You are operating based on the world's definition
of success, not your own. So how do you change
your identity? It's very easy to say, right,
from I'm going to change my identity. If you
don't really believe it, the me self. is when
you are looking at yourself through the lens
of how others would view you. So how is the world
looking at me? What are they thinking of me?
It just gets so hard to operate in a world where
all you're thinking about is what others might
be perceiving. It's not just being fearless,
it's walking with your fear. What if your entire
life, the pivots, the setbacks, the lucky breaks,
wasn't fate or personality? but the result of
tiny, conscious choices you didn't even know
you were making. Today, we're unpacking a way
of thinking that flips the story we tell ourselves,
that feeling stuck is permanent, that I am is
destiny, and that obstacles are signs to turn
back instead of invitations to walk through a
new door. We're diving into the identity statements
that quietly shape our lives, the metaphor of
the mighty tree trapped in a tiny pot, and why
midlife is actually the perfect moment to rewrite
the script if we're willing to choose differently.
If you've been craving a shift, a spark, or a
sign that you can pivot into something truer
and more expansive, this conversation is going
to feel like someone just handed you the keys
to your own life. And if this is your first time
listening or watching The 40s Formula, please
hit the subscribe button and review the episode
so we can keep holding space for women who want
to feel strong, clear, and supported through
midlife. And if you want more from The 40s Formula,
check out our free ebook, link in the show notes.
Welcome, Bhavna. We are so happy to have you
with us. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for
having me. And I love when you say we are only
one conscious choice away from a new direction.
I really love that. What was one conscious choice
that you made that changed everything? The one
conscious choice that I made and continue to
make is to lean into fear. You know, fear is
one of those things that we are wired, we're
almost conditioned to turn away from. But what
I've found time and again is when we lean into
our fear. Amazing things can happen because fear
actually is the strongest guidepost or signal
for our growth. I remember when, now this was
over 15 years ago, when I first left my corporate
career behind, which felt so safe and comfortable
and secure at the time, I was so afraid of doing
anything else. And at the time, I'd made the
decision of just pausing for a while to reflect
more deeply. into the kinds of choices I was
making so I decided I was going to move to India
I was living in New York at the time and I remember
I was having a conversation with a friend of
mine at the time and I told him I literally feel
like I'm jumping off a cliff he said something
to me so profound that has still stuck with me
to this day he said yes Pavna you are jumping
off a cliff but go ahead and jump knowing that
the universe is going to be there with open arms
to catch you when you fall because the universe
always rewards courage. Wow. And that has just
stuck with me and has become a mantra almost
for my life. And I have found time and again,
when I befriend my fears is what allows me to
unlock that next level of growth and evolution
for myself. So it's not just being fearless,
it's walking with your fear. I think that's an
interesting distinction, right? Because I think...
The reason that a lot of us do feel held back
from fear and don't feel like we can embrace
courage is because it's like, well, I'm not a
fearless person. You know, I feel that intimidation
and that and that that scaredness about the next
step. So I think that's really cool to think,
no, I walk with my fear. There it is. That's
something that we say to our children as well.
We say being brave isn't not being scared. That's
right. It's feeling it. And then. Just getting
on with it. And, you know, it's like the book,
feel the fear and do it anyway, which I think
is such a profound thing, not just for kids,
but also for adults, because you do think you
think, oh, my God, this is scary. I'm not going
to do it. But actually, if you want to be brave
and you want to make a choice, then you have
to. You are going to feel scared. Like, I don't
think anything easy will come to you. If you're
not afraid. No, definitely not. And nothing good.
Yes. I'm going to say good. I'm going to say
good. Correct. That's right. That's right. Yeah,
absolutely. I think it's about befriending our
fears rather than overcoming anything. Whenever
we talk about overcoming our fears or overcoming
the imposter syndrome, we always... almost make
it sound like there's something wrong with us
or there's something, you know, there's something
we need to overcome or fix. And it's not about
that. Like you said, it's about turning towards
it and walking alongside it, even though it feels
scary and unnatural. But that's what really makes
you feel alive and come alive when you embrace
those fears and and just keep taking those next
steps forward. And we've heard from a lot of
women who are unfortunately in that place of
fear still. And they're saying things like, I'm
stuck or this is, you know, I'll always be like
this. You know, in our line of work with nutrition,
I'll always be overweight. Right. I'll always
be out of shape. You know, this always happens
to me. How does conscious choosing or conscious
choice help women take more control of their
lives and kind of drop these ways of thinking?
Yeah, that's such a great question. You know,
it's so true, especially I think when we hit
our 40s and beyond, we start to feel like this
is it. Who I am today is who I'm always going
to be. And what's fascinating is, especially
there was this research that Daniel Gilbert,
who is a psychologist out of Harvard, had done
where he asked a group of people all ages, how
different do you think you would be 10 years
from now? And then 10 years later, he actually
asked those people, well, how different do you
think you are compared to who you thought you
would be? And it turned out every single person.
We grossly underestimated how much change was
possible for them. So yes, we're conditioned
to feel like, okay, this is it. This is it. This
is the end of the story for me. But just knowing
that we tend to underestimate the possibility
of change, I think is a good place to begin.
And knowing that, then you can make certain conscious
choices. to bring about that change. And I think
for me, it's always been about getting clear
around what that future vision or that future
self really look like for you. Because to put
yourself in the driver's seat, Where that clarity
comes is knowing where you're going, knowing
where you're headed. And even if you don't know
what you're going to do, what I always like to
say is don't focus on the doing so much. Focus
on who you would like to be, because that's a
question any of us can answer. even right now
with whatever confusion or whatever uncertainties
we have in our life to just ask yourself, how
would I like to show up as a woman, as a human,
as a leader that makes me feel good, that makes
me feel proud? And to then make the kinds of
choices that allow you to become more and more
of that with every action, every choice, every
step that you take. That's amazing because I
feel like, again, even to bring it back to our...
clients you know they always talk about I want
to lose x amount of weight I want to look a certain
way but it's never I'm going to go to the gym
five times a week or three times a week or whatever
commitment they can make and so then it becomes
it's not about what you what you sort of want
as an end goal it's more about how you're going
to get there Yes, yes. And in fact, if you look
at the science of behavior change, it all points
to how the most sustainable change comes when
you bring about that shift at the level of your
identity. So not just at the level of action
saying, okay, I'm going to go to the gym three
times a week, but to say, I am the kind of person.
who practices discipline, is always going to
follow through on her word. When you start making
more of those I am statements that are rooted
in your identity or the kind of identity you
would even like to shape, that's what creates
the strongest foundation for change. So how do
you change your identity? Because I think it's
very easy to say, right, I'm going to change
my identity. I'm going to become this person.
But if you don't really believe it, like how
can you make those changes? That's true. It's
not easy by any means. I think it does begin
with first bringing clarity to, okay, who would
you like to be? For example, for me, I know when
I made the switch that I made, I knew I wanted
to be the kind of person who is driven more by...
my inner alignment rather than external validation
or who someone who always was could choose courage
over over comfort I think it's about once you've
given yourself that vision with each choice asking
yourself is this however small this choice is
is it leading me towards that north star that
I've defined for myself or is it keeping me stuck
or is it even moving me in a different direction.
And every time you take that step forward and
you see yourself, even in a small way, becoming
more of who you wish to become, in that moment,
I think what's really powerful is to actually
pause and acknowledge that. So self -affirmation
theory really tells us that the more we actually
consciously affirm who we are becoming, whether
by journaling or even something as simple or
as silly as every time you see yourself showing
up in a certain way to mentally just say to yourself
it's just like me to do that it's just like me
to say that it's just like me to uh to say no
is whatever it is to actually either journal
or in your head you say that you're rewiring
that narrative in your head about who you are
and what you're capable of and who you can become.
And that, I have a client who embodies that so
well. This is a client who is getting fit using
my strength training programs and her whole life,
when she travels, when she goes on holiday, she
just lets it loose, meaning she doesn't do her
exercises, she doesn't eat very well, she has
too much alcohol, all those things, right? She
recently went on a holiday. and two things happened
differently number one she found a gym so that
she could get her workout in she looked for one
at her holiday destination and she found it so
she went to it and second thing is she posted
that information on her social media tagged me
as her coach so i could see it meaning she chose
the behaviors of a fit person yes and then she
affirmed that she is in fact the fit person by
showing the world that she made that choice and
i think Women don't do that for two reasons.
One is that they don't believe it yet. They don't
believe that just because I went to the gym,
I'm not a fit person. But that is what a fit
person would do. So you did the thing. And secondly,
they don't want to put themselves out there.
They're like, I'm an imposter. Like you said,
they'll know that I'm just like an unfit person
going to the gym. I'm not actually a fit person.
How does adopting a new identity help us overcome
that feeling that we aren't there yet? Can we
talk about how no one prepares you for how your
skin changes in your 40s? Honestly, one day it's
fine. The next it's dull, dry and showing every
single emotion you've ever felt. That's why I've
actually been loving Love Indus. Their skincare
actually feels like it's doing something. It's
not just sitting on your face and looking sticky.
It blends South Asian ingredients like ashwagandha
and vegan ghee with proper New York dermatology
tech. It's luxurious, but also very results driven.
Their line limiter is especially good if you're
starting, like me, to notice lip or laugh lines.
People compare it to Botox, which I would happily
take after all those needles in my face. And
our listeners get the highest discount they offer,
21 % off with code TFF at lovindus .com. Plus,
they ship free to Singapore, which seems like
a very rare little treat. And yes, we earn commission
when you use our code, so don't forget to support
the show by using code TFF. I think with every
choice, with every action, if you are focusing
on who you are becoming, then you think more
and more about who you are not. So it's also
about bringing our sense of awareness, our sense
of attention more to the choices or the micro
steps that we're taking versus always looking
at, okay, where would I like to be and where
am I right now? And constantly looking at the
gap. Because that can be overwhelming. That can
be overwhelming and that can feed into that sense
of, okay, I'm not enough and this is not enough.
But if we can keep our awareness to what is within
our control right now in this moment, how am
I showing up? I think that is what allows us
to then really celebrate how we're showing up
right now. focus less on the sense of lack or
not enoughness so you're you're talking about
micro steps now if we were to sort of look at
it like um your goal is at the top of the stairs
and then obviously each micro step is this is
the step so rather than looking oh i need to
get to the top you just look at what's right
in front of you that's right how long would it
Like how long would you stay at one micro step
before you kind of move to the next one? Or can
you say, I'll take two or three now and then
maybe I'll pause a bit and then maybe I'll take
one. You know, like how do you think the rhythm
works best for somebody who does want to get
to the top of the stairs? You know, that's such
a personal question. I think for each of us,
we would need to really. really dive deeper into
our own sense of what feels right for us. Because
each day looks different. You know, some days
you can show up with your 100 % and you're ready
to take five steps. Other days, you just need
to rest maybe or pause and maybe you're not even
going to take a single step. So it varies so
much. But I think in my own journey, what I've
found is as long as I keep trusting my own sense
of what feels good, what feels right, I'm okay
with setting my own pace rather than constantly...
either comparing myself to somebody else or even
constantly looking at where I would where I should
be or and where I am right now so I think I think
it is about yeah being comfortable with and and
determining your own pace and I think as women
we do do that don't we look at other women and
we're like oh you know she's got x number of
kids or her kids go to this school or her kids
are excelling at this sport and oh you know she's
managing a business and running a family And
we're constantly comparing. Yes. And looking
at timelines that are not even relevant to ours.
You know, I think of like the Marvel, the multiverse,
right? It's like she's operating in a different
universe from me. So why would I even get on
that staircase with her? You know, her step is
a different step from mine. But I know myself,
I am definitely the person who's like, if it's
three steps, I'm going to get a leg cramp and
be out of the game for four weeks. So like I'm
a half step a day type of gal. That's like where
I'm at, you know? Every day gets a half step,
but like I ain't going for three to five steps.
No, that's never that's never my way. You have
a bunch of amazing metaphors in your book. You
know, I love Jasmine's of the Staircase. I love
yours of the mighty tree in the small pot. Can
you tell us? I love this story. Can you tell
it to our listeners? Yes. So, you know, in Japan,
they have this beautiful art called the bonsai
where, you know, they. prune and nurture and
create these beautiful plants, which are essentially
these trees that look so beautiful. And what's
fascinating is when the same tree, if you put
it into a pot, it will grow maybe just a few
inches. And if you take that same plant, same
seed, and you plant it in open ground, it could
grow several feet. What? I did not know this.
Yes, yes. Really? I guess I read the book. Wow.
Yes, yes. And, you know, and then you just ask,
well, what's the difference? And I think metaphorically
the difference is that when it comes to our potential.
Question is, you know, what really contains our
potential and what allows our potential to flourish?
What is that container? And what really allows
us to tap into our fullest potential? And for
me, I think one thing that definitely plays a
huge role is the nature and the size of the goals
or challenges we're setting for ourselves in
our life. If we're only setting... comfortable
goals then we will only grow or stretch as much
as is needed to meet that goal but if when we
set inspiring goals for ourselves that almost
feels scary that that that that cause you or
or propel you to actually befriend those fears
in the process of going after those goals even
if you fail even if you fail the kind of growth
that becomes possible for you is just immense.
And that's what I experienced when I made the
leap. The first few years, there were quite a
few failures. At first, when I moved to India,
I thought of starting this investment fund. But
couldn't raise enough funding to get that off
the ground. Then I led a nonprofit for a while.
But as I like to joke, the nonprofit was so non
in its non -profiting that that folded eventually
as well. Even with every failure, the learning
and the growth that came from that is something
I'm so grateful for. And every failure prepared
me for the next step. See, because I think using
the term failure means that's it, it's the end.
But I don't actually think it's the end. I feel
like there should be another word for it because
failure is like more like a blip. Because it
didn't stop you. I think failure would have been
if it stopped you and then you said, right, you
know what? I'm throwing my hands up. I'm just
going to go and get a steady job because this
is not for me. I think that could have been failure
for you. Yes. But this felt like a little blip,
maybe a learning curve, which propels you to
the next thing. And then, you know, maybe that
wasn't quite right. And then it propels you to
the next thing. And then, you know, it's the
success you saw from that rather than the failure.
From the other stuff. Yeah. And I think that
kind of leads into another question I've got
for you is what's your thought on manifestation?
And the reason I bring this up is because yesterday
my husband was talking about football match that
the boys were all sort of going on about. And
he said the player prayed to God to score a hat
trick the night before the game. He scored a
hat trick. And then my response to that was,
do you know what he did? he put himself out there
the fact that he made that that um vision out
into the universe meant that he then went for
it so during the game he was like i need to score
a hat trick so it wasn't just about the sort
of you know manifesting and it happened it was
because he put himself in that place so what's
your sort of opinion on it and do you think that
that's something that we can all try to use to
you know get to where we want to be I think,
you know, to a great extent, the neuroscience
definitely supports that manifestation does work
because even at its simplest level, if you think
about manifestation as being able to clearly
visualize a goal as step one, even that step.
Definitely, there's so much power in that because
when you visualize something, what you're doing
for your brain is you're making the unknown known
or you're making what is unfamiliar familiar.
So now your brain knows what to go after. And
the brain doesn't always differentiate between
what we're just imagining and what's actually
there. So I think even that first step is so
powerful. And then when you combine it with the
second step, of actually taking action toward
the goal. And I'm a big believer in taking action
because if we just stop at step one. I wouldn't
say I'm a big believer in just, you know, sitting
and visualizing something and waiting for it
to happen. I don't think that's ever worked for
me. But the combination of visualizing and then
taking those concerted steps towards that vision,
which I think even in your example, it sounds
like this individual. Yeah. You know, he put
himself out there and he was there, you know,
making it happen. I think that combination can
be a powerful one. And the result of that. could
be manifesting manifesting what you originally
imagined so yes i i would say from that perspective
i i believe in it yeah that reminds me of an
old that you guys have probably all heard this
before but it's like you know this man prays
to god every night please let me win the lottery
please let me win the lottery please let me win
the lottery and after like you know 300 days
of this man sending up that prayer god finally
comes down and says can you buy a ticket It's
like you have to take the step. You can't just
ask for something with no action. And I think
that's such a powerful and obvious but not so
obvious thing sometimes. I think that also speaks
back to the fear aspect and about how women are
not putting themselves out there. They're afraid
to ask for what they want. They're afraid to
say it in public. And I think this kind of speaks
to the part in your book where you distinguish
between the I self and the me self. the I self
is me seeing. And the me self is who is seen,
right? Can you talk to us about that distinction
and how that can help women reframe this fear
of judgment? Yes, yes. So this distinction is
such an important one. And I was finally able
to put words to this distinction when I came
across the work of William James, who's this
American, famed American psychologist. And he
talks about how there are two selves, the I self
and the me self, exactly as you said. Me -self
is when you are looking at yourself through the
lens of how others would view you. So how is
the world looking at me? What are they thinking
of me? And how do I appear or seem when I look
at myself? That sounds like an Asian concept,
doesn't it? They're like how Asians sort of face.
Yes, exactly. Yes. Yes. As opposed to the I self,
which is inside out, which is. where you are
asking yourself, okay, how do I look at the world?
What are my perspectives? What is my view? What
do I value? And the more and more we... really
anchor our identity in the I self instead of
the me self, the more secure we feel. And I definitely
experienced this in my life because for the longest
time, I was anchored more in the me, thinking
about, okay, how is the world looking at me?
Do I look good? And do I, you know, am I really
checking the box in terms of what would make
me appear successful and valuable and all of
those things? And you always feel insecure when
you're looking at yourself this way because you
are operating based on the world's definition
of success, not your own. And what people think
of you is not within your control. It can shift
from day to day. So it just leaves you feeling
so, yeah, so unanchored and insecure. Over time,
especially for me, this happened as I deepened
my practice of mindfulness and I realized that
the only thing I can control is how I show up
and how I look at the world. And when I started
doing that more and more and focusing on my choices
and my actions, just by shifting your focus,
all those concerns about, well, what are other
people thinking and how are they viewing me?
They naturally start to fall into the background
because now you have given yourself a different
anchor, a different focus. And going back to
what we were talking about earlier and with each
choice, when you also keep affirming yourself
because you're self -validating and you're building
yourself up, there's less need for external.
validation that sounds like the 40s no shit's
given it's almost like that's right and it reminded
me of another discussion i have with a client
earlier this week so she was talking about how
she's struggling to not drink alcohol at work
-related events and it's basically exactly what
you said what will the client think of me right
what will the others think of me if i'm not drinking
but if she had reframed that into I am someone
who chooses when to have alcohol. That's right.
Or even, if we want to get real extreme, I am
someone who doesn't drink. Yes. When you are
confident in the identity that you have formed
for yourself, these questions of what do people
think about me not drinking don't even enter
your mind. That's right. Because I am someone.
Who controls myself around alcohol or, you know,
doesn't drink or whatever it might be. So, you
know, when you get stuck in the me's, I think
everything is a struggle, man. It just gets so
hard to operate in a world where all you're thinking
about is what others might be perceiving of you.
Because, again, you're going to be interacting
with other people for the rest of your life.
And if everyone's opinion matters, it's going
to be a long one. So our amazing sponsors, The
Meat Club, have asked a question for you today.
And you might know The Meat Club as the home
of The Conscious Carnivore, which I feel like
plays beautifully into The Conscious Choice.
How do you practice conscious choice around diet?
Are there tips that you can offer our listeners
for how to choose meals that align with their
bigger values? That's a great question. So definitely,
I think... conscious choices lend themselves
to also to your diet, because I think how we
make choices in one sphere of life definitely
carry over to other spheres as well. And how
you do one thing is how you do everything. So
I think I think absolutely what we put into our
bodies is something we absolutely need to be
very conscious of. For me, I like to call myself
plant. So I'm not 100 percent plant based, but
I like to say I'm plant. I follow a plant forward
diet. So I like to have lots of plant based foods
in my diet, but also because I'm very, very,
very big on my fitness as well. And I and and
I'm very mindful of my protein needs. So I think
to that extent, definitely I'm making conscious
choices about what are the healthy animal sources.
of protein as well that are grass fed, that are
cage free, for example, and organic. And I like
to stock my fridge with things I feel good about.
Yeah, I love that because mindfulness in our
meals is just as important as mindfulness in
our choices, our careers, our lives. I love that.
Yes. I would like to know a little bit more about
the work that you're doing with Sheenomics. It's
so interesting. You model conscious choices for
women on a global scale. Yes. Can you talk about
how Shinomics specifically disrupts these traditional
systems of leadership and how you can introduce
a more mindful model. Yeah, so when I first founded
Chinomics, and now it's been 10 years, we celebrated
our 10 year anniversary. Congratulations. Thank
you. When I first founded Chinomics, it was with
this idea that we definitely need more leaders
in the world who are living and leading with
compassion and consciously. And it just felt
inherently wrong and unfair. fair when women
take up half the sky? Why are we not encouraging
and creating a more inclusive space for women
to rise as authentic leaders as well? So that
was the aim with which we founded Chinomics.
And over the years, it's been very much about
not just moving the dial in terms of numbers.
It's not just about creating more women leaders
for the sake of creating more women leaders,
but really supporting women to rise and lead
in a way that feels authentic for them so that
in the process of growing in their careers, they
get to also both embody and role model a form
of leadership, a new form of leadership that
is more inclusive, that is more supportive of
everybody showing up as their. best. And I found
when we begin from a place of mindfulness and
self -awareness, which is essentially really
what mindful leadership is about, is beginning
with that strong foundation, that becomes the
most impactful way to really build that confidence
from within. because it's not just about changing
yourself on the outside or just learning you
know five different skills that that make you
a better leader but it's about really going deep
within to ask yourself what are the internal
shifts that will that you can make such as the
distinction between the I self and the me self
that really allow you to trust yourself more
because if you look at confidence The word confidence
comes from the Latin word confidere, which means
to trust. So confidence in the truest sense is
about trusting yourself. And that trust can only
be built within when you bring clarity to who
you truly are. are and you start to make choices
with your actions and even with your leadership
style that really aligns with what you value
and what you believe in and when you create that
alignment is when is when you show up authentically
and yeah with with a set of values that redefine
leadership It's funny because recently we've
watched two shows on TV, one on Amazon and one
on Netflix, with two strong female characters.
They're like, you know, high position. But I'm
going to be honest, I didn't like the characters
of both of them. I felt like they are portraying
that women who are in leadership roles need to
be cutthroat. They need to be bitches. They need
to basically not give a shit about anyone because
otherwise no one's going to take you seriously.
Do you think that's the right? um view of women
in leadership roles or do you think that there
might be a genuine like a different way or a
genuine way that you can still be authentic still
be yourself but not have to be a complete bitch
to get to the top you know a lot of this happens
unconsciously um whenever i hear things like
and and i do often hear that For example, there
aren't enough women helping other women. And
why is it that when some women get to the top,
they're not extending that helping hand forward
to pull other women up? And same is true with
their leadership style as well. I think what
happens in both of those instances is there is
this preset model of leadership and what a leader
looks like and behaves like. And historically,
it has been defined very narrowly and often.
according to the masculine definition of leadership
and so unconsciously many of us sometimes feel
like okay in order to prove myself in order to
be accepted as a leader I need to adopt certain
forms of showing up And when that goes against
the notion of how women should be, then, you
know, that style appears very aggressive for
women. I think it happens unconsciously, but
consciously we can choose. to define our own
way of showing up. And it need not be any of,
it need not be whatever is the prevailing model
of leadership or something that doesn't fit right
with you. I've seen leaders who are incredibly
compassionate, who are incredibly kind, who are
so, you know. collaborative and inclusive and
loved by everyone and are equally effective still.
So this is not about either or. So you can still
be a good leader. Oh, absolutely. Yes. I think
that's the big thing, isn't it? This is the thesis
of my friend, Dr. Kate Mason's book, Powerfully
Likeable. Yes. Oh, I love that. That power and
likability are not ends of a continuum. Yes.
And in fact, if you are likable, it is very much
more possible to be powerful because people like.
People respond to people that are positive and
likable. It's not that you have to turn that
part of you off to seize power. And I think that,
like you said, it's an outdated masculinist view
of power that we are above by this point in 2025.
We are beyond that. So it's almost like regressing
yourself to play into these tropes from TV, which
are like, I have to be like a man to be powerful.
It's like, ugh, like writers, get with it. Exactly,
you're becoming so woke on everything else. Can
we not have like a female president represented
on TV with like, you know, a big boxy shoulder
thing and a short haircut? And again, nothing
wrong with those choices. What I'm saying is
they're not the only choice to represent power.
Oh, I'm over it. As you can hear in my voice.
You have so many good parables and stories and
metaphors in your book, connecting these messages
about mindfulness and conscious living. Can you
share a real life story, right? So I love me
a good metaphor and a good symbolism, but can
you share with me a real life story of a client
you've worked with that has really made these
shifts you're talking about, adopted a new identity,
become more confident, has more I am affirming
statements. Like talk to me about a real person.
Oh, absolutely. There's so many examples, but
one in particular. really stands out is because
I just had a conversation with her a few days
ago. So I started coaching her two years ago,
and she's a senior leader in a corporate organization.
And at the time, I remember she was very, very
nervous about making any kinds of changes in
her life, even though even at the time she was
telling me, Pavna, there's this voice inside
me that keeps saying, I need to find my own path.
I need to find my own unique voice. Given the
level of fear she was experiencing at that time,
she wasn't ready to take any big leaps per se.
But because she was so committed, so persistent,
she kept taking those baby steps, those micro
steps, those micro choices that we've been talking
about today. And here we are now, like almost
two years later, she told me she is... Now starting
her startup. So she's finally chosen the entrepreneur
path. And her exact words to me were, Pavna,
thank you for helping me listen to that small
voice inside that always believed I could do
this. So I was just a catalyst in her journey
because it's always... I think for so many of
us as women, our sense of intuition is... there
is strong it's just about pausing and tuning
out that external voice so that you can really
listen to that small voice inside because it
does have so much wisdom so much guidance for
you and if you follow it which what which is
where we began our conversation with if you follow
that voice even if it feels scary you can be
sure it's going to lead you to someplace really
beautiful in terms of your growth even if things
don't work out exactly as you had imagined. So
here she is. And I couldn't be more proud with
the kind of leaps that she's taken. And there's
so many other stories like that. But each time,
I think what I've seen, the pattern I've seen
is finally learning to, yes, that trust yourself
and take those steps forward. Is there a situation
where you would say maybe that voice? isn't in
line with your beliefs or in line with your values.
And maybe that voice doesn't need to be louder
and you should quiet it. Like, is there a situation
where that has ever come about? So the voice
I've noticed is usually starts off as the quieter
voice. Typically, what I like to say is I think
we all have these two voices. On one hand, you
have your inner critic, which tends to be very
loud. And that's the voice in us that normally
stops us and will make you question what you're
doing or what you're saying. But then we also
have this voice that I like to call your inner
coach or your inner mentor or your inner guide.
That tends to be a softer voice. And if we don't
pause long enough to recognize what it's saying
to us, there could be this danger of mistaking
the inner critic's voice as our own voice. So
yes, that can happen. What I'm imagining here
is that I'm visualising a devil on your shoulder
and an angel on your shoulder and, you know,
both of them are talking to you. And it's almost
like the Pinocchio story where, you know, I think,
isn't the cricket called a conscious? Yeah, he's
a conscious. Yes, he is. So it's almost like
the quieter voice is your truth. True self, your
true voice. Yeah, but sometimes you flick them
off your shoulder. Get off me, Jiminy. But you're
right. And I do think, you know, you mentioned
that inner voice, that inner coach. But I love
the example that you gave with your client previously
because I do think there's a lot of power in
an outer coach. I mean, obviously, making coaching
my career, I have to say that. But also because
I read a lot of parenting literature, right?
I'm a very conscious parent, try to be, you know,
don't always succeed. And they say that for kids.
Kids need, obviously, a parent. But in absence
of good parenting, kids need what's called a
charismatic adult. They need somebody that might
be a teacher, that might be a therapist, that
might be a social worker. They need somebody
that actively, enthusiastically delights in them,
believes in them, listens to them. And I think
we all need that. And particularly this inner
voice that might be quieter for some folks and
might be almost silenced by the critic. I think
that they do sometimes need a charismatic adult,
a real person that's like, hey, you know, that's
a great idea. You have good ideas. You are a
capable person. A lot of women have not heard
that. And that's heartbreaking to me. Yes, yes.
Now, I think we all develop blind spots and you
can't always see. everything clearly or even
see yourself clearly. And when in those situations,
especially when an external charismatic, caring
voice can can look at you and affirm what they
see in terms of your potential and what you can
do and what you are capable of. I think that
that can be hugely impactful in a little positive
me self. Right. Like I'm an external, you know,
I'm an external person. But let me tell you about.
how well you're doing yes so gal this is time
for a little feature on our show that we love
just a fun little kind of popcorn feature called
hot or hype so i'm going to pitch you some ideas
and kind of self -help self -improvement you
tell me if you think it's hot legit you think
it's hype okay okay vision boards Hmm. Um, I'm
going to go with, uh, I, this one I'm, I'm on
the fence about, but if I really have to lean
one way or the other, I would say hype. Oh, I
thought, I thought you were going to tip hot.
Yeah. I thought you were going to say hot. Tell
me, tell me why it's hypey. Because. Only because
if that's all we're doing, if that's the only
step, I think going back to our previous conversation,
if it's if that's all we're doing and sometimes
there is this danger of thinking, OK, as long
as I've created this vision board, then that's
it. It's going to just manifest itself. So provided
that's only step one and then step two is you
are taking concerted action, then yes, then I'm
all for vision boards. Yeah, I hear you, girl.
It's one of those things where it's like, and
also how much time did you spend on that vision
board that you could have been, you know, like
pitching an agent or, you know, like doing something
that would actually get you the thing that you
need to do. I hear you. Meditation retreats.
I'm going to say hype. Wow. See, I thought you'd
be all pro. Tell me why hype. Okay, and again,
I think it all depends on the kind of approach
you're taking to it. If meditation retreat is
to deepen your practice, strengthen your practice,
then I think it's beautiful. But if meditation
retreat is something that you're only doing on
a one -off basis, it's not something you are
actively in a sustainable way. choosing and practicing
every single day and just once a year you say
okay i'll go to a meditation retreat to make
everything go better yeah it's the juice detox
of mindfulness it's like i'll take three days
and clear it out yeah ready for more trash yeah
so if it's a one -off choice i don't think it's
going to have the kind of impact that it could
have but if it's something yeah if it's to reaffirm
reinforce what you're already practicing It's
awesome. Have you done one? Yes. Have you done
like a silent retreat? Yes. In fact, my whole
mindfulness journey began with doing 10 days
of what is called Vipassana meditation, where
you meditate for 10 hours a day and complete
silence. It was a game changer. I can imagine
that was a game changer. That's like a meditation
hard stop. You took off of everything to do that
for 10 days. Was that at the beginning of your
entrepreneurial journey? It was at the beginning
of my journey. Now I can't even imagine going
away for 10 days as a mom to do that. But I'm
glad, yes, it created that strong foundation
and I've tried to sustain that practice since
then. That's amazing. The soft life movement.
I'm going to say hot. Yeah. Okay, I don't know
what the soft life movement is. Have I missed
something? It's basically getting out of the
rat race. So it's like a mindful disengagement
with... success the you know uh you know the
race for better grades better schools better
jobs better it's like i won't do that i'm going
to live on a farm and yeah i say that i don't
think the soft life necessarily means abandoning
our ambition but it's defining ambition on your
own terms which is what our conversation today
has been about. It's about choosing for yourself
when you're ready to accelerate, when you're
ready to slow down, what kind of boundaries you
want to set for yourself, what you want to say
no to, what you want to say yes to. So it's just
a more thoughtful, conscious approach to moving
ahead. But it need not mean giving up everything
or moving to a farm or moving to, you know. Being
a Buddhist monastery. It reminds me, are you
familiar with Neha Rush and the power pause?
No. Basically the idea that you can consciously,
mindfully, and powerfully choose to not work
in the early stages or continuing stages of motherhood.
So it's not that you are now a stay -at -home
mom. It's that I have chosen this time to do
this act of mothering in the way that I want
to do it and that there's power in that choice.
So I think that's like a version of the soft
life movement, I think. Yeah, that's one choice
that didn't make it into my book. The choice
between calling something a sacrifice versus
a decision. And especially what you're talking
about in terms of taking that pause after motherhood,
instead of thinking, oh, I made a sacrifice or
I'm sacrificing my career to raise my children
or vice versa, to actually say I'm consciously
choosing this because I value this. I value this
time with my family. And when I'm ready, I'll
know when I'm ready to recommit to my professional
life as well. So, yes. And I wonder how much
of that. is the identity you know if you've built
your whole identity around your job your career
then when you do take a break to um raise your
children that feels more out of line with who
You were. That's right. But you can make that
into it. Well, that was who I was. But now this
is who I am. Oh, yeah. It's a new I am statement.
Yeah. I mean, I see this with fitness all the
time. Yeah. You know, I'm working on a book on
fitness and motherhood. Yeah. And identity is
at the center of the book because a lot of women
are. They decide that they have sacrificed their
bodies to become a mother. And that's the end
of fitness time. And now it's motherhood time.
And it's like, but what if motherhood time and
fitness time were the same time? You know, what
if you could see an identity that was a fit mother?
Correct. And then once that becomes resonant
for you, then the world's your oyster. Yeah.
Really, truly. So, Gal, we've come to the end
of the interview and you have given us incredible
amounts to think about. And I encourage everyone
to read your book because, guys, this is the
tip of the iceberg for conscious choice. But
we'd love to know from you, what is your 40s
formula? For our listeners out there who are
looking for ways to thrive in this decade, what
can you offer them? I think. My 40s formula is
constantly telling myself that I'm not done yet.
You know, it's constantly reminding myself that
wherever I may be, in whatever phase of life,
and especially now, that this is not the end
of the story. If anything, I can use this phase
of my life with the kind of... experience and
wisdom that comes for so many of us by the time
we reach our 40s I can use that as a launch pad
to really reignite or reinvent myself in bigger
and bolder ways so the next few decades of my
life look even more remarkable. So I think it's,
it's that conscious choice to really think of
it, not as a stopping point, but as a launch
pad for, for even greater impact and, and, and
living. Yes. Incredible. Yeah. We are not out
to pasture, man. Lots of living to do. Yes. Well,
thank you so much for being with us today. We
have loved interviewing Bhavna. Thank you. Thank
you. It was lovely speaking to you both. Thank
you. Bye. I'm trying to figure out how to dress
the children because my children are skinny and
they get cold like they were cold the other day
in Singapore. They're skinny Singaporean children.
It has been a little colder lately. So I was
just like right okay how many layers do they
need and then I've realized okay well you can't
do cotton because if they start sweating it's
going to absorb it and then I'm like oh god I
was like planning on getting them vests and thermals
and then I'm like well all the vests are cotton
vests. No! because I need to figure out how to
dress them. I'm confused. Even though I grew
up in England, it doesn't get that cold. There
we just wear, you know, like two layers. And
again, I've blocked that part of my memory of
cold winters.