Who decided what confidence is allowed to sound
like? Because somewhere along the way, many of
us don't lose our voices. We get trained to manage
them, to soften our language, polish our tone,
or fix our accents just enough to stay credible,
likable. We know as young as five years old,
we're already recognizing and assigning competence
and warmth to certain sounding voices. It's not
necessarily a confidence issue. It's more of
how we've been socialized. If you have a boss
or a coworker who constantly shoots you down.
then sure, you're going to start pressing mute.
Telling someone that they're so articulate or
they speak English so well is not a compliment.
Telling someone, I love your accent, also not
a compliment. It's a way of minimizing people.
Everyone's got an accent. It just depends on
where you come from. I have worked with many
women who say, my boss is always telling me I
need to brush up my executive presence. When
we talk about executive presence, it's simply
teaching people how to perform in a way that
meets the expectation of a particular audience,
which if you look at the list, it's like, well,
That's pretty white male. There was a time where
the automatic subtitles on YouTube, women were
transcribed less reliably than men. No way. So
if you believe that you do not have an accent,
that means that you speak the prestige variety.
You have never had anyone point out to you anything
about the way that you speak, that it's wrong
or incorrect. It's just a sign that I won the
language lottery. We've had, for 26 years, the
Speak Good English movement. Telling them every
single year, the way you speak is not good enough.
It's time to unmute. It's time for us to be confident,
to speak up, to show ourselves, to show our ideas.
We need winner's voices. Who decided what confidence
is allowed to sound like? Because somewhere along
the way, many of us don't lose our voices. We
get trained to manage them, to soften our language,
polish our tone, or fix our accents. Just enough
to stay credible, likable, and safe. especially
as women, especially as we get older, and especially
as we're invited into bigger and more powerful
rooms. In today's conversation, we're pulling
apart how muting is learned, why it accelerates,
and the subtle cues that reveal when someone
is shrinking their own voice. We're challenging
the idea that power and femininity sit on opposite
sides of the spectrum and interrogating what
executive presence really means. We're also confronting
accent bias head -on. Who gets to sound authoritative?
Why adaptability matters more than sounding neutral.
And what it costs when people are judged for
how they speak instead of what they know. This
isn't about speaking louder or sounding perfect.
It's about being heard. If you've ever felt your
confidence drop the moment you open your mouth,
stay with us. And if listening to this episode
inspires you to speak up, why not share that
power with a girlfriend, a family member, or
a colleague that might need to hear it? Follow,
like and subscribe to the 40s Formula podcast
on our YouTube channel or anywhere you listen
to the podcast. And now here's our chat with
Heather Hansen. Welcome, Heather. Thank you for
being with us on the show. Thanks so much for
having me. We are really honored and excited.
This is one we've been waiting for for a while.
Your latest book is called Unmuted, and it's
all about how we hold ourselves back from communicating
with confidence. Now, assuming that we do learn
to mute ourselves, that it is a learned behavior,
how does that happen? It is a learned behavior,
and it starts very young, and I think especially
for women. We learn to mute really early on.
We learn how to be the good girl. We learn how
to be quiet in class. We learn that you have
to raise your hand if you want to speak. We follow
all of those rules. And when it comes specifically
to my area of expertise, which is within accents,
we know as young as five years old, we're already
recognizing and assigning competence and warmth
to certain sounding voices. And in American context,
nine -year -olds are able to tell you that people
from the North, are smarter. And people from
the South are kinder. That's interesting. So
we're already making those decisions, assumptions.
We're learning it. We're learning it already.
And we know what our voices mean. And we know
how we come across to other people and how we're
perceived. And we learn to start managing our
behaviors, including our speech. And you said,
you know, women are kind of subject to this good
girl kind of trope. What do you think is similar
for men? Well, they're taught to be loud. They're
taught to, you know, go outside and play and
run around and yell. And we're taught to be quiet
and be in our rooms and play with our dolls.
And sure, that's changing to a degree. I mean,
I grew up very athletic. Yet still, I know that
I have so much of that of I need to follow the
rules. I'm sure you've heard about the studies,
how... A woman will only apply for a job if she
meets 100 % of the qualifications, whereas a
man will go and apply if he only meets 60%, right?
And we like to say that this has to do with confidence.
But there was another recent study done that
really went back to showing how, no, women aren't
applying because they believe in the rules. They
believe, they say, well, they say that these
are the requirements, so they must be the requirements.
So why would I waste my time and their time?
to apply whereas the men know well the requirements
aren't always the requirements and there's always
a workaround and we can let's just go for it
right it's not necessarily a confidence issue
it's more of how we've been socialized and that's
a little bit scary when we grow up and then we
go into the workplace and the way that we interact
with our children as well It's funny, actually,
because I think about it and I always say I'm
non -confrontational. I don't like when there's
conflict, you know, and I find myself in a situation
where if I don't agree, I go quiet and I won't
speak up. I will just sort of hold back and just
keep it within me and not, you know, be open
about it. And in fact, we've spoken about this,
haven't we? And this may be a feminine thing,
but you're going to laugh. Let's hear it. A very
good British friend of mine gave me a very British
problems daily calendar. So every day it's a
tear off. Oh. You know what yesterday's was?
What was it? Being British is telling your friends,
I got so mad I almost said something. And I was
like, that is Jasmine on every level. Oh my God,
that is so true. Heather, in your work, in terms
of cultural context that may affect the way that
we, you know, either speak loudly, speak quietly,
et cetera. Oh, there's definitely so much cultural
context. And especially going from West to East
and our different cultures and what we see as
respect, for example. I mean, I love walking
into these companies and respect is always one
of their big values, you know, painted on the
wall. And it's... Whose definition of respect?
Because respect for me as an American is speaking
up and challenging the boss and sharing my ideas
and being involved. Whereas respect in a different
culture can be something very, very different.
It means staying quiet, deference. Yeah, respecting
what the boss says. And they are showing respect
in their way. But then what happens when these
two cultures collide is we have the Westerner
saying, well, they aren't engaged. They aren't
speaking up. They either don't care or they don't
know. And therefore, they don't deserve that
promotion, or they don't deserve that raise,
or they don't deserve that international posting,
or we can't trust them to advocate for our company
with a client or a customer. So it affects a
lot when we all come together in these international
workplaces. So is muting then something that
you feel is holding women professionals, people
from Eastern cultures, holding them back in global
leadership? I think it's when we don't own our
voice because it's not always about speaking
up. I mean, the framework that I present in Unmuted
is around conscious. confident, and connected
communication and having all of those three in
equal measure. So the conscious side is about
knowing how to read that room, understanding
the cultural differences, knowing when it's appropriate
to speak up and when it's appropriate to hold
back and listen to others. The confidence part
is all around your skills confidence, your self
-confidence. Do you know how to stand up and
give a presentation? Do you know how to interact
and what to say and how to say it? And then finally,
the connected piece, which is the one we always
forget. That is your environment. because you
can speak up all you want. If you have a boss
or a coworker who constantly shoots you down,
then sure, you're going to start pressing mute
and you're going to do it a lot. If you have
a partner in a relationship who doesn't let you
speak or doesn't respect your voice, then you
press mute and you withdraw. And that's what
I see happening in a lot of workplaces. It's
usually the people on mute are the ones who are
not feeling a sense of belonging or inclusion.
There isn't a psychologically safe environment.
So they choose to withdraw. I had another podcast
that people who look different but have similar
accents feel more trusting with the person who's
got a similar accent than if they look different.
But if they sound different but look the same,
that trust isn't quite there. How does that work
then in, you know, a culture like Singapore where
it's so multicultural? Right? Yeah. This is what
I'm trying to figure out in my PhD because we
don't have a lot of research on this in these
really hugely multilingual, multicultural contexts.
We have a lot of research around what the native
speaker thinks of the foreigner and the foreign
accent or non -native accent. We have so much
of that and we have so much research that shows
we will constantly label someone as different
and then rate them lower in competence, lower
in warmth. My huge question is what happens when
we all come together from all parts of the world
where there isn't one announced standard that
must be in place? How do we then negotiate amongst
ourselves the highest level of way of speaking?
Obviously, you know, Singapore has a British
history. So for a very long time, British English
was standard. The standard English, the speak
good English movement is referring to British
English standard. I mean, I've been here. I have
my company here for 19 years this year. There
has been a massive shift in the last decade toward
American English. Do you think that's the, I
guess, the globalization of entertainment? Absolutely.
Our kids growing up on TikTok. Yes, exactly.
That's what we're really asking. And that I find
so fascinating. There's a great book called Algo
Speak, which is all about how, written by a linguist,
and he's really cool. And it's all about how...
you know, the young people are coming forth with
these new words. And a lot of it is actually
coming about because they're trying to get around
the algorithms. So an algorithm will mute them
when they use certain words. So now they say
unaliving. Yes, I have seen that. And the reason
they do it is because they're working around
the algorithms. So they've learned ways to change
their language, change their behavior, the way
they talk, to move around the algorithms so that
they can get their message heard. So you and
I had an email exchange before this interview
where you told me that women and children are
at the forefront of linguistic innovation. Is
this what you mean? This is part of it. Absolutely.
And I mean, if you think about it, we all hate
change and especially people in power. hate change,
because that challenges their power. So whenever
we see a shift in the way we speak, whether it's
uptalk, or vocal fry, or, you know, the slang
used by the younger generation, it's all in the
six, seven, because that is doing. Yeah, that's
all I hear at home right now. So But these are
all ways that we begin changing the language.
And women and teens are typically the ones that
are pushing that linguistic change. And we get
a lot of pushback. Oh, well, uptalk, that's a
woman thing. It's not. I have so many male clients,
and they do it. The vocal fry, the men are doing
it. Look at any, just Gann, Instagram, Reels,
whatever. Any ad that comes up is almost constant
vocal fry. It doesn't matter if it's man or woman.
It's everywhere, right? But we get blamed for
ruining the language, right? Especially the kids.
This idea of ruining the language, I think it's
so interesting. One of the bombs you drop in
your TED Talk is that for the 400 million native
English speakers, there are 2 billion people
coming to the English language, right? So who
then is the guardian of the standard, right?
The standard, like you said. Who gets to make
those decisions? Who makes those decisions? And
with the communication styles with, you know,
social media, obviously being a leading force
in cultural change. Like there, it's not as,
you know, British. It's not black and white.
It's weird though. So obviously I'm British.
My husband's British. My kids are British. But
my sons are picking up some Americanisms when
they're speaking. And whenever he does get that
American twang, I'm kind of like, Kyan? like
it's because he's listening to the podcast obviously
he's picking it up from you but as a British
person I'm kind of like kind can you pronounce
that properly and I'm I'm guilty of it I guess
you know I yeah and I do think that I guess British
people probably do I don't know what's the word,
have these biases more? We all do. We all do.
I mean, I had a mom that said, we don't talk
like that. Right? I think I say that. I think
I say that. In reference to what? Do you mind
sharing? Grammar or pronunciation. And I've been
very careful with my girls. You know, my girls
were born here in Singapore. I sent them to local
preschools. One day, my little three -year -old
comes home so upset. And you have to imagine,
I'm married to a Dane. She is like blonde hair,
white as a ghost, bright blue eyes, curly blonde
hair, walks in and goes, I forgot my water bottle
is cool. And I just, I was shocked. I was just,
it was just total cognitive dissonance. I had
never heard her speak that way. And I just stood
there and then she goes. Oh, oh, sorry, mommy.
I forgot my water bottle at school. Oh, sorry.
I forgot you don't speak that language. And see
on the flip side in my house, right? I have Singaporean
husband, Singaporean in -laws whose English is
their second language. And then my three Singaporean
kids who are obviously in local school and it
doesn't, I don't hear it. Right. Cause I'm literally
in that world. I have a really good girlfriend.
You know, my, my best girlfriend who moved to
the UK is Singaporean. Whenever she sees videos
of my kids. She's like, oh my God, Amanda, they
are the most Singaporean accent I've ever heard.
And I was like, oh, are they? Because I'm surrounded
by it. So it's like, it's that difference, right?
And I wonder when we go back to the US next year
for a visit, we haven't been, my kids were babies.
Let's put it this way. They weren't speaking
really. So we haven't been since they've been
verbal. This will be interesting. That would
be very interesting. Who notices, who doesn't?
Who understands who doesn't? Well, everyone will
notice. Thank you, Heather. It will be interesting
to see who will say something and what they will
say in response. Because everyone will notice.
We immediately notice. And that's very, very
natural. There's a great book called Talking
Back, Talking Black by John McWhorter, who's
at Columbia. And he talks all about how we're
able to hear race in a voice. It's funny you
say that because I feel like I can do that. Like
if I'm hearing someone speak with a British accent,
I can kind of sometimes tell whether they're
of Indian descent or, and it's weird. Yeah. You
can do it. And it's very, very natural. We just
know how to categorize and our minds just very
naturally, very quickly categorize in that way.
And there's nothing wrong with that. There's
nothing racist about that. Nothing. But then
it's what do we do with that information? Yeah.
Right. I mean, I have a colleague here who's
African -American. She had been speaking with
a potential client on the phone several times,
was finally invited to the office to meet. And
she's in the waiting room. He comes out and he
looks right past her. And so she stands up and
says, hi, I'm so -and -so. And he goes, oh, oh,
gosh, you didn't sound black on the phone. No
way. How did she take that? Well, she's heard
it before. So she just said, oh, really? What
does black sound like? There isn't a problem
in the fact that he recognized it. But the question
is. What if she had sounded black on the phone?
Would she have still been invited into the office?
You know, did that play a role in his decision
making process, even though he hadn't consciously
thought about it? And that's where the way that
we speak can start to change the way we behave,
change the way we choose to speak up, change
what we talk about, change the language we use.
Because language isn't neutral. It never is.
Accents aren't neutral. Every single thing we
choose to say is socially attached to some kind
of meaning. And you can't separate it. Fair that
I had gone to a big American university, joined
a traditionally white sorority. In doing that,
I was for the first time confronted with my own
whiteness. And I decided to go into diversity
and inclusion work after college because it really
shook me. You know, I hadn't had that experience
before. And it was really something profound
for me. So my first job out of college was diversity
inclusion organizer for my college. And what
we used to do was kind of dismantle some of these
white privilege ideas targeting that Greek system.
So targeting the traditionally white fraternities
and sororities. And something that often came
up was, Telling someone that's non -white that
they're so articulate or they speak English so
well is not a compliment. And something you've
addressed is telling someone, I love your accent,
also not a compliment. Can you unpack that a
bit for folks who may never have perceived that
those things are not compliments? Yeah, and we
usually, we have the best intentions. When we
say something like that, and I'm guilty too,
you know, I love your accent. I've said it to
you. I've said it directly to your face, by the
way. And there's just something about hearing.
And because we are so, global and international
and we hear so many different voices and people
and we are naturally interested. But I think
when I finally understood why this is not the
greatest thing to say, it's because I've had
experiences living and speaking foreign languages.
So, you know, I worked abroad when I was in college
in Switzerland. I studied abroad in Austria all
of that time. I was speaking German the entire
time. Then, of course, I moved to Denmark. I
married my Danish husband. I'm fluent in Danish.
And I lived there a total of eight years. And
still, you know, every single time I open my
mouth, it's like, oh. Where are you from? I love
your accent. Oh, say that again. I had a business
meeting. Stop. Because they wanted to tell me
how charming my accent was. And I'm like, you
know what? If we were sitting here speaking English,
you wouldn't dare call me charming in the middle
of a business negotiation. It's a way of minimizing
people. It's a way of placing your power above
theirs. And I often find that when people do
not have a good argument, they'll point out the
language. Right. So the minute they don't have
something else to say, it's like that should
have been is not are or, you know, or they'll
cut down the email or the grammar professor.
Yeah, the grammar police or the pronunciation
police, one or the two. But it was it was that
constant interaction of being considered. And
really, I'm lucky coming back to the whiteness
issue, being a white foreigner in Denmark. I
had people tell me I was the kind of foreigner
they wanted there because I was white, Western
educated and learned how to speak Danish. And
so my accent, they like. But I can tell you,
the people from Syria, Afghanistan, anywhere
in Africa, forget it. The darker the skin becomes,
the less charming. Less charming the accent.
Yes. So, and that's quite clear across the board.
It's not only a Danish thing. This is across
the board. For our Danish listeners. All right.
Yes, yes. I'm sorry. This is not only you. I
love you, Denmark. I really love you right now.
I had an experience. I went to India and I was
trying to speak Hindi, trying because I don't
speak it. And I got told that I speak Hindi like
a white person. But then I actually was like,
oh, I better stop because clearly they don't.
I don't know, they're like, they don't understand.
So that didn't feel like a compliment to me.
That kind of felt like, I don't know, that I
wasn't speaking it right. So, you know, like
I guess on the flip side, when you go to somewhere
else, even if your colour is matching and your
accent isn't, which is going back to the... That's
also really hard. I remember a friend in college
who was Japanese -American, decided to go to
Japan to study abroad, but never learned Japanese.
And imagine what that's like to be in Japan and
you don't speak the language. They all looked
at her like, what do you mean you don't speak
the language? How is that possible? You're Japanese.
Why don't you speak it? And it was the hardest
semester of her life. So there's a lot around
race and identity. and language and how you sound
and whether it matches what you're supposed to
sound like and who makes those rules, who decides.
And it's really based on status, right? Global
systems of status, of socioeconomic status, usually.
It's very interesting in the UK. I mean... There's
a lot of research right now in the UK around
all the regional accents. And it is very, very
closely tied to socioeconomic status. So unless
you speak a certain way, you are not appropriate
for a certain role. And it's been proven time
and time and time again in hiring and promotion
decisions that that idea of who is competent
and who is not is very much based on the way
that you speak. Executive presence. I've never
been in a corporate environment, but I have worked
with many women who do, who are. And they say,
you know, yeah, my boss is a... always telling
me I need to brush up my executive presence.
I need to be more confident. I need to be more,
I need to exude authority. What are the subtexts
behind these types of kind of really nebulous?
I struggle with this so much because I run courses
on executive presence and professional presence
for women, for men, for leadership. And I constantly
struggle with it because I truly, honestly believe.
Very bluntly said, what we are doing when we
talk about executive presence is simply teaching
people how to perform in a way that meets the
expectation of a particular audience. That's
all it is. How do I need to behave? How do I
need to look, sound, speak, act in order to meet
the expectation of that person that's in front
of me? And we have all these markers that we
know visually, vocally, verbally, we can look
at them, status markers, you know, if you're
louder, if you speak faster, if you use more.
articulate pronunciation, careful pronunciation
instead of I'm gonna do this, gonna do that.
I'm going to, I'm going to make a presentation.
So careful pronunciation, all of these things
are on the powerful side, whereas more relaxed
pronunciation, lower speaking voice, higher pitch,
all of those things are on the more attractive.
side, friendly, warm side. So in order to fit
all these powerful markers, how do we define
it? What does it look and sound like? Well, that's
what we think is powerful, is correct, is going
to get us up the ladder. Well, where do we come
in as women? When do we, when are we allowed
to be softer? Because God knows we need, we really
need more women's voices. We need to start pressing
unmute, especially those of us in our forties.
It's like, come on, we have 20 years of our career
behind us. We know our stuff. We know what needs
to be done. And now we need to start speaking
up and vocalizing that. And it could sound and
feel very difficult at first because we're forced
into that powerful mode that maybe doesn't come
naturally to a lot of us. You know, I was a speech
and debate kid in high school, right? So I was
trained. to be that way from a very young age.
And that has assisted my life journey in many,
many ways. But it doesn't mean it's the only
way. And it doesn't mean it's the right way.
And yet we have huge trading industries that
are built on this, right? That I'm profiting
from, right? And that's the hypocrisy. And I
talk about the hypocrisy of my career constantly
because... What do I do? I have these people
who are trying to succeed in a system that's
completely messed up. And yet, I'm not going
to be able to fix this system the rest of my
life. I can go on podcasts. I can do keynotes.
I can talk. I can write. I can write books. But
I won't even make a dent by the time I die. So
what do we do in the meantime? Let them struggle
or do we teach them the tools? But I think the
thing to keep in mind is that we always have
agency. If I am going to change my behavior,
my style of speaking, my tone, any of those things,
that is my choice. And I am actively choosing
to do that. And I know exactly why I'm doing
it in that situation. It's not that I'm being
forced. It's not that. I have to. I can choose
to do something differently. But what result
do I want? And am I going to get the result I
want by doing it this way? So for me, I find
some kind of justification there in this idea
of maintaining my agency and being aware of what
I'm doing. Because most of us are just unconsciously
doing this. We're trying to fit into systems
and behave in a way that isn't us. And suddenly
when you... are consciously choosing to behave
a certain way. Now it's not masking. It's not
camouflage. It's no, I'm making an active decision.
It's just like when we're living in another culture
and we know this is not appropriate in this culture.
So I'm going to actively choose to behave in
this way. I know it's not my norm, but I know
this is appropriate in this context. It's funny
that you bring this up because that's just reminded
me of a conversation I had with a colleague years
and years ago when I first worked in Singapore.
And he said to me, I wish I had a neutral accent
like yours. And I was like, but I've got an accent.
I've just got a British accent. I was like, everyone's
got an accent. It's just depends on where you
come from. And he was like, no, he goes, yeah,
I understand. My one sounds. different and I
was like okay but you know like he was feeling
that from you know from the way he spoke because
I'm sure he's been affected by it yeah you know
he he's been told or treated in such a way because
of that accent that he wants to change it yeah
which is unfortunate well when I've run courses
on accent bias one of the very first questions
I ask is do you have an accent and especially
when I run these for American audiences I'll
usually have Between 20 and 30 % who say no.
Oh, interesting. I think I would have been one
of those back in the day. I mean, like, no, I'm
the most neutral. I'm the newscaster. Welcome
to the evening news. Exactly. Exactly. We sound
like the newscasters. We sound like the Hollywood
films, the Hollywood stars. No, not a British
newscaster. There's more Anchorman, 1970s. But
really, if... If you believe that you do not
have an accent, that means that you speak the
prestige variety. You have never had anyone point
out to you anything about the way that you speak,
that it's wrong or incorrect. It's always been
perfect. It's just a sign that, okay, I was raised
in a certain location in a certain part of the
world that is recognized as being the prestige
standard, the smartest, the most professional,
the most friendly, the most everything, right?
And that is such a gift. And it really does change
the whole trajectory. If you were born into that
language lottery, I call it, you know, I won
the language lottery. Do the British. also feel
they don't have an accent? Or do they say, I've
got a British accent? Well, they would within
their own context, right? I mean, if you leave,
then that's when we start to recognize, of course,
we all have like, yeah, I have an American accent,
right? Actually, that's right. So if I was in
the UK and someone said, oh, your accent, I'm
like, I don't have an accent in the UK. Whereas
I would think somebody from up North or the Midlands
do have an accent. Okay. But obviously in a context
where it's more multicultural, I would say mine
is British or American. Yeah. Okay. Because here,
when we go to work, you know, we can have a dinner
party and have 15 accents for 15 people. Exactly.
And that's the great thing about Singapore. Oh,
fantastic. That's what I love about it. I don't
know that all of our listeners know. So we do
have a majority Singapore listenership, but we
also have a great global listenership. And I
don't think people realize that Singapore has
four. official languages. If you've been here,
you know it because you hear the train announcement
every time. But we have English, Mandarin, Tamil,
and Malay. We have four official languages. I
mean, this is the definition of a multilingual,
multicultural society. What's unique here as
someone who is a linguistics researcher, soon
to be doctor, and is doing research in this area?
What's unique about Singapore versus the UK,
the American context? We can't look at Singapore
without taking into consideration the colonial
history. English was a colonial gift. And it's
Lee Kuan Yew who really attached to that and
created significant language policies in Singapore
to ensure that English would be the neutral language
that would unite the cultures. And this is something
that has been done throughout history in a number
of the former colonies. We saw this happen in
parts of India. We've seen it happen in different
former African colonies. English is used as,
well, now we have this language and we are not
culturally attached to it. So therefore, we can
use it as a neutral lingua franca, a common language
to unite us, to build our own national heritage,
right? But there was a lot that came with that.
And truly, English has allowed Singapore to compete
in a way that, for example, Malaysia said, no,
we don't want English. And they gave it up. And
look at the difference in the global standing
and the way they've been able to compete in the
world. This was very truly, Lee Kuan Yew was
very specific. There's a whole book about Lee
Kuan Yew's language policy and thoughts on it.
And he also, because he was educated in the UK
as well, he brought that back. And he was very
clear that there was a very specific way that
it must be spoken. Singlish or anything that
was more of a pigeon or, you know, these horrible
words that we have for colloquial varieties.
But even today, there's so much discussion about
Singlish. Is it appropriate? And even Singaporeans
themselves have this internalized inferiority
complex around their language that the way they
speak. And that's no surprise. We've had. for
20, now going on 26 years, the Speak Good English
movement, telling them every single year, the
way you speak is not good enough. So if, you
know, the only good way is the British way, then
how does Singapore English ever get accepted?
And how do people feel that the way that they
speak is professional and correct? So it's one
of the only places in the world where They will
look at Singapore English and still not feel
a sense of solidarity necessarily with other
people speaking, especially with Singlish. And
they will give competence still to only a Western
variety, usually British or American, or only
perhaps standard Singapore English, which is
very much British leaning. So the Singapore...
relationship with the English language is actually
very, very complex and quite interesting. But
we do see now that it's getting harder and harder
to hear the ethnic groupings within Singapore
English. It used to be that you would be able
to identify it a little more easily. And that
seems to also be subtly shifting where... Which
would show that maybe they're taking more ownership,
but they do feel a sense of ownership over the
language. And yet they still have a sense of
inferiority that it's not good enough on a global
stage, which allows, you know, people like me
to come in and have a business on presentation
skills and professional presence and articulation
training and everything and build a massive business
that a local could never have had. Right. Because
for some reason, I look sound the way that they
think. is more appropriate. But in reality, there's
no difference. So how do we finally, you know,
build that confidence in that Singapore English
is, it's a real English. Linguistically speaking,
it is just, it has its own standards, its own
grammar, its own vocabulary, everything. Intonation
patterns, it can be fully described like any
other variety of English. And yet still, they're
fighting to get the same acknowledgement globally
and within business. And that's a constant struggle.
I always joke that American English kind of like
sharpened and shortened British English, right?
It's like we don't need two L's in coloring or,
you know, following whatever. We don't need the
U in every other word. But then I think. If that's
my argument for why American English is amazing,
Singlish is the super version of that, right?
Because it's super condensed and super efficient.
I always say the most efficient people in the
world, they even make their language the most
efficient. No one's wasted. Everything they don't
need, the endings. It's not neat because my husband
does say to me, so sometimes, you know, if I'm
like trying to, I don't know, phone a restaurant
or speak to the cab driver, he's like, don't
put in unnecessary words. Just keep it straightforward.
So this is my husband, right? So my husband is
Singaporean. So I have to say that I do tend
toward the grammar police in my writing and,
you know. He and I co -manage patients, for example.
And so we co -author the summary consultations
that we give to the patients. And I will not
let him click send until I've read it. There's
no way it's happening. Because for little grammar
things, you know, whatever, because I have an
eagle eye for that, but also just for spellings.
And he always says, can we talk about how no
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the show by using code TFF. Amanda, because I'll
spend hours making it perfect, right? And he'll
be like, Amanda, is it more important that it's
perfect and correct? or more important that the
patient understands? And I've been told this
in various ways, by the way, in terms of communication.
Is it more important to be right or to be understood
to your point previously to leave that conversation
with a sense of connection? Yeah. What's your
opinion on that? Yes. Yeah. That's one of the
main things I say is that it's about connection,
not perfection. That's the whole goal of communication.
The whole point is to be understood and to understand.
It's not about using all your flowery words and
sounding super eloquent. And that can be hard
for a lot of us who grow up in communication,
who pride ourselves and a huge part of our identity.
is the way that we speak. I mean, like I said
- You took my sports analogies away when I was
watching your TED Talk. I was like, no, sports
analogies are the cornerstone of American communication.
How dare you? I know, right? Think of all the
words we had to learn for the SATs. We pride
ourselves on our large vocabularies and that's
a signal of education and of status. And then
you move abroad. And I moved to Denmark and I
literally mourned my vocabulary. I was like -
Really sad to let go of all these flowery, amazing
words I had learned that said so much about my
background and education and status because no
one understood them. And what is the point if
no one understands me, you know, until I finally
learned enough Danish that I could communicate.
But in the beginning, I learned really quickly,
OK, this isn't going to work, even though, you
know, the level of English in Denmark is amazing.
But still, it's not academic. words I was trying
to use. And so I learned very, very quickly,
no, it's much more important that they can understand
me. So I'm going to simplify the language. I'm
going to speak slower. There are a lot of certain
things we need to do. Drop the idioms, the phrases,
the sports analogies, because they're cultural.
They carry culture. And we can have a certain
expectation that people understand our words,
but we can't expect them to understand cultural
references. And we forget that, especially if
we've never learned foreign languages. So I see
a big difference between the monolingual English
speakers and multilinguals, because when you've
learned foreign languages, you understand what
it's like to go through that process of needing
to translate something very quickly or finding
the right word or being a little uncomfortable
about your pronunciation. And you just have a
different understanding, whereas a lot of times
monolinguals who have never gone through that
don't really realize. what's going on inside
their head as they're trying to get that sentence
out. As the resident monolingual in this room.
Hello. Hi, friends. I hear what you're saying.
And I think that part of your message, and that's
a misunderstanding, is that it's not so much
about, you know, people who don't have English
as a first language standardizing their accents.
It's about monolinguists. people with English
as a first language, recognizing others' accents
and being able to adapt. What are some tips that
you can offer to, you know, monolinguistic, monolingual
English speakers like myself or just English
speaker, native English speakers when negotiating
business, social life? Life overseas the first
time. So putting yourself back, what, 23 years
ago, you know, the first time that you were in.
And I came to Singapore. I think it was most
shocking for me when I came to Singapore. And
this is what always happens. You hear, well,
they speak English there. Yeah. So you don't
stop to think that they don't speak your English.
So I get off the plane and I realized really
quickly when I'm walking into the first classroom
where I'm supposed to be teaching certain pilots.
at a certain airline in Singapore, how to do
better public announcements. And I'm sitting
in the first few lessons because I arrived a
little too late and a different trainer had started
the course. And I was listening going, oh my
gosh, how am I going to teach this course? I
can't understand anything they're saying. And
I thought, how is this possible? I'm educated
in linguistics. I understand how languages work.
I know. Why can't I understand what they're saying?
And I had to immediately dive into getting contact,
contact, contact. So listening to as much authentic
Singapore English as possible. Go to the hawker
centers, talk to people, make friends, local
friends, listen to the language so that you can
start picking out the patterns. People think
that accents are so difficult. A lot of that
is psychological. We have a lot of research on
this. We don't know exactly the process, but
there is a portion of that that comes down to
an accent's hard to understand. I don't want
to put in the effort. I'm going to shut down.
You have to override that system and say, I can
learn how to understand an accent. It's actually
a very simple process. Every time I want to hear
a TH sound, it's going to be a T or a D. And
guess what? If it's at the end of a word, it's
an F. So it's very specific. And every single
time it will be that way. When you want to hear
a certain vowel, I mean, I don't know if you
say bath or bath. I say bath. And so now I know
that if you say bath, you probably say path and
you probably say all of those sounds. And I will
be able to tune my ear to that really, really
quickly. made that association. The problem is
we typically are not taught to do this. It's
a skill set we never learn. We're thrown out
in the world and it's like, go and talk. Especially
monolinguals. This is hitting home because as
someone who's never learned a second language,
it feels like this insurmountable challenge or
it feels like this new thing that I have to use
resources to do. And there's an extra level of
frustration that comes with it when you're trying
to complete a task. So you're in a work setting,
you're trying to get a job done, and then you're
having difficulty understanding someone and the
frustration immediately rises. So the first time
I was ever calling a call center, when my computer,
my first computer ever in college is crashing
on me and I have to call Microsoft and I'm redirected
to somebody in India and I can't understand,
and I'm already angry and then they can't help
me and I can't understand them. And so all these
emotions sit in me. And then what happens the
day I meet? an Indian English speaker years later
who is working in my company. And suddenly that
frustration rises and it's like, oh, it's another,
you know, it's so, so easy for this to happen.
And it sits in us our whole life. And until you
can recognize what those biases are that you
carry, and it doesn't help that all of our media
raises us. and gives us these messages of what
these accents mean. The Simpsons, there's the
Indian shopkeeper that isn't even an actual Indian
voice. White guy. Oh, is it really? Yeah, totally
fake. I mean, yeah. I would actually think. Apu
Natsupima Petalong is in fact a white voice actor.
Yes. And even look at what we feed our children.
The Lion King. That's one of my favorites. We've
got, you know, these two lions in Africa. And
one is the hero lion, and he speaks perfect Hollywood
English. And then we've got his brother. Oh,
yeah. His brother, who is the bad guy, the villain.
And he's British. Oh, the British are always
the bad guys. I was going to bring that up. Yeah,
Scar. He's British. How did these two brothers
end up with totally different accents? Well,
I mean, one went to Cambridge, and that's obviously
how they became English. Isn't it funny though?
I mean, that's our cultural touch points. They're
all British villains. It's not just Disney though.
I feel like anytime there's a bad guy, he's a
British guy. Yeah. Although recently they've
started to become sexy doctors. Oh, they have.
I mean, it can go either way. Again, you know,
accents can be used for good. We do love a good,
sexy British accent. We do love a British accent.
We do love a British accent in America. Even
the ones that you would think are. oh i don't
like that that's awful that's so uneducated all
of those social assignments that you give to
those uh probably northern accents in america
they can they're amazing yeah yeah my mom listens
to this show because she likes to support me
but because she likes to hear jasmine's voice
thank you thanks mom yeah so it's it's really
incredible the way we're socialized and um and
then the way that we identify immediately someone
being different from ourselves. So how we identify
ourselves, what categories we place for ourselves
socially, and then what in and out groups we
create. And so one of the things I really want
to dig into in the PhD is to look at, okay, so
for those of us who live internationally and
are in these mixed environments, are our own
self -categorizations maybe a little more broad?
Do we maybe not judge people as negatively because
we consider ourselves maybe more in the same
category? So, for example, in the expat world,
will we instead of categorizing you as British
and me as American? Well, we're both expats.
So therefore, maybe my. assessment of your accent
will be different because I've put us in the
same in -group instead of placing you as someone
who's different. So how are we defining our social
identities? And then how does that impact how
we are assessing people based on how they sound?
And we just don't know a lot about that yet.
And I guess the way we sound is, like you said,
our identity. Some people turn around and ask
me, are you Australian? I'll be like, no, I'm
British. And I feel like Not that it's an attack
on my identity, but it is my identity. It is
who I am. Yeah. And it's funny. We're incredibly
bad at identifying accents. Incredibly bad at
it. When you say we, you mean people or you mean
Americans? Everyone. Okay, everyone. Thank you.
Everyone is very, very bad at identifying accents.
I have had people call me and say, I really,
really want to work with you because I really
want a British accent just like yours. Wow. Wow.
Sorry to disappoint you. And I also get constantly
asked if I'm Australian. me it's like really
do you think how do you not hear it. But, but
even for me, I can get confused British and Australian
or Australian, New Zealand. It's so clear to
them. I think I figured out the American Canadian.
Give us your, give us your. Okay. So I feel like
the Canadians are a little bit slower and they
do prolong certain words a little bit more because
I've got a Canadian cousin. So I'm trying to
think how he does it, but I know I can't do it
myself, but I can hear it. So I can hear it,
but I can't tell New Zealand or Australian. Okay.
Whenever I do my New Zealand accent. I always
get told that it sounds Australian. And I was
like, no, but it's like, cause like all I can
hear, it's open your nose. And then all the Australians
are like, all the New Zealanders are like, that's
what the Australians sound like. And I was like,
are you sure though? Cause that's like how I
sound. Anyway, you know, teach them. Again, I'll
take their authority on it. And I mean, I'm horrible
at imitating accents. I can't do it at all. I'm
really, really bad at it. I have a lot of difficulty
identifying them. And so what happens when we
misidentify an accent, right? So a lot of people
will, and I don't know if they're just trying
to be nice, but they will normally ask me if
I'm Canadian. And there are some commonalities
between California English and a specific area
of Canada where there's a bit of a closeness.
And one of the things is that the T's are a little
crisper. in the Canadian, which is something
I've consciously changed in my speech. I doubt
I'm doing it today because you're going to bring
out my American. I'm here to help. Yeah. And
there's some cool linguistic stuff on that as
well, why that happens. I'm Canadian because
I've added these really crisp T's. But one reason
I've done that is because there have been some
linguistic studies showing that that is an important
sound for intelligibility. If we say water instead
of water and international instead of international.
Those very simple little sounds, because for
those who have learned a language know, there's
that period where you're really listening to
all those sounds and you're trying to write it
out in your head and figure out the word and
get it and translate it. And if half the letters
are missing, it's really difficult to recognize.
And it's the same thing for the R sound. So for
your non -rhotic is what we say when you don't
use that R, it can be difficult. You know, the
first time I was in a taxi here and he said he
was going to drop me at the car park. And I'm
going, what the heck is a kapak? And we don't
even use car park in American, right? But kapak,
kapak. I'm like, is he speaking Chinese? What
word is this? I was so, and if he had said a
parking garage or, you know, in the parking lot,
anything, but I didn't know the word. And then
I couldn't identify the letters because I was
hearing K -A -H -P -O -K. And I was trying to
spell it, couldn't catch it. My parents are always
my wonderful touch point on. what singlish is
like meaning like how like i'm like oh yeah i
hear so that's that's a common one is is pork
is like puck puck you want chicken or puck yeah
and my parents like they still they still struggle
with it they're like what's the other thing and
i was like it's pork guys it's pork we're in
a chinese restaurant it's always pork okay so
that's definitely the other thing whenever the
other the other option is there if it's meat
It's pork, right? If it's not chicken, it's pork.
Yeah, it's never beef. It's never beef, dude.
It's pork. Let's just let it hang. And also the
D sound I feel. So Goodwood Park Hotel is where
I used to stay a lot when I would come to visit
Singapore in the early 2000s. And I had to get
used to saying Google Park, Google Park. Because
if you go in the cab and go, I'd like to go to
the Goodwood Park Hotel. They're like, I have
no idea. The cab's like, I've never heard of
it. And if you're like, I want to go to the Google
Park, they're like. I'm bringing you Scott's
road, you know? So there's, there's things that,
yeah, you have to just, you, you hear it once,
then you, then it's like, you never forget it.
And then you understand that, okay, maybe if
that D sound isn't in set in Goodwood, maybe
that sound is also, you know, underemphasized
in different words. And then it becomes easier.
yeah get through so it's about really listening
for those patterns because it's all just pattern
recognition and the same sounds will be switched
out and once you know what those are it becomes
so much easier to understand and then you aren't
using so many resources and then you don't feel
so exhausted at the end of a conversation and
then you know it's like if you back to your point
about taking the time to identify patterns and
learn That also helps you. It saves you a lot
of unnecessary stress. It does. It does. Well,
we're going to save you some stress. We have
a fun little segment here that ends the show
called Hot or Hype. And so we're going to give
you kind of some hot topics in what we perceive
to be in linguistics. And then you give us a,
you know, one word, couple sentences answer to
those things, whether you think they're hot or
hype. Changing how you speak based on who's listening.
Hot. That one's hot. Yeah. We want to be doing
that. We want to be adaptable. We should be adaptable.
That's key. Absolutely. Corporate jargon. Put
a pin in it. Thank goodness. Stop it. I'm over
it, girl. I need that to be hype. Because again,
as someone who's not in the corporate world,
it is those things I hate adapting to those.
Voice notes. I know everybody thinks they're
hype. I hate voice notes. You hate voice notes
too? I actually pre -screened. I was like, if
she didn't say hype on this, I'm not asking.
I hate it. Tell us why you do, because I want
a linguist to back me up here. Well, I don't
know if this is at all anything based in linguistics.
I want Heather to back me up here. But my personal
opinion is that people do not know how to be
succinct in a voice note. And they ramble. When
you are typing it and you're forced to type it
with your finger, it's a lot shorter. Oh, and
it's just what you want to say, right? Yes. And
I'm around people all the time. I have my kids,
my husband, my this, I don't. have time to stop
and listen to someone or if it's, you know, out
loud and other people hear it, I don't know what's
going to be on it. So even when people send me
voice notes, I never listened to them. I now
look at the translate, not the trans, the transcription.
Is that a transcription? What's happening? How
does transcription? Did you know this? I did.
Yes. Cause everyone knows I hate voice notes.
So I had a bunch of people hit me on my social
media, be like, you know, you can transcribe
it now. And I was like, yeah. And then that's
where you can see the rambling by the way. Because
your next voice note, my dear, transcribe it
and see how unbearably long it looks in text.
I mean, it's funny because I remember once I
think I was trying to call you and you were busy
and you're like, just send it to me in a voice
note. I was like, wow, are you going to listen
to that? I must be really busy. That's how you
know I was at the end of my rope. But you can
also tell really clearly the bias that's built
into AI when you do the transcription of voice
notes. Oh, wow. Because the AI can only understand
certain accents. Oh, yeah. So, I mean, Australian
friends, I get half of it. Singapore friends,
not even half of it. But if you get an American
or a Brit, those are perfectly transcribed. And
surprisingly, even women are hit by that. This
is changing quite quickly. But there was a time
where the automatic subtitles on YouTube, women
were transcribed. Less reliably than men. No
way. That's interesting. So it all has to do
with what is being trained. The language that
goes in is the language that comes out. And if
your language doesn't go in, well, guess what?
It's not going to come out. And that's a huge,
huge, huge, huge issue in AI right now and the
AI developments that most of those developers
are not paying attention to because they haven't
thought about it. And well, and that leads into
my final hotter hype for you, which is women
masculinizing their communication style. in order
to appear more powerful or competent. I want
to say hype. At the same time, though, there's
that hypocrisy we've talked about where what
are you trying to achieve? Are you in a room
full of men? Then make the choice to adapt your
behaviors just as we would adapt when speaking
to someone. Adapt the behavior for that moment
to get what you need and want, and then go back
to your default. So I know that that is effective,
and I know we're not at a place yet. If ever
where that's going to fully change. As long as
we're sitting in rooms full of men making decisions,
we are going to have to continue to adapt to
have our voices heard. If we can start shifting
that, which I know we are and we are doing and
we will continue to do, then we can start showing
up. a little bit more authentically. I'm going
to ask a really silly question. What is masculinizing?
If you're speaking to a guy or a group of men.
Lowering your voice. Oh, is it? It's like choosing
to speak lower. As opposed to speak, if your
natural voice was here, but you choose to put
it here. Oh, okay. Because in my head, I'm like,
what, you just go around and call them all, I
don't know, bitches. I was just like, how does
that work? No, the voice thing is a bit, I mean,
Margaret Thatcher was accused of this. And it
was her sort of, you know, people that were close
to her that were men that were telling her, you
really need to, you know, lower your voice to
sound more authoritative. Smile less. Smile less.
Right. So look more stern. The way we sit, the
way we take up more space, be louder. Talk faster.
All of these things that are related to those
powerful markers tend to be on the more masculine
side. Kate Mason. Are you familiar with Dr. Kate
Mason being with your debate history? Australia's
national debate. champion from back in the day.
She's in our age group. Anyway, she just recently
published a book called Powerfully Likeable.
There's a whole chapter on masculine -feminine
communication and there's a list. So she literally
does a left and right situation. And kind of
a fun fact, her solution is to take one of the
masculine ones and one of the feminine ones and
put them together and see if you can create a
communication style that feels authentic that
melds those two worlds. So one might be powerfully
compassionate for example and then how what does
that mean to you so i thought that was a really
cool framework as women we need to be even more
adaptable than men because we have to know how
to balance those traits right and kind of go
back and forth between them to to create that
style that we're comfortable with and So yeah,
double the effort. Always. Double the effort
for the same results. The recurring theme. Well,
we do have one last question for you. And this
is what we ask everybody that appears on the
40s formula. And it's simply, what's your 40s
formula? What's something you would tell women
in midlife to help them feel better, think better,
thrive? Yeah. And that's simply that it's time
to unmute. We have everything we need. It's time
for us to be confident, to speak up, to show
ourselves, to show our ideas. We need. women's
voices. We need our ideas to be heard. And that's
only going to happen by unmuting, by stopping
ourselves, stopping not letting ourselves speak
up and move forward. We're way too nice in like
what you said, right? I typically do not speak
up, even though I disagree. Because I don't want
to have that confrontation. We need to start
getting more comfortable with that discomfort
and really speaking our minds because we have
everything we need. We've been preparing for
40 years. Yes. Like now let's step into it and
assume that powerful role and own it and own
our voices. So that would be 100 % my formula
is to press unmute. It's time. It is time, girl.
And that is really the purpose of this show.
So thank you for sharing that. Such a powerful
message. Thanks for having me. Thank you. I can't
understand people who are from up north. It's
actually like Liverpool. I feel like I need subtitles
if someone's speaking. That's not just me watching
the old Beatles videos. No, no, no. I don't know
what anybody's saying back then. Oh, no, no.
Even now, if you hear like footballers speaking,
I'll be like, ooh, I don't know what he's saying.