Jason Paymer, producer of this incredible film, After Death.
It is great to have you here on Charisma News to talk about this film, which I had the chance
to see the screener of it.
And I got to say, the visuals are amazing, better than anything that I've seen when it
comes to anybody trying to recreate an afterlife experience.
But I got to tell you the storytelling, the music, and most importantly, the fact that
it drives people to have amazing conversations about real life and death situations.
Jason, it's great to be able to have you here on Charisma News to talk about this film.
Thanks for having me, John.
It's a gift to be here.
It's one thing to make a film.
It's an entirely more difficult thing to release and find an audience.
So without platforms like yours and voices like yours, it wouldn't be worth making anything.
So grateful that you had me.
Well, this film is absolutely worth making and I love talking about near-death experiences.
What happens after we say goodbye to this skin suit and our spirit goes on.
And I got to say, the people that you've chosen in this film to interview and to highlight
and kind of recreate their stories and their experience, that had to be quite a process
to figure out how do you tell this story.
Let's back up and say, why tell this story?
It was born out of loss and grief for our director, Stephen Gray.
He experienced a sudden and catastrophic loss of his brother-in-law.
He grew up having a faith, but when we get confronted with these moments of extreme grief
and death, that faith is tested and it was for Stephen.
So he went on a search, read 30 plus books of people that had done extensive research
into NDEs, people that have had them to understand, is there something more verifiable even than
just the scriptures that was given?
Is there some other corroboration that exists out there in the medical space specifically?
So he vetted a lot of the stories and ended up shooting a short film on Dale Black's story.
Dale Black is the commercial pilot who hit a tower at 135 miles an hour at 70 feet up.
Two of his co-pilots died on impact where he died and then came back.
His story is featured in the film, but Steve sent through the short and to any young filmmaker
out there listening, if you want to get the attention of a producer's show, don't tell.
And that's what Steve and Chris did.
They sent a short and it was like, oh, we immediately saw a unique point of view, a
distinct vision for the thing.
And we're like, these are filmmakers that we want to get behind.
One thing that I found as a common thread throughout all the people that you've interviewed
and it was done masterfully well.
It was the way the lighting and everything looks just amazing.
It's going to be phenomenal on the big screen.
So everybody needs to go see it on the big screen.
That's really important.
But I kept noticing this theme that everybody said that I didn't feel like I had died.
I felt like I was more awake.
I was alive and then I was more alive.
Everybody said that they stopped.
They were alive and then they were more alive.
How do you depict that on the screen?
Such a good question.
The way that they described the afterlife was both enticing and terrifying in terms
of the challenge presented as filmmakers.
We pretty quickly determined we didn't want to go with some classic images of heaven.
Felt like that would fall short.
So we went a little bit more ethereal and cosmic in terms of kind of the textures and
the way that we wanted to represent.
We wanted to elicit feelings of wonder and mystery and awe.
And so that was sort of the direction to the VFX team.
And we hired drone ops from around the world.
One was in Norway and got some of the prettiest places on earth.
And then with VFX, we combined these realities.
And in our estimation, this is what heaven will be like.
It's a renewing of the thing that we're experiencing here.
It's not a complete going away of the physical.
It's a maturing.
It's an enlightening of that space.
So we wanted to combine those elements.
And the VFX team did an amazing job.
Most of it's custom VFX throughout the whole film.
Very little is actually licensed at all.
So hats off to that team.
Hundreds and hundreds of VFX shots throughout the film.
So for a documentary, you know, I mean, it's very much genre bending.
And that's in large part due to the amount of VFX and then the cinematic recreations
that are a through line as well.
Yeah.
And these, the way that the stories are told, I love how they're kind of weaved in and out
of each other's stories.
And there's commonalities that you're seeing.
But you don't talk to just people that have had heaven experiences.
You also talk to people that have had hellish experiences and how their life has been changed
as well.
How did you, it's horrific and scary and spooky, but it's not like Halloween scary, if that's
what I'm trying to explain there.
Yeah.
Talk about trying to depict some of these darker themes.
Yeah.
So the 23% or so of reported NDEs are hellish experiences.
They think the number is higher, but it's unreported and that's probably for obvious
reasons, a lot of shame attached to why when I died, did I see that version of the afterlife
and not, you know, either nothing or a better version.
And Howard Storm in the film and Paulo Heda and Steve King all share from their hellish
experiences.
Howard in many ways, the emotional climax of the film as well.
Oh my gosh, yeah.
I mean, it was such a powerful interview that they shared so bravely and courageously.
And you know, the contrast between what they experienced and then this relentless cosmic
pursuit of love to rescue them out of this moment.
That tension and living in that contrast to me is where some of the most beautiful moments
in the film sit is in those places.
And you know, it was a challenge to depict that because it's so easy to go cheesy and
cliche and on the nose.
And we worked really, really hard at not doing that, make it more terrifying by just sort
of a less is more approach.
Music really supported it.
And you know, I mean, he didn't even in the interview, he probably stopped 30 percent
of the way in terms of being able to get the detail because it was so traumatic what he
actually experienced.
Howard, that is.
Yeah.
Now, your role as the producer, you're you're dealing with a lot of the pulling everything
together to make this happen and to help the help the director.
But you're you're involved with every aspect of it, which is which is, I'm sure, very hands
on.
But you know, how much got left on the cutting room floor that you're like, oh, man, I wish
we could just incorporate this because is there an after after death coming after this
film?
Because I feel like there's so much more that I want to see other stories that I've heard
that I want to see how your team would visualize this, which on the big screen is going to
be overwhelming.
Yeah, that's a great question.
Thanks for teeing it up to the at one point early on in the filmmaking process, we had
a vision for a series.
Each one of these stories are going to break off into their own episode.
That's still very much possible.
And depending on how successful opening weekend is and the run in theaters, it could set us
up to go forward and make a series on new stories, because it's just it's endless.
And the appetite for it is there.
I mean, it's a global question.
Where am I going to go when I die?
And so we have desire to to produce a series.
And there is a lot that got left on the cutting room floor.
I mean, we ended up shooting for a couple of weeks out of Mexico.
20th Century Fox built a lot for the making of the Titanic.
Master Commander was shot there.
And so that's where we shot all of the narrative recreations.
And we used most of that.
That was like we were going to pull everything we could together and then use as much of
that as possible.
A number of interviews didn't make the final cuts.
And you know, I can't even tell you how many terabytes we shot.
I mean, probably close to over 100 terabytes worth of footage.
So quite a bit is there untold in terms of the ongoing medical and scientific discoveries.
I mean, even since we locked the cut, there's more and more.
So we would like to lean into that through a series.
That's something where it's like the evidence continues to pile up.
Yeah.
So if you're interested in watching more of this and, you know, number one, go to the
big screen, go to the theaters, watch this film.
If you go to angel.com slash charisma, you'll be able to actually get your tickets there.
And that actually helps charisma as well.
Kids, you know, we're teaming up with them to help get this out, which is exciting.
And also, if this becomes a success as other things like Sound of Freedom and the Son of
God, Son of His only son.
Yeah.
So those things became tremendous successes.
If this becomes a tremendous success, which we believe that it will because it is so powerful,
there can be more and more of this type of production, which is going to be just incredible.
So I just want to encourage everybody go to angel.com slash charisma to get your tickets
and we can we can make this thing happen and spread it to family and friends because I
got to say, Jason, the conversations that are going to happen after this film is over,
that is going to be what is what is people what they take away from this film, because
you can't leave this film without wondering and questioning yourself.
Yeah, I think if I was to be most proud of one thing, it's that that incites a bigger
conversation and introspection of how do we live here in light of the hope that eternity
is on the other side.
This is one thing that came out so clearly through Mary Neal.
She's a spinal surgeon and died going off of a waterfall and being stuck under it for
it.
She was underwater for somewhere between 25 and 30 minutes.
And in her life review, she thought she saw how her life impacted 30 degrees out, not
30 total people, but 30 degrees out.
So John has a brother who has a daughter who has a friend who has a mom.
And she only knew degrees one and two, but she saw how her life had rippled out that
far.
And it was just this beautiful grace given to her in this moment to have perspective
that every choice we make here matters.
And I think for those that walk out of the film that maybe don't attach to a faith that
that take away our prayer is that it deeply resonates with every audience member.
It's like, hey, the way you interact with the person at the counter, the person to drive
through, your kid, your kid's teacher, all of these relationships and opportunities are
ground for exposing people to the eternal love that's chasing them.
And this is what the God had essentially told Howard in his life review was like, go back
and love.
And Howard's like, that's it?
And they're like, trust us.
That's the most difficult thing to do, but it'll be it'll be the thing that changes everything.
And so that's our hope for people coming out of the theater.
You know, Jason, I got to ask you some personal questions about love, because that is the
message that is all throughout this film.
How has Jason how has Jason actually started loving more because of this film?
And who was Jason before the production of this?
And who is Jason now compared to that?
Great question.
I think you have to ask my wife, my kids and my my partners to see if there's been a change.
I hope there has been.
I mean, I you know, Mary's I keep citing Mary's story, but it's just one that knowing that
there's a perspective that I don't have, but someday will come where I can actually get
a 360 degree view of reality.
So to get to your question, I was one more example of Mary's story.
She was abused as a young girl and in her life review, she saw how the abuser had been
abused.
And it didn't excuse the abuse, didn't excuse that moment of pain, but it gave her perspective
that hurt people tend to hurt people.
And so I can't I haven't had near death experience, but as much as I can live by characteristic
to those that have and just understand that there's one day going to be given to me a
perspective where I can see all these small moments today that feel small, but actually
ripple into eternity.
So for me, I'm trying to be more present in what I perceive to be the mundane, be more
active in the moments that I feel are just rote and traditional and understand that they
actually ripple into eternity.
And so, you know, if that's spending an extra three minutes on the ground playing dolls
with my daughter, or if it's, you know, some somebody, this is a classic example, somebody
cuts me off, I have a traditional response.
And maybe I don't lean into that traditional response.
Maybe I'm kind of because maybe they're rushing to get to the thing because they just got
the call that, you know, I mean, that's again, one of those moments where in the life review,
you get perspective of all this, where we don't have here in the three dimensions.
So I think I just got to keep looking forward and going up one day, I'm going to have access
to these moments.
And I think I'm going to I just want to be a look back and smile that I've treated these
moments well, and I was faithful with Stuart and them the well.
Yeah, I, I'm sorry, I forget the guys, the gentleman's name that died in France.
Howard, Howard, he went through his, his life review.
And he says that he, he just was disappointed in himself.
And then more so that he was, he knew that he had disappointed Jesus and the angels.
And he, you see this emotion in his face that can only come from a pure, pure place.
But my goodness, his life was changed.
And the things that happened afterwards, it was not all sunshine and roses.
You know, it was not easy for him.
And it's still not different, not easy for him.
But he was able to restore some things that had been stolen from him and relationship
wise.
And it's remarkable to see how when you get that perspective of somebody's of your own
life that you can, you have the opportunity to make some changes.
Well, that's one of the things that convinced me along the way is these people didn't have
a lot of incentive to come back and lie about what they experienced.
I mean, Howard's marriage disintegrated his relationship with his kid soured.
And that's the case with many people.
I mean, you have like Mary Neal, who is a high regard, highly regarded physician.
And to come back and say that she experienced all this stuff would easily categorize her
as a quack in many circles.
And so a lot of people did not have the incentive to come back.
People kind of try to attribute, well, they want to make a lot of money.
Well, Don Piper, who wrote 90 minutes and haven't waited 15 years to write the book.
So I think that there's a great-
He went through severe depression during the-
Severe depression.
Oh my goodness.
Yeah, severe depression.
Yeah, that deeply impacted his wife and kids.
So it's not to say that there aren't people that have hopped into this camp and claimed
things that are not true.
I think that would be foolish to say that doesn't exist.
And even these authors would say that they've known people to do that.
But the ones we chose in the film were incredibly highly vetted to only focus on the cases that
were corroborative and are able to be corroborated and had documentation.
Like Dale Black's story of hitting that tower is in the front of the LA Times when it happened
the next day.
Medical records.
We tried to get stories that were as- had as much detail surrounding it in perspective,
multiple perspectives.
Like in Don Piper's story, he was killed on that bridge being run over by an 18-wheeler.
We found the officer that was first on site.
I don't think he'd ever been interviewed before.
But we found him and he came out to the bridge and recounted how he showed up and it was
treated as a death.
And anyway, it's just stuff like that I think helps.
You know?
Yeah.
Wow.
You guys did a very thorough job depicting all of these things.
So you kind of feel like it almost blends or blurs the lines between documentary and
film, which I, you know, I hope that's what you're going for because that's what you did.
And my goodness.
Yeah, thanks for calling that out.
We you know, that's actually the thing that attracted Stephen Gray, our director, to Seifer
Studios was he saw our film, The Heart of Man, which came out in theaters in 2017.
And that was a genre genre bending film in its own way.
And for us, you know, the last five years, cinematic doc is or cinematic and doc can
become synonymous.
You know, Netflix has created an entire category.
Sure.
Excellent.
You know, unscripted stuff.
So we wanted to lean into that and kind of play with the genre a little bit.
So the narrative reenactments give us a place to cut to, to sort of help the audience sit
in these moments versus just coming from talking head to interesting B roll to talking head.
Yeah.
So yeah, hopefully it's entertaining.
I was just in a theater earlier this week in Utah with a couple hundred people.
And it's definitely I mean, it's why we made it.
We made it for the theater, you know, finished in Dolby Atmos and Dolby Color.
And our DP, Austin Straub did a fantastic job.
I mean, everybody just really leaned in a couple hundred people spent, you know, a couple
hundred people over the last five years touched this film to make it what it is.
So, wow.
So this has been this has been five years in the making.
So this is really a labor of love.
And we're recording this in October of 2023.
This film is going to be released to the public in just a few days.
But during that last five year span, you had to make this during the covid lockdowns and
everything that was going on.
What were some of the challenges that you guys had to overcome during that?
Yeah, I would not recommend making a film during a pandemic.
I mean, we had Stephen reached out.
Stephen Chris reached out to us in 2018 for the first time.
And then we tried to take it out to the town as a as a series.
And we didn't get a lot of bites on that.
So we kind of repackaged it into a feature.
That took some time.
And then we closed the investment early 2020, January of 2020 and started and started mapping
out production.
And then the world shut down.
Nobody was traveling.
We actually kept a lean crew flying all around the US through 2020 and 2021.
But we had to go to everybody.
A lot of these folks in the film are on the older end and our physicians work at hospitals
or colleges, universities, and they didn't want to travel.
Or it was very difficult to to to get anybody to move.
So we took a crew everywhere.
And then it was a matter of where do we do these reenactments?
And there was quite a few barriers and restrictions to shoot here in the US.
And we found a team through a relationship in Mexico that was like, this is world class
crew.
It's an incredible location.
We can do everything there.
And so we're able to pull that off.
And, you know, by God's grace, no one got sick.
But we did a ton of travel for that took us to 2022.
And then post on this, we had many versions of the film.
Many, many versions, because that thing you called out earlier, the blending or the moving
between interview subject and reenactment, it's not clear cut.
It's in many ways more art than science.
As you know, where emotionally do you do you want to go with this and how do you tell the
whole story without tipping your hat or forcing it to clearly in one direction?
So we edited it for a year and a half, almost two years of editing it.
So our editor, Sam Ben Monte from Bruton, just incredible.
And, you know, he we don't share the same faith either.
And that was OK.
And in fact, that's the case with many of the people in the project was we just want
to make the best film.
And it was like, what is the most compelling way to tell the story?
And at the end of the day, I think all of our fingerprints help help push it that way.
Yeah.
And you mentioned people having different faiths.
I remember the one the one gentleman grew up Buddhist and then he has this experience.
He kills himself in a horrific way.
And then God sends him back and he ends up becoming a chaplain, which is I mean, that's
a remarkable thing.
But he's he's able to take his experience and help other people that are going through
horrific things.
And in a way like he got a totally renewed purpose in life.
And I know any time that you're dealing with with life and death situations, it does give
you a new perspective.
You talked about how your perspective has changed a little bit during this film.
What are some other ways that you're now going to do other productions and other other projects?
And you're going to look at those.
How are you going to look forward?
And how is this going to change some of the things that you're planning on doing in the
future?
Well, I'll say this from been an independent filmmaking for about 15 years and I've never
been more excited about the opportunity that exists in a large part due to the disruption
of what Angel Studios has been doing in the marketplace.
You know, they they have a voting body called the Guild and the Guild is made up of around
100000 people and a subset of that Guild votes on the material.
So the exact team at Angel doesn't make decisions on content.
The Guild makes the decision.
So and they're fundamentally Angels, a tech company.
So everything is extremely iterative.
A, B tested everything, including content.
I mean, we had, I think, seven screenings with real live audiences all around the US
and theaters just to determine what is the most impactful way to do the end credits.
So everything is tested, tested, tested, which as a filmmaker, previously, I would raise
money, go underground for two or three years, come back out hoping that we'd find an audience
and there would be an opportunity to reach an audience.
Angel has said, like, let's let's start vetting and determining if there's an audience and
if there is an audience, we're going to lean in hard and we're going to double click into
that.
So it's very exciting to be part of with Angel.
I mean, we're you know, Sound of Freedom was a top 10 all time independent film release
and we're the next one up in theaters.
And I'll just say this way, they have similar goals for the doc.
You know, you don't take a doc to theaters generally.
You sure don't take it out wide.
You know, we're pushing 2300 screens at the point of this taping, which is a top five
all time doc release.
So it it feels very much like and I don't mean to be hyperbolic, but history in some
respect is being made as it relates to the mechanism of release and getting content out
to audiences that are there that are hungry for it.
I mean, we took this film around early to some streamers in studios who remain unnamed
and they were like, it's a beautiful film, but not large enough of an audience.
And to their credit, it's a doc.
So I could, you know, but Angel was like, well, let the guild, let the people tell you
if there's a large enough audience for it.
And there seems to be.
Yeah.
Well, this film is exciting.
My wife and I absolutely loved it.
And it brought up some really good conversation for people that already love Jesus.
That it brought up conversations of loved ones that have passed on and what they're
experiencing and how this will actually give you hope as you're watching this for people
that have gone on to be with the Lord and to know that they're in a much, much better
place.
And as you see these visuals and the descriptions, it's really going to help you kind of imagine
heaven in a in a new way, in a deeper way than you might have have thought about it
before.
And the the the high definition, four K amazing, amazing footage is going to really suck you
in.
And so I just really want to encourage everybody go to angel.com slash charisma to get your
tickets book early and even the pay it forward, help other people be able to see this film
because it's going to open up conversations that you then can talk about Jesus so that
they can know that they can get through those pearly gates whenever they experience their
after death.
Jason Paul, Jason is great to have you here on charisma news to talk about this amazing
film.
Thank you for making it and bringing attention to this.
Thanks for having me and getting helping us get the word out.
John, appreciate you and charisma.
Absolutely.
God bless you.
You too.
Be mystified by that question.
What happens after you die?
This really does show that there is life after death.