WEBVTT

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Hello, everybody. Thank you all so much for listening

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to Memingless, where we look into memes and internet

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phenomena to try to understand what in the hell

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it all means. Today, I am joined by a special

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guest. Holly, would you like to introduce yourself?

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Yeah. Hi, everyone. I am Holly Conrad. Used to

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be a YouTuber, do a bunch of online stuff, used

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to play D &D on stage. Now I'm going to get my

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master's to get my clinical mental health counselor's

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degree. And I still do internet stuff sometimes

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because it's still fun for me. And I like birds.

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The birds part, that's the important part. Of

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course, yeah. I used to have behind me a hierarchy

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of needs and it just said food at the bottom

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and then birds at the top on my whiteboard. I

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left it in for a school presentation. It's gone

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now. Birds are important. They are, yes. They're

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not real, though. I am so sorry. I beg to differ.

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I have so many. You're on the meme podcast. Of

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course I was going to say that. I know. I know.

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I do love the birds aren't real, though. It is

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funny. But please, they are very real. And they

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have feelings and they're adorable. Yeah, they

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do. So, for the listeners, today's format is

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going to be a little different than usual in

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a couple of ways. One, we are not starting with

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a meme as a springboard for the episode. And

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two, Holly and I have discussed at length what

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we are covering in today's episode, rather than

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me just springing some crazy shit on her. Like

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I do to most my guests. Oh, my God. Duke, Sam,

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Dr. Hoda, not even Bobby had the privilege of

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knowing the subject beforehand. But in this case,

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I actually reached out to you, Holly, because

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you yourself have been through the brunt of what

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Internet nonsense can become. Yeah, it's true.

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And when you reached out to me, too, I just thought

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the name was really clever. I was like, this

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is a good name. I was surprised it wasn't taken.

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I know. I was like, this is good. Yeah. And your

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episode's really solid. And we had a similar

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like. interest in research and an interest in

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current events and an interest in internet culture.

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And I was just impressed by everything that you

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did. So I was like, yeah, this sounds like a

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cool opportunity to talk about something like

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deeply traumatic, but also something that I think,

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again, has a through line to a lot of the things

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that are happening today and a lot of the things

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that we've as a society have been. Dealing with

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with no answers for like the past 10 years. Right.

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Yeah. Yeah. And we'll we'll talk briefly about

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that through line as well. Yeah. So today we're

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talking about cancel culture or public shaming,

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what it is, what what effects it has on individuals

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and on society. what it does and does not accomplish.

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The reason we wanted to put this episode together

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is to perhaps encourage more measured and thoughtful

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reactions when controversies occur and to help

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those who find themselves in a difficult situation

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with their own controversies to realize that

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there are reasonable minds out there who are

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capable of nuanced understanding of their situation.

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Being a target of harassment, like of a harassment

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campaign or public shaming can feel like the

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entire world is against you, but that usually

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comes from a very loud but very, very small minority.

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First, we need to define cancel culture. To put

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it briefly, cancel culture when it comes to social

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media is essentially the shaming of public figures

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with the intention of removing them from their

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social influence. quote, canceling their careers

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in social media. There are examples of cancel

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culture affecting other professions as well,

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but we will mostly be focusing on its effects

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in the social media influencer atmosphere. The

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first thing I would like to discuss is What impacts

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this has on individuals, starting with this sort

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of manufactured pariah effect? To define this

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effect, I would like to read a quote from inlightofscripture

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.com, which I did not expect to be reading from

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a Christian website for this episode, but I do

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like how succinctly they put this. I love that

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you're reading. I mean, listen, a good quote

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goes a long way. All right. Right. Yeah. I mean,

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we can give it a pass. Yeah, this is yes. They

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get they get one pass just for this does here.

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Quote, one of the ways cancel culture misses

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the mark is that it is more motivated by disassociation

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rather than restoring or rehabilitating the wrongdoer.

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Individuals are often canceled or blacklisted

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because they become a liability, an untouchable,

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a pariah of society, which no one is willing

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to touch out of concern for their own careers

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or social standing. Now, the rest of that website

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is essentially nonsense, but they nailed that

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one. Broken clocks and all that. Yeah. And you

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got, you know, as an academic, you have to cite

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your sources, even if it's from somewhere. Yeah.

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Yeah. Even if it's from inlightofscripture .org.

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Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my God. Hell of a name, by the

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way. Yeah. This pariah effect was evident in

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ProJared's case during his breakup with his then

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-wife Heidi. The lack of amicability in their

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separation became very public when Heidi responded

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negatively to his post about their divorce. Early

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in the controversies that would eventually surround

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both you and Jared, His friends took to Twitter

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to defend him, likely assuming that Jared would

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have the upper hand in this conflict. A good

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example of this is when Austin Hargrave, the

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content creator known as PeanutButterGamer, responded

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to Heidi with, For listeners who are unfamiliar

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with that phrase, it's an expression of disapproval

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or skepticism. As it became apparent that social

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media users were siding with Heidi, suddenly

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even Jared's own friends were pushing him away

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with normal boots where Austin and Jared were

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both content contributors, essentially cutting

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ties with Jared. This is a blatant example of

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how drastically the behaviors of those associated

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with you can change with the social tides, especially

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when they base their careers on their popularity.

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If the tides are against you, few in the social

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media professional space will be willing to swim

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with you against the current. Essentially, you

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find yourself margin controversy and others will

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see you as toxic and will disassociate. Did you

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want to say anything to that? Sorry, I was looking

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around because I heard like a fart noise and

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I was like, what the fuck was that? I was like,

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oh, my airbrush. I was airbrushing something

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earlier and I just sort of meh. It was just my

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airbrush. Had a little left in there. Yeah. Yeah.

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I think. Yeah. I don't think you'll hear it on

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the mic. No. So I was it's something that I've

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thought about a lot through all of this. And

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like, obviously, I've kind of been a hermit for

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the past, like, five, six years since it happened.

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So it was incredibly awful and traumatic. And

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a lot of people in the situation did not tell

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the truth. A lot of people in that situation,

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you know, got away with things and got. away

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from the social pariahness because of of not

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saying anything or not not admitting to them

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being a part of it if that makes sense but the

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such like the situation at this point doesn't

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matter it's the outcome of it and everyone in

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that situation myself included were not healthy

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people at that time at all and that's something

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that i think is is evident by what happened it's

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like you can see someone making this public like

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in the case of heidi making it public it's like

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that should be a peop a private matter of people

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talking to each other and you know in therapy

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and it's like and his friends had seen that his

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relationship wasn't healthy and i had seen that

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and people were worried about him but it's like

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And looking back on it now, it's been so long.

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I was trying to help someone who was a grown

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adult and who had the complete ability to take

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care of themselves in that situation. And because

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everyone in the situation was unhealthy, then

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it becomes, you know, it becomes maladaptive.

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It becomes bad. It becomes toxic. And I think

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the spillover onto the Internet was sort of like

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a, I'm trying to think of the word, like a symptom

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of that. So I think when it comes to a lot of

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these Internet things, there is a kernel of truth

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in all of these cancellations. There's a kernel

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of truth of the person messed up. The person

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deeply messed up in a lot of ways now can be

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in ways that is messing up in trusting someone

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too much, in giving yourself away too much to

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another person to help them. Any of that is a

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behavior that can possibly cause harm to yourself.

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And to others. Yeah. catalyst where outrage and

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pain become the thing that people want to see.

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And like, I constantly think about this and I

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read so many of the comments. I shouldn't have.

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I know everyone. I know I shouldn't have. But

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you know what? It's funny because like now I'm

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working on becoming a therapist and there's something,

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there's a legend called a sin eater. I'm kind

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of a sin eater. I like looking at things that

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might not be cheerful. It's like I and that's

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one of the things that like I know is going to

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be probably part of my therapy practice is like

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I am not afraid to hear bad things. I want to

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understand them and I want to, you know, analyze

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why something is the way it is. And the legend

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of the sin eater is someone who would go to houses

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and offer to eat dinner with someone to absorb

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their sins. So they would sit there, you know,

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they would put their sins on them and they would

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eat a meal and that would be them absorbing their

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sins and leaving. And I don't know, I just really

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love that. It's also really metal. It is, yeah.

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Right. So even though I did look at a lot of

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it when everyone's like, don't look at the comments,

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like, you know, I did a bit of sin eating. And

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I think that it's fascinating because so many

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of the people that left the cruelest comments.

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And the cruelest, like there was one artist,

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I think who actually was convicted of like child

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abuse. I don't know. We can like look it up.

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I'm not sure. It's a, I forget their name, but

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they did one picture. Oh my God. Why can't I

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think of their name? They did a picture that

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was just like so vile and so sexist and so gross.

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And it was, and everyone was sharing it. And

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yeah, they ended up just disappearing off the

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internet, this person. And everyone was sharing

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this person's work. Ha ha. Like, look at these

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ugly people. And it was like, did you even realize

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that the person who made this, it's so ugly because

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they were ugly inside. They were they were feeding

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off of this pain on the Internet because they

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were so in pain. And I think that's, you know,

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that's why we see a lot of this. I don't know.

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Does that make sense? Yeah. No, no, no. That's

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great. I'm really glad that you said that. And

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the sin eater thing is fascinating. I love that.

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Yeah, I thought it was great. I was like, I read

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it on the therapy Reddit comment. I was like,

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that's so badass. Yeah, that is. That's really

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dope. I you know, it's kind of it's kind of like

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what it's kind of like what I do with the podcast.

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Like if I if I find that the most disgusting

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rabbit hole I can go down, I'm like. just put

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it in my veins i need it i can't i can't get

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enough of reading you know i mean i hate it yes

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i'm also so fascinated at the same time i think

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researchers and anyone who's interested in sociology

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or even mental health like psychology you have

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to kind of be a sin eater right yeah yeah if

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you're going to if you're going to to learn without

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uh inhibition you kind of have to eat some of

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the sin that's just so there is to it yeah and

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i think that um that Approaching things with

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that kind of attitude also makes you more effective

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in preventing future problems, you know, socially

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by because you understand it better there. And

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I could go on because we did. We we read a study

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on in college on certain vile people and studying

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them. And everybody was like. And the class was

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very upset that these people weren't just being,

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you know, entrapped by the study. And it's like,

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well, well, it's like you do understand you're

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not going to learn anything if you do that. And

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plus, in the future, you'll never be able to

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do this study again because you made it a trap.

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Like, you know, but anyway, it's that is that

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I could go on forever on that. That'll be a whole

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that'll be a whole other episode, I'm sure, in

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the future. But it is true, though, that when

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public figures get ostracized or publicly shamed

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like this, it can be tempting to see it as some

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kind of justice. But in many cases, the moral

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or just nature of public shaming is on shaky

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ground. On his site, creatingcommonground .org.

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Professor of psychology Michael F. Moscolo writes

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that cancel culture is based on this idea that

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we say that what we say and do is some is a reflection

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of some essential nature of who we are. Accordingly,

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if I behave in a way that seems immoral or offensive,

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then I have a bad essential character that it

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assumes that. Behavior is just simply who you

00:14:33.980 --> 00:14:39.799
are. So, yeah, it's the age old. You can anyone

00:14:39.799 --> 00:14:43.360
can do a bad action. Anyone can do something

00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:47.500
bad, but you are not intrinsically bad. You are

00:14:47.500 --> 00:14:52.820
not bad. And that's a difficult thing for anyone

00:14:52.820 --> 00:14:56.080
looking in on any sort of situation where someone

00:14:56.080 --> 00:14:59.590
has done something bad. Because it's they'd have

00:14:59.590 --> 00:15:02.230
to accept that if they did something bad, that

00:15:02.230 --> 00:15:06.990
they were also still good. You can make a mistake

00:15:06.990 --> 00:15:09.909
and still have your worth not be questions. Yeah.

00:15:09.929 --> 00:15:11.850
Yeah. I mean, it's like if you've ever told a

00:15:11.850 --> 00:15:15.269
lie, then you're a liar. You know, you know,

00:15:15.269 --> 00:15:17.730
like that and that would make us all liars, you

00:15:17.730 --> 00:15:20.129
know, because I don't think I've ever met anybody

00:15:20.129 --> 00:15:23.049
who I do have a friend who's never said a swear

00:15:23.049 --> 00:15:25.409
word in her entire life. And I think that's fascinating.

00:15:27.059 --> 00:15:32.899
Yeah, if we're counting swears on myself. She

00:15:32.899 --> 00:15:36.299
says she has send in otherwise, but she's never

00:15:36.299 --> 00:15:40.120
said a swear. I just thought that was so fucking

00:15:40.120 --> 00:15:43.600
fascinating. Safe. Safe on swears. Yep. That

00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:46.059
one she's got down. Couple murders under the

00:15:46.059 --> 00:15:48.700
belt, but we got our swears taken care of. Right.

00:15:49.519 --> 00:15:52.960
Um, yeah, so like the, we kind of, uh, talked

00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:55.620
about it a little bit that where this, the thought

00:15:55.620 --> 00:15:59.279
process of, you know, you are what you've done.

00:15:59.519 --> 00:16:03.679
Um, it's flood, uh, because people are more complicated

00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:06.600
than to just have an essential moral character.

00:16:06.940 --> 00:16:10.500
Um, this quote from Muscolo, he says, uh, while

00:16:10.500 --> 00:16:13.440
we all should strive to act with reference to

00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:16.179
moral values, none of us has an essential moral

00:16:16.179 --> 00:16:19.379
character. We never live up to the ideals we

00:16:19.379 --> 00:16:22.320
set for ourselves. We make mistakes. We are always

00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:29.100
evolving. And I think that's so true and well

00:16:29.100 --> 00:16:32.559
put. And I think you said something about when

00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:36.500
we were discussing this episode and how to go

00:16:36.500 --> 00:16:40.120
forward with it, you were talking about how people

00:16:40.120 --> 00:16:43.039
see public figures as characters rather than

00:16:43.039 --> 00:16:44.899
human. You know, they see them in like a two

00:16:44.899 --> 00:16:47.580
-dimensional way. Did you want to talk about

00:16:47.580 --> 00:16:50.120
that a little bit or? Yeah, I mean, that's the

00:16:50.120 --> 00:16:52.740
whole like the parasocial relationship thing.

00:16:53.059 --> 00:16:57.039
And it's like it's really like funny and sad

00:16:57.039 --> 00:17:00.419
in my case, because there are people that do

00:17:00.419 --> 00:17:02.679
put on a character. There are people that are

00:17:02.679 --> 00:17:06.420
pretending. But like I'm way too autistic for

00:17:06.420 --> 00:17:10.180
that. Like I like and I over explain myself.

00:17:10.299 --> 00:17:13.480
And like, again, I was in such crisis at the

00:17:13.480 --> 00:17:17.200
time that this happened that like. I was saying

00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:20.720
things that were just like so like intimate and

00:17:20.720 --> 00:17:22.700
should have been things I was telling my therapist

00:17:22.700 --> 00:17:27.720
to the Internet. Like, it's interesting to me

00:17:27.720 --> 00:17:30.240
because I think one of the things as, you know,

00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:33.119
neurodivergent person is that you over explain

00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:36.799
things. And to the Internet, that's a sign of

00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:40.890
lying. Right. Yeah. And so it's like and I didn't

00:17:40.890 --> 00:17:42.730
even understand that until all this happened.

00:17:42.869 --> 00:17:44.849
And like they're like, you pretended to be nice.

00:17:44.930 --> 00:17:48.549
You pretended to be kind. You pretended to love

00:17:48.549 --> 00:17:53.250
birds. I'm like, what? Like what? I know I have

00:17:53.250 --> 00:17:55.769
people come in there and be like, you don't deserve

00:17:55.769 --> 00:17:57.609
to have your birds like you need to have your

00:17:57.609 --> 00:18:00.009
birds taken away from you. And I was like, that

00:18:00.009 --> 00:18:02.890
is the most bizarre thing. What part? I mean,

00:18:02.890 --> 00:18:05.569
other than trust me, I have some I used to have

00:18:05.569 --> 00:18:08.990
them all saved, but I. Was like, I can't save

00:18:08.990 --> 00:18:11.690
these. This is all gone. All this is gone. So

00:18:11.690 --> 00:18:13.609
I wouldn't have to look at these things anymore

00:18:13.609 --> 00:18:16.450
because they were just so mean. And like the

00:18:16.450 --> 00:18:19.089
like what my birds have to do with it. What is

00:18:19.089 --> 00:18:22.269
my ability to be a good bird? Like, OK, let's

00:18:22.269 --> 00:18:25.069
say like, yes, I cheated. I was a I was a who

00:18:25.069 --> 00:18:29.029
are I was a home wrecker. Let's say like I wrecked

00:18:29.029 --> 00:18:32.609
a home. And what what part of that means that

00:18:32.609 --> 00:18:36.400
like I'm not a valuable human being or. deserve

00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:40.720
to have birds or deserve to continue my career

00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:46.000
like that's it's it's yeah I mean and we live

00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:48.339
in a society right now where the president is

00:18:48.339 --> 00:18:53.740
a literal felon and sex offender and here it

00:18:53.740 --> 00:18:57.579
was me in 2019 just trying to live my life and

00:18:57.579 --> 00:19:00.210
again like I don't want and we talked about this

00:19:00.210 --> 00:19:01.930
too, I don't want to go into like all the stuff

00:19:01.930 --> 00:19:03.990
that happened. I could just be like, this didn't

00:19:03.990 --> 00:19:07.009
happen. That actually doesn't matter. What matters

00:19:07.009 --> 00:19:11.509
is that people do not deserve to be treated like

00:19:11.509 --> 00:19:13.890
this when it is something, especially women,

00:19:14.029 --> 00:19:17.930
especially women, when it is something that involves

00:19:17.930 --> 00:19:21.869
a private matter and the fact that the men in

00:19:21.869 --> 00:19:24.789
this situation are fine. Yeah. They're fine.

00:19:25.109 --> 00:19:28.450
And I lost everything. And it's like, that's,

00:19:28.920 --> 00:19:32.599
What like what part of that what part of that

00:19:32.599 --> 00:19:36.099
is OK? I mean, now right now we live in a world

00:19:36.099 --> 00:19:38.980
where like sexism and all that is so rampant

00:19:38.980 --> 00:19:46.480
and it's like, I don't know. Yeah, it's and that

00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:51.019
is one thing that that is very frustrating about

00:19:51.019 --> 00:19:54.849
how. The Jezebel, the who -er. Yeah, but then

00:19:54.849 --> 00:19:57.930
every dude gets to move forward, you know, and

00:19:57.930 --> 00:20:02.269
that is infuriating. And do the exact same things.

00:20:02.329 --> 00:20:04.950
It's like, oh, you learn nothing. All right,

00:20:04.970 --> 00:20:09.730
Godspeed, I guess. Yeah, and one thing you mentioned

00:20:09.730 --> 00:20:13.210
was that how you would over -explain things and

00:20:13.210 --> 00:20:15.670
then people would interpret that as being a lie.

00:20:15.910 --> 00:20:20.079
And I think that, you know... So as a neurodivergent

00:20:20.079 --> 00:20:22.119
person, you're not going to explain things exactly

00:20:22.119 --> 00:20:25.339
the same way another person would. No, I never

00:20:25.339 --> 00:20:28.259
have, ever. It's never been something I can do

00:20:28.259 --> 00:20:31.839
right, especially in emotionally charged situations,

00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:36.640
because I have a fawn response. I panic. And

00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:41.700
I've seen this firsthand with people I know.

00:20:42.569 --> 00:20:44.769
after all this happened and I watched it happen

00:20:44.769 --> 00:20:46.950
in a different situation I was like oh my god

00:20:46.950 --> 00:20:51.009
this is exactly how I have behaved in situations

00:20:51.009 --> 00:20:53.809
like this where I'm cornered and panicked and

00:20:53.809 --> 00:20:57.970
having this like more or less like meltdown of

00:20:57.970 --> 00:21:00.910
misunderstanding and panic and feeling less than

00:21:00.910 --> 00:21:04.650
and it's it's incredibly hard to push through

00:21:04.650 --> 00:21:07.670
unless you have the tools and like then I did

00:21:07.670 --> 00:21:10.740
not have the tools Yeah. Yeah. And and that's

00:21:10.740 --> 00:21:15.599
that I think that anybody caught up in a situation

00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:19.319
like that who wasn't planning for it would not,

00:21:19.319 --> 00:21:21.579
you know, would not would be ill prepared for

00:21:21.579 --> 00:21:25.059
something like that, you know. And the idea,

00:21:25.359 --> 00:21:28.079
though, that people were interpreting the over

00:21:28.079 --> 00:21:33.099
explaining as you lying. That's another that's

00:21:33.099 --> 00:21:36.849
another aspect of people treating online. figures

00:21:36.849 --> 00:21:39.029
as these two -dimensional characters because

00:21:39.029 --> 00:21:41.809
they try to take these blanket standards and

00:21:41.809 --> 00:21:44.809
apply it to everyone you know they try to think

00:21:44.809 --> 00:21:48.950
like well that person is not saying things the

00:21:48.950 --> 00:21:52.710
way I would if I were being candid so they must

00:21:52.710 --> 00:21:56.250
be lying and right and I think that that's you

00:21:56.250 --> 00:21:58.869
know it's like with the the Charlie Kirk assassin

00:21:58.869 --> 00:22:01.650
people are you know I've got my own thoughts

00:22:01.650 --> 00:22:03.710
about the text messages but one of the things

00:22:03.710 --> 00:22:06.650
that frustrates me is when people say, oh, this

00:22:06.650 --> 00:22:09.190
is not how a 22 -year -old talks. It's like,

00:22:09.269 --> 00:22:11.730
okay, first off, not all 22 -year -olds are the

00:22:11.730 --> 00:22:13.990
same. And secondly, most 22 -year -olds don't

00:22:13.990 --> 00:22:17.190
go and shoot someone. So this is a different

00:22:17.190 --> 00:22:20.089
individual. He assassinated somebody. I think

00:22:20.089 --> 00:22:25.890
trying to say he talks different, you're grasping

00:22:25.890 --> 00:22:29.420
at straws there. I do have my own thoughts about

00:22:29.420 --> 00:22:31.619
those. Oh, that's a whole rabbit hole. Well,

00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:33.819
it's not even getting started on that. Yum, yum,

00:22:34.039 --> 00:22:35.980
sit eating. Yum, yum, yum. It's kind of that

00:22:35.980 --> 00:22:39.359
same, you know, the horse blinders, you know,

00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:41.579
kind of thing where it's like you need to kind

00:22:41.579 --> 00:22:43.180
of broaden your perspective a little bit and

00:22:43.180 --> 00:22:45.240
understand that there are going to be people

00:22:45.240 --> 00:22:47.299
who are different and will respond differently

00:22:47.299 --> 00:22:50.900
to situations than you will, you know. Yes. No,

00:22:50.980 --> 00:22:53.970
absolutely. And it might. Might not be the healthiest

00:22:53.970 --> 00:22:55.769
way. It might not be they might not be in a good

00:22:55.769 --> 00:22:58.789
place. And that's just that is a human thing

00:22:58.789 --> 00:23:01.750
to be in. It is human to be not in a good place.

00:23:01.829 --> 00:23:04.490
Yes. It happens to many of us. It's just that

00:23:04.490 --> 00:23:07.630
many of us didn't never had a large Internet

00:23:07.630 --> 00:23:11.609
following. Bless them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And,

00:23:11.710 --> 00:23:17.269
you know, the when it comes to this public shaming.

00:23:18.589 --> 00:23:20.910
There are studies in psychoneurology that have

00:23:20.910 --> 00:23:22.829
suggested that there's an evolutionary reason

00:23:22.829 --> 00:23:27.109
for our tendency toward public shaming. And they've

00:23:27.109 --> 00:23:29.730
even shown brain activity that occurs when shame

00:23:29.730 --> 00:23:32.450
and punishment are doled out. There's something

00:23:32.450 --> 00:23:35.829
kind of satisfying or even elating about getting

00:23:35.829 --> 00:23:39.549
to publicly shame someone for a perceived wrongdoing.

00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:42.579
I believe, however, that intellectually most

00:23:42.579 --> 00:23:45.099
people understand that human beings are complicated

00:23:45.099 --> 00:23:47.819
and make mistakes. People move on from those

00:23:47.819 --> 00:23:49.980
mistakes and hopefully take measures not to repeat

00:23:49.980 --> 00:23:55.460
them. That's not what gets shared, though. Because

00:23:55.460 --> 00:24:00.420
if you're commenting on something like, this

00:24:00.420 --> 00:24:04.549
person kicked a puppy. Terrible example because

00:24:04.549 --> 00:24:06.690
that's, you know. No, unforgivable. That one's

00:24:06.690 --> 00:24:09.369
unforgivable. That's a different example. Cancel

00:24:09.369 --> 00:24:11.549
them forever. That one's actually really bad.

00:24:11.609 --> 00:24:16.609
I actually have an example here. So a listener

00:24:16.609 --> 00:24:18.450
can imagine that they've committed an act of

00:24:18.450 --> 00:24:21.130
infidelity and it's with an acquaintance of mine

00:24:21.130 --> 00:24:24.500
that I think is a nice person. At first, I can

00:24:24.500 --> 00:24:26.680
bring it to your attention that I'm unhappy with

00:24:26.680 --> 00:24:28.880
you, and I may do this in a confrontational way.

00:24:29.240 --> 00:24:31.420
Now, I have to imagine that at first, while the

00:24:31.420 --> 00:24:34.140
shame is still fresh, you accept that I and other

00:24:34.140 --> 00:24:36.559
people like me will likely consider your transgression

00:24:36.559 --> 00:24:39.160
to be a reflection of your character. So you

00:24:39.160 --> 00:24:41.759
accept the fact that because you committed an

00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:43.839
act that most people would consider to be immoral,

00:24:43.940 --> 00:24:47.119
you would without a doubt have to endure some

00:24:47.119 --> 00:24:50.930
humiliation. Now, imagine after this experience

00:24:50.930 --> 00:24:52.769
you never commit the act again because you've

00:24:52.769 --> 00:24:54.650
learned a hell of a lesson, however I continue

00:24:54.650 --> 00:24:57.130
to bring up your wrongdoing even after you've

00:24:57.130 --> 00:24:59.390
expressed remorse for what you've done, and six

00:24:59.390 --> 00:25:01.869
years later I continue to bring it up unprovoked

00:25:01.869 --> 00:25:03.890
and I lash out at you randomly because of the

00:25:03.890 --> 00:25:05.869
immoral act you committed more than half a decade

00:25:05.869 --> 00:25:08.450
ago that had nothing to do with me. You would,

00:25:08.549 --> 00:25:11.430
without a doubt, consider me to be rather unhinged.

00:25:12.269 --> 00:25:15.240
Why is it... That we understand how unreasonable

00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:17.859
that is when it comes to the people we know,

00:25:18.019 --> 00:25:23.500
but we cannot extend that understanding to public

00:25:23.500 --> 00:25:28.019
figures. Yeah. I mean, I think it's probably

00:25:28.019 --> 00:25:31.259
a power dynamic. It's a privilege dynamic. And

00:25:31.259 --> 00:25:36.400
new media didn't really show people that there

00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:39.720
was not a privilege or a power dynamic with a

00:25:39.720 --> 00:25:42.529
neurodivergent woman on the Internet. A man,

00:25:42.670 --> 00:25:45.430
yes. A white man, yes. But the power dynamic

00:25:45.430 --> 00:25:48.809
was not, in my case, was not there. But, you

00:25:48.809 --> 00:25:51.349
know, in a lot of other people's cases, it is.

00:25:51.609 --> 00:25:54.569
And that's why nothing happens to them. And I

00:25:54.569 --> 00:25:57.750
think, like, people still, like, that example

00:25:57.750 --> 00:26:00.690
is real. People still to this day comment. That's

00:26:00.690 --> 00:26:03.529
why, like, I can't do YouTube. I just, I don't

00:26:03.529 --> 00:26:05.589
want to look at it because I still get comments

00:26:05.589 --> 00:26:08.170
saying terrible things to me to this day in the

00:26:08.170 --> 00:26:11.940
year of our Lord, 2025. Right. And I'm like,

00:26:12.019 --> 00:26:15.400
what are you? I do not spend my free time going

00:26:15.400 --> 00:26:18.619
into random people. I have never met YouTube

00:26:18.619 --> 00:26:21.799
comments telling them that they're glad that

00:26:21.799 --> 00:26:25.099
I'm failing as a human being or they're glad

00:26:25.099 --> 00:26:28.339
that like no one watches my videos or they're

00:26:28.339 --> 00:26:31.660
glad. Like I had one person the other day and

00:26:31.660 --> 00:26:34.240
this is this is for real. Like this is a real

00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:37.799
comment. Say like how I think it was something

00:26:37.799 --> 00:26:41.019
like. She looks so, and I think I'm just paraphrasing

00:26:41.019 --> 00:26:43.940
here. She looks so unhinged. This is what happens

00:26:43.940 --> 00:26:47.339
when you give in to sin and debauchery. This

00:26:47.339 --> 00:26:50.500
was a real comment. This was a real comment I

00:26:50.500 --> 00:26:54.220
got less than like three weeks ago. In the year

00:26:54.220 --> 00:26:57.460
of our Lord 2025. And I'm like, sin and debauchery?

00:26:57.660 --> 00:26:59.759
I picture them like throwing holy water at their

00:26:59.759 --> 00:27:03.500
computer screens. But it's like, it's unreal.

00:27:03.819 --> 00:27:09.829
And I'm like, I, and I, like. I just like hang

00:27:09.829 --> 00:27:11.789
out with my chickens and I'm going to school

00:27:11.789 --> 00:27:15.049
and I work at a coffee shop like I'm like I don't

00:27:15.049 --> 00:27:18.250
know what you want like I do not have an internet

00:27:18.250 --> 00:27:20.450
presence I make art and you know what that's

00:27:20.450 --> 00:27:23.269
great I like my art maybe I'll do mental health

00:27:23.269 --> 00:27:26.529
stuff one day but like It's so it's also this

00:27:26.529 --> 00:27:28.890
is another thing is it's so strange how much

00:27:28.890 --> 00:27:31.809
weight people put into this following into this

00:27:31.809 --> 00:27:35.650
this arbitrary unreal like Internet fame where

00:27:35.650 --> 00:27:38.750
I'm like no one outside of the gaming sphere

00:27:38.750 --> 00:27:41.910
knew who I was. No. And I and I didn't expect

00:27:41.910 --> 00:27:45.609
them to like I never cared about that. Like it's

00:27:45.609 --> 00:27:48.950
like this. The Internet has created this bizarre

00:27:48.950 --> 00:27:53.670
like fame bubble where. People assume that because

00:27:53.670 --> 00:27:55.769
you have a big following, you are famous. And

00:27:55.769 --> 00:27:58.869
that is absolutely not true. You just have a

00:27:58.869 --> 00:28:00.670
bunch of people on the Internet that follow you.

00:28:01.130 --> 00:28:04.309
Like Johnny Depp is famous. These people have

00:28:04.309 --> 00:28:08.009
money and security and all of this stuff. And

00:28:08.009 --> 00:28:12.769
like I like when I was canceled, I was like terrified.

00:28:13.230 --> 00:28:15.769
I had people sending things to my P .O. box.

00:28:15.990 --> 00:28:18.349
I had people, you know, yelling at me on the

00:28:18.349 --> 00:28:21.960
street because like. I had more exposure during

00:28:21.960 --> 00:28:25.160
that than I ever did in my whole career. Yeah.

00:28:25.180 --> 00:28:27.900
Yeah. And now, you know, and now I'm just there.

00:28:28.839 --> 00:28:31.220
It's frustrating. It's frustrating that this

00:28:31.220 --> 00:28:37.980
this anger is like what gets people riled up

00:28:37.980 --> 00:28:41.359
or drawn toward content or drawn toward something

00:28:41.359 --> 00:28:45.019
or anything, you know, and people. Like, coming

00:28:45.019 --> 00:28:46.460
out and be like, I don't know who either of these

00:28:46.460 --> 00:28:48.220
two people are, but fuck them. You know, it's

00:28:48.220 --> 00:28:51.779
like, what in the hell? Like, why? Where did

00:28:51.779 --> 00:28:55.799
you even come from? Yeah. So this, like, never

00:28:55.799 --> 00:28:58.500
-ending cycle of vitriol following a transgression,

00:28:58.680 --> 00:29:01.109
it doesn't... teach anybody any lessons because

00:29:01.109 --> 00:29:03.569
there's no path to redemption. There's no reason

00:29:03.569 --> 00:29:07.130
to improve. And so because of behaving like this,

00:29:07.190 --> 00:29:09.309
we create an environment where the only way for

00:29:09.309 --> 00:29:12.150
a transgressor to move forward is to shed any

00:29:12.150 --> 00:29:14.950
shame and use the absence of a path to redemption

00:29:14.950 --> 00:29:17.430
as an excuse to act in abhorrent ways in the

00:29:17.430 --> 00:29:20.329
future. That's literally it. Yeah. If there's

00:29:20.329 --> 00:29:22.170
no path to forgiveness, then why change at all?

00:29:22.589 --> 00:29:25.990
And that's what happens. That's exactly what

00:29:25.990 --> 00:29:29.029
happens. That's why we have... That's why we

00:29:29.029 --> 00:29:31.049
have the political atmosphere we do right now.

00:29:31.109 --> 00:29:33.289
That's why we have the president posting memes

00:29:33.289 --> 00:29:37.309
of jets shitting on people. And that's why all

00:29:37.309 --> 00:29:40.670
of almost I mean, I don't research that much

00:29:40.670 --> 00:29:43.569
into like where people are now. But in my case,

00:29:43.650 --> 00:29:47.690
it's like, you know, there it just continues

00:29:47.690 --> 00:29:51.029
status quo for the men. Like it doesn't stop,

00:29:51.269 --> 00:29:56.410
you know, and I I feel like. I feel terrible

00:29:56.410 --> 00:29:58.809
about what happened to Heidi because she didn't

00:29:58.809 --> 00:30:01.349
deserve any of that either. I know that like

00:30:01.349 --> 00:30:04.349
she said a lot of like really unkind things.

00:30:04.529 --> 00:30:08.769
And to be real, like she was just suffering the

00:30:08.769 --> 00:30:11.549
same reason like I was suffering. It was a whole

00:30:11.549 --> 00:30:14.700
group of people suffering. And no one no one

00:30:14.700 --> 00:30:17.279
deserved to have the Internet make it worse.

00:30:17.480 --> 00:30:20.579
Yeah. Yeah. Like everyone needed to go and get

00:30:20.579 --> 00:30:23.519
help separately and get therapy and take care

00:30:23.519 --> 00:30:26.299
of themselves and not make it worse through the

00:30:26.299 --> 00:30:30.900
Internet. And like. Like it was terrible that

00:30:30.900 --> 00:30:34.839
what happened, but like I don't I don't wish

00:30:34.839 --> 00:30:39.140
ill on anyone. I really don't. I really don't.

00:30:39.140 --> 00:30:41.799
Like I wish that they would get better and like,

00:30:41.859 --> 00:30:44.829
oh, you know. help get therapy and take care

00:30:44.829 --> 00:30:47.730
of themselves and maybe consider their actions

00:30:47.730 --> 00:30:51.069
in the future but i don't i don't know if that's

00:30:51.069 --> 00:30:52.990
going to happen and i'm not responsible for it

00:30:52.990 --> 00:30:56.089
and that's because i've had growth yeah there

00:30:56.089 --> 00:30:58.210
you go i just gave a thumbs up i don't know if

00:30:58.210 --> 00:31:01.410
you saw that yeah if if we if i do post video

00:31:01.410 --> 00:31:04.029
the video watchers will be able to see that but

00:31:04.029 --> 00:31:08.289
i yeah i decided to yeah i put a thumbs up but

00:31:08.289 --> 00:31:10.940
like I think but that's the part of being human.

00:31:11.000 --> 00:31:13.240
You make mistakes and you have growth, you know.

00:31:13.759 --> 00:31:16.500
And I'm like so thankful that I had the career

00:31:16.500 --> 00:31:19.460
that I did. I loved it. I loved playing D &D

00:31:19.460 --> 00:31:21.400
more than anything because I'd played it since

00:31:21.400 --> 00:31:24.539
high school. And is does it still hurt my heart

00:31:24.539 --> 00:31:28.160
that I can't and on stage or do it anymore? Absolutely.

00:31:28.180 --> 00:31:31.619
It does. But at the same time, like. that doesn't

00:31:31.619 --> 00:31:34.019
take away my value as a human being. Like at

00:31:34.019 --> 00:31:35.920
the end of the day, Dungeons and Dragons is just

00:31:35.920 --> 00:31:40.420
capitalism again. So like surround yourself with

00:31:40.420 --> 00:31:44.119
people that care about you genuinely and make

00:31:44.119 --> 00:31:48.619
you feel safe and give you a warm home and support

00:31:48.619 --> 00:31:52.240
you and have friends who are, you know, who,

00:31:52.339 --> 00:31:54.180
if you make a mistake, they'll, they're going

00:31:54.180 --> 00:31:56.400
to be there for you because that's another, like

00:31:56.400 --> 00:31:59.220
when this all happened, my friend from high school

00:31:59.220 --> 00:32:03.470
who, and I, who I was isolated from because the

00:32:03.470 --> 00:32:06.549
group of people in Los Angeles that I was involved

00:32:06.549 --> 00:32:09.390
with had isolated me from my friends from high

00:32:09.390 --> 00:32:11.630
school. They had told me that they were abusing

00:32:11.630 --> 00:32:13.630
me and had kept me away from them, which, by

00:32:13.630 --> 00:32:19.069
the way, is cult behavior. And my friend, when

00:32:19.069 --> 00:32:22.650
that happened, came and made sure I was OK and

00:32:22.650 --> 00:32:24.849
got me and took me to the hospital. And this

00:32:24.849 --> 00:32:27.869
was my friend from high school. who lives up

00:32:27.869 --> 00:32:30.750
here in Seattle. And so like when something like

00:32:30.750 --> 00:32:33.289
that happens, you really find out who your friends

00:32:33.289 --> 00:32:36.769
are and who is there to support you as a human

00:32:36.769 --> 00:32:40.250
with flaws and with all the messy parts that

00:32:40.250 --> 00:32:44.970
come with being human. Yeah. And really quick,

00:32:45.009 --> 00:32:46.950
I do not believe Taylor Swift has experienced

00:32:46.950 --> 00:32:50.349
that. I do not. Her dumb song is dumb. I'm like,

00:32:50.369 --> 00:32:52.210
you're a billionaire. Stop it. I just wanted

00:32:52.210 --> 00:32:55.309
to say, I just, that's, I hate. I think public

00:32:55.309 --> 00:32:57.829
shaming is a lot more accurate than cancel culture,

00:32:57.950 --> 00:33:00.730
because like someone said, she's like, girl boss.

00:33:00.809 --> 00:33:05.190
I'm like, stop. I will run into traffic. Sorry,

00:33:05.690 --> 00:33:07.589
I did go on a rant about that. I'm sorry if there's

00:33:07.589 --> 00:33:10.369
any Swifties in this. I'm so sorry. But like,

00:33:10.410 --> 00:33:15.140
I mean, I'm sure that being famous. is traumatic

00:33:15.140 --> 00:33:17.380
i believe that i'm sure it is i mean i know i

00:33:17.380 --> 00:33:21.079
had a scoach a tiny bit of fame and it was it

00:33:21.079 --> 00:33:24.200
was awful but like i truly like i believe that

00:33:24.200 --> 00:33:26.920
but i'm also like girl like you can afford really

00:33:26.920 --> 00:33:29.740
good therapy i think like i didn't have any money

00:33:29.740 --> 00:33:32.660
and i'm like you can i'm like you stop flying

00:33:32.660 --> 00:33:38.059
your jet anyway yeah yeah yeah ground that jet

00:33:38.059 --> 00:33:42.740
yeah then we can talk Get on the bus. Yes. Yes.

00:33:42.779 --> 00:33:46.519
Right. Take public transportation. Yeah. Sorry.

00:33:46.740 --> 00:33:50.200
No, I love it, though. That's great. That song

00:33:50.200 --> 00:33:52.839
made me so mad. I was like, what is this? Like,

00:33:52.839 --> 00:33:55.539
this is and like, then I think back to again,

00:33:55.720 --> 00:33:57.819
when I when this all happened to me, that was

00:33:57.819 --> 00:34:00.079
kind of my response was like, ha ha. This is

00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:02.380
like, oh, let's try and be funny and make everyone

00:34:02.380 --> 00:34:05.240
was so mad. I made a T -shirt that said cancel

00:34:05.240 --> 00:34:06.880
and everyone was like, you're taking our money.

00:34:06.940 --> 00:34:08.539
I was like, I did not. I made like five hundred

00:34:08.539 --> 00:34:11.889
dollars like. Thank you. Like, I think I bought

00:34:11.889 --> 00:34:14.010
pigeon food with it. I don't know. Should I have

00:34:14.010 --> 00:34:16.409
done that? Absolutely not. Because it hurt people

00:34:16.409 --> 00:34:19.469
realizing that there are actual people who have

00:34:19.469 --> 00:34:22.869
who have are under this umbrella of cancellations

00:34:22.869 --> 00:34:26.789
who genuinely hurt people in real ways. And I

00:34:26.789 --> 00:34:29.190
think, again, that's the nuance is that, you

00:34:29.190 --> 00:34:30.769
know, at the time, I just didn't understand.

00:34:30.829 --> 00:34:33.829
And I thought, oh, I'll just make some art about

00:34:33.829 --> 00:34:38.289
it. And, you know, art sometimes is not not.

00:34:38.780 --> 00:34:44.000
The best choice. Yeah. Yeah. And and the talking

00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:47.500
about like the people who who do hurt people,

00:34:47.599 --> 00:34:53.000
you know, punishing people permanently, essentially,

00:34:53.199 --> 00:34:59.760
like you've. Basically, the only ones who end

00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:02.539
up getting hurt are the ones who have any kind

00:35:02.539 --> 00:35:05.219
of shame or any kind of empathy. And by eliminating

00:35:05.219 --> 00:35:07.460
those people from their social influence permanently.

00:35:08.159 --> 00:35:11.780
We're clearing a playing field for anyone. We're

00:35:11.780 --> 00:35:14.000
clearing the playing field of anyone with true

00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:17.239
morals so that anybody without those morals,

00:35:17.400 --> 00:35:21.000
so that they can thrive, you know. Because suddenly

00:35:21.000 --> 00:35:23.300
the playing field is clear for all the monsters,

00:35:23.460 --> 00:35:25.980
you know. And if you've asked yourself recently

00:35:25.980 --> 00:35:28.400
how we ended up with such a toxic culture when

00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:30.519
it comes to online creators, it's partially our

00:35:30.519 --> 00:35:33.900
own fault. A thousand percent. It is a thousand

00:35:33.900 --> 00:35:37.320
percent our fault. Yeah. And it's not for holding

00:35:37.320 --> 00:35:40.500
people to account, but rather than it's more

00:35:40.500 --> 00:35:43.760
because of destroying those who actually have

00:35:43.760 --> 00:35:46.780
any sense of morals or humility or shame. We've

00:35:46.780 --> 00:35:49.480
created an environment that is perfect for the

00:35:49.480 --> 00:35:52.400
cruel and the shameless. And the algorithm loves

00:35:52.400 --> 00:35:54.940
it. That's what it wants. Yeah. That's what gets

00:35:54.940 --> 00:35:57.360
shared. And it's like anyone with humility or

00:35:57.360 --> 00:36:01.280
any kind of empathy. is going to see comments

00:36:01.280 --> 00:36:04.820
that are terrible anyone we all see anyone who

00:36:04.820 --> 00:36:06.360
exists on the internet is going to see terrible

00:36:06.360 --> 00:36:09.280
comments and those are going to chase kind people

00:36:09.280 --> 00:36:12.460
away because you're putting these comments out

00:36:12.460 --> 00:36:14.119
like people are putting these comments out there

00:36:14.119 --> 00:36:16.940
with no remorse and then there's it's it's real

00:36:16.940 --> 00:36:19.840
that trauma is real what trauma happens on the

00:36:19.840 --> 00:36:24.579
internet is is real yeah yeah and and Yeah, it

00:36:24.579 --> 00:36:28.139
can feel good to ostracize people we see as transgressors,

00:36:28.139 --> 00:36:30.340
but like I said, it only works on people who

00:36:30.340 --> 00:36:33.840
have a conscience. And it can only create a good

00:36:33.840 --> 00:36:35.599
environment if we're willing to forgive and move

00:36:35.599 --> 00:36:39.159
forward. And that's one thing about forgiveness

00:36:39.159 --> 00:36:41.420
is that people need to remember it's not a get

00:36:41.420 --> 00:36:43.059
-out -of -jail -free card. It's simply accepting

00:36:43.059 --> 00:36:47.559
the fact that the past can't change. In the past,

00:36:47.559 --> 00:36:49.659
we shamed people who fucked up with the ostensible

00:36:49.659 --> 00:36:52.420
purpose of creating a better environment. But

00:36:52.420 --> 00:36:54.360
by taking things too far, we've had the opposite

00:36:54.360 --> 00:36:56.739
effect. The shameless now have control of the

00:36:56.739 --> 00:36:58.960
narrative and are influencing young people and

00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:01.260
other creators to act in reprehensible ways and

00:37:01.260 --> 00:37:04.139
to be proud of it. I mean, we didn't create,

00:37:04.280 --> 00:37:06.820
you know, like we didn't create monsters like

00:37:06.820 --> 00:37:09.760
Andrew Tate, but we did. And we also didn't create

00:37:09.760 --> 00:37:11.920
perverts who use their influence to fuck their

00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:14.179
fans and things like that. But our actions did

00:37:14.179 --> 00:37:16.179
give rise to a movement in our culture where

00:37:16.179 --> 00:37:19.980
people like this can thrive as creators. Because

00:37:19.980 --> 00:37:23.380
even if they're shamed, even if they're shamed,

00:37:23.420 --> 00:37:26.900
if they have no humility, they will go right

00:37:26.900 --> 00:37:29.719
back to behaving that way. Yeah, right. Because

00:37:29.719 --> 00:37:33.599
it doesn't affect them. Yeah. And someone who

00:37:33.599 --> 00:37:37.519
realizes that they've messed up can have growth.

00:37:37.639 --> 00:37:40.199
But the continued shaming, continued harassment

00:37:40.199 --> 00:37:43.260
is enough for anyone will leave. No one wants

00:37:43.260 --> 00:37:45.940
to stay somewhere where people are treating them

00:37:45.940 --> 00:37:49.280
less than human. Yeah. Yeah. And and a lot of

00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:52.960
times it incentivizes somebody to become shameless.

00:37:53.500 --> 00:37:55.719
Unfortunately, like you can have somebody who

00:37:55.719 --> 00:37:58.699
may have had that ability to self -reflect, may

00:37:58.699 --> 00:38:01.500
have had that ability, but then realized that

00:38:01.500 --> 00:38:06.159
there is no path forward by being self -critical.

00:38:06.440 --> 00:38:10.280
Instead, they had just shed any sense of shame

00:38:10.280 --> 00:38:13.440
or morals and, you know, become another monster

00:38:13.440 --> 00:38:17.300
on the Internet. No, absolutely. Absolutely.

00:38:17.539 --> 00:38:22.440
And it's, yeah. I think in order to fight against

00:38:22.440 --> 00:38:24.420
this kind of thing, we need to value influencers

00:38:24.420 --> 00:38:28.920
who share, who show a desire to do good, even

00:38:28.920 --> 00:38:32.119
when we learn of their flaws. To imagine that

00:38:32.119 --> 00:38:34.820
a creator you like has never made a mistake is

00:38:34.820 --> 00:38:37.920
unrealistic. But when we hold people to account,

00:38:38.199 --> 00:38:42.099
it should be to find a capacity in them to learn

00:38:42.099 --> 00:38:45.639
from their mistakes. rather than to not have

00:38:45.639 --> 00:38:52.380
ever made any. Basically, so shame ultimately,

00:38:52.539 --> 00:38:55.059
I'm getting back to the script now because I'm

00:38:55.059 --> 00:38:56.980
kind of stumbling over myself a little bit here.

00:38:57.099 --> 00:38:58.980
No, you're doing great, yeah. Yeah, no, shame

00:38:58.980 --> 00:39:01.480
ultimately reflects an ability to be critical

00:39:01.480 --> 00:39:04.340
of oneself. Accordingly, it is not difficult

00:39:04.340 --> 00:39:06.980
to imagine that those who are affected by public

00:39:06.980 --> 00:39:10.079
shaming are those with the capacity of self -criticality.

00:39:10.300 --> 00:39:12.920
They are the ones who are capable of growth and

00:39:12.920 --> 00:39:15.860
change. However, cancel culture does not often

00:39:15.860 --> 00:39:18.260
encourage or even allow for the self -reflection

00:39:18.260 --> 00:39:21.539
that leads to personal change. Furthermore, this

00:39:21.539 --> 00:39:24.019
nature of cancel culture stems from an idea that

00:39:24.019 --> 00:39:26.800
right and wrong are binary, with almost no room

00:39:26.800 --> 00:39:29.800
for nuance. Binary standards do not apply in

00:39:29.800 --> 00:39:31.679
real life, especially when it comes to personal

00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:34.380
relationships. People are complicated, and therefore

00:39:34.380 --> 00:39:37.480
relationships are very complicated and very diverse.

00:39:41.360 --> 00:39:43.219
I thought you'd chime in there, but, you know.

00:39:43.239 --> 00:39:47.679
Oh, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, that's it's yeah,

00:39:47.800 --> 00:39:49.480
it's like what I said before. And it's like.

00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:54.880
The Internet is not a place for for any sort

00:39:54.880 --> 00:39:59.119
of. Any sort of nuanced relationship discussion.

00:39:59.900 --> 00:40:02.260
It is just not a place for that. And I think

00:40:02.260 --> 00:40:06.500
in a lot of cases, it's like. I do feel like

00:40:06.500 --> 00:40:11.070
that as an elder millennial, like. I grew up

00:40:11.070 --> 00:40:13.969
sharing on the Internet my personal life, like

00:40:13.969 --> 00:40:17.190
Facebook, you know, MySpace, like Zanga, like

00:40:17.190 --> 00:40:20.170
sharing personal life was normal for us because

00:40:20.170 --> 00:40:22.510
it was just our friends. We didn't have an algorithm.

00:40:22.630 --> 00:40:24.949
It was just the people we knew in real life.

00:40:25.030 --> 00:40:26.969
And that is how we communicated with them through

00:40:26.969 --> 00:40:30.309
a straight up feed of people we knew. And as

00:40:30.309 --> 00:40:34.150
that increased, we we at least me personally,

00:40:34.289 --> 00:40:37.900
I didn't learn safety of what. to share and what

00:40:37.900 --> 00:40:41.199
not to share. So people had just a complete window

00:40:41.199 --> 00:40:44.840
into my entire life, my relationship, my animals.

00:40:44.960 --> 00:40:48.679
I mean, like everything. And that opens up so

00:40:48.679 --> 00:40:51.219
much for judgment, just like anyone. It's like

00:40:51.219 --> 00:40:53.539
if anyone looks on someone else's life, it's

00:40:53.539 --> 00:40:55.780
like it's like Moe in The Simpsons. Was it was

00:40:55.780 --> 00:40:57.980
it Moe who they the house who fell over? It's

00:40:57.980 --> 00:41:00.539
like, please don't tell anyone how I live. I

00:41:00.539 --> 00:41:03.630
thought it was Larry. It was Lenny. Oh, Lenny.

00:41:03.630 --> 00:41:05.510
Lenny, that's right. Lenny, please don't say

00:41:05.510 --> 00:41:08.570
how I live. Because his house fell apart. And

00:41:08.570 --> 00:41:11.010
that's like literally like what it is. It's like

00:41:11.010 --> 00:41:14.809
we are all just human beings doing our best.

00:41:15.170 --> 00:41:19.590
And that sort of scrutiny and just like living

00:41:19.590 --> 00:41:22.949
your life openly is unhealthy. It's unhealthy.

00:41:23.170 --> 00:41:28.059
And it's not. It's not good for anyone because

00:41:28.059 --> 00:41:30.119
then people it's like people comparing themselves

00:41:30.119 --> 00:41:32.639
to Instagrammers that are looking perfect every

00:41:32.639 --> 00:41:34.039
day. It's like these people are not perfect.

00:41:34.179 --> 00:41:36.000
None of these people are perfect. Yeah. We are

00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:41.400
literal like we are just like we're walking around

00:41:41.400 --> 00:41:46.679
meat suits doing our best, you know. Yeah. Doing

00:41:46.679 --> 00:41:49.380
our best not to fuck up, you know. Right. And

00:41:49.380 --> 00:41:51.900
to not puncture the meat suits. Right. And I

00:41:51.900 --> 00:41:55.590
can tell you that like it's like. I am going

00:41:55.590 --> 00:41:58.989
to school right now for becoming a therapist,

00:41:59.010 --> 00:42:01.809
and I am sure there will be people that have

00:42:01.809 --> 00:42:04.690
made mistakes coming into my therapy office.

00:42:04.730 --> 00:42:08.050
And I am not going to. Why? It's like imagine

00:42:08.050 --> 00:42:10.670
a friend or even a friend telling you, oh, I

00:42:10.670 --> 00:42:12.489
made this mistake. Are you going to be like and

00:42:12.489 --> 00:42:16.289
dunk on them with a beam? Yeah, seriously. Seriously,

00:42:16.429 --> 00:42:19.400
it's unbelievable. Like the way that we. And

00:42:19.400 --> 00:42:21.500
like, you know, like you had said about people

00:42:21.500 --> 00:42:25.059
treating online influencers as characters, it's

00:42:25.059 --> 00:42:27.159
like they treat them as if they don't have feelings,

00:42:27.320 --> 00:42:29.440
as if they aren't more complicated, you know?

00:42:29.500 --> 00:42:32.719
Yeah. But then it's like, and I have so many,

00:42:32.780 --> 00:42:34.739
I don't know, I've researched this a lot, but

00:42:34.739 --> 00:42:38.760
I, it's like, but do I share the JD Vance memes

00:42:38.760 --> 00:42:41.260
of his dumb baby face? Like, absolutely I do.

00:42:43.119 --> 00:42:47.239
It's like, so am I one to come to? complain about

00:42:47.239 --> 00:42:50.199
someone sharing a meme of me that when I was

00:42:50.199 --> 00:42:52.320
at the lowest most terrible point of my life

00:42:52.320 --> 00:42:55.800
I don't know because at some point people just

00:42:55.800 --> 00:43:00.840
need to laugh JD Vance who some might know that

00:43:00.840 --> 00:43:05.579
I when I shared my episode on him that we did

00:43:05.579 --> 00:43:10.210
recently I was very unkind to him and he deserves

00:43:10.210 --> 00:43:12.730
it, though. So and also that's punching up. He's

00:43:12.730 --> 00:43:15.469
the VP. So, you know, yeah, I have no empathy

00:43:15.469 --> 00:43:18.730
for him. I guess that plus he's enabling a dictator.

00:43:19.289 --> 00:43:22.230
Yeah, I guess. I guess that's it. You know, and

00:43:22.230 --> 00:43:25.369
the shame he's continuing to act bad. You know,

00:43:25.369 --> 00:43:28.429
the shame, the shame he if he wants it to stop,

00:43:28.530 --> 00:43:30.670
he can he can get better. You know, you can be

00:43:30.670 --> 00:43:34.230
be a better person. Yeah, I think that's really

00:43:34.230 --> 00:43:36.469
the question you need to ask yourself when you're

00:43:36.469 --> 00:43:38.289
dunking on people on the Internet is not going

00:43:38.289 --> 00:43:40.070
to stop. We are not going to stop dunking on

00:43:40.070 --> 00:43:41.690
people on the Internet for a little chuckle.

00:43:41.710 --> 00:43:43.869
It's not going to stop. But you really need to

00:43:43.869 --> 00:44:02.320
think about if you're punching up. Right. marginalized

00:44:02.320 --> 00:44:04.239
identity. I'm not talking about myself. I'm just

00:44:04.239 --> 00:44:08.739
saying like in general, like, you know, maybe

00:44:08.739 --> 00:44:11.320
don't maybe don't dunk immediately. Maybe think

00:44:11.320 --> 00:44:13.159
about like, hey, maybe this person is hurting

00:44:13.159 --> 00:44:15.179
and maybe I shouldn't take advantage of the fact

00:44:15.179 --> 00:44:17.619
that this person is hurting or messed up. Yeah.

00:44:17.659 --> 00:44:21.340
Yeah. You know, it's and don't don't judge a

00:44:21.340 --> 00:44:23.519
person or assume you know who they are based

00:44:23.519 --> 00:44:26.280
on the worst moments of their lives. You know,

00:44:26.280 --> 00:44:29.380
like because like they're if you're at your lowest

00:44:29.380 --> 00:44:33.030
point. Like imagine I can't I mean, anybody can

00:44:33.030 --> 00:44:35.050
imagine one of their lowest points in their lives

00:44:35.050 --> 00:44:39.170
and having that be everyone's perception of them.

00:44:39.670 --> 00:44:42.590
Just, you know, that's just who you are to other

00:44:42.590 --> 00:44:45.269
people. It would it wouldn't be fair. You know,

00:44:45.269 --> 00:44:48.250
yeah, I see that as fair. When I when again,

00:44:48.349 --> 00:44:50.030
when all this happened, I would walk into like

00:44:50.030 --> 00:44:52.190
a grocery store or something. If someone recognized

00:44:52.190 --> 00:44:55.030
me, I just burst into tears because I was terrified.

00:44:55.289 --> 00:44:58.090
I was terrified for years. Like, I don't think

00:44:58.090 --> 00:45:03.550
I really started to feel normal until like two

00:45:03.550 --> 00:45:06.889
years ago, three years ago, maybe. Like, I was

00:45:06.889 --> 00:45:09.469
terrified because if someone recognized me immediately,

00:45:09.590 --> 00:45:11.650
it was going to be like, oh, you're disgusting.

00:45:11.789 --> 00:45:14.329
You're bad. Like, I can't believe this, blah,

00:45:14.429 --> 00:45:15.849
blah, blah. You know, who even knows? They could

00:45:15.849 --> 00:45:20.329
have said anything. And yeah, I it was really

00:45:20.329 --> 00:45:23.329
hard. You know, it was it's still hard, but it's

00:45:23.329 --> 00:45:27.929
like, you know. I'm not in a war zone. So it's

00:45:27.929 --> 00:45:29.849
like comparatively, I mean, though, I'll say

00:45:29.849 --> 00:45:32.329
we should never compare ourselves to other plates,

00:45:32.469 --> 00:45:37.769
but like. Also, that thought process, too, that's

00:45:37.769 --> 00:45:40.289
whataboutism, you know? No, exactly. It doesn't

00:45:40.289 --> 00:45:42.650
mean that what you went through or what you're

00:45:42.650 --> 00:45:45.230
going through is any less valid just because

00:45:45.230 --> 00:45:47.650
there are worse things, you know? No, no. That's

00:45:47.650 --> 00:45:49.829
a silly way to look at the world. My therapist

00:45:49.829 --> 00:45:53.349
has told me that, too. Yeah, right. Yeah. See?

00:45:53.869 --> 00:45:56.730
So also therapists are all in therapy. So like,

00:45:56.769 --> 00:45:58.489
you know, I'm only my I'm only my first year.

00:45:58.590 --> 00:46:03.010
So give me a break. But no, like it's that's

00:46:03.010 --> 00:46:04.869
for no, that's for sure. True. I just think like

00:46:04.869 --> 00:46:09.989
it's. Yeah, it's it's hard. And it's like your

00:46:09.989 --> 00:46:13.369
whole safety in in your personhood is completely

00:46:13.369 --> 00:46:16.429
destroyed. Like I had to completely real like

00:46:16.429 --> 00:46:19.210
understand who I was again as a person. Yeah.

00:46:19.389 --> 00:46:22.469
Yeah. And that's, you know, that was that was

00:46:22.469 --> 00:46:27.269
also hard. Like, yeah, it was wild. And there

00:46:27.269 --> 00:46:28.670
were, you know, of course, there's going to be

00:46:28.670 --> 00:46:31.130
some listeners who think something like, you

00:46:31.130 --> 00:46:32.650
know, well, nobody cares about an event that

00:46:32.650 --> 00:46:34.469
happened that long ago. Only you were bringing

00:46:34.469 --> 00:46:36.510
it up. Like, first off, definitely not true.

00:46:37.789 --> 00:46:40.849
And there are those who will continue to bring

00:46:40.849 --> 00:46:43.889
up past transgressions anytime a creator puts

00:46:43.889 --> 00:46:47.039
out content for others to see. either for the

00:46:47.039 --> 00:46:49.599
purpose of trolling or because they sincerely

00:46:49.599 --> 00:46:51.920
want the target of their ire to never succeed

00:46:51.920 --> 00:46:54.840
or live down their past mistakes. But not caring

00:46:54.840 --> 00:46:58.059
is also kind of part of the issue. The fleeting

00:46:58.059 --> 00:47:00.460
interest in a public figure's downfall is part

00:47:00.460 --> 00:47:03.000
of why public chaining maintains such permanent

00:47:03.000 --> 00:47:06.440
results. This works on multiple levels. First,

00:47:06.519 --> 00:47:10.260
those who with the cat. First, those with the

00:47:10.260 --> 00:47:13.480
capacity to let things go have moved on, allowing

00:47:13.480 --> 00:47:15.760
those without that capacity to control the narrative.

00:47:16.139 --> 00:47:20.179
Any new audience a previously shamed creator

00:47:20.179 --> 00:47:23.239
may curate is almost immediately met with the

00:47:23.239 --> 00:47:28.199
creator's past drama. Without those supporting

00:47:28.199 --> 00:47:30.460
the influencer's rehabilitation, the effects

00:47:30.460 --> 00:47:33.320
of the previous shaming get to live on. For example,

00:47:33.769 --> 00:47:35.889
The first comments a new audience will likely

00:47:35.889 --> 00:47:37.949
see is something like, hey, aren't you that guy

00:47:37.949 --> 00:47:39.889
who accidentally showed porn on a live stream,

00:47:40.070 --> 00:47:43.230
lol? Fresh audiences are already affected by

00:47:43.230 --> 00:47:46.210
the influencer's past. And since both the creator

00:47:46.210 --> 00:47:48.909
and their past situation is new to the new viewers,

00:47:49.090 --> 00:47:51.449
there will be a tendency to equate the creator

00:47:51.449 --> 00:47:54.210
with that mistake all over again. Being aware

00:47:54.210 --> 00:47:56.929
of the fleeting interest also leads to a rush

00:47:56.929 --> 00:48:00.210
to bestow shame before understanding the situation.

00:48:00.690 --> 00:48:03.360
Drama Drama channels, for example, find themselves

00:48:03.360 --> 00:48:05.880
in a hurry to get their content out before things

00:48:05.880 --> 00:48:08.940
cool down and before everyone has had time to

00:48:08.940 --> 00:48:11.039
carefully think about how to approach a controversy.

00:48:13.500 --> 00:48:18.880
So, this belief that quickly nobody cares ultimately

00:48:18.880 --> 00:48:22.179
becomes part of the problem. A better approach

00:48:22.179 --> 00:48:26.219
is to find interest not exclusively in the call

00:48:26.219 --> 00:48:29.079
-out, but also in the redemption of those who

00:48:29.079 --> 00:48:31.619
find themselves marred in controversy. The attention

00:48:31.619 --> 00:48:33.739
paid to the creator's recovery could inspire

00:48:33.739 --> 00:48:36.699
others to do better rather than seeing shamelessness

00:48:36.699 --> 00:48:41.320
as their best option. Yeah, no, absolutely. And

00:48:41.320 --> 00:48:45.000
also, they're making money. They're making money

00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:50.059
off of people's pain. Yes, yes. It's like the

00:48:50.059 --> 00:48:53.000
age of those, they're still there, the drama

00:48:53.000 --> 00:48:55.900
YouTubers, they're literally making money off

00:48:55.900 --> 00:49:01.099
of people's pain. It's just it's so evil. Like

00:49:01.099 --> 00:49:03.960
it is so vile. It's so gross. And like you have

00:49:03.960 --> 00:49:07.039
there's got to be you have to be lacking empathy

00:49:07.039 --> 00:49:10.219
in order to think that that livelihood is OK.

00:49:10.980 --> 00:49:14.780
I mean, no. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And

00:49:14.780 --> 00:49:19.500
I don't I. I don't know. I mean, capitalism is

00:49:19.500 --> 00:49:23.000
ruining us all, but it's right. Yeah, it's been

00:49:23.000 --> 00:49:25.880
for a long time. Yeah, it's exactly. But it's

00:49:25.880 --> 00:49:29.139
like, yeah, it's it's a vile thing. And it's

00:49:29.139 --> 00:49:31.480
it's like the old tabloids, you know, who used

00:49:31.480 --> 00:49:33.559
to chase the celebrities around and then put

00:49:33.559 --> 00:49:36.659
out. It's like the Inquirer, you know, it's like

00:49:36.659 --> 00:49:39.900
but like in a worse way, in a worse way where

00:49:39.900 --> 00:49:44.780
it's it's even more. sensationalized because

00:49:44.780 --> 00:49:48.579
if they act like can you believe and like do

00:49:48.579 --> 00:49:50.840
a thumbnail where they're doing like a whoa and

00:49:50.840 --> 00:49:55.179
an emoji of an exploding head and it's like porn

00:49:55.179 --> 00:49:59.900
right yeah and then like and then the inside

00:49:59.900 --> 00:50:02.760
is like just reading tweets it's like they're

00:50:02.760 --> 00:50:06.269
sensationalizing it and Making and just spreading

00:50:06.269 --> 00:50:09.530
false information, which, again, is wacky because

00:50:09.530 --> 00:50:12.610
that's how we ended up here politically. Right.

00:50:12.769 --> 00:50:17.909
Yeah. It's had a real effect on our on our society

00:50:17.909 --> 00:50:20.389
and in more ways than one. So, like, you know,

00:50:20.389 --> 00:50:24.639
for example. Bystanders observing others being

00:50:24.639 --> 00:50:26.800
canceled are encouraged to recede into groups

00:50:26.800 --> 00:50:29.460
of peers that share their views, limiting their

00:50:29.460 --> 00:50:32.500
exposure to diverse thoughts. So we get these

00:50:32.500 --> 00:50:38.539
people backing into these, you know, you can't

00:50:38.539 --> 00:50:41.980
have a conversation with anybody who is not one

00:50:41.980 --> 00:50:44.179
of yours. You know what I mean? So like you,

00:50:44.239 --> 00:50:48.239
we end up, I don't know, by being hypercritical

00:50:48.239 --> 00:50:53.000
of everyone we encounter. It discourages conversation

00:50:53.000 --> 00:50:55.699
is, I guess, what I'm trying to say. Well, I

00:50:55.699 --> 00:50:57.820
mean, that's why we are where we are. If we try

00:50:57.820 --> 00:51:00.639
to talk to anyone about politics, I've tried.

00:51:00.760 --> 00:51:02.980
I've tried to have discussions with people on

00:51:02.980 --> 00:51:05.739
the Internet and be like, hey, like and the most

00:51:05.739 --> 00:51:08.199
basic thing, the most basic thing like, hey,

00:51:08.219 --> 00:51:11.179
abortions are illegal in some states and women

00:51:11.179 --> 00:51:14.860
are dying. Fact, actual facts, facts you can

00:51:14.860 --> 00:51:18.260
Google. Yeah. Basic facts. And they will tell

00:51:18.260 --> 00:51:22.360
me that that is not happening. I'm like, that's

00:51:22.360 --> 00:51:28.980
what like I because without the media literacy

00:51:28.980 --> 00:51:31.840
of understanding that people on the Internet

00:51:31.840 --> 00:51:35.599
can just lie to you. Yeah, right. And that's

00:51:35.599 --> 00:51:40.019
another thing, too, is the in terms of that just

00:51:40.019 --> 00:51:42.659
lying or making things up or sensationalizing

00:51:42.659 --> 00:51:45.019
things or, you know, putting out completely.

00:51:46.079 --> 00:51:49.260
absurd information or even even if say if one

00:51:49.260 --> 00:51:52.659
of these drama channels puts out like a video

00:51:52.659 --> 00:51:56.539
and they're actually honest about what whatever

00:51:56.539 --> 00:51:59.980
it is but then their clickbait title is such

00:51:59.980 --> 00:52:02.420
and such is even worse than you think you know

00:52:02.420 --> 00:52:06.880
and that eats puppies right yeah and what but

00:52:06.880 --> 00:52:08.579
there was a question mark on there that wasn't

00:52:08.579 --> 00:52:10.519
a claim you know we were just asking you know

00:52:10.519 --> 00:52:13.739
just do do they eat puppies you know i don't

00:52:13.739 --> 00:52:16.480
know Like, can you prove that you don't eat puppies?

00:52:16.880 --> 00:52:19.760
Yeah. And then you go into YouTube and it's like,

00:52:19.820 --> 00:52:21.920
learn how to make catchy thumbnails. And it's

00:52:21.920 --> 00:52:25.400
like that same sensationalist title. Learn how

00:52:25.400 --> 00:52:28.420
to make catchy thumbnails worse than you think.

00:52:28.800 --> 00:52:34.719
Yeah. So easy. Head explode. I one time and I

00:52:34.719 --> 00:52:37.099
think I've told this story before is when I used

00:52:37.099 --> 00:52:39.639
to do Let's Plays one time that thousand degree

00:52:39.639 --> 00:52:41.460
knife thing was going around. Do you remember

00:52:41.460 --> 00:52:43.960
that? It was like thousand degree knife cuts,

00:52:44.039 --> 00:52:47.980
whatever. And I put it on one thumbnail. It was

00:52:47.980 --> 00:52:50.360
a Pokemon playthrough and it was like 20 videos

00:52:50.360 --> 00:52:52.179
in. And I was like, the views were dropping.

00:52:52.239 --> 00:52:54.860
I was like, they do when series. And I was like,

00:52:54.880 --> 00:52:56.400
I'm just going to try it. I'm just going to put

00:52:56.400 --> 00:52:59.719
no context, a picture of a thousand degree knife

00:52:59.719 --> 00:53:01.920
on the thumbnail. Just the regular, just the

00:53:01.920 --> 00:53:05.750
knife. Hot. hot knife it got like it got like

00:53:05.750 --> 00:53:09.210
over like 20 ,000 more views because there's

00:53:09.210 --> 00:53:11.070
a picture of a thousand degree knife on it so

00:53:11.070 --> 00:53:13.989
there was a bump like in the series because just

00:53:13.989 --> 00:53:15.730
because there's a thousand degree knife yes because

00:53:15.730 --> 00:53:19.349
there was a knife on it I wonder I wonder if

00:53:19.349 --> 00:53:21.849
there was if if they're like I like I know that

00:53:21.849 --> 00:53:23.849
people are probably habitually cut like clicking

00:53:23.849 --> 00:53:25.650
the things with that knife on it because they

00:53:25.650 --> 00:53:27.610
just keep wanting to watch it cut through shit.

00:53:27.769 --> 00:53:29.630
I don't know if it's the people or if it's the

00:53:29.630 --> 00:53:33.929
algorithm. Can we also can we also all like point

00:53:33.929 --> 00:53:35.829
out the fact that there's no fucking way that

00:53:35.829 --> 00:53:38.489
knife was a thousand degrees. It's so that's

00:53:38.489 --> 00:53:40.530
so irritating. Like it's not even a thousand

00:53:40.530 --> 00:53:43.530
degrees. Sometimes some of the titles were like

00:53:43.530 --> 00:53:45.309
ten thousand degree knife. Like, no, it's not.

00:53:45.650 --> 00:53:48.469
No, it's not. No, it wasn't. It's a hot knife.

00:53:48.530 --> 00:53:51.349
Yeah. But it also doesn't matter because facts

00:53:51.349 --> 00:53:52.949
don't matter. None of that actually matters.

00:53:53.130 --> 00:53:56.269
It's like, well, there's a knife like. Yeah.

00:53:56.349 --> 00:53:58.469
The point of this episode is fuck that knife.

00:53:58.550 --> 00:54:03.610
That's the fucking knife. It's bad. It's bad.

00:54:03.829 --> 00:54:07.230
You know, and I think, again, like I've thought

00:54:07.230 --> 00:54:09.809
about all of this stuff so much, like to the

00:54:09.809 --> 00:54:11.409
point where, like, I feel like my brain just

00:54:11.409 --> 00:54:14.869
melted out of my head. Because I want to have

00:54:14.869 --> 00:54:16.949
empathy for everyone and I want to have empathy

00:54:16.949 --> 00:54:20.070
for the people that are commenting these things.

00:54:20.230 --> 00:54:22.849
I want to say, like, why are they doing this?

00:54:22.929 --> 00:54:25.469
Why are they why? It's like, why are people on

00:54:25.469 --> 00:54:28.769
low cow? Why are people doing this? And it's

00:54:28.769 --> 00:54:32.110
like it's because they're truly, truly unhappy

00:54:32.110 --> 00:54:35.309
and they're finding ways to get dopamine and

00:54:35.309 --> 00:54:40.349
you can get dopamine from these from scrolling

00:54:40.349 --> 00:54:45.780
from. from anger, from disappointment, like that,

00:54:45.820 --> 00:54:49.880
it can give you dopamine. Now, you can be normal

00:54:49.880 --> 00:54:52.599
like us and read articles about terrible people

00:54:52.599 --> 00:54:55.800
in the past. Yeah, perfectly normal thing to

00:54:55.800 --> 00:54:59.440
do. But I think a lot of people now are being

00:54:59.440 --> 00:55:02.150
fed things in the algorithm. If they're unhappy,

00:55:02.530 --> 00:55:04.610
they're looking at unhappy things. They're unhappy.

00:55:05.070 --> 00:55:08.730
It continues to make them depressed. The depression.

00:55:08.750 --> 00:55:10.829
Then then they learn one of their favorite creators

00:55:10.829 --> 00:55:13.449
did something bad. Well, oh, my God, this is

00:55:13.449 --> 00:55:16.650
the only person that sees me. Their anger translate

00:55:16.650 --> 00:55:19.269
into a comment, into, you know, sharing because

00:55:19.269 --> 00:55:22.710
it's it's that compounding of negative feelings.

00:55:23.030 --> 00:55:24.789
And then they assume like, oh, well, if they

00:55:24.789 --> 00:55:27.210
did this one bad thing, they must be bad. Yeah.

00:55:27.289 --> 00:55:29.170
And it's and that's because they feel that about

00:55:29.170 --> 00:55:32.829
themselves. It's like they can't. a lot of people

00:55:32.829 --> 00:55:36.809
I think who are so negative on the internet haven't

00:55:36.809 --> 00:55:39.170
looked at themselves and said I made a mistake

00:55:39.170 --> 00:55:41.630
and that's okay or I did this and that's okay

00:55:41.630 --> 00:55:43.590
or I don't have the perfect job and that's okay

00:55:43.590 --> 00:55:47.329
I'm still good because that's the poison that

00:55:47.329 --> 00:55:52.949
capitalism has fed us yeah yeah and the it's

00:55:52.949 --> 00:55:56.530
so hard and patriarchy and sexism I mean and

00:55:56.530 --> 00:56:00.269
and uh racism it's like that we have been fed

00:56:00.269 --> 00:56:03.929
these things by society and this is why internet

00:56:03.929 --> 00:56:07.150
the internet and why the internet culture has

00:56:07.150 --> 00:56:10.550
turned into what it is yeah yeah and that's that

00:56:10.550 --> 00:56:15.750
is so well put i sorry i'm trying to pull up

00:56:15.750 --> 00:56:18.309
another part of the script but i'm on a new pc

00:56:18.309 --> 00:56:20.949
that doesn't have word on it and oh no that's

00:56:20.949 --> 00:56:23.579
the worst being It's being a big jerk. I'm going

00:56:23.579 --> 00:56:25.159
to have to read it in Notepad and just ignore

00:56:25.159 --> 00:56:26.539
all the commands that are in there. Oh, my God.

00:56:26.780 --> 00:56:31.320
Okay. But it does bring me to a part that I didn't

00:56:31.320 --> 00:56:33.460
put in the main script that I did still want

00:56:33.460 --> 00:56:36.079
to talk about. I sent myself the file from another

00:56:36.079 --> 00:56:41.880
PC, and it's a mess. But let's see. I will edit

00:56:41.880 --> 00:56:52.219
all this nonsense. You know, I know what I wanted

00:56:52.219 --> 00:56:54.480
to say. It may not be as eloquent as I wrote

00:56:54.480 --> 00:56:57.780
it, but it's fine. But like, you know, the the

00:56:57.780 --> 00:57:01.840
the fact that sometimes publicly shaming somebody

00:57:01.840 --> 00:57:04.280
else comes from shame from your own mistakes

00:57:04.280 --> 00:57:08.119
or your own past or feeling like you can't outrun

00:57:08.119 --> 00:57:11.440
your embarrassments. You know, the that that

00:57:11.440 --> 00:57:16.079
becomes an incentive to shame somebody else,

00:57:16.199 --> 00:57:20.650
you know, to feel better about yourself. I like

00:57:20.650 --> 00:57:24.170
I hate that because then we we have this environment

00:57:24.170 --> 00:57:27.309
online where we don't get to see people's redemption.

00:57:27.369 --> 00:57:29.710
We don't get to see people change. And I love

00:57:29.710 --> 00:57:32.130
seeing people change. I love seeing people grow.

00:57:32.150 --> 00:57:35.250
And because it reminds me and it reminds me that

00:57:35.250 --> 00:57:38.230
I can learn from my mistakes, that I can I don't

00:57:38.230 --> 00:57:41.070
need to be embarrassed forever about my past

00:57:41.070 --> 00:57:45.659
because. I can instead I can approach it in a

00:57:45.659 --> 00:57:48.219
healthy way and I can I can learn from things,

00:57:48.340 --> 00:57:52.159
you know, and, you know, I think that the absence

00:57:52.159 --> 00:57:54.940
of that on the Internet is bad for everybody's

00:57:54.940 --> 00:57:58.400
mental health. It's bad for everybody's interactions

00:57:58.400 --> 00:58:06.300
online. And when we attack people for even suggesting

00:58:06.300 --> 00:58:11.469
that somebody is. worthy of redemption you know

00:58:11.469 --> 00:58:14.429
or has changed or it's like oh you know and then

00:58:14.429 --> 00:58:16.010
there's the whole you know when somebody does

00:58:16.010 --> 00:58:18.929
grow the first response is oh they're just trying

00:58:18.929 --> 00:58:22.269
to protect their own ass you know like no like

00:58:22.269 --> 00:58:24.489
people are capable of change people are capable

00:58:24.489 --> 00:58:27.449
of growth and and to pretend that they're not

00:58:27.449 --> 00:58:31.570
it like imagine like all the fucked up things

00:58:31.570 --> 00:58:34.210
like that that we used to believe we used to

00:58:34.210 --> 00:58:36.909
think you know Um, especially when we were too

00:58:36.909 --> 00:58:38.710
young to understand certain things, you know,

00:58:38.710 --> 00:58:41.829
or to understand, uh, certain behaviors and like,

00:58:41.869 --> 00:58:44.030
I'm certainly a more empathetic person now than

00:58:44.030 --> 00:58:47.449
I was when I was in my teens, you know? And if

00:58:47.449 --> 00:58:53.030
I was not able to grow from that, that would

00:58:53.030 --> 00:58:56.070
be a very sad life indeed. And, and the fact

00:58:56.070 --> 00:59:00.440
that we don't see that growth online. Kids aren't

00:59:00.440 --> 00:59:02.780
they're not learning about the growth of other

00:59:02.780 --> 00:59:06.320
humans. They're not learning about people learning

00:59:06.320 --> 00:59:08.599
from their mistakes. And, you know, the best

00:59:08.599 --> 00:59:11.139
way that they learn it is by watching like Bluey

00:59:11.139 --> 00:59:14.559
or some shit. And but when you go online, everybody

00:59:14.559 --> 00:59:16.320
assumes that's the real world and that's the

00:59:16.320 --> 00:59:19.860
way everything is. And you don't see it. There's

00:59:19.860 --> 00:59:22.679
there is a notable absence of growth online.

00:59:22.940 --> 00:59:25.420
And, you know, in terms of in the way that we.

00:59:26.089 --> 00:59:28.829
Treat other people and in the way that we treat

00:59:28.829 --> 00:59:33.590
them as characters and and how you know and a

00:59:33.590 --> 00:59:35.429
lot of that I know that a lot of that stems from

00:59:35.429 --> 00:59:38.989
the fact that a lot of creators try to hide their

00:59:38.989 --> 00:59:42.349
flaws hide their mistakes and Well, that's out

00:59:42.349 --> 00:59:45.880
of fear. Yeah, it is. I mean Right. And out of

00:59:45.880 --> 00:59:47.940
fear of losing their livelihood. I mean, it's

00:59:47.940 --> 00:59:50.340
like like in my situation, a lot of people didn't

00:59:50.340 --> 01:00:16.820
defend me despite knowing everything. Yeah. that

01:00:16.820 --> 01:00:21.280
like culturally the internet like has been you

01:00:21.280 --> 01:00:24.460
know not growing and I think partially again

01:00:24.460 --> 01:00:28.619
that's because it's like chat GPT it's like people

01:00:28.619 --> 01:00:31.599
on the internet can find a place that validates

01:00:31.599 --> 01:00:36.880
their their maladaptive or bad behaviors and

01:00:36.880 --> 01:00:38.980
that's and they can find that place I mean that's

01:00:38.980 --> 01:00:42.559
why we have incels that's why we have that sort

01:00:42.559 --> 01:00:46.079
of situation you know People can find a place

01:00:46.079 --> 01:00:47.840
where they are validated and where people will

01:00:47.840 --> 01:00:50.179
be unhealthy together and just create a maelstrom

01:00:50.179 --> 01:00:54.039
of unhealthiness. And I think that's, again,

01:00:54.420 --> 01:00:56.880
why we are where we are, because instead of growing,

01:00:57.199 --> 01:01:00.960
they're not going and seeing people face to face.

01:01:01.079 --> 01:01:03.059
They're not talking to people. They're not out

01:01:03.059 --> 01:01:04.460
of their comfort zone. They're not talking to

01:01:04.460 --> 01:01:06.280
other cultures. They're not talking to other

01:01:06.280 --> 01:01:09.820
genders. They're not talking. They're just insular

01:01:09.820 --> 01:01:15.829
in these groups that validate. Yeah. Yeah. And

01:01:15.829 --> 01:01:44.420
it's terrible. of a more in -depth understanding

01:01:44.420 --> 01:01:46.920
of each other as people, because like one, we

01:01:46.920 --> 01:01:51.820
don't have the time and two, we don't, we're,

01:01:51.820 --> 01:01:57.500
we're standoffish online. Um, and I think that

01:01:57.500 --> 01:02:05.340
when, when there, there's that missing, you know,

01:02:05.360 --> 01:02:07.079
when there, where the, that communication is

01:02:07.079 --> 01:02:09.820
missing. People fill in those gaps with what

01:02:09.820 --> 01:02:12.019
they want to believe. They fill in those gaps

01:02:12.019 --> 01:02:17.260
with, you know, what little they know. And it

01:02:17.260 --> 01:02:20.260
just ends up becoming this like blanket understanding

01:02:20.260 --> 01:02:25.420
of what each person is. And I don't know. I mean,

01:02:25.460 --> 01:02:27.519
obviously, we don't want to share everything

01:02:27.519 --> 01:02:30.519
about ourselves online. You know, that would

01:02:30.519 --> 01:02:39.289
be unhealthy in another way. the growth and progress

01:02:39.289 --> 01:02:41.309
in other humans. Oh, for sure. And that we could

01:02:41.309 --> 01:02:44.250
see their flaws and things. Well, and like in

01:02:44.250 --> 01:02:47.309
stories, that's why we have stories of redemption,

01:02:47.530 --> 01:02:50.050
you know? Yeah, yeah. And like, this is because

01:02:50.050 --> 01:02:52.429
I'm biased. I've been watching it a bunch, but

01:02:52.429 --> 01:02:56.449
like, it's like K -pop Demon Hunter, which I

01:02:56.449 --> 01:02:58.849
really enjoyed and I really liked it. But it's

01:02:58.849 --> 01:03:01.809
like the whole point of that movie is that we

01:03:01.809 --> 01:03:04.599
make mistakes. And that we hide things about

01:03:04.599 --> 01:03:07.980
ourselves and that we don't always do the right

01:03:07.980 --> 01:03:11.260
thing at the time, but we can learn and grow

01:03:11.260 --> 01:03:14.659
and apologize and be there for each other in

01:03:14.659 --> 01:03:19.380
the end. And that growth is what makes us beautiful.

01:03:19.820 --> 01:03:25.400
Yeah. Yeah. And and I think that when we're trying

01:03:25.400 --> 01:03:27.960
to sell ourselves as a product, we ignore those

01:03:27.960 --> 01:03:30.539
flaws. You know, it's like it's why it's why.

01:03:32.360 --> 01:03:35.139
Like Sherlock Holmes is addicted to drugs, you

01:03:35.139 --> 01:03:38.679
know, that like that there are like, it's important

01:03:38.679 --> 01:03:42.219
for these like bigger than life characters to

01:03:42.219 --> 01:03:45.340
also have flaws. Um, and, and it's important

01:03:45.340 --> 01:03:48.840
to see that and to be able, it's, it's encouraging

01:03:48.840 --> 01:03:55.559
to know that even those we look up to also have

01:03:55.559 --> 01:03:59.230
made mistakes, you know? And it's not healthy

01:03:59.230 --> 01:04:01.650
to pretend like they haven't or that we haven't,

01:04:01.650 --> 01:04:07.070
you know. And so I just I kind of want to close

01:04:07.070 --> 01:04:12.349
with with this about the fact that that some

01:04:12.349 --> 01:04:15.070
netizens will express like a need to lash out

01:04:15.070 --> 01:04:18.269
at individuals because of perceived transgression

01:04:18.269 --> 01:04:21.750
against creators they like. And this is classic

01:04:21.750 --> 01:04:24.769
problematic parasocial behavior. Creators don't

01:04:24.769 --> 01:04:27.769
need you to fight their battles for them. They

01:04:27.769 --> 01:04:29.789
can and should deal with their personal problems

01:04:29.789 --> 01:04:33.050
personally. And if an influencer wants their

01:04:33.050 --> 01:04:34.969
audience to put someone through hell for them,

01:04:35.030 --> 01:04:37.610
then that that influencer's own morals should

01:04:37.610 --> 01:04:41.230
be reexamined. God, that's so bad. It's awful.

01:04:41.570 --> 01:04:44.429
But, you know, and and really you should reconsider

01:04:44.429 --> 01:04:47.230
whether you really want to be influenced by somebody

01:04:47.230 --> 01:04:51.690
who behaves in such a vindictive way. God, it's

01:04:51.690 --> 01:04:55.190
just like. Yeah. I mean, it's just like, look

01:04:55.190 --> 01:04:58.110
again, look at the president, most vindictive

01:04:58.110 --> 01:05:01.030
person I've ever seen on the public stage. It's

01:05:01.030 --> 01:05:06.110
so it's so not OK. Yeah. Yeah. And that's that's

01:05:06.110 --> 01:05:07.829
why we need to keep reminding ourselves that

01:05:07.829 --> 01:05:10.949
this kind of thing is not normal. No. And feeling

01:05:10.949 --> 01:05:13.469
that the feeling of vindictiveness, like every

01:05:13.469 --> 01:05:16.050
human has felt it, every single human. Yes. And

01:05:16.050 --> 01:05:18.469
identifying that and being like, this is not

01:05:18.469 --> 01:05:21.829
a good feeling. I do not want this feeling. And

01:05:21.829 --> 01:05:25.429
working on not being that way is so and having

01:05:25.429 --> 01:05:28.010
self -reflection and looking at yourself and

01:05:28.010 --> 01:05:31.619
forgiving people. Makes you a bigger person and

01:05:31.619 --> 01:05:34.039
a better person and a more healthy person and

01:05:34.039 --> 01:05:36.320
a happier person. Yes. The happier part, too,

01:05:36.440 --> 01:05:39.340
like that you feel better. Right. Anyone who

01:05:39.340 --> 01:05:41.920
is vindictive and wishes the downfall of someone

01:05:41.920 --> 01:05:45.400
else is not healthy or happy. No, they're they're

01:05:45.400 --> 01:05:48.559
miserable in their own lives. Exactly. And that's

01:05:48.559 --> 01:05:52.079
why when I see people being so vitriolic online,

01:05:52.420 --> 01:05:57.119
it's like I know I know why. It comes from a

01:05:57.119 --> 01:05:59.539
place of pain. Yeah, absolutely. A lot of times

01:05:59.539 --> 01:06:03.420
it does. Absolutely. Yeah. So any closing thoughts?

01:06:05.099 --> 01:06:10.000
Oh, bad. I don't know. I mean. Just be fucking

01:06:10.000 --> 01:06:11.780
nice to each other, people. I mean, come on.

01:06:11.980 --> 01:06:16.980
I mean, it's like. Yeah. I mean, I don't know.

01:06:17.000 --> 01:06:19.619
I loved what I did. It really brought a lot of

01:06:19.619 --> 01:06:21.980
joy to my life. But like the biggest joy from

01:06:21.980 --> 01:06:26.179
it was feeling like I helped people. Help people

01:06:26.179 --> 01:06:28.860
feel seen and help people feel like less alone.

01:06:29.659 --> 01:06:34.099
And I think that's, you know, like I just said

01:06:34.099 --> 01:06:36.659
a second ago, that's why a lot of people find

01:06:36.659 --> 01:06:40.179
really terrible communities and really terrible

01:06:40.179 --> 01:06:45.280
places that that encourage them to be unhealthy.

01:06:45.820 --> 01:06:50.239
But like I never I like if people the people

01:06:50.239 --> 01:06:52.599
that followed me, I tried to tell them that they

01:06:52.599 --> 01:06:55.630
were good. And that they were loved and that

01:06:55.630 --> 01:06:58.929
they deserved to have a good life. And I would

01:06:58.929 --> 01:07:03.769
try so hard to help them feel just seen. And

01:07:03.769 --> 01:07:06.489
it was a lot of like young queer people that

01:07:06.489 --> 01:07:10.090
I loved. I loved it. I loved what I did. I'm

01:07:10.090 --> 01:07:13.849
like getting sad. I really did. I really did

01:07:13.849 --> 01:07:17.510
love what I did. And I'm not faking it. I'm not.

01:07:17.570 --> 01:07:20.489
I promise. I don't have to preface it with that.

01:07:20.550 --> 01:07:25.110
But I really loved it. I'm thankful that I can

01:07:25.110 --> 01:07:28.090
do that again as a therapist. Like I'm working

01:07:28.090 --> 01:07:31.710
on trying to get like all my stuff, you know,

01:07:31.710 --> 01:07:34.909
it'll be another three years, two and a half.

01:07:36.369 --> 01:07:39.110
Because I really loved helping people and helping

01:07:39.110 --> 01:07:40.929
people feel less alone because that's what I

01:07:40.929 --> 01:07:44.210
wish I had. I wish I'd had that when I was young

01:07:44.210 --> 01:07:48.130
because I wasn't seen. Like I spent it alone

01:07:48.130 --> 01:07:51.730
and I spent it like, you know, reading D &D books.

01:07:53.050 --> 01:07:57.550
just being a nerd and like, I was happy that

01:07:57.550 --> 01:07:59.949
there were other people out there like me too.

01:08:00.190 --> 01:08:03.010
So I just hope that every, I just want everyone

01:08:03.010 --> 01:08:05.150
to be doing okay because things are hard right

01:08:05.150 --> 01:08:08.889
now. And it's like, like where, where do we,

01:08:08.949 --> 01:08:11.590
all we can do is build community, you know? And

01:08:11.590 --> 01:08:15.150
like, I feel like the only future that we have

01:08:15.150 --> 01:08:18.350
that's positive is building in -person community

01:08:18.350 --> 01:08:22.229
and trying to stay positive and trying to. help

01:08:22.229 --> 01:08:25.649
each other because it's just there's a lot of

01:08:25.649 --> 01:08:29.109
negativity that has been bred from these online

01:08:29.109 --> 01:08:32.710
spaces and I saw it firsthand I saw it happen

01:08:32.710 --> 01:08:38.069
and I saw people who were kind being so angry

01:08:38.069 --> 01:08:43.770
and it's I don't know it I mean it's and that's

01:08:43.770 --> 01:08:46.609
another thing is like this is like weird but

01:08:46.609 --> 01:08:49.840
I'm thankful that it happened to me I am thankful

01:08:49.840 --> 01:08:51.680
that it happened to me because I don't think

01:08:51.680 --> 01:08:53.939
that I would have the perspective that I do now

01:08:53.939 --> 01:09:02.300
of my own life and my own ability to help people

01:09:02.300 --> 01:09:05.939
and my own self -sabotaging that I was doing.

01:09:06.140 --> 01:09:10.500
I was giving so much of myself to other people

01:09:10.500 --> 01:09:13.020
that did not deserve that part of me or deserve

01:09:13.020 --> 01:09:16.899
any help from me. And now I have boundaries for

01:09:16.899 --> 01:09:21.489
that. give myself away freely anymore and I think

01:09:21.489 --> 01:09:24.329
that's what a lot of traumatized kids who grew

01:09:24.329 --> 01:09:27.630
up traumatized like learning that is a hard lesson

01:09:27.630 --> 01:09:30.630
and a lot of times you have to blow up your life

01:09:30.630 --> 01:09:38.989
to learn that lesson this was incredible sorry

01:09:38.989 --> 01:09:41.229
I wasn't I told myself I wasn't gonna cry but

01:09:41.229 --> 01:09:48.590
like no this is I thank you That's okay. Crying

01:09:48.590 --> 01:09:51.949
is good. Don't think that. Crying is good. Emotions

01:09:51.949 --> 01:09:56.710
are good. Yes, emotions are good. Thumbs up again.

01:09:57.229 --> 01:10:01.810
Yes, yes. It feels almost awkward doing my normal

01:10:01.810 --> 01:10:05.970
closing bit, but thank you all so much for listening.

01:10:06.310 --> 01:10:09.430
Goodbye, everybody. Yeah, go say hi to the birds

01:10:09.430 --> 01:10:13.819
outside. Oh, and listeners, I can I can vouch.

01:10:13.939 --> 01:10:16.619
She definitely loves birds. We've had multiple

01:10:16.619 --> 01:10:18.960
conversations where her chickens were distracting

01:10:18.960 --> 01:10:22.060
her. Yeah, my chickens in the basement right

01:10:22.060 --> 01:10:24.199
now. She one of my other chickens was bullying

01:10:24.199 --> 01:10:27.420
her and now she has to. It's a long thing. Yeah.

01:10:27.680 --> 01:10:30.220
Chickens have feelings, too. They do. They're

01:10:30.220 --> 01:10:33.680
very sensitive. Thank you so much for listening.

01:10:33.939 --> 01:10:34.819
Goodbye, everybody.