1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,440 And I thought I was experiencing ultimate reality. 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:05,360 I thought I was experiencing God. 3 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:09,240 Now I realize that was totally a deceptive experience 4 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:11,400 given to me by a satanic spirit 5 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:13,640 that was involved in my life at that time. 6 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:15,740 Pastor Mike Shreve, it's great to have you here 7 00:00:15,740 --> 00:00:16,940 on Charisma News. 8 00:00:16,940 --> 00:00:18,480 Now we've asked you to come on here 9 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:22,680 because there is a lot of occult practices, 10 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:27,680 witchcraft, new age things that are basically rising 11 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:32,500 to the top of culture during this time of year. 12 00:00:32,500 --> 00:00:35,300 And we wanna be able to bring a Christian perspective, 13 00:00:35,300 --> 00:00:38,020 a spirit-filled Christian perspective 14 00:00:38,020 --> 00:00:41,340 and to really shed some true light on these things. 15 00:00:41,340 --> 00:00:43,060 And you've got an amazing testimony 16 00:00:43,060 --> 00:00:47,820 of how God has brought you out from a new age, 17 00:00:47,820 --> 00:00:52,460 yoga, spiritist, mysticism type thing. 18 00:00:52,460 --> 00:00:55,300 I actually kind of forget all the stuff that you've told me, 19 00:00:55,300 --> 00:00:57,260 but we're gonna kind of dive into that here. 20 00:00:57,260 --> 00:01:02,260 And let you do some really pulling back the curtain 21 00:01:02,420 --> 00:01:05,500 on these practices that are made popular 22 00:01:05,500 --> 00:01:06,340 at this time of year. 23 00:01:06,340 --> 00:01:09,120 So Pastor Mike, thanks you for being here on Charisma News. 24 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:11,420 Oh, it's my privilege always to be with you. 25 00:01:11,420 --> 00:01:15,320 I appreciate my covenant connection with Charisma 26 00:01:15,320 --> 00:01:18,700 and our work together through the years. 27 00:01:18,700 --> 00:01:20,720 Yeah, and that's what we really wanna do 28 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:22,900 in this conversation is reveal the true light 29 00:01:22,900 --> 00:01:26,500 in a time of the year where darkness is celebrated. 30 00:01:26,500 --> 00:01:30,780 Pastor Mike, one of the things that has really intrigued me 31 00:01:30,780 --> 00:01:33,460 and it's kind of come up in the news 32 00:01:33,460 --> 00:01:37,860 or definitely on viral shorts and videos 33 00:01:37,860 --> 00:01:41,220 on the internet right now is this concept 34 00:01:41,220 --> 00:01:43,500 of astral projection. 35 00:01:43,500 --> 00:01:46,740 I actually heard a pastor friend of mine tell a story 36 00:01:46,740 --> 00:01:51,060 of a witch doctor had astral projected into his bedroom 37 00:01:51,060 --> 00:01:55,460 to cast some spells and it's a wild testimony there, 38 00:01:55,460 --> 00:02:00,180 but he unknowingly had allowed some connections 39 00:02:00,180 --> 00:02:03,860 with that witch doctor when he was on a mission trip. 40 00:02:03,860 --> 00:02:08,860 And so tell us a little bit about what astral projection is 41 00:02:10,020 --> 00:02:13,380 and what is the, if that's the counterfeit, 42 00:02:13,380 --> 00:02:14,540 what is the real? 43 00:02:16,260 --> 00:02:19,140 I believe that I experienced astral projection 44 00:02:19,140 --> 00:02:22,420 when I was a yoga teacher for universities. 45 00:02:22,420 --> 00:02:25,700 I, of course, have come out of all of that 46 00:02:25,700 --> 00:02:28,580 and renounced all of that, but back in 1970, 47 00:02:28,580 --> 00:02:31,940 I was running a yoga ashram in Tampa, Florida. 48 00:02:31,940 --> 00:02:34,760 I was spending 12 to 14 hours a day in meditation 49 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:37,460 and chanting mantras and doing things 50 00:02:37,460 --> 00:02:41,460 that were geared toward experiences of the supernatural, 51 00:02:41,460 --> 00:02:43,860 such as astral projection. 52 00:02:43,860 --> 00:02:47,420 And there were a couple of times I had the strong impression 53 00:02:47,420 --> 00:02:50,100 that I had actually left my body 54 00:02:50,100 --> 00:02:53,100 and was in a spiritual realm. 55 00:02:53,100 --> 00:02:57,140 And I have a graph in my book 56 00:02:57,140 --> 00:02:59,960 that I think illustrates what happened. 57 00:02:59,960 --> 00:03:02,660 I have a book called In Search of the True Light. 58 00:03:02,660 --> 00:03:04,840 I believe in three heavens. 59 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:09,340 The first heaven I interpret to be the atmosphere 60 00:03:09,340 --> 00:03:11,980 around the earth and the universe, 61 00:03:11,980 --> 00:03:15,560 the cosmos beyond the natural universe. 62 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,540 Then the third heaven is the manifest presence of God, 63 00:03:18,540 --> 00:03:22,100 which Paul also referred to as paradise. 64 00:03:22,100 --> 00:03:24,500 But in between the two heavens, 65 00:03:24,500 --> 00:03:26,140 you have a second heaven 66 00:03:26,140 --> 00:03:28,600 that is never addressed in scripture. 67 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,180 We don't really know what it is, 68 00:03:31,180 --> 00:03:34,280 and all religions promise some kind of experience 69 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:35,780 of the supernatural. 70 00:03:35,780 --> 00:03:40,460 And I believe at times through various practices, 71 00:03:40,460 --> 00:03:41,900 through various rituals, 72 00:03:41,900 --> 00:03:46,220 through various meditative processes, et cetera, 73 00:03:46,220 --> 00:03:49,340 they penetrate the second heaven 74 00:03:49,340 --> 00:03:54,060 because they have experiences of a spiritual realm 75 00:03:54,060 --> 00:03:56,380 that I know now as a Christian 76 00:03:56,380 --> 00:04:00,060 is dominated by angelic and satanic activity. 77 00:04:00,060 --> 00:04:03,340 I personally do not believe Satan reigns in hell. 78 00:04:03,340 --> 00:04:07,640 There's no scripture that depicts him as a king in hell, 79 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:10,420 directing demons from hell up to the earth, 80 00:04:10,420 --> 00:04:13,740 as you see in many Christian plays, of course. 81 00:04:13,740 --> 00:04:16,900 But he is called the prince of the power of the air. 82 00:04:16,900 --> 00:04:21,280 However, we don't see him jumping from one cloud 83 00:04:21,280 --> 00:04:23,060 to another up in the air. 84 00:04:23,060 --> 00:04:27,180 So it must be a concentric realm or a spiritual realm 85 00:04:27,180 --> 00:04:29,020 that is just a little bit higher 86 00:04:29,020 --> 00:04:32,940 than our physical perception of the atmosphere, the air. 87 00:04:32,940 --> 00:04:36,820 And I interpret that to mean the second heaven, 88 00:04:36,820 --> 00:04:40,660 where there's conflicts between angels 89 00:04:40,660 --> 00:04:44,300 and there's conflicts between demonic attacks 90 00:04:44,300 --> 00:04:49,300 and angelic responses over regions, over individuals. 91 00:04:49,340 --> 00:04:54,340 And I believe when I had my experiences during meditation 92 00:04:54,540 --> 00:04:57,640 that possibly, that's the explanation, 93 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:01,000 possibly I penetrated that realm, 94 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:05,940 but it's inevitable if you try to move 95 00:05:05,940 --> 00:05:08,900 into the supernatural through seances, 96 00:05:08,900 --> 00:05:10,900 through spiritualism practices, 97 00:05:10,900 --> 00:05:13,380 through meditation practices, et cetera, 98 00:05:13,380 --> 00:05:15,200 you're going to be deceived 99 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:18,460 because that is a realm dominated by Satan 100 00:05:18,460 --> 00:05:21,740 and a cloud of demonic influence all around the world. 101 00:05:21,740 --> 00:05:25,740 So they are very adept at giving false experiences 102 00:05:25,740 --> 00:05:26,700 of the supernatural. 103 00:05:26,700 --> 00:05:31,700 One time I went into this brilliant, intense white light 104 00:05:32,300 --> 00:05:36,860 that felt like a force, just a force, an impersonal force. 105 00:05:36,860 --> 00:05:40,180 And I thought I was experiencing ultimate reality. 106 00:05:40,180 --> 00:05:42,120 I thought I was experiencing God. 107 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:45,980 Now I realize that was totally a deceptive experience 108 00:05:45,980 --> 00:05:48,180 given to me by a satanic spirit 109 00:05:48,180 --> 00:05:50,580 that was involved in my life at that time. 110 00:05:50,580 --> 00:05:55,580 So I'm not saying people can have legitimate experiences, 111 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:59,140 but they're inevitably going to have 112 00:05:59,140 --> 00:06:02,340 satanically inspired deceptive experiences 113 00:06:02,340 --> 00:06:04,320 if they attempt to go a different way. 114 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:07,260 Because Jesus said, I am the door. 115 00:06:07,260 --> 00:06:09,820 And by me, if any man enter any will be saved. 116 00:06:09,820 --> 00:06:12,660 And he also said, I am the way, the truth and the life. 117 00:06:12,660 --> 00:06:15,460 And no one comes to the Father but by me. 118 00:06:15,460 --> 00:06:19,980 So if you attempt any other way, you're a thief and a robber. 119 00:06:19,980 --> 00:06:24,140 Well, I was not intentionally trying to steal 120 00:06:24,140 --> 00:06:27,540 something spiritually that was not rightfully mine, 121 00:06:27,540 --> 00:06:30,660 but whether it was intentional or not is irrelevant 122 00:06:30,660 --> 00:06:35,660 because I was trying to encounter a realm 123 00:06:35,660 --> 00:06:39,780 that I had no spiritual or legal right to enter 124 00:06:39,780 --> 00:06:43,900 as an unregenerated child of Adam. 125 00:06:44,900 --> 00:06:48,340 But the thing about it is when you're born again, 126 00:06:48,340 --> 00:06:52,500 instead of you penetrating, trying or attempting 127 00:06:52,500 --> 00:06:54,300 to penetrate the spiritual world, 128 00:06:54,300 --> 00:06:56,740 the third heaven and the God of the third heaven 129 00:06:56,740 --> 00:06:59,980 bridges that gap and comes down into your heart. 130 00:06:59,980 --> 00:07:03,420 And so all religions are man's effort to reach God, 131 00:07:03,420 --> 00:07:06,540 but Jesus is God's effort to reach man. 132 00:07:06,540 --> 00:07:09,540 And then you have a true experience of heaven on earth. 133 00:07:09,540 --> 00:07:13,340 In fact, the Bible said we become seated with Christ 134 00:07:13,340 --> 00:07:15,180 together in heavenly places. 135 00:07:15,180 --> 00:07:17,740 I hope that's a suitable explanation. 136 00:07:17,740 --> 00:07:19,020 Amen, amen, it does. 137 00:07:19,020 --> 00:07:22,860 And I've got a follow-up question for you. 138 00:07:22,860 --> 00:07:25,260 And I think this one is gonna really help people, 139 00:07:25,260 --> 00:07:26,340 especially this time of year, 140 00:07:26,340 --> 00:07:30,340 because there's a lot of things that look like fun 141 00:07:30,340 --> 00:07:35,020 in this Halloween season where there's ghouls and goblins 142 00:07:35,020 --> 00:07:39,040 and people were playing around and dabbling, I guess, 143 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:42,200 with the occult and witchcraft and things like that. 144 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,740 My question for you is about the deception, okay? 145 00:07:45,740 --> 00:07:49,380 Because the Bible talks about a great deception. 146 00:07:49,380 --> 00:07:53,140 And you said that while you were in this experience, 147 00:07:53,140 --> 00:07:56,500 you were deceived, but that was like, 148 00:07:56,500 --> 00:07:58,540 it was a demonic thing that looked good, 149 00:07:58,540 --> 00:08:00,260 that felt good at the time. 150 00:08:00,260 --> 00:08:02,620 But now that you're on the other side of that 151 00:08:02,620 --> 00:08:06,620 and you know who Jesus is and you've had redemption 152 00:08:06,620 --> 00:08:08,980 and Jesus has become a Lord of your life, 153 00:08:08,980 --> 00:08:12,980 the savior of your life, the forgiver of your past 154 00:08:12,980 --> 00:08:14,540 and the leader of your future, 155 00:08:15,500 --> 00:08:18,300 now you can look at that and say, I was deceived. 156 00:08:18,300 --> 00:08:21,580 There's a lot of people that are deceived right now, 157 00:08:21,580 --> 00:08:22,980 especially with these things. 158 00:08:22,980 --> 00:08:26,280 How can you approach somebody and help them 159 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:28,580 that they think that they're just having fun, 160 00:08:28,580 --> 00:08:31,340 they think that they're having a fun experience 161 00:08:31,340 --> 00:08:33,500 that feels good at the moment? 162 00:08:33,500 --> 00:08:36,860 How can you help them to get past the deception 163 00:08:36,860 --> 00:08:39,140 and know that this was, that's a demonic thing 164 00:08:39,140 --> 00:08:41,900 and we need to have the focus on the real? 165 00:08:41,900 --> 00:08:44,020 Well, actually, one of the basic things 166 00:08:44,020 --> 00:08:46,220 I always try to establish 167 00:08:46,220 --> 00:08:49,140 when I'm talking to a New Ager or a Hindu, 168 00:08:49,140 --> 00:08:53,580 it revolves around the idea of truth. 169 00:08:53,580 --> 00:08:55,660 Is truth subjective or objective? 170 00:08:55,660 --> 00:09:00,260 The whole generation we're a part of loves to come up 171 00:09:00,260 --> 00:09:04,980 with this supposed axiom, this pithy wise statement 172 00:09:04,980 --> 00:09:07,820 that you can have your truth and I can have my truth 173 00:09:07,820 --> 00:09:09,580 and we can both be right. 174 00:09:09,580 --> 00:09:11,460 Well, I believe that's both theologically 175 00:09:11,460 --> 00:09:16,460 and logically absurd because there's no way truth 176 00:09:16,460 --> 00:09:21,460 can just be personally developed or personally, 177 00:09:23,500 --> 00:09:26,100 how can I say it, personally created, 178 00:09:26,100 --> 00:09:28,440 that you create your own truth. 179 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:33,180 And one of the ways I address quite often to prove that 180 00:09:33,180 --> 00:09:36,540 is the difference in opinion between the nature 181 00:09:36,540 --> 00:09:40,580 of the solar system by Ptolemy in the second century 182 00:09:40,580 --> 00:09:43,580 or Copernicus about a thousand years later. 183 00:09:43,580 --> 00:09:46,580 Ptolemy taught that the earth was a center and the sun 184 00:09:46,580 --> 00:09:48,380 revolved around the earth. 185 00:09:48,380 --> 00:09:51,180 Copernicus came along and said, no, the sun is a center 186 00:09:51,180 --> 00:09:52,680 and the earth revolves around the sun. 187 00:09:52,680 --> 00:09:55,740 If they were contemporaries, they never could have sat 188 00:09:55,740 --> 00:09:57,700 in the same room and discuss their beliefs 189 00:09:57,700 --> 00:10:00,300 and Copernicus would not have said to Ptolemy, 190 00:10:00,300 --> 00:10:02,340 you can have your truth and I can have my truth 191 00:10:02,340 --> 00:10:04,060 and we can both be right. 192 00:10:04,060 --> 00:10:06,800 One is right at the expense of the other being wrong 193 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:10,160 and there's no other response to that. 194 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:12,340 Well, in like manner, Eastern religions 195 00:10:12,340 --> 00:10:17,340 and New Age spirituality teach that the presence of God 196 00:10:17,540 --> 00:10:22,540 or an essence of divinity is already within every human being. 197 00:10:22,540 --> 00:10:25,280 So to find God, you look within. 198 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:26,860 On the opposite end of the pole, 199 00:10:26,860 --> 00:10:29,620 Christianity teaches that God is external. 200 00:10:29,620 --> 00:10:33,620 He is outside of the physical universe and outside of us, 201 00:10:33,620 --> 00:10:38,540 our sins have separated us from God, Isaiah 59 verse two says. 202 00:10:38,540 --> 00:10:43,460 And so in order to come back into a relationship with God, 203 00:10:43,460 --> 00:10:46,440 he enters into us from with that. 204 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:50,220 Those two scenarios are so contradictory, 205 00:10:50,220 --> 00:10:51,820 there's no way they can both be true. 206 00:10:51,820 --> 00:10:55,440 Either God is already in me or God is outside of me 207 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:59,300 and will enter into me, but both cannot be right. 208 00:10:59,300 --> 00:11:02,960 And I contend when I share with New Agers 209 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:06,980 about my experience that I found out when I invited 210 00:11:06,980 --> 00:11:09,420 the Lord Jesus Christ into my heart 211 00:11:09,420 --> 00:11:13,380 that the biblical approach was the correct approach. 212 00:11:13,380 --> 00:11:16,220 It worked, I had an experience of the true God 213 00:11:16,220 --> 00:11:18,180 for the first time in my life. 214 00:11:18,180 --> 00:11:22,420 And I was convinced by that encounter 215 00:11:22,420 --> 00:11:24,600 that the biblical way is the right way. 216 00:11:26,020 --> 00:11:29,220 So whenever there's people that are dabbling 217 00:11:29,220 --> 00:11:31,740 with the occult practices and things like that, 218 00:11:31,740 --> 00:11:35,780 what could we do as friends and family 219 00:11:35,780 --> 00:11:37,920 are playing around with this stuff? 220 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:41,020 Other than just saying, no, don't do that, that's wrong. 221 00:11:42,460 --> 00:11:45,340 People aren't gonna necessarily understand that. 222 00:11:45,340 --> 00:11:48,620 How can we help people kind of come out of that? 223 00:11:48,620 --> 00:11:51,320 Well, there's a whole array of subjects 224 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:52,940 that need to be addressed. 225 00:11:52,940 --> 00:11:57,500 And John, I have a website, thetrulight.net, 226 00:11:57,500 --> 00:12:02,300 that's T-H-E-T-R-U-E-L-I-G-H-T, thetrulight.net. 227 00:12:02,300 --> 00:12:06,100 And I address many, many subjects, especially 228 00:12:06,100 --> 00:12:10,660 in the section on podcasts, the archives of the podcast, 229 00:12:10,660 --> 00:12:13,580 and a section called writings where I have articles 230 00:12:13,580 --> 00:12:17,180 on subjects like, well, let me take one for instance, 231 00:12:17,180 --> 00:12:19,180 chanting mantras. 232 00:12:19,180 --> 00:12:21,300 Chanting mantras is something people think 233 00:12:21,300 --> 00:12:24,460 is totally harmless and very helpful 234 00:12:24,460 --> 00:12:26,300 and brings peace of mind. 235 00:12:26,300 --> 00:12:30,740 And some people think it can cause manifestations 236 00:12:30,740 --> 00:12:33,500 of what you desire in your life. 237 00:12:33,500 --> 00:12:38,500 But I do a teaching on what chanting mantras really is 238 00:12:39,380 --> 00:12:41,660 and how Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount, 239 00:12:41,660 --> 00:12:43,900 Matthew chapter six, verse seven, 240 00:12:43,900 --> 00:12:46,300 actually pinpointed that and said, 241 00:12:46,300 --> 00:12:51,300 "'Use not vain repetitions like the heathen do, 242 00:12:51,300 --> 00:12:52,900 "'for they believe that they'll be heard 243 00:12:52,900 --> 00:12:54,860 "'for their much speaking.'" 244 00:12:54,860 --> 00:12:59,020 Why did he warn against it when he was teaching 245 00:12:59,020 --> 00:13:01,780 the disciples how to effectively pray? 246 00:13:01,780 --> 00:13:05,620 Because the idea of chanting mantras is based on the idea 247 00:13:05,620 --> 00:13:09,420 that God is an impersonal force on the highest level. 248 00:13:09,420 --> 00:13:12,580 And if that were true, then chanting a mantra 249 00:13:12,580 --> 00:13:15,860 would make sense because it's like a computer code 250 00:13:15,860 --> 00:13:18,420 that you enter into your computer 251 00:13:18,420 --> 00:13:20,300 to bring forth the desired results. 252 00:13:20,300 --> 00:13:24,340 But God is not a machine and God is not a computer 253 00:13:24,340 --> 00:13:27,820 that you manipulate and control with the right incantation. 254 00:13:27,820 --> 00:13:32,420 If I was trying to communicate with you right now, 255 00:13:32,420 --> 00:13:35,420 and I repeated the same phrase 100 times 256 00:13:35,420 --> 00:13:38,260 in a monotone voice, you would say, 257 00:13:38,260 --> 00:13:40,620 we can't use this interview. 258 00:13:40,620 --> 00:13:44,900 There's no relevance to what you're doing. 259 00:13:44,900 --> 00:13:46,540 Because you don't communicate 260 00:13:46,540 --> 00:13:49,020 with a fellow human being that way, 261 00:13:49,020 --> 00:13:50,780 there's a flow of conversation 262 00:13:50,780 --> 00:13:54,140 that involves a creative expression of words 263 00:13:54,140 --> 00:13:58,220 that address certain ideas in a logical fashion. 264 00:13:58,220 --> 00:14:00,620 Well, if God is a person, 265 00:14:00,620 --> 00:14:02,220 we should approach him the same way. 266 00:14:02,220 --> 00:14:05,620 There should be a creative flow of praise and worship 267 00:14:05,620 --> 00:14:08,380 and petition to him that makes sense, 268 00:14:08,380 --> 00:14:11,700 not just a repetition of some monotonous sound 269 00:14:11,700 --> 00:14:14,700 to try and manipulate or control a power 270 00:14:14,700 --> 00:14:18,020 or a force into manifestation. 271 00:14:18,020 --> 00:14:22,980 Star Wars popularized the idea of God just being a force. 272 00:14:22,980 --> 00:14:26,620 And a lot of people who are into the occult believe that. 273 00:14:26,620 --> 00:14:31,620 They believe that God is really subordinate to man, 274 00:14:32,780 --> 00:14:36,620 that it's a power, a force that we are in control of 275 00:14:36,620 --> 00:14:41,220 and that we manipulate or control by certain occult practices. 276 00:14:41,220 --> 00:14:43,820 And that's just absolutely an insult to him. 277 00:14:43,820 --> 00:14:45,580 That's why in Deuteronomy 18, 278 00:14:45,580 --> 00:14:49,580 God forbade the involvement of his people 279 00:14:49,580 --> 00:14:52,380 in occult practices like contacting the dead, 280 00:14:52,380 --> 00:14:54,980 like witchcraft and so forth. 281 00:14:54,980 --> 00:14:55,820 Yeah. 282 00:14:55,820 --> 00:14:56,660 You know, Pastor Mike, 283 00:14:56,660 --> 00:14:59,100 I wanna give people hope right now too. 284 00:14:59,100 --> 00:15:02,380 And I'm gonna ask you to share your story 285 00:15:02,380 --> 00:15:06,900 of how you came out of that life and you met Jesus. 286 00:15:06,900 --> 00:15:08,540 And just a little bit of time 287 00:15:08,540 --> 00:15:10,700 that we have left for this segment, 288 00:15:10,700 --> 00:15:13,900 I just wanna let you share the gospel 289 00:15:13,900 --> 00:15:15,420 through your testimony. 290 00:15:15,420 --> 00:15:16,580 Oh, I love sharing it. 291 00:15:16,580 --> 00:15:18,340 I never grow tired of sharing it 292 00:15:18,340 --> 00:15:21,020 and I've been sharing it over 50 years. 293 00:15:21,020 --> 00:15:25,860 It was divinely orchestrated in a very remarkable way. 294 00:15:25,860 --> 00:15:29,500 I, as I mentioned, was teaching yoga at four universities 295 00:15:29,500 --> 00:15:32,620 and running a yoga ashram in Tampa, Florida. 296 00:15:32,620 --> 00:15:37,140 And I had about 300 students who considered me their guru. 297 00:15:37,140 --> 00:15:39,420 And the word guru comes from two roots, 298 00:15:39,420 --> 00:15:43,580 goo and rue that means out of darkness into light. 299 00:15:43,580 --> 00:15:46,140 But the problem was I wasn't in the light yet 300 00:15:46,140 --> 00:15:48,580 so I couldn't lead anyone else there. 301 00:15:48,580 --> 00:15:53,580 And I had left college to study under an Indian guru myself 302 00:15:53,940 --> 00:15:56,820 and then I became one of his subordinate teachers. 303 00:15:56,820 --> 00:16:00,300 And a friend of mine had left college at the same time 304 00:16:00,300 --> 00:16:04,020 for the same purpose, but studied under a different guru. 305 00:16:04,020 --> 00:16:06,480 And he writes me a letter 306 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,540 with this very surprising announcement. 307 00:16:09,540 --> 00:16:12,740 He tells me that he walked in a church, 308 00:16:12,740 --> 00:16:16,280 heard an audible voice say, Jesus is the only way. 309 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,540 And he was quote unquote, born again, 310 00:16:18,540 --> 00:16:21,260 which was completely new to me. 311 00:16:21,260 --> 00:16:23,340 I'd never heard that terminology before 312 00:16:23,340 --> 00:16:25,300 having been raised Catholic. 313 00:16:25,300 --> 00:16:27,720 And so it intrigued me. 314 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:31,200 And he talked about how the spirit of God 315 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,820 had entered into him from without. 316 00:16:33,820 --> 00:16:36,980 And so that immediately grabbed my attention. 317 00:16:36,980 --> 00:16:39,020 I thought that's a different approach altogether. 318 00:16:39,020 --> 00:16:44,020 So I pondered that letter that I received for days. 319 00:16:44,380 --> 00:16:47,500 Now simultaneously, something else was happening. 320 00:16:47,500 --> 00:16:49,740 The Tampa Tribune newspaper 321 00:16:49,740 --> 00:16:52,160 had done a half page article on me, 322 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:56,100 which was a huge amount of advertisement for free 323 00:16:56,100 --> 00:16:58,940 in an area where, I don't know, 324 00:16:58,940 --> 00:17:01,500 a couple of million people probably got that paper. 325 00:17:01,500 --> 00:17:03,020 So I thought for sure, 326 00:17:03,020 --> 00:17:06,860 my classes were going to mushroom in attendance. 327 00:17:06,860 --> 00:17:09,740 Instead, God used that article 328 00:17:09,740 --> 00:17:13,260 to alert a spirit-filled prayer group in Tampa, Florida 329 00:17:13,260 --> 00:17:15,100 to begin praying for me. 330 00:17:15,100 --> 00:17:17,180 And they cut the article out of the paper, 331 00:17:17,180 --> 00:17:18,620 pinned it to their prayer board, 332 00:17:18,620 --> 00:17:20,620 and assigned somebody to be fasting 333 00:17:20,620 --> 00:17:23,840 and praying for me every hour of every day. 334 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:25,660 They had a 24-hour prayer chain. 335 00:17:25,660 --> 00:17:30,100 So I'm being soaked with intercession, in a sense, 336 00:17:30,100 --> 00:17:32,180 for almost a month. 337 00:17:32,180 --> 00:17:34,780 Now I get this letter from Larry, 338 00:17:34,780 --> 00:17:38,540 and I'm already the object of intercessory prayer. 339 00:17:38,540 --> 00:17:41,020 And God just responded to that 340 00:17:41,020 --> 00:17:44,940 and used that letter to trigger a desire in my heart. 341 00:17:44,940 --> 00:17:48,220 So one day I just dedicated the day to Jesus. 342 00:17:48,220 --> 00:17:51,580 And instead of doing any of my yoga practices, 343 00:17:51,580 --> 00:17:54,600 my normal asanas, which are physical exercises, 344 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,700 or pranayama, which are breathing exercises, 345 00:17:57,700 --> 00:18:00,920 I decided I wasn't gonna chant mantras, 346 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:02,060 I wasn't gonna meditate. 347 00:18:02,060 --> 00:18:04,040 All I was going to do was read the Bible 348 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,260 and pray to Jesus all day long 349 00:18:06,260 --> 00:18:09,300 that if He was the truth, He would give me a sign. 350 00:18:09,300 --> 00:18:11,660 And that afternoon I was hitchhiking 351 00:18:11,660 --> 00:18:13,640 to go teach a yoga class. 352 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:15,580 And one of the members of the prayer group 353 00:18:15,580 --> 00:18:20,100 who just happened to be a former yoga student himself 354 00:18:20,100 --> 00:18:23,560 who had gone deeper than me into the experience 355 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:25,020 was two miles away. 356 00:18:25,020 --> 00:18:28,540 And he was part of that prayer group praying for me. 357 00:18:28,540 --> 00:18:30,580 And he's walking into a laundromat 358 00:18:30,580 --> 00:18:32,360 with an armful of dirty clothes, 359 00:18:32,360 --> 00:18:33,900 and God speaks to his heart and says, 360 00:18:33,900 --> 00:18:35,940 "'Get back in your van and start driving. 361 00:18:35,940 --> 00:18:38,140 "'I've got a job for you to do.'" 362 00:18:38,140 --> 00:18:40,840 That's all the instructions God gave him. 363 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:42,800 So he got behind the wheel obediently 364 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:46,340 and started driving and turned whenever he felt an impulse 365 00:18:46,340 --> 00:18:49,940 and saw me hitchhiking about two miles down the road 366 00:18:49,940 --> 00:18:52,320 and felt compelled to pick me up. 367 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:55,220 He pulled over and I'm still praying, John. 368 00:18:55,220 --> 00:18:57,980 I'm still saying, Jesus, if you're the answer, 369 00:18:57,980 --> 00:19:00,060 show me today, give me a sign. 370 00:19:00,060 --> 00:19:03,060 I opened the door to the van and looked in 371 00:19:03,060 --> 00:19:06,420 and my heart jumps because on the ceiling of the van 372 00:19:06,420 --> 00:19:07,860 is a picture of Jesus. 373 00:19:07,860 --> 00:19:11,420 And I knew this is my son. 374 00:19:11,420 --> 00:19:13,900 And a few minutes later, he began witnessing to me 375 00:19:13,900 --> 00:19:16,380 and within about a half hour, 376 00:19:16,380 --> 00:19:19,700 I was on my knees in the back of the van with him, 377 00:19:19,700 --> 00:19:23,820 praying, seeking God, asking Jesus for this experience 378 00:19:23,820 --> 00:19:25,160 of being born again. 379 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:27,540 And the Catholics teach that it happens 380 00:19:27,540 --> 00:19:29,740 when a child is sprinkled at birth. 381 00:19:29,740 --> 00:19:31,560 That didn't happen to me. 382 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:36,460 It happened when I consciously invited Jesus into my heart 383 00:19:36,460 --> 00:19:40,460 where I repented of my sins and claimed his blood, 384 00:19:40,460 --> 00:19:44,460 washing my soul clean from sin and told him I believe 385 00:19:44,460 --> 00:19:48,060 he had risen from the dead and that he was Lord of my life. 386 00:19:48,060 --> 00:19:49,420 That changed everything. 387 00:19:49,420 --> 00:19:52,220 I went back to my classes that week, 388 00:19:52,220 --> 00:19:54,340 told them that from that point forward, 389 00:19:54,340 --> 00:19:56,420 they were no longer going to be conducted, 390 00:19:56,420 --> 00:19:58,860 that I had become a follower of Jesus. 391 00:19:58,860 --> 00:20:00,380 They were quite shocked. 392 00:20:00,380 --> 00:20:02,780 Most of them became Christians also. 393 00:20:02,780 --> 00:20:05,940 And I shut down my ashram within a day or two. 394 00:20:05,940 --> 00:20:10,020 I just backed out of my rental agreement 395 00:20:10,020 --> 00:20:13,660 and shut it down and no longer functioned in that realm 396 00:20:13,660 --> 00:20:17,860 because I don't believe in quote unquote Christian yoga. 397 00:20:17,860 --> 00:20:20,340 I believe that's an oxymoron. 398 00:20:20,340 --> 00:20:23,460 You cannot blend the two worldviews. 399 00:20:23,460 --> 00:20:27,580 It's like trying to put the Ark of the Covenant 400 00:20:27,580 --> 00:20:32,580 in the same building as Dagon, the false god. 401 00:20:32,900 --> 00:20:35,440 You can't mix two worldviews like that. 402 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:40,200 Yeah, wow, so you had a tremendous, 403 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,760 tremendous testimony of God had his, 404 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:45,960 the hounds of heaven were after you for sure 405 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,160 by that prayer and intercession group. 406 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,760 And the thing that you thought was gonna bring you 407 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:54,640 fame and fortune as a yogi, which I'm sure 408 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,880 that's actually counterintuitive to what the yogi practices. 409 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:01,960 But you were thinking that that was gonna grow, 410 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,200 but God actually used that as an opportunity 411 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:08,480 for you to get saved and then lead more people to Christ. 412 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,800 And now you're a pastor and you've got these great podcasts. 413 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:16,040 You've got books that are really helping people 414 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:20,280 get past the deception points in so many different ways 415 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:25,280 because you have a great just perspective of how 416 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:28,920 and how to explain these things to people that, 417 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,800 let's face it, there's so many other religions 418 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:36,400 and strange beliefs out there that it's very good 419 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:38,800 to have somebody like yourself that can help Christians 420 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,520 understand that in a safe way for somebody 421 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:43,560 that has been studied. 422 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:45,840 And Pastor Mike, we just thank you so much 423 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,200 for being a part of the Charisma family 424 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:49,800 and being able to share with this. 425 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,160 And I know we're gonna have another conversation, 426 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,200 another point to talk about your book, 427 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:57,760 the beliefs of the Catholic Church. 428 00:21:57,760 --> 00:21:59,280 You coming out of the Catholic Church 429 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:02,560 is a big part of your testimony as well, 430 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:06,400 but really you have a love for the Catholics. 431 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,280 And so we're gonna talk about that in another conversation. 432 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:10,520 But Pastor Mike, thank you so much 433 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:12,880 for being here on Charisma News. 434 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:14,320 May I mention one last thing? 435 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:15,800 Yes, sir. 436 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,840 I did not go into a lot of detail about my testimony, 437 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,920 but I have a free book, a free book available 438 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:25,160 called The Highest Adventure Encountering God. 439 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,440 And it's a mini book about 64 pages 440 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,680 that's available on thetrulight.net. 441 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:33,840 And it's there in 12 languages. 442 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:38,120 In fact, it's Spanish, Portuguese, Chinese, Japanese. 443 00:22:38,120 --> 00:22:42,240 And we've had thousands upon thousands of people worldwide 444 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:43,400 download that book, 445 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:45,720 The Highest Adventure Encountering God. 446 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,320 And I would really appreciate it if people came 447 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:50,240 and took advantage of that free book 448 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,080 and shared it with people who are searching 449 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:55,160 through New Age spirituality. 450 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:56,000 Absolutely. 451 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,520 I think for that will be in the description of this video 452 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:00,320 and we'll put it up on the screen as well 453 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:01,280 as we were talking about it. 454 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:03,640 So Pastor Mike, thank you so much for being here with us 455 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:05,080 today on Charisma News. 456 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,120 And we look forward to our next conversation. 457 00:23:08,120 --> 00:23:27,120 Thank you very much and God bless you, John.