1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:28,020 Hello Mr. Reganon, it is great to be with you. 2 00:00:28,020 --> 00:00:30,020 Thank you very much for the invitation. I appreciate it. 3 00:00:30,020 --> 00:00:38,020 I'm really happy to have you here. I have lots of questions. I'm very excited about 4 00:00:38,020 --> 00:00:43,940 the topic of intelligent disobedience because it's, I felt, you know, throughout my career 5 00:00:43,940 --> 00:00:48,020 I felt very disobedient so I think it applies to me pretty well. 6 00:00:48,020 --> 00:00:52,280 I have been too. Most of the time it's been intelligent but I've had my moments when 7 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:55,980 it isn't so it's good to learn from those. 8 00:00:55,980 --> 00:01:01,900 So you've done, you've been a LinkedIn Learning instructor, you've written a book. 9 00:01:01,900 --> 00:01:04,100 You have a copy of that? 10 00:01:04,100 --> 00:01:05,260 I sure do. 11 00:01:05,260 --> 00:01:06,260 Intelligent disobedience. 12 00:01:06,260 --> 00:01:10,260 Intelligent disobedience, the difference between good and great leaders. 13 00:01:10,260 --> 00:01:11,260 Yes. 14 00:01:11,260 --> 00:01:17,300 I've worked with a number of, yeah, I worked with a number of people and I found the best 15 00:01:17,300 --> 00:01:22,420 leaders that I've worked with are those that know when to bake or bend the rules. 16 00:01:22,420 --> 00:01:28,300 I mean a good business process will work 98% of the time, a good one. 17 00:01:28,300 --> 00:01:32,460 The question is what you do during the other two when whatever's happening or whatever 18 00:01:32,460 --> 00:01:39,340 the circumstance that that process is intended to produce is an outcome isn't going to happen. 19 00:01:39,340 --> 00:01:40,620 What do you do then? 20 00:01:40,620 --> 00:01:45,780 And I think the best leaders know the best way themselves or to lead their teams to bend 21 00:01:45,780 --> 00:01:50,940 the rules, break the rules, do things different to get the outcome that those processes were 22 00:01:50,940 --> 00:01:56,820 intended to produce or in some instances get a better outcome upon which you can then build 23 00:01:56,820 --> 00:01:58,940 new processes for your business. 24 00:01:58,940 --> 00:02:00,420 Right, right. 25 00:02:00,420 --> 00:02:05,660 And then there was this, sorry there's so many things that I want to talk about but 26 00:02:05,660 --> 00:02:13,740 I wanted to first ask a bit about your background because I know that you're currently working 27 00:02:13,740 --> 00:02:18,220 with something called Curated Culture and as well you're working with something called 28 00:02:18,220 --> 00:02:22,660 Gwen Pinnington so if you can just give us a bit of background on these two. 29 00:02:22,660 --> 00:02:23,660 Sure, sure. 30 00:02:23,660 --> 00:02:29,940 First of all I've worked for IBM for 18 years so you know very conservative sort of a company 31 00:02:29,940 --> 00:02:35,860 and sort of learned about intelligent disobedience even within that context and then started 32 00:02:35,860 --> 00:02:40,580 my own project management training consulting business which I sold about four years ago. 33 00:02:40,580 --> 00:02:45,140 I then started another business called Intelligent Disobedience which is associated with the 34 00:02:45,140 --> 00:02:47,220 writing of the book. 35 00:02:47,220 --> 00:02:52,060 And from there I also do some work with some other organizations that I feel are really 36 00:02:52,060 --> 00:03:01,340 striving to develop leaders and reduce toxicity in the corporate environment and working with 37 00:03:01,340 --> 00:03:06,460 Gwen Pinnington who I've known for 10 years who does a lot of fabulous work and a leadership 38 00:03:06,460 --> 00:03:13,340 model we call Compassionship so taking compassion into a leadership model and then Curated Culture 39 00:03:13,340 --> 00:03:21,340 is looking at different ways in which you could develop culture within the organization 40 00:03:21,340 --> 00:03:24,540 that ultimately suits the mission of the organization, the people of the organization 41 00:03:24,540 --> 00:03:29,300 but also what it is that you're intending to present yourself to the marketplace. 42 00:03:29,300 --> 00:03:32,340 So we're not saying A culture is the right culture. 43 00:03:32,340 --> 00:03:35,500 In fact the whole idea of Curated Culture is like the collection. 44 00:03:35,500 --> 00:03:39,740 We collect and try to understand different cultures that we could lay out and discuss 45 00:03:39,740 --> 00:03:45,540 with people and then ultimately help them look at their own point of departure and what 46 00:03:45,540 --> 00:03:54,220 their point of arrival should be for a more productive, more peaceful, less toxic culture 47 00:03:54,220 --> 00:03:59,100 and then help them on the steps that they need to go through to get there. 48 00:03:59,100 --> 00:04:00,100 That's not easy. 49 00:04:00,100 --> 00:04:05,580 I mean you have these traditional businesses that tend to go down the I told you to do 50 00:04:05,580 --> 00:04:08,100 this or do it. 51 00:04:08,100 --> 00:04:14,580 And I think that's very much along the lines of what you've written, what you've consulted 52 00:04:14,580 --> 00:04:15,580 on. 53 00:04:15,580 --> 00:04:20,620 It is very much a subjective exercise. 54 00:04:20,620 --> 00:04:24,700 I mean culture and what it should be and why we do Curated Culture and give them other 55 00:04:24,700 --> 00:04:30,380 options is part of that but then the whole idea of intelligent disobedience also falls 56 00:04:30,380 --> 00:04:32,020 into that as well. 57 00:04:32,020 --> 00:04:37,140 What's intelligent disobedience in one organization isn't necessarily in another. 58 00:04:37,140 --> 00:04:41,900 So to give you an example and use maybe two ends of the continuum. 59 00:04:41,900 --> 00:04:51,740 If I am managing let's say the electric grid in a major city, I don't want to make changes 60 00:04:51,740 --> 00:04:54,580 willy nilly on the fly, try things and see what happens. 61 00:04:54,580 --> 00:04:57,220 I mean I may take the power down at a hospital. 62 00:04:57,220 --> 00:04:58,220 So I have to plan. 63 00:04:58,220 --> 00:04:59,980 I have to be very, very diligent. 64 00:04:59,980 --> 00:05:02,700 You may have to do some modeling that sort of thing before you're going to make a change 65 00:05:02,700 --> 00:05:06,100 to an electric power grid. 66 00:05:06,100 --> 00:05:11,300 If you're in Google and you can change the parameters of your search engine five times 67 00:05:11,300 --> 00:05:14,260 a day to see what happens. 68 00:05:14,260 --> 00:05:18,660 An entirely different environment in which you can engage in intelligent disobedience 69 00:05:18,660 --> 00:05:20,900 when you take those two things. 70 00:05:20,900 --> 00:05:27,420 So the concept is there but how you apply the concept is very subjective to the environment 71 00:05:27,420 --> 00:05:28,420 you're in. 72 00:05:28,420 --> 00:05:32,980 And from an individual standpoint where you sit in the organization what your own risk 73 00:05:32,980 --> 00:05:35,700 appetite might be also comes into play. 74 00:05:35,700 --> 00:05:42,220 So I don't ever claim to be an expert in intelligent disobedience by the way. 75 00:05:42,220 --> 00:05:49,180 I'm a story collector and a story sharer about this concept as a tool in which we can get 76 00:05:49,180 --> 00:05:51,220 better outcomes. 77 00:05:51,220 --> 00:05:54,460 And so I love having conversations like this and having you ask me questions because I 78 00:05:54,460 --> 00:05:56,460 might learn from this as well. 79 00:05:56,460 --> 00:06:06,500 I'm already starting to pick up on a couple of things but there was a YouTube video that 80 00:06:06,500 --> 00:06:08,500 you recently did speaking of stories. 81 00:06:08,500 --> 00:06:15,820 And the story really clicked and it made intelligent disobedience very clear for me. 82 00:06:15,820 --> 00:06:20,140 It's a story about the chapter dog, the seeing eye dog. 83 00:06:20,140 --> 00:06:21,140 Yes. 84 00:06:21,140 --> 00:06:24,820 And it's how I learned the phrase intelligent disobedience which comes from the world of 85 00:06:24,820 --> 00:06:25,820 seeing eye dog. 86 00:06:25,820 --> 00:06:30,980 You spend 18 months training a seeing eye dog to behave and the next 12 to 18 months teaching 87 00:06:30,980 --> 00:06:34,060 it when and how not to behave. 88 00:06:34,060 --> 00:06:39,540 So if you picture you're at a street corner and you have your seeing eye dog who's on 89 00:06:39,540 --> 00:06:44,220 a rigid harness and you hear like many signals in major cities around the world right now 90 00:06:44,220 --> 00:06:48,260 have an audible tone associated with walk and don't walk. 91 00:06:48,260 --> 00:06:53,140 And you hear the tone turn to walk and you command the dog to go forward. 92 00:06:53,140 --> 00:06:57,660 You call an electric car that's very quiet maybe coming around the corner or pulled away 93 00:06:57,660 --> 00:07:07,260 from the curb and the dog will disobey its master and stop as a means of preventing them 94 00:07:07,260 --> 00:07:12,260 from the danger of the car but ultimately getting them to the goal they want to get 95 00:07:12,260 --> 00:07:16,460 to which is getting to the other side of the street safely. 96 00:07:16,460 --> 00:07:22,500 So that's the concept of intelligent disobedience and Chap was a dog that actually prevented 97 00:07:22,500 --> 00:07:28,660 his master from going on to an elevator which had failed because the elevator floor was maybe 98 00:07:28,660 --> 00:07:32,900 30 centimeters below the floor that we were standing on. 99 00:07:32,900 --> 00:07:34,420 And what I saw that dog do is amazing. 100 00:07:34,420 --> 00:07:39,100 I had hardly figured out what it is that was going on and Chap the dog jumped literally 101 00:07:39,100 --> 00:07:47,980 jumped 90 degrees and created a hurdle around in front of which his master could not move. 102 00:07:47,980 --> 00:07:52,700 And I talked to his master about what it is that was happening and said that was really 103 00:07:52,700 --> 00:07:58,900 amazing and that dog is pretty incredible of how quickly he reacted to the situation. 104 00:07:58,900 --> 00:08:00,180 And he said something I'll never forget. 105 00:08:00,180 --> 00:08:05,340 He said Chap is the most obedient dog I've ever had. 106 00:08:05,340 --> 00:08:12,700 But when he disobeys me you can bet I'm going to obey him because he has information I don't 107 00:08:12,700 --> 00:08:13,700 have. 108 00:08:13,700 --> 00:08:16,300 He has information I don't have. 109 00:08:16,300 --> 00:08:21,820 Take that concept and put it into the business world where you have managers that aren't 110 00:08:21,820 --> 00:08:23,740 on the cold face of what it is that's going on. 111 00:08:23,740 --> 00:08:25,660 They're not in the day-to-day business. 112 00:08:25,660 --> 00:08:29,700 They have information that the employees don't have based on maybe some strategy, different 113 00:08:29,700 --> 00:08:32,580 directions, status with customers, whatever the case may be. 114 00:08:32,580 --> 00:08:36,500 But by the same token, the people that report to a manager are going to have a different 115 00:08:36,500 --> 00:08:40,380 perspective on the business, the processes, how they're working, how they're not working, 116 00:08:40,380 --> 00:08:43,740 what the tone is from customers. 117 00:08:43,740 --> 00:08:47,540 If they're in general conversation like at a service desk or something like that, there's 118 00:08:47,540 --> 00:08:52,260 information to be shared to create better outcomes. 119 00:08:52,260 --> 00:08:55,780 And intelligent disobedience, I think, is a way to bring that to bear. 120 00:08:55,780 --> 00:08:58,100 It's not something you're going to do every day. 121 00:08:58,100 --> 00:09:06,660 It's going to be for a certain outcome that isn't going to be realized by normal means. 122 00:09:06,660 --> 00:09:09,580 By the way, there is an opposite to intelligent disobedience. 123 00:09:09,580 --> 00:09:12,900 I don't know if you saw that in the YouTube because I don't think I mentioned it. 124 00:09:12,900 --> 00:09:19,460 The opposite of intelligent disobedience is malicious obedience. 125 00:09:19,460 --> 00:09:20,660 You can hear it. 126 00:09:20,660 --> 00:09:22,180 It sounds like this. 127 00:09:22,180 --> 00:09:29,020 Okay, Leith, if that's what you want me to do, that's what I'll do. 128 00:09:29,020 --> 00:09:34,620 And you follow the process literally knowing that whatever it is is going to go right off 129 00:09:34,620 --> 00:09:36,620 the end of the cliff. 130 00:09:36,620 --> 00:09:44,300 I think everyone has been guilty of doing that at some point. 131 00:09:44,300 --> 00:09:45,300 It happens. 132 00:09:45,300 --> 00:09:52,100 But the flow of information back and forth reminded me that the last time we talked, 133 00:09:52,100 --> 00:09:56,100 you mentioned that in general had actually called you from the U.S. Army. 134 00:09:56,100 --> 00:09:59,860 In general, it's a colonel. 135 00:09:59,860 --> 00:10:04,300 That's an interesting story as well because I have delivered intelligent disobedience 136 00:10:04,300 --> 00:10:11,020 workshops for the U.S. Army special forces, so the Green Berets, in their training school. 137 00:10:11,020 --> 00:10:16,580 And when Colonel Tuland called me about this and said he'd want me to do workshop, potentially 138 00:10:16,580 --> 00:10:20,780 look at doing workshops for him, I was really confused to be honest with you. 139 00:10:20,780 --> 00:10:24,220 I said, wait a minute, intelligent disobedience and the armed forces, and you teach people 140 00:10:24,220 --> 00:10:25,220 to obey orders. 141 00:10:25,220 --> 00:10:27,740 And he said, that's exactly the problem. 142 00:10:27,740 --> 00:10:32,380 He said, in special forces, we're putting people into, we're putting our troops into, 143 00:10:32,380 --> 00:10:36,660 well, special, unusual situations, it's not normal warfare. 144 00:10:36,660 --> 00:10:38,380 And normally they have intelligence. 145 00:10:38,380 --> 00:10:43,460 We give them what it is we think the scene is and what they're going to run into. 146 00:10:43,460 --> 00:10:46,380 And often it's slightly off. 147 00:10:46,380 --> 00:10:49,980 Sometimes there's bits of it that are right and bits of it that are wrong. 148 00:10:49,980 --> 00:10:55,860 And what we need these special people, these really highly trained troops to do, is obey 149 00:10:55,860 --> 00:11:01,980 the orders we should have given them if we knew what they knew when they get on the ground. 150 00:11:01,980 --> 00:11:07,900 It is almost a perfect parallel to the seeing eye dog concept. 151 00:11:07,900 --> 00:11:09,940 Don't follow my orders. 152 00:11:09,940 --> 00:11:11,780 Follow the orders we should have given you. 153 00:11:11,780 --> 00:11:17,980 But the issue is, is that the people that go into the armed forces are so drilled on 154 00:11:17,980 --> 00:11:23,860 following orders, that the idea of doing that, even the vocabulary around which to describe 155 00:11:23,860 --> 00:11:27,020 it, is something that they don't have. 156 00:11:27,020 --> 00:11:33,180 And it's created suboptimal outcomes and maybe led to other things like PTSD that they're 157 00:11:33,180 --> 00:11:34,180 concerned about. 158 00:11:34,180 --> 00:11:40,180 So we were working with the troops to grasp this concept of intelligent disobedience, 159 00:11:40,180 --> 00:11:45,100 try to create a vocabulary around it so they can have some discussions of the context under 160 00:11:45,100 --> 00:11:50,300 which the orders were given and what the intent was. 161 00:11:50,300 --> 00:11:56,500 And to focus on the intent, not necessarily the process, because the process may change 162 00:11:56,500 --> 00:11:57,500 once they get on the ground. 163 00:11:57,500 --> 00:11:58,500 Right. 164 00:11:58,500 --> 00:12:02,500 And you see this across many organizations, the same problem like you said earlier. 165 00:12:02,500 --> 00:12:06,500 I mean, it's funny enough it's a pandemic. 166 00:12:06,500 --> 00:12:07,500 It is funny. 167 00:12:07,500 --> 00:12:08,500 You're right. 168 00:12:08,500 --> 00:12:09,500 You're right. 169 00:12:09,500 --> 00:12:13,380 And it's been with us much longer than COVID, I'm afraid. 170 00:12:13,380 --> 00:12:19,300 And in some cases, it's just a weakness in the manager's part that they have to know everything 171 00:12:19,300 --> 00:12:22,260 and they feel uncomfortable when they don't. 172 00:12:22,260 --> 00:12:28,380 It may be because the nature of the business is such that you really do have to follow 173 00:12:28,380 --> 00:12:32,780 process or you believe you have to follow process. 174 00:12:32,780 --> 00:12:36,580 And let me tell you what I mean by believe you have to follow process. 175 00:12:36,580 --> 00:12:39,700 I've done a lot of work with banks and in financial industry. 176 00:12:39,700 --> 00:12:45,020 And there's a lot of reporting that banks need to produce, particularly investment 177 00:12:45,020 --> 00:12:49,580 banking and that sort of thing is to, you know, what they're doing to protect clients, 178 00:12:49,580 --> 00:12:51,260 money, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 179 00:12:51,260 --> 00:12:52,260 Right. 180 00:12:52,260 --> 00:12:53,260 Prevent money laundering, that sort of thing. 181 00:12:53,260 --> 00:12:56,300 So you have to produce a lot of reports. 182 00:12:56,300 --> 00:13:03,540 In most cases, the process by which you go through to produce that report is not regulated. 183 00:13:03,540 --> 00:13:06,700 It's just the report that's regulated. 184 00:13:06,700 --> 00:13:14,460 You could use, you know, three PhDs or 87 chimpanzees to produce the report. 185 00:13:14,460 --> 00:13:15,780 It doesn't matter. 186 00:13:15,780 --> 00:13:18,720 It's just if the report's accurate, you're fine. 187 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:25,060 But a lot of organizations will somehow elevate the whole process of creating the report as 188 00:13:25,060 --> 00:13:32,500 being regulatory, which makes it difficult to apply intelligent disobedience to it. 189 00:13:32,500 --> 00:13:34,380 But you can. 190 00:13:34,380 --> 00:13:40,020 And it's sometimes a matter of just picking apart the process and the outcome and understanding 191 00:13:40,020 --> 00:13:42,300 what's regulated and what's not. 192 00:13:42,300 --> 00:13:46,740 And they're determining what space you've got for intelligent disobedience. 193 00:13:46,740 --> 00:13:47,740 But it takes a lot of homework. 194 00:13:47,740 --> 00:13:48,900 You can't do that wrong. 195 00:13:48,900 --> 00:13:53,500 If you're in the pharmaceutical industry developing vaccines, speaking about COVID, right, that 196 00:13:53,500 --> 00:13:56,980 process is highly regulated as well as the output in the reports. 197 00:13:56,980 --> 00:14:01,660 So you don't, it wouldn't be intelligent disobedience to take shortcuts in that or to do something 198 00:14:01,660 --> 00:14:02,820 different. 199 00:14:02,820 --> 00:14:05,020 But that's not often the case. 200 00:14:05,020 --> 00:14:08,900 It is in some instances, but not often. 201 00:14:08,900 --> 00:14:14,540 One thing you just mentioned was actually a very sensitive topic. 202 00:14:14,540 --> 00:14:24,580 In my opinion, is knowing when your team is enacting intelligent disobedience, how would 203 00:14:24,580 --> 00:14:30,700 you recommend a manager gives that faith and trust in the team to go against what he said 204 00:14:30,700 --> 00:14:32,940 or she said? 205 00:14:32,940 --> 00:14:33,940 In steps. 206 00:14:33,940 --> 00:14:35,940 Let's start there. 207 00:14:35,940 --> 00:14:37,500 It's not binary. 208 00:14:37,500 --> 00:14:38,500 It's not binary. 209 00:14:38,500 --> 00:14:40,060 It's like, okay, here you go. 210 00:14:40,060 --> 00:14:42,860 You've got free reign now. 211 00:14:42,860 --> 00:14:47,140 There's actually in the book, one of the chapters I have in the book is actually a growth path 212 00:14:47,140 --> 00:14:54,660 that's just specifically geared towards giving people some leeway with intelligent disobedience. 213 00:14:54,660 --> 00:15:01,060 So it starts with you can vary steps in a process, but we don't want you to start a new process 214 00:15:01,060 --> 00:15:02,060 altogether. 215 00:15:02,060 --> 00:15:11,060 And it might be you can vary step one, three, five, and seven, but don't vary step eight. 216 00:15:11,060 --> 00:15:14,340 And then you get a little more leeway to vary the process. 217 00:15:14,340 --> 00:15:18,620 And then you get a little more leeway to break the process altogether in certain circumstances. 218 00:15:18,620 --> 00:15:28,340 Or you may have your financial delegation maybe X, but you can go X plus 15 percent 219 00:15:28,340 --> 00:15:31,180 if you're to execute a task. 220 00:15:31,180 --> 00:15:35,620 If you see a special circumstance, you don't need to ask my permission, but you need to 221 00:15:35,620 --> 00:15:38,620 tell me you did it and give me the rationale thereafter. 222 00:15:38,620 --> 00:15:41,860 And then I as the leader, the manager can work with you on whether that was the right 223 00:15:41,860 --> 00:15:44,180 thing or not and sort of adjust your thinking. 224 00:15:44,180 --> 00:15:49,300 So over time, your acts of intelligence, disobedience get more and more sound because 225 00:15:49,300 --> 00:15:55,660 there's always dialogue between the manager and their employee around those actions. 226 00:15:55,660 --> 00:16:02,780 So that's just one sort of a stream of thought that says, it's something that you can regulate, 227 00:16:02,780 --> 00:16:08,260 put boundaries on, and then slowly widen those boundaries as you see those decisions 228 00:16:08,260 --> 00:16:13,300 coming back being sound and things that you as a leader would have done yourself. 229 00:16:13,300 --> 00:16:15,940 Their thought process is there. 230 00:16:15,940 --> 00:16:21,660 But then there's some other people that are very, very good employees, but they absolutely 231 00:16:21,660 --> 00:16:22,660 need those rules. 232 00:16:22,660 --> 00:16:30,260 I mean, very kind giving people who will give away the store because they're very empathetic 233 00:16:30,260 --> 00:16:32,740 or very compassionate about people. 234 00:16:32,740 --> 00:16:36,820 And it's like, all right, well, I'm not supposed to give you that, but I will. 235 00:16:36,820 --> 00:16:41,780 And they're doing it and what they think is really a good thing to do, but their personality 236 00:16:41,780 --> 00:16:47,700 and disposition doesn't have the right balance of long term business impact of doing something 237 00:16:47,700 --> 00:16:48,700 like that. 238 00:16:48,700 --> 00:16:54,620 So I don't endorse intelligent disobedience being given out, you know, like bits of chewing 239 00:16:54,620 --> 00:16:56,780 gum or something to everybody. 240 00:16:56,780 --> 00:17:01,980 You know, here's candy or a donut at lunch or whatever the case may be or for a break. 241 00:17:01,980 --> 00:17:05,900 I think you have to be very mindful of the people's personalities and then bring them 242 00:17:05,900 --> 00:17:06,900 along. 243 00:17:06,900 --> 00:17:10,420 It's not just turn the switch on and they can engage in intelligent disobedience. 244 00:17:10,420 --> 00:17:11,420 Right. 245 00:17:11,420 --> 00:17:14,780 They really need to understand the business from the inside and out or whatever they're 246 00:17:14,780 --> 00:17:15,780 doing. 247 00:17:15,780 --> 00:17:20,700 If it's not a business, they need to really understand every single detail for them to 248 00:17:20,700 --> 00:17:22,140 make that sound judgment. 249 00:17:22,140 --> 00:17:28,540 And I think exactly another thing that it seems to be a common thread here is communication 250 00:17:28,540 --> 00:17:29,540 flow. 251 00:17:29,540 --> 00:17:38,420 But it's okay to disobey as long as you're informing and keeping that open communication. 252 00:17:38,420 --> 00:17:39,900 This is a fascinating topic. 253 00:17:39,900 --> 00:17:44,860 We could talk about this for an hour and I always have a grin on my face because I do 254 00:17:44,860 --> 00:17:50,540 a presentation called the rules for breaking the rules. 255 00:17:50,540 --> 00:17:53,780 These are the rules for breaking the rules and intelligent disobedience. 256 00:17:53,780 --> 00:17:58,700 And one of them is you don't do this in stealth. 257 00:17:58,700 --> 00:18:03,700 When you've engaged in an act of intelligent disobedience, you tell people you've done 258 00:18:03,700 --> 00:18:07,700 it and if you could tell them in advance, you think it's the right thing to do, that's 259 00:18:07,700 --> 00:18:08,700 best. 260 00:18:08,700 --> 00:18:16,900 Now, inevitably and appropriately, by the way, someone will say, Bob, I've heard more 261 00:18:16,900 --> 00:18:22,780 than one manager say sometimes it's easier to get forgiveness than permission. 262 00:18:22,780 --> 00:18:30,660 Yeah, that's actually an accurate statement and I support that. 263 00:18:30,660 --> 00:18:35,660 So what I try to do is say, look, it's a judgment call. 264 00:18:35,660 --> 00:18:41,940 I think whenever you possibly can, communicating ahead of time or communicating afterwards, 265 00:18:41,940 --> 00:18:48,740 said you engaged in an act of intelligent disobedience is the best way to proceed. 266 00:18:48,740 --> 00:18:56,460 But I hesitate to make a blanket statement that says there aren't times when taking the 267 00:18:56,460 --> 00:19:00,820 Nike approach or just do it. 268 00:19:00,820 --> 00:19:07,860 And if the outcome turns out right, no one's going to know the difference. 269 00:19:07,860 --> 00:19:13,340 It's probably okay and there are managers that have done applied very good judgment as 270 00:19:13,340 --> 00:19:16,220 to when to do that. 271 00:19:16,220 --> 00:19:23,220 And so I nod my head and I say, yes, that's a story I will share and it's a story I endorse 272 00:19:23,220 --> 00:19:27,940 and it's a story I can say I've done once in a while myself. 273 00:19:27,940 --> 00:19:33,460 But I really don't want to become the guy with a reputation that just sneaks behind 274 00:19:33,460 --> 00:19:38,540 the door or under the desk and does something that no one can see. 275 00:19:38,540 --> 00:19:40,900 I'd want to have some justification. 276 00:19:40,900 --> 00:19:48,980 If I was challenged later to say, why did you do that and not tell anybody, I want to 277 00:19:48,980 --> 00:19:51,060 have a very good answer. 278 00:19:51,060 --> 00:19:54,780 If I don't have a good answer other than I didn't want to be bothered because someone 279 00:19:54,780 --> 00:20:01,060 would question me about it, then I would refrain from doing that. 280 00:20:01,060 --> 00:20:06,180 But it's a viable approach to intelligent disobedience, quite honestly. 281 00:20:06,180 --> 00:20:19,900 It's super fascinating, I really enjoyed this topic more than many other leadership studies. 282 00:20:19,900 --> 00:20:27,700 It's correct to say that I'm going to take this action regardless ahead of time, especially 283 00:20:27,700 --> 00:20:35,540 when it's a really sensitive thing and you're really walking that gray area. 284 00:20:35,540 --> 00:20:38,820 And like you said, it's just a matter of judgment. 285 00:20:38,820 --> 00:20:39,820 It's a judgment call. 286 00:20:39,820 --> 00:20:44,780 It is, but I do worry about one thing you said and I don't want to pick on the language. 287 00:20:44,780 --> 00:20:50,020 I'm going to do this regardless, scares me. 288 00:20:50,020 --> 00:20:58,300 In fact, the third chapter of my book is on the ethics of intelligent disobedience and 289 00:20:58,300 --> 00:21:00,660 it was the hardest thing for me to write. 290 00:21:00,660 --> 00:21:06,300 Not because I found it difficult to write it and share, I want it to be very complete. 291 00:21:06,300 --> 00:21:10,740 I don't want this book or a talk like this that you and I are having the people listen 292 00:21:10,740 --> 00:21:17,540 to to be an excuse that people can use for bad behavior. 293 00:21:17,540 --> 00:21:20,820 I would never say take that action regardless. 294 00:21:20,820 --> 00:21:26,420 You have to have regard for a lot of things, other people, the integrity of your business, 295 00:21:26,420 --> 00:21:32,260 your short-term risks, your long-term risks, whether you're breaking the law or not because 296 00:21:32,260 --> 00:21:35,220 sometimes if you're not knowledgeable enough that you could be doing that. 297 00:21:35,220 --> 00:21:38,620 That should be an obvious red flag. 298 00:21:38,620 --> 00:21:40,140 It's yeah. 299 00:21:40,140 --> 00:21:41,380 Yes. 300 00:21:41,380 --> 00:21:44,740 Not a line I want to cross. 301 00:21:44,740 --> 00:21:51,060 Let's talk about the ethics, the guidelines of ethics within intelligent disobedience. 302 00:21:51,060 --> 00:21:53,300 That would be fascinating. 303 00:21:53,300 --> 00:21:54,300 Sure. 304 00:21:54,300 --> 00:21:59,940 First and foremost, it is to advance the business not yourself. 305 00:21:59,940 --> 00:22:06,060 This is not something that I am suggesting for self-promotion. 306 00:22:06,060 --> 00:22:08,140 It's for the benefit of the business. 307 00:22:08,140 --> 00:22:14,020 Now, you might get some good positive attention because of the outcome and what it is that 308 00:22:14,020 --> 00:22:15,020 you did. 309 00:22:15,020 --> 00:22:19,780 I have no problem with that, but that's not the primary reason you do it. 310 00:22:19,780 --> 00:22:24,340 The justification of an active intelligent disobedience is to advance something for the 311 00:22:24,340 --> 00:22:28,660 organization for which you work. 312 00:22:28,660 --> 00:22:31,180 That's first and foremost. 313 00:22:31,180 --> 00:22:38,060 Second, it's not an excuse to lie. 314 00:22:38,060 --> 00:22:43,460 If I have decided to do something in stealth, an active intelligent disobedience and not 315 00:22:43,460 --> 00:22:49,020 discuss it with my manager and I'm challenged, I'm going to tell the truth. 316 00:22:49,020 --> 00:22:50,020 This is why I did it. 317 00:22:50,020 --> 00:22:52,100 This is why I didn't tell you. 318 00:22:52,100 --> 00:22:53,340 All right? 319 00:22:53,340 --> 00:22:59,820 So it's not an opportunity to lie or it's not intended to be. 320 00:22:59,820 --> 00:23:06,060 Third, it is not an excuse for passive aggressive behavior. 321 00:23:06,060 --> 00:23:11,500 I do not want to hear stories of people sitting at a meeting and say, yes, they'll do something, 322 00:23:11,500 --> 00:23:16,540 thinking that's a horrible idea, walk out of the meeting room and then not follow what 323 00:23:16,540 --> 00:23:20,940 they just agreed to in the meeting room because I think it's dumb. 324 00:23:20,940 --> 00:23:26,220 The intelligent disobedience act to take in that case is to challenge that direction in 325 00:23:26,220 --> 00:23:32,220 the meeting room or in a subsequent conversation with the leader thereafter and say, boss, 326 00:23:32,220 --> 00:23:37,780 maybe this is not the appropriate thing, normal thing to do, but I don't agree with this. 327 00:23:37,780 --> 00:23:43,500 Here's my truth and I use that term very consciously. 328 00:23:43,500 --> 00:23:46,520 Here's my perception based on my experience. 329 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,940 That manager may have other information that you don't know. 330 00:23:49,940 --> 00:23:54,180 It allows her or him to put their truth on the table. 331 00:23:54,180 --> 00:23:58,420 You then look at that greater sense of truth and can make it the best decision as to how 332 00:23:58,420 --> 00:23:59,420 to go forward. 333 00:23:59,420 --> 00:24:03,580 I think one of the things that we do, particularly if we're passionate about something, is we 334 00:24:03,580 --> 00:24:07,820 make the mistake of thinking our truth is the truth. 335 00:24:07,820 --> 00:24:14,940 Our truth is from our experience and our victories and our failures, but if I'm working with 336 00:24:14,940 --> 00:24:18,700 the team or I'm working with the manager, there's other dialogue that they're in, there's 337 00:24:18,700 --> 00:24:22,440 other conversations they're in, there's information they may not have, and they have a different 338 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:28,260 set of victories and not so victorious moments than I do. 339 00:24:28,260 --> 00:24:33,660 Determining the best way to go forward is best performed by putting the greatest set 340 00:24:33,660 --> 00:24:36,060 of truth on the table. 341 00:24:36,060 --> 00:24:40,300 That's the truth and then you make a decision from there. 342 00:24:40,300 --> 00:24:43,860 It's about the collective, the curative. 343 00:24:43,860 --> 00:24:46,860 The curating truth in this case, exactly. 344 00:24:46,860 --> 00:24:47,860 Yes. 345 00:24:47,860 --> 00:24:48,860 Yes. 346 00:24:48,860 --> 00:24:53,860 It's kind of similar actually, just reminding me of how I've known that someone will tell 347 00:24:53,860 --> 00:24:56,980 you, don't rely on one new source for all your information. 348 00:24:56,980 --> 00:24:57,980 There is bias. 349 00:24:57,980 --> 00:24:58,980 We're all human. 350 00:24:58,980 --> 00:25:04,540 So, gather from multiple sources, collect the common information, and then make a sound 351 00:25:04,540 --> 00:25:08,540 assessment on your opinion regarding the topic. 352 00:25:08,540 --> 00:25:09,540 Absolutely. 353 00:25:09,540 --> 00:25:11,540 Absolutely. 354 00:25:11,540 --> 00:25:17,300 Without naming names, there are different news sources on this planet which would make 355 00:25:17,300 --> 00:25:19,820 you think we're on different planets. 356 00:25:19,820 --> 00:25:25,940 If you're listening to just one or the other, it's like, wow, it is really, really different. 357 00:25:25,940 --> 00:25:26,940 So yes. 358 00:25:26,940 --> 00:25:27,940 Yes. 359 00:25:27,940 --> 00:25:31,700 Unfortunately, the idea of collecting news and making opinions is a lot more work than 360 00:25:31,700 --> 00:25:34,020 it used to be as a result. 361 00:25:34,020 --> 00:25:35,020 True. 362 00:25:35,020 --> 00:25:36,020 True. 363 00:25:36,020 --> 00:25:40,580 I mean, even in teams, it's a lot of work because you have to sit and you have to, even 364 00:25:40,580 --> 00:25:45,140 if you're passionate, like you said, you're also passionate to argue your case. 365 00:25:45,140 --> 00:25:50,780 So it's hard to suppress yourself for a moment just to listen to the other perspective. 366 00:25:50,780 --> 00:25:54,060 And that's very energy consuming as well. 367 00:25:54,060 --> 00:25:55,060 It is. 368 00:25:55,060 --> 00:25:59,660 But I really try to take the approach that says, you know, someone say, I need help with 369 00:25:59,660 --> 00:26:02,740 influencing my manager to make this decision. 370 00:26:02,740 --> 00:26:09,460 And I went, I think that's making an assumption that your truth is the truth. 371 00:26:09,460 --> 00:26:12,140 Because they may have other information and it may not be the good decision. 372 00:26:12,140 --> 00:26:18,780 And if had you known that, the statement you just made to me, you wouldn't have said. 373 00:26:18,780 --> 00:26:23,460 So take the approach that says, I want to put my truth on the table. 374 00:26:23,460 --> 00:26:28,420 I want to make it the greatest and best invitation for the people I'm working with to put their 375 00:26:28,420 --> 00:26:30,620 truths on the table. 376 00:26:30,620 --> 00:26:35,020 And then we'll see what we kind of influence needs to be applied to what kind of decision 377 00:26:35,020 --> 00:26:36,020 to make. 378 00:26:36,020 --> 00:26:37,020 Yeah. 379 00:26:37,020 --> 00:26:40,140 So in the sake of a team, it's not about who's right and who's wrong. 380 00:26:40,140 --> 00:26:42,620 It's about the good of the team, like you said. 381 00:26:42,620 --> 00:26:48,900 And you really have to have the wider perspective of whatever the situation is that they might 382 00:26:48,900 --> 00:26:51,300 be handling or the initiative. 383 00:26:51,300 --> 00:26:52,300 Yeah. 384 00:26:52,300 --> 00:27:02,660 And in accepting that truth is the core of what we're talking about now with diversity, 385 00:27:02,660 --> 00:27:05,020 inclusion and acceptance, right? 386 00:27:05,020 --> 00:27:09,220 I mean, it's one thing to have a numbers game that says, I got this many people of this 387 00:27:09,220 --> 00:27:13,140 origin or that origin or this religion or male or female or whatever the case may be. 388 00:27:13,140 --> 00:27:14,140 Okay. 389 00:27:14,140 --> 00:27:15,140 Great. 390 00:27:15,140 --> 00:27:16,340 You got the numbers. 391 00:27:16,340 --> 00:27:21,780 Do they have the ability to attend, participate, put their truth on the table and have that 392 00:27:21,780 --> 00:27:26,340 considered in the greatest degree of truth? 393 00:27:26,340 --> 00:27:28,740 That's the power of diversity. 394 00:27:28,740 --> 00:27:29,740 That's true. 395 00:27:29,740 --> 00:27:30,740 Right to bear. 396 00:27:30,740 --> 00:27:39,540 There are many advantages to diversity, but that, I mean, multiple perspectives is un-comparable 397 00:27:39,540 --> 00:27:40,940 to others. 398 00:27:40,940 --> 00:27:41,940 Absolutely. 399 00:27:41,940 --> 00:27:42,940 Absolutely. 400 00:27:42,940 --> 00:27:43,940 Absolutely. 401 00:27:43,940 --> 00:27:49,580 You know, in the, I have a LinkedIn learning course called Leading with Intelligent Disobedience. 402 00:27:49,580 --> 00:27:54,220 And there's a three-minute segment on what I call pretend employees. 403 00:27:54,220 --> 00:27:58,420 Those are employees that come to work and have to leave part of themselves home. 404 00:27:58,420 --> 00:28:03,940 It may be the very creative part that comes up with really wild ideas, but in the middle 405 00:28:03,940 --> 00:28:08,540 of that wild idea, there's a seed or two that are really fantastic that you can put together 406 00:28:08,540 --> 00:28:16,060 in a business and you have to be patient enough to hear the wild to draw out those seeds. 407 00:28:16,060 --> 00:28:20,180 But if you reject the person that happens to communicate that way and say, oh my God, 408 00:28:20,180 --> 00:28:25,780 you're just being way out, just, you know, go away. 409 00:28:25,780 --> 00:28:30,940 If they're still in your business, they're wearing a mask. 410 00:28:30,940 --> 00:28:32,580 They're only half there. 411 00:28:32,580 --> 00:28:37,620 They're spending energy not being themselves or suppressing themselves, which means they're 412 00:28:37,620 --> 00:28:42,060 not putting their energy into your business and belief into your business and drive into 413 00:28:42,060 --> 00:28:44,740 your business and passion into your business. 414 00:28:44,740 --> 00:28:46,220 You've got to pretend employee. 415 00:28:46,220 --> 00:28:48,100 You can't see it on paper. 416 00:28:48,100 --> 00:28:51,940 You may be paying them the same as somebody else, but they're not a full employee of your 417 00:28:51,940 --> 00:28:52,940 business. 418 00:28:52,940 --> 00:28:55,140 To the greatest degree we can. 419 00:28:55,140 --> 00:29:00,420 We need to let people be as authentic as we can, and that's allowing them to put ideas 420 00:29:00,420 --> 00:29:08,900 on the table, put their thoughts on the table as freely as we possibly can to allow them 421 00:29:08,900 --> 00:29:17,140 to really be included and take their diversity of backgrounds and perspectives and bring it 422 00:29:17,140 --> 00:29:22,140 into the table to make decisions and take advantage of that knowledge and experience. 423 00:29:22,140 --> 00:29:28,260 Well, I mean, that hit very close to home because I'm a big advocate for hiring people 424 00:29:28,260 --> 00:29:30,260 that argued me in the first interview. 425 00:29:30,260 --> 00:29:35,780 Actually, my marketing manager sitting right across from me is laughing right now because 426 00:29:35,780 --> 00:29:42,260 we had a big argument about how to do our digital media on the first time I met her 427 00:29:42,260 --> 00:29:43,260 on the interview. 428 00:29:43,260 --> 00:29:47,140 But her perspective was right at the end of the day, and that's how we're rolling out 429 00:29:47,140 --> 00:29:50,140 the marketing plans that we've been doing. 430 00:29:50,140 --> 00:29:55,780 There's a fantastic book about Abraham Lincoln in the United States in his cabinet called 431 00:29:55,780 --> 00:29:57,860 Team of Rivals. 432 00:29:57,860 --> 00:30:05,500 He was very big on bringing people together that had different ways of thinking from him 433 00:30:05,500 --> 00:30:09,600 and different ways of thinking with each other because he wanted the greatest spectrum of 434 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,220 possibilities and thought on the table to make decisions. 435 00:30:13,220 --> 00:30:20,460 And the book is about a team of rivals with different rivaling, competing ideas. 436 00:30:20,460 --> 00:30:22,340 Absolutely. 437 00:30:22,340 --> 00:30:28,100 So I have someone asking a question which I'm not really entirely sure if it's clear 438 00:30:28,100 --> 00:30:31,180 here. 439 00:30:31,180 --> 00:30:35,580 Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts. 440 00:30:35,580 --> 00:30:37,860 I'm going to avoid this one. 441 00:30:37,860 --> 00:30:38,860 It's too politically... 442 00:30:38,860 --> 00:30:39,860 But let me... 443 00:30:39,860 --> 00:30:42,220 I do want to address that not his own fact. 444 00:30:42,220 --> 00:30:43,220 I agree. 445 00:30:43,220 --> 00:30:47,260 I understand the concept of that comment, I think. 446 00:30:47,260 --> 00:30:50,020 But let me just put that in perspective. 447 00:30:50,020 --> 00:30:53,660 I may say, God, this project is going to be easy. 448 00:30:53,660 --> 00:30:56,340 I've done three of these. 449 00:30:56,340 --> 00:30:59,060 Somebody else may say, I can't imagine this project being easy. 450 00:30:59,060 --> 00:31:01,940 I've done three of these, and two of them were an absolute disaster. 451 00:31:01,940 --> 00:31:05,860 Well, did I just get lucky? 452 00:31:05,860 --> 00:31:09,860 Or have they discovered something that I didn't discover? 453 00:31:09,860 --> 00:31:12,220 And so it would be good. 454 00:31:12,220 --> 00:31:18,540 And again, I want the fact of the experiences they viewed it to try to understand it, to 455 00:31:18,540 --> 00:31:25,220 put on the table so I can add mine to it, versus just conjecture an opinion. 456 00:31:25,220 --> 00:31:28,500 So I want to sort of sort through that a little bit. 457 00:31:28,500 --> 00:31:30,780 But I don't deny... 458 00:31:30,780 --> 00:31:36,860 If someone can give me an authentic experience that they've had, and they've reflected on 459 00:31:36,860 --> 00:31:39,980 it, I usually want to know about it. 460 00:31:39,980 --> 00:31:43,460 That doesn't necessarily mean I have to do exactly what it is they say. 461 00:31:43,460 --> 00:31:47,460 That's their truth, and I want to look at the truth. 462 00:31:47,460 --> 00:31:48,460 Right? 463 00:31:48,460 --> 00:31:51,420 99 people had no problem with this project, and one didn't. 464 00:31:51,420 --> 00:31:54,900 I'd love to understand why the one didn't have a... 465 00:31:54,900 --> 00:31:57,300 Or whatever the case may be, to learn from that. 466 00:31:57,300 --> 00:32:01,820 But then we're probably going to go with the 99 other things. 467 00:32:01,820 --> 00:32:06,980 In that process, I don't want to deny that outlier from having a voice. 468 00:32:06,980 --> 00:32:14,420 I think that's really detrimental to not only that employee, but the fact that I've 469 00:32:14,420 --> 00:32:19,300 shut that down is going to be noticed by the other employees on my team as well. 470 00:32:19,300 --> 00:32:24,660 And then I don't want someone going home and saying, gee, what's too controversial an opinion 471 00:32:24,660 --> 00:32:26,620 for me to share with Bob? 472 00:32:26,620 --> 00:32:31,420 And now they're wondering whether they should share. 473 00:32:31,420 --> 00:32:35,140 I don't want them spending energy wondering whether they should share. 474 00:32:35,140 --> 00:32:38,980 Absolutely not. 475 00:32:38,980 --> 00:32:43,820 Someone was asking, and of course, this is a politically charged question, so feel free 476 00:32:43,820 --> 00:32:47,020 not to answer, but I will go ahead and ask it. 477 00:32:47,020 --> 00:32:53,980 Someone is asking if Trump, Donald Trump, can be considered as intelligently disobedient. 478 00:32:53,980 --> 00:32:59,820 I get that question a lot, especially when I live in Australia, I was born in America, 479 00:32:59,820 --> 00:33:05,300 and I'm both an American and Australian citizen. 480 00:33:05,300 --> 00:33:13,580 Do you remember we talked about the first rule of intelligent disobedience, and that 481 00:33:13,580 --> 00:33:18,820 you are engaging in an active intelligent disobedience for the benefit of the business 482 00:33:18,820 --> 00:33:25,860 or the organization as a whole? 483 00:33:25,860 --> 00:33:32,940 Now I may have conservative or liberal political views and maybe agree with those or not agree 484 00:33:32,940 --> 00:33:33,940 with those. 485 00:33:33,940 --> 00:33:37,500 I'm separating that for the moment, because I don't think that's germane to the point 486 00:33:37,500 --> 00:33:39,420 I want to make. 487 00:33:39,420 --> 00:33:49,220 In my viewpoint, I don't think it was evident that that was always the case, that he was 488 00:33:49,220 --> 00:33:55,740 putting the organization in the United States in front of what appeared to be personal interest. 489 00:33:55,740 --> 00:33:58,540 I don't know that for sure. 490 00:33:58,540 --> 00:34:04,540 I can't say hand on heart, this is the hard evidence, there you go, because I heard the 491 00:34:04,540 --> 00:34:10,140 conversation or I saw a document, so I can't pass judgment on that. 492 00:34:10,140 --> 00:34:15,820 But my belief is makes me question it from the things that I did see. 493 00:34:15,820 --> 00:34:24,020 So as a general, I don't think it was intelligent disobedient in many cases. 494 00:34:24,020 --> 00:34:29,220 I can't put hand on heart and say that's a fact, because I don't know the entire story. 495 00:34:29,220 --> 00:34:35,020 Like you said, there's so many different perspectives that if we wanted to help with 496 00:34:35,020 --> 00:34:38,900 the answer that we would need to know all those different perspectives. 497 00:34:38,900 --> 00:34:40,900 A lot more than I know. 498 00:34:40,900 --> 00:34:50,380 So I'm sorry, I'm not going to distinctly answer the question, but my leaning is kind 499 00:34:50,380 --> 00:34:54,660 of that way, that it's not really an always intelligent discipline, it didn't appear that 500 00:34:54,660 --> 00:34:55,660 way to me. 501 00:34:55,660 --> 00:35:03,620 Well, let's shift gears a bit and avoid the politics for a second. 502 00:35:03,620 --> 00:35:12,940 I wanted to ask also, when was the point when you decided that you or what was the point 503 00:35:12,940 --> 00:35:18,140 where intelligent disobedience became integral in a part of your life? 504 00:35:18,140 --> 00:35:25,380 So while I wasn't calling it intelligent disobedience then, because I hadn't met Chap and his master 505 00:35:25,380 --> 00:35:32,460 and learned this whole perspective that seeing eye dogs and the concept of intelligent disobedience. 506 00:35:32,460 --> 00:35:37,020 As I said, I worked for IBM for 18 years and a couple of years in, I got my first management 507 00:35:37,020 --> 00:35:40,420 position and I was sent to IBM Management School. 508 00:35:40,420 --> 00:35:42,820 And this was in the 80s. 509 00:35:42,820 --> 00:35:48,780 IBM was really, really big on educating and I benefited from that greatly. 510 00:35:48,780 --> 00:35:53,100 And new manager education involved a number of different things, including a week, a very 511 00:35:53,100 --> 00:36:00,020 intense week where you had three different manager instructors with three different styles. 512 00:36:00,020 --> 00:36:04,300 So this is not right, this is not wrong, you adopt your style, right? 513 00:36:04,300 --> 00:36:09,100 And so we were getting a sample of three different styles and one of the guys came in and it 514 00:36:09,100 --> 00:36:14,220 was two guys in a gal, but one of the two guys came in to one of his lectures in our 515 00:36:14,220 --> 00:36:19,940 little session and he had a construction helmet on that was beat to hell. 516 00:36:19,940 --> 00:36:22,300 And dents and scratches. 517 00:36:22,300 --> 00:36:26,700 I mean, this thing looked as if he decided to ram buildings with it. 518 00:36:26,700 --> 00:36:29,340 It was just horrible. 519 00:36:29,340 --> 00:36:33,180 And so it was a notable thing and very unusual to, you know, this guy's got a suit and tie 520 00:36:33,180 --> 00:36:37,060 and this construction helmet on that was awful looking. 521 00:36:37,060 --> 00:36:43,500 And he says, if you don't have dents in your helmet, you're not trying to advance our business 522 00:36:43,500 --> 00:36:46,180 hard enough. 523 00:36:46,180 --> 00:36:49,420 Wow. 524 00:36:49,420 --> 00:36:54,980 That was 30 some odd years ago and I remember every word of that lecture. 525 00:36:54,980 --> 00:36:57,460 That is probably the head. 526 00:36:57,460 --> 00:37:02,660 He had me hook line and sinker with that one. 527 00:37:02,660 --> 00:37:06,260 And I've always tried to take that management approach that says, you know, you have to 528 00:37:06,260 --> 00:37:07,260 be reasonable. 529 00:37:07,260 --> 00:37:09,220 I mean, I'm not going to run into a building without a helmet. 530 00:37:09,220 --> 00:37:10,700 Let me put it that way. 531 00:37:10,700 --> 00:37:11,700 Right? 532 00:37:11,700 --> 00:37:14,020 Nor was he advocating that you do that. 533 00:37:14,020 --> 00:37:15,020 Right? 534 00:37:15,020 --> 00:37:17,260 And he's ultimately saying, take a risk. 535 00:37:17,260 --> 00:37:20,860 You know, I'm going to take a risk by a protection helmet on. 536 00:37:20,860 --> 00:37:22,260 It could be because I've done research. 537 00:37:22,260 --> 00:37:25,180 It could be because I've talked to my manager and they're going to back me up because I 538 00:37:25,180 --> 00:37:26,260 want to try something new. 539 00:37:26,260 --> 00:37:31,900 It could be a number of different things, but don't take a risk without your helmet. 540 00:37:31,900 --> 00:37:36,060 But you know, don't try to keep your helmet really clean by just doing little things either 541 00:37:36,060 --> 00:37:38,220 that's not moving the business forward. 542 00:37:38,220 --> 00:37:39,980 If you do that. 543 00:37:39,980 --> 00:37:47,620 So, so I sort of, there might be something in bread in my jeans that that meant so much 544 00:37:47,620 --> 00:37:50,100 to me when I heard him say that. 545 00:37:50,100 --> 00:37:55,420 So there might be a bit of inbreeding or, you know, a gene pool sort of thing that led 546 00:37:55,420 --> 00:37:56,620 me to embrace that. 547 00:37:56,620 --> 00:38:01,140 But that certainly released it as a great thought process for me. 548 00:38:01,140 --> 00:38:02,140 It's such a heavy sentence. 549 00:38:02,140 --> 00:38:06,180 You know, you can't advance the business without, you know, a dint in your helmet. 550 00:38:06,180 --> 00:38:11,300 It's a lot of people now lately on social media that they're doing these posts of quotes 551 00:38:11,300 --> 00:38:12,300 and so on. 552 00:38:12,300 --> 00:38:17,540 And one of them is, you know, you can't reach the top of Everest without getting dirty. 553 00:38:17,540 --> 00:38:22,260 And that's the same concept. 554 00:38:22,260 --> 00:38:29,540 I mean, if you're all polished and neat and just sitting on your clean desk, it suggests 555 00:38:29,540 --> 00:38:31,260 that there's not a lot of work being done. 556 00:38:31,260 --> 00:38:32,260 Yeah. 557 00:38:32,260 --> 00:38:33,260 Yeah. 558 00:38:33,260 --> 00:38:35,140 And you know, the other thing, and I know we may be going off on a tangent from intelligence 559 00:38:35,140 --> 00:38:38,860 and disobedience, but I've heard that quote before in my always carler is that, yes, and 560 00:38:38,860 --> 00:38:40,220 you need Sherpa. 561 00:38:40,220 --> 00:38:42,220 You need Sherpas. 562 00:38:42,220 --> 00:38:49,180 Don't forget you need a team and you need to appreciate them to get to where you want 563 00:38:49,180 --> 00:38:50,180 to get. 564 00:38:50,180 --> 00:38:51,180 So, yeah, but both is true. 565 00:38:51,180 --> 00:38:54,420 And I said, I want to take us on too much of a tangent, but I can't help myself when 566 00:38:54,420 --> 00:38:55,420 I hear that quote. 567 00:38:55,420 --> 00:38:56,420 No, no, no, it's okay. 568 00:38:56,420 --> 00:39:00,900 I mean, that quote, that quote, second time you told me that quote. 569 00:39:00,900 --> 00:39:07,700 And every single time I'm just as hit as equally as hard as every single time I hear. 570 00:39:07,700 --> 00:39:10,660 It's so true. 571 00:39:10,660 --> 00:39:12,540 It's so true. 572 00:39:12,540 --> 00:39:22,020 I wanted to go over just another concept that you had mentioned or a story, let's say, on 573 00:39:22,020 --> 00:39:32,780 the same YouTube video was when there was a training being given and the top managers 574 00:39:32,780 --> 00:39:35,780 that stopped the training. 575 00:39:35,780 --> 00:39:40,020 Of course, if I'm repeating directly, I'll let you take over from here. 576 00:39:40,020 --> 00:39:43,540 I've got a few YouTube stories. 577 00:39:43,540 --> 00:39:44,540 There's a few stories. 578 00:39:44,540 --> 00:39:49,180 I'm trying to remember which one you quoted. 579 00:39:49,180 --> 00:39:50,180 Sorry about that. 580 00:39:50,180 --> 00:39:55,660 Well, there was one bad review of the training and then there was like 99 good reviews of 581 00:39:55,660 --> 00:39:58,180 the training. 582 00:39:58,180 --> 00:40:00,180 Okay. 583 00:40:00,180 --> 00:40:04,180 Yeah. 584 00:40:04,180 --> 00:40:14,100 So it's an interesting thing when you get feedback and how you treat feedback can be 585 00:40:14,100 --> 00:40:17,380 an element of intelligence disobedience. 586 00:40:17,380 --> 00:40:23,020 And it's easy to look at the numbers of 99 things that are positive and one that's not 587 00:40:23,020 --> 00:40:30,100 and say, you can't reach everybody. 588 00:40:30,100 --> 00:40:32,220 So there's two stories to take away from this. 589 00:40:32,220 --> 00:40:35,980 And I don't know if exactly what you're allowing me to go to, Leith, but I think there's two 590 00:40:35,980 --> 00:40:39,860 stories I want to share based on that intro for me. 591 00:40:39,860 --> 00:40:40,860 The first is this. 592 00:40:40,860 --> 00:40:44,820 And this is really, this is true with intelligence disobedience. 593 00:40:44,820 --> 00:40:47,580 There are people that are going to be very comfortable with intelligence disobedience. 594 00:40:47,580 --> 00:40:53,300 The guy who I talked to that was my management instructor that had that helmet on is absolutely 595 00:40:53,300 --> 00:40:55,340 going to embrace intelligence disobedience. 596 00:40:55,340 --> 00:40:59,140 And there's people that are going to be very process minded and very uncomfortable when 597 00:40:59,140 --> 00:41:02,620 you vary from process. 598 00:41:02,620 --> 00:41:09,380 So you get a lot of feedback when you're not necessarily going on what people will think 599 00:41:09,380 --> 00:41:13,220 the straight and narrow and following the rules all the time. 600 00:41:13,220 --> 00:41:18,900 So I, you know, and someone said this also about making presentations in public and getting 601 00:41:18,900 --> 00:41:19,900 responses. 602 00:41:19,900 --> 00:41:22,860 He said, here's what I want to understand. 603 00:41:22,860 --> 00:41:25,620 He said, let's just pick a number. 604 00:41:25,620 --> 00:41:33,140 He said, 2% of the people that review, see your presentations and review you are going 605 00:41:33,140 --> 00:41:36,180 to hate everything you said. 606 00:41:36,180 --> 00:41:37,180 Hate it. 607 00:41:37,180 --> 00:41:40,460 Could be because the dog died just before they came to work. 608 00:41:40,460 --> 00:41:42,020 Could be just because they've had a bad day. 609 00:41:42,020 --> 00:41:46,340 Could be because your voice reminds them of somebody else they don't like or they just 610 00:41:46,340 --> 00:41:48,460 don't think you have the right approach to the topic. 611 00:41:48,460 --> 00:41:49,460 Doesn't matter. 612 00:41:49,460 --> 00:41:52,180 2% are not going to like what you have to say. 613 00:41:52,180 --> 00:41:55,940 2% are going to think you're God's gift to the topic and they will follow you around 614 00:41:55,940 --> 00:41:59,420 like groupies following a band. 615 00:41:59,420 --> 00:42:00,420 They're going to think you're wonderful. 616 00:42:00,420 --> 00:42:03,500 They're going to praise you at every opportunity that they get. 617 00:42:03,500 --> 00:42:06,300 Here's what you need to understand about those two. 618 00:42:06,300 --> 00:42:08,700 Neither one of those is your fault. 619 00:42:08,700 --> 00:42:10,540 Right? 620 00:42:10,540 --> 00:42:15,620 The fact that you are horrible, the fact that you're like God-like, you just have to dismiss 621 00:42:15,620 --> 00:42:17,620 those. 622 00:42:17,620 --> 00:42:20,460 Right? 623 00:42:20,460 --> 00:42:24,060 Focus on the 96% in the middle. 624 00:42:24,060 --> 00:42:26,820 So that's one thing relative to the 991. 625 00:42:26,820 --> 00:42:32,260 The other is, what's the content of the one? 626 00:42:32,260 --> 00:42:38,060 People might have been entertained by what you said and enjoyed a training or enjoyed 627 00:42:38,060 --> 00:42:41,100 the presentation or enjoyed whatever it is that they're evaluating, you're going to get 628 00:42:41,100 --> 00:42:45,300 a good score. 629 00:42:45,300 --> 00:42:52,540 But I read the negative ones very carefully because there may be something I can learn 630 00:42:52,540 --> 00:42:53,820 from that. 631 00:42:53,820 --> 00:42:58,020 Somebody's perspective, somebody's background, that could be somebody else's truth going 632 00:42:58,020 --> 00:43:01,740 back to the putting truth on the table and it's like, you know what? 633 00:43:01,740 --> 00:43:07,260 No one else noticed this by this, but this person and that person might have been really, 634 00:43:07,260 --> 00:43:09,340 really paying attention. 635 00:43:09,340 --> 00:43:12,140 And I may have something to learn from that. 636 00:43:12,140 --> 00:43:21,300 So the 991 thing brings up those two thoughts in my mind relative to how you deal with feedback. 637 00:43:21,300 --> 00:43:27,140 So is it, you know, was that feedback that one on the 99 and therefore you could stop 638 00:43:27,140 --> 00:43:28,140 and make a change? 639 00:43:28,140 --> 00:43:33,380 And I'll tell you the story behind this is, you know, is that falling into the 2% of just 640 00:43:33,380 --> 00:43:35,140 someone that grumbly and didn't like it? 641 00:43:35,140 --> 00:43:39,180 And did they have something concrete you need to learn in those comments? 642 00:43:39,180 --> 00:43:48,700 And the story is, the intelligent disobedient story is halting a set of education, even 643 00:43:48,700 --> 00:43:53,780 though we got an absolutely fantastic rating if you look at the numbers, because the really, 644 00:43:53,780 --> 00:44:01,700 I wanted to listen to that one negative because it had a really, really valid point in it 645 00:44:01,700 --> 00:44:06,820 and we needed to turn around and restructure the way that we did that training to accommodate 646 00:44:06,820 --> 00:44:10,100 it and it was a very, very good thing as a result. 647 00:44:10,100 --> 00:44:13,580 So don't always just play the numbers game. 648 00:44:13,580 --> 00:44:17,020 Look at the truth that was put on the table in the comments that you get. 649 00:44:17,020 --> 00:44:21,780 I can't undervalue the smaller number. 650 00:44:21,780 --> 00:44:27,900 There was great value in the attention that the person put in that put in a negative comment. 651 00:44:27,900 --> 00:44:28,900 Feedback's a gift. 652 00:44:28,900 --> 00:44:33,180 And it may be just someone venting or it may be someone that has something legitimate and 653 00:44:33,180 --> 00:44:36,940 in this case, that's something legitimate and you really want to read it and pay attention. 654 00:44:36,940 --> 00:44:38,420 Not let it get you down again. 655 00:44:38,420 --> 00:44:41,780 It's the 2% and the 2% both aren't your fault. 656 00:44:41,780 --> 00:44:46,780 But if there's something in there, pay attention to it. 657 00:44:46,780 --> 00:44:49,260 Hello? 658 00:44:49,260 --> 00:44:53,580 Are we there? 659 00:44:53,580 --> 00:44:59,380 Hello, you're back. 660 00:44:59,380 --> 00:45:01,900 I saw and heard you this all the whole time. 661 00:45:01,900 --> 00:45:02,900 So sorry about that. 662 00:45:02,900 --> 00:45:06,580 I don't know where that failure was, but I think we're back together. 663 00:45:06,580 --> 00:45:07,580 Sorry about that. 664 00:45:07,580 --> 00:45:08,580 I'm in here frozen. 665 00:45:08,580 --> 00:45:11,260 I actually have a really good question here from someone called Said. 666 00:45:11,260 --> 00:45:20,860 He's saying, how is intelligent disobedience related to our values? 667 00:45:20,860 --> 00:45:24,660 They are absolutely intertwined with your values. 668 00:45:24,660 --> 00:45:30,020 In an earlier conversation and in a different context, Leith, I said I talked about Google 669 00:45:30,020 --> 00:45:35,980 and a electric power distribution. 670 00:45:35,980 --> 00:45:40,020 What is intelligent disobedience in one environment may not be intelligent disobedience in the 671 00:45:40,020 --> 00:45:42,380 other. 672 00:45:42,380 --> 00:45:44,180 Values tie into this. 673 00:45:44,180 --> 00:45:50,340 Something that's acceptable in one country is going to be unacceptable in another. 674 00:45:50,340 --> 00:45:54,860 And maybe intelligent disobedience if you do it, or maybe just plain disobedience if 675 00:45:54,860 --> 00:45:55,860 you do it. 676 00:45:55,860 --> 00:46:01,700 So the company's mission, company culture, country culture, and the values that come 677 00:46:01,700 --> 00:46:08,060 about from that are all intertwined as to whether something in your context may be intelligent 678 00:46:08,060 --> 00:46:10,500 disobedience or not. 679 00:46:10,500 --> 00:46:14,580 And in the past, which is why I say I'm not an expert on it and I can't tell when or any 680 00:46:14,580 --> 00:46:17,180 given instance is an active intelligent disobedience. 681 00:46:17,180 --> 00:46:18,700 I say, well, tell me more. 682 00:46:18,700 --> 00:46:19,700 Tell me the story. 683 00:46:19,700 --> 00:46:20,700 Tell me the background. 684 00:46:20,700 --> 00:46:22,860 What research did you do? 685 00:46:22,860 --> 00:46:27,740 Before you, or what knowledge did you bring to bear before you took this action and determined 686 00:46:27,740 --> 00:46:30,620 it was intelligent disobedience or not? 687 00:46:30,620 --> 00:46:35,620 So it's a very situational concept. 688 00:46:35,620 --> 00:46:36,620 Right. 689 00:46:36,620 --> 00:46:40,100 That is a tough one. 690 00:46:40,100 --> 00:46:43,300 And hopefully that answers its question. 691 00:46:43,300 --> 00:46:50,780 Hopefully, anyways, I think that it's been lovely having you on here. 692 00:46:50,780 --> 00:46:57,860 And if you want to go ahead and add anything else, now would be a good time. 693 00:46:57,860 --> 00:46:58,860 Sure. 694 00:46:58,860 --> 00:47:03,860 Again, I am the collector and share of stories of intelligent disobedience. 695 00:47:03,860 --> 00:47:09,220 So intelligent disobedience, the difference between good and great leaders is my book, 696 00:47:09,220 --> 00:47:13,660 intelligent disobedience, one long word, dot com, is a website where, and then you 697 00:47:13,660 --> 00:47:19,620 can, you know, there's a YouTube channel for called intelligent disobedience and LinkedIn 698 00:47:19,620 --> 00:47:23,860 learning is there's a course on intelligent disobedience. 699 00:47:23,860 --> 00:47:27,900 I mentioned along with 20 other courses that I have in LinkedIn learning on project management 700 00:47:27,900 --> 00:47:33,660 and other leadership and business building concepts and consulting. 701 00:47:33,660 --> 00:47:38,780 And Bob, my first name at intelligent disobedience.com is my email. 702 00:47:38,780 --> 00:47:42,540 I always love people reaching out, asking questions if there's something that I said 703 00:47:42,540 --> 00:47:47,940 that you liked or didn't like or whatever, or you're trying to apply this in a scenario 704 00:47:47,940 --> 00:47:49,420 when I have a bit of a chat. 705 00:47:49,420 --> 00:47:53,580 I'm more than happy to do that. 706 00:47:53,580 --> 00:47:57,500 In fact, I'm always thrilled when I can help people navigate this concept. 707 00:47:57,500 --> 00:48:04,580 Because when you put it into place and it works, the outcomes that you get are fantastic. 708 00:48:04,580 --> 00:48:05,580 Absolutely. 709 00:48:05,580 --> 00:48:06,580 Thank you. 710 00:48:06,580 --> 00:48:17,220 I'll go ahead and share the link for your book as well in the comment section. 711 00:48:17,220 --> 00:48:21,740 And of course, thank you so much for being on Leaders Talk with us. 712 00:48:21,740 --> 00:48:22,740 My pleasure. 713 00:48:22,740 --> 00:48:23,740 Oh, and one more thing. 714 00:48:23,740 --> 00:48:29,020 I think there's only two Bob McGannons on LinkedIn Learning or on LinkedIn. 715 00:48:29,020 --> 00:48:33,620 If you want to reach on me on LinkedIn, the guy with the white hair, the Bob McGannon 716 00:48:33,620 --> 00:48:35,100 with the white hair is me. 717 00:48:35,100 --> 00:48:39,540 So you can reach out to me that way as well. 718 00:48:39,540 --> 00:48:40,540 Right. 719 00:48:40,540 --> 00:48:42,540 Well, thank you so much again. 720 00:48:42,540 --> 00:48:48,660 And anything that we missed in the comments, we can go ahead and answer over text. 721 00:48:48,660 --> 00:48:49,660 Absolutely. 722 00:48:49,660 --> 00:48:51,980 Thank you so much once again for having me on, Lathis. 723 00:48:51,980 --> 00:48:54,980 I appreciate it, and I hope the audience enjoyed it. 724 00:48:54,980 --> 00:48:58,100 And again, any comments or questions are more than happy to respond. 725 00:48:58,100 --> 00:48:59,100 Definitely. 726 00:48:59,100 --> 00:49:00,100 Thank you so much. 727 00:49:00,100 --> 00:49:01,260 Have a great day. 728 00:49:01,260 --> 00:49:02,260 Thanks. 729 00:49:02,260 --> 00:49:03,260 You too. 730 00:49:03,260 --> 00:49:22,220 Take care, everybody.