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We mistook politics for the gospel. What are the prophets saying? If we can't trust the prophets,

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who can we trust? It is absolutely wrong to say that the prophets got it right in 2020 because

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Trump was elected a second term. Let me explain why. Dr. Michael Brown, it's great to have you

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back here on Charisma. You're such a wealth of wisdom and knowledge about spirit-filled things,

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especially. You have such a great understanding of how to communicate things that are very complex.

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The thing that we're going to talk about today is the prophetic and specifically relating to

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what happened in 2020 regarding all these Trump prophecies. Now that he has been elected for a

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second term, there seems to be some confusion amongst the spirit-filled, charismatic camp,

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we'll call it that. Maybe we can actually address some of the stuff with the prophetic standards

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statement, which I've read through it. I highlighted a lot of things that I thought,

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this actually, if anybody takes the time to read this, they're going to understand a lot better.

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It's not just saying, we want to be in control of the prophetic movement. It's here's guidelines

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and rails. Dr. Brown, thank you so much for taking the time to help bring clarity to this confusion.

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Dr. Brown Oh, great to be with you, John. I tell a lot of people that the key to wisdom is you learn

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from your mistakes. As I approach 70 years old, I've probably made more mistakes than most, bounced

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off enough walls. If you live long enough and learn from your mistakes, people think you're wise.

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I'll not hear as the corrector in chief or the watchman over the prophets or something like that,

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just another brother in the body, another leader that's been around for a while that wants to

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see some sobriety come. I'm jealous for the reputation of the Lord. I work in a lot of

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circles that are not charismatic, that are not Pentecostal. They think we're loonies. They think

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we're off the deep end. Part of it, I say we, because I'm charismatic Pentecostal to the core,

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we have been lax in many ways. This is as someone who loves the Lord, loves the body,

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loves the spirit saying, let's really look at this, evaluate it honestly, not to throw stones,

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but to help build up and edify and be righteous before the Lord.

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John Yeah. After what happened in 2020, I remember it seemed like every other day,

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there was a new prophetic word that Donald Trump was going to win a second term. A lot of people,

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I think, maybe added their own spin to it that he was going to win this term in 2020, which as we

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know historically, factually, that he did not win, he did not become the reelected president in two

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consecutive terms. Now that he's the president-elect, he will be inaugurated on January 20th,

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2025. There's a lot of people that said, well, the prophets didn't get it wrong.

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Then there's people that are saying, well, they still missed it somehow. Can you just help us

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understand what happened? I guess that's probably the best way to say it.

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Pentecostal Let's start with the current. Then I want to step all the way back to review 2020.

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Let's start with the current. No, it is absolutely wrong to say that the prophets,

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those that are true prophets, not really prophets, God knows, but we'll just say

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prophets generically, those who spoke as prophets, claimed to be prophets,

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it is absolutely wrong to say that the prophets got it right in 2020 because Trump was elected

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a second term. Let me explain why. Number one, there were those who were explicit, he will have

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eight consecutive years. I watched the videos, I tried to reach out to some of these people,

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they were explicit. When they said he's going to win, if you ask them, do you mean now or in the

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future, every one of them would have said now. We all know what we heard. If you warned everyone,

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a hurricane's coming, a hurricane's coming, a hurricane's coming, board up your house,

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oh, no, no, we meant a hurricane in six years. No one was hearing that. There were those who

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guaranteed Biden would not be inaugurated. I watched the videos. Again, I wasn't looking

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for them, people were sending me these clips. I watched them prophesy by name. I even reached

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out to them to try to interact without success. I watched them say after the results were given

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in favor of Joe Biden, I watched them say, no, it's going to be reversed. I watched the quotes,

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the blue states will become red states. It will be a December to remember. Quotes like that, one

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after another. They were saying the elections will be overturned, that Trump really won.

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They were prophesying that Trump truly was the president. He was the spiritual president,

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and the earthly president didn't matter. I had them telling me that there's going to be a coup.

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You watch, Biden's going to be in, but it's going to happen this month. No, no, this month. No,

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no, this month. No, no, that month. In point of fact, when they said that he will win,

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they meant in 2020. When the election results were announced against him, they said the elections

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were stolen. Some said, you see, God did really show us he would win, but he didn't show them that

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the elections would be stolen. That's like this, John, you desperately need a car. I said, John,

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the Lord showed me that a rich man is going to give you a Porsche. It's yours for life. He's

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going to give you a Porsche. It's going to be delivered to your house tomorrow. He does. He

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sends it over, but the Lord didn't show me it would be carjacked on the way and you'd never see it.

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That's complete utter nonsense. Again, we'll go back to 2020 and what happened then.

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Once the elections were announced in favor of Joe Biden, and I voted for Trump, I preferred his

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policies to those of President Biden. I was hoping the prophets were right, actually. I was hoping

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the elections would be overturned. I wrote something publicly and I said, listen,

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if in fact, God really showed you Trump would be reelected, and it's true, and the courts are going

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to overturn the elections, I commend you for your faith. It's incredible. God bless you for holding

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on. If in fact, you got it wrong, we're not going to throw you under the bus. Let's find out why you

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got it wrong, how you got it wrong, make adjustments to move forward and not repeat the mistakes. I

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said, but please don't do this one thing. I gave an anecdote from the church in which I was saved.

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I don't know if it was a true story or a joke story, but either way, the story was there was

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a prophetic brother ministering in a church and he had a word for a sister towards the front. He

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said, sister, the Lord showed me you're going on the mission field and he's sending you to China.

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She goes, oh, praise God, China. Then there's a brother in the back and he says, brother,

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the Lord showed me you're going on the mission field. He's sending you to India. India, praise

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the Lord. Well, they get in the car of the couple and they were doing different parts of the service

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and the wife says, the man of God said we're going on the mission field. He said, yes,

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he said it to me also. She said, we're going to China. He goes, no, no, the man of God said

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we're going to India. She said, no, China. He said, no, India. He said, there seems to be a

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discrepancy. They go back in the service, the guy is still there and they said, brother, you prophesied

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over my, because he didn't know they were husband and wife. He thought they were two separate people.

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You prophesied over my wife that she's going to be a missionary to go to China. You prophesied over

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me, I'm going to be a missionary to go to India. There seems to be a discrepancy. He said, oh, no,

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no, the Lord is calling you to Indo-China. I said, please, no Indo-China prophecies. Then the

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Indo-China prophecies began, maybe the notorious from someone with a fairly large Facebook following

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saying in April of 2021 that God gave him a vision of Donald Trump sitting on the throne in heaven,

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ruling with a golden scepter, and he was the real president. The fact is, people got it wrong.

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One last thing, Bill Hammond's network of 4,000 or so prophetic leaders, they issued no prophetic

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word about the presidency. From what Bill Hammond told me, it's not their policy to do that. He knew

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maybe one or two that claimed they heard a definite word that Trump would be reelected.

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Otherwise, they don't issue words like that, but across their network, I think they were all pro

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Trump, but they didn't get that word. Cindy Jacobs told me her network of maybe 70 seasoned prophetic

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leaders, that only a few claim to hear a word that Trump would be reelected, so they issued no word.

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But the ones that were the loudest and the most prominent on social media and TV, all to a person,

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said Trump would be reelected. They meant 2020. So you say, well, maybe they saw in the spirit 2024.

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Let's make that a possibility. That's why you don't announce times and dates, because prophets

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always get that wrong or commonly get it wrong. 1 Peter 1 tells us the Old Testament prophets,

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when God spoke to them about the sufferings of Jesus and the glory that would follow,

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God told them, no, no, this is not for you. This is for a future generation. Any of us that have

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heard the Lord prophetically know that timing is very difficult. So unless you have a very specific

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word from God with times and dates, often something starts and then stops and then picks up later on,

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or you think it's going to be now, but it's five years down the line. So that's why they could have

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said, we really believe that Trump is going to be a two term president, whether it's now or in four

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years. I mean, it seems unlikely, but that's what we believe the Lord is saying. That would have been

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one thing. They didn't say that. Yeah. And so here's one of the things that I really care about so many

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of the people that were hanging on every word, because we were just so hopeful that things would

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change and that we would see, you know, the, you know, I know that God hates unfair scales and ways

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and balances, you know, like God wants justice. And there was a, there was this cry for like,

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where is the justice where this isn't right? What, what happened? Why is God letting this happen?

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And so you'd hear this prophetic word and that prophetic word. And I know people in my own life

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that were just like hanging on to everything. And just like, you could see just how distraught

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over the last four years they were getting, because they're like, who do I trust? What

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prophets do I trust? And I would always just say, trust the word of God. Don't go to these people.

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But what, what kind of advice can we give for people that I don't want to say that they were,

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you know, necessarily thrown around by every wind of doctrine, but maybe they were.

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We put prophecy in a wrong place. We look to New Testament prophecy as some type of general

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prognostication. What are the prophets saying for this year, for that year kind of thing? And it's

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not to say that God won't speak certain things, but it's, it's to say that by and large, it's not

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the purpose of New Testament prophecy. Most of it is personal. Most of it is for edification,

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for direction, encouragement, sometimes for rebuke. You do have a prophecy in Acts 11 about a coming

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famine. And that was so that they could take a collection to help believers in Jerusalem.

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Otherwise you have Acts 21 prophecy about Paul's coming sufferings, if he goes to Jerusalem and

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things like that. But it's, it's not normally in terms of just, okay, who's going to win the Super

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Bowl? What's going to happen in the economy? It's, there's a purpose to it. There's a reason God

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gives prophetic words. Now it may be, I have no problem with the idea that in 2016, in the years

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leading up to that, God dropped the idea of Trump being elected president. God dropped the idea in

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a few prophetic people because it was so outlandish. We're used to it now. Second term president,

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right? He's been before us for years and years now. But when it first came up, it was completely

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laughable. The idea of Donald Trump being president was a complete joke. No one took it seriously

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back then, hardly anyone. The idea that he would be elected largely with the help of white

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evangelicals and would appoint justices to overturn Roe v. Wade, you might as well prophesy the man in

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the moon would do it. It's completely outlandish. So the first time around I could see that God

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planted the seed to get some of us thinking. Cause I remember I was on my knees praying. I didn't

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like Trump. I preferred the other Republican candidates, every one of them over Trump, I think.

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And I said, God, so and so had this words, like a couple of people I knew, I said, I don't

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say, am I missing something? Am I looking at things in the natural? Cause of all my opposition to

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Trump. So there could be a purpose for it. But the second time around, it was just like partisan

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politics. It was partisan politics prophecy. It was prophesying what we wanted to happen.

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It was now getting close to the seat of power, evangelicals surrounding Trump. It was like the

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court prophets that would tell the king what he wanted to hear. I know one season prophetic leader

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with the Lord now, he said he didn't hear God, but because everyone else did, he thought he had to

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join in and he thought I did hear God and he prophesied falsely. For Jeremiah Johnson,

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who I've been involved in his life as a mentor for some years, he got caught up in political spirit

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and he made mistakes. And when he humbled himself, when he repented the right way and took it on the

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chin, people were furious with him. No, you don't repent once you speak a word, you speak it. Now

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could be he got the timing off because he had these three things that would happen that Amy

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Coney Barrett would be appointed to the Supreme court, that the Dodgers was one of the world

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series and Trump would be reelected. So when the first two things happened in 2020, he thought,

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okay, Trump's going to be reelected, right? Well, it turns out the Dodgers just won the world

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series again. So he could have it right, but timing was off. But he said, yeah, he's going to

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timing was off. But he said, yeah, I got caught up in a political spirit. We've all made mistakes.

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If you minister long enough, you will, we're not to kill each other and throw each other in the

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bus. We don't have the view that somehow that you stole them and disqualify them for life.

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We don't believe that. But COVID happens, right? We did not have national warnings from prophets

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publicly that this was coming. That's the first thing. Then prophets began to say, it's going to

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diminish April 15th Passover. It's going to diminish of 2020. That should have been our warning.

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We're off. We're out of our lane. We're not functioning in accordance with God's purpose

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and plan for prophecy. So when you're out of your lane, you make all types of mistakes. It's like

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you make me the financial overseer of a bank. The bank will collapse in a day. I'm not a money

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person. You know, it's so it's the same thing. You're asking for trouble when you get out of the

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lane. And then when the church is looking to the prophets, what are the prophets saying,

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as opposed to what is God saying through his word? What is God saying in his relationship with me?

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What is God saying in my local fellowship of believers? No, with what are the prophets saying?

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Now we make a big mistake. Yeah, we make them soothsayers. We make them fortune tellers,

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as opposed to people that are speaking for God, that are bringing God's word to society. I mean,

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if you look through the Old Testament prophets, they're not necessarily just doing predictive.

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They're saying get back in order, get back, repent. Jonah would have been a false prophet

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because he said judgment is coming. You need to repent. And so he he they repented. And so

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God relented judgment did come, but not at the time that he thought that it would happen.

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Jeremiah 18, God lays out a principle whenever he speaks a word of blessing over country,

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if they then turn and sin, instead of bring judgment. If he speaks a word of judgment,

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if they repent, he'll bring blessing. So this was in accordance with his will. But yeah,

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it could have looked like Jeremiah was a false prophet then, but there was a divine principle

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at work. Here's the other thing that's important. Let's just think of this. A mother comes home

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and her 14 year old son and her 13 year old son are in the backyard having a fistfight.

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They got angry with each other about the same size. They're having a fistfight and now they're on

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the ground pounding each other. Does she say, I predict who will win? No, she says, boys, stop.

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What are you doing? Stop that right now. So I believe that true prophetic voices in 2020

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would not be predicting the outcome of the election, but speaking to the condition of

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the church, speaking to our deep divisions, speaking to the way we were looking to a

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political savior, speaking to our carnality, speaking to the fact that we were getting caught

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up at a political spirit. That would be what the Holy Spirit is speaking, not, and I predict who's

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going to win that the reason again, let me say this again, the reason for prophecy telling us

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what's going to come in advance. One thing could be to validate the messenger, right? Someone comes

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and says, the Lord showed me you're going through this miserably hard time, but in three months on

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this day, everything's going to turn for you. And it does. Now that person has credibility to you.

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When they come to you a year later and say, listen, listen, take this seriously in prayer.

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I really see a terrible test coming and here's how you can get ready. They have some credibility

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to you. So on a national level, a prophetic word of significance coming to pass, maybe when that

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person comes with a warning, we take it more seriously or it's preparation. Like Joseph,

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you're going to have seven good years and seven bad years. So you're going to have a time of great

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prosperity, but be wise, be good stewards because hard times are coming. Okay. So it's prophecy to

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prepare us or prophecy in the Old Testament about the coming of the Messiah to build faith.

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And so we can recognize him, but prophecy is not just abstract information and telling us what we

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want to know. So you have to say, what would the purpose have been of all these prophetic voices

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announcing Trump's victory in 2020? Really? Nothing. In other words, there's really nothing

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to it. You say, ah, but if the elections were stolen, okay, my faith was if they were stolen,

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then the courts would overturn it. I believe that God would work through the system.

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And in point of fact, let's say you're really pro-Trump, right? You really believe that he's

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the best man for the job. Well, if he came in in 2020, he would not have had the mandate that he

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had in 2024. He would not have so many Americans, whether you like him or not. This is a fact.

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Americans largely rejected the radical leftism of the Democrats. They rejected the craziness of some

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of the extremist agendas. That's what they did on a large scale. And because of that, there was a,

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and now with the Republican controlled Congress and with Trump having been in once before and

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learned from a lot of the things he did wrong and how much corruption was there within the system,

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he could actually do a much, much better job now than before. Right? So if the prophets got what

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they were expecting and we got what many of us voted for in 2020, it would have been much worse

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in terms of his effectiveness than now, where he could perhaps get a lot of good done and Americans

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could say, hey, you know, this kind of common sense approach to life and boys aren't girls and

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girls aren't boys, things like that. Maybe some positive come out of it. Here's the other thing.

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We were worked up into such a frenzy with Trump, only Trump can save America, right? Because he

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gutted the Republican platform on abortion, because he gutted the Republican platform

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on same sex issues and things like that and disappointed many pro-life leaders.

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I think there is a little less he's the savior kind of mentality. Yes, it seems providential that he's

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alive and then he's back in office. It seems the hand of God, whether you like him or not, it seems

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to be the hand of God in that regard. But maybe we've learned our lesson a little. Maybe there's

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a little less Trump is our savior kind of mentality. Maybe there's a little more recognition. Hey,

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he's a guy with mixed morals and other things, but get a lot of good done and carries a lot of

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baggage with him too. So let him do what he does. Let's pray for him. And let the church do its job.

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Let's get on with that. Maybe we've learned from our mistakes in 2020 and can get it better in 2024.

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That's my prayer. I hope so. And I pray so. I know my prayer going into the 2016 election was,

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I just had this thought of, wow, because normally what happens if a Republican gets in,

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the conservative church kind of just kind of sits back on their sits back and relaxes in the pews.

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And they're like, oh, we've got our guy in there. And they lay off the prayer. They lay off that.

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Whenever there's a Democrat in office and they're pushing these crazy agendas, then Christians kind

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of get together and pray more. And there's more of that. I thought for 2016, there was no, like,

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basically if Hillary would have gotten in, the church would have prayed more. If Trump would

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have gotten in, that there would have been such a wild card that they should have been praying more.

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Unfortunately, we saw some wins quickly. And then we sat back on our heels. And then 2020 happens.

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And I think what you just laid out, there was really a shifting or maybe a right sizing of

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our putting Trump on a pedestal, I think. And I think you just articulated that very, very well.

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So prayerfully, this time that we continue to pray for our leadership that God calls us to do.

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And we don't back off on that. We don't just say, oh, they'll take care of it. We as the body of

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Christ need to stand up and actually take our role as kings and priests in this country. I mean,

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the United States is a different place because we did not have a king that's a ruler so much as,

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but we are the ones that we're going to be responsible for how we vote and the people

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that we've chosen to represent us. And consider this. I'm going to give a really plain analogy.

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So I'm broadcasting here from a hotel in San Diego. When I leave the room, if I want the room cleaned,

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they'll come in and clean the room. Right? That's what they do. But they're not doing this broadcast

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for me because that's not your job. Laura, am I going to clean the room the way they would?

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Because that's not my job. So we just have to understand Trump has an important role.

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Vance has an important role. Congress has an important role. Right down to your local school

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board. They all have important roles, but that's not the role of the church. The role of the church

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is to vote righteously and to pray for elected officials and to do our best to hold them

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accountable. But then we have to do our job. It's not like it's all hand in hand. No, no.

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If I would rather have the worst president in our history in office with the church coming alive,

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with the fires of revival and becoming the church and bringing awakening to the nation,

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I would rather have that than the best president in our history and the church backslidden,

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compromised, worldly. Because we, not the president, not the Congress, not the Supreme Court,

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we are the light of the world. We are the salt of the earth. We, through Jesus and the Holy Spirit,

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can bring about change. So politics has tremendous importance. Think of the world as a place where

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you can't even get out of the church. Think of the implications of the Germans electing Adolf

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Hitler, the loss of tens of millions of lives in World War II, horrific suffering for so many.

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So for sure, politics is important, like I said, right down to the local school board. But politics

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is not the gospel. The book that I wrote, The Political Seduction of the Church, I really tried

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how we mistook politics for the gospel. Politics cannot change a human heart from bad to good.

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Politics cannot deliver someone from the power of sin and demons. Politics cannot bring someone

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from hell to heaven through the blood of the cross. So if we could, and there is no more powerful

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weapon than the weapon of prayer, because we go to Almighty God who rules over the universe, the

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entire world, the entire globe is not even a speck of sand in God's universe. He rules the world.

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The most effective thing we can do is pray and then turn to God in our own repentance, then

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evangelize, make disciples, and touch and serve a hurting world. We do that. Everything will work

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out just fine. Amen. And Dr. Brown, I think probably the best way to end this conversation

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is to ask you to pray for our nation moving forward and that the church would actually do

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what God's called us to do in our responsibility. And I did say I just wanted to go back to 2020.

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So the reason that we wrote prophetic standards, as Charismatics and Pentecostals,

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you have denominations, Assemblies of God, and different ones like that. But by and large,

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it's an independent movement, independent churches around the globe or different streams of things.

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And because of that, we don't have standard structures to help us through crises. If you're

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a Catholic, you've got all the canons of Catholic law and this and that. If you're a more recent

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denomination of Presbyterian or Lutheran, you still have your order. If you're in the Assemblies of

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God, you have orders to deal with things. But there's so much now just you could be an internet

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prophet. You just be out there. So Dr. Joe Matera and I were concerned that we didn't know, the Lord

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didn't show us who was going to win. But we were concerned that if the prophecies prove false,

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that it would be a crisis, that some believers would question God entirely. If we can't trust

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the prophets, who can we trust? Others would question the Holy Spirit. Others would say,

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you see, all this is bogus. The gifts are not for today. So what we wanted to do on the one hand was

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put a safety net out. If it happened to have a safety net where people could have a place to,

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oh, okay, it's not the end of the world. There's a place here. And then to say,

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let's affirm the importance of prophecy. Let's affirm prophetic ministry and prophetic gifts

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and prophetic people. Let's talk about the importance of it. But let's just establish

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guidelines for accountability and that we can all go by. One prophetic leader said, Mike,

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you don't want to do things where people are afraid to make one mistake because you have to

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stand out in faith when you prophesy, right? You have to believe and be free in the Spirit.

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On the other hand, it can't be anything goes. So we really tried to encourage, be positive. And

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yet say, here are standards, here are ways to deal with things. And all of us, one way or another,

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public, private, all of us will show up one way or another. Let's be merciful. Let's learn. And

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let's now grow and move forward. So with that, my joy to pray. Yes, please. Father, we love you

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and we honor you. And we ask you, Lord, to help us bring you joy, to help us bring you honor,

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to be people that you look down and say, that's my girl. That's my boy. I'm pleased with them.

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May we be a source of joy to you. And may we lift up the name of your son, Jesus Yeshua,

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in the midst of a dying, hurting world. Lord, we come to you with humility and brokenness,

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thanking you for your mercy and grace and say, Lord, speak through us, move through us, release

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the prophetic gifts in a way that will bring glory to your son, that will bring the fear of the Lord

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to the church, that will even touch a watching world. And Lord, we pray for President Trump.

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We pray for his cabinet. We pray for this new administration that you would superintend decisions

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for the good of America, for the good of the world, for the good of Israel. And we put our trust and

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hope in one place only, that is in you, your faithfulness, your goodness, in Jesus' name. Amen.

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Amen. Dr. Brown, thank you so much for taking the time to help us understand more about how we can

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trust the prophetic, trust that God does still speak today, even when there was confusion in the

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past and the clarity that you bring. You know, we just prayed, but this reminds me, I went through

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a crisis not long ago, one of the most intense spiritual attacks I've ever endured. And one of

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the things that got me through it was the most precise prophetic words from people who knew

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nothing of what was going on or very little of what was going on, or people who knew what was

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going on, getting identical scriptures at identical times. In my entire, almost 70 years now,

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I never experienced anything like it. Prophetic ministry when it's on is amazing, beautiful,

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and wonderful. And with that, for everyone that listens to podcasts on Charisma Media,

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we just released our Courage in the Line of Fire podcast. Courage in the Line of Fire. You can

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listen on Charisma Media. All right. Dr. Brown, thank you so much for joining us today.

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My joy. God bless.