1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:22,000 Music 2 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:29,000 Hi Manola. Hi Leif. Hi. How are you? How are you doing? 3 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,000 I'm very good. I was very much looking forward to this. 4 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:40,000 Me too. I was really excited to have this conversation, especially we talked before. 5 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:48,000 You had a very interesting outlook about how sustainable leadership needs change. 6 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:55,000 That was a fascinating concept for me. Before we get into anything else, 7 00:00:55,000 --> 00:01:00,000 I was hoping you could give us a bit of background on your career 8 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:06,000 and what led you into the field. I found that fascinating when you told that to me as well. 9 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:13,000 Thank you so very much and thank you for the introduction. 10 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:19,000 It's been a journey filled with change, not surprisingly so. 11 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:26,000 Like I told you, I'm a journalist by trade and I stumbled into change management completely by accident. 12 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:33,000 I do believe that best things in life happen by accident than when you least expect them. 13 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:39,000 I worked as a business and as an investigative journalist for years. 14 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:47,000 Then I resigned. I went into PR and communications. I went into corporate affairs. 15 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:54,000 I ended up doing marketing and PR within the HR services industries. 16 00:01:54,000 --> 00:02:00,000 At some point I went into corporate consulting and I heard this change management. 17 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:12,000 When I started looking into it, I realized that I've been doing so many change management things without having the word for them. 18 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:16,000 Without being able to label them as such. 19 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:23,000 This was probably the first steep learning about change management. 20 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:33,000 That is something that we do intuitively. That is something that I do believe everyone has default settings for. 21 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:40,000 It's just a matter of becoming self-aware and becoming intentional about it. 22 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:48,000 And having the right words and the right experiences to recognize it. 23 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:57,000 A lot of these conversations, one of the common threads that we tend to pull on is self-awareness. 24 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:06,000 Being aware of what you're dealing with in terms of your leadership style, how you come off to other people, 25 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:11,000 what you're saying and how it's perceived. 26 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:20,000 Understanding also internally why are you so frustrated with the things that frustrate you when you look at another manager dealing with similar problems. 27 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:25,000 That's the least of his concerns. 28 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,000 True. Very, very true. 29 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:39,000 Just a couple of reflections on leadership and change management and quite potentially what they have in common. 30 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:49,000 Is that oftentimes, in search of optimization and efficiency and quick wins, 31 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:58,000 people tend to leap straight into conversations about methodologies and methods and tools and frameworks. 32 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:08,000 And I believe it's just human nature looking for structure and human nature looking for concrete things. 33 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:26,000 And like you said, there's a lot of value coming out of reflection and self-awareness and mindset and a lot of conversations and self-conversations about principles and values and value. 34 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:34,000 Because at the end of the day, you know, all methodologies and frameworks and tools, no matter how revolutionary or traditional they are, 35 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:39,000 are tools and a way of packaging things. 36 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:44,000 Right. Right. And also if you're not implementing them, they're all for nothing. 37 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:53,000 Absolutely. And also if you don't know what you're implementing them for, how do you know you're doing a good job? 38 00:04:53,000 --> 00:05:04,000 The intention is just as important. I think Bob, who was on our last Leaders Talk, a friend of yours as well, 39 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:10,000 Bob mentioned that the intention is just as important as any action. 40 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:19,000 It is. And I remember when we talked, we did open the conversation about intentionality. 41 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:27,000 And, you know, where does change management value come from and where leadership value comes from. 42 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:33,000 And intentionality, I believe, is key. 43 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:48,000 Right. And it's not just about, you know, would-intend or ill-intend, but it's about why do you do it and what's the intention behind it, be it strategic, be it personal, be it operational? 44 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:56,000 How is it going to affect our business objectives? How is it going to affect our personal objectives or relationship objectives? 45 00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:09,000 And based on how it's going to affect those things is going to affect, you know, how you take the action, how you word things, how you deal with things, and who you involve even. 46 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:14,000 Yeah. It's funny that you mentioned who you involve. 47 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:24,000 I've been involved in a series of conversations around stakeholder management, you know, stakeholder analysis and stakeholder management. 48 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:32,000 And it also ties into what we touched on very, very early on in today's conversation. 49 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:39,000 Oftentimes, I sit in stakeholder analysis and mapping exercises and workshops. 50 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:52,000 And I listen to people, you know, being very dedicated and committed to defining and understanding and analyzing and mapping influence and impact and all those fancy tools. 51 00:06:52,000 --> 00:07:00,000 And towards the end of the conversation, it's almost, you know, like the mic drop moment. 52 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:08,000 I asked them, okay, so how long does this list need to get before you list yourselves? 53 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:16,000 And, you know, just like with storytelling, for example, going back to my journalistic days, it's the same with intention. 54 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:21,000 It's not only outward looking. 55 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:33,000 It is also inward looking. And the most important stories and the most important intentions are the ones that, you know, we tell ourselves and we build for ourselves. 56 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:46,000 I love that perspective because, you know, you have a lot of entrepreneurs and you have a lot of managers that are, they have that really significant sense of ownership. 57 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:54,000 And the sense of ownership is a double-edged sword because you tend to forget about serving yourself as well. 58 00:07:54,000 --> 00:08:03,000 I know a lot of my friends who have launched businesses, me included, where we forget to compensate ourselves. 59 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:05,000 We're not even in the equation. 60 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:07,000 Yeah. 61 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,000 And that's a big mistake, too. 62 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:22,000 Absolutely. And I can give you another quite, you know, classic example of unintentional self-exclusion. 63 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:32,000 You hear talks about employee experience and try to have conversations about employee experience with people within HR. 64 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:41,000 And I did raise the question, like, unless I'm completely oblivious to something, HR people are employees, too. 65 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:46,000 So where are they in this employee experience journey? 66 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:51,000 And how do they map themselves? 67 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:56,000 That's true. Yeah. I think we often forget to use this. 68 00:08:56,000 --> 00:09:03,000 I actually have seen this. It's a very common mistake that you see in companies is they've written KPIs for the sales teams. 69 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:07,000 They've written KPIs for the marketing teams. Anything that drives cash, right? 70 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:16,000 But they neglect not only HR, but they also tend to neglect, like, let's say, internal service departments, IT and so on. 71 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:41,000 But then you have these multinationals where they have gone above and beyond and they have really thought about these things to the point where they offer compensation to these service departments in terms of, you know, some of them call it the ABC Award, where if you've saved the company a certain amount of money, you know, you get incentivized with a percentage of the savings. 72 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:53,000 And in a way, it's commission for people who normally, or let's say, cost centers that normally tend to just accumulate expenses rather than drive any cash influx. 73 00:09:53,000 --> 00:10:06,000 That's true. That's very true. And it reminds me of a book I read many, many years ago, and it was the beginning of my change management work within IT. 74 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:23,000 And, you know, IT, just like a lot of other support functions, their work tends to be perceived as purely transactional. 75 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:40,000 And the book is called Benefits Management, and it actually shifts the conversation into delivering value and into opening, you know, opening the conversation not to purely quantitative KPIs. 76 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:59,000 And when you put qualitative KPIs into the conversation, that opens up new perspectives. And like, like we chatted a little bit before, don't lie, it shifts the conversation from deliverable to outcome and from time sheets to value. 77 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:00,000 Right. 78 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:11,000 And I believe COVID accelerated a lot of long overdue recognition to support functions. 79 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:21,000 And I hope that is, you know, beyond washing hands and taking care of ourselves. 80 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:22,000 I do. 81 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:26,000 I hope that will remain beyond COVID. 82 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,000 Yes. 83 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:41,000 No, I mean, you've actually seen a lot of things that we were talking earlier, how COVID and remote work as funny as it's, you know, reduced human physical interaction. 84 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:50,000 It's actually created a more human atmosphere and respect for each other's personal lives as well. 85 00:11:50,000 --> 00:12:08,000 I think I had mentioned the example of, you know, I've developed this relationship with my team at Spartan that I normally I think I would not have had it not been for me in a way being in their homes virtually during our, you know, daily meeting. 86 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:21,000 And I see that one has their dog barking in the background and I see one has, you know, the renovation happening in their house and like I have the only text because it's too loud here for me to respond vocally. 87 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:27,000 And it made us more, way more understanding if someone comes in late. 88 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:43,000 And, and I think another conversation is, is it really sustainable to have attendance be the ultimate guide for for performance. 89 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:51,000 Well, I know that this sounds like a yes or no question. 90 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:58,000 But like all great questions, you know, it opens a layered response. 91 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:02,000 There are industries. 92 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:17,000 And there are functions across industries where attendance and or remote work is is a given that's non-negotiable because of the type and the content of the activity. 93 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,000 Right. 94 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:34,000 But at the end of the day, the conversation for me is about the purpose and the intention of work and and the use of workspace. 95 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:53,000 And listening to all the talks and principles around future of work. It becomes clear and clear that there's no one size fits all not even within the same company. 96 00:13:53,000 --> 00:14:22,000 And we are trying to find organizational solutions for some deeply personal journeys and how we relate to work. And this whole work life, rebalance and and blending is also raises challenges regarding attendance and definition of efficiency and the meaning of the time sheets. 97 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:33,000 Yeah. Well, I mean, if you look at the history as well of of, you know, the eight to eight to five work hour that was that was created during the industrial revolution. 98 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:43,000 You know, that's that was in a time of war where, you know, you needed more control over the employees and the workers. 99 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:53,000 But it's it's not it can't be the standard across every industry. Some industries and, you know, they might work three to four hours a day. 100 00:14:53,000 --> 00:15:00,000 And that's more than enough to bring in enough cash to cover your expenses and make some margin. 101 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:07,000 But when you look at more traditional industries, let's say logistics transportation FMCG. 102 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:28,000 These these need more than the normal work hours, more than more than that eight to five. I mean, if you're not in the market constantly trying to, you know, continue to build the relationship with your customers, follow up cash collections and so on, then you're, you know, you're going to fall behind with your competition. 103 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,000 Absolutely. 104 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:37,000 Absolutely. I remember. 105 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:52,000 I remember a conversation for many years ago regarding how you can trigger change and how you can trigger conversations about change and I was reminded recently of this because 106 00:15:52,000 --> 00:16:03,000 I am trying to find a solution to start talking about change without this conversation being a disruption in itself. 107 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:14,000 Because the reaction is, you know, when people hear change and change management, they drive. Okay, so what's what's coming now that we need to be so intentional about it. 108 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:20,000 And the trick is to say, you know, it's, it's nothing. 109 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:31,000 We don't know what's coming. I mean, to all intents and purposes look, look at COVID. Yeah, so we don't know what's coming and and book eyes is the reality here to stay. 110 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:44,000 It's been here for a long time but I think we're just fully realizing what it means and how permanent it is. 111 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:58,000 And there are people who naturally embrace change and there are industries who are naturally, you know, risk and change addicts. 112 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:07,000 And then there are very traditional approaches and very traditional industries and there's an amazing book. 113 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:24,000 And I mentioned this when we talked, it's called the leopard. And, and he talks about how the city and a riskocracy had to change their whole social systems and social networking in order to keep their lifestyle after the the 114 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:41,000 resort, the Italian work for independence. And I oftentimes start my change management workshop saying that in order for things to stay the same, we need to change. And you see, you know, there's there's a moment though, you know, what, what have we just heard. 115 00:17:41,000 --> 00:18:02,000 But then you start to talk about, hey, if we want to keep market share, yeah, or competitive advantage, we need to change how maybe we define our customers or how we define our processes or how we define, you know, the value that we deliver to each other and 116 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:14,000 to customers. And I think that also ties into, you know, with sustainability. Sustainability is not keeping things the same. 117 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:23,000 But sustainability is being able to adapt and being able to adapt proactively. 118 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:30,000 Just adapting reactively that that's also losing a little bit of value. 119 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:42,000 Right. You're going to we're going to need these, you know, future sustainable leaders to be able to identify the changes that are happening in real time. 120 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:56,000 And, and I feel like technology, not, you know, let's say, aside from COVID and everything like that technology is creating changes way faster than we could have expected and then it's just been majorly sped up with COVID. 121 00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:02,000 We need people who can take raw data and really see what's happening. 122 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:07,000 And I think that's going to be a key competency in future leaders as well. 123 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:20,000 Not only taking the data, but what, what, what can we do with this data and how can we make our business more adaptable on a on a quicker scale. 124 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:27,000 Data literacy is definitely a skill for the future. 125 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:36,000 What what I've seen is that just being able to read data is not enough. 126 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:50,000 Data without context only gives you a snapshot and it doesn't give you, you know, a look into trends, or it doesn't give you anything qualitative. 127 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:54,000 It gives you a lot of quantitative things. 128 00:19:54,000 --> 00:20:02,000 Regarding regarding technologies is definitely a critical tool, but it is a tool. 129 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:13,000 And, and one of the questions, especially in technology adoption or in technology driven transformation is how do we relate to technology. 130 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:21,000 Are we using it as an enabler and accelerator, or are we allowing it to be a trigger. 131 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:28,000 And, and that depend that that really drives what we want out of it. 132 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,000 True, true. 133 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:42,000 I'll give you an example we talked about marketing. Yeah, so how do you go about, you know, your CRM tool. 134 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:59,000 Do you look at your, you know, strategy, do you look at your marketing strategy or your, you know, end to end sales process, and you choose a technology that best serves, you know, your 135 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:05,000 strategy and your operations, or do you go for the latest and greatest. 136 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:16,000 And, you know, the technology lingo makes you believe that technology will solve your problem. 137 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:33,000 It really helps you solve your problem because you might end up with this UFO CRM, and you still need to do your, your market segmentation and you still need to do you know your, your product strategy and you still need to do your, your, you know, go to 138 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:49,000 your marketing strategy. The CRM will not help you with that thinking, it will prompt your thinking by putting in front of you, you know, a lot of fields that you need to fill in with information. 139 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:56,000 But it will not give you the answer it will give you a structure to make sense of your answers but it will not do the thinking for you. 140 00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:06,000 That's right. No, and actually, I think I've been dealing with a similar problem with, with actually the recruitment industry. 141 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:15,000 I mean, there are companies now that are launching that are AI kind of ATS systems, applicant tracking systems now. 142 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:23,000 And I would be approaching clients because we do things, definitely we use modern recruitment methods. 143 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:41,000 The problem though is when I approach a client and they start to tell me, you know, we use this brand new AI system out, like, I'm sorry, are you saying you trust your AI more than you trust your gut feeling that has allowed us to survive for, you know, millions of years, you know, 144 00:22:41,000 --> 00:23:04,000 so it's, you can't take the people out of the HR, you can't. I mean, AI will only be able to make judgment calls based on the data that you feed it, you know, but people are the best judge of people, and that will never change. 145 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:18,000 That is, that is true. You know, the, the intelligent combination is business intelligence with artificial intelligence and emotional intelligence. 146 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:23,000 I believe that's the intelligent mix of sustainability. 147 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,000 Yeah. 148 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:32,000 Yeah, and you, I mean, you, you have people that specialize in certain things regardless. 149 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:41,000 Whatever it might be, let's say it's sales. Let's say it's anything, but to really be good at sales, you can't be a program. 150 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:52,000 Like, you know, you were telling me that you have to be able to adapt change, you have to be, you know, that's the true leadership skill is change above all else. 151 00:23:52,000 --> 00:24:00,000 So if your client comes to you with something that wasn't programmed into your brain, let's say, how is an AI supposed to answer. 152 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:07,000 So sales is just as much a human function within organizations as HR. 153 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:17,000 You're dealing with people, you're dealing with emotions, you're dealing with people that are having a bad day, which is not a factor that you can predict or control. 154 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,000 It's not a controlled environment. 155 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:40,000 And being able to adapt based on the body language that you're reading, based on asking a question based on the body language to understand why someone displaying this body language is so much further beyond your standard AI or your programming. 156 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:57,000 And a true leader from what I think we both agree on is the adaptability and the capability to change in instant moments as well as long term strategy. 157 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:08,000 That's very true and listening to you for some reason to unrelated stories or examples rent to my mind. 158 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:16,000 One of them. And I think it's this ties back into people's need for something concrete. 159 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:25,000 And the same thing that drives them towards talking about change in terms of methodologies and tools. 160 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:37,000 Probably it's the same principle that drives them to survey and oftentimes over survey because that's data, you know, numbers and percentages. 161 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:47,000 And you know, liquor scales and you have, you know, fourth distribution, and you have NPS, boring, then what have you. 162 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:57,000 But unless you get context for that through. And here's breaking news through conversations. 163 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:16,000 That's that's a snapshot and it might be misleading. It might be misleading. So that that is one. And the second regarding body language and the ability to change is not just the ability to change. 164 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:29,000 To whatever is happening, but is also the ability to change in such a way that your self awareness of your mindset or of your mood that they does not impact other people. 165 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:34,000 And I will give you an example and this is this is true story. 166 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:47,000 There was a company going through massive transformation. And it was one of those cases when transformation initiative really meant downsizing. 167 00:26:47,000 --> 00:27:00,000 Yeah, so it was a fancy way, and not that much straightforward to say that people will be sent home. 168 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:19,000 One of the very, very senior leaders came to the office one day and literally walked, you know, through the open area without saying anything went into into went into his office and 169 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:32,000 you know, shut the door and just said they're super quiet for the entire rest of the day, which was unusual. And people thought that there was something happening. 170 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:58,000 And the rest of the day they were updating their CDs and 171 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:03,000 another thing that is interesting. 172 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:09,000 Another concept regarding change management and being able to adapt to change. 173 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:27,000 And the conversations that when all I was talking about was is basically if you have an employee a salesperson that's normally a top performer and they start to draw in their performance. 174 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:32,000 Hi Manola, I'm Manola sorry. 175 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:37,000 I was my left side to have a nervous breakdown, but I'm back. 176 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:54,000 So I was I was kind of freestyling for a second. And I was talking in terms of the conversations and getting back on to, you know, not always being a quantitative factor, whether you decide let's say, let's fire someone because 177 00:28:54,000 --> 00:29:05,000 they're a top salesperson and now the performance dropped. Okay, now they're not good anymore. You know, quantum in terms of, you know, quanta quantifying it. Yeah, okay, they're not justified anymore. 178 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:18,000 But if you sit down and you have a human interaction with them and say, hey, look, normally your sales are at peak, you're one of the top salespeople but lately the past two to three months. 179 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:32,000 We've been seeing that you're not achieving any of your targets. Yeah, what's going on with you. Right. There's a human question that you can't get through numbers. So what's going on with you. It could be a personal problem. 180 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:55,000 There's a, there's a very famous short video of Simon Sinek. And he explains how this empathy sound like in an office. And it goes like, you haven't reached your sales target for the past three months, if this happens again in this quarter I don't know what kind of conversation we will have. 181 00:29:55,000 --> 00:30:08,000 So that's no empathy. Whereas empathy sounds like you've been, you've been quite behind on your targets for the past three months. What's going on. How can I help. 182 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:21,000 Right. And going back to what I was just saying before the technology hiccup I, I often say that I won't be impressed with technology until I can download ice cream so when that happens. 183 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:25,000 It will be a good day for change management. 184 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:39,000 But you know how a leader acts impacts the team. And I've seen so many examples recently, teams, literally grow into the energy of their leaders. 185 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:56,000 And if they're having a bad day and oh and the bad leaders behavior was prompted by a huge fight he had with with his mom that morning it had nothing to do with business related realities. 186 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,000 Yeah, people completely misread it. 187 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,000 Right. 188 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:20,000 And I don't think that, okay, figures are accurate. I wouldn't say that figures are true because you make them true depending on why and how you interpret them. 189 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:31,000 They are accurate, but they don't give you the the entire picture. Another example from from a project and it was a technology implementation project. 190 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,000 We put together KPIs. 191 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:46,000 The sponsors and the steering committee they only said okay to quantity KPIs because that's concrete, you know, and come go live. 192 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:52,000 We looked at the number of requests placed with a health center. 193 00:31:52,000 --> 00:32:00,000 And, you know, huge panic, we had 137 tickets. 194 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:06,000 Okay, from a population of close to 3000 so that wasn't necessarily that bad. 195 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:16,000 But when we looked at the content of those tickets, there were literally two questions asked by 137. 196 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:28,000 And one of them, you know, made us realize that there was a last minute week made by the vendor the solution vendor that did not reach the training people. 197 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:35,000 And you know that the training materials were not updated. 198 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:43,000 But we could have been, you know, panicked forever for having 137 tickets raised within the first week. 199 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,000 Yeah. 200 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:57,000 I think in situations like that it can easily be embarrassing or you can easily mitigate that situation and this goes back to being adaptable to situations right. 201 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:09,000 You see enough questions being raised and I think if you sometimes take ownership and that's take ownership like hey, yeah, we did miss this. 202 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,000 And we will get back to you. 203 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:16,000 We'll send you an email at the end of the training with the correct data. 204 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,000 Then you've mitigated the problem accurately. 205 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,000 Yeah. 206 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:33,000 I see a comment in just now so we have to be ready for change when changing is necessary or we shall always be ready for change as a process. 207 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:38,000 I would say that we should always be ready for change. 208 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:48,000 I would argue a little bit on change as a process and I will say why I believe change is something that we are built for. 209 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:56,000 If we start, you know, with our very own biology and the cell regeneration processes if you want. 210 00:33:56,000 --> 00:34:00,000 So change is something extremely natural. 211 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:24,000 One thing that that is a challenge to change managers is the fact that people have this sense making reflex of thinking in in start date and end date, because that gives them comfort that gives them a way of pacing themselves. 212 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,000 That gives them a sense of progress. 213 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:28,000 Yeah. 214 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:33,000 So, I would say that change is a reality. 215 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:50,000 We manage it through processes and we manage it with tools, but change is the fluid constant reality of our personal lives of our businesses and of our lives. 216 00:34:50,000 --> 00:35:10,000 And if nothing else go the proof that that change is ongoing, and there is no real, full proof accurate way of saying when something starts and something ends. 217 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:20,000 Yeah, amazing lady she she delivers change management executive training at the university in the US. 218 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:29,000 And she starts all her lectures saying that project management has a start date and an end date. 219 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:36,000 Change management has a spark date, which is actually an end. 220 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:40,000 I believe that and how things were done. 221 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:41,000 Exactly. 222 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:42,000 Yeah. 223 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:43,000 Exactly. 224 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:51,000 So to to answer a little bit in a more structured process driven, given way. 225 00:35:51,000 --> 00:36:10,000 We should always be ready for change. And we should also be flexible about the processes methodologies and tools that we want to use to manage it because it depends on the industry. 226 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:19,000 It depends on the maturity level of the business. It depends on personal appetite for change. 227 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:24,000 It depends on the gap between where we are and where we want to be. 228 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:36,000 Yeah, process methodology tools conversation is secondary to what is our intention for change and what is our appetite for change. 229 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:44,000 Well, I mean if you think about it like this as well I mean every business is this rule of thumb is if you're not growing you're falling behind. 230 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:45,000 Right. 231 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:50,000 So that's a general rule of thumb. I don't think it's always accurate. 232 00:36:50,000 --> 00:37:00,000 However, if you are supposed to be continuously growing you're going to need more manpower you're going to need constantly be updating your technology that you're using. 233 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:12,000 How many companies can any of us name from the top of our head that have updated their ERP systems and how much of a change process did that involve. 234 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:17,000 Sometimes a lot of companies don't have the people that know how to use let's say SAP. 235 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:30,000 So they have to hire someone in specific departments, wherever they're weak to implement the data migration to the new ERP system. 236 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:34,000 Someone with that transfer experience into the new system. 237 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:46,000 So that alone is a situation of change but also hiring anyone, anyone whether they're a junior in the department or whether they're a manager, especially if they're a manager. 238 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:50,000 It's going to take a level of adaptation. 239 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,000 Your client base is going to grow. 240 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:57,000 That's going to require an adaptation as well. 241 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,000 Anything you do really I mean life. 242 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:08,000 How many conversations have anyone had throughout their life where let's say a friend stops talking to you when you're in high school. 243 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,000 You start to get dramatic about it. 244 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:14,000 And then you know what's the number one thing your parents tell you. 245 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:15,000 Ah, make new friends. 246 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:16,000 It's change. 247 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,000 Change is normal. 248 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:19,000 Yeah. 249 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,000 Change is definitely normal. 250 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:39,000 And, you know, looking looking back at what happens what what I think it's also important is to leave room for the unexpected. 251 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,000 So plan as much as you can. 252 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,000 You know, expect the unexpected. 253 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:55,000 But at the same time, do not get yourself into mind tracks. 254 00:38:55,000 --> 00:39:06,000 And the example that I that I give most often is, you know, in winter, how cars get out of the parking lot. 255 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:17,000 The first car that has to go through, you know, version 10, 10 centimeter highs. No, you know, it's not that that okay. 256 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:30,000 The second one still can steer a little bit to the right to the left and change course but by the time you know the 10th is six car wants to leave, especially if the tracks have been frozen. 257 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,000 It's quite difficult to change direction. 258 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:42,000 So, don't, don't think in such a way that you become the 26 car. 259 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:46,000 Yeah, and it's difficult to change direction. 260 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:47,000 Yeah. 261 00:39:47,000 --> 00:40:00,000 I hope that that we we answered the question to some degree. 262 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:15,000 You, you mentioned, you know, companies, companies changing and companies changing technology and yes technologies is a is a big conversation but 263 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,000 we talk about data literacy. 264 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:28,000 And one of the questions that that I raise in in a, in a meeting recently at work is, you know, we talk about the future of work. 265 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:38,000 And how can we make sure that we also talk about the future of people. 266 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:47,000 Yeah, I think that's that's an equally critical conversation. 267 00:40:47,000 --> 00:41:02,000 And it's not just about the technology and it's not just about the work spaces and it's not just about the ways of working, but it's about how we relate differently to one another. 268 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:08,000 How we perceive ourselves and how we perceive others and how others perceive us. 269 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:19,000 And this is probably, in my opinion, going to become one of the most important things and the good news, though, is that emotional intelligence can be developed. 270 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:24,000 It's not like IQ. 271 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:26,000 But it takes a conscious effort. 272 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:28,000 It takes it, you know, a daily. 273 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,000 Okay, I said this to this person. 274 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:35,000 They reacted this way and not blame someone for reacting. 275 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:40,000 But instead ask, maybe if I said it this way, what was the problem for me? 276 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,000 If so, how can I avoid that? 277 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:47,000 You know, like, but it takes a sense of ownership and mistakes. 278 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,000 It takes a sense of ownership and creating conflict sometimes. 279 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:59,000 And we have a natural tendency to, you know, push the blame somewhere else. 280 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:13,000 Yeah, so funny that you mentioned this, a very, very enjoyable and inspiring recent conversation was about disagreement. 281 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:20,000 And, and how oftentimes we put this equal sign between disagreement and conflict. 282 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,000 And it's not the same. 283 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:42,000 And how do we go about expressing disagreement and what that space, you know, between not expressing it in the heat of the moment, but at the same time, not, not letting it faster either until become it becomes this additional entity into a relationship 284 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:46,000 personal or professional equally. 285 00:42:46,000 --> 00:43:01,000 And for some reason, we lost the ability of having conversations covering different viewpoints in an inclusive and intentionally inclusive manner. 286 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:06,000 And I'm not talking just about very sensitive topics. 287 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,000 I'm talking about every day stuff. 288 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:24,000 I'm talking about saying, I have a different experience or I have a different opinion because or from where I stand this, this looks like this. 289 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:36,000 And, you know, being being open to disagreement, I think it's, it's the highest expression of diversity and inclusion. 290 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:53,000 That is diversity of thought and diversity of opinion, which is built on having as many and as diverse people around us possible and being intentional about having that. 291 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:55,000 Right. 292 00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:59,000 And that's a guarantee of sustainability. 293 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:14,000 But like you said, I mean, I'm just going to circle back here but you know, the biggest part of being a sustainable leader is you I mean you hit the nail on the head when you said it's self awareness. 294 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:24,000 But you can't be self aware if you're not honest with yourself and having that open conversation consistently with everyone else. 295 00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:35,000 Yeah, there is a word that almost got the status of taboo in the business world. 296 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:41,000 And that's humble and humility. 297 00:44:41,000 --> 00:45:03,000 There is this amazing quote and I was, I was trying to remember who said it but I will, I will try to remember it or find it that being humble is not about thinking less of yourself, but it's about thinking of yourself less. 298 00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:22,000 And that kind of, you know, stayed with me and I can go into, I can grow into my own space and respecting and acknowledging and appreciating the same thing for everyone around me. 299 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:36,000 And I remember I refreshed my memory with the attributes of sustainable leaders and humility was one of them. 300 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:45,000 Humility is very important. And I've heard it a lot lately. Not lately. I mean, since I started my career. 301 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:54,000 Actually, but you don't see it practiced as often as, you know, as we talk about it. 302 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:59,000 It's, and that's the sad truth. 303 00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:05,000 Being humble is not what we're naturally inclined to do. 304 00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:28,000 You know, because, you know, we were, we were for the right reasons. Oftentimes, yeah, we were pushed to compete, and we were pushed to prove ourselves and we were pushed to achieve things. 305 00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:37,000 We were pushed, you know, for deliverables and we were pushed for project management and we were pushed for KPIs. 306 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:43,000 Right. A variety of perspectives and again for all the right reasons. 307 00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:44,000 Right. 308 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:55,000 But at the same time, we do also have a natural tendency to seek qualitative KPIs in our life. 309 00:46:55,000 --> 00:47:03,000 And that doesn't come from bank accounts. 310 00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:04,000 Right. 311 00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:05,000 Right. 312 00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:24,000 But, but you know, I think we need to, I mean, if I could change one thing about work environments, it would be maybe not change, but let's say motivate and, and, and, you know, get it the ball rolling with a little bit more. 313 00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:31,000 Focus is building in a culture of collaboration. 314 00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:39,000 Don't only incentivize for single-handed achievements, but also incentivize for supporting others, you know. 315 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:50,000 And I think that's just as if not more important than the single-handed achievement incentivization. 316 00:47:50,000 --> 00:48:00,000 Well, if we look at the title of place conversation, you know, sustainable leadership, 317 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:14,000 I believe sustainability is also about how you go about defining your legacy. 318 00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:31,000 What's your legacy of a PNL spreadsheet or people that you inspired to grow other people with direct impact into your PNL spreadsheet. 319 00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:32,000 Right. 320 00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:34,000 Yeah. 321 00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:48,000 And I believe that's true sustainability. And I believe that, you know, a statement of the highest value legacy that you could have. 322 00:48:48,000 --> 00:49:06,000 And that is leadership. And this is a message that's very important to me. That's leadership beyond hierarchy, beyond role, beyond status, beyond age, beyond seniority. 323 00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:07,000 Right. 324 00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:24,000 And that's, you know, how you touch people. Oftentimes, you know, leadership is associated with an executive corner office or, you know, senior or executive in your title. 325 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:32,000 Also, we all know what marketing executive really means when you start out your career. 326 00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:55,000 I honestly believe that leadership is not only about inspiring and motivating people to follow your ideas, but it's more importantly about inspiring and motivating others to follow their ideas. 327 00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:56,000 Right. 328 00:49:56,000 --> 00:50:08,000 And that's, that's to me is sustainability. And then, you know, change management is really a secondary conversation and. 329 00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:12,000 You know, people ask me what change management is. 330 00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:31,000 I said, well, what do you need the definition for if you want a colorful, very nice, impactful, PowerPoint slide, Google it, and you can find, you know, a three word definition or a three paragraph definition. 331 00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:45,000 But for me is sense making. And my biggest biggest learning for change management goes back to my journalistic background. And that was a training in community if you want. 332 00:50:45,000 --> 00:51:02,000 And that was what I learned. And my truth is that I am just as good as I can make sense to other people. 333 00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:19,000 And I honestly believe that storytelling was a sustainable leadership for change management for diversity and inclusion for all the big things of our lives. Storytelling is a critical sense making literacy. 334 00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:43,000 And I think I told you this and it sounds funny coming from a change manager. But my dream is that there will be people living in a world where conversations about sustainability and diversity and inclusion and change management will not happen because 335 00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:57,000 there will be present and embedded in the very reality of the life and of the world. And there will not need to be addressed. 336 00:51:57,000 --> 00:52:19,000 That's true. Well, I mean, I think I'm so think I want to thank you for being on with us today. And I think we're running close to the end, but I just wanted to ask you if you want to leave us with words of wisdom from your experience. 337 00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:29,000 Anything that can just keep us going and doing our jobs the best that we can. 338 00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:38,000 Well, first and foremost, thank you so very much for the invite and thank you all for joining in. 339 00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:57,000 I would just say that changes is not here to stay change has always been here and change has always been with us and in us. 340 00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:13,000 And there is a, there is a quote that I absolutely love that goes that if nothing ever changed, we wouldn't have butterflies. 341 00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:29,000 And, you know, don't forget that we are all our most senior stakeholders in any change. 342 00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:32,000 Thank you so much, Manola. Thank you. 343 00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:45,000 Thank you. Have a great day and thank you for anyone watching and interested in sustainable leadership and especially change management. Have a great night. 344 00:53:45,000 --> 00:54:03,000 Thank you so much. Bye everyone.