People really judge you within two to seven seconds.
So basically, you've made up your mind before
anything's even happened. And that only actually
leaves 7 % in words. What is the number one thing
women in particular get wrong when they show
up to a room? A lot of us go into situations
only thinking about what we're going to say.
It's a micro expression. They're like brain leaks.
Micro expressions is we obviously don't know
when we're making those because they're so unconscious.
You can't tame it because they're highly connected
to your nervous system and to your limbic brain.
So you could be saying all the right things,
but then there's that mismatch. Being confident,
it's short term impressive. Being congruent is
long term to building connections. Wow, I love
that. Before we speak a single word. Our bodies
have already said a paragraph, and most of us
have no idea what we're actually broadcasting.
Today, we're pulling back the curtain on the
tiny signals that shape how we're perceived,
the micro -expressions we don't realize we're
making, the gestures we think look confident
but actually scream of uncertainty, and the subtle
cues that tell someone we're checked out, even
when we're trying to be polite. We're diving
deep into the difference between confidence and
congruence. how to read the clusters of behavior
that reveal how someone really feels, and why
your body is always three steps ahead of your
words. And yes, we're talking about how all of
this shifts for women in our 40s, when hormones,
stress, and identity collide in new and sometimes
volatile ways. If you're ever wondering why some
people instantly command a room or how you can
show up with more calm, clarity, and presence,
this episode is your masterclass. And if this
episode inspired you to show up better in any
room, please like, subscribe and share it with
a friend who could use some boost of self -assurance.
Don't forget to download our free ebook for insider
tips and tricks from our expert guests here on
the podcast. Visit thefortiesformula .com to
get yours today. Welcome Pooja. Thanks for being
with us today. Thank you for having me. It is
a real honor and I'm super excited about this
topic. It's something that I have been really
invested in for the last 11 years of my life.
And this is the first time I'm bringing it to
a podcast. Wow. TFF exclusive, folks. Well, you've
been invested in it for 11 years. There was a
short time where I was invested in it. And the
reason is because I actually majored in nonverbal
communication at the University of Southern California.
So it's something that is really near and dear.
my heart. And I feel that it doesn't get enough
understanding. We don't know enough tips for
women to actually harness the power of nonverbal
communication. It's huge. Yes. But before we,
you know, say a single word to each other, right,
we're already all communicating in this room.
Yeah. What do you think is the number one thing
women in particular get wrong when they show
up to a room? Yeah. And that is a fantastic question
because there is. not enough data and there's
not enough awareness on how we show up in the
room and literally 55 % of the communication
we are having right now is in our body language.
I don't know if you notice all three of us are
kind of mirroring each other, you know, and that's
a natural thing when you're already in resonance
with someone, when you already have a rapport.
And then there's research to also say that 38
% is in our voice tone and, you know, our tenacity
and our pitch and our volume. And that only actually
leaves 7 % in words. And this is according to
the Merabian model, which is from nine. But it
still remains and holds true. And there's also
something known as thin slicing, which is a model
that was developed from Robert Rosenthal, where
he says that people really judge you not within
seven seconds, but within two to seven seconds
of meeting them for the first time. Oh my gosh.
Fucking hell, that's such a short time. Thin
sliced indeed. It's like thin sliced. It's really,
it's really. It's like a slice of ham, girl,
two seconds. So basically, it's almost like you've
made up your mind before anything's even happened.
You see someone and it's like, right, this is.
A person behaving this way or whatever it is.
Yeah. And the thing is, we're not consciously
it's we're very unconsciously assessing or judging
someone. It's based on our limbic brain. So our
limbic brain is always assessing. Are you an
ally or are you a threat? Do I feel safe with
you or do I, you know, can I trust your intentions?
And the entire basis of thin slicing is that
is, you know, within that first two to seven
seconds is assessing. on first impression basis,
which is very hard to revert back, by the way.
So once you do come off in that first impression
as a particular way, on the limbic brain level,
it's very hard to go back to or to change that.
Because there are things that we can't change
and we can't tame in our behavior. We'll talk
about that in a bit. But the issue with this
is that a lot of us go into situations only thinking
about what we're going to say. And we're not
paying enough attention to, you know, how we're
going to be perceived in terms of our nonverbals.
So it's imperative to not only just understand,
like, you know, what these gestures and nonverbal
cues mean, like what they're signaling, but also
to be able to say, okay, I'm going to go into
this situation, not just pay attention to my
words, but also focus on how I'm sitting. what
I'm doing to build rapport on a deeply unconscious
level so that I come across as what I want to
portray, right? And often people get nervous,
women get nervous, and they get into a situation
and they're walking into a networking event or
they're walking into a constructive feedback
session or they're entering a new job. And they're
primarily thinking of what they want to say.
But because of that, they're not focused on...
perhaps their posture. So, you know, because
of their nerves, they could be, you know, kind
of shrinking or taking up less space in the room.
Their feet could be turned inward, you know.
So there's a whole like myriad of things that
people do when they're not really paying attention.
They're probably leaning out when they should
be leaning in. And so it's really important to
be able to not only identify, but learn how to
cater and master those nonverbal cues so that
you can go into it. situation almost automatically
on reflex with these tools you know so what does
the feet turned in actually mean yeah so people
that often have their feet turned in and actually
on a very subconscious level you would know this
they're nervous there's something that they're
trying to close off from we'll talk about partial
cross -barrier gestures later but it's almost
like a cross -barrier gesture And we'll talk
about the feet later, but feet actually play
a really large role in like what's actually going
on in the limbic brain. So feet turn inward is
something that most people don't realize that
it actually conveys that this I'm here. I'm not
fully open. yeah almost like you said like crossing
it off yes yes and kids do this by the way when
they go to school like you know if you you think
back you know like or if you see an image you'll
often see kids that are bullied or nervous or
anxious they'll have their feet turned in wow
yeah and so then what is a good sort of power
posture for a woman like you've walked into a
networking event yeah let's say you know it's
a corporate it's the corporate world yeah there's
a lot of men in that room a lot of testosterone
going on how should a woman sort of command the
room like what's the best way to yeah in and
take charge so I would definitely say that there
has to be openness in the chest level so I so
you know often we tend to walk in and kind of
go to a corner but actually go in look around
expand this area of your body and make eye contact
with everyone because then you're signaling that
you're open and that you're not scared you know
um how in a networking event one of the most
important things is to always have your feet
pointed towards two directions if you're just
walking in so if you're standing always because
what you're doing then is you're signaling that
you're open to other people joining that group
And your dominant foot, which is the right one,
if you're right -handed, or your left one if
you're left -handed. Although I'm a bit weird.
So I'm right -handed, but my dominant foot is
actually my left. So you know that already? That's
amazing. Because a lot of us don't actually know
what our... And that's interesting, actually,
in a way. I've never really... Yeah. I would
say then, I guess, focus more on your left foot.
Or, you know, it's just it's to almost invite
someone. It's like an invisible line connecting
someone to come into your territory. where your
foot is pointing that is so interesting that
is so good to know because we went to a an event
a couple of days ago yeah I was there first Amanda
was running late and you know I've walked in
and I've got like my umbrella because it was
pissing it down with rain I've got my bag and
I'm just like fucking hell and there were a lot
of men in there as well you know and then I'm
like looking around thinking oh Jesus Christ
you know all these women who were there were
already closed off into their groups yes and
then luckily I mean you know someone came over
and spoke to me but I was just kind of like oh
there's been a while I've not done this in a
while yeah it's super unnerving to be in that
situation and and I think when you people will
not come up to you if they think you're closed
or that you don't want to interact with them
but if if if you know if you're showing people
that you're open and that you're facing them
and that you know you're you're making eye contact
and smiling just that little bit not too much
but it's it's an openness it's an invitedness
that you know I actually quite like that you
said not too much because I feel like if I saw
somebody walking in with like a huge smile i'll
be like oh that's a bit freaky do i know yeah
it's like you you kind of want to stay away from
those people because you're like what's going
on yeah what's with that guy yeah although i
will say i always joke that my husband and i
i think one of the main reasons that we connected
like so quickly and so immediately like we did
is because we are both default smilers oh so
you know there's resting bitch face yeah right
and there's default smilers which is like you
just you can't help but smile whatever you know
i'm out for a jog and if i'm approaching somebody
i'm just gonna have to smile at him my husband
is the same he's a default smile i'm resting
bitch That's why we work well together. But that's
learned behavior, right? The default smile, the
RBA. Thank you for bringing it very professionally,
Pooja. It's learned. You mentioned about entering
a room, like a networking event, and thinking
about all the things you want to say. And that
made me think about the most powerful assignment
I ever did in my nonverbal communication major,
which was as follows. We had to prepare a speech.
And the assignment was to... prepare a speech
on something that is well within your expertise
something you feel incredibly confident right
teaching another person yeah so this is so dumb
right this is back in college i was gonna do
mine on making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich
right i was like i am master of the pbj yeah
i have a whole system yeah which knife to you
so i like planned all of that stuff right yes
and i did mine and everyone in class did theirs
fantastic and then the professor played everyone's
videos back okay on mute oh wow meaning He didn't
give a shit about what we were teaching. He wanted
to know when you are presenting information,
you are. infinitely confident with. Yeah. How
do you look? Yes. Do you look like you're confident?
Do you, does it, is it clear what you're teaching?
Yes. You know, like with my, I'm not saying I
got, it was like the best in the classroom, but
like you knew I was making a sandwich. Yeah.
Okay. Because it was, it was so clear from the
gestures and the steps, you know, that were laid
out, even though it was obviously, you know,
no one could hear what was actually being said.
So it was, I mean, it could have been a chicken
sandwich. It could have been a chicken sandwich.
If you're sweating your chicken, you might be
eating some pretty gross shit. I love that. But
you know, I think what was important in that
lesson, is kind of micro expressions, micro behaviors,
small things that communicated. Am I proficient
even when I feel like I'm an expert? And when
we're networking, we're experts in ourselves.
We're experts in our brands. So are we communicating
that? Can you explain micro expressions, micro
behaviors and kind of how those can be powerful
for women? Yeah. And so. That is such a powerful
analogy. I love how you drew that into the peanut
butter. Oh, wow. I do a good PBJ. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. And I'll never forget that about you now.
So, you know, the thing is with micro expressions
is that they're like they're subtle leaks that
come out from our face that kind of give away
our emotional what's going on behind the scenes.
Right. And so they're cues to other people. Basically,
and it happens within 1 25th of a second. What?
Yes. I thought we got two seconds, girl. Now
we got 1 25th. Mike, okay, for general body language
gestures and overall kind of appearance, that's
within two to seven. But 1 25th of a second is
when the micro expression takes place. And, you
know, like, for example, if you're telling someone
a piece of good news about you and perhaps they
feel threatened or they're jealous, you will
see a flash that happens in their eyes just before
they smile or they congratulate you. And or like
a wrinkled nose. There are certain things that
happen, a tense jaw or tightening around the
eyes. Those are micro examples. There's ten thousands
of them, but those are examples. And that flashes,
that's a micro expression. That's what happens
before you consciously put on your face. So they
reveal our true emotions and what's going on
behind the scenes. And they're like brain leaks,
okay? They're brain leaks. And our limbic brain
is able to pick up on it on someone's mind very
quickly, right? Because our limbic brain is always
looking for threat. What I really actually wanted
to say about the microexpressions is that there's
two things, actually. The first thing is that
we actually obviously don't know when we're making
those because they're so unconscious. They're
so hardwired to our mindset, right? That's why
you can feel people's energy before they walk
into a room or as they walk into a room, because
you can see that, OK, fine, something about them
is, you know, their mindset, their energy. It's
pervading them. It's percolating. Right. But
so micro expressions are like the quickest way
that we make those judgments. And so, number
one, we can't we don't know. that we're making
them and secondly we can't see our own micro
expressions and you can't control it then and
because of that you can't tame it because they're
highly connected to your nervous system and to
your brain to your limbic brain so you know you
could be saying all the right things but then
there's that mismatch right well and that's where
congruence comes yeah exactly so so it's a very
uh fine line then you have micro behavior micro
behavior is subtle nonverbal cues that give off
between that two to seven seconds of discomfort,
disengagement, engagement, or feeling of interest.
So that could be where your feet are angled towards,
whether you're leaning towards someone, whether
you're using diminished gestures, which I'll
talk about later. And also, for example, not
microexpressions. It's beyond the face, right?
It's basically your general... how you're moving,
how you're moving. Those are all pivotal information
for someone who's new that's coming into a situation
or even a good friend that you somehow, you know,
you somehow kind of. You know them, but you actually
don't really know them. That's where these micro
-expressions and micro -behavior really come
in. You're trying to kind of assess that person.
Like you said, kind of feel their energy. Feel
their energy. And that's where this comes. The
other body language things that we can taper,
those ones are a little bit more contrived and
can be manipulated. But these you can't because
they give you away very quickly. One twenty -fifth
of a second and then between two and seven seconds.
So what if we're a bad micro behavior, behavior?
You know what I mean? Like what if, what if unfortunately
our micro expressions, micro behaviors. are off
-putting. You know, and that's where it's related
to your mindset. So none of this, so a very,
and that's why women that are in their 50s and
60s come across as being so much more congruent
than those that are in their 20s, 30s and 40s,
because they've overcome all those mental blocks
in their head. Their mindset is a lot more mature.
So they come across and that streams through
their body. You know, we talk a lot about body
language, but we don't talk about the mindset,
which is the preceding factor for how we move
and how we, you know, those micro expressions.
So is that then related to your core values,
your inner beliefs? Yes. Those are the things
based on, you know, what you actually believe
will show up. in micro expressions when you're
having a conversation with somebody else absolutely
because if if if if you're the type that's very
insecure and you know you you hear a piece of
good news it's going to show up on your face
quickly before you know or if you're the type
that you know is a fearful type of person you
know um or you're constantly judging someone
that's gonna show up before the contri facial
expression actually comes so you can and i the
thing is everyone's scared of like sitting with
me because they're like, you're going to be able
to read me. Very true. But the truth is I can't.
And that's why I always say it takes me a few
hours to feel someone's energy because you can't
consciously assess someone's micro expression
on a conscious level. Your limbic brain has already
done that. But I can't tell you within. you know,
10 minutes of meeting someone, what their energy
is really like, because it takes time for the
subconscious mind to process that information
with all the other information. But that happens
immediately. So and then you feel it after you're
like, OK, how did that feel? OK, I felt something
was a bit off. That's when the real information,
that's where those micro expressions actually
play a large role in. So what about like. Obviously,
if you're saying that when you meet somebody,
you initially form, I guess, not an opinion,
but, you know, like you're already judging them.
I've had moments where I've might have thought
somebody was a complete arsehole. But then after
getting to know them, I'm like, actually, you
know, I actually quite like them. Yes. So that
so then those those micro expressions that you're
getting through. Yes. Your initial ones were
wrong? No. In fact, their micro expressions expressed
who they truly were. Oh, so he's still a dick.
So on the contrary, you may not realize this,
but his micro expressions were actually good
and actually showed he was a good person. But
his other body language and what he was saying
made him contradictory to actually what he really
was. That's interesting. Yeah. Okay. And that's
why you were able to kind of come around to him
as a nice person. Because you said your limbic
brain subconsciously already recognized it. Your
limbic brain would have realized that already.
Okay. Just to kind of add there, I'm not saying
that this is my husband. I just mean in general.
That would be so funny if it was. So you've mentioned
the word congruence a couple of times. And I
mentioned in the intro, right, there's a difference
between confidence and congruence. But I don't
know that every woman could distinguish between
those. Can you help us with that? Yeah. And honestly,
you know, this is probably one of the best questions
I've ever been asked about body language. And
the difference is so stark. And everyone has
this misconception that you need to be confident
to walk into a room. The hard truth is you need
to be congruent. Now, why is this? Number one,
because confidence is a state and it's based
on performance. And that performance is based
on acting. So the limbic brain will be able to
detect a mismatch. It's called mismatching. If
that confidence is not congruent with someone's
thoughts, their words, their actions, their tone
of voice. So that's where congruence. congruence
is not a state it's alignment between the tone
the words the voice and the body language and
there's a sense of inner coherence in that person
which you will feel not just on a subconscious
level but you will feel that their energy is
very calming and grounding when you're around
them so the the difference and i always love
to say this so being confident in a room because
it's performance -based it's short -term impressive
but being congruent in a room is long -term to
building connections wow i love that i think
such an important distinct like distinction to
make between the two yeah because i think we
always Talk about confidence. You need to be
confident. I talk about it all the time. Yeah.
So I think it's interesting to think like if
it's inauthentic. Yes. Then it probably backfires
on you. Absolutely. And you know why it's inauthentic?
Because if it's performance based, it's literally
like your nervous system is fighting itself.
So, you know, you don't want to be in that state.
So that is why when it comes to being congruent,
it's all about the mindset. Is this person? experienced
enough have they gone through enough in life
are they able to overcome obstacles are they
judgmental it's it's a lot about our personality
yeah so congruence is very personality driven
and confidence is very performance driven so
so i guess the younger you are the more sort
of confidence based you are yeah like you mentioned
like when you get into your 50s or 60s you're
more experienced you kind of more set in your
ways so you are more congruent wow like why do
we want to spend time with older people yeah
right if you think about it there's a certain
peace and feeling of groundedness that you get
absolutely and their wisdom and their wisdom
feels so kind of calming yeah and it percolates
through their bodies and you know that's that
question you asked on micro expressions so let's
say you're a very congruent human being those
micro expressions will reflect that immediately
it will be in alignment you don't have to be
the most calming present grounded human being
like for example that guy you were talking about
that you felt you know was had that bit of that
quality but there was something in him that was
congruent in him that what he said what he intended
to like he was gonna do say what he what he was
actually gonna do there's a lot of people that
come across as one way but behind the scenes
they're not like that you know so And they can
be, you know what you mentioned, right? They
can be that, right? So, I mean, in a way, but
at least they're congruent. You know, they're
congruent with what they say they are. So we
talked a lot about confidence, congruence, and
kind of your best self, right? How do I arrive
in a room? How do I make an impression? But on
the flip side of that. How can you tell if someone
is disengaged, disinterested? How kind of does
that look? Yeah. And this is my favorite. So
I've been teaching this to corporates for 11
years. And every time I teach this topic, they're
shocked because nobody talks about the lower
part of the body. Yeah. Right. And that's the
our legs and feet are connected directly to our
amygdala and our limbic system. And that's because
when we were disengaged, our feet actually start
pointing towards the exit. oh wow wow or to another
person and we're not consciously doing this so
our torso is actually facing towards them right
but their feet are facing obviously if we're
angled in a particular way it's impossible to
have your feet always but if you're in a networking
situation or you're standing with someone and
you notice that one of their feet is pointing
outwards oh boy you've had it that means that
their their attention or where they're planning
to go next is that direction so it's not towards
you so yes exactly but there are people who are
super intense and then both their feet are pointing
towards you those ones are super engaged but
they also could be a little bit kinesthetic what
we call kinesthetic where they need to be close
to you so proximity plays a huge difference in
this and they need to feel connected to you to
really engage and so that's when both feet are
pointing and you know in social situations um
you It's so funny. When I was doing all my research
on this, I actually experimented with this at
a lunch table with all the girls. Of course,
I didn't tell them. So, you know, if you look
down under the table when you're with a group
of girls, you can tell exactly who's the alpha
on that table just by seeing where the feet are
pointed at. Not because they're wearing the best
shoes. Not because they're wearing the best shoes.
Because Jasmine's shoe game outdoes me in every
possible way. Oh, that's so cute. But it's so
cool. So you can actually tell. And then you
know where everyone's attention is, you know.
even if someone's torso is facing towards you,
but their feet are kind of like, that's the big
sign of disengagement. where they're kind of
wanting to go next that is so interesting it's
like they're one foot out the door literally
literally that's it so is that then a partial
gesture is that what no that's not a partial
that's a that's an actual full -on full -on escape
room which most people don't know about right
like i've never ever thought i obviously cannot
stop thinking about it now yeah it's all i will
be looking at yeah you're gonna be looking at
everyone's feet when you're interacting with
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You know, when you're in deep resonance with
people and it's largely unconscious. So a lot
of the time we're marrying and matching people
just naturally. And if you catch yourself doing
that, that's great. But if you catch yourself
kind of doing the opposite. So, for example,
we're all leaning in now, right? But if you find
that, you know, you're kind of like leaning back
or you notice that someone is kind of disengaged,
you know. and their hands are on the sofa and
they're leaning back, that could be a signal
that perhaps, you know, okay, they're ready to
kind of move on with the conversation or that
they're done, you know, or maybe there's something
that disturbed them and they don't really know
how to handle it. So disinterest and disengagement
actually interact quite. You know, it's a very
telltale signs, you know, quite similar. And
disengaged also could mean like stillness in
the body as well. So, you know, someone who's
very active in using gestures, which is recommended
if you want to come across as being charismatic.
If they are in a state where suddenly their hands
go down and they go below the box level, which
is just below our torso, then that's a sign that
they're pretty much like, and they get still,
they're checking out. The feet are a big thing
on checking out and so are the gestures. I never
thought about like the lowering of the hand.
And I would think like, obviously the end point
is like putting it in your pocket, you know,
like hiding the hand, like you're literally out.
That's right, exactly. That is so interesting.
So you mentioned that. Having gestures can be
a good sign. Yes. Can someone overdo it? Yes.
And I'll tell you how people overdo gestures.
So we have a safe box, which is from our shoulders
down to our core or lower, you know, below our
abdomen. The minute the gestures go outside or
up, they're perceived as erratic or nervous or
unsteady. So you always want to keep your gestures
within this box. You'll see political leaders,
they're taught. By the way, all this is taught
to political leaders and FBI experts. But what
they'll do is when they have a really big point
to make, they'll do it just once up here. But
they are never recommended to go outside that
box. Okay, so this space. This is your safe space.
Safe box. Okay, question though, Pooja. Yeah.
Is that a little bit cultural? Because I will
say I do feel like Americans, of which I am one.
have some pretty large gestures. That's true.
We do a lot here, a lot of this. But really,
truly, is there kind of cultural normativity
whereby Americans talking to Americans can accept
that? Or on the flip side of that, Americans...
talking to other people from other countries
should be aware of that. I'm going to be a white
dick here, but I wonder if Americans are, you
know, they want to be seen as the big dick in
the room. Not you in general. Unfortunately true.
In general. Could be my dick and other dicks.
And also even if... The origin of that is that
we want to be the big dick in the room, but then
we've learned it. And then that's all we know.
It's a learned behavior. So you're absolutely
right. And that's cultural dependent, right?
So the average norm of people that keep it within
the box are taught. These are all learned behaviors.
when you're asking about gestures, it's highly
learned. And we have certain gestures that we
use as well that we're taught. These are all
learned. The open palm, the downward palm, the
steeple, you know? Oh, the steeple. Oh, I like
the steeple. Yeah, those are all culturally.
But however, the micro behaviors and the micro
expressions, those are biologically wired and
those are universal. So you won't be able to
tame those, but you can tame the other gestures
through conscious awareness. Are you Singaporean?
I am British. But you don't sound British. I've
lived in a lot of countries. I was only asking
because I was like, are there specific norms
for Singaporeans? So in fact, in Singapore, they
don't really, the Asian... the Southeast Asians
don't use gestures that much. And that's just
because we, I mean, the Southeast Asians are
kind of taught to kind of take less space. Whereas
in Western culture, you're taught to take. a
lot of space. And in American culture, you take
all the space. And actually, Europeans are quite
similar to the Southeast Asians in the sense
they don't actually take up that. The British
actually stay within their box. And so proximity
is cultural. So, you know, there are certain
distances that they say are personal, social.
I don't believe that because I believe that's
culturally based. So in India, for example. um
if you were to you know the streets are so crowded
the where it's wherever the population is most
dense so in india because the population is so
dense um proximity to people doesn't make a difference
someone will bump into you in a road and you'll
be fine with it right so people in india tend
to talk very closely to each other i find that
very awkward like i'm like i need some space
yeah yeah yeah and you know um And it's the same
with China, right? So people in China will also,
because it's such a big population that they've
been kind of primed that this is normal and village
populations. However, if it's a place where it's
sparse, sparsely populated and there's more land
area to people, then you will find that the distances
kind of go further and further. So what's the,
I guess, if we're looking, obviously. Just in
general terms, what's the safe recommended distance
between people? Okay, so again, that's culturally
based. It's hard to say. But personal space on
average should be about three feet. meters how
much is that three feet it's not that bad it's
that much so it's like half a meter okay let's
say oh yes because feet and meters yeah so it's
it's about like halfway i would say that's personal
space social space is when you're like in a group
and there's about a meter and a half of distance
okay you know but again this is all culturally
dependent we can't really put a you know and
there's four elements to non -verbal communication
by the way it's not just body language it's also
proximity It's it's culture, it's environment,
it's context. So it's it's a whole range of it's
touch. Can you believe that touch is a huge part
of nonverbal communication? Wow. And I guess
that was also situation dependent, you know,
like you wouldn't want to be at a networking
event and somebody. Yeah. And the reason I bring
this up is because some client put his hand on
one female there and she did not like it. And,
you know, it caused. an issue absolutely and
so i guess it does it's like context dependent
yeah because you know like we're having a chat
you're always i mean yeah but you know like not
yeah i'm thinking about the event on tuesday
because again we were at a networking event that
just so happened like in a very i would say a
very conventional industry networking yeah right
where it's like everyone's a stranger and then
it's us right and i know for a fact that i touched
the two women that we were talking with i know
for a fact because we were getting each other
i mean you are a bit of a toucher whereas when
we were in the conversation with that the male
person that was there i would never have touched
that person and if he had touched me it would
have been extremely obvious yes yes so i think
gender yeah gender plays a huge role in that
absolutely and it's actually called haptics but
there's a lot of science to say that you know
just touching someone for 1 20th of a second
so it's really quick it's it's really good and
for women it's on the shoulder and like in the
upper arm area but you know obviously for men
and women it's that that's you know do men touch
each other They do. In fact, they pat each other
on the back. Yeah, pat. Yeah, bro hug. Yeah,
yeah. And it's a bit of a dominant gesture. So,
yeah. The patter? The patter. Not the patty?
You'll see that with handshakes. What they'll
do is they'll actually take the hand and a lot
of... dominant men, political leaders will always
want to have it on top of the other one. So you'll
see Trump do that with everyone. But I think
that's such a well -known thing that he does
that, that people just expect that he's going
to flip your hand over. And it's for the photos,
basically. So Amanda, you know how I've been
on this journey about improving my sleep? Oh,
you have been obsessed about it lately. Well,
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and use that code TFF today. What is haptics?
Haptics is touch. Oh, okay, so optics is... It's
the science of touching. Visibility, haptics
is... Optics is correct, yeah. Okay, because
I'm not familiar with that term. You know haptics?
Never heard of it. It's the four modules in nonverbal
communication, one of the four modules, which
I was really shocked about because it's body
language, environment, proximity, and haptics.
Oh, okay. So touching is literally its own full
category of nonverbal communication. It's a full
category. Does lack of touching also count as
touching? Do you know what I'm saying? Like the
choice not to? It depends where you are. In India,
everyone's very touchy, which is lovely. It's
a very kinesthetic culture. It's a collectivist
culture. So if you're in a collectivist culture,
touch is accepted and it's rewarded. But if you're
in an individualistic culture, then it's actually
kind of looked a little bit like, no, this is
not like, you know, I need my space. And I have
experienced this because I'm a very touchy feely
person. And I for me, that's how I bond. And
I'm very touchy feely with my kids. I'm always
trying to hug them. And, you know, and and they're
like, you know, but that's how I grew up. You
know, like I grew up in a very Asian. I was born
in the Philippines. Very, very tactile and kinesthetic.
I lived in India. I lived in. So, you know, I've
been around. I feel like you've lived in the
touchiest possible places. Exactly. Really, truly.
It's true. Well, and it's funny when you came
in here today. We both hugged you. We've never
met you. Last time. But I saw Jasmine hug you.
And then that opened up, again, that door. That
doorway that, okay, she can hug. Yeah. Because
I would also hug. Yes. But I wouldn't hug if
I didn't know the guest was comfortable with
it. So it's like once you hug Jasmine, but you
must have gotten the initial hug cue. Yes. You
must have, right? How did you go to hug her?
I come quite close. Okay, this feels like it's
a hug moment. So cute. That's me. And everyone
says you always give the biggest hugs. And it's
true because that's who I am intrinsically. You
know, that's all I know. I feel very uncomfortable
if I'm not, you know, engaging with someone kinesthetically,
you know. And would you also hug, you know, like
if you met a male for the first time, would you
be hugging a male as well? With men I'm a little
bit more. more okay i can i'll be able to sense
like is this the right person like but usually
it's more of like that that the distance is there
if it's a family friend yes definitely like you
know that's like goes without saying but you
know or a cousin or or my brother you know my
son hates it he gives me the top of his head
and he's he's six foot he's 16 i know so he doesn't
allow me to come close to him but it's the age
yes you know i remember my brother doing that
with my mom too absolutely and they give you
but our sons will never do that right so when
i was like my son will hug me forever right my
little sweet one and four oh they will hug me
forever right oh my god just hug them as much
as you can oh i was like i just need you to lie
to me puja yeah and implant into their brains
that when they're older they need to hug you
their mama needs it yeah yeah so we talked about
micro behaviors partial gestures you know kind
of but how do we put it together. I know that
you've talked before about clusters, right? Like
putting clusters of cues. Is there a finesse
in that? There is a huge finesse. So we cannot
judge someone's body language just by one movement
that they make. And this is called baselining.
So baselining is basically assessing what's their
normal body language and what is different from
their normal body language. So often you can
tell if someone's uncomfortable because if their
hands are here like for 30 minutes and, you know,
they're speaking. And their hands are kind of
below shoulder level. And then suddenly their
hand goes up here. Okay, that's a cue that they're
uncomfortable because this is where a cartoroid
artery is placed. And this is really good even
in dating. You can assess if a woman is interested
or comfortable with another man because their
head will be tilted kind of to the side when
they feel attracted. They're exposing their cartroid
artery. And so the head tilt is a big sign of
interest and comfort. And it's hypnotic. Our
neck, when it relaxes and we feel comfortable,
it naturally, I think you've seen this in dogs
and kids, when they're super interested and engaged
and captivated, they'll naturally just. And my
dog does do that. He will put his head to the
side. And I'll be like, oh, I love it when you
do that face. That makes sense. Because they're
super engaged in you. And they're exposing this
part of... This is where all the partial cross
-barrier gestures take place in your core area.
Because this is where your internal organs are.
Whenever your hands go up here, so this is kind
of like a half signal of discomfort. It's a gray
area between us here, but I'm not fully open.
And someone that puts their coffee cup like in
front of them, they're protecting their core.
It's a bit like a shield. So watch out for that
because you'll notice people will put handbags.
They'll carry their laptops. That's a cross partial
barrier gesture or a coffee cup on the table,
like right in front. And it will be there. So
you're baselining and suddenly you're baselining
that. Oh, wait, that's not normal for them. This
is blowing my mind, Pooja, because I'm thinking
about situations where I know I've done those
things. Yeah. Adjusted my back to the front,
for example. You know, when it's like I'm feeling
like I need to. kind of get out of the situation
yes what are some others what you call them cross
cross parts so there's self -soothing and there's
like this uh the the half hug where you know
we tend to kind of protect our core i do do that
yeah it's like people who are walking who are
going into a networking event or walking onto
stage or getting some feedback you'll see that
they'll be standing like this um they're coming
they're body with kind of objects there's this
okay this right yeah this we need to talk about
because this is the most misunderstood gesture
now of course everyone thinks that this is like
being closed off like the minute i'm doing it
everyone just gets feels that energy is closed
off but the truth is this can also mean that
you're super engaged so this is where we come
to cue clusters so when your head is tilting
and your arms are here there's some research
to even say that you're right hemisphere of your
brain and your left hemisphere of your brain
are actually engaging with each other and connecting
the information oh i'm so relieved because i
do that yeah because if you and it's by the way
we don't know half the time when we're doing
these things so if you're like if you're this
is a q cluster three or more always look for
three or more so if you're sitting forward so
you're leaned in your head is tilted to the side
and your hand your um You've got your hands crossed
like this, so your arms crossed. That's a huge
cue that you're actually engaged. So this is
why Q clusters are so important because you cannot
just look at one body language in isolation.
I mean, I also do that. So my biceps look jacked.
If you see me like this in the gym, it's because
I need you to notice. That's a highly conscious
one. I think I'm going to remember that. So how
does all of this then work in? a remote situation?
Because obviously now, you know, a lot of people
do Zoom calls and we have a lot of remote meetings
as well. So how can we sort of either look out
for certain gestures or optimize it so that we're,
you know, being more welcoming? I think it's
easier in two dimensions, right? Like we should
have more control. Yeah. And, you know, because
we're lack of meeting people and we're doing
so many of these Zoom, I know all my clients
now and have now I've moved them. My one -on
-one sessions are on Zoom. So I'm missing that.
that face -to -face, because there's a different
type of energy that emits when you meet face
-to -face. So, you know, post -COVID, a lot of
these skills, that's why it's so important to
bring it out now at this stage. Because a lot
of us, firstly, don't know. And then secondly,
that, you know, it's not practiced enough. Well,
this is a great opportunity for us to bring a
question from our sponsors to you today. We are
sponsored by The Meat Club, and this segment
is called Fuel Your 40s. And they have a question
for you, which is when you are trying... to remain
focused stay in control be your best self what's
a protein focused meal that is your go -to for
situations like that amazing so i my my protein
go -to is boiled eggs i love it tell me why with
salt and pepper salt for the electrolytes and
pepper but um i'm a really big egg junkie because
it fills me up i don't feel you know um overly
full and also i just um i don't need to have
my carbs then i love it is there a power way
to eat an egg I like that. How do I powerfully
show my presence with an egg? Sometimes what
I do is if I get really sick of the boiled eggs
is I make a feta cheese and ham omelet. Sounds
amazing. Yeah, seriously. I want this. Guys,
that's three proteins in one, by the way, which
I already love. And it sounds delicious. And
I get so full with just that that I don't even
end up eating lunch. It's like an actual, that's
a real protein pack. But it's rare because it's
super filling. Yeah, I was just going to say.
Because I feel like a growling stomach is something
that we're hyper aware of. It's not exactly haptics
or optics, right? It's like audioics. But it's
like, I do feel like when people know you're
starving, that's another bad look for nonverbal
communication. It's like, why didn't this girl
eat? Because that's the environment. Because
then what will end up happening is, you know,
if you are hungry, your mind is not on what that
person is saying or what that person is doing.
You're thinking about, when am I going to go
and get her? Yeah, your foot's starting to tip
out the door. Yeah, your foot's starting to have
to work. Towards the door. Towards the door,
wherever the closest food is. Oh, well, thank
you for that. That's such a great tip and a great
idea. Now, nonverbal cues, we know that they
can be successful for us in establishing presence,
entering a room, establishing authority, rapport.
Can they also help us set boundaries? Yeah. And
the thing is, this is the beauty about being
a woman in your 40s. All these hormonal shifts
that happen with us, you know, our estrogen and
progesterone fluctuating, they shape our nonverbal
cues in such a way that they become intelligence
for us. I never would have thought that connected
hormones to your nonverbal cues. No, tell us
more. Okay, so it's amazing because when estrogen
and progesterone fluctuate, the nervous system
becomes a lot more sensitive. So, you know, and
that's why sometimes we look at perimenopause
and menopause as like these shifts in our body
language as flaws. They're not the physiological
data points for us. They are able to give us
information on our boundaries, whether we're
feeling emotionally safe, are the environments
we should be in, and also like whether we're
expending too much of our energy. So we need
to take it as almost like a universal intelligence
and like as a blessing. And for example, there's
there's been research to say that women that
are experiencing all these shifts in hormones
and they're as they get older, you know, the
40s are like the mid between between the 20s,
30s and then the 50s, the wise years, the wisdom
years. Right. And the 60s. Right. And that's
the time where you're actually getting to know
yourself better. You're able to pick up. Oh,
why was I? We have a certain tolerance window
for eye contact with most people. And sometimes
when your hormones are getting the better of
you, you don't have that tolerance anymore. And
we might find we're doing a lot more of the self
-pacifying, self -soothing gestures, a lot more.
And fatigue, fatigue overtakes us. Micro fatigue,
tension shows up in the jaw. Oh yeah, I suffer
from that quite a bit. So these are all signals
to us that actually rather than... looking at
them as flaws, the real -time data into what
boundaries we should be setting and, you know,
what's happening in our bodies. So that's something
that I find is actually quite powerful. And so
how do you set boundaries, okay? So without being
rude. Yeah, exactly. Without just throwing up
the, you know, the X. And there's some beautiful
ways that you can do this. And I use them all
the time. So there's... We talked about proximity
and distancing. You can actually take a step
back very subtly. So if you're standing with
someone, so body angling, including your feet,
of course, that's most important before your
torso, because that's where your feet, you know,
our limbic brain is hardwired to make the feet
move first. So feet angling slowly. I don't know
if you guys have noticed, but when you're in
a doctor's office, when he wants to break rapport
with you, what is the first thing he does when
he's about to end the interaction? I don't know
if I've noticed. Again, in a doctor's office
is where I work. So I'm trying to figure out
what does my husband do? Tell me. So if, you
know, a lot of doctors often have swively chairs.
Yes, he does. Yeah. So when they're about to
end an interaction, and by the way, of course,
this is all highly unconscious, they'll start
to actually shift their chair and their feet
will start pointing and their torso will start
pointing towards the door. It's a very polite
way of disengaging without like saying, listen,
we're done now. Yeah. Piss off. Yeah, exactly.
Right. I think I, now that you mentioned it,
because we work at We consult at the same table.
Yeah. I think I. like roll away because the chair's
on rollers. So I think I kind of push back from
the table, like, you know, kind of a, well, here
we are. So you're creating that distance. And
I get to do that now that I think about it. Exactly.
So what you're doing is you're sitting down,
but you're creating distance already. Absolutely.
So creating distance, body angling, leaning back.
So breaking that mirroring and matching. And
we talked about the still gestures as well is
a nice way of also kind of stepping back. The
minute you start. moving your hands down yeah
um then they know okay fine it's pretty much
done also bringing up your laptop or picking
up an object anything that distracts it and then
you look at your phone like oh you know it's
like breaking concentration breaking the breaking
point you take advantage of a breaking point
like suddenly a message goes off look at it and
then that just that that breaks that interaction
in a very nice way so take advantage of that
but definitely so the three things main things
is break the mirroring and matching if you are
marrying and matching the proximity, lean back
or take a step back, and the body angling, the
foot positioning. These are all very subtle nonverbal
cues. This is so great. Because there are times,
obviously we want to enter a group and engage
the group, but then there are times where we
want to get the F out of the group, but not look
like a jerk. So slowly start moving back, have
your feet start pointing towards the door, one
foot pointed towards them, one foot towards the
door. Check a message. Check a message, or just
pick up something and keep it in front. front
of you like so that you're signaling okay i'm
now ready to move on without being rude incredible
and believe me i do this a lot it because i've
been doing it for so long it's become very unconscious
yeah and when i teach my the participants in
the workshop this this skill they really feel
very empowered but i make them practice it during
our sessions because it's a whole full body movement
right it's a whole Practice. So again, even with
mirroring and matching, it's all practice. Yeah.
And it's all clusters, right? It's multiple things
at once. Multiple things at once. And sometimes
you just have to practice it to get that familiarity.
It can feel really awkward in the beginning to
do these things. So you practice it with close
friends, family, and then you move on to like
actual... Do it immediately. You know, especially
mirroring and matching. Mirroring is very almost
intrusive and some people can feel like you're
imitating them. Yeah, copy, yeah. My dad is Mr.
Accents. Oh, is he? My dad does accents, right?
So it's like he can't help but... mimic but it's
his way of establishing rapport but i'm like
dad you can't do it yeah but that's his way of
connecting yeah you know well gal we hate to
disengage but it is our time for our final questions
okay and it's a simple one yeah what is your
40s formula if you were giving women one or two
sentences to really help them thrive from your
area of expertise yeah what would you tell them
so there's a quote That's very well known. I
think you might have heard it, that if you listen
to your body when it whispers, you don't have
to hear it when it screams. And I really believe
that's my 40s formula because going back to this
whole topic of body language, it's about self
-attunement. It's about listening to your body
as a guide now, taking those cues as like universal
intelligence. Am I done with this relationship?
Do I need to move on? Is that environment suiting
me? I've been sitting there for so long, and
I've been putting up with that for so long. Am
I done? Listen to your cues. So take it as wisdom.
For example, recently, I noticed that I always
set my shower to a particular temperature, and
that's always how I've had it. And now I'm like,
wait, I'm not comfortable in this water anymore.
You know, it's about switching. And I'm using
that as a kind of metaphor for life. It's switching
that temperature back to your optimum point.
So we're so lucky, actually. And a lot of people
tend to look at menopause and perimenopause as
like flaws. They're physiological data points
for us to learn. our energy, our boundaries with
energy, our boundaries with people and our boundaries
for emotional safety and environment. Yes. So
self -attunement. Yeah. Tune in and listen. Tune
in and listen. So much being said. And it can
change, you know, like you said, it doesn't,
it's just because something's been one way your
whole life doesn't mean it has to stay that way.
Yes. Be open to the change that's required when
it's required. Yeah. And, you know, we're allowed
to change. There's this whole misconception that,
you know, we're, We have to be the same just
because we've been that way. We're allowed to
change our identity. And this is the stage you
do. This is the time. This is the time in your
40s. All right. Well, Pooja Kirpalani sounding
the call. Thank you so, so much, Gal. Thanks
for being with us today. You're most welcome.
It was really great to speak to you both and
exchange all those giggles as well. Thank you.
All right. I'm a shopping addict. Oh. Recovering
consumer. So this is why you have these in place.
Yes. Okay. Because it's like at least I can quell
the consumption a bit without contributing to
clothing waste, which I definitely am trying
not to. I think you're so good at it. I'm trying.
Thank you. I really have come a long way. You
can ask Sarah about my previous consumption habits.