 --> 01:11:58,280
Yeah, I think we've like kind of both handled our heights in a similar way.

1121
01:11:58,280 --> 01:12:02,080
And people would be like, oh there's Mary and Samuel, the shortest person on campus

1122
01:12:02,080 --> 01:12:05,880
and the tallest person on campus walking next to each other.

1123
01:12:05,880 --> 01:12:06,920
No good transition.

1124
01:12:06,920 --> 01:12:11,120
That kind of closes out the points of the book.

1125
01:12:11,120 --> 01:12:17,320
I did want to share a few extra things that are in the book that I couldn't quite categorize.

1126
01:12:17,320 --> 01:12:21,760
So the second edition features an anecdote near the beginning.

1127
01:12:21,760 --> 01:12:27,480
Because Josh Harris got famous and had really living up to that Woody, Woody Harrelson,

1128
01:12:27,480 --> 01:12:31,280
why I'm an idiot.

1129
01:12:31,280 --> 01:12:35,200
Living up to that Andy Warhol quote in the future, everyone will be, I know.

1130
01:12:35,200 --> 01:12:38,360
Oh my god, you have to leave that in.

1131
01:12:38,360 --> 01:12:39,360
I think I will.

1132
01:12:39,360 --> 01:12:44,160
I'm trying to picture Woody Harrelson playing Andy Warhol.

1133
01:12:44,160 --> 01:12:46,160
He's like playing Josh Harris.

1134
01:12:46,160 --> 01:12:47,160
Oh my gosh.

1135
01:12:47,160 --> 01:12:48,160
That would be amazing too.

1136
01:12:48,160 --> 01:12:53,720
I mean, I'm just imagining the art that would be made.

1137
01:12:53,720 --> 01:12:54,720
I'm sorry.

1138
01:12:54,720 --> 01:12:56,960
I totally interrupted you, but that was hilarious.

1139
01:12:56,960 --> 01:12:58,800
No, that's really good.

1140
01:12:58,800 --> 01:12:59,800
I love this.

1141
01:12:59,800 --> 01:13:03,280
I love bringing Woody Harrelson into this podcast.

1142
01:13:03,280 --> 01:13:04,280
Every episode.

1143
01:13:04,280 --> 01:13:05,280
That should be a thing.

1144
01:13:05,280 --> 01:13:07,280
We'll just work him in somehow.

1145
01:13:07,280 --> 01:13:13,160
This really reminds me of Venom, Let There Be Carnage.

1146
01:13:13,160 --> 01:13:19,640
It reminds me of that Andy Warhol, I was going to say Woody Harrelson again.

1147
01:13:19,640 --> 01:13:20,640
Oh my gosh.

1148
01:13:20,640 --> 01:13:21,640
Listen to this.

1149
01:13:21,640 --> 01:13:22,640
I'm sorry.

1150
01:13:22,640 --> 01:13:27,440
That just was such a, what is that called?

1151
01:13:27,440 --> 01:13:28,440
Freudian slip?

1152
01:13:28,440 --> 01:13:31,520
I can't stop thinking about it.

1153
01:13:31,520 --> 01:13:32,520
It's such a slip.

1154
01:13:32,520 --> 01:13:33,520
It's such a slip.

1155
01:13:33,520 --> 01:13:34,520
Okay.

1156
01:13:34,520 --> 01:13:35,520
I'm sorry.

1157
01:13:35,520 --> 01:13:36,520
Go ahead.

1158
01:13:36,520 --> 01:13:38,840
Harris got his 15 minutes of fame.

1159
01:13:38,840 --> 01:13:42,440
No easier way to say it.

1160
01:13:42,440 --> 01:13:45,680
That 15 minutes of fame extended to an appearance on real time.

1161
01:13:45,680 --> 01:13:47,880
No, it wasn't called real time at that point.

1162
01:13:47,880 --> 01:13:51,320
It was politically incorrect with Bill Maher.

1163
01:13:51,320 --> 01:13:54,680
And the other guest was Ben Affleck.

1164
01:13:54,680 --> 01:13:57,880
So this is like, well, it was Ben Affleck and Christine O'Donnell.

1165
01:13:57,880 --> 01:13:58,880
So he-

1166
01:13:58,880 --> 01:13:59,880
Wow.

1167
01:13:59,880 --> 01:14:00,880
So many people.

1168
01:14:00,880 --> 01:14:01,880
Okay.

1169
01:14:01,880 --> 01:14:07,880
They're just in my brain to what that conversation was.

1170
01:14:07,880 --> 01:14:12,840
Oh, we'll save your thoughts because I'm about to lay it on you because this is, we're

1171
01:14:12,840 --> 01:14:18,040
getting a little bit out of bad Christian books territory and more beyond the blinds

1172
01:14:18,040 --> 01:14:19,040
territory.

1173
01:14:19,040 --> 01:14:20,040
Okay.

1174
01:14:20,040 --> 01:14:21,040
I'll go.

1175
01:14:21,040 --> 01:14:22,640
Let's go.

1176
01:14:22,640 --> 01:14:26,400
So I really wanted to find a clip of this interview because I really wanted to play

1177
01:14:26,400 --> 01:14:31,320
like a bit of it on this podcast, but Mary, I couldn't find a clip of it.

1178
01:14:31,320 --> 01:14:33,360
And I have a theory as to why.

1179
01:14:33,360 --> 01:14:39,120
I was able to find a transcript of the interview via Jezebel of all things.

1180
01:14:39,120 --> 01:14:44,440
The interview was on YouTube, but Bill Maher in the interview with Howard Stern made a

1181
01:14:44,440 --> 01:14:49,360
reference to a lot of his old clips being scrubbed because, you know, it's that classic

1182
01:14:49,360 --> 01:14:52,240
thing of like, oh, people get so offended.

1183
01:14:52,240 --> 01:14:54,760
You know, it's like, well, anyways.

1184
01:14:54,760 --> 01:14:59,480
So the reason that I think it was scrubbed from YouTube is because Ben Affleck gets bored

1185
01:14:59,480 --> 01:15:02,640
listening to Josh Harris talk about purity culture.

1186
01:15:02,640 --> 01:15:05,760
So he starts sexually harassing Christine O'Donnell.

1187
01:15:05,760 --> 01:15:06,760
Oh no.

1188
01:15:06,760 --> 01:15:11,960
He probably thought it was flirting, but it's like, for the clips I was reading, I was like,

1189
01:15:11,960 --> 01:15:15,840
oh yeah, it's definitely not professional what he's saying to her.

1190
01:15:15,840 --> 01:15:18,080
Just basically like, would you have sex before marriage?

1191
01:15:18,080 --> 01:15:20,920
You having like, are you thinking about sex right now, Christine?

1192
01:15:20,920 --> 01:15:23,240
You know, just like, yeah.

1193
01:15:23,240 --> 01:15:26,920
So that makes me sad about J.Lo's choice.

1194
01:15:26,920 --> 01:15:28,200
Hopefully he's grown.

1195
01:15:28,200 --> 01:15:30,000
Allegedly he might not have.

1196
01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:38,840
But my tinfoil hat moment though is if you Google or YouTube politically incorrect Ben

1197
01:15:38,840 --> 01:15:44,600
Affleck, Josh Harris, there is another interview that comes up and he does interview a man

1198
01:15:44,600 --> 01:15:46,160
named Harris.

1199
01:15:46,160 --> 01:15:51,200
But in the interview, the man's being Islamophobic and Ben Affleck is defending Islam.

1200
01:15:51,200 --> 01:15:53,920
And he looks so much better in that interview.

1201
01:15:53,920 --> 01:15:59,800
It's almost like, but it's still recorded as Ben Affleck Harris politically incorrect

1202
01:15:59,800 --> 01:16:01,680
controversy in the SEO.

1203
01:16:01,680 --> 01:16:07,040
How often was Ben Affleck on the show?

1204
01:16:07,040 --> 01:16:08,040
A few times.

1205
01:16:08,040 --> 01:16:09,760
He was on the show a few times.

1206
01:16:09,760 --> 01:16:14,040
But it was weird to me because it almost feels perfectly meant to like cover up his faux

1207
01:16:14,040 --> 01:16:17,240
pas with Christine O'Donnell.

1208
01:16:17,240 --> 01:16:22,360
But that's a total side note and that's all alleged on my end because all I could find

1209
01:16:22,360 --> 01:16:24,120
was a transcript via Jezebel.

1210
01:16:24,120 --> 01:16:26,920
But kind of spicy, right?

1211
01:16:26,920 --> 01:16:27,920
I mean, yeah.

1212
01:16:27,920 --> 01:16:32,960
Also the fact that like you found it with a magazine called Jezebel, which is, you know,

1213
01:16:32,960 --> 01:16:34,400
very spicy.

1214
01:16:34,400 --> 01:16:36,120
I mean, have you read Jezebel?

1215
01:16:36,120 --> 01:16:37,120
Of course I have.

1216
01:16:37,120 --> 01:16:38,120
Okay.

1217
01:16:38,120 --> 01:16:39,120
I was like.

1218
01:16:39,120 --> 01:16:40,120
No, no, no, I have.

1219
01:16:40,120 --> 01:16:44,320
I'm just saying because, you know, like Jezebel and Christianity is.

1220
01:16:44,320 --> 01:16:45,320
She's a Christian icon.

1221
01:16:45,320 --> 01:16:48,800
A Christian icon, that's a great way to put it, Samuel.

1222
01:16:48,800 --> 01:16:51,800
Used as a weapon against women.

1223
01:16:51,800 --> 01:16:54,160
Super iconic, eaten by dogs.

1224
01:16:54,160 --> 01:16:56,400
I forgot that she got eaten by dogs.

1225
01:16:56,400 --> 01:16:59,160
How does that's like the thing people know about her?

1226
01:16:59,160 --> 01:17:04,160
There's just a lot going on in the book of Kings.

1227
01:17:04,160 --> 01:17:05,160
Is it Kings or Samuel?

1228
01:17:05,160 --> 01:17:06,160
Samuel!

1229
01:17:06,160 --> 01:17:07,160
Okay, sorry.

1230
01:17:07,160 --> 01:17:10,160
That was not intended to be a book.

1231
01:17:10,160 --> 01:17:12,360
No, it's got to be Kings, right?

1232
01:17:12,360 --> 01:17:17,240
Because like 2nd Samuel covers the reign of David and I feel like Kings is kind of like

1233
01:17:17,240 --> 01:17:18,400
a post-David world.

1234
01:17:18,400 --> 01:17:21,960
Like 2nd Samuel, there's Solomon and a little bit of.

1235
01:17:21,960 --> 01:17:26,080
Wow, we're like showing our.

1236
01:17:26,080 --> 01:17:29,520
I promise you guys I did Bible quizzing as a kid.

1237
01:17:29,520 --> 01:17:30,520
So did I.

1238
01:17:30,520 --> 01:17:32,160
I did 1st and 2nd Samuels.

1239
01:17:32,160 --> 01:17:34,200
That was actually one of my favorite years.

1240
01:17:34,200 --> 01:17:35,200
So did I.

1241
01:17:35,200 --> 01:17:37,880
That was also one of my favorite years.

1242
01:17:37,880 --> 01:17:40,720
Did you make it to the regional quiz that year?

1243
01:17:40,720 --> 01:17:41,920
Excuse me.

1244
01:17:41,920 --> 01:17:45,160
I made it to General Assembly.

1245
01:17:45,160 --> 01:17:46,160
Thank you very much.

1246
01:17:46,160 --> 01:17:50,080
Mary, you and I were in the same room in like the 20 somethings and the 20 odds.

1247
01:17:50,080 --> 01:17:52,320
I would have been like 12.

1248
01:17:52,320 --> 01:17:53,320
As would I.

1249
01:17:53,320 --> 01:17:56,320
Oh, we could have been friends.

1250
01:17:56,320 --> 01:17:57,920
We could have been friends.

1251
01:17:57,920 --> 01:18:02,960
But you know, probably our personalities need to mature another 10 years.

1252
01:18:02,960 --> 01:18:06,960
I would have been just telling you about how much I loved Revenge of the Sith, so it's

1253
01:18:06,960 --> 01:18:11,440
probably best that you didn't run into each other then.

1254
01:18:11,440 --> 01:18:13,480
I mean, I might have been with you.

1255
01:18:13,480 --> 01:18:15,360
Anyway, not this podcast.

1256
01:18:15,360 --> 01:18:17,280
This is about Star Wars.

1257
01:18:17,280 --> 01:18:18,280
It's not.

1258
01:18:18,280 --> 01:18:20,760
Although I can make anything about Star Wars.

1259
01:18:20,760 --> 01:18:25,360
Fortunately, I will move us to a conclusion because we are fortunately kind of wrapping

1260
01:18:25,360 --> 01:18:26,360
up here.

1261
01:18:26,360 --> 01:18:31,680
So yeah, I mean, it just really feels like Harris is trying to buy time for a word slash

1262
01:18:31,680 --> 01:18:36,200
page count, which is especially funny given that we're accidentally padding this podcast

1263
01:18:36,200 --> 01:18:37,200
too.

1264
01:18:37,200 --> 01:18:41,160
The final part of the book is just like Harris talking about how his own parents met and

1265
01:18:41,160 --> 01:18:44,040
then he's just like, I'm going to have a story of my own one day.

1266
01:18:44,040 --> 01:18:46,800
And boy, did he ever.

1267
01:18:46,800 --> 01:18:50,440
His epilogue is the beginning of Boy Meets Girl, which is his courtship book.

1268
01:18:50,440 --> 01:18:52,480
And it's about him courting his wife.

1269
01:18:52,480 --> 01:18:58,840
It's like a dramatization of his wife before she became Mrs. Josh Harris.

1270
01:18:58,840 --> 01:19:03,320
I wanted to I'll give a few final notes on where are they now.

1271
01:19:03,320 --> 01:19:08,480
Josh Harris now hosts a podcast called Clear and Loud, which focuses on business trends,

1272
01:19:08,480 --> 01:19:13,520
particularly clarity in message, which I thought was really funny.

1273
01:19:13,520 --> 01:19:17,800
I listened to an episode mainly because his daughter was a guest on it.

1274
01:19:17,800 --> 01:19:20,360
So I wanted to sort of see it was really cute.

1275
01:19:20,360 --> 01:19:23,080
Honestly, like they seem to have a good relationship.

1276
01:19:23,080 --> 01:19:24,680
His daughter is on Hinge.

1277
01:19:24,680 --> 01:19:28,680
So you know, or she was she was on the apps.

1278
01:19:28,680 --> 01:19:35,120
I think Harris kind of put himself into I think it was really good of him to remove

1279
01:19:35,120 --> 01:19:38,120
himself from the conversation of Christianity.

1280
01:19:38,120 --> 01:19:39,680
It's like business is business.

1281
01:19:39,680 --> 01:19:41,600
Let him do whatever he wants to there.

1282
01:19:41,600 --> 01:19:46,200
And he's he's kept his statement about his books on his site, which I think is good.

1283
01:19:46,200 --> 01:19:51,280
And it does seem like he's removed I Kissed Data Goodbye from new printing of books.

1284
01:19:51,280 --> 01:19:52,320
But here's the thing.

1285
01:19:52,320 --> 01:19:57,680
There's already a million plus of it out there, including the one I got from the library.

1286
01:19:57,680 --> 01:20:06,000
In the meanwhile, I also I preordered his Shannon Harris, his I believe ex wife.

1287
01:20:06,000 --> 01:20:07,000
I know they separated.

1288
01:20:07,000 --> 01:20:10,560
I don't always know how that works, though, if it's there's like a middle stage.

1289
01:20:10,560 --> 01:20:15,480
She is writing a book called The Woman They Wanted Shattering the Illusion of the Good

1290
01:20:15,480 --> 01:20:17,020
Christian Wife.

1291
01:20:17,020 --> 01:20:20,480
And I have hope that maybe it'll be a good Christian book.

1292
01:20:20,480 --> 01:20:26,280
She's on record saying that I Kissed Data Goodbye isn't a good book in the documentary.

1293
01:20:26,280 --> 01:20:27,280
I see I survived.

1294
01:20:27,280 --> 01:20:28,280
I Kissed Data Goodbye.

1295
01:20:28,280 --> 01:20:30,960
She's like, oh, you know, it was a good book.

1296
01:20:30,960 --> 01:20:34,900
And then she pauses and she's like, well, I wouldn't say it was a good book.

1297
01:20:34,900 --> 01:20:37,400
But you you cared a lot.

1298
01:20:37,400 --> 01:20:40,160
I don't know.

1299
01:20:40,160 --> 01:20:41,720
I'm rooting for her.

1300
01:20:41,720 --> 01:20:45,640
And we'll revisit it if it's just as harmful.

1301
01:20:45,640 --> 01:20:50,160
I think a lot of people point to this book as either the book that started off or really

1302
01:20:50,160 --> 01:20:55,680
like epitomized purity culture within the Christian Church.

1303
01:20:55,680 --> 01:21:01,300
And I'm curious, like your thoughts around was this the catalyst for was it a catalyst

1304
01:21:01,300 --> 01:21:05,880
or was it just like a result of the time that it was written in?

1305
01:21:05,880 --> 01:21:08,080
This was 100 percent a result of the time.

1306
01:21:08,080 --> 01:21:12,760
But like a lot of things, I think it became the Kleenex of purity culture.

1307
01:21:12,760 --> 01:21:15,400
At some point, people decide they should make disposable tissues.

1308
01:21:15,400 --> 01:21:18,640
But Kleenex is the one that becomes known for it.

1309
01:21:18,640 --> 01:21:19,960
It's a very similar sort of thing.

1310
01:21:19,960 --> 01:21:24,720
In fact, Harris is definitely not the first person to write even a book saying don't kiss

1311
01:21:24,720 --> 01:21:27,960
or at least write a publication.

1312
01:21:27,960 --> 01:21:32,880
He quotes a woman named Bethany Patchen's article called Don't Kiss Me.

1313
01:21:32,880 --> 01:21:35,920
The New York Times actually interviewed Patchen in 2011.

1314
01:21:35,920 --> 01:21:41,320
Guess how old Bethany Patchen was when she wrote Don't Kiss Me for Boundless, a web magazine

1315
01:21:41,320 --> 01:21:45,280
by Focus on the Family, saying that people shouldn't kiss until they're married.

1316
01:21:45,280 --> 01:21:47,600
I don't even know.

1317
01:21:47,600 --> 01:21:49,600
She was eight.

1318
01:21:49,600 --> 01:21:54,440
That's at least like slightly better.

1319
01:21:54,440 --> 01:21:59,360
Well, Patchen went on to marry Sam Turrode and together they wrote a book about contraception

1320
01:21:59,360 --> 01:22:02,160
called Open Embrace in 2002.

1321
01:22:02,160 --> 01:22:06,720
The Turrodes took a natural family planning approach to contraception, believing sex outside

1322
01:22:06,720 --> 01:22:10,600
of fertility cycles was okay, but other contraceptives were immoral.

1323
01:22:10,600 --> 01:22:16,480
In 2006, they retracted their support of natural family planning and in 2009, they got divorced

1324
01:22:16,480 --> 01:22:19,880
and Bethany took to using contraceptives.

1325
01:22:19,880 --> 01:22:24,680
They both ended up going, they still attended church at the time of the publication, but

1326
01:22:24,680 --> 01:22:27,440
they were now in much more liberal churches.

1327
01:22:27,440 --> 01:22:32,520
Bethany shared in her interview that her going so traditional was actually a way of rebelling

1328
01:22:32,520 --> 01:22:36,360
against her parents, who were actually pretty moderate evangelicals.

1329
01:22:36,360 --> 01:22:40,140
I share this story because it's like Josh's story in Microcosm.

1330
01:22:40,140 --> 01:22:46,080
You see this sometimes when culture gets more progressive and this is one reason why I think

1331
01:22:46,080 --> 01:22:53,040
counterculture for counterculture's sake is not always a good North Star, because for

1332
01:22:53,040 --> 01:23:02,880
Bethany Patchen and Josh Harris going super fear-based, some call it conservative, was

1333
01:23:02,880 --> 01:23:05,200
a way of being rebellious against their folks.

1334
01:23:05,200 --> 01:23:09,640
I think in Josh's case, what he was rebelling against specifically was it just really seems

1335
01:23:09,640 --> 01:23:14,880
from the narrative of his book that his parents were really pushing marriage on him, being

1336
01:23:14,880 --> 01:23:17,280
like, oh, have you found that special girl in your life?

1337
01:23:17,280 --> 01:23:20,520
Kind of like what you were talking about, Mary, which is it's hard to be single in the

1338
01:23:20,520 --> 01:23:21,520
church.

1339
01:23:21,520 --> 01:23:24,360
People give you a really hard time about it, especially if you're a woman, but I think

1340
01:23:24,360 --> 01:23:30,280
even for a guy like Josh getting to an age like 20, there starts to be this expectation.

1341
01:23:30,280 --> 01:23:35,900
So he created a narrative in which what he was doing was the most righteous thing and

1342
01:23:35,900 --> 01:23:38,320
couldn't be argued against.

1343
01:23:38,320 --> 01:23:42,840
So I guess my closing thing would be, you know, Mike Cosper of Christianity today in

1344
01:23:42,840 --> 01:23:48,720
the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast calls into question the role Christians allow Christian

1345
01:23:48,720 --> 01:23:51,440
celebrities to play in their worldview.

1346
01:23:51,440 --> 01:23:57,600
My question specifically is what factors lead to these celebrities getting platformed in

1347
01:23:57,600 --> 01:24:00,300
the first place?

1348
01:24:00,300 --> 01:24:06,180
It was hard to find who exactly picked up his book for Multnomah Publishing.

1349
01:24:06,180 --> 01:24:09,920
What exactly got him that extra mile?

1350
01:24:09,920 --> 01:24:13,360
Because I think there's a world where Josh Harris even writes I Kissed Daddy Goodbye,

1351
01:24:13,360 --> 01:24:16,160
maybe self publishes it, and it's whatever.

1352
01:24:16,160 --> 01:24:18,680
It's like, oh, my friend Josh wrote a book.

1353
01:24:18,680 --> 01:24:22,440
But this got really big really fast.

1354
01:24:22,440 --> 01:24:28,040
You know, there's like a reason why when you write a book, when you write an article, like

1355
01:24:28,040 --> 01:24:32,320
before the era of self publishing, before you wrote anything, that like there are editors

1356
01:24:32,320 --> 01:24:36,040
and there are coworkers and there are people who come around you and they're like, hey,

1357
01:24:36,040 --> 01:24:39,160
maybe like, don't phrase it that way.

1358
01:24:39,160 --> 01:24:42,960
Or like, have you ever thought of x, y, and z?

1359
01:24:42,960 --> 01:24:46,920
You know, I do think it's really easy for anyone.

1360
01:24:46,920 --> 01:24:54,120
If you're in a really bubble community to not have those voices that challenge your

1361
01:24:54,120 --> 01:24:56,120
own way of thinking.

1362
01:24:56,120 --> 01:25:02,460
And in my mind, that's where things get very dangerous, become very toxic.

1363
01:25:02,460 --> 01:25:06,360
And then you can you combine that with a platform.

1364
01:25:06,360 --> 01:25:07,560
Yeah.

1365
01:25:07,560 --> 01:25:09,360
I think that's really well said.

1366
01:25:09,360 --> 01:25:14,200
And I think that's I think we'll be digging into that even more as we look at all the

1367
01:25:14,200 --> 01:25:18,080
myriad people who have been platformed in that way.

1368
01:25:18,080 --> 01:25:22,400
Okay, Samuel, is I Kissed Daddy Goodbye a bad Christian book?

1369
01:25:22,400 --> 01:25:28,240
Without a doubt, even from an entertainment factor, it is not.

1370
01:25:28,240 --> 01:25:29,600
It was difficult to read.

1371
01:25:29,600 --> 01:25:34,640
It was like very easy to read in a sense of like it's written at a very accessible reading

1372
01:25:34,640 --> 01:25:41,920
level, but I pray it is it is neither clever nor fun.

1373
01:25:41,920 --> 01:25:44,640
Beyond not being particularly educational.

1374
01:25:44,640 --> 01:25:48,040
In fact, one could call it a bad education.

1375
01:25:48,040 --> 01:25:51,120
So now, yeah, it's a bad it's a bad book.

1376
01:25:51,120 --> 01:25:52,680
It's a bad Christian book.

1377
01:25:52,680 --> 01:25:53,680
Free content for us.

1378
01:25:53,680 --> 01:26:02,800
You know, it's worth going back 15 years to laugh at someone who thought sitting next

1379
01:26:02,800 --> 01:26:09,680
to a boy in the movie theater would like show up at my wedding, which I can guarantee you

1380
01:26:09,680 --> 01:26:11,280
it did it.

1381
01:26:11,280 --> 01:26:13,000
I can guarantee it as well.

1382
01:26:13,000 --> 01:26:18,800
But part of that is my Riz was so strong, I simply hadn't given my heart to anybody

1383
01:26:18,800 --> 01:26:20,600
until I met my wife.

1384
01:26:20,600 --> 01:26:23,600
Should we name some of the books or just like give out teases?

1385
01:26:23,600 --> 01:26:26,800
Yeah, we should we should we should share what's in store for this season.

1386
01:26:26,800 --> 01:26:30,800
I mean, hopefully we're going to be dropping a bunch at once so you can look at our feed.

1387
01:26:30,800 --> 01:26:31,800
Yeah.

1388
01:26:31,800 --> 01:26:39,640
I the book, I'll just be honest, a horrible book that hopefully will be at least 2% of

1389
01:26:39,640 --> 01:26:46,720
fun will is Every Young Woman's Battle that was the source of all of my teenage anxieties

1390
01:26:46,720 --> 01:26:48,480
and I reread it.

1391
01:26:48,480 --> 01:26:49,560
You're welcome.

1392
01:26:49,560 --> 01:26:59,080
But also like Dave Ramsey, who I did not know but there's there's some dirt and also some

1393
01:26:59,080 --> 01:27:04,880
very quirky ways of expressing boomer ideas.

1394
01:27:04,880 --> 01:27:08,680
We'll just put it that what's what's upcoming for you, Samuel.

1395
01:27:08,680 --> 01:27:14,680
Those boomers are so worked up, but they're not always goaded with the song.

1396
01:27:14,680 --> 01:27:21,480
Coming up, I will be covering more stuff in the realm of toxic masculinity and masculinity

1397
01:27:21,480 --> 01:27:26,840
in general with John Eldridge's book Wild at Heart, which I'm currently reading and I've

1398
01:27:26,840 --> 01:27:29,280
got to say I'm thoroughly enjoying it.

1399
01:27:29,280 --> 01:27:33,720
John Eldridge is a better writer than Josh Harris and when we cover Wild at Heart, you

1400
01:27:33,720 --> 01:27:36,040
will see just what a diss that is.

1401
01:27:36,040 --> 01:27:41,280
Should we say like, if you want to tell us what books we should review, like hit us up

1402
01:27:41,280 --> 01:27:46,800
on our social handles, which I think will be like at bad Christian books.

1403
01:27:46,800 --> 01:27:49,040
Hit us hit us up with recommendations.

1404
01:27:49,040 --> 01:27:51,120
We will take that very seriously.

1405
01:27:51,120 --> 01:27:52,800
What book destroyed your childhood?

1406
01:27:52,800 --> 01:27:53,800
Please tell us.

1407
01:27:53,800 --> 01:27:55,540
We'll read it for you so you don't have to.

1408
01:27:55,540 --> 01:27:56,540
So get psyched.

1409
01:27:56,540 --> 01:27:58,040
We have a lot more coming.

1410
01:27:58,040 --> 01:28:01,800
We hope you come visit us next time at the Christian bookstore dumpster because we've

1411
01:28:01,800 --> 01:28:30,360
got a lot more diving to do.