Today's conversation is with a woman whose resume
reads like a straight shot to the top. Global
roles, boardrooms, billion -dollar crises navigated
with grace. But behind that polished LinkedIn
profile is a story most people never see. The
private costs of ambition, the unlearning that
comes along with leadership, and the weight of
being one of the few women and even fewer mothers
of three actually invited to the table. We talk
about what success really demands and whether
she'd pay that price again. We talk about raising
daughters while redefining enough. And we talk
about chronic pain and the surprising strength
that comes from finally asking for help. If you've
ever felt torn between drive and rest, motherhood
and ambition, visibility and vulnerability, this
is the episode you've been waiting for. If you
felt seen in this episode, please like, subscribe,
and share it with women in your circle who need
to hear it. Amy Kunirpanya is a global business
leader and tech optimist known for building teams,
shaping reputations, and steering some of the
world's most mission -driven companies through
hyper growth, transformation, and crisis. With
more than 25 years across Coca -Cola, Google,
Uber, and most recently as vice president of
communications at Netflix, She is recognized
as a trusted strategist with a deep love of cultural
nuance, an eye for innovation, and a knack for
solving complex problems with clarity and heart.
Beyond her corporate career, Amy is a passionate
advocate for women's health, anti -trafficking,
and vulnerable communities. She is a founding
member of Elevate, a board advisor to bio -wearable
startup M, and executive producer of the documentary
Sisterhood. a prolific mentor to women and girls
across Asia, and an angel investor championing
female founders. A mother of three and speaker
of eight Asian languages, she has lived and worked
in more than 75 countries, bringing a rare global
lens to every room she enters. The 40s Formula.
The 40s Formula. The 40s Formula, hosted by Jasmine
Dillon, integrated health strategist specializing
in gut health, hormones, and midlife well -being.
and amanda lim director of lift clinic and a
leading expert in female strength and metabolism
name one of cna's top podcasts and winner of
the 2025 asia podcast awards in the best health
and wellness podcast category the 40s formula
is your no fluff science meets real life guide
to thriving in your 40s Amy, welcome. Thank you
so much for making time for us today. It is such
a pleasure to be here. I'm so excited for this
conversation. We really are, too. I remember
the first time that I was actually in a room
with you, hearing you speak and your ability
to just completely enthrall an audience, including
myself. And I knew you, you know, and I knew
and I was like, wow, she has a presence. But
I think. You know, people see the big job after
big job and the Amy, you know, in front of them,
but they don't always see kind of the story behind
that. And that's really what we want to get into
today. What's something that someone wouldn't
see if they just clicked on your LinkedIn profile?
I think they wouldn't know that I've spent 30
years living with chronic pain. They may not
know that I'm a first and only with my family
when it comes to higher education. They might
not know that I was born in a tiny country town
and that I come from a really, really humble
background. Sometimes when they see the shiny
things, they assume that the path there was a
straight one, but it has been very non -linear
and I am better for it. You're exactly right.
I think the assumption would be, well, the only
way that she had all these big jobs and gotten
to all these high places is because she had a
really easy upbringing that got her, you know,
the first part of the way. And then she's just
had a linear track ever since. Yeah. What's been
the biggest bump in the road for you? I don't
know if I would say there's one thing, because
I think the truth about having big dreams, about
being driven, about... thinking that the sky
is the limit is that every time you push and
every time there is momentum in your life there's
always something you know that's true for motherhood
it's true for you know the professional journeys
that women are on so I guess I would say part
of it for me was understanding that you know
initially when I started working I think that
I really honestly believed that the path for
me to be successful and to get recognition was
to outperform everyone by outworking everyone.
It wasn't just a mentality of kind of prove it,
prove it, prove it again. It was also deliver
so much that is so great that you cannot be ignored.
But there's a price that comes with that and
it's a high one and I look at that and I think
now, especially as I mentor women who are earlier
in their career. You know, I would love people
to have had the ability to say no to things I
didn't know I could have at that time. And, you
know, one of the questions that I wanted to ask
you right later in this conversation, but I think
it works beautifully here, is what would you
tell 20 -year -old Amy? You know, you mentioned
what you're telling your mentees, but you specifically,
how do you mentor yourself? I think part of it
is, you know, this probably sounds a little bit
light, but that it's actually going to be okay.
There's a piece to it as well where I can't speak
to everyone but I think if you are truly driven,
if you have this insatiable fire in your belly
that gets you out of bed every day and kind of
demands of you that you ask yourself, am I doing
enough? Can I do more? What else can I do? Sometimes
you also have a tremendous sense of impatience
with yourself. You know, and you can set rather
arbitrary deadlines. You know, you need to reach
a certain title by a certain age. Maybe you have
to have reached a salary band by a certain point.
And so many of those things, like the pursuit
of that one thing, can actually get in the way
of something that is so much bigger and better
than you can imagine because you're focused on
the minutia and not the bigger picture. So you
mentioned that there were struggles along the
way. What would you say were some of the things
that you really struggled with to get to where
you are today? I think... Initially, I have almost
always been one of the youngest people in the
room and I definitely would say I have carried
in some of the earlier parts of my career, certainly
the first 15 years, probably a chip on my shoulder
about age and about being perceived or the theory
of being perceived as being less competent or
less excellent because I may have less years
of experience. And what I've learnt, you know,
and I say this with as much humility as I can,
but in my 20s I was too young for someone, in
my 30s I was too young for someone, in my 40s
I'm still too young for someone. And as I am
now getting closer to 50 than 40, I'm sure at
that point I'll still also be too young but also
too old for someone. You know, so the truth is
I think that some of these things that we carry
as baggage we are getting in our own way. So
not kind of letting age be a thing, I guess,
and doing the work and letting the work speak
was part of it. I think another piece of it was
finding my authentic voice and we can definitely
talk more about this because I don't think it's
a one -liner type of insight but when you are
growing up professionally, you're still finding
yourself and I think a lot of young women believe
that they're supposed to know. You know, they're
supposed to, you know, pick their path, for example,
if they go to university, then, you know, kind
of find that particular ladder that they're going
to climb, head down, get climbing and off you
go. And some of the people that I admire the
most in terms of their professional achievements
and who they represent to me as leaders in industry,
you know, kind of lighthouses, it's not a straight
line. They've taken, you know, interesting left
turns. You know, they've pivoted, they've paused
things, they've made choices that you wouldn't
have expected that they made. And those things
didn't stop them from being successful. They
actually, you know, kind of accelerated their
success. And giving yourself permission to understand
that the path isn't always something you can
control. It isn't, you know, beautiful steps
that are all outlined for you. Because I will
say to you, you know, in my 20s, I knew exactly
what I wanted to do. Oh, same. You know, I had
that path planned. You know, I knew the job descriptions
that I wanted. And a funny thing for me, I got
one of the jobs that I thought would be my dream
job. I started working at the beginning of my
career as a civil servant. I worked for the Department
of Foreign Affairs and Trade. And it was not
what I hoped it would be. And so the private
sector was never part of the plan for me. And
yet that pivot, someone seeing something in me
and saying, hey, you should try this, changed
the trajectory of my life. Another thing for
me, the opportunity to come to Asia for the first
time. And how that got not just under my skin,
but deep, deep in my bones and my heart also
changed the trajectory of my life. You know,
if I had never gotten on a plane, if I hadn't
said yes to an opportunity, even when I wasn't
quite sure, this amazing story that has unfolded
would never have even started. Yeah. Can we take
a sidebar and talk about Asia for a second? I
need two things clarified. Amy and I have known
each other for some time, but I don't know the
answer to these two questions. I need to know.
how you came to speak all the languages that
you speak, and I need to know the origins of
meeting your husband. Okay. These are fun. These
are fun questions, and I need to know both. So
in a lot of ways, the focus on Asian languages
for me, I'm very much the product or the byproduct
of the foreign policy of my government at the
time when I was in schooling. So we had a former
prime minister that had a foreign policy that
was called Asian engagement. And it was very
much before its time. But his belief was that
Australia needed to embrace its geographical
reality and use that as a competitive advantage
rather than see itself as kind of like the last
bastion outpost of Europe and think of its primary
partners as being in Europe and or the US. And
so what he was trying to do is really embed an
Asian IQ slash EQ into... the learning experience,
both, you know, from the youngest years all through.
And then that led to a lot of programs like the
one that I did my university degree with that
allowed me to kind of go in and have immersive
experiences in Asia. So, you know, I learned
to count as a child in primary school. The first
languages were in English and in Bahasa. Wow.
You know, when I had a choice to choose an elective
language, you know, the school that I was at,
the choices were Japanese and Korean, not French,
Italian and Spanish. So that was a fundamental
shift from what, say, my parents' generation
would have been exposed to as what was kind of
normal in an offering. And interestingly for
my high school in terms of Japanese. they were
also practising what's called immersive language
labs, which means when you go into the building,
you are only allowed to communicate in the language
that you are there for instruction of. So if
you needed to go to the bathroom and you didn't
know how to say that, you were in trouble, so
you learnt very quickly. Outside of kind of formal
schooling, though, I also had the opportunity,
and I think it really is a privilege, I received
scholarships to go overseas and get deep into
places. So I spent a year living in a rural town,
which is very close to my heart, in Thailand.
And it was on the border of Cambodia and Laos.
And there was a very large Khmer refugee community
there. And while I was there, I learnt Thai,
Laos and Khmer, which is the Cambodian language.
Interestingly, when I came home, I thought, oh,
you know, that was really interesting. I'd like
to see if I could make some use of this. Maybe
I'll find out if there's a university that offers
this language. And I found that most universities
weren't interested in these languages. They weren't
considered to have a large enough population
to be kind of, you know, a major or a majority
study. But when I went in and asked if I could
be assessed for my Thai skills, what I found
out is I actually had a level of fluency both
in writing and speaking that was the equivalent
of having done the degree already. And that's
when I realised actually what had felt easy and
intuitive to me was actually not so normal. But
to be honest, prior to that, I thought it was
just about putting in the time and working and
having a love for the thing that I was learning.
And I came away from that realising actually
this is something I do well and potentially do
better than other people and I just leaned in.
So I went from... that Thailand and that kind
of, you know, Southeast Asian, Indochina experience.
When I then went to university, I decided to
structure my degree across Asian countries. So
I started in Australia. I then went to Japan.
I then went to mainland China and I finished
in Thailand. And then from there, you know, I've
had some amazing opportunities with work, but
almost all of my roles have given me the opportunity
to be working in multiple languages every day.
And that's the key to not forgetting them because
you have to use them. And so the story for how
I met my husband, the wonderful man that he is,
is I went to a jazz festival with a girlfriend
and she said to me as we walked into this space,
I feel it in my bones that you're going to be
lucky so you need to put your name card into
the lucky door prize. And believe it or not,
at midnight they pulled out my name card and
I went onto the stage and I, you know, accepted
a bottle of Johnny Walker Blues. It was rather
special. Very classy. But when I, you know, and
they asked me in Thai, are you having a good
time? And I responded, you know, it's amazing.
The music is so fantastic. I walked off the stage
and I met my husband. Wow. And so we had this
wonderful conversation. He asked me for my number.
He called me the next day and we've been together
ever since. Wow. Yeah, 25 years and counting.
Oh, wow. I was just about to ask Callum. Oh,
wow. Yeah, when I see their wedding pictures,
I was like, oh, they were children. These kids
have been together a while. Oh, that is a beautiful
story. So Johnny Walker versus saying, you know,
what was the bigger prize that night? Totally
saying. Okay, all right. That's for you saying.
That's verified. So you've worked across all
these countries, learned all these amazing languages.
What have you needed to unlearn? from you know
either your earlier roles or just from your earlier
past experience I think when you are early in
your career particularly if you come straight
out of university and you start working When
you are a student, so much of it is about individual
recognition. You write the paper and it has your
name on it. And then you get into a workplace
and you realise that very often the product doesn't
say buy someone. You just have to ship it and
have to trust that people will know. I think
there's a truth that you can obviously always
advocate for yourself. You can champion your
work. You can find champions of your work. But
interestingly for me, when I think about leadership
as opposed to just individual contribution, I
worked in organisations at a time when there
were very few women in leadership. So I didn't,
again, that concept of kind of growing up in
the corporate space, I didn't really grow up
observing women lead. I grew up with male bosses
and male leaders and a particular type of leadership
that was more common than not. And so one thing
I had to unlearn was the idea that the loudest
voice in the room is the leader. You know, another
thing for me that has been, I will say, a good
but a hard lesson when I continue to learn. I
do love to talk, but listening is one of the
most important skills of a leader. Being able
to listen deeply and actively and continuously.
I think understanding that a leader isn't always
front and centre, although sometimes you have
to be, but you also have to walk alongside people.
And I found for myself, you know, the people
that I think are the most spectacular leaders,
the most creative, the most resilient, the most
successful, the most centred and grounded, they're
not showing people their superpowers. They're
helping other people find their own superpowers.
And so there's something about leadership that
is about unlocking something in someone else,
not just about what you showcase in yourself.
I was actually going to say, because your voice
is very calm and it's very gentle. And, you know,
the fact that you just said that you don't need
to be the loudest person in the room, but yet
you can still get this amazing connection with
people. I feel it. Although I do tend to be the
loudest person in the room. There's no shade
on the loudest person, to be clear. I cannot
help myself. Sorry, guys. So you mentioned that
when you were, you know, as a younger professional,
you didn't have a lot to look up to. You didn't
see a lot of women in roles that you wanted or
that you were aspiring toward. But your daughters
do get to see that. They don't just get to see
it, you know, tangentially in the working world.
They get to see it in their house with you. What
do you want your daughters to learn from your
example as a working mom? So the first thing
I would caveat is I want my daughters and my
son to learn this, but I totally hear the point.
I think the first thing is I want them to know
that I was fearless in my pursuit of excellence.
I want them to know that I said yes to the adventure,
even when I wasn't feeling ready or knowing for
sure, that I went into every room and every relationship
with empathy. You know, equal parts head and
heart, and that matters. And that everything
that I did, I did it for them, but also that
I couldn't do it without them and that, you know,
that's part of what has given me this drive and
what has made me this person. How old are your
children? My young, well, the short answer is
five, three and one. But you know, with children,
we get into months and we're kind of approaching
birthdays. You can always remember hers and mine
are the same. Amanda and I not only know each
other, we've literally been on pregnancy journeys
in parallel. It's been quite an amazing thing.
So recently, my husband and I started watching
this program on Amazon and it's called Special
Ops Lioness. Has anyone seen it? Heard of it?
Yeah. Okay. It's about... CIA agent she is a
female she's very high level I don't want to
you know kill off what the story is about but
she has a family so she's married she's got two
daughters and her relationship with her eldest
daughter is not great because obviously she's
been she's a field agent so she's been out of
the home environment And then the husband's also
working and he's also busy because he's a surgeon.
So he's not really around. I mean, he's trying
to be around, but he's not around as much as
he can be. And it's really made their situation
difficult. You know, like the relationship between
the mother and daughter. Is there something you
worry about being in such a high powered position
and about the time that you can give to your
kids and how it would affect them? Because obviously
they're quite little now, but obviously as they
get older, that's such a, you know, it's a big
thing. And it's something that's been playing
on my mind as well. Like, I need to spend time
with my children because they do need me. And,
you know, everything that I'm doing, I say I'm
doing it for them. But is it really for them?
You know, I don't know. It's a great question.
And look, I think, you know, someone once said
this to me, that every mother's middle name is
guilt. And I think that there is a truth to that.
So what I would say to you is I have learnt,
you know, through hard lessons myself, but...
I think that the best gift that you can give
them is your undivided attention, no matter how
much the time is. Because especially when they're
little, and obviously this changes as they get
older, but children don't necessarily have the
same sense of time that we do. My children are
now starting to learn to read the clock, so I
have to be more mindful of that. But I say this
because if you're in the room with them, but
you're not in the room with them, it's like you're
not in the room at all. And, you know, what I
realise is this idea of like looking up from
your device saying, I'm just going to finish
this while you do that thing. They just want
you. Yeah. You know, they just want to know that
you are in it, whatever it is with them. And
I think to myself right now they're very small
so they need me in quite a physical way that's
going to change as they get older. But I also
think about my experience of being a teenager,
of the teenagers that I have kind of taken under
my wing for different reasons, sometimes because
they've had real problems in their life and other
times because they've just been people that reminded
me of me and I really wanted to kind of see can
I do anything to accelerate or amplify their
opportunities. So much of it is about access.
It's about... being able to open yourself up.
And I think one thing that I'm trying to do more
of, and it's not an easy intuitive thing for
me, but the point about vulnerability and about
letting them see you, all of you. You know, I
think a lot of what I saw modelled as motherhood
from working women was often that they were invisible
parents. Not that they have to have every conversation
led by a story about their children, but it was
kind of an inconvenience that was on the side
and kind of either not talked about or kind of
not really acknowledged. And I think that...
for my children to get everything that they deserve
from me I have to make choices every day about
when I am fully present for work and when I'm
fully present for them and in some ways it has
to be somewhat non -negotiable so I say this
as an example I had an amazing c -suite executive
who had three children while she was in the c
-suite and she said to me you know if nothing
else What I have taught the CEO of the company
is that between five and seven, I'm unavailable
because that's bath time and bedtime. And I thought
to myself, maybe you have to be a C -suite executive
to be able to draw those lines. But as I have
experienced different roles in different organisations,
I realised that setting a boundary is an act
of self -love, but enforcing the boundary is
an act of self -respect. And so when you really
lean into that, you realize that every day you
make choices and you always have a choice about
how you allocate your time and your energy, especially
when it comes to your kids. Good. I love that.
I love that. And I love the language you used
about teaching the CEO what a boundary looks
like. I didn't ask for it. I didn't beg for it.
I didn't freak out about it. I said it and I
taught someone a lesson. And I think that is
a very powerful use of language. So we have our
beautiful sponsors here on the 40s Formula, the
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know. I'm very, lots of pepper, you know, the
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of just sing. Is that the Australia in you? I'm
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So you are just representing your nation, my
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order if you use code TFF20 today. So talk to
us a little bit about that balancing ambition,
right? Because it seems like such a kind of canned
question, right? How do you balance being a mom
and work? But I think women need to hear about
specific strategies, the one you just mentioned,
right? Teaching a boundary or setting a line.
What are some of the specific strategies that
you have used in balancing your motherhood with
your role in the workplace? So the first thing
that I would say, I don't think this is controversial,
but I also don't think perhaps... A lot of women
give themselves permission to say this out loud.
I no longer believe in work -life balance. I
was just thinking that. I was thinking, is there
really a balance? So I think the concept of balance
is both triggering and somewhat a false equivalency
because I think the problem that happens when
we come back to the idea whether you are a working
mother or just a working woman, the idea of balance
I think... creates a situation where you always
feel like you are failing. Yeah. Because there's
no world where you kind of, you know, you reach
the top of the mountain and then you have arrived,
balance is yours, you know, and you hold your
breath and you enjoy that moment. The truth is
that every single day, every decision you make
tips you one way or the other, a little bit more
in favour of home or personal requirements and
a little bit more in favour of work. There are
days when I feel like I am... kicking ass at
my job and that's not normally the same day that
I feel like I'm being the best mother I can be
you know there are other days for example where
I feel like I've really allowed myself to come
home with something to give to my husband that
I'm not completely depleted and then there are
other days where you know I'm really operating
on zero and I'm like thank you babe for taking
care of the kids you know for this particular
thing that I would normally do so it's not It's
not, I think, again, it's not a linear thing,
but if I think about specific strategies, I think
the first one of them is understanding, like
really honestly for yourself, what matters to
you. So as an example, one of the things that
I feel really strongly about, because it's such
an important part of who I am, is I love reading.
I love voraciously everything in any language.
Like, I just love it, right? Love listening to
podcasts. Shout out the 40s formula. But I, you
know, I love being able to immerse myself in
different worlds. I love, you know, the learning
that comes from reading facts, you know, all
of this stuff. And so I want to raise readers.
And so for me, for example, that means time that
is spent reading with my children is precious.
Because if I don't invest in that, you know,
it's not just about a development milestone.
It's about how can I embed something in them?
That stays with them forever, no matter what
room they're in, how they evolve as adults. So
carving out time to do that matters to me, for
example. When I'm on the road, and obviously
it's different for everybody, I'm really mindful,
especially because my children are very young.
My husband is the primary caregiver of our children.
He made the sacrifice so that I could continue
to do what I do and that our children could be
raised by a parent, which is amazing. And having
their dad be that person is such a special gift
and not so common. So it's a really unique situation
for us. And I find that as an example, for me,
because I have travelled so extensively for my
job, and Amanda knows this firsthand, but I would
say probably the last 10... potentially even
the last 15 years, my average kind of work travel
schedule was between 70 % and 90 % of the time
on the road. Wow. You know, it's an average of
somewhere almost touching or over 300 days a
year. And when you have very small children,
that means that you are away a lot. So for me,
one thing that I did that helped me deal with
some of the guilt, rightly or wrongly, is I made
the decision that I would continue to pump so
that I could give my children what I deemed to
be the best that I had to offer, even though
I wasn't with them. And with that comes a sacrifice
in time. It comes learning about the logistics
of how to, you know, ship and store. It comes
with keeping your body in a shape that actually
you can make that contribution and it's meaningful.
So I don't think it's so much just about, you
know, I color code my calendar, you know, I carve
out this time. I know there are people who believe,
for example, in the boundary is, you know, setting
sacred spaces in your calendar or telling people
certain things are off limits. But the thing
that I would say is what you do is so much more
important than what you say. In particular, I
say this very, very sincerely. I waited a very
long time to have children for reasons that we
may talk about later, but a big part of me believed
that if I had them at an earlier point in my
career, that that would be the end of my growth
because that's what I had observed. It doesn't
make it true. It just means that that was the
experience I was exposed to. What I want people
to know that if they want to have a family and
if they don't, more power to them so there's
no judgment in this statement. But if this is
something that they want, there's never a right
time. There's never a perfect time. There's never
a lull in the busyness of one's life or one's
job. So if you want things, you alone have to
make the decision about what it is that matters
and then you have to carve out space because,
you know, these are choices that we all get to
make. And if you don't do that, someone else
will take that time, you know. And I mean, you
hit it on the head about, you know, you want
to raise readers. You set aside time to read
with your children. Yeah. You know, obviously
in our house, health and fitness is a huge part
of how we raise our kids. And so I am with my
kids in the pool at swimming lessons and I am
with my kids on the floor at gymnastics. You
know, I'm not sitting in a room somewhere taking
a call. on the floor with them doing a cartwheel
or doing whatever, that is extremely important
to me. It takes up a huge amount of time. It
would be so much easier for those of us here
in Singapore to send my helper with the kids
over to the class. But no, I need to be there
with them because I need that modeling to start
in the home with us. But like you said, you must
then carve that time out of where it would go
otherwise. And we're constantly making those
tradeoffs. And the one additional build that
I would say, and obviously I'm very fortunate
to be in an incredibly supportive relationship.
in the form of my husband's commitment to raising
our children together. But who you have as a
partner, a true partner in that process, makes
all the difference. So having someone who you
can tag team with, who you can say, I've got
this, you go do that, and or the trades that
you can make with each other because you are
both in it deeply and committed to how it should
be experienced by your kids. So Amanda, you know
how I've been on this journey about improving
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lately. Well, I have found something that has
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It's a total game changer and so relaxing for
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TFF today. Obviously, you are making sacrifices.
What sort of things have you had to sacrifice
in order to have the career that you want and
obviously spend that time with your family? So,
you know, is there something particular that
you would otherwise love to do, but you've had
to say no to? I'll try and not make this frivolous.
There's a finite number of hours in the day.
So I think that's obviously one part of it. You
know, confessions on a podcast. I am not a big
sleeper, which is not necessarily a point of
pride. But, you know, one of the things that
obviously I made choices about very early in
my career in terms of this idea of really putting
in the time and the work was, you know, burning
the candle at both ends. probably the most I
would say like the biggest sacrifices for me
before I had children were things that actually
had long -term health implications and not understanding
that the sacrifices I was making the choices
I was making that I actually I didn't have to
make those I didn't have to give those things
up um you know I I wish someone had said to me
it's okay to say no to that you know you don't
have to literally stay in the office 24 hours
you know sleep under your desk like that kind
of situation and that's not to suggest that that
you know like I I love I love the hustle when
things are intense and they're moving fast and,
you know, you're in it and you're in the trenches
with people. But I also think that everybody
does need to be able to breathe, you know. Simple
things for me, you know, it's funny when people
ask me some advice around leadership, one of
the first things that I say to them, my absolute,
like, non -negotiable is hydration. Yes, you're
so good at it. And honestly, like, it's funny
because people look at you like... I'm sorry,
was that your big epiphany? I better have some
water. And people know I carry a very large bottle.
But, you know, the brain is a very large percentage
made up of water. And when you are dehydrated,
the first thing that goes is your mental acuity,
that clarity, that sharpness of thought. So if
you are go, go, go, if you are the person that
the buck stops with you, you have to make the
decision, you have to carry the thing. You have
to drink water. You know, it's crazy, but like,
there you go. And I love it. No, and again, you
are really a model of drinking water, by the
way, as someone who sees your water log. It's
very, very impressive. You mentioned how kind
of the conventional script for moms in corporate,
right, was to just kind of sweep the kids under
the rug, not sweep them under the rug, but not
bring it up, right? It's this thing that exists
outside of work in the capsule that is not to
do with work. I would say that this is also where...
your health has been siloed out to when you are
a high performing, high functioning, public facing
corporate female. Yeah. But you are someone who
doesn't do that. You are someone who is actually
quite forthcoming about some of your health struggles.
And I think probably one that you and I have
talked about quite a bit is your current struggle
with endometriosis. Yeah. Are you willing to
open up a little bit about how that journey has
unfolded over the past year, year and a half?
Sure. So I think maybe the starting point I would
say is for me, certainly in a professional setting,
vulnerability is not a default. It's actually
something that I've had to learn both to do and
to get comfortable and more comfortable with.
I definitely saw kind of the path to success,
as I said, kind of defined in a certain way,
but also that as a female, even at the earlier
stages of my career, that... In a lot of ways
kind of holding things back was a little bit
like having protective armour and so not saying
everything, not sharing everything, not bringing
people into some of my experiences or challenges
was a way in theory to not distract them and
have them focus on the thing which was the work
product as opposed to whatever's going on with
the person. I do not recommend that to other
people but that is part of the truth of what
I have done. I think that there's just a truth
that when you live with chronic pain it changes
you. And I think for me, because my path to a
diagnosis with endometriosis, so I have stage
four invasive endo, which is quite severe. And
it took, you know, almost 30 years for me to
get my diagnosis. Oh, my God. And a lot of that,
you know, when I think about kind of some of
the reasons why I was masking my pain symptoms
and or, you know, pushing through, you know,
moving on compartmentalizing that particular
component of my life. is because I really sincerely
thought that if people knew that I was in constant
pain, they would think I was weak and that therefore
I was not leadership material. So how did you
get through just the day -to -day? Like, how
did you do it? Because stage four, that must
have been... Oh, God. It's a debilitating level
of pain that happens cyclically all the time.
Yeah. So people that have endometriosis that
are in stage four invasive generally... would
say that they are in a 7 out of 10 pain scale
all the time. Fucking hell. And I think that
one of the things for me is living with pain
for an extended period of time and seeking advice
from medical professionals only to be met with
versions of that's normal, that's what it's like
being a woman. You know, everyone has that. You
just need to toughen up. That sounds like it's
probably more in your head than it is in your
body. You know, these are real statements by
medical professionals and irrespective, you know,
this is not to throw shade on the profession,
but there's so much that's not understood about
this disease. And, you know, the average person
takes seven to ten years to get a diagnosis because
it takes them that long to be believed. That's
just terrible. It's terrible, but it's also,
it's not... what we should settle for. And so
I think the short answer of how do you do it
is you just do it. You know, I don't have a,
you know, you just show up every day and you
do the best that you can. And for me sometimes
that means, you know, the day is marked into
very small moments as opposed to kind of, you
know, large swaths of time because getting through
those things requires different kinds of coping
strategies. So were you always on like painkillers
or? No. So interestingly, I, you know, I always
felt that that would be the wrong path for me.
Again, maybe some of that kind of in my own head
about this concept of strength and weakness,
but also, you know, particularly as I became
a mother, there are a lot of things that you
can't do, both when you are pregnant, but also
when you're breastfeeding. And so that never
felt like it was a... long -term strategy for
me. I always felt like I had to find other things.
So one of the things I'm so grateful for in my
working relationship with Amanda is we share
a mantra that movement is medicine. And that
might sound counterintuitive, but for me, moving
my body has actually been one of the saving graces
of dealing with pain. I think that for me, one
of the reasons why I found that I had this disease
was because I desperately wanted to have children.
But The funny thing for me or the ironic thing
is that it took a fertility, you know, kind of
experience as opposed to just a general health,
women's health or reproductive health conversation
to unearth this. And so it wasn't until I was,
you know, at a place where we had kind of given
up hope that we were going to be able to be parents
that this diagnosis changed that for us. But
the challenge is that endometriosis is actually...
You know, it's a very clever and somewhat insidious
disease because there are ways that the symptoms
can be abated, they can be, you know, kind of
lessened, but they never go away. And so, you
know, I've had periods of no pain when I was
pregnant, when I was breastfeeding with my children,
but I am, you know, not pain -free and I would
love to have that be my truth and it's just not.
So, you know, I don't say this to be very clear
because I want anyone to give me sympathy, but...
One of the big things for me is realising that
people deal with so much below the surface that
you never know about and it costs you nothing
to be kind. And I think about some of the ways
that people have and haven't shown up for me,
many of whom did not know this was going on in
the background, but there are basic things that
I think we can always extend to each other. So
my journey, I think, has been both coming to
a place where I trust myself. I decide to listen
to my body rather than to ignore it. And also
that I take agency over the experience that I
have when people dismiss me. In some ways, the
more I have learned about endometriosis, the
more I have felt the confidence to challenge,
to ask questions, to seek alternatives. And I
think that's a really hard thing for a lot of
women to do. Particularly when you're dealing
with expertise that is presented with complete
absolution. These are the solutions and or this
is not a problem. Take it or leave it. Yeah.
request my invitation to any woman, listen to
your body. You know, if it is giving you a message,
it means something. And generally it whispers
first and then it shouts. And you don't have
to wait until it's shouting before you take it
seriously. But so many of us do because we don't
put ourselves and our own health first. Can we
have a feminist moment about this? Yes. Hoorah.
You said you had 30 years before you got a diagnosis.
Yeah. But isn't it interesting? that you got
that diagnosis validated when you began your
fertility journey. Because that is when a woman
gets to have worth. Oh, you want to have a baby?
You're going to fulfill your reproductive potential?
Well, now we can take you seriously. Up until
then, though, your pain didn't matter. It's going
to matter in this short window while you're having
babies or needing to. And then once you're through
that period, your pain will again go back under
the radar because menopause ain't nobody care.
So I just think, like I said, the feminist message
there is like you didn't even get to be taken
seriously until fertility was in the equation.
Then everybody wakes up. And I think part of
what is so frustrating about that is my story
is actually not uncommon. The period of time
that it took for my diagnosis may be slightly
longer than other people, but when we say it
takes seven to ten years and we say one in seven
women around the world have this disease, that's
just of the people we know. See, you think about
the fact that so many women sit on a life in
pain with the assumption that this is their lot
in life and also that we are strong, we are resilient,
our bodies are built to tolerate a lot more by
default of being capable of childbirth. And because
of that... We put this off. We don't listen to
ourselves. We kind of quiet that. And we think
that actually this is acceptable. But I think
about, you know, some of the language that I
have heard from really wonderful advocates that
have talked more about how they have progressed
in their endometriosis journey. Being able to
say to a medical professional, this is impacting
my quality of life, is not a dismissible statement.
I am in pain can often be seen as a subjective
comment. But, you know, there are ways that you
can equip yourself. And I think this is part
of where for me, in a lot of ways, the more you
learn, the more you can't but want to be more
active and advocate for this space and for other
women who might not be where they need to be
in their journey. I guess even from an insurance
perspective, you know, if it's not affecting
your quality of life, then it's not going to
get covered. But, you know, if it's stopping
you from doing something. Having a baby. Yeah.
then then it gets noticed yeah and i think you
mentioned that there were periods of no pain
because there were periods of no periods yes
right i mean this is the only reason that you
were freed from this pain is because you were
having babies and breastfeeding yeah and again
that also sets up a really unfair storyline where
it's like well as long as you stay in the constant
reproductive cycle which again we were lucky
to have been able to do that you know three babies
in five years yeah um as long as you stay there
though then you get spared the pain and when
it comes back Because again, it will come back
monthly with your cycle and often in between.
Then now it's something that you just kind of
have to grit and bear it. No, absolutely not.
Were you on the contraceptive pill during...
It's a great question, so no. And I think this
is actually one of the things that's really interesting
when you think about women's understanding of
their bodies and of the implications of the choices
that we make or that other people make for us.
So I... I got my period very early. I was an
early bloomer perhaps and I knew immediately
when I got it that I was in a lot of pain. A
lot of women, girls, when they first have that
experience, if they are fortunate to have a parent
or a caregiver who takes them for advice from
a medical professional, very often the first
point of intervention is that they are offered
some form of birth control. to deal with the
symptoms. Because to be very clear, birth control
is a hormonal suppressant. And if, for example,
you have endometriosis, estrogen, which your
body desperately needs, is actually the problem.
estrogen is the thing that feeds endometriosis
and causes it to flare and so the more estrogen
your body has and in those early years in particular
you have a wonderful supply because it's building
your you know your bone density it's building
your muscle mass it's building you know kind
of your mental acuity and clarity there are so
many things that are wonderful that it does for
your body but for my body it's working against
me so the suppression of estrogen in theory stops
the symptom but what we don't talk about is if
you are you know a teenager and you get on birth
control and then you're on it for five years,
10 years, 15 years before you decide perhaps
that you want to get off it, whether it's for
reproduction or otherwise, you have done something
to your body that you don't always fully understand
the implications of, meaning that the baseline
of how your body experiences menstruation may
be altered forever. Yeah. It's funny you say
that because actually I... was put on um birth
control pill when I was 14 because I had crazy
ridiculously long like three months long heavy
bleeding yeah non -stop and they were like oh
okay well just you know we've tried a few things
didn't work we'll get you on this this will help
and of course it helped you know it basically
controlled my period it made me have regular
periods obviously not real periods yeah but ever
since that I was on it for a long time And then
I think it was when I came to Singapore, I decided
to come off. And then that's when I realized
that my periods are not normal. They're not regular.
And ever since then, I've just had issue after
issue. Now, obviously, it wasn't the pill itself.
There's obviously, you know, loads of different
factors that played into it to the point where
I started hitting perimenopause at 37. And like
you said, it wasn't the pill itself, but it was
the pill itself that blinded you from the ability
to have this data about your functioning body,
which is your menstrual cycle. And the point
is we're not demonizing the pill. I think birth
control is an amazing, amazing tool for women
to have choice and agency. But I think the thing
that I would say when we're talking about kind
of injecting a wee bit of feminist energy, you
know, it's 2025 and there are no universally
accepted medical metrics for menstruation. Yeah.
They don't exist. They don't. So there is no
version of what is normal. Now, I think what
is normal is the wrong question. I think the
question should be what is right in your body
and if it doesn't feel right, how do you get
to that place, right? So part of this for me
is this amazing opportunity to say, okay, we
don't know enough. You know, women's health and
in particular menstrual health and reproductive
health are one of the least funded and least
researched. You know, it's sad to say this out
loud. We only started doing research with menstrual
blood in 2023. What? Two years ago? And the thing
that's amazing about that is that even in that
very short amount of time, what we've already
been able to learn about what a rich source of
biodata menstrual blood is, that, for example,
it contains stem cells that are unlike the presence
of stem cells anywhere else in the body. Wow.
And you think about the fact that every month
your body is effectively shedding a part of itself
and rebuilding it every single month. So it has
regenerative qualities that we have no idea how
they could be applied to other parts of our body,
to other diseases. I mean, we are at the absolute
beginning of understanding the potential of this.
My mind is blown right now. Wow. Yeah, it's incredible.
Yeah. And again, just because we haven't had
a way to study this or we haven't had investment
to be able to study this, this access to information
doesn't exist. And that is a problem. And so,
you know, I look at this and I think, one, what
an amazing opportunity for us to try and establish
a baseline because every woman in the world,
everyone who menstruates could benefit from at
least understanding what's going on in my own
body. And if you have those kind of insights,
you have agency over what you choose to do next.
Does this feel normal? Does it feel right? Do
I need advice? Do I need an intervention? And
I think those are things that often only happen
when we are in our most extreme state of whatever
the issue potentially might be. Can we talk about
how no one prepares you for how your skin changes
in your 40s? Honestly, one day it's fine. The
next it's dull, dry and showing every single
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the show by using code TFF. Well, again, a lot
of information to digest there. We're going to
lighten it up a little bit. Yes, ma 'am. One
of our favorite segments here on the 40s Formula,
Hot or Hype. Okay. So we're going to present
you kind of some hot topics and, you know, we'll
say corporate world adjacent. You tell us if
you think it's hot, meaning yes, on it, about
it. Okay. Or it's hype. Okay. Nah, overblown
too much. Okay. And you can qualify. Okay. You
can qualify. So this isn't just a one word and
then we move on. All right. Girl boss culture.
Hype. Hype. Total hype. I think that the idea
that you have to boss in a certain way. Why is
it girls are not women? Why do we have to caveat
say that's a female doctor or a female leader?
At some point, I would like that to not be a
thing. And we got to do a lot of work before
we get to that place. Yes. Oh, I love it. Okay.
Morning wellness routines. Hype. Good. I feel
the same. Tell me why. Well, I'm a mother of
three very young kids. Who has time in the morning
for anything but getting them out the door dressed
and, you know. And who has routine in the morning?
I mean, like every morning in our house is a
different version of chaos. So the only thing
routine about it is that it's nuts. I mean, it
does get better because I feel. So for me, I
am going to say like morning is the only time
I can have a routine. And I like my routine,
maybe because I'm a morning person. Maybe, you
know. And obviously the boys are now self -sufficient.
I will go in there to wake them up, but they
can put their own clothes on. They'll brush their
own teeth. They'll wash their own bum. You know,
I don't have to worry. How many diapers? Zero.
I know, it's like you're living the dream. Yeah,
yeah. Tell me more about your magical unicorn
world. All right. Hot or hype? The four -day
work week. Hot. Oh, I like that. So I think that
there's a false equivalency with the idea, the
amount of time that you put into a thing. determines
the value of the output that you give to that
thing. I think that the work week was designed
many, many moons ago for a very specific target
set of professionals that may not necessarily
include this room and or people outside of it
that look and feel like us. So I think that the
idea of actually hyper -focused, laser -focused,
hyper -efficient, there's so many ways that you
can do this. And I say this as a perfect example
to other mothers of three. There was a time in
your life when you didn't have children and I
give this in the corporate context. I was asked
to do a presentation. I could labour over the
joy of that presentation, those slides. I could
perfect, you know, perfectly justified to the
right, you know, all the colours worked, you
know, I'm going to agonise over those words,
let's sleep on it, think about it again. It could
be a week's worth of work, a month's worth of
work before it was perfect and it was out the
door. And now oftentimes the request is you've
got an hour. Because that's all I've got between
pickup and, you know, something else. So one
of the things about motherhood is it forces you
to be incredibly focused. You become an efficiency
master because you have no choice. But my goodness,
if that skill was valued the way that it actually
shows up, more women who are working mothers
would be in more positions of authority. You're
absolutely correct. I was just listening to a
podcast and I'm terrible and I can't remember
the doctor's name, but a doctor and she was saying
what, you know, exactly what you're saying about
like, you know, agonizing over every last graphic
on your PowerPoint slider. She was saying that
she was invited as a panelist. And then when
she showed up to the event, they were like, oh,
it's actually a TED Talk format. And you're the
TED talk. Oh, I know. It was the obesity doctor,
right? Yes. Yes. God, I've forgotten her name
as well. God, we're terrible. That's always our
excuse. We'll put it in the show now. But yeah,
she was saying she was like, so I had literally
five minutes while the previous panel was finishing
up to put together a 15 minute TED talk. Of my
own accord. And she was like, you just got to
get it done. And I bet you should kick butt.
She did because it went viral. No, no, no. It
went viral. It went completely viral. So she's
the obesity doctor who said that obesity is genetic,
but it went viral for the wrong reason because
people were like, it's not. After her about it.
Yeah. You know, it's not genetic. But actually,
if you listen to the whole thing. It's incredible.
It's great. All right. Hotter hype. The motherhood
penalty. Hot. Sadly hot, isn't it? It is the
real deal. And I think even organisations that
have the very best of intentions and real policies
don't always understand that this exists and
shows up in ways that they can't necessarily
predict or protect working mums from. And to
some degree I categorise also working parents
because dads that make different choices also
have impact. But for mums it's a real thing.
Yeah, it is. Last one. Hot or hype? Women only
networking. So networks available to only women.
Hot. Yay. What about podcast films? Podcasts
that are only open to women. So I will say this,
you know, I'm very intentional with my time and
I love deeply supporting and uplifting women,
women and girls. It's something that I draw a
tremendous amount of joy from and I see as being
a gift that I can give. I think that when you
do women -only things, there's a power that comes
from that. There's a safety in a community. But
I also think that if you exclude men from every
conversation, they cannot be the true allies
and partners they need to be for us to make the
kind of progress, the lasting progress that we
actually need. That's the path to gender equality.
We're not going to get there if it's just women
solving the problem for women. You're absolutely
right. You need the investment from everyone
to solve these problems. Yeah. Well, Gal, we've
had a lot to think about today. And again, a
beautiful personal story from you. We thank you
for that. But we would love the benefit of your
expertise and the question that we ask everyone
on this show. What is your 40s formula? What
is the nugget, the golden nugget of advice you
can provide for our audience about how to thrive
in this decade? So I am going to borrow words
from my favorite poet. Mary Oliver has a piece
called Sometimes. And it goes, instructions to
live a life, pay attention, be astonished, and
tell about it. You have to pay attention to everything
but especially to yourself. Especially in your
40s as women, we are so accustomed to putting
everyone else and everything else first and it's
time that we give ourselves the space that we
deserve and the time that we need. Be astonished.
For me, one of the greatest lessons my children
have taught me is to see the world with wonder.
Yeah. And we lose that so quickly as we grow
up. How can I come into things with the same
lens that they have about all the possibilities
in front of me, not just all the problems? And
hold on to that for as long as I can so that
I can see, you know, that the world actually
can be a great place and I can have a contributive
role in that. And then tell about it. As women
in particular, so often we think that our story
is not going to be relevant or helpful or additive
or valuable to somebody else. But every time
you share... You share lived experience. You
share difficult things. You share beautiful things.
What you are teaching people intentionally, generously,
is that life is for living, but also that we
all get to be part of helping each other have
a better experience. Oh, my God. That is just
beautiful. And you're such an incredible storyteller.
Thank you for sharing the power of your story,
the authenticity of your experience, and just
being with us today, Amy. Thank you so, so much.
You're so welcome. Thank you. It was an amazing
conversation. Thank you. the day I'm just saying
I know what you get out of it