They say you can't be a deeply present mother
and a powerhouse CEO without losing your mind.
We're told we have to choose. But what if the
hustle is actually the very thing holding you
back from having both? I want to do something
that I feel purposeful, that I'm not just a mom,
and I want to monetize it. People think about
the chill philosophy. It's like you just go with
the flow, man, just whatever the day brings.
But f*** that. Because then nothing gets done.
Being chill doesn't mean we'll just relax. Anything
goes. I have boundaries in place. I start working
from nine o 'clock and I time block that. And
then three, so that's when it's family time.
The fact that we felt guilt or we feel guilty
means that we're a good mom. Because if not,
you won't feel that guilt. Pricing is really
subjective. It's how much you value yourself.
And if you're still spending time doing the $50
work, how are you ever going to meet that revenue
figure? Where are they right now? And where do
they want to be? So I have two daughters. Do
I want them to be an all -in mom, give up their
ambition for the kids? No. I want them to chase
their ambition still. So I am just modelling
the behaviour that I want her to model. They
say you can't be a deeply present mother and
a powerhouse CEO without losing your mind. We're
told we have to choose. But what if the hustle
is actually the very thing holding you back from
having both? Today, we're sitting down with a
woman who is completely rewriting the narrative
on ambition in midlife, Michelle Han. She has
built a six -figure empire, she is raising three
kids, and she has the audacity to call herself
the chill mom. Now. I know chill and boss are
two words that do not belong in the same sentence.
We spend all of our lives looking after everybody
else, thinking we need to grind to prove our
worth. But Michelle has cracked the code on something
we all crave, how to build a business that serves
your life rather than a life that serves your
business. Before we dive into Michelle's formula,
I have a small favor to ask. If you are enjoying
these episodes and finding value in the community
that we're building, please take a second, hit
that subscribe button. It's a free way to support
the show. It helps reach more women just like
you, and it ensures you never miss an episode.
Hi, Michelle. Thank you for joining us today.
Hello. Thanks for having me. Oh, we're so excited
to have this conversation with you. And we want
to know everything. We want to know, how did...
You mastermind this whole plan of yours. It wasn't
very much a mastermind. If you told me, I was
like, gonna get my notes out. I'd be like, right,
how do we do? How do we build a six -figure business?
Oh, we all started this way, isn't it? No, it
wasn't like that at all. If you ask me, how long
was this? 13, 14 years ago that I'll be doing
this, I would say you're crazy. Yeah. Right.
So I really started from being a mommy blogger
at home. because my first child, she was then
around six months old. I was feeling bored at
home. I was like, okay, what can I do? I want
to do something that I feel purposeful, that
I'm not just a mom, right? And I want to monetize
it. I was very clear about that. I didn't just
want to start a blog because it's a hobby too,
right? No, I want to make money out of that.
So really... Long story short, the blog turned
into a maternity concierge business. About three
years later, MomBoss Academy came along. And
then now we have Ampli360. And then currently
I'm building an AI agent agency. Wow. Maternity
concierge. So we help expecting parents plan
the arrival of their babies. What might now be
kind of postpartum doula type thing? Not so much.
Doula would be one of the service that we can
get you. So it'd be sort of which doctor would
you go to? How do you set up your nursery? What
do you need? What don't you need? It's like a
one -stop shop for new parents. Exactly. Amazing.
Now, what you said there was you started blogging
because... you were bored and you wanted something
to do because you didn't have purpose. And I
feel like a lot of women can relate to that.
You know, you get into that sort of timeframe
where you'll have a baby and your whole life,
you know, you've worked in a particular career
or you studied and you've done stuff. And then
all of a sudden you've got a baby and you're
like, who am I now? And I think that's such a
big question that women really struggle with.
So how easy was it for you to, you know, step
away from? Not from your child, because that's
definitely not what you did. But, you know, like
try to figure out who you were, who you wanted
to be during that time. I didn't feel like I
was stepping away. Okay. I was just looking for
something to do. Something to do. Yeah, something
beyond caring for her. Who am I, right? Like
you say, like, okay, who am I? Am I just a mom?
Can I be more than that? And at that, during
that season, I was all into being a good mom.
I was learning. you know, all about pregnancy,
first time mom. And then, you know, the second
baby came along, more about that, right? Trying
to navigate early motherhood. And I thought,
okay, and this is back in 2013, people were still
reading blogs. And I thought, okay, maybe that's
something I could do there. So then I really
just learned how to become a blogger, how to
drive traffic and, you know, dive deep into all
this internet marketing. And how do I turn it
into a real business? Was your background in
business? I have run a soup and salad bar business
prior to becoming a mom. Okay. Yeah, so I was
running a business. So I was running that business
for about two years before the baby came along.
I mean, I could have continued the business,
but then, you know, being in F &B in Singapore
is really hard, like manpower and things like
that. But as soon as the baby came along, I realized...
I can't be in that business anymore. So eventually
I let go of that. And there I was, a stay -at
-home mom. And that's all I was all of a sudden.
There's nothing else to think about beyond what
should I cook? Yeah. What activity should I prepare
for her? And I thought, okay, maybe I should
find some sort of outlet. And that's where. Did
you feel there was this pull or push type feeling
between being a mom and then running the business
once the business started taking off? Definitely.
I think once it started taking off, definitely
there's always this, oh, you know, there's this
business and then, you know, your child require
you, whatever it is, right? But the fun thing,
I guess, for me was I've always been running
it from home. Yeah, since blog till today, right?
14 years later, it's always been at home. So
I have that flexibility to say. Oh, I can't.
And I've always been very upfront with my client
that I'm running this from home. I'm a mom. And
that's all I need is a window to meet you. Or
can we do it over the phone? I love that. I love
that you put the boundaries in place. You said
that you only have this time frame. You're working
from home. You're going to do it remotely. And
I think that's something that a lot of people
struggle with. Absolutely. I would say especially.
Women who turn a side gig into a business, they
feel that part of that professionalization, as
it were, is giving up all of your time. Right.
Like that's how I become a real business is maybe
I get a brick and mortar. Right. So or maybe
I, you know, start doing a nine to five as opposed
to whatever time block that you set off. And
in fact, I feel like that is actually counterintuitive
to the way that moms would want to grow a business.
Would you agree? Yeah, you're right. You're absolutely
right. A lot of people have this perception that
when you start a business, then you have to spend
all your time working in that business. Whereas
a business is supposed to work for you. Yes.
So you chill. Okay, what you just described,
work all that time. That's not chill, mom. That's
busy mom. So how did you become the chill mom?
How did that become your brand? It's really the
name of my blog. Okay. It's called the chill
mom from that day on. Wow. I didn't know what
to call it. And then my husband said, Just call
it the chill mom. You've always been, you know,
I'm a fairly kind person. Even throughout the
pregnancy. And this is just who I am. That is
so cool. You should know. I don't know if you
even know this. I don't. I mean, on that day,
esteemed physician husband, Dr. Tyler, he has
a tattoo on his biceps. First tattoo he got.
Terminally chill. I've definitely not seen it
because every time I've seen Tyler, he's in his
scrunchies. Yeah, so you've got a chill doc next
to a chill doc. All right, cool. And so this
is obviously interesting because, like I mentioned
in the start, chill and boss don't seem to work.
They feel like they're on the opposite ends of
the spectrum. So how did you make that your thing?
because I was trying to force two worlds together,
didn't I, right? Going from the chill mom and
starting my blog and then helping women plan
the arrival of the babies. And then my readers
were, or followers on Instagram, Instagram started
to grow. And they were like, hey, Michelle, I
was following you since you were this mom, working
from home, and now you're talking about business.
Can you teach me? Wow. So this is back in 2017.
And I'm like, who am I to teach people, right?
When you get enough people asking you and you
go, hmm, maybe there's a market there. So then
I started consulting. And then that's where I'm
like, okay, so what should I call this new business,
right? So it's mom boss, because mom boss. So
now it's kind of like, okay, but I can't throw
away the chill mom, right? Because that's been
my brand. So that's how I kind of like merge
it together. Answering your question, how does
it go together? I think being chill doesn't mean
we're just relaxed, anything goes. I think how
I'm able to be chill as a mom and as a boss is
because also what you mentioned earlier, I have
boundaries in place. So my kids or my husband
were very clear about what our expectations are
for the kids and for the family, what the house
rules. So therefore it's very... In a way, it's
quite black and white. If the kid's done something
untoward, we all know. So there isn't a, you
know, a reason to get frustrated or worry or
anything because there's this sort of like, you
know, system in place. See, and that's the secret,
okay? Can I be honest? Like, that doesn't sound
chill. Meaning, right? I think when people think
about the chill philosophy, right? Chill kind
of lady. It's like you just go with the flow,
man, just whatever the day brings. But fuck that,
because then nothing gets done. Yeah. So there
is no mom boss if you are conventionally chill.
But it sounds to me like you set up boundaries,
systems, structure, that then you can invite
more chillness into your days because the system
runs itself. Absolutely. Can you tell us about
that? That's chill. Yeah, that's... For us to
be chill. Yeah. Not chill and handling everything.
Like I'm not a permissive mom at all. You're
not a surfer dude, you know, like riding the
waves. But you, like Amanda said, the systems
are there. So tell us about those. Yeah. How
do you set them? In the early days for my family,
we have, so my husband's name is, surname is
Gan. So we have the Gan family values. So we
sat down and we said, okay, what sort of values
do we want for our family? So we wrote that down
and we actually had it printed out in this, I
don't know what, A2 kind of poster size. And
it's hung in the house. Still to this day. Still
to this day. So my kids, everyone knows. It's
the mission statement. Correct. For your family
comes first. Health and, you know, always learning,
always taking 100 % ownership. And yeah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah. And you and your husband
put that together before you even had kids or
when? I think probably after we had our first
kid. Yeah, we decided that, hmm, let's do that.
So we know, right, what our expectations are.
So we're always together. We're always backing
each other up. It's not like, oh, okay, daddy
say this, the mummy say that. Kids try it. Yeah,
they do. Oh, daddy say like this. They check
the AT poster. What other systems have you then
managed to put into place then? So obviously
you've got, you know, your boundaries at home,
the values, so your kids know what needs to be
done. And then you've obviously got your work
stuff, which is, you know, how your clients and
your business perspectives know what needs to
be done. Do you have any other systems in place
to help you lead that chill life? Anything for
you? I think, yeah, beyond that, you know, family
values, there's time management, right, for all
of us. You probably know that. For me, because
I'm working from home, so it's very clear when
is my working hour. So, of course, at different
age, it will be slightly different. But now that
my kids are in school during the day, so in the
morning, I wake up. I'm actually a full -time
stay -at -home mom. I do everything. So I wake
up at 6 .30 and I start cooking, making lunchbox
for them to bring to school. And then we walk
them to school. We walk home. And then it's kind
of like, you know, get ready for the day. And
I start working in my home office from technically
nine o 'clock. And I time block that. So nine
to 12, I block that calendar. Nobody can book
a call with me. And then from 12 to three, or
then maybe, okay, from one o 'clock, I open up
my calendar. One to three, clients can book calls
with me. So that's when I get a lot of calls
and sales call, whatever, what have you. And
then three, usually around 3, 3 .30, kids are
back from home. So that's when it's family time.
I love that. And you can get a full, I don't
want to say full day, obviously, but you can
get the full generative power of your work in
five hours. That's what you're telling us. Yes.
The five -hour secret. Yeah, pretty much. I never
thought of it that way. Unreal. And I think a
lot of women need to hear this because they think
that if I'm not working 12 hours a day, if I'm
not hustling... Yeah, my side hustle's got to
be all of my time. Yeah, this is... This is the
secret, guys. Stop what you're doing. Everyone,
listen to this. And I think, you know, you hit
something that we talk about time and again in
the studio, which is you have three resources,
your time, your money, your energy. Absolutely.
And if you do not protect them, they will be
sucked out of you, especially for moms, right?
Because everyone's demanding those three things
of us. So I think you've figured out the way
to thwart that. Amazing. This is the perfect
time to talk about our sponsored segment, which
is Fuel Your 40s. Now, we are sponsored by The
Meat Club. And one of the things that they promote
is a subscription service to help manage your
time, your effort. And that is brilliant when
it comes to putting systems in place. And they
have a question for you. And they're asking,
when life is full and energy is limited, what
does proper nourishment look like to you? on
busy weeks for you and your family? I think in
terms of nutrition, we eat in five days of the
week. I say we eat in, we'll try to eat healthy.
We'll try to eat non -processed food. And then
the rest of the day, we'll just, yeah, enjoy
ourselves. That's perfect. Yeah. The eat at home
solution. It's such a big thing. And I think
a lot of people forget that actually you don't
need to be, you know, like just eating salads
and eating. you know, like boring stuff, you
can still eat enjoyable things. But if it's cooked
at home, you know what's going in there. Yeah,
just making sure there's enough vegetables and
enough meat and not deep frying stuff. I think
it's just a built -in habit day in, day out.
And yeah, so you can let go some days. I love
it. Totally love it. And you can also get $20
off your first subscription order from The Meat
Club by using code TFF20 through their website.
Now, sometimes being a mum comes with mum guilt.
Have you ever experienced that during, while
you've been trying to build your business? Or
even now? I feel like now you've got a good structure
in place. But, you know, while you were building
it, did you experience that mum guilt? Oh, yeah,
definitely. I think we all navigate through this,
right? It would be unrealistic if I said I've
never felt mum guilt. Because I think in the
early days, right, I started this business, or
rather, yeah, I started working from home because
I wanted time with them. But as the business
grow, it requires more of me. And I thought,
what's going on? And I'm not actually spending
time with them or I'm taking all this time, you
know, working on my business and my being selfish.
And of course, there were days that those thoughts
came to me, but I suppose over time. I decided
that, no, this is what I want for myself. And
my main priority is still them. And they know
that they can come to me at any time to really
need me. It's not like I lock my office door.
You can always walk in if you want to. One realization
that made me stop feeling guilty was that the
fact that we felt guilt or we feel guilty means
that we're a good mom. Because if not, you won't
feel that guilt. Oh, I love that. I never so
believe that. It's so true, but I never thought
of it like that. There's like memes with the
message, but basically, if you're thinking about
your parenting choices, you are already doing
a great job. The fact that you're even mindful
about it. Because the reality is, obviously,
there's so many folks, you know, that are just
going through the motions to some extent. Just
thinking about it, just wanting to become better.
And that's good enough, right? All of us is just
trying to do our best. I was recently listening
to a podcast, not about mothering at all, by
the way, but the author who happened to be a
mothering author, Nahal Roosh. She was saying
how when she was writing her book called The
Power Pause, and it's literally about being a
stay -at -home mom. So it's literally about taking
time off from a career to be a stay -at -home
mom. So that's like what that book is about.
Even then. She felt guilt about doing it, right?
Because she felt guilt, number one, about taking
the break itself, which is what she writes about.
But then as the book took off, this is like a
major New York Times bestseller, came out last
year. As the book blew up, she then felt guilty
about going on the book tour and doing the press,
doing the media circuit. And it's like, we get
hit in both directions as moms. Guilty if you
do, guilty if you don't. So damn it. Do the best
you can. Absolutely. So if a new mum has come
to you and said, look, I love being a parent.
I love what I do. I love my baby, but I want
something more. What sort of advice or tips would
you give them when it comes to sort of getting
started in business? I think if you say you want
more, the first question I'll ask you is, where
does that question come from? Is it really? Like,
have you always wanted to start a business? Or
is it something that you just watch on Instagram
and see someone start a business and feel like
you need one too? Yeah. Right? Is it coming from
you? Because honestly, not everyone's suitable
for business. Yeah. Say it again. It's hard work.
Hard work. It's hard work. Hardest thing I've
ever done, other than motherhood. Yeah. Yes.
But I think motherhood... It's a good training
ground for entrepreneurs. Oh, if you can become
a mom, you can become a business owner. Right,
let's compare. Tell us, how does that work? What
are the transferable skills? Transferable skills,
setting directions, right? You need overall visions,
how you like, you know, your children to grow
up to be. Yes. Same thing for your business.
The wall. And then they need a lot of you in
the early days. Everything comes from you. And
as they grow, you should let go. The problem
with a lot of people is that they don't let go,
even in business. That's why they end up doing
it all. It's a startups that don't scale. It's
a startups that don't scale because you can't
let go of it. Yeah. I love this analogy. And
you know what? It's funny because people do talk
about their business as their baby. It shouldn't
be your baby. You should let go at some point.
Yes. When is the perfect time to let go? I think
when you are able to generate, consistent income.
That's when you know that, oh, maybe I can systemize
part of the task and let someone else do it.
Or these days, let AI do it, right? Subscribe,
spend some money, set up systems so that you
could run parts of it without you. Can we talk
about how no one prepares you for how your skin
changes in your 40s? Honestly, one day it's fine.
The next it's dull, dry and showing every single
emotion you've ever felt. That's why I've actually
been loving Love Indus. Their skincare actually
feels like it's doing something. It's not just
sitting on your face and looking sticky. It blends
South Asian ingredients like ashwagandha and
vegan ghee with proper New York dermatology tech.
It's luxurious, but also very results driven.
Their line limiter is especially good if you're
starting, like me, to notice lip or laugh lines.
People compare it to Botox, which I would happily
take after all those needles in my face. And
our listeners get the highest discount they offer,
21 % off with code TFF at LovingDisc .com. Plus,
they ship free to Singapore, which seems like
a very rare little treat. And yes, we earn commission
when you use our code. So don't forget to support
the show by using code TFF. So there are people
who will be like, right, I'm not making enough
money. So I can't spend the money. How, you know,
that's like a chicken and egg situation. Like,
how do you go about doing it? What would you
recommend in that situation? Yeah, so again,
right, come back to, it comes back to, are you
running a business or are you just self -employed?
Right? Do you want to be in a business where
you constantly have to work to earn that income?
If you're happy with that, it's fine, right?
You just don't want a boss. But a lot of people
think that, oh, you know, a business is one that
I'm constantly, you know, if I stop doing anything,
then there's no income coming in. But if you
do want it to become a business, you need to
invest time. You need to invest. If you don't
have time, you have to invest money. There's,
you know, there's no way around that. Yeah. It
reminds me of the thesis of the book and I can't
remember the author. So apologies, Your Money
or Your Life. Have you read this? No. Basically,
you just hit the thesis on the head, which is
when do you know, you know, that your business
is successful and it's like, or when do you know
when you have enough money, right? It's like,
When you stop trading time for money, when it's
not a one -to -one, when it's not everything,
like either you're there or the business doesn't
make money. That's when you are running a business
that's successful. So of course there is this
transition, you know, middle period where it's
a bit messy. You're still in there, but you're
still setting up the system, right? But that
has to happen. But a lot of time people just
can't let go. And they stay in that, it's just
me, me, me. And because I don't have the resources,
I don't have the time, I don't have the money.
And they just stay in the business without having
maybe some time out to work on the business.
There's this businessman called Naval Ravikant.
And he basically says, you need to put a price
on your time. And if you can pay someone to do
it for that price or less. then do it because,
you know, you could be out there doing something
else more efficient. Yes. And if you are, you
know, like if you're wasting time, whereas you
could pay somebody to do it for, I don't know,
10, 50, whatever, 100, whatever it is, you know,
go use your time in a more efficient way. And
I think that's really important because I think
people don't put a price on their time. Especially
moms. Yes. Especially moms because motherhood
is unproductive, right? Motherhood is secret
labor. So how could we put a price on it? Because
society doesn't. Yeah. I mean, it feels like,
it feels like your time is, is never ending.
It's free, but it's not. And that's the thing.
And I think it's really important that, you know,
if you are starting a business or you are working
and you want to scale and there's something you
want to do, you understand what is the value
of your time. And that's something that a lot
of people are missing out on. Yeah. And that's
this exercise that I teach my student to do is
that, okay. How much do you want to earn in a
year? So one year from now, how much do you want
to earn? Let's say revenue -wise. So let's say
it's $250 ,000, right? So you take that number
and you divide it by 2040. That is if you're
working eight hours a day, five days a week for
52 weeks a year. Wow, holidays in that first
year. Yeah, just be realistic. Of course, you
want to take a month off every now and then.
But let's just say you work to the max. That's
your hourly rate. Wow. So let's say, I don't
know, I can't do it in my head. Can you do it?
So let's say it's like, I don't know, so let's
say it's 500 per hour. Then you should start
acting like it right now. That every hour you
work is generated that income. And if you're
still spending time doing the $50 work, how are
you ever going to meet that revenue figure? Wow.
That is such a powerful analogy. And I think
a lot of people, again, they're not doing it.
They're not going to be looking at that calculation.
Yeah. And I'll also even offer that I think somewhere
that I got trapped in my own career was I'm a
fitness and nutrition coach. And I started off
as a personal trainer like many of us do. I got
caught in those training hours, right? Working
with one client for one hour on exercise. And
the reality is this, and sorry, trainers, this
might sound harsh, but like any high school athlete
could probably put someone through a workout
just as good as a certified personal trainer,
right? Like it's not rocket science, literally
teaching exercise. Once I had two master's degrees,
was developing a business, had Harvard certifications.
I was like, why the F? Am I trading my valuable
hours that I've studied for personal training
dollars? It's ridiculous. But women do this all
the time, I feel. We kind of forget about, you
know, the experience, the credentials, whatever
it may be that we have, and we accept working
for something that we're comfortable with. How
do you get women past that, you know, to kind
of get out of the comfort zone of the self -employment
and really take the leap for business? I think
for us... needs to come with the one, you know,
why you want that, like figuring out your big
why and all of that. And once, yeah, a lot of
people, once they start their business and they
usually undercharge because they're like, you
know, who am I to charge so much, right? Who
would pay me this much? And just really afraid
about, you know, pricing and the values and things
like that. Oh, I'm new. Even though they have,
like you say, all these credentials or these
background and skills that they have. So usually
I would say, because pricing is really subjective.
Yeah. Right? It's how much you value yourself.
And if you don't see it within yourself to charge
that much, no one, your clients isn't going to
suddenly say, hey. I want to pay you more. That's
true. You deserve this much. So for you to gain
confidence, to name the price, I think it takes
a bit of guts. So to start with, of course, when
you first start a new business, you want to maybe
just practice a little, you're really probably
not that good, right? Reality. Yeah, reality.
You don't know, you know, maybe just proper way
to put things. You know, maybe you do have the
skills, you do have the knowledge, it's how you
handle a client and things like that, right?
Thinness. So start with what you're comfortable
with. And then the next time a client comes,
just try, maybe just ask for 10 % more, 10 %
more. Because once you get to a certain number,
you're not going to go back. Yeah, correct. And
you just get, you know, you build confidence
as you grow. Yeah. Yeah. And you normalize that.
You know, I think doing it in increments. gives
you several opportunities to practice. Yeah.
And that's helpful. And another way is depending
on how much you want to give or want to charge,
you need to make sure that the value of what
you're selling is 10x more. Yes. So then the
mentality going into a sales conversation isn't...
oh my God, is she going to, you know, will she
balk if I name this price? It's more of like,
I'm giving you a good deal here. Is your loss
not mine? I don't know. I can't explain it, but
it's that feeling that, what do you call that?
You guys are probably, you know, way more articulate
than I am. You're so right. And again, the personal
training example is a perfect one here, where
it's like the value you're delivering is... life
long in our case life metabolic health this is
power and control and knowledge over your own
body that will take you to the grave that's 10x
the price of this one hour in console real talk
right yeah it's a hundred days a thousand x yeah
um but being able to articulate your deliverables
in a service -based business challenging how
did you put your your messaging into words like
even maternity concierge right what i asked you
about earlier like I didn't know what it was.
So how would I perceive the value of it, right?
So how did you communicate your value in messaging?
This is usually how I teach my client, right?
Positioning isn't just about how you can do it
better. It's really understanding your target
audience. Where are they right now? And where
do they want to be? And the further the gap,
the more you can charge. I love that. Just position
yourself as that vehicle that you take them from
point A to point B. This is really, I mean, this
is like incredible. Because it kind of gives
us an understanding of where we need to go and
what we need to do when it comes to like developing
a business and sort of getting further. And my
son just did an entrepreneurship CCA at school.
So he's 10 years old, by the way. And they had
a whole presentation. They had to pitch a product
and, you know, and then basically deliver this
presentation. Then one group was going to win.
And the group that actually won with these two
girls, they were slightly older. And they developed
this idea where they were like, we're going to
be delivering food via drones to people who need
it. You know, if they're on the beach, if they're
hiking or whatever it is, because, you know,
they might not have restaurants or anything nearby.
And I was like, that's brilliant. They, you know,
they're seeing that these people might be hungry
and they want food, but how do they get it? We
deliver it via a drone. And, you know, I thought
it was a great concept. And then my son's idea,
which was really cute, he was like, oh, you know,
we're going to be doing AI. But what he did during...
His whole time when they were practicing, you
know, their pitch and stuff was developing the
product. What he didn't do was trying to figure
out who would need to use this product. And it's,
you know, solving the problem. So looking at
what is the problem that my client, my customer,
my patient has and can I solve it? And I think
that's where people go wrong because they spend
all this time on making this amazing product.
Thinking this is amazing. Everyone wants this.
But is it solving a problem for somebody who
needs it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because at the end
of the day, it's not about you. It's about your
market. Your market needs to be willing to, you
know, pull out the wallet and pay you. And talking
about entrepreneurship for kids. So recently,
my youngest son as well, he's 10 last year. Last
year, he was nine. And they had a market day.
So they can set up, you know, little stores and
sell whatever they want. So I'm like, okay. For
weeks I was asking. I'm like, this is so exciting,
right? This is my domain. Ask me anything, right?
Well, what are you selling? I don't know. I don't
know. And then a day before. Typical boy, right?
He had his friend over and they were searching
for rocks right around the house, like outside,
just random from the street, rocks. I'm like,
what are you doing? We're doing blind bags. Oh,
so blind bags. Do you know like kids these days,
they like those blind boxes, LOL. Yeah, so you
don't know what's going to come inside. What's
going to come inside. So he's literally pulling,
putting rocks into his blind bags and saying
that, I'm like, no one's going to buy this. How
much did he make? Guess what? That's the surprise.
He came home the next day. I'm like, so did you
say any blind box or blind bags? Sold out, mummy.
Of course. Immediately. Wow. Yeah, he sold out
immediately. And I'm like, okay. It's his market,
girl. That's right. I didn't know the market.
He does. This is ridiculous. It's a bag of rocks.
His market's like, it's the aura of surprise,
right? And it's something they're used to. Yes,
they know what it is. They're like, oh, okay,
I'm willing to pay, you know, $2 for that. And
they're like, oh, fine bags. And I say, oh, and
everyone's happy with that. Rocks, right? He
said, oh, I got one refund. But still, one refund.
And I said, so what do you do with it? I resold
it to another person. I love it. And one of the
most proud of is like, okay. Apparently, he's
one of the first to sell out. And then I'm like,
okay, so what do you do the rest of the time?
So I went around seeing what other people need.
And then I just helped them. And I tried for
that. So you went into service days now. He is
your son. I mean, my follow up question was going
to be, what have you learned from your kids that
you've been able to apply in your business? Right.
So what have they taught you about the process
of entrepreneurship, about the process of boundaries,
whatever it may be? That's a really good question.
I've never thought of it that way. I think maybe
patience. Yeah, that's a big one. With kids,
like really patience, really sitting down and
understanding. Maybe sometimes, like with my
client especially, right, we might want to push
them as hard as we could. You've got the potential.
Why don't you go for it? What can you see for
yourself? So it's very similar to talking to
my kids, encouraging them. And I find that it's
really, this coming back to transferable skills,
right? So when we want our kids to do something,
we're selling them. of an idea or something.
So we're always selling. So I think that's something
that sort of, what I think is more of like, yeah,
what I've learned in business helped me in being
a mother and vice versa. Vice versa, yeah. I
mean, I guess they both, there are transferable
skills, you know, and it's important that you
understand your market, whether that's your children
or your customers. And, you know, like, Your
son, he did an amazing job understanding his
market. But, you know, that was something you
couldn't do because you didn't understand his
market. Yeah, that's why I thought, no, no one's
going to buy that, right? Are you sure? But yeah,
I didn't understand his market, but he did. Wow.
And I think this is a perfect time to do our
Hot or Hype segment. Okay. Which is, we're going
to ask you some quickfire questions. You tell
us whether you think it's hot or hype. You can
expand on it later if you want to. Okay. So we'll
start with, you can have it all, just not at
the same time. Hot or hype? Hot. Ooh, tell us
more. I think it's what's your definition of
all. Okay. Yeah, so if you have a clear definition
of what's your all, you can definitely have it
at the same time. What's your all? My all is
family and health at this point. Family, health,
business. I love it. What about wearing busy
as a badge of honor? Hot is agree, right? Hype
is yeah, okay. Hype. Sure. Yeah. Why? For sure.
I think that's, that's, busyness is an excuse
that a lot of people use to not go for what they
want. I'm too busy to do this. I'm busy to do
that, right? For the longest time, I always use
busy as the reason for not working out. There
you go. But until I realized that, nah, this
is really something I have to put time to. It's
important for me. Then we make time. Yeah, priorities.
Yeah, that's it. And busy, we just recorded our
100th episode. And we were talking in that episode
about something another guest had said, that
busy really needs a rebrand. Like, what are you
really? Are you overwhelmed? Are you time poor?
Are you distracted? Like, what is this busy?
Right? True. Yeah, true, true, true, true, true.
And I mean, like, look at both of you. You're
busy. You've got business. You've got kids. And
yet you have time. For this podcast. Exactly
like you did for your workouts. Yeah. Right?
We got to carve it for this podcast. You're welcome,
listeners. If you really cared about your kids,
you wouldn't work so hard. Hot or hype? Hype.
Yeah. Because if you care for your kids, you
should care for yourself first. How can you care
for another human being if you don't care for
yourself? You need to hustle in your 30s so you
can relax later. Hot. Tell us about the hustle.
I mean, we all know with age, whether we like
it or not, no matter how healthy you are. I can
feel that my energy level is dropping. So I think,
yeah, in your 30s, while you still have the energy,
go for it. There's nothing to lose. Go for it.
Hustle, take risks. And when the kids are older,
when you're older, then you can reap the rewards.
Yeah, for sure. And then what about chasing ambition
makes you a less present mother? Hi, of course,
hi. And because this is like, because I have
two daughters, right? The way I see it is when
they become mom, do I want them to be an all
-in mom, give up their ambition for the kids?
No, I want them to chase their ambition still.
So I am just modeling the behavior that I want
her to model. And also, like, can we just, is
ambition a dirty word for women? Like, why can't
we just use that word comfortably? Yeah, you're
right. I feel like, you know, we always have
to apologize for it. Yeah. Like, I feel like
if you refer to a man as being ambitious, he's
amazing. Yeah, he's doing really well. But if
a woman's ambitious. Especially a mother. Oh,
God, yeah. You know, then she's not a good mother.
Signed off. Yeah. Yeah. So it's good to have
ambition and stay ambitious. Yeah. So we've spoken
a lot about things that you've done. But what
have you stopped doing that has changed things
for you now? What have I stopped doing? Since
I turned 40, the thing that I've stopped doing
is less media appearances, less events. Yeah,
I feel it. Thank you for doing it because I'm
sure this falls into that category, if we're
being honest. Yeah, so I do pick and choose,
right? Of course, because we, I think as you
grow older, you realize that not everyone deserves
your time and attention. And in my 30s, I felt
the need to show up, to be everywhere. When you're
invited, you go. But I think once I turned 40,
those things are no longer important or nor it
is helpful in any way. Yeah. And it's funny because
we actually had a guest on, Marissa Nesitio,
and then she said, if it's not a hell yes, it's
a no. Yep. And I think it's really important
for us to remember, you know, like we grew up.
pleasing everybody like you know saying yes to
everything doing everything for everyone else
but you know when you get to your 40s that's
when it's time for yourself and if you don't
want to do it then don't fucking do it yeah yeah
i think turning 40 makes me realize who i am
and what's really important and care less about
others yeah again we call it no fucks given right
there's no fucks given decade like you just you
have to stop giving a fuck about what other people
think you have to yeah Weight off your shoulders.
Yeah. So what would you say is enough for you?
Like what does enough look like for you? I think
right now I'm pretty happy at the stage of where
I am. I think I have enough. I have the flexibility
to do whatever I want every day. So yeah, this
is enough. And I think that's good, isn't it?
Like knowing when is enough, because I think
sometimes you get into this mindset where you're
like, I need to do more. I need more. I need
more money. I need more time. I need more whatever
issues, whatever it is that you need. But actually
knowing when is enough, I think that gives you
that sort of peace, that inner peace that people
actually do crave. I think for me, work was enough
because I grew up poor. And I remember distinctly
at six years old worrying about grocery money
running out. So I grew up with scarcity mindset.
It's never enough. Money's going to run out,
right? And checking price, price points, prices
everywhere. But it gets to a point where, you
know, we're comfortable now, right? So when we
go to the supermarket, if my child gives me something,
mommy, can I have this? If it's not too unhealthy,
I don't check the price and I just put it in
the basket. Hopefully it's not $50 cherries,
which my son wanted to pick up once I was a kid.
He got cherry kids. Oh, wow. That's going to
put a dent. I say to him, you have to wait until
we go back to the summer, England, where you
can get a whole load for a pound. All right.
Yeah, yeah. Oh, we've done that. It's so much
fun. But, you know, yeah. I mean, we could buy
$50 cherries, but I'm not buying $50 cherries.
But it is a privilege to not have to think. It
is. It is. Yeah. Yeah. Just having that satisfaction
is going, hmm, I can afford things. And that's
actually really refreshing and maybe like a little
bit. I don't even know what the word is, like
atypical in Singapore, where like everyone's
definition of enough is actually more. Yeah.
Right. I mean, here is the biggest example of
the most expensive city in the world. Luxury,
everything, designer, everything. Everyone's
driving Lambos like it's insane. So to hear you
say having enough is not freaking out when the
cherries go in the shopping cart. It's refreshingly
simple, isn't it? I am a pretty simple person.
I think that's why I'm quite calm. That's why
you're the chill one. That's why I'm the chill
one. And I think this is the best time to ask
our final question, which is, what's your 40s
formula? We ask this question to all of our guests
and we want to know, what is it? that helps you
stay sane, stay grounded, helps you thrive in
this decade? I like to think that my 40s formula,
I don't know if I could live up to it, I'm still
trying every day, is to have fun. Yes. Have fun,
be grateful for the past version of me that got
me here and just have fun. You still have a long
way to go. Yes. I think early... Early, I mean,
in the early years, that's when we find ourselves
trying to figure out who we are. And once I got
into my 40s, I'm a lot more self -assured. I
feel like I know what I want. And we're not till,
you know, at the tail end of our life. This is
just the beginning. But have fun. Have fun with
all that knowledge that you've acquired. Good
for you. If you're not having fun, you're doing
it wrong. I really believe that. Because you
don't want to live a miserable life for the next
40, 50, 60 years, you know? We've got a long
journey left. And in fact, I feel like you might
be our first guest to say, have fun. Yeah, absolutely.
Oh, I'm glad. Yeah, we get a lot of like, own
your shit, you know, release the expectation.
But like, have fun. Have fun while doing it.
Profound. Yes. That's amazing. Thank you so much,
Michelle, for joining us today on The 40s Formula.
It has been incredible. Thank you. Thank you.
It's been very fun for me as well. Amazing. And
I think we're all going to strive for that five
hour working day. Let's go for it. Yay. Amazing.
Thank you. And I think I need to get into the
mind of just fuck it. I'll paste it. I'm really
struggling. Yeah. Exactly. Oh, wrong one. They
say you can't be deeply present mother and a
pop. Sorry. Can I start that again? It should
be a, and she has the audacity to call herself
the chill mom. Can I do that again? Sorry. It
should be now. No, I did that fucking wrong again.
Like, I sort of raised my voice there. I think
you don't need to say that, honestly. I think
you can just go from the chill mom to the next
thing. Okay, okay. I'll just do the now. Sorry.
Yeah, okay. Okay, perfect. Cool. Thank you. All
right. Thank you. I'll just move this. And it's
two fingers, right? I don't, I have a laptop,
so anytime it comes to the Mac, I'm like, it's
not moving, it's not moving. Right, okay.