WEBVTT

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Who decided what confidence is allowed to sound

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like? Because somewhere along the way, many of

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us don't lose our voices. We get trained to manage

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them, to soften our language, polish our tone,

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or fix our accents just enough to stay credible,

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likable. We know as young as five years old,

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we're already recognizing and assigning competence

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and warmth to certain sounding voices. It's not

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necessarily a confidence issue. It's more of

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how we've been socialized. If you have a boss

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or a coworker who constantly shoots you down.

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then sure, you're going to start pressing mute.

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Telling someone that they're so articulate or

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they speak English so well is not a compliment.

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Telling someone, I love your accent, also not

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a compliment. It's a way of minimizing people.

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Everyone's got an accent. It just depends on

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where you come from. I have worked with many

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women who say, my boss is always telling me I

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need to brush up my executive presence. When

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we talk about executive presence, it's simply

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teaching people how to perform in a way that

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meets the expectation of a particular audience,

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which if you look at the list, it's like, well,

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That's pretty white male. There was a time where

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the automatic subtitles on YouTube, women were

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transcribed less reliably than men. No way. So

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if you believe that you do not have an accent,

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that means that you speak the prestige variety.

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You have never had anyone point out to you anything

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about the way that you speak, that it's wrong

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or incorrect. It's just a sign that I won the

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language lottery. We've had, for 26 years, the

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Speak Good English movement. Telling them every

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single year, the way you speak is not good enough.

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It's time to unmute. It's time for us to be confident,

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to speak up, to show ourselves, to show our ideas.

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We need winner's voices. Who decided what confidence

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is allowed to sound like? Because somewhere along

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the way, many of us don't lose our voices. We

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get trained to manage them, to soften our language,

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polish our tone, or fix our accents. Just enough

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to stay credible, likable, and safe. especially

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as women, especially as we get older, and especially

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as we're invited into bigger and more powerful

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rooms. In today's conversation, we're pulling

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apart how muting is learned, why it accelerates,

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and the subtle cues that reveal when someone

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is shrinking their own voice. We're challenging

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the idea that power and femininity sit on opposite

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sides of the spectrum and interrogating what

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executive presence really means. We're also confronting

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accent bias head -on. Who gets to sound authoritative?

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Why adaptability matters more than sounding neutral.

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And what it costs when people are judged for

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how they speak instead of what they know. This

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isn't about speaking louder or sounding perfect.

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It's about being heard. If you've ever felt your

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confidence drop the moment you open your mouth,

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stay with us. And if listening to this episode

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inspires you to speak up, why not share that

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power with a girlfriend, a family member, or

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a colleague that might need to hear it? Follow,

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like and subscribe to the 40s Formula podcast

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on our YouTube channel or anywhere you listen

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to the podcast. And now here's our chat with

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Heather Hansen. Welcome, Heather. Thank you for

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being with us on the show. Thanks so much for

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having me. We are really honored and excited.

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This is one we've been waiting for for a while.

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Your latest book is called Unmuted, and it's

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all about how we hold ourselves back from communicating

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with confidence. Now, assuming that we do learn

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to mute ourselves, that it is a learned behavior,

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how does that happen? It is a learned behavior,

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and it starts very young, and I think especially

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for women. We learn to mute really early on.

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We learn how to be the good girl. We learn how

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to be quiet in class. We learn that you have

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to raise your hand if you want to speak. We follow

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all of those rules. And when it comes specifically

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to my area of expertise, which is within accents,

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we know as young as five years old, we're already

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recognizing and assigning competence and warmth

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to certain sounding voices. And in American context,

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nine -year -olds are able to tell you that people

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from the North, are smarter. And people from

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the South are kinder. That's interesting. So

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we're already making those decisions, assumptions.

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We're learning it. We're learning it already.

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And we know what our voices mean. And we know

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how we come across to other people and how we're

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perceived. And we learn to start managing our

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behaviors, including our speech. And you said,

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you know, women are kind of subject to this good

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girl kind of trope. What do you think is similar

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for men? Well, they're taught to be loud. They're

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taught to, you know, go outside and play and

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run around and yell. And we're taught to be quiet

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and be in our rooms and play with our dolls.

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And sure, that's changing to a degree. I mean,

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I grew up very athletic. Yet still, I know that

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I have so much of that of I need to follow the

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rules. I'm sure you've heard about the studies,

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how... A woman will only apply for a job if she

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meets 100 % of the qualifications, whereas a

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man will go and apply if he only meets 60%, right?

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And we like to say that this has to do with confidence.

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But there was another recent study done that

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really went back to showing how, no, women aren't

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applying because they believe in the rules. They

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believe, they say, well, they say that these

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are the requirements, so they must be the requirements.

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So why would I waste my time and their time?

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to apply whereas the men know well the requirements

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aren't always the requirements and there's always

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a workaround and we can let's just go for it

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right it's not necessarily a confidence issue

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it's more of how we've been socialized and that's

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a little bit scary when we grow up and then we

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go into the workplace and the way that we interact

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with our children as well It's funny, actually,

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because I think about it and I always say I'm

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non -confrontational. I don't like when there's

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conflict, you know, and I find myself in a situation

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where if I don't agree, I go quiet and I won't

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speak up. I will just sort of hold back and just

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keep it within me and not, you know, be open

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about it. And in fact, we've spoken about this,

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haven't we? And this may be a feminine thing,

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but you're going to laugh. Let's hear it. A very

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good British friend of mine gave me a very British

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problems daily calendar. So every day it's a

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tear off. Oh. You know what yesterday's was?

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What was it? Being British is telling your friends,

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I got so mad I almost said something. And I was

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like, that is Jasmine on every level. Oh my God,

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that is so true. Heather, in your work, in terms

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of cultural context that may affect the way that

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we, you know, either speak loudly, speak quietly,

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et cetera. Oh, there's definitely so much cultural

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context. And especially going from West to East

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and our different cultures and what we see as

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respect, for example. I mean, I love walking

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into these companies and respect is always one

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of their big values, you know, painted on the

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wall. And it's... Whose definition of respect?

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Because respect for me as an American is speaking

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up and challenging the boss and sharing my ideas

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and being involved. Whereas respect in a different

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culture can be something very, very different.

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It means staying quiet, deference. Yeah, respecting

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what the boss says. And they are showing respect

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in their way. But then what happens when these

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two cultures collide is we have the Westerner

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saying, well, they aren't engaged. They aren't

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speaking up. They either don't care or they don't

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know. And therefore, they don't deserve that

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promotion, or they don't deserve that raise,

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or they don't deserve that international posting,

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or we can't trust them to advocate for our company

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with a client or a customer. So it affects a

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lot when we all come together in these international

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workplaces. So is muting then something that

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you feel is holding women professionals, people

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from Eastern cultures, holding them back in global

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leadership? I think it's when we don't own our

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voice because it's not always about speaking

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up. I mean, the framework that I present in Unmuted

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is around conscious. confident, and connected

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communication and having all of those three in

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equal measure. So the conscious side is about

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knowing how to read that room, understanding

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the cultural differences, knowing when it's appropriate

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to speak up and when it's appropriate to hold

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back and listen to others. The confidence part

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is all around your skills confidence, your self

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-confidence. Do you know how to stand up and

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give a presentation? Do you know how to interact

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and what to say and how to say it? And then finally,

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the connected piece, which is the one we always

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forget. That is your environment. because you

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can speak up all you want. If you have a boss

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or a coworker who constantly shoots you down,

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then sure, you're going to start pressing mute

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and you're going to do it a lot. If you have

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a partner in a relationship who doesn't let you

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speak or doesn't respect your voice, then you

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press mute and you withdraw. And that's what

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I see happening in a lot of workplaces. It's

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usually the people on mute are the ones who are

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not feeling a sense of belonging or inclusion.

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There isn't a psychologically safe environment.

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So they choose to withdraw. I had another podcast

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that people who look different but have similar

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accents feel more trusting with the person who's

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got a similar accent than if they look different.

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But if they sound different but look the same,

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that trust isn't quite there. How does that work

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then in, you know, a culture like Singapore where

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it's so multicultural? Right? Yeah. This is what

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I'm trying to figure out in my PhD because we

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don't have a lot of research on this in these

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really hugely multilingual, multicultural contexts.

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We have a lot of research around what the native

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speaker thinks of the foreigner and the foreign

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accent or non -native accent. We have so much

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of that and we have so much research that shows

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we will constantly label someone as different

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and then rate them lower in competence, lower

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in warmth. My huge question is what happens when

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we all come together from all parts of the world

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where there isn't one announced standard that

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must be in place? How do we then negotiate amongst

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ourselves the highest level of way of speaking?

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Obviously, you know, Singapore has a British

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history. So for a very long time, British English

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was standard. The standard English, the speak

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good English movement is referring to British

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English standard. I mean, I've been here. I have

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my company here for 19 years this year. There

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has been a massive shift in the last decade toward

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American English. Do you think that's the, I

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guess, the globalization of entertainment? Absolutely.

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Our kids growing up on TikTok. Yes, exactly.

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That's what we're really asking. And that I find

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so fascinating. There's a great book called Algo

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Speak, which is all about how, written by a linguist,

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and he's really cool. And it's all about how...

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you know, the young people are coming forth with

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these new words. And a lot of it is actually

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coming about because they're trying to get around

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the algorithms. So an algorithm will mute them

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when they use certain words. So now they say

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unaliving. Yes, I have seen that. And the reason

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they do it is because they're working around

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the algorithms. So they've learned ways to change

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their language, change their behavior, the way

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they talk, to move around the algorithms so that

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they can get their message heard. So you and

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I had an email exchange before this interview

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where you told me that women and children are

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at the forefront of linguistic innovation. Is

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this what you mean? This is part of it. Absolutely.

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And I mean, if you think about it, we all hate

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change and especially people in power. hate change,

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because that challenges their power. So whenever

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we see a shift in the way we speak, whether it's

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uptalk, or vocal fry, or, you know, the slang

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used by the younger generation, it's all in the

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six, seven, because that is doing. Yeah, that's

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all I hear at home right now. So But these are

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all ways that we begin changing the language.

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And women and teens are typically the ones that

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are pushing that linguistic change. And we get

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a lot of pushback. Oh, well, uptalk, that's a

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woman thing. It's not. I have so many male clients,

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and they do it. The vocal fry, the men are doing

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it. Look at any, just Gann, Instagram, Reels,

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whatever. Any ad that comes up is almost constant

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vocal fry. It doesn't matter if it's man or woman.

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It's everywhere, right? But we get blamed for

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ruining the language, right? Especially the kids.

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This idea of ruining the language, I think it's

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so interesting. One of the bombs you drop in

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your TED Talk is that for the 400 million native

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English speakers, there are 2 billion people

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coming to the English language, right? So who

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then is the guardian of the standard, right?

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The standard, like you said. Who gets to make

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those decisions? Who makes those decisions? And

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with the communication styles with, you know,

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social media, obviously being a leading force

00:12:43.480 --> 00:12:46.039
in cultural change. Like there, it's not as,

00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:49.299
you know, British. It's not black and white.

00:12:49.600 --> 00:12:51.759
It's weird though. So obviously I'm British.

00:12:51.860 --> 00:12:54.000
My husband's British. My kids are British. But

00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:57.200
my sons are picking up some Americanisms when

00:12:57.200 --> 00:13:00.019
they're speaking. And whenever he does get that

00:13:00.019 --> 00:13:02.960
American twang, I'm kind of like, Kyan? like

00:13:02.960 --> 00:13:04.759
it's because he's listening to the podcast obviously

00:13:04.759 --> 00:13:08.039
he's picking it up from you but as a British

00:13:08.039 --> 00:13:10.899
person I'm kind of like kind can you pronounce

00:13:10.899 --> 00:13:13.259
that properly and I'm I'm guilty of it I guess

00:13:13.259 --> 00:13:16.299
you know I yeah and I do think that I guess British

00:13:16.299 --> 00:13:19.590
people probably do I don't know what's the word,

00:13:19.669 --> 00:13:23.429
have these biases more? We all do. We all do.

00:13:23.950 --> 00:13:26.110
I mean, I had a mom that said, we don't talk

00:13:26.110 --> 00:13:28.470
like that. Right? I think I say that. I think

00:13:28.470 --> 00:13:31.029
I say that. In reference to what? Do you mind

00:13:31.029 --> 00:13:34.429
sharing? Grammar or pronunciation. And I've been

00:13:34.429 --> 00:13:36.049
very careful with my girls. You know, my girls

00:13:36.049 --> 00:13:38.269
were born here in Singapore. I sent them to local

00:13:38.269 --> 00:13:41.429
preschools. One day, my little three -year -old

00:13:41.429 --> 00:13:44.490
comes home so upset. And you have to imagine,

00:13:44.570 --> 00:13:47.789
I'm married to a Dane. She is like blonde hair,

00:13:47.970 --> 00:13:51.429
white as a ghost, bright blue eyes, curly blonde

00:13:51.429 --> 00:13:56.789
hair, walks in and goes, I forgot my water bottle

00:13:56.789 --> 00:14:01.409
is cool. And I just, I was shocked. I was just,

00:14:01.470 --> 00:14:03.610
it was just total cognitive dissonance. I had

00:14:03.610 --> 00:14:06.049
never heard her speak that way. And I just stood

00:14:06.049 --> 00:14:08.590
there and then she goes. Oh, oh, sorry, mommy.

00:14:08.669 --> 00:14:11.549
I forgot my water bottle at school. Oh, sorry.

00:14:13.889 --> 00:14:17.110
I forgot you don't speak that language. And see

00:14:17.110 --> 00:14:19.769
on the flip side in my house, right? I have Singaporean

00:14:19.769 --> 00:14:22.490
husband, Singaporean in -laws whose English is

00:14:22.490 --> 00:14:24.389
their second language. And then my three Singaporean

00:14:24.389 --> 00:14:27.029
kids who are obviously in local school and it

00:14:27.029 --> 00:14:29.669
doesn't, I don't hear it. Right. Cause I'm literally

00:14:29.669 --> 00:14:31.809
in that world. I have a really good girlfriend.

00:14:31.889 --> 00:14:33.330
You know, my, my best girlfriend who moved to

00:14:33.330 --> 00:14:35.809
the UK is Singaporean. Whenever she sees videos

00:14:35.809 --> 00:14:38.409
of my kids. She's like, oh my God, Amanda, they

00:14:38.409 --> 00:14:40.370
are the most Singaporean accent I've ever heard.

00:14:40.470 --> 00:14:43.309
And I was like, oh, are they? Because I'm surrounded

00:14:43.309 --> 00:14:45.549
by it. So it's like, it's that difference, right?

00:14:45.649 --> 00:14:48.029
And I wonder when we go back to the US next year

00:14:48.029 --> 00:14:50.389
for a visit, we haven't been, my kids were babies.

00:14:50.450 --> 00:14:51.490
Let's put it this way. They weren't speaking

00:14:51.490 --> 00:14:53.750
really. So we haven't been since they've been

00:14:53.750 --> 00:14:56.169
verbal. This will be interesting. That would

00:14:56.169 --> 00:14:58.110
be very interesting. Who notices, who doesn't?

00:14:58.279 --> 00:15:00.399
Who understands who doesn't? Well, everyone will

00:15:00.399 --> 00:15:04.179
notice. Thank you, Heather. It will be interesting

00:15:04.179 --> 00:15:07.019
to see who will say something and what they will

00:15:07.019 --> 00:15:11.100
say in response. Because everyone will notice.

00:15:11.139 --> 00:15:14.259
We immediately notice. And that's very, very

00:15:14.259 --> 00:15:17.179
natural. There's a great book called Talking

00:15:17.179 --> 00:15:20.320
Back, Talking Black by John McWhorter, who's

00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:23.600
at Columbia. And he talks all about how we're

00:15:23.600 --> 00:15:26.480
able to hear race in a voice. It's funny you

00:15:26.480 --> 00:15:28.440
say that because I feel like I can do that. Like

00:15:28.440 --> 00:15:32.120
if I'm hearing someone speak with a British accent,

00:15:32.220 --> 00:15:33.980
I can kind of sometimes tell whether they're

00:15:33.980 --> 00:15:38.659
of Indian descent or, and it's weird. Yeah. You

00:15:38.659 --> 00:15:41.500
can do it. And it's very, very natural. We just

00:15:41.500 --> 00:15:43.600
know how to categorize and our minds just very

00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:45.740
naturally, very quickly categorize in that way.

00:15:45.820 --> 00:15:47.480
And there's nothing wrong with that. There's

00:15:47.480 --> 00:15:50.039
nothing racist about that. Nothing. But then

00:15:50.039 --> 00:15:52.159
it's what do we do with that information? Yeah.

00:15:52.299 --> 00:15:54.399
Right. I mean, I have a colleague here who's

00:15:54.399 --> 00:15:56.539
African -American. She had been speaking with

00:15:56.539 --> 00:15:58.480
a potential client on the phone several times,

00:15:58.600 --> 00:16:01.200
was finally invited to the office to meet. And

00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:03.500
she's in the waiting room. He comes out and he

00:16:03.500 --> 00:16:06.330
looks right past her. And so she stands up and

00:16:06.330 --> 00:16:09.370
says, hi, I'm so -and -so. And he goes, oh, oh,

00:16:09.389 --> 00:16:12.049
gosh, you didn't sound black on the phone. No

00:16:12.049 --> 00:16:15.649
way. How did she take that? Well, she's heard

00:16:15.649 --> 00:16:17.389
it before. So she just said, oh, really? What

00:16:17.389 --> 00:16:21.090
does black sound like? There isn't a problem

00:16:21.090 --> 00:16:23.350
in the fact that he recognized it. But the question

00:16:23.350 --> 00:16:26.590
is. What if she had sounded black on the phone?

00:16:26.730 --> 00:16:28.769
Would she have still been invited into the office?

00:16:29.009 --> 00:16:31.049
You know, did that play a role in his decision

00:16:31.049 --> 00:16:33.169
making process, even though he hadn't consciously

00:16:33.169 --> 00:16:37.450
thought about it? And that's where the way that

00:16:37.450 --> 00:16:41.649
we speak can start to change the way we behave,

00:16:41.830 --> 00:16:44.029
change the way we choose to speak up, change

00:16:44.029 --> 00:16:46.250
what we talk about, change the language we use.

00:16:47.389 --> 00:16:49.629
Because language isn't neutral. It never is.

00:16:49.649 --> 00:16:52.029
Accents aren't neutral. Every single thing we

00:16:52.029 --> 00:16:55.250
choose to say is socially attached to some kind

00:16:55.250 --> 00:16:58.769
of meaning. And you can't separate it. Fair that

00:16:58.769 --> 00:17:02.450
I had gone to a big American university, joined

00:17:02.450 --> 00:17:06.529
a traditionally white sorority. In doing that,

00:17:06.650 --> 00:17:09.009
I was for the first time confronted with my own

00:17:09.009 --> 00:17:11.690
whiteness. And I decided to go into diversity

00:17:11.690 --> 00:17:13.630
and inclusion work after college because it really

00:17:13.630 --> 00:17:15.450
shook me. You know, I hadn't had that experience

00:17:15.450 --> 00:17:17.150
before. And it was really something profound

00:17:17.150 --> 00:17:19.670
for me. So my first job out of college was diversity

00:17:19.670 --> 00:17:23.289
inclusion organizer for my college. And what

00:17:23.289 --> 00:17:26.130
we used to do was kind of dismantle some of these

00:17:26.130 --> 00:17:28.589
white privilege ideas targeting that Greek system.

00:17:28.630 --> 00:17:30.690
So targeting the traditionally white fraternities

00:17:30.690 --> 00:17:33.309
and sororities. And something that often came

00:17:33.309 --> 00:17:37.650
up was, Telling someone that's non -white that

00:17:37.650 --> 00:17:40.390
they're so articulate or they speak English so

00:17:40.390 --> 00:17:44.269
well is not a compliment. And something you've

00:17:44.269 --> 00:17:47.029
addressed is telling someone, I love your accent,

00:17:47.069 --> 00:17:49.390
also not a compliment. Can you unpack that a

00:17:49.390 --> 00:17:51.829
bit for folks who may never have perceived that

00:17:51.829 --> 00:17:53.569
those things are not compliments? Yeah, and we

00:17:53.569 --> 00:17:56.289
usually, we have the best intentions. When we

00:17:56.289 --> 00:17:58.150
say something like that, and I'm guilty too,

00:17:58.329 --> 00:18:00.450
you know, I love your accent. I've said it to

00:18:00.450 --> 00:18:02.069
you. I've said it directly to your face, by the

00:18:02.069 --> 00:18:05.490
way. And there's just something about hearing.

00:18:05.569 --> 00:18:07.589
And because we are so, global and international

00:18:07.589 --> 00:18:09.589
and we hear so many different voices and people

00:18:09.589 --> 00:18:12.529
and we are naturally interested. But I think

00:18:12.529 --> 00:18:16.130
when I finally understood why this is not the

00:18:16.130 --> 00:18:17.890
greatest thing to say, it's because I've had

00:18:17.890 --> 00:18:20.609
experiences living and speaking foreign languages.

00:18:21.049 --> 00:18:24.450
So, you know, I worked abroad when I was in college

00:18:24.450 --> 00:18:27.210
in Switzerland. I studied abroad in Austria all

00:18:27.210 --> 00:18:29.049
of that time. I was speaking German the entire

00:18:29.049 --> 00:18:31.230
time. Then, of course, I moved to Denmark. I

00:18:31.230 --> 00:18:33.430
married my Danish husband. I'm fluent in Danish.

00:18:34.599 --> 00:18:37.279
And I lived there a total of eight years. And

00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:40.880
still, you know, every single time I open my

00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:43.619
mouth, it's like, oh. Where are you from? I love

00:18:43.619 --> 00:18:46.759
your accent. Oh, say that again. I had a business

00:18:46.759 --> 00:18:49.700
meeting. Stop. Because they wanted to tell me

00:18:49.700 --> 00:18:52.740
how charming my accent was. And I'm like, you

00:18:52.740 --> 00:18:54.160
know what? If we were sitting here speaking English,

00:18:54.200 --> 00:18:56.519
you wouldn't dare call me charming in the middle

00:18:56.519 --> 00:18:59.519
of a business negotiation. It's a way of minimizing

00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:02.480
people. It's a way of placing your power above

00:19:02.480 --> 00:19:05.579
theirs. And I often find that when people do

00:19:05.579 --> 00:19:08.859
not have a good argument, they'll point out the

00:19:08.859 --> 00:19:11.500
language. Right. So the minute they don't have

00:19:11.500 --> 00:19:13.299
something else to say, it's like that should

00:19:13.299 --> 00:19:15.839
have been is not are or, you know, or they'll

00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:18.039
cut down the email or the grammar professor.

00:19:18.099 --> 00:19:20.500
Yeah, the grammar police or the pronunciation

00:19:20.500 --> 00:19:24.180
police, one or the two. But it was it was that

00:19:24.180 --> 00:19:27.140
constant interaction of being considered. And

00:19:27.140 --> 00:19:29.380
really, I'm lucky coming back to the whiteness

00:19:29.380 --> 00:19:32.480
issue, being a white foreigner in Denmark. I

00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:34.619
had people tell me I was the kind of foreigner

00:19:34.619 --> 00:19:37.000
they wanted there because I was white, Western

00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:40.079
educated and learned how to speak Danish. And

00:19:40.079 --> 00:19:44.319
so my accent, they like. But I can tell you,

00:19:44.339 --> 00:19:48.019
the people from Syria, Afghanistan, anywhere

00:19:48.019 --> 00:19:51.460
in Africa, forget it. The darker the skin becomes,

00:19:51.759 --> 00:19:55.250
the less charming. Less charming the accent.

00:19:55.329 --> 00:19:59.630
Yes. So, and that's quite clear across the board.

00:19:59.690 --> 00:20:01.609
It's not only a Danish thing. This is across

00:20:01.609 --> 00:20:03.369
the board. For our Danish listeners. All right.

00:20:03.410 --> 00:20:04.970
Yes, yes. I'm sorry. This is not only you. I

00:20:04.970 --> 00:20:06.930
love you, Denmark. I really love you right now.

00:20:07.750 --> 00:20:10.250
I had an experience. I went to India and I was

00:20:10.250 --> 00:20:12.450
trying to speak Hindi, trying because I don't

00:20:12.450 --> 00:20:16.230
speak it. And I got told that I speak Hindi like

00:20:16.230 --> 00:20:19.769
a white person. But then I actually was like,

00:20:19.869 --> 00:20:22.410
oh, I better stop because clearly they don't.

00:20:22.619 --> 00:20:23.960
I don't know, they're like, they don't understand.

00:20:24.019 --> 00:20:26.099
So that didn't feel like a compliment to me.

00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:28.440
That kind of felt like, I don't know, that I

00:20:28.440 --> 00:20:31.680
wasn't speaking it right. So, you know, like

00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:34.339
I guess on the flip side, when you go to somewhere

00:20:34.339 --> 00:20:36.559
else, even if your colour is matching and your

00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:39.539
accent isn't, which is going back to the... That's

00:20:39.539 --> 00:20:42.000
also really hard. I remember a friend in college

00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:44.700
who was Japanese -American, decided to go to

00:20:44.700 --> 00:20:47.079
Japan to study abroad, but never learned Japanese.

00:20:47.940 --> 00:20:50.799
And imagine what that's like to be in Japan and

00:20:50.799 --> 00:20:52.180
you don't speak the language. They all looked

00:20:52.180 --> 00:20:53.400
at her like, what do you mean you don't speak

00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:56.920
the language? How is that possible? You're Japanese.

00:20:57.119 --> 00:20:59.700
Why don't you speak it? And it was the hardest

00:20:59.700 --> 00:21:03.640
semester of her life. So there's a lot around

00:21:03.640 --> 00:21:07.160
race and identity. and language and how you sound

00:21:07.160 --> 00:21:09.140
and whether it matches what you're supposed to

00:21:09.140 --> 00:21:12.200
sound like and who makes those rules, who decides.

00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:16.240
And it's really based on status, right? Global

00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:19.460
systems of status, of socioeconomic status, usually.

00:21:20.039 --> 00:21:23.160
It's very interesting in the UK. I mean... There's

00:21:23.160 --> 00:21:24.980
a lot of research right now in the UK around

00:21:24.980 --> 00:21:27.759
all the regional accents. And it is very, very

00:21:27.759 --> 00:21:30.519
closely tied to socioeconomic status. So unless

00:21:30.519 --> 00:21:32.700
you speak a certain way, you are not appropriate

00:21:32.700 --> 00:21:35.579
for a certain role. And it's been proven time

00:21:35.579 --> 00:21:37.339
and time and time again in hiring and promotion

00:21:37.339 --> 00:21:40.440
decisions that that idea of who is competent

00:21:40.440 --> 00:21:43.220
and who is not is very much based on the way

00:21:43.220 --> 00:21:45.960
that you speak. Executive presence. I've never

00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:47.799
been in a corporate environment, but I have worked

00:21:47.799 --> 00:21:50.980
with many women who do, who are. And they say,

00:21:51.019 --> 00:21:52.420
you know, yeah, my boss is a... always telling

00:21:52.420 --> 00:21:55.119
me I need to brush up my executive presence.

00:21:55.220 --> 00:21:57.880
I need to be more confident. I need to be more,

00:21:57.940 --> 00:22:02.160
I need to exude authority. What are the subtexts

00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:05.599
behind these types of kind of really nebulous?

00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:08.940
I struggle with this so much because I run courses

00:22:08.940 --> 00:22:11.359
on executive presence and professional presence

00:22:11.359 --> 00:22:16.259
for women, for men, for leadership. And I constantly

00:22:16.259 --> 00:22:18.819
struggle with it because I truly, honestly believe.

00:22:19.339 --> 00:22:21.759
Very bluntly said, what we are doing when we

00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:23.420
talk about executive presence is simply teaching

00:22:23.420 --> 00:22:25.319
people how to perform in a way that meets the

00:22:25.319 --> 00:22:28.059
expectation of a particular audience. That's

00:22:28.059 --> 00:22:31.140
all it is. How do I need to behave? How do I

00:22:31.140 --> 00:22:35.759
need to look, sound, speak, act in order to meet

00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:37.799
the expectation of that person that's in front

00:22:37.799 --> 00:22:42.490
of me? And we have all these markers that we

00:22:42.490 --> 00:22:44.769
know visually, vocally, verbally, we can look

00:22:44.769 --> 00:22:47.329
at them, status markers, you know, if you're

00:22:47.329 --> 00:22:49.750
louder, if you speak faster, if you use more.

00:22:50.329 --> 00:22:52.710
articulate pronunciation, careful pronunciation

00:22:52.710 --> 00:22:56.230
instead of I'm gonna do this, gonna do that.

00:22:56.309 --> 00:22:59.789
I'm going to, I'm going to make a presentation.

00:23:00.289 --> 00:23:02.569
So careful pronunciation, all of these things

00:23:02.569 --> 00:23:05.630
are on the powerful side, whereas more relaxed

00:23:05.630 --> 00:23:08.950
pronunciation, lower speaking voice, higher pitch,

00:23:09.170 --> 00:23:11.049
all of those things are on the more attractive.

00:23:11.819 --> 00:23:15.440
side, friendly, warm side. So in order to fit

00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:17.339
all these powerful markers, how do we define

00:23:17.339 --> 00:23:19.940
it? What does it look and sound like? Well, that's

00:23:19.940 --> 00:23:23.079
what we think is powerful, is correct, is going

00:23:23.079 --> 00:23:25.920
to get us up the ladder. Well, where do we come

00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:28.279
in as women? When do we, when are we allowed

00:23:28.279 --> 00:23:31.119
to be softer? Because God knows we need, we really

00:23:31.119 --> 00:23:34.400
need more women's voices. We need to start pressing

00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:36.759
unmute, especially those of us in our forties.

00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:41.039
It's like, come on, we have 20 years of our career

00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:43.980
behind us. We know our stuff. We know what needs

00:23:43.980 --> 00:23:45.920
to be done. And now we need to start speaking

00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:50.180
up and vocalizing that. And it could sound and

00:23:50.180 --> 00:23:55.079
feel very difficult at first because we're forced

00:23:55.079 --> 00:23:57.460
into that powerful mode that maybe doesn't come

00:23:57.460 --> 00:24:00.680
naturally to a lot of us. You know, I was a speech

00:24:00.680 --> 00:24:03.200
and debate kid in high school, right? So I was

00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:06.380
trained. to be that way from a very young age.

00:24:06.460 --> 00:24:11.240
And that has assisted my life journey in many,

00:24:11.299 --> 00:24:13.519
many ways. But it doesn't mean it's the only

00:24:13.519 --> 00:24:15.299
way. And it doesn't mean it's the right way.

00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:17.539
And yet we have huge trading industries that

00:24:17.539 --> 00:24:19.859
are built on this, right? That I'm profiting

00:24:19.859 --> 00:24:22.559
from, right? And that's the hypocrisy. And I

00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:24.700
talk about the hypocrisy of my career constantly

00:24:24.700 --> 00:24:30.730
because... What do I do? I have these people

00:24:30.730 --> 00:24:33.250
who are trying to succeed in a system that's

00:24:33.250 --> 00:24:37.170
completely messed up. And yet, I'm not going

00:24:37.170 --> 00:24:38.509
to be able to fix this system the rest of my

00:24:38.509 --> 00:24:41.109
life. I can go on podcasts. I can do keynotes.

00:24:41.109 --> 00:24:43.789
I can talk. I can write. I can write books. But

00:24:43.789 --> 00:24:46.609
I won't even make a dent by the time I die. So

00:24:46.609 --> 00:24:49.150
what do we do in the meantime? Let them struggle

00:24:49.150 --> 00:24:51.230
or do we teach them the tools? But I think the

00:24:51.230 --> 00:24:53.890
thing to keep in mind is that we always have

00:24:53.890 --> 00:24:59.400
agency. If I am going to change my behavior,

00:24:59.480 --> 00:25:02.799
my style of speaking, my tone, any of those things,

00:25:02.859 --> 00:25:05.900
that is my choice. And I am actively choosing

00:25:05.900 --> 00:25:08.759
to do that. And I know exactly why I'm doing

00:25:08.759 --> 00:25:12.079
it in that situation. It's not that I'm being

00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:17.279
forced. It's not that. I have to. I can choose

00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:19.619
to do something differently. But what result

00:25:19.619 --> 00:25:22.079
do I want? And am I going to get the result I

00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:24.740
want by doing it this way? So for me, I find

00:25:24.740 --> 00:25:27.059
some kind of justification there in this idea

00:25:27.059 --> 00:25:30.200
of maintaining my agency and being aware of what

00:25:30.200 --> 00:25:32.640
I'm doing. Because most of us are just unconsciously

00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:34.920
doing this. We're trying to fit into systems

00:25:34.920 --> 00:25:37.839
and behave in a way that isn't us. And suddenly

00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:40.630
when you... are consciously choosing to behave

00:25:40.630 --> 00:25:43.430
a certain way. Now it's not masking. It's not

00:25:43.430 --> 00:25:46.289
camouflage. It's no, I'm making an active decision.

00:25:46.390 --> 00:25:48.390
It's just like when we're living in another culture

00:25:48.390 --> 00:25:51.589
and we know this is not appropriate in this culture.

00:25:51.650 --> 00:25:53.950
So I'm going to actively choose to behave in

00:25:53.950 --> 00:25:56.950
this way. I know it's not my norm, but I know

00:25:56.950 --> 00:25:59.250
this is appropriate in this context. It's funny

00:25:59.250 --> 00:26:00.910
that you bring this up because that's just reminded

00:26:00.910 --> 00:26:03.690
me of a conversation I had with a colleague years

00:26:03.690 --> 00:26:05.390
and years ago when I first worked in Singapore.

00:26:05.789 --> 00:26:09.259
And he said to me, I wish I had a neutral accent

00:26:09.259 --> 00:26:11.680
like yours. And I was like, but I've got an accent.

00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:13.619
I've just got a British accent. I was like, everyone's

00:26:13.619 --> 00:26:15.299
got an accent. It's just depends on where you

00:26:15.299 --> 00:26:17.279
come from. And he was like, no, he goes, yeah,

00:26:17.299 --> 00:26:20.779
I understand. My one sounds. different and I

00:26:20.779 --> 00:26:24.160
was like okay but you know like he was feeling

00:26:24.160 --> 00:26:26.759
that from you know from the way he spoke because

00:26:26.759 --> 00:26:28.940
I'm sure he's been affected by it yeah you know

00:26:28.940 --> 00:26:31.500
he he's been told or treated in such a way because

00:26:31.500 --> 00:26:33.619
of that accent that he wants to change it yeah

00:26:33.619 --> 00:26:36.299
which is unfortunate well when I've run courses

00:26:36.299 --> 00:26:39.039
on accent bias one of the very first questions

00:26:39.039 --> 00:26:42.940
I ask is do you have an accent and especially

00:26:42.940 --> 00:26:45.160
when I run these for American audiences I'll

00:26:45.160 --> 00:26:47.740
usually have Between 20 and 30 % who say no.

00:26:48.039 --> 00:26:50.480
Oh, interesting. I think I would have been one

00:26:50.480 --> 00:26:52.420
of those back in the day. I mean, like, no, I'm

00:26:52.420 --> 00:26:55.000
the most neutral. I'm the newscaster. Welcome

00:26:55.000 --> 00:26:58.160
to the evening news. Exactly. Exactly. We sound

00:26:58.160 --> 00:27:00.720
like the newscasters. We sound like the Hollywood

00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:02.900
films, the Hollywood stars. No, not a British

00:27:02.900 --> 00:27:07.519
newscaster. There's more Anchorman, 1970s. But

00:27:07.519 --> 00:27:10.569
really, if... If you believe that you do not

00:27:10.569 --> 00:27:13.210
have an accent, that means that you speak the

00:27:13.210 --> 00:27:16.329
prestige variety. You have never had anyone point

00:27:16.329 --> 00:27:18.690
out to you anything about the way that you speak,

00:27:18.809 --> 00:27:22.029
that it's wrong or incorrect. It's always been

00:27:22.029 --> 00:27:25.849
perfect. It's just a sign that, okay, I was raised

00:27:25.849 --> 00:27:28.089
in a certain location in a certain part of the

00:27:28.089 --> 00:27:32.089
world that is recognized as being the prestige

00:27:32.089 --> 00:27:34.250
standard, the smartest, the most professional,

00:27:34.509 --> 00:27:36.609
the most friendly, the most everything, right?

00:27:36.730 --> 00:27:42.130
And that is such a gift. And it really does change

00:27:42.130 --> 00:27:44.970
the whole trajectory. If you were born into that

00:27:44.970 --> 00:27:47.849
language lottery, I call it, you know, I won

00:27:47.849 --> 00:27:50.359
the language lottery. Do the British. also feel

00:27:50.359 --> 00:27:52.059
they don't have an accent? Or do they say, I've

00:27:52.059 --> 00:27:54.019
got a British accent? Well, they would within

00:27:54.019 --> 00:27:57.619
their own context, right? I mean, if you leave,

00:27:57.640 --> 00:27:59.720
then that's when we start to recognize, of course,

00:27:59.720 --> 00:28:01.539
we all have like, yeah, I have an American accent,

00:28:01.579 --> 00:28:03.720
right? Actually, that's right. So if I was in

00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:06.200
the UK and someone said, oh, your accent, I'm

00:28:06.200 --> 00:28:08.880
like, I don't have an accent in the UK. Whereas

00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:11.319
I would think somebody from up North or the Midlands

00:28:11.319 --> 00:28:14.839
do have an accent. Okay. But obviously in a context

00:28:14.839 --> 00:28:17.079
where it's more multicultural, I would say mine

00:28:17.079 --> 00:28:19.940
is British or American. Yeah. Okay. Because here,

00:28:19.980 --> 00:28:21.599
when we go to work, you know, we can have a dinner

00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:25.519
party and have 15 accents for 15 people. Exactly.

00:28:25.740 --> 00:28:27.779
And that's the great thing about Singapore. Oh,

00:28:27.900 --> 00:28:30.119
fantastic. That's what I love about it. I don't

00:28:30.119 --> 00:28:31.720
know that all of our listeners know. So we do

00:28:31.720 --> 00:28:33.920
have a majority Singapore listenership, but we

00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:35.480
also have a great global listenership. And I

00:28:35.480 --> 00:28:37.500
don't think people realize that Singapore has

00:28:37.500 --> 00:28:39.619
four. official languages. If you've been here,

00:28:39.660 --> 00:28:41.039
you know it because you hear the train announcement

00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:45.819
every time. But we have English, Mandarin, Tamil,

00:28:45.980 --> 00:28:48.859
and Malay. We have four official languages. I

00:28:48.859 --> 00:28:52.259
mean, this is the definition of a multilingual,

00:28:52.359 --> 00:28:55.759
multicultural society. What's unique here as

00:28:55.759 --> 00:28:58.480
someone who is a linguistics researcher, soon

00:28:58.480 --> 00:29:00.799
to be doctor, and is doing research in this area?

00:29:00.859 --> 00:29:02.980
What's unique about Singapore versus the UK,

00:29:03.119 --> 00:29:05.789
the American context? We can't look at Singapore

00:29:05.789 --> 00:29:07.509
without taking into consideration the colonial

00:29:07.509 --> 00:29:16.029
history. English was a colonial gift. And it's

00:29:16.029 --> 00:29:19.069
Lee Kuan Yew who really attached to that and

00:29:19.069 --> 00:29:23.049
created significant language policies in Singapore

00:29:23.049 --> 00:29:27.690
to ensure that English would be the neutral language

00:29:27.690 --> 00:29:31.900
that would unite the cultures. And this is something

00:29:31.900 --> 00:29:34.079
that has been done throughout history in a number

00:29:34.079 --> 00:29:36.160
of the former colonies. We saw this happen in

00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:38.160
parts of India. We've seen it happen in different

00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:43.009
former African colonies. English is used as,

00:29:43.089 --> 00:29:45.490
well, now we have this language and we are not

00:29:45.490 --> 00:29:47.930
culturally attached to it. So therefore, we can

00:29:47.930 --> 00:29:50.289
use it as a neutral lingua franca, a common language

00:29:50.289 --> 00:29:54.029
to unite us, to build our own national heritage,

00:29:54.269 --> 00:29:57.849
right? But there was a lot that came with that.

00:29:57.930 --> 00:30:01.470
And truly, English has allowed Singapore to compete

00:30:01.470 --> 00:30:03.930
in a way that, for example, Malaysia said, no,

00:30:03.990 --> 00:30:06.089
we don't want English. And they gave it up. And

00:30:06.089 --> 00:30:07.990
look at the difference in the global standing

00:30:07.990 --> 00:30:09.609
and the way they've been able to compete in the

00:30:09.609 --> 00:30:12.480
world. This was very truly, Lee Kuan Yew was

00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:14.180
very specific. There's a whole book about Lee

00:30:14.180 --> 00:30:16.900
Kuan Yew's language policy and thoughts on it.

00:30:16.980 --> 00:30:20.000
And he also, because he was educated in the UK

00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:22.220
as well, he brought that back. And he was very

00:30:22.220 --> 00:30:24.579
clear that there was a very specific way that

00:30:24.579 --> 00:30:28.099
it must be spoken. Singlish or anything that

00:30:28.099 --> 00:30:31.339
was more of a pigeon or, you know, these horrible

00:30:31.339 --> 00:30:33.740
words that we have for colloquial varieties.

00:30:34.059 --> 00:30:36.140
But even today, there's so much discussion about

00:30:36.140 --> 00:30:39.720
Singlish. Is it appropriate? And even Singaporeans

00:30:39.720 --> 00:30:42.839
themselves have this internalized inferiority

00:30:42.839 --> 00:30:47.039
complex around their language that the way they

00:30:47.039 --> 00:30:49.289
speak. And that's no surprise. We've had. for

00:30:49.289 --> 00:30:52.369
20, now going on 26 years, the Speak Good English

00:30:52.369 --> 00:30:55.490
movement, telling them every single year, the

00:30:55.490 --> 00:30:58.470
way you speak is not good enough. So if, you

00:30:58.470 --> 00:31:01.230
know, the only good way is the British way, then

00:31:01.230 --> 00:31:04.470
how does Singapore English ever get accepted?

00:31:04.490 --> 00:31:06.970
And how do people feel that the way that they

00:31:06.970 --> 00:31:11.630
speak is professional and correct? So it's one

00:31:11.630 --> 00:31:14.500
of the only places in the world where They will

00:31:14.500 --> 00:31:16.940
look at Singapore English and still not feel

00:31:16.940 --> 00:31:19.640
a sense of solidarity necessarily with other

00:31:19.640 --> 00:31:22.740
people speaking, especially with Singlish. And

00:31:22.740 --> 00:31:27.460
they will give competence still to only a Western

00:31:27.460 --> 00:31:31.559
variety, usually British or American, or only

00:31:31.559 --> 00:31:35.539
perhaps standard Singapore English, which is

00:31:35.539 --> 00:31:40.740
very much British leaning. So the Singapore...

00:31:41.429 --> 00:31:43.210
relationship with the English language is actually

00:31:43.210 --> 00:31:48.990
very, very complex and quite interesting. But

00:31:48.990 --> 00:31:51.069
we do see now that it's getting harder and harder

00:31:51.069 --> 00:31:53.789
to hear the ethnic groupings within Singapore

00:31:53.789 --> 00:31:55.910
English. It used to be that you would be able

00:31:55.910 --> 00:31:57.990
to identify it a little more easily. And that

00:31:57.990 --> 00:32:02.329
seems to also be subtly shifting where... Which

00:32:02.329 --> 00:32:04.170
would show that maybe they're taking more ownership,

00:32:04.250 --> 00:32:06.049
but they do feel a sense of ownership over the

00:32:06.049 --> 00:32:07.789
language. And yet they still have a sense of

00:32:07.789 --> 00:32:10.190
inferiority that it's not good enough on a global

00:32:10.190 --> 00:32:14.730
stage, which allows, you know, people like me

00:32:14.730 --> 00:32:16.650
to come in and have a business on presentation

00:32:16.650 --> 00:32:19.670
skills and professional presence and articulation

00:32:19.670 --> 00:32:23.029
training and everything and build a massive business

00:32:23.029 --> 00:32:26.210
that a local could never have had. Right. Because

00:32:26.210 --> 00:32:30.130
for some reason, I look sound the way that they

00:32:30.130 --> 00:32:34.000
think. is more appropriate. But in reality, there's

00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:38.160
no difference. So how do we finally, you know,

00:32:38.160 --> 00:32:40.819
build that confidence in that Singapore English

00:32:40.819 --> 00:32:43.759
is, it's a real English. Linguistically speaking,

00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:46.359
it is just, it has its own standards, its own

00:32:46.359 --> 00:32:49.119
grammar, its own vocabulary, everything. Intonation

00:32:49.119 --> 00:32:51.980
patterns, it can be fully described like any

00:32:51.980 --> 00:32:54.660
other variety of English. And yet still, they're

00:32:54.660 --> 00:32:57.460
fighting to get the same acknowledgement globally

00:32:57.460 --> 00:33:01.039
and within business. And that's a constant struggle.

00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:04.960
I always joke that American English kind of like

00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:06.859
sharpened and shortened British English, right?

00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:09.779
It's like we don't need two L's in coloring or,

00:33:09.779 --> 00:33:12.039
you know, following whatever. We don't need the

00:33:12.039 --> 00:33:17.480
U in every other word. But then I think. If that's

00:33:17.480 --> 00:33:19.119
my argument for why American English is amazing,

00:33:19.599 --> 00:33:21.880
Singlish is the super version of that, right?

00:33:21.900 --> 00:33:24.819
Because it's super condensed and super efficient.

00:33:25.160 --> 00:33:27.920
I always say the most efficient people in the

00:33:27.920 --> 00:33:29.700
world, they even make their language the most

00:33:29.700 --> 00:33:31.900
efficient. No one's wasted. Everything they don't

00:33:31.900 --> 00:33:34.420
need, the endings. It's not neat because my husband

00:33:34.420 --> 00:33:37.799
does say to me, so sometimes, you know, if I'm

00:33:37.799 --> 00:33:39.700
like trying to, I don't know, phone a restaurant

00:33:39.700 --> 00:33:42.099
or speak to the cab driver, he's like, don't

00:33:42.099 --> 00:33:45.039
put in unnecessary words. Just keep it straightforward.

00:33:47.110 --> 00:33:49.329
So this is my husband, right? So my husband is

00:33:49.329 --> 00:33:51.250
Singaporean. So I have to say that I do tend

00:33:51.250 --> 00:33:54.609
toward the grammar police in my writing and,

00:33:54.630 --> 00:33:57.730
you know. He and I co -manage patients, for example.

00:33:57.890 --> 00:34:00.309
And so we co -author the summary consultations

00:34:00.309 --> 00:34:02.569
that we give to the patients. And I will not

00:34:02.569 --> 00:34:05.069
let him click send until I've read it. There's

00:34:05.069 --> 00:34:08.110
no way it's happening. Because for little grammar

00:34:08.110 --> 00:34:09.349
things, you know, whatever, because I have an

00:34:09.349 --> 00:34:11.369
eagle eye for that, but also just for spellings.

00:34:11.489 --> 00:34:14.170
And he always says, can we talk about how no

00:34:14.170 --> 00:34:16.449
one prepares you for how your skin changes in

00:34:16.449 --> 00:34:19.210
your 40s? Honestly, one day it's fine. The next

00:34:19.210 --> 00:34:22.449
it's dull, dry, and showing every single emotion

00:34:22.449 --> 00:34:24.380
you've ever felt. That's why I've actually been

00:34:24.380 --> 00:34:27.559
loving Love Indus. Their skincare actually feels

00:34:27.559 --> 00:34:29.840
like it's doing something. It's not just sitting

00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:32.500
on your face and looking sticky. It blends South

00:34:32.500 --> 00:34:34.619
Asian ingredients like ashwagandha and vegan

00:34:34.619 --> 00:34:37.519
ghee with proper New York dermatology tech. It's

00:34:37.519 --> 00:34:40.380
luxurious, but also very results driven. Their

00:34:40.380 --> 00:34:42.719
line limiter is especially good if you're starting,

00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:45.579
like me, to notice lip or laugh lines. People

00:34:45.579 --> 00:34:48.260
compare it to Botox, which I would happily take

00:34:48.260 --> 00:34:50.690
after all those needles in my face. And our listeners

00:34:50.690 --> 00:34:54.230
get the highest discount they offer, 21 % off

00:34:54.230 --> 00:34:58.989
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00:34:58.989 --> 00:35:01.150
free to Singapore, which seems like a very rare

00:35:01.150 --> 00:35:03.670
little treat. And yes, we earn commission when

00:35:03.670 --> 00:35:05.989
you use our code. So don't forget to support

00:35:05.989 --> 00:35:10.170
the show by using code TFF. Amanda, because I'll

00:35:10.170 --> 00:35:12.469
spend hours making it perfect, right? And he'll

00:35:12.469 --> 00:35:15.210
be like, Amanda, is it more important that it's

00:35:15.210 --> 00:35:18.159
perfect and correct? or more important that the

00:35:18.159 --> 00:35:21.039
patient understands? And I've been told this

00:35:21.039 --> 00:35:23.139
in various ways, by the way, in terms of communication.

00:35:23.360 --> 00:35:27.079
Is it more important to be right or to be understood

00:35:27.079 --> 00:35:30.480
to your point previously to leave that conversation

00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:32.659
with a sense of connection? Yeah. What's your

00:35:32.659 --> 00:35:34.679
opinion on that? Yes. Yeah. That's one of the

00:35:34.679 --> 00:35:36.460
main things I say is that it's about connection,

00:35:36.579 --> 00:35:38.719
not perfection. That's the whole goal of communication.

00:35:39.469 --> 00:35:42.210
The whole point is to be understood and to understand.

00:35:42.389 --> 00:35:45.670
It's not about using all your flowery words and

00:35:45.670 --> 00:35:49.050
sounding super eloquent. And that can be hard

00:35:49.050 --> 00:35:52.630
for a lot of us who grow up in communication,

00:35:52.750 --> 00:35:56.349
who pride ourselves and a huge part of our identity.

00:35:56.750 --> 00:35:58.530
is the way that we speak. I mean, like I said

00:35:58.530 --> 00:36:00.050
- You took my sports analogies away when I was

00:36:00.050 --> 00:36:01.809
watching your TED Talk. I was like, no, sports

00:36:01.809 --> 00:36:04.849
analogies are the cornerstone of American communication.

00:36:05.170 --> 00:36:08.369
How dare you? I know, right? Think of all the

00:36:08.369 --> 00:36:10.369
words we had to learn for the SATs. We pride

00:36:10.369 --> 00:36:12.429
ourselves on our large vocabularies and that's

00:36:12.429 --> 00:36:15.610
a signal of education and of status. And then

00:36:15.610 --> 00:36:19.010
you move abroad. And I moved to Denmark and I

00:36:19.010 --> 00:36:23.869
literally mourned my vocabulary. I was like -

00:36:24.170 --> 00:36:28.809
Really sad to let go of all these flowery, amazing

00:36:28.809 --> 00:36:31.769
words I had learned that said so much about my

00:36:31.769 --> 00:36:34.809
background and education and status because no

00:36:34.809 --> 00:36:37.289
one understood them. And what is the point if

00:36:37.289 --> 00:36:39.389
no one understands me, you know, until I finally

00:36:39.389 --> 00:36:41.010
learned enough Danish that I could communicate.

00:36:41.070 --> 00:36:43.989
But in the beginning, I learned really quickly,

00:36:44.150 --> 00:36:46.409
OK, this isn't going to work, even though, you

00:36:46.409 --> 00:36:48.389
know, the level of English in Denmark is amazing.

00:36:48.449 --> 00:36:53.130
But still, it's not academic. words I was trying

00:36:53.130 --> 00:36:55.550
to use. And so I learned very, very quickly,

00:36:55.590 --> 00:36:57.829
no, it's much more important that they can understand

00:36:57.829 --> 00:36:59.789
me. So I'm going to simplify the language. I'm

00:36:59.789 --> 00:37:01.869
going to speak slower. There are a lot of certain

00:37:01.869 --> 00:37:04.789
things we need to do. Drop the idioms, the phrases,

00:37:04.849 --> 00:37:08.690
the sports analogies, because they're cultural.

00:37:08.889 --> 00:37:11.730
They carry culture. And we can have a certain

00:37:11.730 --> 00:37:14.130
expectation that people understand our words,

00:37:14.230 --> 00:37:16.269
but we can't expect them to understand cultural

00:37:16.269 --> 00:37:21.159
references. And we forget that, especially if

00:37:21.159 --> 00:37:23.820
we've never learned foreign languages. So I see

00:37:23.820 --> 00:37:25.639
a big difference between the monolingual English

00:37:25.639 --> 00:37:28.619
speakers and multilinguals, because when you've

00:37:28.619 --> 00:37:30.780
learned foreign languages, you understand what

00:37:30.780 --> 00:37:32.500
it's like to go through that process of needing

00:37:32.500 --> 00:37:34.880
to translate something very quickly or finding

00:37:34.880 --> 00:37:37.579
the right word or being a little uncomfortable

00:37:37.579 --> 00:37:40.360
about your pronunciation. And you just have a

00:37:40.360 --> 00:37:42.260
different understanding, whereas a lot of times

00:37:42.260 --> 00:37:43.880
monolinguals who have never gone through that

00:37:43.880 --> 00:37:46.320
don't really realize. what's going on inside

00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:48.280
their head as they're trying to get that sentence

00:37:48.280 --> 00:37:50.980
out. As the resident monolingual in this room.

00:37:51.099 --> 00:37:53.519
Hello. Hi, friends. I hear what you're saying.

00:37:53.579 --> 00:37:56.079
And I think that part of your message, and that's

00:37:56.079 --> 00:37:58.320
a misunderstanding, is that it's not so much

00:37:58.320 --> 00:38:01.619
about, you know, people who don't have English

00:38:01.619 --> 00:38:04.500
as a first language standardizing their accents.

00:38:04.940 --> 00:38:07.730
It's about monolinguists. people with English

00:38:07.730 --> 00:38:11.030
as a first language, recognizing others' accents

00:38:11.030 --> 00:38:13.429
and being able to adapt. What are some tips that

00:38:13.429 --> 00:38:18.610
you can offer to, you know, monolinguistic, monolingual

00:38:18.610 --> 00:38:21.849
English speakers like myself or just English

00:38:21.849 --> 00:38:25.150
speaker, native English speakers when negotiating

00:38:25.150 --> 00:38:30.820
business, social life? Life overseas the first

00:38:30.820 --> 00:38:33.519
time. So putting yourself back, what, 23 years

00:38:33.519 --> 00:38:35.420
ago, you know, the first time that you were in.

00:38:35.460 --> 00:38:37.599
And I came to Singapore. I think it was most

00:38:37.599 --> 00:38:39.300
shocking for me when I came to Singapore. And

00:38:39.300 --> 00:38:41.840
this is what always happens. You hear, well,

00:38:41.900 --> 00:38:44.679
they speak English there. Yeah. So you don't

00:38:44.679 --> 00:38:46.360
stop to think that they don't speak your English.

00:38:46.820 --> 00:38:49.980
So I get off the plane and I realized really

00:38:49.980 --> 00:38:52.500
quickly when I'm walking into the first classroom

00:38:52.500 --> 00:38:55.980
where I'm supposed to be teaching certain pilots.

00:38:56.920 --> 00:39:00.500
at a certain airline in Singapore, how to do

00:39:00.500 --> 00:39:02.340
better public announcements. And I'm sitting

00:39:02.340 --> 00:39:04.039
in the first few lessons because I arrived a

00:39:04.039 --> 00:39:06.239
little too late and a different trainer had started

00:39:06.239 --> 00:39:08.880
the course. And I was listening going, oh my

00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:10.340
gosh, how am I going to teach this course? I

00:39:10.340 --> 00:39:13.210
can't understand anything they're saying. And

00:39:13.210 --> 00:39:15.510
I thought, how is this possible? I'm educated

00:39:15.510 --> 00:39:18.110
in linguistics. I understand how languages work.

00:39:18.210 --> 00:39:20.909
I know. Why can't I understand what they're saying?

00:39:21.090 --> 00:39:25.449
And I had to immediately dive into getting contact,

00:39:25.530 --> 00:39:28.909
contact, contact. So listening to as much authentic

00:39:28.909 --> 00:39:32.269
Singapore English as possible. Go to the hawker

00:39:32.269 --> 00:39:34.449
centers, talk to people, make friends, local

00:39:34.449 --> 00:39:37.050
friends, listen to the language so that you can

00:39:37.050 --> 00:39:40.340
start picking out the patterns. People think

00:39:40.340 --> 00:39:42.460
that accents are so difficult. A lot of that

00:39:42.460 --> 00:39:44.400
is psychological. We have a lot of research on

00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:46.059
this. We don't know exactly the process, but

00:39:46.059 --> 00:39:48.739
there is a portion of that that comes down to

00:39:48.739 --> 00:39:52.239
an accent's hard to understand. I don't want

00:39:52.239 --> 00:39:54.019
to put in the effort. I'm going to shut down.

00:39:54.980 --> 00:39:59.239
You have to override that system and say, I can

00:39:59.239 --> 00:40:02.159
learn how to understand an accent. It's actually

00:40:02.159 --> 00:40:05.579
a very simple process. Every time I want to hear

00:40:05.579 --> 00:40:09.280
a TH sound, it's going to be a T or a D. And

00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:10.619
guess what? If it's at the end of a word, it's

00:40:10.619 --> 00:40:15.079
an F. So it's very specific. And every single

00:40:15.079 --> 00:40:17.360
time it will be that way. When you want to hear

00:40:17.360 --> 00:40:19.300
a certain vowel, I mean, I don't know if you

00:40:19.300 --> 00:40:24.840
say bath or bath. I say bath. And so now I know

00:40:24.840 --> 00:40:27.079
that if you say bath, you probably say path and

00:40:27.079 --> 00:40:30.059
you probably say all of those sounds. And I will

00:40:30.059 --> 00:40:31.760
be able to tune my ear to that really, really

00:40:31.760 --> 00:40:35.530
quickly. made that association. The problem is

00:40:35.530 --> 00:40:38.050
we typically are not taught to do this. It's

00:40:38.050 --> 00:40:40.349
a skill set we never learn. We're thrown out

00:40:40.349 --> 00:40:43.130
in the world and it's like, go and talk. Especially

00:40:43.130 --> 00:40:45.849
monolinguals. This is hitting home because as

00:40:45.849 --> 00:40:48.030
someone who's never learned a second language,

00:40:48.070 --> 00:40:50.030
it feels like this insurmountable challenge or

00:40:50.030 --> 00:40:52.010
it feels like this new thing that I have to use

00:40:52.010 --> 00:40:55.630
resources to do. And there's an extra level of

00:40:55.630 --> 00:40:58.889
frustration that comes with it when you're trying

00:40:58.889 --> 00:41:02.010
to complete a task. So you're in a work setting,

00:41:02.090 --> 00:41:04.570
you're trying to get a job done, and then you're

00:41:04.570 --> 00:41:06.989
having difficulty understanding someone and the

00:41:06.989 --> 00:41:09.710
frustration immediately rises. So the first time

00:41:09.710 --> 00:41:11.710
I was ever calling a call center, when my computer,

00:41:11.909 --> 00:41:14.190
my first computer ever in college is crashing

00:41:14.190 --> 00:41:17.610
on me and I have to call Microsoft and I'm redirected

00:41:17.610 --> 00:41:20.250
to somebody in India and I can't understand,

00:41:20.309 --> 00:41:22.610
and I'm already angry and then they can't help

00:41:22.610 --> 00:41:25.449
me and I can't understand them. And so all these

00:41:25.449 --> 00:41:28.050
emotions sit in me. And then what happens the

00:41:28.050 --> 00:41:31.989
day I meet? an Indian English speaker years later

00:41:31.989 --> 00:41:35.710
who is working in my company. And suddenly that

00:41:35.710 --> 00:41:38.789
frustration rises and it's like, oh, it's another,

00:41:38.949 --> 00:41:42.230
you know, it's so, so easy for this to happen.

00:41:42.269 --> 00:41:45.269
And it sits in us our whole life. And until you

00:41:45.269 --> 00:41:47.570
can recognize what those biases are that you

00:41:47.570 --> 00:41:50.690
carry, and it doesn't help that all of our media

00:41:50.690 --> 00:41:55.079
raises us. and gives us these messages of what

00:41:55.079 --> 00:41:57.960
these accents mean. The Simpsons, there's the

00:41:57.960 --> 00:42:00.760
Indian shopkeeper that isn't even an actual Indian

00:42:00.760 --> 00:42:03.599
voice. White guy. Oh, is it really? Yeah, totally

00:42:03.599 --> 00:42:05.679
fake. I mean, yeah. I would actually think. Apu

00:42:05.679 --> 00:42:08.500
Natsupima Petalong is in fact a white voice actor.

00:42:08.739 --> 00:42:12.860
Yes. And even look at what we feed our children.

00:42:12.980 --> 00:42:15.639
The Lion King. That's one of my favorites. We've

00:42:15.639 --> 00:42:19.159
got, you know, these two lions in Africa. And

00:42:19.159 --> 00:42:21.940
one is the hero lion, and he speaks perfect Hollywood

00:42:21.940 --> 00:42:25.820
English. And then we've got his brother. Oh,

00:42:25.820 --> 00:42:30.420
yeah. His brother, who is the bad guy, the villain.

00:42:30.679 --> 00:42:32.780
And he's British. Oh, the British are always

00:42:32.780 --> 00:42:35.480
the bad guys. I was going to bring that up. Yeah,

00:42:35.480 --> 00:42:37.739
Scar. He's British. How did these two brothers

00:42:37.739 --> 00:42:39.579
end up with totally different accents? Well,

00:42:39.619 --> 00:42:41.559
I mean, one went to Cambridge, and that's obviously

00:42:41.559 --> 00:42:45.670
how they became English. Isn't it funny though?

00:42:45.849 --> 00:42:48.250
I mean, that's our cultural touch points. They're

00:42:48.250 --> 00:42:49.530
all British villains. It's not just Disney though.

00:42:49.570 --> 00:42:52.190
I feel like anytime there's a bad guy, he's a

00:42:52.190 --> 00:42:54.849
British guy. Yeah. Although recently they've

00:42:54.849 --> 00:42:56.610
started to become sexy doctors. Oh, they have.

00:42:56.610 --> 00:42:59.429
I mean, it can go either way. Again, you know,

00:42:59.449 --> 00:43:02.309
accents can be used for good. We do love a good,

00:43:02.389 --> 00:43:04.170
sexy British accent. We do love a British accent.

00:43:04.170 --> 00:43:05.869
We do love a British accent in America. Even

00:43:05.869 --> 00:43:09.780
the ones that you would think are. oh i don't

00:43:09.780 --> 00:43:12.280
like that that's awful that's so uneducated all

00:43:12.280 --> 00:43:14.739
of those social assignments that you give to

00:43:14.739 --> 00:43:19.260
those uh probably northern accents in america

00:43:19.260 --> 00:43:21.920
they can they're amazing yeah yeah my mom listens

00:43:21.920 --> 00:43:23.860
to this show because she likes to support me

00:43:23.860 --> 00:43:25.739
but because she likes to hear jasmine's voice

00:43:25.739 --> 00:43:31.019
thank you thanks mom yeah so it's it's really

00:43:31.019 --> 00:43:35.159
incredible the way we're socialized and um and

00:43:35.159 --> 00:43:37.699
then the way that we identify immediately someone

00:43:37.699 --> 00:43:40.000
being different from ourselves. So how we identify

00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:42.079
ourselves, what categories we place for ourselves

00:43:42.079 --> 00:43:44.760
socially, and then what in and out groups we

00:43:44.760 --> 00:43:47.460
create. And so one of the things I really want

00:43:47.460 --> 00:43:49.739
to dig into in the PhD is to look at, okay, so

00:43:49.739 --> 00:43:52.179
for those of us who live internationally and

00:43:52.179 --> 00:43:55.119
are in these mixed environments, are our own

00:43:55.119 --> 00:43:57.639
self -categorizations maybe a little more broad?

00:43:58.440 --> 00:44:03.159
Do we maybe not judge people as negatively because

00:44:03.159 --> 00:44:05.599
we consider ourselves maybe more in the same

00:44:05.599 --> 00:44:09.300
category? So, for example, in the expat world,

00:44:09.539 --> 00:44:12.219
will we instead of categorizing you as British

00:44:12.219 --> 00:44:14.119
and me as American? Well, we're both expats.

00:44:14.119 --> 00:44:18.909
So therefore, maybe my. assessment of your accent

00:44:18.909 --> 00:44:21.170
will be different because I've put us in the

00:44:21.170 --> 00:44:23.269
same in -group instead of placing you as someone

00:44:23.269 --> 00:44:26.190
who's different. So how are we defining our social

00:44:26.190 --> 00:44:29.309
identities? And then how does that impact how

00:44:29.309 --> 00:44:32.349
we are assessing people based on how they sound?

00:44:32.510 --> 00:44:35.429
And we just don't know a lot about that yet.

00:44:35.690 --> 00:44:38.150
And I guess the way we sound is, like you said,

00:44:38.190 --> 00:44:40.409
our identity. Some people turn around and ask

00:44:40.409 --> 00:44:42.570
me, are you Australian? I'll be like, no, I'm

00:44:42.570 --> 00:44:46.510
British. And I feel like Not that it's an attack

00:44:46.510 --> 00:44:49.309
on my identity, but it is my identity. It is

00:44:49.309 --> 00:44:51.849
who I am. Yeah. And it's funny. We're incredibly

00:44:51.849 --> 00:44:54.789
bad at identifying accents. Incredibly bad at

00:44:54.789 --> 00:44:55.750
it. When you say we, you mean people or you mean

00:44:55.750 --> 00:44:58.030
Americans? Everyone. Okay, everyone. Thank you.

00:44:58.050 --> 00:45:00.190
Everyone is very, very bad at identifying accents.

00:45:00.389 --> 00:45:03.409
I have had people call me and say, I really,

00:45:03.429 --> 00:45:04.829
really want to work with you because I really

00:45:04.829 --> 00:45:07.449
want a British accent just like yours. Wow. Wow.

00:45:08.010 --> 00:45:12.210
Sorry to disappoint you. And I also get constantly

00:45:12.210 --> 00:45:15.679
asked if I'm Australian. me it's like really

00:45:15.679 --> 00:45:19.010
do you think how do you not hear it. But, but

00:45:19.010 --> 00:45:21.809
even for me, I can get confused British and Australian

00:45:21.809 --> 00:45:24.269
or Australian, New Zealand. It's so clear to

00:45:24.269 --> 00:45:26.650
them. I think I figured out the American Canadian.

00:45:26.789 --> 00:45:29.409
Give us your, give us your. Okay. So I feel like

00:45:29.409 --> 00:45:31.590
the Canadians are a little bit slower and they

00:45:31.590 --> 00:45:35.389
do prolong certain words a little bit more because

00:45:35.389 --> 00:45:36.809
I've got a Canadian cousin. So I'm trying to

00:45:36.809 --> 00:45:38.690
think how he does it, but I know I can't do it

00:45:38.690 --> 00:45:40.730
myself, but I can hear it. So I can hear it,

00:45:40.750 --> 00:45:42.849
but I can't tell New Zealand or Australian. Okay.

00:45:43.429 --> 00:45:45.980
Whenever I do my New Zealand accent. I always

00:45:45.980 --> 00:45:47.820
get told that it sounds Australian. And I was

00:45:47.820 --> 00:45:49.519
like, no, but it's like, cause like all I can

00:45:49.519 --> 00:45:53.820
hear, it's open your nose. And then all the Australians

00:45:53.820 --> 00:45:55.440
are like, all the New Zealanders are like, that's

00:45:55.440 --> 00:45:56.860
what the Australians sound like. And I was like,

00:45:56.860 --> 00:45:58.059
are you sure though? Cause that's like how I

00:45:58.059 --> 00:46:00.599
sound. Anyway, you know, teach them. Again, I'll

00:46:00.599 --> 00:46:03.059
take their authority on it. And I mean, I'm horrible

00:46:03.059 --> 00:46:06.380
at imitating accents. I can't do it at all. I'm

00:46:06.380 --> 00:46:09.460
really, really bad at it. I have a lot of difficulty

00:46:09.460 --> 00:46:12.860
identifying them. And so what happens when we

00:46:12.860 --> 00:46:16.260
misidentify an accent, right? So a lot of people

00:46:16.260 --> 00:46:19.059
will, and I don't know if they're just trying

00:46:19.059 --> 00:46:22.099
to be nice, but they will normally ask me if

00:46:22.099 --> 00:46:24.480
I'm Canadian. And there are some commonalities

00:46:24.480 --> 00:46:28.219
between California English and a specific area

00:46:28.219 --> 00:46:31.519
of Canada where there's a bit of a closeness.

00:46:31.679 --> 00:46:35.659
And one of the things is that the T's are a little

00:46:35.659 --> 00:46:37.940
crisper. in the Canadian, which is something

00:46:37.940 --> 00:46:40.820
I've consciously changed in my speech. I doubt

00:46:40.820 --> 00:46:42.739
I'm doing it today because you're going to bring

00:46:42.739 --> 00:46:46.519
out my American. I'm here to help. Yeah. And

00:46:46.519 --> 00:46:48.719
there's some cool linguistic stuff on that as

00:46:48.719 --> 00:46:50.699
well, why that happens. I'm Canadian because

00:46:50.699 --> 00:46:53.699
I've added these really crisp T's. But one reason

00:46:53.699 --> 00:46:55.340
I've done that is because there have been some

00:46:55.340 --> 00:46:57.280
linguistic studies showing that that is an important

00:46:57.280 --> 00:47:00.900
sound for intelligibility. If we say water instead

00:47:00.900 --> 00:47:04.880
of water and international instead of international.

00:47:06.239 --> 00:47:09.639
Those very simple little sounds, because for

00:47:09.639 --> 00:47:12.239
those who have learned a language know, there's

00:47:12.239 --> 00:47:14.340
that period where you're really listening to

00:47:14.340 --> 00:47:15.840
all those sounds and you're trying to write it

00:47:15.840 --> 00:47:17.239
out in your head and figure out the word and

00:47:17.239 --> 00:47:19.780
get it and translate it. And if half the letters

00:47:19.780 --> 00:47:22.300
are missing, it's really difficult to recognize.

00:47:22.440 --> 00:47:25.519
And it's the same thing for the R sound. So for

00:47:25.519 --> 00:47:28.420
your non -rhotic is what we say when you don't

00:47:28.420 --> 00:47:31.139
use that R, it can be difficult. You know, the

00:47:31.139 --> 00:47:33.239
first time I was in a taxi here and he said he

00:47:33.239 --> 00:47:35.690
was going to drop me at the car park. And I'm

00:47:35.690 --> 00:47:37.309
going, what the heck is a kapak? And we don't

00:47:37.309 --> 00:47:40.090
even use car park in American, right? But kapak,

00:47:40.110 --> 00:47:42.389
kapak. I'm like, is he speaking Chinese? What

00:47:42.389 --> 00:47:45.869
word is this? I was so, and if he had said a

00:47:45.869 --> 00:47:48.750
parking garage or, you know, in the parking lot,

00:47:48.889 --> 00:47:51.610
anything, but I didn't know the word. And then

00:47:51.610 --> 00:47:53.630
I couldn't identify the letters because I was

00:47:53.630 --> 00:47:57.590
hearing K -A -H -P -O -K. And I was trying to

00:47:57.590 --> 00:47:59.590
spell it, couldn't catch it. My parents are always

00:47:59.590 --> 00:48:02.840
my wonderful touch point on. what singlish is

00:48:02.840 --> 00:48:04.679
like meaning like how like i'm like oh yeah i

00:48:04.679 --> 00:48:07.159
hear so that's that's a common one is is pork

00:48:07.159 --> 00:48:10.480
is like puck puck you want chicken or puck yeah

00:48:10.480 --> 00:48:12.820
and my parents like they still they still struggle

00:48:12.820 --> 00:48:14.179
with it they're like what's the other thing and

00:48:14.179 --> 00:48:16.679
i was like it's pork guys it's pork we're in

00:48:16.679 --> 00:48:18.460
a chinese restaurant it's always pork okay so

00:48:18.460 --> 00:48:20.039
that's definitely the other thing whenever the

00:48:20.039 --> 00:48:21.739
other the other option is there if it's meat

00:48:22.039 --> 00:48:24.420
It's pork, right? If it's not chicken, it's pork.

00:48:24.539 --> 00:48:26.559
Yeah, it's never beef. It's never beef, dude.

00:48:26.619 --> 00:48:29.300
It's pork. Let's just let it hang. And also the

00:48:29.300 --> 00:48:32.840
D sound I feel. So Goodwood Park Hotel is where

00:48:32.840 --> 00:48:34.340
I used to stay a lot when I would come to visit

00:48:34.340 --> 00:48:36.500
Singapore in the early 2000s. And I had to get

00:48:36.500 --> 00:48:38.460
used to saying Google Park, Google Park. Because

00:48:38.460 --> 00:48:39.840
if you go in the cab and go, I'd like to go to

00:48:39.840 --> 00:48:41.420
the Goodwood Park Hotel. They're like, I have

00:48:41.420 --> 00:48:43.579
no idea. The cab's like, I've never heard of

00:48:43.579 --> 00:48:44.900
it. And if you're like, I want to go to the Google

00:48:44.900 --> 00:48:46.670
Park, they're like. I'm bringing you Scott's

00:48:46.670 --> 00:48:48.730
road, you know? So there's, there's things that,

00:48:48.750 --> 00:48:50.969
yeah, you have to just, you, you hear it once,

00:48:51.070 --> 00:48:53.349
then you, then it's like, you never forget it.

00:48:53.369 --> 00:48:54.730
And then you understand that, okay, maybe if

00:48:54.730 --> 00:48:57.730
that D sound isn't in set in Goodwood, maybe

00:48:57.730 --> 00:49:00.349
that sound is also, you know, underemphasized

00:49:00.349 --> 00:49:02.070
in different words. And then it becomes easier.

00:49:02.800 --> 00:49:04.960
yeah get through so it's about really listening

00:49:04.960 --> 00:49:06.719
for those patterns because it's all just pattern

00:49:06.719 --> 00:49:10.659
recognition and the same sounds will be switched

00:49:10.659 --> 00:49:12.960
out and once you know what those are it becomes

00:49:12.960 --> 00:49:16.039
so much easier to understand and then you aren't

00:49:16.039 --> 00:49:18.500
using so many resources and then you don't feel

00:49:18.500 --> 00:49:20.380
so exhausted at the end of a conversation and

00:49:20.380 --> 00:49:22.679
then you know it's like if you back to your point

00:49:22.679 --> 00:49:25.119
about taking the time to identify patterns and

00:49:25.119 --> 00:49:29.400
learn That also helps you. It saves you a lot

00:49:29.400 --> 00:49:31.820
of unnecessary stress. It does. It does. Well,

00:49:31.820 --> 00:49:33.179
we're going to save you some stress. We have

00:49:33.179 --> 00:49:35.000
a fun little segment here that ends the show

00:49:35.000 --> 00:49:37.219
called Hot or Hype. And so we're going to give

00:49:37.219 --> 00:49:39.460
you kind of some hot topics in what we perceive

00:49:39.460 --> 00:49:42.239
to be in linguistics. And then you give us a,

00:49:42.300 --> 00:49:44.739
you know, one word, couple sentences answer to

00:49:44.739 --> 00:49:46.199
those things, whether you think they're hot or

00:49:46.199 --> 00:49:49.960
hype. Changing how you speak based on who's listening.

00:49:50.460 --> 00:49:54.199
Hot. That one's hot. Yeah. We want to be doing

00:49:54.199 --> 00:49:56.599
that. We want to be adaptable. We should be adaptable.

00:49:56.619 --> 00:49:59.659
That's key. Absolutely. Corporate jargon. Put

00:49:59.659 --> 00:50:03.440
a pin in it. Thank goodness. Stop it. I'm over

00:50:03.440 --> 00:50:05.900
it, girl. I need that to be hype. Because again,

00:50:05.960 --> 00:50:07.460
as someone who's not in the corporate world,

00:50:07.619 --> 00:50:10.139
it is those things I hate adapting to those.

00:50:10.679 --> 00:50:13.000
Voice notes. I know everybody thinks they're

00:50:13.000 --> 00:50:14.900
hype. I hate voice notes. You hate voice notes

00:50:14.900 --> 00:50:18.619
too? I actually pre -screened. I was like, if

00:50:18.619 --> 00:50:20.019
she didn't say hype on this, I'm not asking.

00:50:20.519 --> 00:50:25.000
I hate it. Tell us why you do, because I want

00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:27.219
a linguist to back me up here. Well, I don't

00:50:27.219 --> 00:50:29.139
know if this is at all anything based in linguistics.

00:50:30.199 --> 00:50:32.960
I want Heather to back me up here. But my personal

00:50:32.960 --> 00:50:36.320
opinion is that people do not know how to be

00:50:36.320 --> 00:50:41.840
succinct in a voice note. And they ramble. When

00:50:41.840 --> 00:50:43.619
you are typing it and you're forced to type it

00:50:43.619 --> 00:50:45.400
with your finger, it's a lot shorter. Oh, and

00:50:45.400 --> 00:50:47.739
it's just what you want to say, right? Yes. And

00:50:47.739 --> 00:50:50.159
I'm around people all the time. I have my kids,

00:50:50.239 --> 00:50:52.820
my husband, my this, I don't. have time to stop

00:50:52.820 --> 00:50:56.099
and listen to someone or if it's, you know, out

00:50:56.099 --> 00:50:58.320
loud and other people hear it, I don't know what's

00:50:58.320 --> 00:51:00.659
going to be on it. So even when people send me

00:51:00.659 --> 00:51:02.420
voice notes, I never listened to them. I now

00:51:02.420 --> 00:51:04.280
look at the translate, not the trans, the transcription.

00:51:04.619 --> 00:51:06.480
Is that a transcription? What's happening? How

00:51:06.480 --> 00:51:08.320
does transcription? Did you know this? I did.

00:51:08.340 --> 00:51:10.659
Yes. Cause everyone knows I hate voice notes.

00:51:10.679 --> 00:51:12.320
So I had a bunch of people hit me on my social

00:51:12.320 --> 00:51:13.659
media, be like, you know, you can transcribe

00:51:13.659 --> 00:51:16.039
it now. And I was like, yeah. And then that's

00:51:16.039 --> 00:51:19.280
where you can see the rambling by the way. Because

00:51:19.280 --> 00:51:22.260
your next voice note, my dear, transcribe it

00:51:22.260 --> 00:51:24.559
and see how unbearably long it looks in text.

00:51:24.559 --> 00:51:26.820
I mean, it's funny because I remember once I

00:51:26.820 --> 00:51:28.460
think I was trying to call you and you were busy

00:51:28.460 --> 00:51:29.820
and you're like, just send it to me in a voice

00:51:29.820 --> 00:51:31.260
note. I was like, wow, are you going to listen

00:51:31.260 --> 00:51:34.159
to that? I must be really busy. That's how you

00:51:34.159 --> 00:51:36.179
know I was at the end of my rope. But you can

00:51:36.179 --> 00:51:38.920
also tell really clearly the bias that's built

00:51:38.920 --> 00:51:41.840
into AI when you do the transcription of voice

00:51:41.840 --> 00:51:44.800
notes. Oh, wow. Because the AI can only understand

00:51:44.800 --> 00:51:48.449
certain accents. Oh, yeah. So, I mean, Australian

00:51:48.449 --> 00:51:51.190
friends, I get half of it. Singapore friends,

00:51:51.389 --> 00:51:53.670
not even half of it. But if you get an American

00:51:53.670 --> 00:51:56.030
or a Brit, those are perfectly transcribed. And

00:51:56.030 --> 00:51:58.369
surprisingly, even women are hit by that. This

00:51:58.369 --> 00:52:00.389
is changing quite quickly. But there was a time

00:52:00.389 --> 00:52:03.130
where the automatic subtitles on YouTube, women

00:52:03.130 --> 00:52:06.440
were transcribed. Less reliably than men. No

00:52:06.440 --> 00:52:08.659
way. That's interesting. So it all has to do

00:52:08.659 --> 00:52:11.320
with what is being trained. The language that

00:52:11.320 --> 00:52:13.179
goes in is the language that comes out. And if

00:52:13.179 --> 00:52:15.500
your language doesn't go in, well, guess what?

00:52:15.619 --> 00:52:18.460
It's not going to come out. And that's a huge,

00:52:18.559 --> 00:52:20.719
huge, huge, huge issue in AI right now and the

00:52:20.719 --> 00:52:22.860
AI developments that most of those developers

00:52:22.860 --> 00:52:24.480
are not paying attention to because they haven't

00:52:24.480 --> 00:52:26.159
thought about it. And well, and that leads into

00:52:26.159 --> 00:52:29.099
my final hotter hype for you, which is women

00:52:29.099 --> 00:52:33.500
masculinizing their communication style. in order

00:52:33.500 --> 00:52:36.599
to appear more powerful or competent. I want

00:52:36.599 --> 00:52:38.860
to say hype. At the same time, though, there's

00:52:38.860 --> 00:52:42.519
that hypocrisy we've talked about where what

00:52:42.519 --> 00:52:44.320
are you trying to achieve? Are you in a room

00:52:44.320 --> 00:52:48.440
full of men? Then make the choice to adapt your

00:52:48.440 --> 00:52:50.179
behaviors just as we would adapt when speaking

00:52:50.179 --> 00:52:53.119
to someone. Adapt the behavior for that moment

00:52:53.119 --> 00:52:55.780
to get what you need and want, and then go back

00:52:55.780 --> 00:52:58.300
to your default. So I know that that is effective,

00:52:58.420 --> 00:53:01.480
and I know we're not at a place yet. If ever

00:53:01.480 --> 00:53:04.239
where that's going to fully change. As long as

00:53:04.239 --> 00:53:06.019
we're sitting in rooms full of men making decisions,

00:53:06.179 --> 00:53:08.659
we are going to have to continue to adapt to

00:53:08.659 --> 00:53:10.699
have our voices heard. If we can start shifting

00:53:10.699 --> 00:53:12.960
that, which I know we are and we are doing and

00:53:12.960 --> 00:53:16.480
we will continue to do, then we can start showing

00:53:16.480 --> 00:53:18.519
up. a little bit more authentically. I'm going

00:53:18.519 --> 00:53:21.099
to ask a really silly question. What is masculinizing?

00:53:22.139 --> 00:53:24.519
If you're speaking to a guy or a group of men.

00:53:24.519 --> 00:53:26.820
Lowering your voice. Oh, is it? It's like choosing

00:53:26.820 --> 00:53:29.760
to speak lower. As opposed to speak, if your

00:53:29.760 --> 00:53:31.760
natural voice was here, but you choose to put

00:53:31.760 --> 00:53:34.039
it here. Oh, okay. Because in my head, I'm like,

00:53:34.039 --> 00:53:35.460
what, you just go around and call them all, I

00:53:35.460 --> 00:53:38.400
don't know, bitches. I was just like, how does

00:53:38.400 --> 00:53:42.679
that work? No, the voice thing is a bit, I mean,

00:53:42.699 --> 00:53:45.599
Margaret Thatcher was accused of this. And it

00:53:45.599 --> 00:53:49.000
was her sort of, you know, people that were close

00:53:49.000 --> 00:53:51.019
to her that were men that were telling her, you

00:53:51.019 --> 00:53:52.539
really need to, you know, lower your voice to

00:53:52.539 --> 00:53:55.000
sound more authoritative. Smile less. Smile less.

00:53:55.079 --> 00:53:57.699
Right. So look more stern. The way we sit, the

00:53:57.699 --> 00:54:02.429
way we take up more space, be louder. Talk faster.

00:54:02.530 --> 00:54:04.989
All of these things that are related to those

00:54:04.989 --> 00:54:08.730
powerful markers tend to be on the more masculine

00:54:08.730 --> 00:54:11.349
side. Kate Mason. Are you familiar with Dr. Kate

00:54:11.349 --> 00:54:14.590
Mason being with your debate history? Australia's

00:54:14.590 --> 00:54:17.860
national debate. champion from back in the day.

00:54:17.900 --> 00:54:19.980
She's in our age group. Anyway, she just recently

00:54:19.980 --> 00:54:21.519
published a book called Powerfully Likeable.

00:54:21.619 --> 00:54:23.780
There's a whole chapter on masculine -feminine

00:54:23.780 --> 00:54:26.360
communication and there's a list. So she literally

00:54:26.360 --> 00:54:29.099
does a left and right situation. And kind of

00:54:29.099 --> 00:54:32.980
a fun fact, her solution is to take one of the

00:54:32.980 --> 00:54:35.460
masculine ones and one of the feminine ones and

00:54:35.460 --> 00:54:38.519
put them together and see if you can create a

00:54:38.519 --> 00:54:40.719
communication style that feels authentic that

00:54:40.719 --> 00:54:45.230
melds those two worlds. So one might be powerfully

00:54:45.230 --> 00:54:49.070
compassionate for example and then how what does

00:54:49.070 --> 00:54:50.690
that mean to you so i thought that was a really

00:54:50.690 --> 00:54:52.510
cool framework as women we need to be even more

00:54:52.510 --> 00:54:54.570
adaptable than men because we have to know how

00:54:54.570 --> 00:54:56.550
to balance those traits right and kind of go

00:54:56.550 --> 00:54:59.110
back and forth between them to to create that

00:54:59.110 --> 00:55:01.980
style that we're comfortable with and So yeah,

00:55:02.059 --> 00:55:04.579
double the effort. Always. Double the effort

00:55:04.579 --> 00:55:07.800
for the same results. The recurring theme. Well,

00:55:07.900 --> 00:55:09.760
we do have one last question for you. And this

00:55:09.760 --> 00:55:11.440
is what we ask everybody that appears on the

00:55:11.440 --> 00:55:14.840
40s formula. And it's simply, what's your 40s

00:55:14.840 --> 00:55:16.980
formula? What's something you would tell women

00:55:16.980 --> 00:55:20.320
in midlife to help them feel better, think better,

00:55:20.360 --> 00:55:23.219
thrive? Yeah. And that's simply that it's time

00:55:23.219 --> 00:55:25.780
to unmute. We have everything we need. It's time

00:55:25.780 --> 00:55:27.960
for us to be confident, to speak up, to show

00:55:27.960 --> 00:55:31.869
ourselves, to show our ideas. We need. women's

00:55:31.869 --> 00:55:35.710
voices. We need our ideas to be heard. And that's

00:55:35.710 --> 00:55:37.489
only going to happen by unmuting, by stopping

00:55:37.489 --> 00:55:42.090
ourselves, stopping not letting ourselves speak

00:55:42.090 --> 00:55:47.050
up and move forward. We're way too nice in like

00:55:47.050 --> 00:55:49.750
what you said, right? I typically do not speak

00:55:49.750 --> 00:55:51.519
up, even though I disagree. Because I don't want

00:55:51.519 --> 00:55:53.539
to have that confrontation. We need to start

00:55:53.539 --> 00:55:54.960
getting more comfortable with that discomfort

00:55:54.960 --> 00:55:57.920
and really speaking our minds because we have

00:55:57.920 --> 00:55:59.860
everything we need. We've been preparing for

00:55:59.860 --> 00:56:02.840
40 years. Yes. Like now let's step into it and

00:56:02.840 --> 00:56:05.519
assume that powerful role and own it and own

00:56:05.519 --> 00:56:08.619
our voices. So that would be 100 % my formula

00:56:08.619 --> 00:56:11.059
is to press unmute. It's time. It is time, girl.

00:56:11.119 --> 00:56:12.679
And that is really the purpose of this show.

00:56:12.800 --> 00:56:14.559
So thank you for sharing that. Such a powerful

00:56:14.559 --> 00:56:44.559
message. Thanks for having me. Thank you. I can't

00:56:44.559 --> 00:56:46.559
understand people who are from up north. It's

00:56:46.559 --> 00:56:49.039
actually like Liverpool. I feel like I need subtitles

00:56:49.039 --> 00:56:51.480
if someone's speaking. That's not just me watching

00:56:51.480 --> 00:56:53.019
the old Beatles videos. No, no, no. I don't know

00:56:53.019 --> 00:56:54.519
what anybody's saying back then. Oh, no, no.

00:56:54.539 --> 00:56:57.559
Even now, if you hear like footballers speaking,

00:56:57.659 --> 00:57:00.360
I'll be like, ooh, I don't know what he's saying.