WEBVTT

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How much of your DNA has been put into the next

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generation so the next generation can do the

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things that you did for their generation and

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the ones that come after? Yeah. It's not always

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going to look the same. The generation that crossed

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the Jordan didn't cross the same way as the generation

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that crossed the Red Sea. Right. But they still

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crossed and they still entered into a promise.

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They still followed in the direction that was

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laid before them. God promises in Joel 2 .28

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to pour out His Spirit on all humanity. Welcome

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to Global Outpouring, where we contend for that

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promise outpouring, and we equip for that outpouring.

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so that we may engage in that very outpouring.

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I'm Philip Buss. And I'm Sharon Buss. Welcome

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to the podcast today. We have with us today our

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friend Matthew Reams that we've known for a good

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many years now, not decades yet, but quite a

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few years. He's a very dear friend of ours, and

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he is going to be sharing with us some things

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that are on his heart about that old adage, don't

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throw the baby out with the bathwater. Thank

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you so much for joining us today. We bless you,

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and we just want to say thank you for tuning

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in. But before we get started, we want to encourage

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you, if you haven't already done so, that you

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go to our website, globaloutpouring .net, and

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you sign up for our emails. There's a subscribe

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button there. And we want to stay in touch with

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you. If you don't mind us staying in touch with

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you, if you're liking this content, this would

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be a good way to stay in contact. And we also

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have an event tab there for you to click on so

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that you can see about our upcoming events. and

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especially this convention 2025. It's going to

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be an amazing time in the presence of the Lord

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in St. Louis at the St. Louis Airport Marriott,

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right across from the airport. It's so simple

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to get to right off of Interstate 70. And you

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can get there and you can come and join in with

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us as we worship the Lord in deep worship. It's

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May 21st through 24th. We're going to have deep.

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deep intercession and deep study of the Word

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and wonderful openings from heaven. There's just

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always this open heaven that comes in this place

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as we gather together under the anointing. And

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Matthew is going to be one of our worship leaders,

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especially for the youth, and he'll be on our

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worship team on the platform as well. And so

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we're really glad for him to join us. And the

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speakers that we're having are Siggy Oblander

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and Tony Kemp. and Dean Braxton and Jeff Simons

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and Jean Little and myself. And so you're going

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to have a wonderful time of growing in the Lord.

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It's a family event. We have a nursery for the

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little ones and a special place for the children

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and the youth to have their own meetings where

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they can grow in the things of God as well. So

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come and bring your family and get into the pool.

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It's going to be an amazing time. Amen. Amen.

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Hallelujah. So, Matthew, we're so glad that you've

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joined us today. Thank you so much for being

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here. Absolutely. It's always a joy to be down

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here in the valley. Yes. And you're in the valley

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because you're going to be leading worship and

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speaking for us on our Friday night live worship.

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this week. And this podcast is going to hit a

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couple of weeks later, two, three weeks later.

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So, you know, people can go back into the archives

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and see that event on Facebook and YouTube. So

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just want to encourage people to really get tuned

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in to all of the content that we have to offer.

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It's not just this podcast. There's way more.

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And there's archives that are just amazing. So,

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Matthew, tell us, since we're talking about convention,

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tell us what's your take on convention. You've

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been to a few. About how many? About eight or

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so, maybe? Probably something like that. Yeah,

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seven or eight. I'm actually very excited for

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this convention in specific. Yeah. It's always

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a good thing. Everyone is different. Everyone

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is unique. But obviously for the past few years.

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Travel has been weird. And, you know, we were

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finally truly on the other side of all the lockdowns

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and things. Yes. During that, it was not easy

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to have a big convention center type event. Yeah.

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So we had a little convention center event right

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here at our headquarters. And, you know, for

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those of you that didn't get to come when they

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were here in Jasper, Arkansas, you really you

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missed out on some amazing presence of the Lord.

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Yeah. But. The presence of the Lord was never

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meant to just dwell here in a valley in Arkansas.

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And the wisdom that flows like a river from this

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camp and from these people, it's something that

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you need to enrich your life. I'm legitimately,

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I'm excited for what you're going to share when

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you preach at convention. I think sometimes,

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and I'm just going to say it because I have the

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mic and I can do these things, but I think sometimes

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people take for granted Oh, well, I hear Sharon

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on the podcast every week. I can tune in whenever.

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And they don't always recognize just how much

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wisdom comes out when you take the time to teach.

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You know, when you're interviewing people on

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a podcast, you're not always really teaching.

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True. You're facilitating. And that's a blessing.

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But there's a great wisdom that comes when she

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teaches. If you don't believe me, go back and

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watch some of the previous conventions on YouTube.

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Some of the revelations that she's released have

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shaped directions for people's lives. Wow. And

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it's really easy to look at, you know, oh, well,

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so -and -so, they're famous. I have 10 of their

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books on their shelf. Well, I mean, you could

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have her books on your shelf. They sell them

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in the bookstore here. I have all of them, I

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think, unless you've put out a new one. Not yet.

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I've got one brewing. Amen. You know, and then

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Pastor Tony Kemp, who's going to be there, you

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know, he's been with us. What is this, the fifth

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year in a row that he's been with us? Oh, more

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like seven, I think. He's a dear friend of mine.

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He's been a mentor to me and really, really affected

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the way I think about the prophetic ministry.

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Yeah. Disclaimer for all of you who are listening.

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I have very much disconnected from most of the

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outside prophetic world because. There's so many

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people with so many voices and some of them are

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lovely. But I really felt like I was getting

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caught up in noise rather than hearing the voice

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of God. And so one of my criteria of people that

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I pay attention to is I want to spend some time

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with you in worship. I want to see how you worship

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the Lord. I want to see how you pray. I want

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to hear when you teach something other than just

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a prophetic word, do your words still drip with

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the anointing that shows you've been in the presence?

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And Sharon and Tony are the two that are coming

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that I know the best. And both of them are people

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that drip with anointing when they talk. And

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then Brother Jeff, who's coming, I got to meet

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him last year ever so briefly. But I've kind

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of kept up with some of the stuff he's been doing

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on the Internet. Yeah, his podcast. There's something

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important that God is using him to say that needs

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to be said. Absolutely. And I don't know him

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well enough, so I can't give him as high praise

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as I would you and Tony. But every time he starts

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talking about restoring purity in the house of

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the Lord, he starts saying things that I'm saying.

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in my church and I'm saying in meetings that

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I'm at. And it's like, okay, I'm not crazy and

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I'm not alone. Hallelujah. And that's certainly,

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you know, those are the meetings that we're having

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in the main services, but I really want to encourage

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you, bring your family. Yes. Because we're going

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to have meetings for our youth and young adults.

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Obviously, you know, people of a certain age

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could decide why I'd rather be in the adult services.

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And if your youth really want to be in the adult

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services, I don't think anybody would tell them

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no. No, absolutely. But we're going to have time

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where young people are going to be able to gather.

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And I get to say young people now because I'm

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officially middle -aged. Oh, really? Yeah, I'm

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38 now. That's the middle of what? 76. Okay.

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I hang around with enough young people to no

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longer feel like I'm a young person. Oh, okay.

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You know, doing a lot of campus ministry and

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doing a lot of young adults and youth ministry

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in Kansas where I'm at, I'm not one of them.

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But the Lord has given me an amazing opportunity

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to pour into them. I have a great connection

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with youth and young people, and I don't really

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know why. It's just one of those things that

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the Lord does. But there are people that are

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coming that are going to be fasting and praying

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to hear from the Lord to specifically minister

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to your children and to your teenagers in a way

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that is going to be different than what you get

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at home. You might go to one of the greatest

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churches out there and praise God if you do,

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but there's going to be things that they're going

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to get when they come from an outside perspective.

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And when someone who doesn't know them begins

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to tell them the things that the Lord's saying

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and it starts to confirm the things that you've

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been trying to say, that you've wanted to speak,

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it hits differently. Sometimes if we hear it

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too much at home, we undervalue it. But when

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someone who doesn't know us says the same thing,

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it's like it'll click in a way that it never

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has. Yes. And I don't know exactly how many youth

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are going to be there, but I've never met a single

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youth that came and invested their time. that

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didn't leave transformed. Glory to God. And then,

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you know, following that up a month later when

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we have our youth retreat here in the Valley,

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a lot of those youth, they came because their

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parents, their grandparents made them come to

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a convention, but something happened and they

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built into the community and they want to be

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here and be a part. Yeah. And that's important.

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That's valuable for young people. And it's kind

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of rare. We're struggling. As a Christian society

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to know what to do with the next generation.

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We always have. I think you're right. The more

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the next generation becomes different. And certainly

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this generation is very different than previous

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generations. The more we still want to lean back

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into things we did 30 years ago. Prime example

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of this was I was doing a tent revival down in.

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A southern state. I'll be generous and not be

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specific. But one evening they said they were

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going to have a youth night and the worship band

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got up and they said, we're going to have a youth

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night. We're going to play youth oriented songs.

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And every song they did were the songs that I

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did in youth group when I was in high school.

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Okay. And I've been out of high school for 20

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years. So when they said we're going to cater

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to youth. They were thinking about their youth,

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what they were like when they were a young person.

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Right. That's not my heart for youth. Like, I

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want to know, okay, what is this generation like?

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Yeah. And then how can I facilitate bringing

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in the concepts, the anointing, the revelation,

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the heartbeats of God that I've experienced in

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a way that makes sense to their culture? Right.

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Yeah. It's not necessarily. trying to pander

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as some people do, but to recognize, okay, you

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think differently, but this is something you

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need to know. So I need to get it to a place

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that you get it and you understand it. Yes, absolutely.

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That's my heart. Guaranteed that's going to happen

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at convention this year. Wow. Glory to God. That's

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tremendous. And I love the point that you made

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about watching how people worship. There's something

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about the worship at this convention that is

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unlike any other place I've ever been. I've been

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a few places. You know, something beautiful about

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worship in general is if the person who's leading

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the worship wants to, they can go deep all by

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themselves. True. I have a guitar. I can sit

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at home in my room and I can get into the presence

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and I can go have an encounter and lay out and

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do all that. But when I get around other people.

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who want to press in, who want to worship, who

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want to pour it out on the floor, leave it all

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there for Jesus, then we go deeper. And one of

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the heartbeats of this ministry, we're having,

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what, the 50th, I think we said, convention.

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It has always been worship. That worship that

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we're going to do this year is not going to sound

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like the worship they did. In convention number

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one. Oh, yeah, you're absolutely right. Different

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instruments, different musicians, different songs,

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different styles. Yes. But the heart to get to

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the place where all we want to do is lay out

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before the Lord is what's going to drive the

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worship. Yes. For instance, Clarence is going

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to be there. Clarence and I are wildly different

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in our personalities and our approach to worship.

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And yet when we get together and we do things,

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it is a joy and a delight. Well, at least it

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is for me. He can verify that on his end. But

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because it's not about, are they going to sing

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my favorite song? Are they going to play my favorite

00:14:03.620 --> 00:14:06.940
instrument? No, it's about, hey, I know that

00:14:06.940 --> 00:14:10.659
the Lord's about to show up. And I am going to

00:14:10.659 --> 00:14:14.220
worship with everything that I can. Amen. Yeah.

00:14:14.440 --> 00:14:17.159
And some people's worship is going to look a

00:14:17.159 --> 00:14:21.639
lot more outwardly exuberant than others. But

00:14:21.639 --> 00:14:24.179
if you're pursuing with your whole heart, even

00:14:24.179 --> 00:14:27.279
if you're just laying there, not moving, and

00:14:27.279 --> 00:14:29.580
we can't even see that your mouth's moving, that's

00:14:29.580 --> 00:14:32.379
okay because if you're fully in with your heart,

00:14:32.519 --> 00:14:36.559
you're stirring the atmosphere. Yes. And when

00:14:36.559 --> 00:14:38.779
you get enough people and you stir up enough

00:14:38.779 --> 00:14:42.539
atmosphere, things begin to shift. Absolutely.

00:14:43.100 --> 00:14:47.080
I love that. Hallelujah. So, Matthew, tell me,

00:14:47.080 --> 00:14:49.600
what is the Lord speaking to you about these

00:14:49.600 --> 00:14:52.120
days? What are you meditating on? What are you

00:14:52.120 --> 00:14:55.320
ministering on? Well, I am a unique individual.

00:14:55.580 --> 00:14:58.960
Yes, absolutely. I don't know anybody like you,

00:14:59.019 --> 00:15:03.000
which is good. That's probably very true. I am

00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:06.139
a pastor on staff at Freedom Church in Lawrence,

00:15:06.259 --> 00:15:08.580
Kansas. Shout out to anyone who's in the Kansas

00:15:08.580 --> 00:15:10.679
City area. If you need a church home, we have

00:15:10.679 --> 00:15:13.460
Wednesday nights and Sunday mornings. And you

00:15:13.460 --> 00:15:15.340
can find us by looking up Freedom Church of Lawrence.

00:15:15.519 --> 00:15:20.139
It's great. And so I'm on staff. I teach in our

00:15:20.139 --> 00:15:23.320
Bible college. I minister on our worship team.

00:15:23.659 --> 00:15:26.700
I preach not every Sunday. I'm not the senior

00:15:26.700 --> 00:15:29.159
pastor, which is great because our senior pastor

00:15:29.159 --> 00:15:31.899
is awesome. But then on top of that, I travel.

00:15:32.259 --> 00:15:34.320
I do missions work. I do itinerant speaking.

00:15:34.779 --> 00:15:36.960
You know, basically, if someone says, hey, can

00:15:36.960 --> 00:15:40.039
you come and minister at our church? If I can

00:15:40.039 --> 00:15:41.779
get there. I'm going to get there. I'm going

00:15:41.779 --> 00:15:45.059
to lend my supply. Because in our church, we

00:15:45.059 --> 00:15:48.519
say we are better together. Absolutely. And if

00:15:48.519 --> 00:15:51.460
every person in our church is contributing, the

00:15:51.460 --> 00:15:53.620
church is doing better. And that's not just about

00:15:53.620 --> 00:15:56.600
money. It's about contributing your supply. We're

00:15:56.600 --> 00:15:58.059
not talking about money. We're talking about

00:15:58.059 --> 00:15:59.559
in the spirit. We're talking about supply. I

00:15:59.559 --> 00:16:01.379
mean, look, if people want to contribute money,

00:16:01.500 --> 00:16:04.480
that's great. Oh, sure. Money pays bills. That's

00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:08.679
great. But not everybody has money. Everybody

00:16:08.679 --> 00:16:11.779
has a time, a talent or a treasure that they

00:16:11.779 --> 00:16:14.580
can give. And in our church, time, talent and

00:16:14.580 --> 00:16:17.600
treasure is something that like you might as

00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:20.179
well have it tattooed on the inside of your eyelids

00:16:20.179 --> 00:16:23.159
because it's going to tell you so much. We are

00:16:23.159 --> 00:16:25.580
better when you are bringing your time, your

00:16:25.580 --> 00:16:28.639
talent and your treasure because you have perspectives.

00:16:28.980 --> 00:16:31.960
I actually was just teaching in our Wednesday

00:16:31.960 --> 00:16:35.779
night service two days ago on. the spirit of

00:16:35.779 --> 00:16:38.740
prophecy and where the scripture says, we know

00:16:38.740 --> 00:16:42.639
in part and we prophesy in part. So if we're

00:16:42.639 --> 00:16:45.259
in church together, Sharon, and you're not contributing

00:16:45.259 --> 00:16:48.120
what the Lord's speaking to you, you're doing

00:16:48.120 --> 00:16:50.879
me a disservice. Very true. Because I only know

00:16:50.879 --> 00:16:55.759
in part. Right. But sometimes we become very

00:16:55.759 --> 00:16:59.200
introspective in our local church and we forget

00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:01.759
that our local church is part of a church in

00:17:01.759 --> 00:17:05.569
our city. True. And you may not always get along

00:17:05.569 --> 00:17:08.289
with your Presbyterian neighbors, your Baptist

00:17:08.289 --> 00:17:12.509
neighbors, your Nazarene neighbors, but there's

00:17:12.509 --> 00:17:14.950
parts that they understand that God has given

00:17:14.950 --> 00:17:17.369
them revelation that can be a blessing for us.

00:17:17.450 --> 00:17:20.069
And when we come together in that, then we're

00:17:20.069 --> 00:17:24.089
all growing better, even when we have recognizing

00:17:24.089 --> 00:17:27.269
there's minor disagreements. We don't worship

00:17:27.269 --> 00:17:30.230
the same. We don't pray the same. But we worship

00:17:30.230 --> 00:17:33.549
the same God. We pray to the same God. But then

00:17:33.549 --> 00:17:35.930
you have certain towns and certain cities where,

00:17:36.009 --> 00:17:39.269
sure, we're a little more connected in the city.

00:17:39.869 --> 00:17:41.529
But what about the state? What about the region?

00:17:41.589 --> 00:17:44.789
What about the nation? Yeah. For me, my heart

00:17:44.789 --> 00:17:47.990
is always, if there's something I have that can

00:17:47.990 --> 00:17:50.309
benefit you, I'm going to be there. And I'm going

00:17:50.309 --> 00:17:53.250
to try and do everything I can. You know, I always

00:17:53.250 --> 00:17:54.589
teach people. I said, look, if I got a bed and

00:17:54.589 --> 00:17:56.690
a shower and I can afford to get to you, I'm

00:17:56.690 --> 00:18:01.289
there. It's not that complicated because you

00:18:01.289 --> 00:18:03.569
have a need, and if I have a way to fill it,

00:18:03.609 --> 00:18:06.470
then I'm going to fill it. It's very relational.

00:18:07.390 --> 00:18:11.130
Unfortunately, and I was talking with a dear

00:18:11.130 --> 00:18:13.109
friend about this the other day, a lot of ministry

00:18:13.109 --> 00:18:17.150
is not relational. It's transactional. Ministers

00:18:17.150 --> 00:18:20.309
come in if you pay them enough. Oh, mercy. Ministers

00:18:20.309 --> 00:18:22.809
bless the people if they think it's going to

00:18:22.809 --> 00:18:25.529
have a big enough offering. Oh, my. And I certainly

00:18:25.529 --> 00:18:28.900
understand that. When you're well -known enough,

00:18:29.180 --> 00:18:32.980
you want to have services in bigger facilities

00:18:32.980 --> 00:18:35.200
because your name is going to bring more people.

00:18:35.460 --> 00:18:38.359
That's fine. If you're the guy that wrote the

00:18:38.359 --> 00:18:42.460
most recent prophetic bestseller and 550 people

00:18:42.460 --> 00:18:44.000
are going to want to hear you when you come to

00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:46.339
a certain city, you need a facility for that.

00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:50.740
But what if a church with 20 people wants something?

00:18:51.019 --> 00:18:53.720
Yeah. They're not going to be able to afford

00:18:53.720 --> 00:18:58.180
to bring in some of those people. But they still

00:18:58.180 --> 00:19:01.299
need someone to come. True. They still need someone.

00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:05.000
And especially I love pastors, but sometimes

00:19:05.000 --> 00:19:09.140
pastors get wore out. You know, when Paul was

00:19:09.140 --> 00:19:10.740
talking with his disciples, he says, oh, I've

00:19:10.740 --> 00:19:12.700
been beaten. I've been shipwrecked. I've received

00:19:12.700 --> 00:19:16.640
the 39 lashes more than once. And then he finishes

00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:18.160
that thought. And I'm paraphrasing, of course,

00:19:18.200 --> 00:19:20.180
but he finishes that thought. And then on top

00:19:20.180 --> 00:19:22.819
of all that, there is the work of keeping the

00:19:22.819 --> 00:19:26.220
churches. Wow. And if you read that. The way

00:19:26.220 --> 00:19:29.259
it reads in my head is like, look, I've been

00:19:29.259 --> 00:19:31.380
beaten. I've been shipwrecked. They've whipped

00:19:31.380 --> 00:19:35.220
me bloody. But worse than all that is I have

00:19:35.220 --> 00:19:38.359
to do this work for the churches. And it can

00:19:38.359 --> 00:19:42.960
really, really wear on pastors. Yeah. So sometimes

00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:46.339
pastors, they need a voice to come in from the

00:19:46.339 --> 00:19:48.799
outside or they need an opportunity to go somewhere.

00:19:49.079 --> 00:19:54.640
Yeah. So pastors, if you are in that place of,

00:19:55.449 --> 00:19:58.450
Stress, burnout, whatever. Come to the convention.

00:19:58.950 --> 00:20:01.430
Yes. Get outside of your service for a week.

00:20:01.589 --> 00:20:03.789
Even if you can't stay for the whole thing because

00:20:03.789 --> 00:20:06.470
you have to fly home, drive home, whatever, to

00:20:06.470 --> 00:20:07.970
make sure that you're there on time for Sunday

00:20:07.970 --> 00:20:10.990
morning. Get into a place where you don't have

00:20:10.990 --> 00:20:14.170
responsibility. Yeah. Shut off your phone for

00:20:14.170 --> 00:20:17.990
a day or two. Worship Jesus. Yes. And if your

00:20:17.990 --> 00:20:21.869
problems are significantly worse than that, there

00:20:21.869 --> 00:20:24.609
is absolutely no shame. And saying, hey, I am

00:20:24.609 --> 00:20:28.569
really struggling and talking to a counselor,

00:20:28.690 --> 00:20:31.450
talking to a minister and saying, hey, I need

00:20:31.450 --> 00:20:35.990
help right now. True. And if there's no one in

00:20:35.990 --> 00:20:39.349
your life that you can do that with, find out

00:20:39.349 --> 00:20:41.210
how to get a hold of me and talk to me. I will

00:20:41.210 --> 00:20:46.390
listen. I'm not a fancy counselor, but I understand

00:20:46.390 --> 00:20:49.680
we need those things. Let me just add. Right

00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:52.619
here. So if you are listening and you are that

00:20:52.619 --> 00:20:55.099
person and you have nobody to talk to and you

00:20:55.099 --> 00:20:57.940
want to talk to Matthew, send us an email at

00:20:57.940 --> 00:21:00.859
feedback at globaloutpouring .org and I will

00:21:00.859 --> 00:21:04.200
forward it to him. Amen. Or just go to globaloutpouring

00:21:04.200 --> 00:21:06.200
.net and fill out the feedback form. It'll come

00:21:06.200 --> 00:21:08.539
to the same place. So we'll connect you. Yeah,

00:21:08.539 --> 00:21:13.220
because your church needs you. True. God chose

00:21:13.220 --> 00:21:16.240
you and appointed you and put you in a place.

00:21:16.650 --> 00:21:19.529
as a minister, to shepherd people, to serve a

00:21:19.529 --> 00:21:23.869
body. And sometimes serving takes everything

00:21:23.869 --> 00:21:27.230
out of you. There's no shame in that. The shame

00:21:27.230 --> 00:21:29.710
is when we get so caught up in serving that we

00:21:29.710 --> 00:21:33.630
forget that our well is getting dry and we need

00:21:33.630 --> 00:21:36.390
to get filled up. Or when the stress gets too

00:21:36.390 --> 00:21:40.930
high and rather than meeting with a therapist

00:21:40.930 --> 00:21:45.390
or a counselor or a fellow minister to get counseling,

00:21:45.490 --> 00:21:48.869
wisdom, healing, whatever. We just let it bottle

00:21:48.869 --> 00:21:51.789
until we break. And I've seen too many ministers

00:21:51.789 --> 00:21:55.049
break. Yeah. It reminds me of that thing that

00:21:55.049 --> 00:21:57.190
they always say at the beginning of your airplane

00:21:57.190 --> 00:22:00.089
flight, the flight attendant will demonstrate

00:22:00.089 --> 00:22:02.970
how these little oxygen masks are going to drop

00:22:02.970 --> 00:22:06.789
from the ceiling and you put yours on first before

00:22:06.789 --> 00:22:09.809
you help somebody else, because you're only going

00:22:09.809 --> 00:22:13.069
to be of just so much service to others. If you

00:22:13.069 --> 00:22:16.869
have oxygen yourself. Amen. Yeah, it's true.

00:22:17.230 --> 00:22:22.049
So all that to say, the church world, it's kind

00:22:22.049 --> 00:22:25.349
of in a state of crisis at the moment. True.

00:22:25.990 --> 00:22:29.829
I mean, you can look on the Internet and you

00:22:29.829 --> 00:22:32.589
can find out about 100 scandals that are happening

00:22:32.589 --> 00:22:35.130
right now with pastors, ministers, leaders. Mercy

00:22:35.130 --> 00:22:37.910
to Jesus. That didn't act with integrity and

00:22:37.910 --> 00:22:42.420
righteousness. that got found out. You can read

00:22:42.420 --> 00:22:47.500
stories of churches that were struggling and

00:22:47.500 --> 00:22:50.740
had to close because the pastors couldn't do

00:22:50.740 --> 00:22:52.400
it anymore. The people couldn't do it anymore.

00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:55.819
You can read stories of people that are wounded,

00:22:55.900 --> 00:22:59.400
whether it's leaders or followers or whatever,

00:22:59.579 --> 00:23:05.180
and the sheep are scattering. Yes. And rather

00:23:05.180 --> 00:23:10.190
than Leaning into the word of God and truth,

00:23:10.430 --> 00:23:15.950
we're trying to fix the problems in so many of

00:23:15.950 --> 00:23:19.450
the wrong ways. True. You know, one great example

00:23:19.450 --> 00:23:22.250
is the movement they call deconstruction right

00:23:22.250 --> 00:23:25.950
now. Oh, mercy. It starts off with a very wonderful,

00:23:26.130 --> 00:23:30.349
genuine premise of what are the things that I've

00:23:30.349 --> 00:23:33.009
been experiencing and believing that are not

00:23:33.009 --> 00:23:38.220
true? Yeah. If there's things that I believe

00:23:38.220 --> 00:23:40.299
that are not true, I need to get rid of those

00:23:40.299 --> 00:23:45.019
things. Right. The problem is more often than

00:23:45.019 --> 00:23:51.740
not, when we go down that road, we don't have

00:23:51.740 --> 00:23:57.779
anchors. There needs to be anchors that are unmovable.

00:23:57.980 --> 00:24:01.079
True. So I'm going to give you my top two anchors.

00:24:01.259 --> 00:24:06.319
Okay. Number one, Jesus Christ is Lord. Amen.

00:24:06.619 --> 00:24:09.380
Lord, Savior, Master, King, Messiah, whichever

00:24:09.380 --> 00:24:13.079
way you like to phrase it. He's the top one.

00:24:13.220 --> 00:24:17.980
That is not changing. Number two is the word

00:24:17.980 --> 00:24:23.799
of God is true. Yes. Even the parts I don't like.

00:24:24.660 --> 00:24:28.619
Right. I'll never forget. It was Francis Chan

00:24:28.619 --> 00:24:32.069
in his book Erasing Hell. He was talking about

00:24:32.069 --> 00:24:35.329
how 15, 20 years ago, there was a whole bunch

00:24:35.329 --> 00:24:37.069
of people trying to say that hell wasn't real

00:24:37.069 --> 00:24:38.650
and didn't exist. And there's still people in

00:24:38.650 --> 00:24:42.710
the progressive wings of faith. I will not call

00:24:42.710 --> 00:24:45.029
them Christianity because they don't believe

00:24:45.029 --> 00:24:48.130
Jesus is Lord and King and Messiah. But they

00:24:48.130 --> 00:24:50.589
basically said, well, our concept of hell is

00:24:50.589 --> 00:24:52.630
false. It's not biblical. It's not this, whatever.

00:24:53.470 --> 00:24:57.009
Francis wrote a rebuttal and beautiful book.

00:24:57.170 --> 00:24:59.869
But one of the things he says in there is. Everything

00:24:59.869 --> 00:25:05.089
I read in the Bible is true. He says, I don't

00:25:05.089 --> 00:25:08.089
have to like something for it to be truth. And

00:25:08.089 --> 00:25:11.309
he was honest. He said the concept of hell is

00:25:11.309 --> 00:25:14.430
something he doesn't like because his compassionate

00:25:14.430 --> 00:25:18.210
heart breaks to think that there's anyone that's

00:25:18.210 --> 00:25:21.009
ever going to have to experience that. But his

00:25:21.009 --> 00:25:22.910
compassionate heart doesn't change scripture.

00:25:23.069 --> 00:25:27.299
It's true. And so those are my two anchors. There's

00:25:27.299 --> 00:25:29.319
a few other things that I have, you know, put

00:25:29.319 --> 00:25:32.279
some pins in that I'm holding a little more firmly.

00:25:32.359 --> 00:25:36.619
But those are my two main anchors. And so whenever

00:25:36.619 --> 00:25:39.579
I have a question about something, I can shake

00:25:39.579 --> 00:25:43.200
things off the tree. I can cut limbs off. Yeah.

00:25:43.259 --> 00:25:45.769
But those two things are going to stay. Yep.

00:25:46.430 --> 00:25:49.450
Unfortunately, a lot of people, when they start

00:25:49.450 --> 00:25:51.490
shaking the limbs on the tree, they haven't placed

00:25:51.490 --> 00:25:55.430
anchors in those two things. And then you get

00:25:55.430 --> 00:25:58.329
in the deconstruction movement where they go

00:25:58.329 --> 00:26:03.490
from pruning trees to bulldozing forests. Yeah.

00:26:03.869 --> 00:26:06.430
Yeah, it's true. You know, we've been having

00:26:06.430 --> 00:26:10.190
a lot of wind lately. And Philip made the comment

00:26:10.190 --> 00:26:12.589
about. The fallout that comes from that, the

00:26:12.589 --> 00:26:14.529
limbs that break off, the branches that break

00:26:14.529 --> 00:26:17.569
off, is God's way of pruning the trees. Yes.

00:26:17.710 --> 00:26:20.690
And so they fall off because there's no life

00:26:20.690 --> 00:26:23.650
in them. And something has gone wrong. They've

00:26:23.650 --> 00:26:26.470
been eaten out by bugs or whatever. And sometimes

00:26:26.470 --> 00:26:29.009
you have whole trees that go down because they're

00:26:29.009 --> 00:26:31.690
rotten on the inside. And I think what you're

00:26:31.690 --> 00:26:34.470
talking about fits with that, that, you know,

00:26:34.470 --> 00:26:37.619
don't cut off a living limb. Amen. But it's okay

00:26:37.619 --> 00:26:39.660
to let go of the limb that has gotten rotten.

00:26:40.039 --> 00:26:44.480
And it's not hard to look at all those things

00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:46.119
we talked about, all those scandals, all those

00:26:46.119 --> 00:26:49.099
places of brokenness and recognize the church

00:26:49.099 --> 00:26:52.019
is struggling. It's in crisis. It's broken. Yeah.

00:26:52.059 --> 00:26:57.259
And so one way people deal with that is deconstruction.

00:26:57.859 --> 00:26:59.779
They throw the baby out with the bathwater. They

00:26:59.779 --> 00:27:03.359
bulldoze the forest and they build from the ground

00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:07.519
up and it's never finished. Never kingdom anymore.

00:27:08.220 --> 00:27:11.119
Yeah. But on the other hand, there's people that

00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:16.220
like, OK, I'm still holding on to Jesus, but

00:27:16.220 --> 00:27:19.799
everything else gets loosey goosey. And I told

00:27:19.799 --> 00:27:21.599
you there's things I hold a pretty firm pin in.

00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:27.700
One of my firm pins is the necessity of the local

00:27:27.700 --> 00:27:33.910
church. Because the Bible says. Do not forsake

00:27:33.910 --> 00:27:36.910
the gathering together of the believers, even

00:27:36.910 --> 00:27:40.710
more so as the day approaches of Christ's return.

00:27:40.890 --> 00:27:44.349
Right. I don't care what you believe about eschatology.

00:27:44.910 --> 00:27:47.470
We are clearly closer today than we were when

00:27:47.470 --> 00:27:50.769
that was written. Absolutely. And so we should

00:27:50.769 --> 00:27:54.829
be diligent. But what happens is when we have

00:27:54.829 --> 00:27:57.190
wounding in the church, when we see pastors that

00:27:57.190 --> 00:28:00.250
fail, we begin to think, oh, well, the problem

00:28:00.250 --> 00:28:05.650
are pastors. But how many hundreds of thousands

00:28:05.650 --> 00:28:08.089
of pastors are there that are straight and pure?

00:28:08.369 --> 00:28:12.609
Amen. Tons of them. But when pastors become the

00:28:12.609 --> 00:28:14.109
problem, we have to replace the pastor with something

00:28:14.109 --> 00:28:18.190
else. Oh, that's an interesting thought. God

00:28:18.190 --> 00:28:21.609
actually, well, Christ specifically, divided

00:28:21.609 --> 00:28:25.549
the essence of his ministry into five giftings.

00:28:25.890 --> 00:28:30.819
True. You're familiar. The Ephesians 4 .11. They

00:28:30.819 --> 00:28:33.559
are the elders of the church. And you have the

00:28:33.559 --> 00:28:37.059
apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the

00:28:37.059 --> 00:28:42.660
pastors, and the teachers. And we have created

00:28:42.660 --> 00:28:45.599
structures around that, some of which is good.

00:28:45.700 --> 00:28:48.940
We need all of those in action in our church.

00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:54.119
But some churches have decided, oh, well, pastors

00:28:54.119 --> 00:28:57.059
are the problem. The fix is we need more apostles.

00:28:59.240 --> 00:29:02.299
Or we need more prophets. And in certain cultures

00:29:02.299 --> 00:29:06.359
even, we've created hierarchies. The apostle

00:29:06.359 --> 00:29:10.099
is more important than the evangelist. The evangelist

00:29:10.099 --> 00:29:12.900
is more important than the teacher. I feel bad

00:29:12.900 --> 00:29:14.579
for teachers. It doesn't matter which system

00:29:14.579 --> 00:29:17.119
you go with. People always put the teachers at

00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:20.440
the bottom. They're some of the ones you need

00:29:20.440 --> 00:29:22.259
the most because the teachers will teach you

00:29:22.259 --> 00:29:24.220
what is true so you can build a solid foundation.

00:29:24.599 --> 00:29:26.720
Maybe that's why they're on the bottom. Yeah,

00:29:26.740 --> 00:29:29.259
that makes sense. We treat them like they're

00:29:29.259 --> 00:29:32.500
at the bottom when we walk all over them. But

00:29:32.500 --> 00:29:36.460
God didn't say, I'm going to give you apostles

00:29:36.460 --> 00:29:39.019
to rule over everything. I'm going to give you

00:29:39.019 --> 00:29:42.339
prophets to be next in line. I'm going to give

00:29:42.339 --> 00:29:45.539
you evangelists, then pastors, then teachers.

00:29:45.799 --> 00:29:49.400
No, he said, I give these gifts to the body.

00:29:49.789 --> 00:29:52.069
For the equipping of the saints, for the work

00:29:52.069 --> 00:29:54.089
of the ministry. Right. And that's the part that

00:29:54.089 --> 00:29:57.950
we don't always hear. Lots of times people are

00:29:57.950 --> 00:30:00.849
focusing on the fivefold ministry without focusing

00:30:00.849 --> 00:30:03.210
on the purpose of the fivefold ministry, which

00:30:03.210 --> 00:30:06.210
is to ignite everybody in the body because we

00:30:06.210 --> 00:30:08.250
need all hands on deck. Because we're better

00:30:08.250 --> 00:30:13.009
together. Exactly. So what has happened, while

00:30:13.009 --> 00:30:15.670
some people have just said, it's all bad, burn

00:30:15.670 --> 00:30:18.960
it down. And certainly living where I live and

00:30:18.960 --> 00:30:20.740
seeing some of the things I've seen in my region

00:30:20.740 --> 00:30:23.180
recently, I have friends that are burning it

00:30:23.180 --> 00:30:25.500
all down right now. And I'm praying that I can

00:30:25.500 --> 00:30:28.799
give them a cup of cool water because don't make

00:30:28.799 --> 00:30:32.019
dumb choices when you react to things. Right.

00:30:32.700 --> 00:30:34.740
But some people aren't in the bulldoze it all

00:30:34.740 --> 00:30:37.400
down phase. They're just like, oh, we need to

00:30:37.400 --> 00:30:39.940
shift and we need to change things. And there

00:30:39.940 --> 00:30:43.960
was a movement that started years ago where.

00:30:44.750 --> 00:30:48.009
We wanted to create hubs and networks. One of

00:30:48.009 --> 00:30:51.109
our sayings at our church is we want to create

00:30:51.109 --> 00:30:54.630
a hub for the Holy Spirit to move in our region.

00:30:55.210 --> 00:30:57.890
And so we love to network with other churches

00:30:57.890 --> 00:31:00.009
and other ministries to accomplish the will of

00:31:00.009 --> 00:31:03.869
God in our community. Good. But in places where

00:31:03.869 --> 00:31:06.450
we've believed that pastors are the problem,

00:31:06.509 --> 00:31:09.450
the local church is the problem, we've created

00:31:09.450 --> 00:31:15.119
hubs apart from the local church. And we've created

00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:17.920
ministries that don't have pastors. And what

00:31:17.920 --> 00:31:20.779
is the role of the pastor? It's the shepherd.

00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:24.680
Right. And if you don't have shepherds tending

00:31:24.680 --> 00:31:27.460
to sheep, then you're going to have sheep that

00:31:27.460 --> 00:31:29.980
are going to fall apart. They're going to go

00:31:29.980 --> 00:31:33.799
astray. We need the teachers in every church,

00:31:33.839 --> 00:31:36.759
every apostolic ministry, every revival center,

00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:40.039
every hub, every this, every that. You can put

00:31:40.039 --> 00:31:43.059
whatever name you want to put on it. The only

00:31:43.059 --> 00:31:45.619
reason you're not calling it church is because

00:31:45.619 --> 00:31:49.759
church is no longer cool. And unfortunately,

00:31:49.880 --> 00:31:52.140
a lot of those ministries, they want to do all

00:31:52.140 --> 00:31:54.420
of the trappings of church. Right. They want

00:31:54.420 --> 00:31:56.660
to have the big meetings. They want to have the

00:31:56.660 --> 00:31:58.440
fancy speakers. They want to have the cool worship.

00:31:58.539 --> 00:32:01.420
They want the big offerings. But they don't want

00:32:01.420 --> 00:32:03.599
the responsibility of pastoring and shepherding.

00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:07.960
Wow. And that's why we have a whole bunch of

00:32:07.960 --> 00:32:11.240
places that can ordain you real quick. Oh, wow.

00:32:12.559 --> 00:32:16.500
And send you off as the next hot shot minister.

00:32:16.900 --> 00:32:19.920
Oh, mercy. And you have zero connection and zero

00:32:19.920 --> 00:32:22.599
discipleship and no one actively making you grow.

00:32:23.079 --> 00:32:25.859
Wow. And no one you're responsible to. Yeah.

00:32:26.279 --> 00:32:28.359
You may have, if you want to be part of our network,

00:32:28.440 --> 00:32:29.980
you got to pay your fees, your dues, your whatever.

00:32:31.079 --> 00:32:33.859
That's not you speaking personally of your network.

00:32:33.960 --> 00:32:35.480
No, no. But that's what you're saying. That's

00:32:35.480 --> 00:32:36.680
what a lot of these networks, you know, they

00:32:36.680 --> 00:32:39.700
have dues, they have fees, whatever. I've been

00:32:39.700 --> 00:32:43.519
ordained twice. And neither ministry that I'm

00:32:43.519 --> 00:32:46.779
ordained through has ever required a dime from

00:32:46.779 --> 00:32:51.200
me. Hallelujah. And I've never had to pay a yearly

00:32:51.200 --> 00:32:54.819
fee to keep my license current. There's not,

00:32:54.880 --> 00:32:57.680
you know, if some ministry, some denominations,

00:32:57.700 --> 00:32:59.779
you know, they have a, you pay the fee for the

00:32:59.779 --> 00:33:04.140
license. Okay, whatever. But when you're paying

00:33:04.140 --> 00:33:06.880
for the privilege to be a minister and you're

00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:10.349
not ministering because the Presbytery, witness

00:33:10.349 --> 00:33:13.130
the call of God on your life, attested to it

00:33:13.130 --> 00:33:14.509
with the laying on of hands and commissioned

00:33:14.509 --> 00:33:16.250
you to go and do the work. You know, when Paul

00:33:16.250 --> 00:33:20.509
was sent out, Paul, the greatest of the apostles

00:33:20.509 --> 00:33:22.289
in most people's eyes because of all the books

00:33:22.289 --> 00:33:24.650
he wrote. And, you know, he was the loudest voice

00:33:24.650 --> 00:33:27.930
in the room. Sure. Well, maybe Peter. Yeah. Because

00:33:27.930 --> 00:33:31.430
Peter was clearly a loud mouth. But Paul was

00:33:31.430 --> 00:33:35.750
a better writer. It specifically said that when

00:33:35.750 --> 00:33:37.210
Paul would go out on his missionary journeys,

00:33:37.490 --> 00:33:42.849
he was eager to come home to Antioch to tell

00:33:42.849 --> 00:33:46.170
of the things that the Lord had done. Yeah. And

00:33:46.170 --> 00:33:48.230
so one of the ways we've thrown the baby out

00:33:48.230 --> 00:33:52.369
with the bathwater is we have devalued the local

00:33:52.369 --> 00:33:55.690
church. We've devalued the necessity of shepherding.

00:33:56.690 --> 00:34:02.220
And in doing so, our hubs, our centers. Our whatever

00:34:02.220 --> 00:34:05.359
trendy phrase you want to use to not call it

00:34:05.359 --> 00:34:09.840
a church are not discipling our community. Wow.

00:34:10.179 --> 00:34:13.760
And if such and such, such and such apostolic

00:34:13.760 --> 00:34:19.880
hub in grand national city of Utah closes its

00:34:19.880 --> 00:34:23.360
doors, no one's going to remember. No one's going

00:34:23.360 --> 00:34:26.960
to care. The community will not be affected because

00:34:26.960 --> 00:34:30.219
you're not affecting your community now. Wow.

00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:35.360
Yeah. The local church in scriptures always shaped

00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:38.300
their communities. True. Always had impact in

00:34:38.300 --> 00:34:40.679
their local city. Even if they were hated and

00:34:40.679 --> 00:34:43.340
persecuted, you couldn't deny that they were

00:34:43.340 --> 00:34:45.960
there and they were doing something big. Wow.

00:34:46.659 --> 00:34:50.420
Pastors are very missional. Pastors, they care

00:34:50.420 --> 00:34:53.340
about their sheep. They want to see you discipled

00:34:53.340 --> 00:34:57.659
and grow. When you call your favorite evangelist

00:34:57.659 --> 00:35:01.000
who you've given every month to because, You

00:35:01.000 --> 00:35:02.800
really enjoyed that message they preached on

00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:06.780
the TV that one time. And you say, hey, I'm in

00:35:06.780 --> 00:35:09.960
the hospital right now. I have such and such

00:35:09.960 --> 00:35:12.119
infection and they don't know what's going to

00:35:12.119 --> 00:35:14.659
happen. It's not the televangelist that's going

00:35:14.659 --> 00:35:18.300
to come to your hospital. Maybe if you live in

00:35:18.300 --> 00:35:20.980
a close enough community, your apostle, your

00:35:20.980 --> 00:35:24.019
prophet friends, they might show up. But if you're

00:35:24.019 --> 00:35:27.039
in a local church and you have a pastor, chances

00:35:27.039 --> 00:35:31.559
are your pastor is going to be there. And, you

00:35:31.559 --> 00:35:34.219
know, I do not say this. Let me clarify and be

00:35:34.219 --> 00:35:37.239
clear. I love apostles. I love prophets. I love

00:35:37.239 --> 00:35:38.880
evangelists. I love pastors. I love teachers.

00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:42.840
We need all of them. And they all function in

00:35:42.840 --> 00:35:46.440
different roles. And there's not one that's better

00:35:46.440 --> 00:35:49.300
than the other. And there's not one that's worse

00:35:49.300 --> 00:35:54.360
than the other. And because we have devalued

00:35:54.360 --> 00:35:58.300
some at the expense, we devalue teachers. And

00:35:58.300 --> 00:36:00.179
so we're not teaching good doctrine. We're letting

00:36:00.179 --> 00:36:04.239
bad theology creep into our churches. Statistically,

00:36:04.420 --> 00:36:07.599
and this is like the Barna Group has studied

00:36:07.599 --> 00:36:10.840
this out, charismatic and Pentecostal churches

00:36:10.840 --> 00:36:16.079
are some of the most biblically uneducated in

00:36:16.079 --> 00:36:18.960
the world. And it shouldn't be. If you go back

00:36:18.960 --> 00:36:22.599
to the early days of Pentecostalism. The 1910s,

00:36:22.599 --> 00:36:25.000
the 1920s, you know, the post Azusa Street, when

00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:27.199
you started to have the Church of God in Christ

00:36:27.199 --> 00:36:30.300
and the Assemblies of God and everything rising

00:36:30.300 --> 00:36:33.260
up in the four square. Pentecostal theologians

00:36:33.260 --> 00:36:37.280
were on the forefront of publishing papers and

00:36:37.280 --> 00:36:40.659
theological treaties on what they believed and

00:36:40.659 --> 00:36:44.420
why. And even though there was much disagreement.

00:36:45.079 --> 00:36:48.179
Between them and their cessationist friends who

00:36:48.179 --> 00:36:50.639
didn't believe in the Pentecostal outworking

00:36:50.639 --> 00:36:54.780
of the Holy Spirit, there was a level of communication.

00:36:54.880 --> 00:36:57.300
Hey, we're going to explain this using scripture.

00:36:57.639 --> 00:37:01.800
Yeah. Now we've gotten to an anti -intellectual

00:37:01.800 --> 00:37:05.280
place where, well, it's the Holy Spirit, so you

00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:08.460
can't teach that. You can only catch that. Oh,

00:37:08.460 --> 00:37:11.239
honestly. And if you need theology, well, I just

00:37:11.239 --> 00:37:15.590
need Jesus. Another area, you do need Jesus.

00:37:15.789 --> 00:37:19.369
You do need experience. But you need theology.

00:37:19.550 --> 00:37:22.429
You need to know the word. I teach in a Bible

00:37:22.429 --> 00:37:26.289
college. One of the things I expect is that my

00:37:26.289 --> 00:37:30.070
students will be able to explain what they mean

00:37:30.070 --> 00:37:32.989
when they say they speak in tongues, why they

00:37:32.989 --> 00:37:35.869
believe it's for today. I'm pro -speaking in

00:37:35.869 --> 00:37:40.530
tongues. I do that regularly. I think in some

00:37:40.530 --> 00:37:43.860
circles, though. They do it incorrectly. You

00:37:43.860 --> 00:37:46.840
know, when Paul talks about speaking out in tongues

00:37:46.840 --> 00:37:49.800
in 1 Corinthians 14, he talks about when you're

00:37:49.800 --> 00:37:52.000
in the church service and there's no interpreter,

00:37:52.260 --> 00:37:55.699
that's a problem. Right. And there's a lot of

00:37:55.699 --> 00:37:58.619
churches that don't even try to interpret. Yeah.

00:37:58.960 --> 00:38:01.360
They just, you know, someone shouts something

00:38:01.360 --> 00:38:04.360
out and they move on. Oh, my. The thing about

00:38:04.360 --> 00:38:08.679
being charismatic is it's messy. I mean, you've

00:38:08.679 --> 00:38:10.440
been charismatic for a long time. Long time.

00:38:10.440 --> 00:38:14.420
So you know it's messy. Yeah. So a lot of churches

00:38:14.420 --> 00:38:18.059
would rather not do the thing so they don't have

00:38:18.059 --> 00:38:20.639
to deal with the mess. Well, yeah. Our church

00:38:20.639 --> 00:38:24.320
and my pastor, Pastor Brandon Stratton, says

00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:29.920
this regularly. He says, I am always going to

00:38:29.920 --> 00:38:34.000
pastor those moments. Good. And I am not afraid

00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:37.369
if something goes wrong. We're going to own it.

00:38:37.469 --> 00:38:39.690
We're going to deal with it and we're going to

00:38:39.690 --> 00:38:42.469
fix it. If something goes right and people don't

00:38:42.469 --> 00:38:45.389
understand what it is, I'm going to explain it.

00:38:45.570 --> 00:38:48.409
Good. So, for instance, a few weeks ago on a

00:38:48.409 --> 00:38:51.170
Sunday morning, someone gave a tongue and someone

00:38:51.170 --> 00:38:54.690
else came and gave the interpretation. And our

00:38:54.690 --> 00:38:56.670
church is a growing church and a lot of our growth

00:38:56.670 --> 00:38:58.909
is not people that were somewhere else. It's

00:38:58.909 --> 00:39:03.179
organic people that are being saved out of. All

00:39:03.179 --> 00:39:05.179
kinds of lifestyles. Hallelujah. That don't have

00:39:05.179 --> 00:39:08.280
a grid for what this is. Yes. These are the exact

00:39:08.280 --> 00:39:11.840
ones that Paul's talking about. Right. So our

00:39:11.840 --> 00:39:14.880
pastor got up after that and he said, well, amen.

00:39:15.119 --> 00:39:17.699
Praise God. We're excited for the word of the

00:39:17.699 --> 00:39:19.940
Lord. Some of you may wonder what just happened

00:39:19.940 --> 00:39:22.980
because that's kind of a little weird when someone.

00:39:23.519 --> 00:39:27.340
stands up and shakamahanda, you know. Yes, I

00:39:27.340 --> 00:39:29.239
have influenced our church culture. People are

00:39:29.239 --> 00:39:31.380
now saying shakamahanda to reference tongues

00:39:31.380 --> 00:39:33.960
because somewhere along the line, that became

00:39:33.960 --> 00:39:37.039
my thing that I say when I'm explaining tongues.

00:39:37.860 --> 00:39:40.699
So those of you that are listening, if you need

00:39:40.699 --> 00:39:42.340
to explain to tongues, you say sometimes you

00:39:42.340 --> 00:39:46.840
just shakamahanda, you know, but that might be

00:39:46.840 --> 00:39:50.059
a little strange to you. But what happens is

00:39:50.059 --> 00:39:54.340
the Lord was giving a word in a language of heaven

00:39:54.340 --> 00:39:57.760
to this person. And this person heard the word

00:39:57.760 --> 00:40:00.539
and interpreted it for us so we could hear the

00:40:00.539 --> 00:40:04.059
message God was given. And we believe that God

00:40:04.059 --> 00:40:05.820
speaks to us and it's a blessing. It's something

00:40:05.820 --> 00:40:07.460
to that effect. You know, it was a couple weeks

00:40:07.460 --> 00:40:09.760
ago. I can't fully remember how he did it, but

00:40:09.760 --> 00:40:13.280
he took 45 seconds. To explain what happened.

00:40:13.480 --> 00:40:15.699
Good. And then we moved on with the service.

00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:18.400
That's a good pastor. Sure. We had services because

00:40:18.400 --> 00:40:20.860
we are a church that believes in deliverance.

00:40:21.039 --> 00:40:23.679
Good. Y 'all want to have a conversation on that

00:40:23.679 --> 00:40:25.579
sometime? We can have a different conversation

00:40:25.579 --> 00:40:27.500
on that. I know not everybody shares our views,

00:40:27.679 --> 00:40:30.579
but we actually did a teaching series on it.

00:40:30.619 --> 00:40:33.559
So we're willing to defend what we believe. Good.

00:40:33.880 --> 00:40:37.659
We had a service where a woman was getting delivered

00:40:37.659 --> 00:40:41.639
in the meeting. Okay. And we did not like. Have

00:40:41.639 --> 00:40:43.980
the ushers escort them into a private room in

00:40:43.980 --> 00:40:45.679
the back. And, you know, certainly there are

00:40:45.679 --> 00:40:48.619
times you do that kind of stuff. But it was a

00:40:48.619 --> 00:40:51.119
loud moment that everything was happening. And

00:40:51.119 --> 00:40:53.360
it was one of those we felt in the immediacy

00:40:53.360 --> 00:40:56.780
of the moment she needed delivered. And so we

00:40:56.780 --> 00:41:00.840
didn't mess around. And the worship team kept

00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:03.380
worshiping. The sound person turned the speakers

00:41:03.380 --> 00:41:06.719
just a little bit higher. The, you know, one

00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:09.679
of the other pastors started leading some intercession.

00:41:10.529 --> 00:41:12.469
Drawing the focus away because we're not putting

00:41:12.469 --> 00:41:14.190
on a show. You don't need to see this woman's

00:41:14.190 --> 00:41:16.730
business. That's very good. But then she got

00:41:16.730 --> 00:41:19.989
delivered. Hallelujah. And as sometimes happens,

00:41:20.130 --> 00:41:24.590
when she got delivered, there was a scream. I

00:41:24.590 --> 00:41:27.730
don't know why that happens. It's a thing that

00:41:27.730 --> 00:41:31.469
happens from time to time. And after that, our

00:41:31.469 --> 00:41:34.670
pastor gets up and he says, hey, I want to thank

00:41:34.670 --> 00:41:37.329
you guys for bearing with us and interceding.

00:41:37.329 --> 00:41:40.369
We are Freedom Church. And we believe there are

00:41:40.369 --> 00:41:43.230
places in our lives where we need freedom. She

00:41:43.230 --> 00:41:46.090
just got free. And pretty soon we're going to

00:41:46.090 --> 00:41:48.190
give her an opportunity to tell her testimony

00:41:48.190 --> 00:41:50.849
about what God's done. But I want you to know

00:41:50.849 --> 00:41:53.889
that she was being tormented by things from her

00:41:53.889 --> 00:41:56.570
past. And the Lord Jesus just set her free from

00:41:56.570 --> 00:42:00.369
that right now. Beautiful. And thank you for

00:42:00.369 --> 00:42:03.329
worshiping and praying and believing with us

00:42:03.329 --> 00:42:06.409
for her to get free. That's tremendous. That's

00:42:06.409 --> 00:42:08.519
all we had to say. Tremendous. We didn't have

00:42:08.519 --> 00:42:11.900
to in that moment give the 45 -minute teaching

00:42:11.900 --> 00:42:16.719
on the Greek word demonizo. I'll throw down on

00:42:16.719 --> 00:42:19.079
that if I need to. That's great. But in the moment,

00:42:19.119 --> 00:42:22.059
people just needed to know she was being tormented.

00:42:22.599 --> 00:42:26.619
She got free. Let's praise Jesus. Amen. Yes,

00:42:26.619 --> 00:42:29.900
Father. That's beautiful. Doing all that is difficult.

00:42:30.500 --> 00:42:33.280
It's time -consuming. Yeah. It takes effort.

00:42:34.519 --> 00:42:37.710
It's a lot easier. Just to do things and move

00:42:37.710 --> 00:42:40.750
on. Right. That's why we need pastors. That's

00:42:40.750 --> 00:42:43.570
why we need leaders that care. People with a

00:42:43.570 --> 00:42:45.889
shepherding heart. Right. Whatever title you

00:42:45.889 --> 00:42:47.949
want to put on your business card is cool. I'm

00:42:47.949 --> 00:42:49.550
not going to fight you. Well, the word pastor

00:42:49.550 --> 00:42:52.769
means shepherd. Yeah. And there are people who

00:42:52.769 --> 00:42:55.210
would call themselves an apostle that absolutely

00:42:55.210 --> 00:42:58.210
have a shepherding heart. There's people that

00:42:58.210 --> 00:43:00.489
call themselves a prophet that absolutely love

00:43:00.489 --> 00:43:01.849
people and have a shepherding heart and they

00:43:01.849 --> 00:43:04.300
want to see them succeed. Unfortunately, there's

00:43:04.300 --> 00:43:07.320
equally as many apostles, prophets, evangelists,

00:43:07.360 --> 00:43:09.880
teachers, whatever, that don't have the shepherding

00:43:09.880 --> 00:43:13.019
heart. Honestly, there's plenty of pastors that

00:43:13.019 --> 00:43:14.400
don't have the shepherding heart. They just fell

00:43:14.400 --> 00:43:19.619
into the job. It's a job. It is. And it doesn't

00:43:19.619 --> 00:43:22.480
always pay enough. Most of the time, I think

00:43:22.480 --> 00:43:25.880
it doesn't. But you can't have a thriving ministry

00:43:25.880 --> 00:43:29.119
without someone who's shepherding the people.

00:43:29.400 --> 00:43:32.440
Yes. Jesus' commission was to make disciples.

00:43:33.239 --> 00:43:34.800
You know, if you read the five Great Commission

00:43:34.800 --> 00:43:38.360
passages of Scripture, he tells you what to do,

00:43:38.440 --> 00:43:41.659
when to do it, where to do it, how to do it,

00:43:41.699 --> 00:43:44.420
and what your metric is to know that it's working.

00:43:44.760 --> 00:43:47.739
Okay. Just unpack that a little bit. Sorry. Yeah,

00:43:47.800 --> 00:43:51.179
I guess that was a bit of a statement. Everybody

00:43:51.179 --> 00:43:52.420
knows when they think of the Great Commission,

00:43:52.500 --> 00:43:55.079
they think of Matthew 28. You know, go into all

00:43:55.079 --> 00:43:57.159
the worlds, make disciples, teaching them to

00:43:57.159 --> 00:43:59.039
obey, baptizing them in the name of the Father,

00:43:59.059 --> 00:44:02.559
Son, and the Holy Spirit. Right. Sometimes we

00:44:02.559 --> 00:44:06.840
think of Mark chapter 16 where it says, and these

00:44:06.840 --> 00:44:09.099
signs will follow them that believe. In my name

00:44:09.099 --> 00:44:11.039
they will cast out demons, cleanse lepers, heal

00:44:11.039 --> 00:44:12.980
the sick, raise the dead, speak in new tongues,

00:44:13.119 --> 00:44:19.960
etc. Luke gives his rendition. John gives his

00:44:19.960 --> 00:44:22.460
rendition. And then in Acts, right before Jesus

00:44:22.460 --> 00:44:25.320
goes up, the famous one that every Pentecostal

00:44:25.320 --> 00:44:30.070
loves, you shall receive power. When the Holy

00:44:30.070 --> 00:44:33.230
Ghost comes upon you. I don't know why, whenever

00:44:33.230 --> 00:44:35.750
I read that passage, I hear that deep Southern

00:44:35.750 --> 00:44:40.289
Pentecostal voice come out. And unfortunately,

00:44:40.789 --> 00:44:43.969
maybe you're a quick -witted listener and you

00:44:43.969 --> 00:44:47.269
caught it. When I quoted it, I only quoted half

00:44:47.269 --> 00:44:50.469
the verse. I stopped it when the Holy Ghost has

00:44:50.469 --> 00:44:53.909
come upon you. The verse continues, so you will

00:44:53.909 --> 00:44:56.530
be my witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria,

00:44:56.590 --> 00:44:58.989
and even to the ends of the earth. Right. And

00:44:58.989 --> 00:45:02.010
so there's this commission. We are to go into

00:45:02.010 --> 00:45:05.769
all the world. We are to teach and disciple.

00:45:06.329 --> 00:45:09.750
And we're going to baptize. And we're going to

00:45:09.750 --> 00:45:13.210
do it empowered by the Holy Spirit. Right. He's

00:45:13.210 --> 00:45:15.289
going to come upon us. We're going to be a witness.

00:45:15.469 --> 00:45:17.510
What does witnessing look like? It looks like

00:45:17.510 --> 00:45:21.889
teaching, discipling, baptizing. What happens?

00:45:22.090 --> 00:45:25.010
When the gospel is preached, signs and wonders

00:45:25.010 --> 00:45:27.769
follow. So when the gospel is preached, people

00:45:27.769 --> 00:45:29.269
are going to be healed. People are going to be

00:45:29.269 --> 00:45:31.110
saved. People are going to be delivered. The

00:45:31.110 --> 00:45:32.989
dead are going to be raised. I haven't had a

00:45:32.989 --> 00:45:35.210
chance to experience that. We're going to be

00:45:35.210 --> 00:45:38.630
able to pick up deadly serpents and drink poisons

00:45:38.630 --> 00:45:42.829
and not die. However, that does not mean that

00:45:42.829 --> 00:45:45.809
because Mark 16 says these things will follow,

00:45:45.909 --> 00:45:47.989
that we should expect that every service needs

00:45:47.989 --> 00:45:51.659
to have all of these things. Right. A firm disagreement

00:45:51.659 --> 00:45:53.780
with the snake handling churches. Right. I agree

00:45:53.780 --> 00:45:58.079
with you in your disagreement. But in some ways,

00:45:58.159 --> 00:46:02.219
I honor their commitment because they take it

00:46:02.219 --> 00:46:04.539
seriously and they believe that all these things

00:46:04.539 --> 00:46:07.760
should happen. We have people that believe that

00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:10.179
because Mark 16 says they will speak in new tongues,

00:46:10.340 --> 00:46:12.500
you're not a believer if you don't speak in tongues.

00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:15.579
But those same people are not handling snakes.

00:46:15.820 --> 00:46:17.820
Right. We pick and choose the parts that are

00:46:17.820 --> 00:46:21.480
most important to us. What Mark was actually

00:46:21.480 --> 00:46:26.059
saying is you're going to do the thing from Matthew.

00:46:26.820 --> 00:46:29.940
You're going to do it by the power from Acts.

00:46:30.519 --> 00:46:33.059
You're going to do what Luke and John said. And

00:46:33.059 --> 00:46:34.699
this is what it's going to look like. These things

00:46:34.699 --> 00:46:37.539
are going to come as a natural outcropping. Right.

00:46:37.639 --> 00:46:40.400
And we saw that. Paul got bit by the snake, shook

00:46:40.400 --> 00:46:43.659
it off. Right. You know, did Paul go chasing

00:46:43.659 --> 00:46:46.219
snakes and saying, come and bite me? No. But

00:46:46.219 --> 00:46:48.420
when it happened, for the sake of the gospel,

00:46:49.179 --> 00:46:53.219
He moved on. He was fine. Yep. And so we're told

00:46:53.219 --> 00:46:57.039
by the Lord what we're supposed to do. Discipleship

00:46:57.039 --> 00:47:01.400
is at the center of all of it. Yes. And yet discipleship

00:47:01.400 --> 00:47:06.739
is on the periphery of most ministry. That's

00:47:06.739 --> 00:47:11.679
sad. Yeah. You know, every one of the apostles

00:47:11.679 --> 00:47:16.559
made disciples. Yeah. Paul very famously. Not

00:47:16.559 --> 00:47:19.039
only did he make disciples, but we see him training

00:47:19.039 --> 00:47:21.579
his disciples to take over for him. We get the

00:47:21.579 --> 00:47:25.300
letters to Timothy and Titus and Philemon and

00:47:25.300 --> 00:47:30.019
things. Timothy was very clearly being told not

00:47:30.019 --> 00:47:33.880
just how to be a Christian, but how to do the

00:47:33.880 --> 00:47:39.179
ministry. And that's important. A lot of our

00:47:39.179 --> 00:47:42.460
ministries today are not doing that. And then

00:47:42.460 --> 00:47:45.940
when the figurehead leader dies. There's no one

00:47:45.940 --> 00:47:48.880
to continue the ministry. Right. And a mantle

00:47:48.880 --> 00:47:51.480
falls to the ground because there was no one

00:47:51.480 --> 00:47:54.699
being discipled to take it up. Yeah. And some

00:47:54.699 --> 00:47:57.260
of our churches haven't always known how to properly

00:47:57.260 --> 00:48:01.099
disciple. And God bless them as much as they

00:48:01.099 --> 00:48:05.119
know they try and do. Which is why we who know

00:48:05.119 --> 00:48:08.860
that, hmm, I did not get fully discipled into

00:48:08.860 --> 00:48:12.059
the position I'm in right now. I'm having to

00:48:12.059 --> 00:48:14.139
learn on the fly how to live my current life.

00:48:15.150 --> 00:48:17.210
I need to make sure that I fix that going forward

00:48:17.210 --> 00:48:19.949
for the next person. Very good. Because, you

00:48:19.949 --> 00:48:22.510
know, just because I'm the third generation of

00:48:22.510 --> 00:48:26.409
this ministry lineage, I shouldn't be the last

00:48:26.409 --> 00:48:28.869
generation. Right. The only way I should be the

00:48:28.869 --> 00:48:30.909
last generation is if the Lord returns and there

00:48:30.909 --> 00:48:34.489
are no more generations. Right. And that requires

00:48:34.489 --> 00:48:37.650
discipleship. Yes. But discipleship is messy.

00:48:37.789 --> 00:48:40.489
It requires shepherding. It requires time and

00:48:40.489 --> 00:48:43.679
intentionality. You know. One thing I love about

00:48:43.679 --> 00:48:46.400
Pastor Tony, who's coming to our convention,

00:48:46.780 --> 00:48:52.380
is he pastors pastors. Yes. He pastors us. Yeah.

00:48:52.460 --> 00:48:56.059
He no longer has a home church that he preaches

00:48:56.059 --> 00:49:00.380
at week in, week out. But he has a handful. I've

00:49:00.380 --> 00:49:03.579
never asked him how many. I mean, I know he's

00:49:03.579 --> 00:49:04.940
doing that for you guys because you've talked

00:49:04.940 --> 00:49:08.699
about that. But he's pastoring you. He's discipling

00:49:08.699 --> 00:49:11.280
you. I'm sure in the conversations that you guys

00:49:11.280 --> 00:49:13.840
have, he's pouring wisdom to help pull you to

00:49:13.840 --> 00:49:16.599
that next level because he wants to see you succeed.

00:49:16.800 --> 00:49:19.199
He wants to see you equipped to do the work of

00:49:19.199 --> 00:49:21.820
the ministry. And then he wants to see you actually

00:49:21.820 --> 00:49:23.980
do the work of the ministry. The equipping part's

00:49:23.980 --> 00:49:26.599
not enough if you don't actually do anything

00:49:26.599 --> 00:49:29.400
with the equipping. True. Just because you got

00:49:29.400 --> 00:49:33.199
a degree and a certificate doesn't mean you actually

00:49:33.199 --> 00:49:37.179
did ministry. Right. And there's a whole bunch

00:49:37.179 --> 00:49:39.940
of people that have certificates, they have ordinations,

00:49:40.219 --> 00:49:42.960
they have this, they have that, that aren't doing

00:49:42.960 --> 00:49:44.980
an ounce of ministry. They just have a collection

00:49:44.980 --> 00:49:47.619
of anointings that they have in their little

00:49:47.619 --> 00:49:52.340
home museum. Oh, I got anointed and impartation

00:49:52.340 --> 00:49:55.500
from Benny Hinn. Oh, I got anointing and impartation

00:49:55.500 --> 00:49:57.860
from Smith Wigglesworth. I got anointing and

00:49:57.860 --> 00:50:01.320
impartation from this and that. You know when

00:50:01.320 --> 00:50:03.579
that impartation has taken hold. Right. Yeah.

00:50:03.659 --> 00:50:08.000
I have an acquaintance. He's a bishop in a black

00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:11.260
Pentecostal church in Oklahoma. He got direct

00:50:11.260 --> 00:50:14.119
impartation from his father and he walks like

00:50:14.119 --> 00:50:18.059
his father. Beautiful. His father's in his 80s,

00:50:18.059 --> 00:50:22.239
90s now. Wow. His father received direct impartation

00:50:22.239 --> 00:50:25.659
from Bishop Mason, who was the founder of the

00:50:25.659 --> 00:50:27.760
Church of God in Christ. Okay. One of the leaders

00:50:27.760 --> 00:50:30.340
at Azusa Street with Brother Seymour and all

00:50:30.340 --> 00:50:34.619
of those. You can actually look at what Bishop

00:50:34.619 --> 00:50:37.539
Mason's ministry looked like. Yes. And you can

00:50:37.539 --> 00:50:41.619
see the heartbeat of that and the fruit of that

00:50:41.619 --> 00:50:46.300
in Bishop Weber. Beautiful. Now, Bishop Weber

00:50:46.300 --> 00:50:51.199
is a hip man of the 21st century. He dresses

00:50:51.199 --> 00:50:53.699
different. He talks a little different, you know.

00:50:54.590 --> 00:50:58.510
But you can see the inheritance of discipleship

00:50:58.510 --> 00:51:01.190
passed down from his father, from Bishop Mason.

00:51:01.530 --> 00:51:03.329
That's what kingdom is supposed to look like.

00:51:03.389 --> 00:51:08.610
Yes. How many of these centers that have divorced

00:51:08.610 --> 00:51:11.230
themselves from the local church are actually

00:51:11.230 --> 00:51:14.309
doing that? How much of your DNA has been put

00:51:14.309 --> 00:51:15.989
into the next generation so the next generation

00:51:15.989 --> 00:51:19.389
can do the things that you did for their generation

00:51:19.389 --> 00:51:22.269
and the ones that come after? Yeah. It's not

00:51:22.269 --> 00:51:24.519
always going to look the same. The generation

00:51:24.519 --> 00:51:26.880
that crossed the Jordan didn't cross the same

00:51:26.880 --> 00:51:29.059
way as the generation that crossed the Red Sea.

00:51:29.420 --> 00:51:31.920
Right. But they still crossed and they still

00:51:31.920 --> 00:51:34.679
entered into a promise. They still followed in

00:51:34.679 --> 00:51:37.059
the direction that was laid before them. Yes.

00:51:37.139 --> 00:51:41.280
Amen. Beautiful. You know, this idea of throwing

00:51:41.280 --> 00:51:44.679
out the baby with the bathwater, it's so easy

00:51:44.679 --> 00:51:48.380
when you're hurt or when you're disillusioned

00:51:48.380 --> 00:51:51.960
to just want to close the door on it and walk

00:51:51.960 --> 00:51:55.679
away. Oh, yeah. But that's not kingdom. That's

00:51:55.679 --> 00:51:59.860
not God's way. And when you are willing to throw

00:51:59.860 --> 00:52:02.559
out the body of Christ, what are you doing to

00:52:02.559 --> 00:52:06.139
the head? Absolutely. It doesn't work to have

00:52:06.139 --> 00:52:08.699
just a head without a body. We have to have the

00:52:08.699 --> 00:52:11.659
body. Oh, I mean, that's dismemberment. Yes.

00:52:11.940 --> 00:52:14.679
And what do we call the people that come to church?

00:52:15.320 --> 00:52:20.099
Church members. And we have a whole lot of ministries.

00:52:20.099 --> 00:52:22.360
We have a whole lot of wounded people that are

00:52:22.360 --> 00:52:24.639
dismembering. Some of them are dismembering themselves.

00:52:24.960 --> 00:52:27.500
Yes. But you need to be rooted. You need to be

00:52:27.500 --> 00:52:29.880
planted. I know we're mixing metaphors because

00:52:29.880 --> 00:52:32.780
there's all kinds of metaphors in Scripture.

00:52:33.280 --> 00:52:37.360
But one of the metaphors in John is that he is

00:52:37.360 --> 00:52:39.780
the vine and we are the branches. Right. And

00:52:39.780 --> 00:52:41.699
a branch that is in him is supposed to bear fruit.

00:52:41.960 --> 00:52:45.590
Right. You know what I've never seen in my entire

00:52:45.590 --> 00:52:48.150
life? What's that? I've never seen a tumbleweed

00:52:48.150 --> 00:52:51.889
that bears fruit. You're right. It's because

00:52:51.889 --> 00:52:53.949
they're uprooted. Yeah. They have no life in

00:52:53.949 --> 00:52:55.349
them, no connection. They're just blown about

00:52:55.349 --> 00:52:58.090
by the wind. Yes. And we have a whole bunch of

00:52:58.090 --> 00:53:01.489
people that are not rooted and grounded in the

00:53:01.489 --> 00:53:03.670
ultimate vine, which is Christ, but in the vine

00:53:03.670 --> 00:53:07.969
of the body of Christ. And they're not producing

00:53:07.969 --> 00:53:11.630
fruit. Right. And they think they're great because,

00:53:11.789 --> 00:53:14.380
you know. I'm a tree. But just like the trees

00:53:14.380 --> 00:53:16.760
that have been cut down by the wind here, you're

00:53:16.760 --> 00:53:18.500
not going to go into the forest and expect them

00:53:18.500 --> 00:53:22.019
to be producing peaches. Right. Or even acorns.

00:53:22.139 --> 00:53:25.340
Or even acorns. Another metaphor it uses, it

00:53:25.340 --> 00:53:27.480
calls us living stones and it says we are the

00:53:27.480 --> 00:53:31.320
temple of the Lord. And so you get those people

00:53:31.320 --> 00:53:34.519
that say, I don't have to go to church. I am

00:53:34.519 --> 00:53:37.699
the church. Let me be very clear. That is a lie.

00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:40.440
That is not found anywhere in the Bible. You.

00:53:41.050 --> 00:53:45.590
are not the church. You are a living stone that

00:53:45.590 --> 00:53:49.510
Christ is using to build the church. One stone

00:53:49.510 --> 00:53:53.550
does not make a temple. True. And in our hyper

00:53:53.550 --> 00:53:58.110
-individualistic society, we want to do bad all

00:53:58.110 --> 00:54:03.329
by ourselves. We don't want to have to be connected.

00:54:03.670 --> 00:54:07.789
When you're a stone in a wall, That means there's

00:54:07.789 --> 00:54:09.849
room for another stone to be pressed up on top

00:54:09.849 --> 00:54:12.050
of you. It can be uncomfortable. You're stuck.

00:54:12.110 --> 00:54:14.469
You don't always get to move the way you want

00:54:14.469 --> 00:54:18.650
to. Why? Because God is building something. Right.

00:54:18.909 --> 00:54:24.250
And I would rather feel stuck knowing that he's

00:54:24.250 --> 00:54:26.670
building something and I'm a part of it than

00:54:26.670 --> 00:54:32.690
be one of those broken bricks that gets put in

00:54:32.690 --> 00:54:34.849
the dumpster because we didn't need it for the

00:54:34.849 --> 00:54:38.800
wall. Wow. And there's all these consistent metaphors

00:54:38.800 --> 00:54:41.340
throughout scripture, the vine and the branches,

00:54:41.460 --> 00:54:44.860
the living stones in the temple, the body and

00:54:44.860 --> 00:54:48.340
its members. When I was teaching last Wednesday,

00:54:48.500 --> 00:54:51.019
I said, you know, we're a body with many members

00:54:51.019 --> 00:54:53.679
and I'm probably the long lobe of the liver.

00:54:53.820 --> 00:54:56.159
You might be the pretty painted fingernails.

00:54:56.659 --> 00:54:59.659
And I had at least three people come up to me

00:54:59.659 --> 00:55:01.500
since then and say, wow, that stuck with them

00:55:01.500 --> 00:55:04.050
because. Whenever somebody wants to talk about

00:55:04.050 --> 00:55:06.150
you're the body, they go like, well, you might

00:55:06.150 --> 00:55:07.869
be the heart or you might be the head or you

00:55:07.869 --> 00:55:10.090
might be the mouthpiece. We all know that talkative

00:55:10.090 --> 00:55:12.329
brother. We think you're the mouthpiece. No.

00:55:12.989 --> 00:55:15.610
You don't hear someone say you're the long, low

00:55:15.610 --> 00:55:18.429
liver or you're the pretty painted fingernails.

00:55:19.690 --> 00:55:23.030
But the reality is we all serve different purposes.

00:55:23.289 --> 00:55:27.250
Right. And he needs all of us. That's the problem

00:55:27.250 --> 00:55:31.150
is we want all the trappings without the connection.

00:55:32.210 --> 00:55:35.010
We want the Thanksgiving dinner, but we don't

00:55:35.010 --> 00:55:40.809
want to have to cook. And there's too many people

00:55:40.809 --> 00:55:44.469
that when they can't get it, then they just burn

00:55:44.469 --> 00:55:48.409
the whole thing down and they leave the gospel

00:55:48.409 --> 00:55:52.230
entirely. We haven't gotten far enough into this

00:55:52.230 --> 00:55:56.369
movement to be able to track numbers of what

00:55:56.369 --> 00:56:01.239
is the rate of deconstruction in. different denominations.

00:56:01.519 --> 00:56:04.599
And within Pentecostal charismatic circles, is

00:56:04.599 --> 00:56:08.059
it higher in Pentecostal holiness style churches,

00:56:08.340 --> 00:56:10.940
Assembly of God Pentecostal churches, modern

00:56:10.940 --> 00:56:13.699
charismatic churches, the prophetic movement?

00:56:14.400 --> 00:56:17.880
All of those places, you're still seeing people

00:56:17.880 --> 00:56:23.139
that are falling away. And we know the Bible

00:56:23.139 --> 00:56:24.780
says that's going to happen, says there's going

00:56:24.780 --> 00:56:27.840
to be a great falling away. Right. The problem

00:56:27.840 --> 00:56:31.510
is, Because we know the Bible says that, it's

00:56:31.510 --> 00:56:34.889
easy for us to not feel concerned about it. Oh.

00:56:35.650 --> 00:56:38.909
Well, they had to fall away. There's a great

00:56:38.909 --> 00:56:42.530
falling away. Oh, my, my, my, my. And certainly

00:56:42.530 --> 00:56:44.630
there has to be a great falling away because

00:56:44.630 --> 00:56:47.869
the Scripture says. But does it have to be them?

00:56:48.309 --> 00:56:52.429
Right, right. Could I have done something differently?

00:56:53.239 --> 00:56:56.159
to prevent them from being one of the branches

00:56:56.159 --> 00:56:58.739
that gets cut off and cast into the fire. Yeah.

00:56:59.219 --> 00:57:01.320
We've had people in our church that have left.

00:57:01.679 --> 00:57:04.199
Unfortunately, that's just the downside of life.

00:57:04.699 --> 00:57:06.639
Some of them left for great reasons. You know,

00:57:06.679 --> 00:57:08.280
they got a new job, a better job, moved across

00:57:08.280 --> 00:57:12.179
country, got married, you know, whatever. Those

00:57:12.179 --> 00:57:14.980
are good reasons. Yes. We've had other people

00:57:14.980 --> 00:57:16.599
that have left because they got offended, because

00:57:16.599 --> 00:57:18.940
things didn't work out the way they wanted, because

00:57:18.940 --> 00:57:20.519
they didn't get a position they thought they

00:57:20.519 --> 00:57:24.400
should have had, saying the right thing to them

00:57:24.400 --> 00:57:26.880
at the right time, you know. And some of those

00:57:26.880 --> 00:57:29.199
are legitimate things where, hey, people might

00:57:29.199 --> 00:57:32.260
not have talked to you the right way. Yeah. But

00:57:32.260 --> 00:57:37.059
I'd rather fix that. Yes. Come to me. Let's deal

00:57:37.059 --> 00:57:39.960
through it. Yeah. I've told my church staff that

00:57:39.960 --> 00:57:42.360
every one of you, if I offend you in any way,

00:57:42.480 --> 00:57:45.559
first off, know that that's not my heart, even

00:57:45.559 --> 00:57:48.679
though it will happen because I'm a very straightforward

00:57:48.679 --> 00:57:52.570
person. But number two, if I do it. Come and

00:57:52.570 --> 00:57:57.409
say, hey, this happened and I'll fix it. We'll

00:57:57.409 --> 00:57:59.250
fix it. We'll work through it. There's not a

00:57:59.250 --> 00:58:00.969
single person that's left our church over the

00:58:00.969 --> 00:58:03.530
five years that we've had our church that I wouldn't

00:58:03.530 --> 00:58:05.909
love to have come back and be a part of our fellowship

00:58:05.909 --> 00:58:10.889
anymore. Right. And that's because there's something

00:58:10.889 --> 00:58:13.449
that God's birthed inside of me where I have

00:58:13.449 --> 00:58:16.070
a genuine love. for the people in my church.

00:58:16.230 --> 00:58:18.949
Amen. Even the ones that I think are strange.

00:58:20.210 --> 00:58:22.329
You know, my church is not all perfect, lovable

00:58:22.329 --> 00:58:24.710
people. And yet I love all of them. That's life.

00:58:24.909 --> 00:58:28.250
I know. Yeah, that's normal. We need that in

00:58:28.250 --> 00:58:32.409
the body of Christ. Yes. We need to want the

00:58:32.409 --> 00:58:36.489
people back. If you've had your church, if you've

00:58:36.489 --> 00:58:39.929
had your center, if you've had your hub for 20

00:58:39.929 --> 00:58:43.349
years and it's never had new people come in,

00:58:43.909 --> 00:58:46.989
That's worrisome. Yeah. Because if you're fulfilling

00:58:46.989 --> 00:58:49.650
the Great Commission, you may never get bigger.

00:58:50.030 --> 00:58:53.449
You may never become a megachurch. Right. That's

00:58:53.449 --> 00:58:56.570
not necessarily a goal. No. I mean, you know,

00:58:56.590 --> 00:58:59.530
praise God for those churches that do accomplish

00:58:59.530 --> 00:59:01.789
those things, especially the ones that do it

00:59:01.789 --> 00:59:05.010
rightly and disciple their people well. But if

00:59:05.010 --> 00:59:08.210
you have a church of 25 people, but it's constantly

00:59:08.210 --> 00:59:11.099
growing. And people are getting saved. Your community

00:59:11.099 --> 00:59:12.860
is being transformed by it. If you have a church

00:59:12.860 --> 00:59:16.239
of 100 people, 500 people, 200 people, it doesn't

00:59:16.239 --> 00:59:20.539
matter. I have a friend whose church has never

00:59:20.539 --> 00:59:22.539
gotten significantly more than about 50 people.

00:59:23.039 --> 00:59:26.599
And his church has had a lot of turnover. The

00:59:26.599 --> 00:59:29.159
people that are going there now, almost none

00:59:29.159 --> 00:59:33.039
of them went there five years ago. Wow. But most

00:59:33.039 --> 00:59:34.380
of the people that have left his church have

00:59:34.380 --> 00:59:36.920
left for good reasons because God has done great

00:59:36.920 --> 00:59:39.579
things in their life. And sent them on to a new

00:59:39.579 --> 00:59:42.380
assignment, a new place. So it's not that you

00:59:42.380 --> 00:59:44.360
have to be a bigger church. It's not that you

00:59:44.360 --> 00:59:48.440
have to have more, more, more, more people. Yeah.

00:59:48.599 --> 00:59:50.440
But you have to be discipling people. People

00:59:50.440 --> 00:59:54.260
have to be growing. Yeah. Yeah. And I think we

00:59:54.260 --> 00:59:59.420
forget sometimes the importance of prayer for

00:59:59.420 --> 01:00:03.780
the believers. That, first of all, the believers,

01:00:04.000 --> 01:00:07.079
the members of the church should be praying for

01:00:07.079 --> 01:00:11.320
the pastor and the fivefold over them. I think

01:00:11.320 --> 01:00:13.420
a lot of these people who have fallen recently,

01:00:13.599 --> 01:00:16.340
if they had had a better intercessor space, I

01:00:16.340 --> 01:00:19.320
don't think they'd have fallen. Obviously, they

01:00:19.320 --> 01:00:22.260
made choices, but I think they might have had

01:00:22.260 --> 01:00:25.940
the grace to say no if they had had more intercession.

01:00:26.570 --> 01:00:29.070
That's something only God can say. But there's

01:00:29.070 --> 01:00:33.949
also the element of prayer among the fivefold

01:00:33.949 --> 01:00:39.690
for the sheep. That if the sheep are not prospering,

01:00:39.690 --> 01:00:43.019
is there enough prayer going on for them? And

01:00:43.019 --> 01:00:45.460
so, you know, it's important to have the intercessory

01:00:45.460 --> 01:00:47.559
team, but it's also important for the pastor

01:00:47.559 --> 01:00:51.659
to be praying. And in that prayer time, the prayer

01:00:51.659 --> 01:00:55.139
life of the pastor or whatever position that

01:00:55.139 --> 01:00:59.000
a person might have in the body, the Holy Spirit

01:00:59.000 --> 01:01:03.019
can show us things to pray for. And I think a

01:01:03.019 --> 01:01:06.260
lot of times we try to deal with things without

01:01:06.260 --> 01:01:09.119
praying. And I really feel like we're missing

01:01:09.119 --> 01:01:13.019
a link to the leading of the Holy Spirit that

01:01:13.019 --> 01:01:16.619
would cause a spirit of wisdom of how to deal

01:01:16.619 --> 01:01:19.099
with people so we can prevent some of this church

01:01:19.099 --> 01:01:22.519
hurt that's going on because people haven't learned

01:01:22.519 --> 01:01:25.559
how to speak the truth in love. Yeah. Prayer

01:01:25.559 --> 01:01:28.079
is a huge part of it. The other side of that

01:01:28.079 --> 01:01:30.880
coin, I think, too, is we need more authenticity.

01:01:32.099 --> 01:01:35.079
There is a paradigm, and I'm sure since you've

01:01:35.079 --> 01:01:37.739
been around ministry, especially charismatic

01:01:37.739 --> 01:01:40.719
ministry long enough, there's a paradigm where

01:01:40.719 --> 01:01:44.920
the leader needed to appear bulletproof and like

01:01:44.920 --> 01:01:49.239
they were Superman. And so when they had struggles,

01:01:49.420 --> 01:01:52.639
because they were the leader and they were at

01:01:52.639 --> 01:01:55.280
the top of the pyramid, there was nowhere for

01:01:55.280 --> 01:01:57.380
them to go and get the help they needed. Right.

01:01:57.710 --> 01:02:01.030
We are actively working to cultivate an atmosphere

01:02:01.030 --> 01:02:04.989
in our community where we're open and we're honest

01:02:04.989 --> 01:02:07.889
when we're struggling, you know, and we haven't

01:02:07.889 --> 01:02:10.610
always been good at that. The beautiful thing

01:02:10.610 --> 01:02:12.650
is that when things fall apart and you have to

01:02:12.650 --> 01:02:16.150
go through those times, you get the opportunity

01:02:16.150 --> 01:02:19.070
to try and fix it for next time. Yeah. Because

01:02:19.070 --> 01:02:22.250
life is not sunshine and rainbows. Yeah. It's

01:02:22.250 --> 01:02:25.380
not about. getting hit it's about how many times

01:02:25.380 --> 01:02:28.000
you get hit and keep moving forward get back

01:02:28.000 --> 01:02:30.059
up get back up you know who would have thought

01:02:30.059 --> 01:02:32.320
i would have been quoting rocky balboa you know

01:02:32.320 --> 01:02:36.440
life is going to continually throw things at

01:02:36.440 --> 01:02:38.599
us whether we're in ministry or whether we're

01:02:38.599 --> 01:02:42.579
believers what have you yeah but bible says when

01:02:42.579 --> 01:02:45.579
you confess your sins one to another he is faithful

01:02:45.579 --> 01:02:47.480
and just to forgive you and cleanse you of all

01:02:47.480 --> 01:02:53.320
unrighteousness but on top of that we are willing

01:02:53.320 --> 01:02:56.659
to confess when we've been caught. Some of us

01:02:56.659 --> 01:02:59.619
are willing to confess after we've done a thing.

01:02:59.920 --> 01:03:02.739
Praise God for the ones that confess before they're

01:03:02.739 --> 01:03:06.119
caught. But I think some of us need to begin

01:03:06.119 --> 01:03:10.079
to confess when the temptation comes. One of

01:03:10.079 --> 01:03:13.800
the big struggles in the world today is sexual

01:03:13.800 --> 01:03:16.579
addictions and things like that. When you're

01:03:16.579 --> 01:03:18.800
being tempted, don't wait until you've already

01:03:18.800 --> 01:03:21.719
fallen to then say, hey, I got this problem.

01:03:22.059 --> 01:03:25.039
Right. Say, hey, you know, I'm really struggling

01:03:25.039 --> 01:03:28.280
with these things and the devil's at my door

01:03:28.280 --> 01:03:30.500
and I'm feeling lonely and I'm feeling like if

01:03:30.500 --> 01:03:32.920
I'm not careful, I'm going to give in and fall.

01:03:33.760 --> 01:03:35.760
You need to have someone that you can go to and

01:03:35.760 --> 01:03:37.860
say that to who's going to sit with you, who's

01:03:37.860 --> 01:03:40.159
going to pray with you, who's going to do. You

01:03:40.159 --> 01:03:42.539
know, sometimes it's just as simple as, OK, why

01:03:42.539 --> 01:03:44.780
don't you come over? Let's watch football. You

01:03:44.780 --> 01:03:48.320
know, do something that's taking your mind off

01:03:48.320 --> 01:03:50.880
of that thing. Being in the company, certainly

01:03:50.880 --> 01:03:54.239
praying for one another is important. But sometimes

01:03:54.239 --> 01:03:58.460
just being present with somebody and giving them

01:03:58.460 --> 01:04:01.219
something to do that's pulling them away from

01:04:01.219 --> 01:04:03.920
the thing that's tempting them is a blessing.

01:04:04.079 --> 01:04:06.820
And a lot of ministers don't have that. A lot

01:04:06.820 --> 01:04:10.019
of church people don't have that. And we've created

01:04:10.019 --> 01:04:16.070
a system in many ministries. Not all, certainly

01:04:16.070 --> 01:04:18.010
not all, but in many ministries where there's

01:04:18.010 --> 01:04:20.309
a deep disconnect between the leaders and their

01:04:20.309 --> 01:04:24.250
people. Yeah. And that's not necessarily how

01:04:24.250 --> 01:04:27.869
it should be. No. And to comment on that issue

01:04:27.869 --> 01:04:31.269
and really any issue of temptation, everybody

01:04:31.269 --> 01:04:36.190
is temptable with something, you know. And bottom

01:04:36.190 --> 01:04:39.030
line is, one of the things that I have learned

01:04:39.030 --> 01:04:43.929
is just get down on your knees and pray through.

01:04:44.380 --> 01:04:46.340
Even if you don't have anybody to share it with,

01:04:46.460 --> 01:04:49.239
get down on your knees and the Holy Spirit will

01:04:49.239 --> 01:04:53.219
give you the grace to walk past it. The other

01:04:53.219 --> 01:04:56.000
thing I was thinking was a story that I heard

01:04:56.000 --> 01:04:59.139
from a minister that I've known for many years.

01:04:59.340 --> 01:05:02.900
And he never said what his temptation was when

01:05:02.900 --> 01:05:06.300
he was young, so we won't read into that. But

01:05:06.300 --> 01:05:09.679
he was agonizing over it with the Lord. And the

01:05:09.679 --> 01:05:13.550
Lord said, quit looking at that. And start doing

01:05:13.550 --> 01:05:16.769
what I told you to do. And when he just focused

01:05:16.769 --> 01:05:19.849
on what God had told him to do, six months later,

01:05:19.889 --> 01:05:22.809
he realized that whatever that thing was, wasn't

01:05:22.809 --> 01:05:25.289
a temptation anymore. That God had dealt with

01:05:25.289 --> 01:05:29.989
it just by him stopping the focus on the trouble

01:05:29.989 --> 01:05:33.170
that was bothering him. Well, Matthew, would

01:05:33.170 --> 01:05:36.789
you pray for our listeners and just let the Holy

01:05:36.789 --> 01:05:40.429
Spirit lead you? Sure. Father God, how great

01:05:40.429 --> 01:05:44.599
you are. I love that we can call you Father.

01:05:46.480 --> 01:05:50.699
Because that is such an intimate name. Yes. And

01:05:50.699 --> 01:05:56.679
the identity of God as Father, it informs so

01:05:56.679 --> 01:05:59.840
much of even what we've talked about today. Because

01:05:59.840 --> 01:06:02.239
you as a Father, you disciple and you shepherd

01:06:02.239 --> 01:06:05.619
and you love and you care for and you facilitate

01:06:05.619 --> 01:06:10.659
our needs and provide for us. Lord, I pray that...

01:06:11.690 --> 01:06:15.570
you would instill into your servants the heart

01:06:15.570 --> 01:06:20.349
of the Father. Hallelujah. That leaders in the

01:06:20.349 --> 01:06:23.809
body of Christ would be equipped with that same

01:06:23.809 --> 01:06:27.730
heart that you had to be able to disciple, to

01:06:27.730 --> 01:06:30.429
challenge, to strengthen, to comfort, to build

01:06:30.429 --> 01:06:34.690
up the body of Christ. And Lord, I pray for the

01:06:34.690 --> 01:06:38.650
body of Christ that we would be the kind of people

01:06:38.650 --> 01:06:43.289
that are deeply rooted and connected. God, it's

01:06:43.289 --> 01:06:46.750
always been your heart to grow your family. You've

01:06:46.750 --> 01:06:50.409
always wanted sons and daughters. You've given

01:06:50.409 --> 01:06:52.789
us the spirit of adoption by which we can cry,

01:06:52.889 --> 01:06:59.030
Abba, Father. And Lord, I pray that as a leader

01:06:59.030 --> 01:07:03.389
in areas where I have failed your body and I

01:07:03.389 --> 01:07:06.690
have ostracized your sons and your daughters,

01:07:06.889 --> 01:07:11.750
not just me, but... Leaders all over the world

01:07:11.750 --> 01:07:15.869
where we've made sons and daughters feel disconnected

01:07:15.869 --> 01:07:19.110
from the family and even led to them falling

01:07:19.110 --> 01:07:24.510
away from the faith. God, I repent. Show us the

01:07:24.510 --> 01:07:28.750
way that you love your sons and daughters. Show

01:07:28.750 --> 01:07:32.969
us the way you serve your children. Fill us up

01:07:32.969 --> 01:07:37.849
with that heart and that passion. Reconnect the

01:07:37.849 --> 01:07:41.190
members of your body. Yes. No longer allowing

01:07:41.190 --> 01:07:44.090
the body of Christ to be dismembered and scattered.

01:07:44.789 --> 01:07:48.010
But bring us together. Fill us in with unity.

01:07:48.389 --> 01:07:52.170
Yes. Father, I pray for church leaders and ministry

01:07:52.170 --> 01:07:54.530
leaders around the world, for the apostles, the

01:07:54.530 --> 01:07:57.010
prophets, the evangelists, the pastors, the teachers.

01:07:57.630 --> 01:08:00.090
I pray that they would come into a greater sense

01:08:00.090 --> 01:08:04.480
of unity and fellowship with one another. the

01:08:04.480 --> 01:08:07.320
hierarchy and competition within the body of

01:08:07.320 --> 01:08:10.159
Christ and its ministers, that it would begin

01:08:10.159 --> 01:08:14.739
to break as men and women seek after the Father

01:08:14.739 --> 01:08:17.460
heart of God. They seek after the equipping of

01:08:17.460 --> 01:08:19.960
the saints. They seek after the training and

01:08:19.960 --> 01:08:22.399
the preparing for the work of ministry. Yes.

01:08:22.460 --> 01:08:27.039
Lord, give us the diligence to fulfill the deep

01:08:27.039 --> 01:08:30.359
work of discipleship. Yes, Lord. Yes, Lord. Lord,

01:08:30.479 --> 01:08:33.869
you have never given up on your church. Amen.

01:08:34.189 --> 01:08:38.710
You have never forsaken your bride. Yes. We who

01:08:38.710 --> 01:08:41.829
are the living stones, Lord, fit us and join

01:08:41.829 --> 01:08:45.470
us together. Yes, Lord. And where we've been

01:08:45.470 --> 01:08:48.649
for a while and we've allowed the mortar between

01:08:48.649 --> 01:08:53.010
our bricks to start to erode, God, come in with

01:08:53.010 --> 01:08:56.510
the fresh oil of the Holy Spirit to rebuild the

01:08:56.510 --> 01:08:59.270
wall and restrengthen its connections. Yes, Lord.

01:08:59.409 --> 01:09:02.069
Hallelujah. Lord, we give you glory because we

01:09:02.069 --> 01:09:06.380
want to be. deeply rooted and grounded and found

01:09:06.380 --> 01:09:10.100
in you and in your heart. Yes, Lord. I bless

01:09:10.100 --> 01:09:11.979
the people that are listening today, and I pray

01:09:11.979 --> 01:09:15.119
that whatever it was that they needed to take

01:09:15.119 --> 01:09:18.640
away from this, that it wouldn't just be, well,

01:09:18.720 --> 01:09:20.979
I listened to the podcast. I'm good. I move on.

01:09:21.420 --> 01:09:24.100
But that it would root inside of them and begin

01:09:24.100 --> 01:09:27.819
to bear fruit. And in areas that they are doing

01:09:27.819 --> 01:09:31.640
well, God. Rejoice over them in areas where they

01:09:31.640 --> 01:09:35.180
need to shift and change their paradigm and think

01:09:35.180 --> 01:09:38.680
differently, God. Give them grace and passion

01:09:38.680 --> 01:09:42.479
to do so. Yes, Lord. Build up your body. Strengthen

01:09:42.479 --> 01:09:45.779
your church. Yes, Lord. Make us to be a light

01:09:45.779 --> 01:09:48.880
into this dark world. Yes. In the name of Jesus.

01:09:49.319 --> 01:09:58.399
Amen. If you enjoyed today's podcast, Please

01:09:58.399 --> 01:10:01.279
subscribe, rate, and review this podcast on Apple

01:10:01.279 --> 01:10:03.399
Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.

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01:10:09.520 --> 01:10:11.840
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01:10:12.079 --> 01:10:14.859
Check out our website at globaloutpouring .org

01:10:14.859 --> 01:10:17.680
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01:10:23.640 --> 01:10:27.060
Until next time, this is Sharon Buss. And I'm

01:10:27.060 --> 01:10:29.680
Philip Buss. God bless you with his overwhelming

01:10:29.680 --> 01:10:31.000
loving presence.