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Today's conversation is with a woman whose resume

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reads like a straight shot to the top. Global

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roles, boardrooms, billion -dollar crises navigated

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with grace. But behind that polished LinkedIn

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profile is a story most people never see. The

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private costs of ambition, the unlearning that

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comes along with leadership, and the weight of

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being one of the few women and even fewer mothers

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of three actually invited to the table. We talk

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about what success really demands and whether

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she'd pay that price again. We talk about raising

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daughters while redefining enough. And we talk

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about chronic pain and the surprising strength

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that comes from finally asking for help. If you've

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ever felt torn between drive and rest, motherhood

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and ambition, visibility and vulnerability, this

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is the episode you've been waiting for. If you

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felt seen in this episode, please like, subscribe,

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and share it with women in your circle who need

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to hear it. Amy Kunirpanya is a global business

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leader and tech optimist known for building teams,

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shaping reputations, and steering some of the

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world's most mission -driven companies through

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hyper growth, transformation, and crisis. With

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more than 25 years across Coca -Cola, Google,

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Uber, and most recently as vice president of

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communications at Netflix, She is recognized

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as a trusted strategist with a deep love of cultural

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nuance, an eye for innovation, and a knack for

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solving complex problems with clarity and heart.

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Beyond her corporate career, Amy is a passionate

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advocate for women's health, anti -trafficking,

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and vulnerable communities. She is a founding

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member of Elevate, a board advisor to bio -wearable

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startup M, and executive producer of the documentary

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Sisterhood. a prolific mentor to women and girls

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across Asia, and an angel investor championing

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female founders. A mother of three and speaker

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of eight Asian languages, she has lived and worked

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in more than 75 countries, bringing a rare global

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lens to every room she enters. The 40s Formula.

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The 40s Formula. The 40s Formula, hosted by Jasmine

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Dillon, integrated health strategist specializing

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in gut health, hormones, and midlife well -being.

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and amanda lim director of lift clinic and a

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leading expert in female strength and metabolism

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name one of cna's top podcasts and winner of

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the 2025 asia podcast awards in the best health

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and wellness podcast category the 40s formula

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is your no fluff science meets real life guide

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to thriving in your 40s Amy, welcome. Thank you

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so much for making time for us today. It is such

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a pleasure to be here. I'm so excited for this

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conversation. We really are, too. I remember

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the first time that I was actually in a room

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with you, hearing you speak and your ability

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to just completely enthrall an audience, including

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myself. And I knew you, you know, and I knew

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and I was like, wow, she has a presence. But

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I think. You know, people see the big job after

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big job and the Amy, you know, in front of them,

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but they don't always see kind of the story behind

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that. And that's really what we want to get into

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today. What's something that someone wouldn't

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see if they just clicked on your LinkedIn profile?

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I think they wouldn't know that I've spent 30

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years living with chronic pain. They may not

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know that I'm a first and only with my family

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when it comes to higher education. They might

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not know that I was born in a tiny country town

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and that I come from a really, really humble

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background. Sometimes when they see the shiny

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things, they assume that the path there was a

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straight one, but it has been very non -linear

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and I am better for it. You're exactly right.

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I think the assumption would be, well, the only

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way that she had all these big jobs and gotten

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to all these high places is because she had a

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really easy upbringing that got her, you know,

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the first part of the way. And then she's just

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had a linear track ever since. Yeah. What's been

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the biggest bump in the road for you? I don't

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know if I would say there's one thing, because

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I think the truth about having big dreams, about

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being driven, about... thinking that the sky

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is the limit is that every time you push and

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every time there is momentum in your life there's

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always something you know that's true for motherhood

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it's true for you know the professional journeys

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that women are on so I guess I would say part

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of it for me was understanding that you know

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initially when I started working I think that

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I really honestly believed that the path for

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me to be successful and to get recognition was

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to outperform everyone by outworking everyone.

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It wasn't just a mentality of kind of prove it,

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prove it, prove it again. It was also deliver

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so much that is so great that you cannot be ignored.

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But there's a price that comes with that and

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it's a high one and I look at that and I think

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now, especially as I mentor women who are earlier

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in their career. You know, I would love people

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to have had the ability to say no to things I

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didn't know I could have at that time. And, you

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know, one of the questions that I wanted to ask

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you right later in this conversation, but I think

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it works beautifully here, is what would you

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tell 20 -year -old Amy? You know, you mentioned

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what you're telling your mentees, but you specifically,

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how do you mentor yourself? I think part of it

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is, you know, this probably sounds a little bit

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light, but that it's actually going to be okay.

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There's a piece to it as well where I can't speak

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to everyone but I think if you are truly driven,

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if you have this insatiable fire in your belly

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that gets you out of bed every day and kind of

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demands of you that you ask yourself, am I doing

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enough? Can I do more? What else can I do? Sometimes

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you also have a tremendous sense of impatience

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with yourself. You know, and you can set rather

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arbitrary deadlines. You know, you need to reach

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a certain title by a certain age. Maybe you have

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to have reached a salary band by a certain point.

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And so many of those things, like the pursuit

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of that one thing, can actually get in the way

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of something that is so much bigger and better

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than you can imagine because you're focused on

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the minutia and not the bigger picture. So you

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mentioned that there were struggles along the

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way. What would you say were some of the things

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that you really struggled with to get to where

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you are today? I think... Initially, I have almost

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always been one of the youngest people in the

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room and I definitely would say I have carried

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in some of the earlier parts of my career, certainly

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the first 15 years, probably a chip on my shoulder

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about age and about being perceived or the theory

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of being perceived as being less competent or

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less excellent because I may have less years

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of experience. And what I've learnt, you know,

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and I say this with as much humility as I can,

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but in my 20s I was too young for someone, in

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my 30s I was too young for someone, in my 40s

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I'm still too young for someone. And as I am

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now getting closer to 50 than 40, I'm sure at

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that point I'll still also be too young but also

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too old for someone. You know, so the truth is

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I think that some of these things that we carry

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as baggage we are getting in our own way. So

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not kind of letting age be a thing, I guess,

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and doing the work and letting the work speak

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was part of it. I think another piece of it was

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finding my authentic voice and we can definitely

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talk more about this because I don't think it's

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a one -liner type of insight but when you are

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growing up professionally, you're still finding

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yourself and I think a lot of young women believe

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that they're supposed to know. You know, they're

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supposed to, you know, pick their path, for example,

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if they go to university, then, you know, kind

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of find that particular ladder that they're going

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to climb, head down, get climbing and off you

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go. And some of the people that I admire the

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most in terms of their professional achievements

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and who they represent to me as leaders in industry,

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you know, kind of lighthouses, it's not a straight

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line. They've taken, you know, interesting left

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turns. You know, they've pivoted, they've paused

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things, they've made choices that you wouldn't

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have expected that they made. And those things

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didn't stop them from being successful. They

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actually, you know, kind of accelerated their

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success. And giving yourself permission to understand

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that the path isn't always something you can

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control. It isn't, you know, beautiful steps

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that are all outlined for you. Because I will

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say to you, you know, in my 20s, I knew exactly

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what I wanted to do. Oh, same. You know, I had

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that path planned. You know, I knew the job descriptions

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that I wanted. And a funny thing for me, I got

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one of the jobs that I thought would be my dream

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job. I started working at the beginning of my

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career as a civil servant. I worked for the Department

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of Foreign Affairs and Trade. And it was not

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what I hoped it would be. And so the private

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sector was never part of the plan for me. And

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yet that pivot, someone seeing something in me

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and saying, hey, you should try this, changed

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the trajectory of my life. Another thing for

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me, the opportunity to come to Asia for the first

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time. And how that got not just under my skin,

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but deep, deep in my bones and my heart also

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changed the trajectory of my life. You know,

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if I had never gotten on a plane, if I hadn't

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said yes to an opportunity, even when I wasn't

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quite sure, this amazing story that has unfolded

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would never have even started. Yeah. Can we take

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a sidebar and talk about Asia for a second? I

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need two things clarified. Amy and I have known

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each other for some time, but I don't know the

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answer to these two questions. I need to know.

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how you came to speak all the languages that

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you speak, and I need to know the origins of

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meeting your husband. Okay. These are fun. These

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are fun questions, and I need to know both. So

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in a lot of ways, the focus on Asian languages

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for me, I'm very much the product or the byproduct

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of the foreign policy of my government at the

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time when I was in schooling. So we had a former

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prime minister that had a foreign policy that

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was called Asian engagement. And it was very

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much before its time. But his belief was that

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Australia needed to embrace its geographical

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reality and use that as a competitive advantage

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rather than see itself as kind of like the last

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bastion outpost of Europe and think of its primary

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partners as being in Europe and or the US. And

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so what he was trying to do is really embed an

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Asian IQ slash EQ into... the learning experience,

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both, you know, from the youngest years all through.

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And then that led to a lot of programs like the

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one that I did my university degree with that

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allowed me to kind of go in and have immersive

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experiences in Asia. So, you know, I learned

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to count as a child in primary school. The first

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languages were in English and in Bahasa. Wow.

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You know, when I had a choice to choose an elective

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language, you know, the school that I was at,

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the choices were Japanese and Korean, not French,

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Italian and Spanish. So that was a fundamental

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shift from what, say, my parents' generation

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would have been exposed to as what was kind of

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normal in an offering. And interestingly for

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my high school in terms of Japanese. they were

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also practising what's called immersive language

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labs, which means when you go into the building,

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you are only allowed to communicate in the language

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that you are there for instruction of. So if

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you needed to go to the bathroom and you didn't

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know how to say that, you were in trouble, so

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you learnt very quickly. Outside of kind of formal

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schooling, though, I also had the opportunity,

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and I think it really is a privilege, I received

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scholarships to go overseas and get deep into

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places. So I spent a year living in a rural town,

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which is very close to my heart, in Thailand.

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And it was on the border of Cambodia and Laos.

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And there was a very large Khmer refugee community

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there. And while I was there, I learnt Thai,

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Laos and Khmer, which is the Cambodian language.

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Interestingly, when I came home, I thought, oh,

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you know, that was really interesting. I'd like

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to see if I could make some use of this. Maybe

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I'll find out if there's a university that offers

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this language. And I found that most universities

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weren't interested in these languages. They weren't

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considered to have a large enough population

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to be kind of, you know, a major or a majority

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study. But when I went in and asked if I could

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be assessed for my Thai skills, what I found

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out is I actually had a level of fluency both

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in writing and speaking that was the equivalent

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of having done the degree already. And that's

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when I realised actually what had felt easy and

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intuitive to me was actually not so normal. But

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to be honest, prior to that, I thought it was

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just about putting in the time and working and

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having a love for the thing that I was learning.

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And I came away from that realising actually

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this is something I do well and potentially do

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better than other people and I just leaned in.

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So I went from... that Thailand and that kind

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of, you know, Southeast Asian, Indochina experience.

00:12:02.129 --> 00:12:04.409
When I then went to university, I decided to

00:12:04.409 --> 00:12:06.990
structure my degree across Asian countries. So

00:12:06.990 --> 00:12:09.070
I started in Australia. I then went to Japan.

00:12:09.250 --> 00:12:11.090
I then went to mainland China and I finished

00:12:11.090 --> 00:12:13.610
in Thailand. And then from there, you know, I've

00:12:13.610 --> 00:12:15.629
had some amazing opportunities with work, but

00:12:15.629 --> 00:12:18.490
almost all of my roles have given me the opportunity

00:12:18.490 --> 00:12:21.269
to be working in multiple languages every day.

00:12:21.389 --> 00:12:23.289
And that's the key to not forgetting them because

00:12:23.289 --> 00:12:26.570
you have to use them. And so the story for how

00:12:26.570 --> 00:12:29.190
I met my husband, the wonderful man that he is,

00:12:29.250 --> 00:12:31.669
is I went to a jazz festival with a girlfriend

00:12:31.669 --> 00:12:34.269
and she said to me as we walked into this space,

00:12:34.470 --> 00:12:36.389
I feel it in my bones that you're going to be

00:12:36.389 --> 00:12:38.090
lucky so you need to put your name card into

00:12:38.090 --> 00:12:40.250
the lucky door prize. And believe it or not,

00:12:40.250 --> 00:12:42.070
at midnight they pulled out my name card and

00:12:42.070 --> 00:12:43.909
I went onto the stage and I, you know, accepted

00:12:43.909 --> 00:12:45.509
a bottle of Johnny Walker Blues. It was rather

00:12:45.509 --> 00:12:49.029
special. Very classy. But when I, you know, and

00:12:49.029 --> 00:12:51.049
they asked me in Thai, are you having a good

00:12:51.049 --> 00:12:52.990
time? And I responded, you know, it's amazing.

00:12:53.129 --> 00:12:55.700
The music is so fantastic. I walked off the stage

00:12:55.700 --> 00:12:59.080
and I met my husband. Wow. And so we had this

00:12:59.080 --> 00:13:01.059
wonderful conversation. He asked me for my number.

00:13:01.080 --> 00:13:02.580
He called me the next day and we've been together

00:13:02.580 --> 00:13:05.129
ever since. Wow. Yeah, 25 years and counting.

00:13:05.370 --> 00:13:07.549
Oh, wow. I was just about to ask Callum. Oh,

00:13:07.549 --> 00:13:10.049
wow. Yeah, when I see their wedding pictures,

00:13:10.090 --> 00:13:13.250
I was like, oh, they were children. These kids

00:13:13.250 --> 00:13:15.850
have been together a while. Oh, that is a beautiful

00:13:15.850 --> 00:13:19.669
story. So Johnny Walker versus saying, you know,

00:13:19.669 --> 00:13:21.309
what was the bigger prize that night? Totally

00:13:21.309 --> 00:13:23.169
saying. Okay, all right. That's for you saying.

00:13:23.289 --> 00:13:26.190
That's verified. So you've worked across all

00:13:26.190 --> 00:13:28.149
these countries, learned all these amazing languages.

00:13:28.490 --> 00:13:32.110
What have you needed to unlearn? from you know

00:13:32.110 --> 00:13:33.889
either your earlier roles or just from your earlier

00:13:33.889 --> 00:13:37.169
past experience I think when you are early in

00:13:37.169 --> 00:13:38.629
your career particularly if you come straight

00:13:38.629 --> 00:13:41.720
out of university and you start working When

00:13:41.720 --> 00:13:44.440
you are a student, so much of it is about individual

00:13:44.440 --> 00:13:46.279
recognition. You write the paper and it has your

00:13:46.279 --> 00:13:48.620
name on it. And then you get into a workplace

00:13:48.620 --> 00:13:50.899
and you realise that very often the product doesn't

00:13:50.899 --> 00:13:54.039
say buy someone. You just have to ship it and

00:13:54.039 --> 00:13:56.059
have to trust that people will know. I think

00:13:56.059 --> 00:13:57.759
there's a truth that you can obviously always

00:13:57.759 --> 00:13:59.700
advocate for yourself. You can champion your

00:13:59.700 --> 00:14:02.100
work. You can find champions of your work. But

00:14:02.100 --> 00:14:03.960
interestingly for me, when I think about leadership

00:14:03.960 --> 00:14:07.639
as opposed to just individual contribution, I

00:14:07.639 --> 00:14:09.759
worked in organisations at a time when there

00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:12.279
were very few women in leadership. So I didn't,

00:14:12.279 --> 00:14:14.399
again, that concept of kind of growing up in

00:14:14.399 --> 00:14:16.480
the corporate space, I didn't really grow up

00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:19.919
observing women lead. I grew up with male bosses

00:14:19.919 --> 00:14:23.139
and male leaders and a particular type of leadership

00:14:23.139 --> 00:14:26.059
that was more common than not. And so one thing

00:14:26.059 --> 00:14:28.059
I had to unlearn was the idea that the loudest

00:14:28.059 --> 00:14:31.000
voice in the room is the leader. You know, another

00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:33.500
thing for me that has been, I will say, a good

00:14:33.500 --> 00:14:36.090
but a hard lesson when I continue to learn. I

00:14:36.090 --> 00:14:39.149
do love to talk, but listening is one of the

00:14:39.149 --> 00:14:41.450
most important skills of a leader. Being able

00:14:41.450 --> 00:14:44.370
to listen deeply and actively and continuously.

00:14:45.129 --> 00:14:47.309
I think understanding that a leader isn't always

00:14:47.309 --> 00:14:48.990
front and centre, although sometimes you have

00:14:48.990 --> 00:14:51.529
to be, but you also have to walk alongside people.

00:14:51.850 --> 00:14:54.529
And I found for myself, you know, the people

00:14:54.529 --> 00:14:56.409
that I think are the most spectacular leaders,

00:14:56.570 --> 00:14:58.509
the most creative, the most resilient, the most

00:14:58.509 --> 00:15:02.769
successful, the most centred and grounded, they're

00:15:02.769 --> 00:15:05.799
not showing people their superpowers. They're

00:15:05.799 --> 00:15:08.580
helping other people find their own superpowers.

00:15:08.740 --> 00:15:10.580
And so there's something about leadership that

00:15:10.580 --> 00:15:12.820
is about unlocking something in someone else,

00:15:12.899 --> 00:15:14.779
not just about what you showcase in yourself.

00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:17.820
I was actually going to say, because your voice

00:15:17.820 --> 00:15:23.559
is very calm and it's very gentle. And, you know,

00:15:23.600 --> 00:15:25.379
the fact that you just said that you don't need

00:15:25.379 --> 00:15:27.480
to be the loudest person in the room, but yet

00:15:27.480 --> 00:15:32.600
you can still get this amazing connection with

00:15:32.600 --> 00:15:38.100
people. I feel it. Although I do tend to be the

00:15:38.100 --> 00:15:40.539
loudest person in the room. There's no shade

00:15:40.539 --> 00:15:42.220
on the loudest person, to be clear. I cannot

00:15:42.220 --> 00:15:46.360
help myself. Sorry, guys. So you mentioned that

00:15:46.360 --> 00:15:48.419
when you were, you know, as a younger professional,

00:15:48.799 --> 00:15:51.059
you didn't have a lot to look up to. You didn't

00:15:51.059 --> 00:15:53.019
see a lot of women in roles that you wanted or

00:15:53.019 --> 00:15:55.240
that you were aspiring toward. But your daughters

00:15:55.240 --> 00:15:57.399
do get to see that. They don't just get to see

00:15:57.399 --> 00:15:59.580
it, you know, tangentially in the working world.

00:15:59.639 --> 00:16:02.620
They get to see it in their house with you. What

00:16:02.620 --> 00:16:05.240
do you want your daughters to learn from your

00:16:05.240 --> 00:16:08.019
example as a working mom? So the first thing

00:16:08.019 --> 00:16:09.759
I would caveat is I want my daughters and my

00:16:09.759 --> 00:16:11.620
son to learn this, but I totally hear the point.

00:16:12.519 --> 00:16:15.580
I think the first thing is I want them to know

00:16:15.580 --> 00:16:17.519
that I was fearless in my pursuit of excellence.

00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:21.960
I want them to know that I said yes to the adventure,

00:16:22.179 --> 00:16:25.399
even when I wasn't feeling ready or knowing for

00:16:25.399 --> 00:16:28.820
sure, that I went into every room and every relationship

00:16:28.820 --> 00:16:31.740
with empathy. You know, equal parts head and

00:16:31.740 --> 00:16:34.539
heart, and that matters. And that everything

00:16:34.539 --> 00:16:37.019
that I did, I did it for them, but also that

00:16:37.019 --> 00:16:40.019
I couldn't do it without them and that, you know,

00:16:40.019 --> 00:16:42.740
that's part of what has given me this drive and

00:16:42.740 --> 00:16:45.159
what has made me this person. How old are your

00:16:45.159 --> 00:16:48.120
children? My young, well, the short answer is

00:16:48.120 --> 00:16:50.379
five, three and one. But you know, with children,

00:16:50.440 --> 00:16:51.879
we get into months and we're kind of approaching

00:16:51.879 --> 00:16:55.019
birthdays. You can always remember hers and mine

00:16:55.019 --> 00:16:57.879
are the same. Amanda and I not only know each

00:16:57.879 --> 00:16:59.460
other, we've literally been on pregnancy journeys

00:16:59.460 --> 00:17:02.500
in parallel. It's been quite an amazing thing.

00:17:03.320 --> 00:17:06.440
So recently, my husband and I started watching

00:17:06.440 --> 00:17:09.279
this program on Amazon and it's called Special

00:17:09.279 --> 00:17:11.640
Ops Lioness. Has anyone seen it? Heard of it?

00:17:11.700 --> 00:17:16.970
Yeah. Okay. It's about... CIA agent she is a

00:17:16.970 --> 00:17:19.809
female she's very high level I don't want to

00:17:19.809 --> 00:17:22.109
you know kill off what the story is about but

00:17:22.109 --> 00:17:26.369
she has a family so she's married she's got two

00:17:26.369 --> 00:17:28.769
daughters and her relationship with her eldest

00:17:28.769 --> 00:17:32.849
daughter is not great because obviously she's

00:17:32.849 --> 00:17:35.509
been she's a field agent so she's been out of

00:17:35.509 --> 00:17:38.690
the home environment And then the husband's also

00:17:38.690 --> 00:17:41.490
working and he's also busy because he's a surgeon.

00:17:41.549 --> 00:17:43.609
So he's not really around. I mean, he's trying

00:17:43.609 --> 00:17:45.410
to be around, but he's not around as much as

00:17:45.410 --> 00:17:48.750
he can be. And it's really made their situation

00:17:48.750 --> 00:17:51.210
difficult. You know, like the relationship between

00:17:51.210 --> 00:17:53.029
the mother and daughter. Is there something you

00:17:53.029 --> 00:17:55.069
worry about being in such a high powered position

00:17:55.069 --> 00:17:57.490
and about the time that you can give to your

00:17:57.490 --> 00:17:59.910
kids and how it would affect them? Because obviously

00:17:59.910 --> 00:18:01.490
they're quite little now, but obviously as they

00:18:01.490 --> 00:18:04.069
get older, that's such a, you know, it's a big

00:18:04.069 --> 00:18:05.269
thing. And it's something that's been playing

00:18:05.269 --> 00:18:07.809
on my mind as well. Like, I need to spend time

00:18:07.809 --> 00:18:12.109
with my children because they do need me. And,

00:18:12.190 --> 00:18:13.869
you know, everything that I'm doing, I say I'm

00:18:13.869 --> 00:18:15.869
doing it for them. But is it really for them?

00:18:15.950 --> 00:18:18.250
You know, I don't know. It's a great question.

00:18:18.390 --> 00:18:21.009
And look, I think, you know, someone once said

00:18:21.009 --> 00:18:22.569
this to me, that every mother's middle name is

00:18:22.569 --> 00:18:24.509
guilt. And I think that there is a truth to that.

00:18:24.650 --> 00:18:27.750
So what I would say to you is I have learnt,

00:18:27.869 --> 00:18:30.970
you know, through hard lessons myself, but...

00:18:31.589 --> 00:18:33.269
I think that the best gift that you can give

00:18:33.269 --> 00:18:35.470
them is your undivided attention, no matter how

00:18:35.470 --> 00:18:37.690
much the time is. Because especially when they're

00:18:37.690 --> 00:18:39.150
little, and obviously this changes as they get

00:18:39.150 --> 00:18:41.970
older, but children don't necessarily have the

00:18:41.970 --> 00:18:44.410
same sense of time that we do. My children are

00:18:44.410 --> 00:18:46.250
now starting to learn to read the clock, so I

00:18:46.250 --> 00:18:48.789
have to be more mindful of that. But I say this

00:18:48.789 --> 00:18:51.569
because if you're in the room with them, but

00:18:51.569 --> 00:18:53.910
you're not in the room with them, it's like you're

00:18:53.910 --> 00:18:56.569
not in the room at all. And, you know, what I

00:18:56.569 --> 00:18:58.849
realise is this idea of like looking up from

00:18:58.849 --> 00:19:00.450
your device saying, I'm just going to finish

00:19:00.450 --> 00:19:03.049
this while you do that thing. They just want

00:19:03.049 --> 00:19:06.569
you. Yeah. You know, they just want to know that

00:19:06.569 --> 00:19:09.509
you are in it, whatever it is with them. And

00:19:09.509 --> 00:19:11.289
I think to myself right now they're very small

00:19:11.289 --> 00:19:13.369
so they need me in quite a physical way that's

00:19:13.369 --> 00:19:16.269
going to change as they get older. But I also

00:19:16.269 --> 00:19:18.289
think about my experience of being a teenager,

00:19:18.430 --> 00:19:20.869
of the teenagers that I have kind of taken under

00:19:20.869 --> 00:19:23.150
my wing for different reasons, sometimes because

00:19:23.150 --> 00:19:25.470
they've had real problems in their life and other

00:19:25.470 --> 00:19:27.789
times because they've just been people that reminded

00:19:27.789 --> 00:19:29.829
me of me and I really wanted to kind of see can

00:19:29.829 --> 00:19:32.269
I do anything to accelerate or amplify their

00:19:32.269 --> 00:19:35.150
opportunities. So much of it is about access.

00:19:35.269 --> 00:19:38.500
It's about... being able to open yourself up.

00:19:38.619 --> 00:19:41.359
And I think one thing that I'm trying to do more

00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:43.720
of, and it's not an easy intuitive thing for

00:19:43.720 --> 00:19:46.019
me, but the point about vulnerability and about

00:19:46.019 --> 00:19:49.220
letting them see you, all of you. You know, I

00:19:49.220 --> 00:19:54.319
think a lot of what I saw modelled as motherhood

00:19:54.319 --> 00:19:58.480
from working women was often that they were invisible

00:19:58.480 --> 00:20:01.869
parents. Not that they have to have every conversation

00:20:01.869 --> 00:20:04.289
led by a story about their children, but it was

00:20:04.289 --> 00:20:06.269
kind of an inconvenience that was on the side

00:20:06.269 --> 00:20:08.230
and kind of either not talked about or kind of

00:20:08.230 --> 00:20:10.630
not really acknowledged. And I think that...

00:20:10.990 --> 00:20:13.089
for my children to get everything that they deserve

00:20:13.089 --> 00:20:15.809
from me I have to make choices every day about

00:20:15.809 --> 00:20:18.390
when I am fully present for work and when I'm

00:20:18.390 --> 00:20:20.650
fully present for them and in some ways it has

00:20:20.650 --> 00:20:23.349
to be somewhat non -negotiable so I say this

00:20:23.349 --> 00:20:25.990
as an example I had an amazing c -suite executive

00:20:25.990 --> 00:20:28.690
who had three children while she was in the c

00:20:28.690 --> 00:20:31.289
-suite and she said to me you know if nothing

00:20:31.289 --> 00:20:34.279
else What I have taught the CEO of the company

00:20:34.279 --> 00:20:36.880
is that between five and seven, I'm unavailable

00:20:36.880 --> 00:20:40.119
because that's bath time and bedtime. And I thought

00:20:40.119 --> 00:20:42.000
to myself, maybe you have to be a C -suite executive

00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:44.819
to be able to draw those lines. But as I have

00:20:44.819 --> 00:20:47.359
experienced different roles in different organisations,

00:20:47.579 --> 00:20:50.859
I realised that setting a boundary is an act

00:20:50.859 --> 00:20:54.140
of self -love, but enforcing the boundary is

00:20:54.140 --> 00:20:57.420
an act of self -respect. And so when you really

00:20:57.420 --> 00:20:59.920
lean into that, you realize that every day you

00:20:59.920 --> 00:21:02.079
make choices and you always have a choice about

00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:04.140
how you allocate your time and your energy, especially

00:21:04.140 --> 00:21:06.640
when it comes to your kids. Good. I love that.

00:21:06.740 --> 00:21:08.980
I love that. And I love the language you used

00:21:08.980 --> 00:21:12.019
about teaching the CEO what a boundary looks

00:21:12.019 --> 00:21:15.019
like. I didn't ask for it. I didn't beg for it.

00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:18.200
I didn't freak out about it. I said it and I

00:21:18.200 --> 00:21:20.420
taught someone a lesson. And I think that is

00:21:20.420 --> 00:21:23.750
a very powerful use of language. So we have our

00:21:23.750 --> 00:21:25.769
beautiful sponsors here on the 40s Formula, the

00:21:25.769 --> 00:21:27.549
Meat Club, and they have submitted a question

00:21:27.549 --> 00:21:29.369
to ask. So I thought this one would be right

00:21:29.369 --> 00:21:31.109
up your alley, girl, because I know you love

00:21:31.109 --> 00:21:35.450
a good steak. OK, what is your go to kind of,

00:21:35.450 --> 00:21:38.130
you know, favorite protein packed meal that you

00:21:38.130 --> 00:21:40.210
always go for when you're traveling or on the

00:21:40.210 --> 00:21:42.829
road? So this is probably going to sound very

00:21:42.829 --> 00:21:44.950
boring, but I actually think it's an amazing

00:21:44.950 --> 00:21:47.049
thing to have a great steak that is with, you

00:21:47.049 --> 00:21:49.769
know. I'm very, lots of pepper, you know, the

00:21:49.769 --> 00:21:51.990
coarse grains of salt. I don't even necessarily

00:21:51.990 --> 00:21:54.750
need sauces, but it's the letting the meat kind

00:21:54.750 --> 00:21:57.829
of just sing. Is that the Australia in you? I'm

00:21:57.829 --> 00:22:00.250
sure it is. I apologize to any vegan or vegetarian

00:22:00.250 --> 00:22:03.109
listening that feels affronted. No apologies

00:22:03.109 --> 00:22:05.069
needed because again, Meat Club does source all

00:22:05.069 --> 00:22:06.349
of their meats from Australia and New Zealand.

00:22:06.410 --> 00:22:08.789
So you are just representing your nation, my

00:22:08.789 --> 00:22:11.369
dears. Thank you for that. And they do offer

00:22:11.369 --> 00:22:14.329
a subscription service with $20 off your first

00:22:14.329 --> 00:22:17.960
order if you use code TFF20 today. So talk to

00:22:17.960 --> 00:22:20.380
us a little bit about that balancing ambition,

00:22:20.619 --> 00:22:22.759
right? Because it seems like such a kind of canned

00:22:22.759 --> 00:22:24.539
question, right? How do you balance being a mom

00:22:24.539 --> 00:22:27.259
and work? But I think women need to hear about

00:22:27.259 --> 00:22:29.240
specific strategies, the one you just mentioned,

00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:31.539
right? Teaching a boundary or setting a line.

00:22:31.700 --> 00:22:34.160
What are some of the specific strategies that

00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:37.299
you have used in balancing your motherhood with

00:22:37.299 --> 00:22:39.759
your role in the workplace? So the first thing

00:22:39.759 --> 00:22:42.380
that I would say, I don't think this is controversial,

00:22:42.440 --> 00:22:45.619
but I also don't think perhaps... A lot of women

00:22:45.619 --> 00:22:47.460
give themselves permission to say this out loud.

00:22:47.859 --> 00:22:50.980
I no longer believe in work -life balance. I

00:22:50.980 --> 00:22:53.799
was just thinking that. I was thinking, is there

00:22:53.799 --> 00:22:56.579
really a balance? So I think the concept of balance

00:22:56.579 --> 00:22:59.099
is both triggering and somewhat a false equivalency

00:22:59.099 --> 00:23:01.039
because I think the problem that happens when

00:23:01.039 --> 00:23:03.299
we come back to the idea whether you are a working

00:23:03.299 --> 00:23:05.880
mother or just a working woman, the idea of balance

00:23:05.880 --> 00:23:08.759
I think... creates a situation where you always

00:23:08.759 --> 00:23:11.420
feel like you are failing. Yeah. Because there's

00:23:11.420 --> 00:23:13.240
no world where you kind of, you know, you reach

00:23:13.240 --> 00:23:14.960
the top of the mountain and then you have arrived,

00:23:15.099 --> 00:23:17.099
balance is yours, you know, and you hold your

00:23:17.099 --> 00:23:18.980
breath and you enjoy that moment. The truth is

00:23:18.980 --> 00:23:20.799
that every single day, every decision you make

00:23:20.799 --> 00:23:22.859
tips you one way or the other, a little bit more

00:23:22.859 --> 00:23:25.019
in favour of home or personal requirements and

00:23:25.019 --> 00:23:26.920
a little bit more in favour of work. There are

00:23:26.920 --> 00:23:29.269
days when I feel like I am... kicking ass at

00:23:29.269 --> 00:23:31.509
my job and that's not normally the same day that

00:23:31.509 --> 00:23:33.069
I feel like I'm being the best mother I can be

00:23:33.069 --> 00:23:35.390
you know there are other days for example where

00:23:35.390 --> 00:23:38.210
I feel like I've really allowed myself to come

00:23:38.210 --> 00:23:40.769
home with something to give to my husband that

00:23:40.769 --> 00:23:43.130
I'm not completely depleted and then there are

00:23:43.130 --> 00:23:45.230
other days where you know I'm really operating

00:23:45.230 --> 00:23:47.589
on zero and I'm like thank you babe for taking

00:23:47.589 --> 00:23:49.109
care of the kids you know for this particular

00:23:49.109 --> 00:23:52.200
thing that I would normally do so it's not It's

00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:53.819
not, I think, again, it's not a linear thing,

00:23:53.940 --> 00:23:56.579
but if I think about specific strategies, I think

00:23:56.579 --> 00:23:58.460
the first one of them is understanding, like

00:23:58.460 --> 00:24:01.220
really honestly for yourself, what matters to

00:24:01.220 --> 00:24:04.839
you. So as an example, one of the things that

00:24:04.839 --> 00:24:06.619
I feel really strongly about, because it's such

00:24:06.619 --> 00:24:08.619
an important part of who I am, is I love reading.

00:24:09.180 --> 00:24:11.559
I love voraciously everything in any language.

00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:13.619
Like, I just love it, right? Love listening to

00:24:13.619 --> 00:24:16.460
podcasts. Shout out the 40s formula. But I, you

00:24:16.460 --> 00:24:19.380
know, I love being able to immerse myself in

00:24:19.380 --> 00:24:21.140
different worlds. I love, you know, the learning

00:24:21.140 --> 00:24:23.019
that comes from reading facts, you know, all

00:24:23.019 --> 00:24:25.640
of this stuff. And so I want to raise readers.

00:24:26.599 --> 00:24:29.819
And so for me, for example, that means time that

00:24:29.819 --> 00:24:31.660
is spent reading with my children is precious.

00:24:31.900 --> 00:24:34.079
Because if I don't invest in that, you know,

00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:35.440
it's not just about a development milestone.

00:24:35.700 --> 00:24:38.400
It's about how can I embed something in them?

00:24:38.970 --> 00:24:41.210
That stays with them forever, no matter what

00:24:41.210 --> 00:24:44.589
room they're in, how they evolve as adults. So

00:24:44.589 --> 00:24:47.150
carving out time to do that matters to me, for

00:24:47.150 --> 00:24:49.349
example. When I'm on the road, and obviously

00:24:49.349 --> 00:24:51.869
it's different for everybody, I'm really mindful,

00:24:51.990 --> 00:24:53.589
especially because my children are very young.

00:24:53.710 --> 00:24:56.069
My husband is the primary caregiver of our children.

00:24:56.539 --> 00:24:59.000
He made the sacrifice so that I could continue

00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:01.460
to do what I do and that our children could be

00:25:01.460 --> 00:25:04.059
raised by a parent, which is amazing. And having

00:25:04.059 --> 00:25:06.740
their dad be that person is such a special gift

00:25:06.740 --> 00:25:10.099
and not so common. So it's a really unique situation

00:25:10.099 --> 00:25:14.420
for us. And I find that as an example, for me,

00:25:14.420 --> 00:25:16.859
because I have travelled so extensively for my

00:25:16.859 --> 00:25:19.740
job, and Amanda knows this firsthand, but I would

00:25:19.740 --> 00:25:22.049
say probably the last 10... potentially even

00:25:22.049 --> 00:25:24.630
the last 15 years, my average kind of work travel

00:25:24.630 --> 00:25:26.869
schedule was between 70 % and 90 % of the time

00:25:26.869 --> 00:25:29.430
on the road. Wow. You know, it's an average of

00:25:29.430 --> 00:25:31.950
somewhere almost touching or over 300 days a

00:25:31.950 --> 00:25:33.869
year. And when you have very small children,

00:25:33.990 --> 00:25:36.650
that means that you are away a lot. So for me,

00:25:36.650 --> 00:25:38.329
one thing that I did that helped me deal with

00:25:38.329 --> 00:25:40.789
some of the guilt, rightly or wrongly, is I made

00:25:40.789 --> 00:25:42.950
the decision that I would continue to pump so

00:25:42.950 --> 00:25:44.589
that I could give my children what I deemed to

00:25:44.589 --> 00:25:46.369
be the best that I had to offer, even though

00:25:46.369 --> 00:25:48.970
I wasn't with them. And with that comes a sacrifice

00:25:48.970 --> 00:25:50.990
in time. It comes learning about the logistics

00:25:50.990 --> 00:25:53.690
of how to, you know, ship and store. It comes

00:25:53.690 --> 00:25:57.029
with keeping your body in a shape that actually

00:25:57.029 --> 00:25:58.950
you can make that contribution and it's meaningful.

00:25:59.450 --> 00:26:02.250
So I don't think it's so much just about, you

00:26:02.250 --> 00:26:04.890
know, I color code my calendar, you know, I carve

00:26:04.890 --> 00:26:07.069
out this time. I know there are people who believe,

00:26:07.190 --> 00:26:09.250
for example, in the boundary is, you know, setting

00:26:09.250 --> 00:26:11.349
sacred spaces in your calendar or telling people

00:26:11.349 --> 00:26:13.410
certain things are off limits. But the thing

00:26:13.410 --> 00:26:15.170
that I would say is what you do is so much more

00:26:15.170 --> 00:26:18.720
important than what you say. In particular, I

00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:22.519
say this very, very sincerely. I waited a very

00:26:22.519 --> 00:26:24.559
long time to have children for reasons that we

00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:27.460
may talk about later, but a big part of me believed

00:26:27.460 --> 00:26:30.839
that if I had them at an earlier point in my

00:26:30.839 --> 00:26:32.799
career, that that would be the end of my growth

00:26:32.799 --> 00:26:35.839
because that's what I had observed. It doesn't

00:26:35.839 --> 00:26:37.400
make it true. It just means that that was the

00:26:37.400 --> 00:26:41.859
experience I was exposed to. What I want people

00:26:41.859 --> 00:26:44.019
to know that if they want to have a family and

00:26:44.019 --> 00:26:45.819
if they don't, more power to them so there's

00:26:45.819 --> 00:26:47.779
no judgment in this statement. But if this is

00:26:47.779 --> 00:26:49.720
something that they want, there's never a right

00:26:49.720 --> 00:26:51.940
time. There's never a perfect time. There's never

00:26:51.940 --> 00:26:54.319
a lull in the busyness of one's life or one's

00:26:54.319 --> 00:26:57.700
job. So if you want things, you alone have to

00:26:57.700 --> 00:26:59.480
make the decision about what it is that matters

00:26:59.480 --> 00:27:01.740
and then you have to carve out space because,

00:27:01.839 --> 00:27:04.400
you know, these are choices that we all get to

00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:07.599
make. And if you don't do that, someone else

00:27:07.599 --> 00:27:10.839
will take that time, you know. And I mean, you

00:27:10.839 --> 00:27:12.839
hit it on the head about, you know, you want

00:27:12.839 --> 00:27:15.539
to raise readers. You set aside time to read

00:27:15.539 --> 00:27:17.519
with your children. Yeah. You know, obviously

00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:19.799
in our house, health and fitness is a huge part

00:27:19.799 --> 00:27:22.799
of how we raise our kids. And so I am with my

00:27:22.799 --> 00:27:24.859
kids in the pool at swimming lessons and I am

00:27:24.859 --> 00:27:26.779
with my kids on the floor at gymnastics. You

00:27:26.779 --> 00:27:28.559
know, I'm not sitting in a room somewhere taking

00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:31.130
a call. on the floor with them doing a cartwheel

00:27:31.130 --> 00:27:33.650
or doing whatever, that is extremely important

00:27:33.650 --> 00:27:36.130
to me. It takes up a huge amount of time. It

00:27:36.130 --> 00:27:38.170
would be so much easier for those of us here

00:27:38.170 --> 00:27:39.750
in Singapore to send my helper with the kids

00:27:39.750 --> 00:27:41.890
over to the class. But no, I need to be there

00:27:41.890 --> 00:27:44.630
with them because I need that modeling to start

00:27:44.630 --> 00:27:46.930
in the home with us. But like you said, you must

00:27:46.930 --> 00:27:50.130
then carve that time out of where it would go

00:27:50.130 --> 00:27:52.470
otherwise. And we're constantly making those

00:27:52.470 --> 00:27:53.950
tradeoffs. And the one additional build that

00:27:53.950 --> 00:27:55.569
I would say, and obviously I'm very fortunate

00:27:55.569 --> 00:27:57.910
to be in an incredibly supportive relationship.

00:27:58.859 --> 00:28:00.900
in the form of my husband's commitment to raising

00:28:00.900 --> 00:28:03.940
our children together. But who you have as a

00:28:03.940 --> 00:28:06.480
partner, a true partner in that process, makes

00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:09.440
all the difference. So having someone who you

00:28:09.440 --> 00:28:11.460
can tag team with, who you can say, I've got

00:28:11.460 --> 00:28:14.160
this, you go do that, and or the trades that

00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:15.740
you can make with each other because you are

00:28:15.740 --> 00:28:18.980
both in it deeply and committed to how it should

00:28:18.980 --> 00:28:21.859
be experienced by your kids. So Amanda, you know

00:28:21.859 --> 00:28:23.240
how I've been on this journey about improving

00:28:23.240 --> 00:28:25.079
my sleep? Oh, you have been obsessed about it

00:28:25.079 --> 00:28:28.349
lately. Well, I have found something that has

00:28:28.349 --> 00:28:32.430
been incredible. Cozy Earth bed sheets. That's

00:28:32.430 --> 00:28:34.329
saying a lot because you are really picky about

00:28:34.329 --> 00:28:36.730
your sleep setup. Exactly. These sheets are made

00:28:36.730 --> 00:28:39.470
from bamboo viscose. They are naturally breathable

00:28:39.470 --> 00:28:42.890
and I get the perfect night's sleep. They keep

00:28:42.890 --> 00:28:45.789
me cool all night. Oh, and I've been eyeing the

00:28:45.789 --> 00:28:48.309
pajamas too. They are so chic and super cozy.

00:28:48.759 --> 00:28:51.500
It's a total game changer and so relaxing for

00:28:51.500 --> 00:28:54.259
the evenings. And what's crazy is that Cozy Earth

00:28:54.259 --> 00:28:57.519
actually ships to Singapore, orders over $560

00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:01.039
ship free, and in the US orders over $50 ship

00:29:01.039 --> 00:29:03.220
free. And did you know you can get your biggest

00:29:03.220 --> 00:29:08.740
ever discount, 41 % if you use code TFF today.

00:29:08.839 --> 00:29:11.680
So head over to CozyEarth .com and use that code

00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:14.940
TFF today. Obviously, you are making sacrifices.

00:29:15.319 --> 00:29:17.799
What sort of things have you had to sacrifice

00:29:17.799 --> 00:29:20.640
in order to have the career that you want and

00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:23.099
obviously spend that time with your family? So,

00:29:23.160 --> 00:29:24.759
you know, is there something particular that

00:29:24.759 --> 00:29:27.619
you would otherwise love to do, but you've had

00:29:27.619 --> 00:29:33.019
to say no to? I'll try and not make this frivolous.

00:29:35.900 --> 00:29:37.539
There's a finite number of hours in the day.

00:29:37.579 --> 00:29:39.480
So I think that's obviously one part of it. You

00:29:39.480 --> 00:29:41.380
know, confessions on a podcast. I am not a big

00:29:41.380 --> 00:29:43.220
sleeper, which is not necessarily a point of

00:29:43.220 --> 00:29:45.079
pride. But, you know, one of the things that

00:29:45.079 --> 00:29:47.059
obviously I made choices about very early in

00:29:47.059 --> 00:29:49.099
my career in terms of this idea of really putting

00:29:49.099 --> 00:29:51.380
in the time and the work was, you know, burning

00:29:51.380 --> 00:29:55.019
the candle at both ends. probably the most I

00:29:55.019 --> 00:29:56.660
would say like the biggest sacrifices for me

00:29:56.660 --> 00:29:59.279
before I had children were things that actually

00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:02.240
had long -term health implications and not understanding

00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:04.579
that the sacrifices I was making the choices

00:30:04.579 --> 00:30:06.779
I was making that I actually I didn't have to

00:30:06.779 --> 00:30:08.220
make those I didn't have to give those things

00:30:08.220 --> 00:30:11.619
up um you know I I wish someone had said to me

00:30:11.619 --> 00:30:13.519
it's okay to say no to that you know you don't

00:30:13.519 --> 00:30:15.740
have to literally stay in the office 24 hours

00:30:15.740 --> 00:30:17.599
you know sleep under your desk like that kind

00:30:17.599 --> 00:30:20.099
of situation and that's not to suggest that that

00:30:20.099 --> 00:30:23.539
you know like I I love I love the hustle when

00:30:23.539 --> 00:30:25.420
things are intense and they're moving fast and,

00:30:25.460 --> 00:30:26.720
you know, you're in it and you're in the trenches

00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:28.859
with people. But I also think that everybody

00:30:28.859 --> 00:30:31.539
does need to be able to breathe, you know. Simple

00:30:31.539 --> 00:30:33.279
things for me, you know, it's funny when people

00:30:33.279 --> 00:30:35.779
ask me some advice around leadership, one of

00:30:35.779 --> 00:30:38.220
the first things that I say to them, my absolute,

00:30:38.279 --> 00:30:41.480
like, non -negotiable is hydration. Yes, you're

00:30:41.480 --> 00:30:43.539
so good at it. And honestly, like, it's funny

00:30:43.539 --> 00:30:45.609
because people look at you like... I'm sorry,

00:30:45.650 --> 00:30:49.289
was that your big epiphany? I better have some

00:30:49.289 --> 00:30:51.750
water. And people know I carry a very large bottle.

00:30:51.809 --> 00:30:55.430
But, you know, the brain is a very large percentage

00:30:55.430 --> 00:30:58.809
made up of water. And when you are dehydrated,

00:30:58.849 --> 00:31:01.190
the first thing that goes is your mental acuity,

00:31:01.210 --> 00:31:03.509
that clarity, that sharpness of thought. So if

00:31:03.509 --> 00:31:05.390
you are go, go, go, if you are the person that

00:31:05.390 --> 00:31:06.930
the buck stops with you, you have to make the

00:31:06.930 --> 00:31:09.339
decision, you have to carry the thing. You have

00:31:09.339 --> 00:31:11.680
to drink water. You know, it's crazy, but like,

00:31:11.759 --> 00:31:14.460
there you go. And I love it. No, and again, you

00:31:14.460 --> 00:31:16.059
are really a model of drinking water, by the

00:31:16.059 --> 00:31:17.519
way, as someone who sees your water log. It's

00:31:17.519 --> 00:31:20.339
very, very impressive. You mentioned how kind

00:31:20.339 --> 00:31:22.579
of the conventional script for moms in corporate,

00:31:22.720 --> 00:31:24.339
right, was to just kind of sweep the kids under

00:31:24.339 --> 00:31:25.740
the rug, not sweep them under the rug, but not

00:31:25.740 --> 00:31:27.880
bring it up, right? It's this thing that exists

00:31:27.880 --> 00:31:30.359
outside of work in the capsule that is not to

00:31:30.359 --> 00:31:34.200
do with work. I would say that this is also where...

00:31:34.539 --> 00:31:38.259
your health has been siloed out to when you are

00:31:38.259 --> 00:31:40.359
a high performing, high functioning, public facing

00:31:40.359 --> 00:31:44.299
corporate female. Yeah. But you are someone who

00:31:44.299 --> 00:31:46.480
doesn't do that. You are someone who is actually

00:31:46.480 --> 00:31:49.259
quite forthcoming about some of your health struggles.

00:31:49.420 --> 00:31:51.900
And I think probably one that you and I have

00:31:51.900 --> 00:31:54.160
talked about quite a bit is your current struggle

00:31:54.160 --> 00:31:56.960
with endometriosis. Yeah. Are you willing to

00:31:56.960 --> 00:31:59.559
open up a little bit about how that journey has

00:31:59.559 --> 00:32:01.180
unfolded over the past year, year and a half?

00:32:01.279 --> 00:32:04.859
Sure. So I think maybe the starting point I would

00:32:04.859 --> 00:32:08.000
say is for me, certainly in a professional setting,

00:32:08.140 --> 00:32:10.559
vulnerability is not a default. It's actually

00:32:10.559 --> 00:32:12.900
something that I've had to learn both to do and

00:32:12.900 --> 00:32:14.599
to get comfortable and more comfortable with.

00:32:15.059 --> 00:32:19.400
I definitely saw kind of the path to success,

00:32:19.519 --> 00:32:21.400
as I said, kind of defined in a certain way,

00:32:21.440 --> 00:32:24.299
but also that as a female, even at the earlier

00:32:24.299 --> 00:32:26.660
stages of my career, that... In a lot of ways

00:32:26.660 --> 00:32:29.160
kind of holding things back was a little bit

00:32:29.160 --> 00:32:31.619
like having protective armour and so not saying

00:32:31.619 --> 00:32:33.200
everything, not sharing everything, not bringing

00:32:33.200 --> 00:32:35.319
people into some of my experiences or challenges

00:32:35.319 --> 00:32:38.720
was a way in theory to not distract them and

00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:40.319
have them focus on the thing which was the work

00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:42.299
product as opposed to whatever's going on with

00:32:42.299 --> 00:32:44.839
the person. I do not recommend that to other

00:32:44.839 --> 00:32:47.119
people but that is part of the truth of what

00:32:47.119 --> 00:32:52.099
I have done. I think that there's just a truth

00:32:52.099 --> 00:32:53.779
that when you live with chronic pain it changes

00:32:53.779 --> 00:32:58.549
you. And I think for me, because my path to a

00:32:58.549 --> 00:33:00.609
diagnosis with endometriosis, so I have stage

00:33:00.609 --> 00:33:04.890
four invasive endo, which is quite severe. And

00:33:04.890 --> 00:33:07.630
it took, you know, almost 30 years for me to

00:33:07.630 --> 00:33:10.450
get my diagnosis. Oh, my God. And a lot of that,

00:33:10.450 --> 00:33:11.910
you know, when I think about kind of some of

00:33:11.910 --> 00:33:15.410
the reasons why I was masking my pain symptoms

00:33:15.410 --> 00:33:18.410
and or, you know, pushing through, you know,

00:33:18.410 --> 00:33:20.490
moving on compartmentalizing that particular

00:33:20.490 --> 00:33:23.390
component of my life. is because I really sincerely

00:33:23.390 --> 00:33:25.329
thought that if people knew that I was in constant

00:33:25.329 --> 00:33:27.750
pain, they would think I was weak and that therefore

00:33:27.750 --> 00:33:30.569
I was not leadership material. So how did you

00:33:30.569 --> 00:33:33.750
get through just the day -to -day? Like, how

00:33:33.750 --> 00:33:37.130
did you do it? Because stage four, that must

00:33:37.130 --> 00:33:40.269
have been... Oh, God. It's a debilitating level

00:33:40.269 --> 00:33:43.049
of pain that happens cyclically all the time.

00:33:43.230 --> 00:33:47.450
Yeah. So people that have endometriosis that

00:33:47.450 --> 00:33:50.119
are in stage four invasive generally... would

00:33:50.119 --> 00:33:52.259
say that they are in a 7 out of 10 pain scale

00:33:52.259 --> 00:33:55.339
all the time. Fucking hell. And I think that

00:33:55.339 --> 00:33:57.779
one of the things for me is living with pain

00:33:57.779 --> 00:34:02.339
for an extended period of time and seeking advice

00:34:02.339 --> 00:34:05.559
from medical professionals only to be met with

00:34:05.559 --> 00:34:10.159
versions of that's normal, that's what it's like

00:34:10.159 --> 00:34:13.820
being a woman. You know, everyone has that. You

00:34:13.820 --> 00:34:17.090
just need to toughen up. That sounds like it's

00:34:17.090 --> 00:34:18.690
probably more in your head than it is in your

00:34:18.690 --> 00:34:21.230
body. You know, these are real statements by

00:34:21.230 --> 00:34:24.610
medical professionals and irrespective, you know,

00:34:24.630 --> 00:34:26.949
this is not to throw shade on the profession,

00:34:27.090 --> 00:34:29.409
but there's so much that's not understood about

00:34:29.409 --> 00:34:32.070
this disease. And, you know, the average person

00:34:32.070 --> 00:34:34.849
takes seven to ten years to get a diagnosis because

00:34:34.849 --> 00:34:38.869
it takes them that long to be believed. That's

00:34:38.869 --> 00:34:41.349
just terrible. It's terrible, but it's also,

00:34:41.469 --> 00:34:45.050
it's not... what we should settle for. And so

00:34:45.050 --> 00:34:47.610
I think the short answer of how do you do it

00:34:47.610 --> 00:34:49.869
is you just do it. You know, I don't have a,

00:34:49.889 --> 00:34:52.889
you know, you just show up every day and you

00:34:52.889 --> 00:34:54.710
do the best that you can. And for me sometimes

00:34:54.710 --> 00:34:57.590
that means, you know, the day is marked into

00:34:57.590 --> 00:35:00.010
very small moments as opposed to kind of, you

00:35:00.010 --> 00:35:02.389
know, large swaths of time because getting through

00:35:02.389 --> 00:35:04.289
those things requires different kinds of coping

00:35:04.289 --> 00:35:07.449
strategies. So were you always on like painkillers

00:35:07.449 --> 00:35:12.480
or? No. So interestingly, I, you know, I always

00:35:12.480 --> 00:35:15.760
felt that that would be the wrong path for me.

00:35:16.300 --> 00:35:19.199
Again, maybe some of that kind of in my own head

00:35:19.199 --> 00:35:21.420
about this concept of strength and weakness,

00:35:21.500 --> 00:35:24.179
but also, you know, particularly as I became

00:35:24.179 --> 00:35:26.440
a mother, there are a lot of things that you

00:35:26.440 --> 00:35:28.559
can't do, both when you are pregnant, but also

00:35:28.559 --> 00:35:31.099
when you're breastfeeding. And so that never

00:35:31.099 --> 00:35:33.500
felt like it was a... long -term strategy for

00:35:33.500 --> 00:35:35.360
me. I always felt like I had to find other things.

00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:37.900
So one of the things I'm so grateful for in my

00:35:37.900 --> 00:35:40.019
working relationship with Amanda is we share

00:35:40.019 --> 00:35:42.880
a mantra that movement is medicine. And that

00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:45.239
might sound counterintuitive, but for me, moving

00:35:45.239 --> 00:35:47.420
my body has actually been one of the saving graces

00:35:47.420 --> 00:35:53.820
of dealing with pain. I think that for me, one

00:35:53.820 --> 00:35:57.400
of the reasons why I found that I had this disease

00:35:57.400 --> 00:36:00.179
was because I desperately wanted to have children.

00:36:00.719 --> 00:36:03.579
But The funny thing for me or the ironic thing

00:36:03.579 --> 00:36:06.139
is that it took a fertility, you know, kind of

00:36:06.139 --> 00:36:08.559
experience as opposed to just a general health,

00:36:08.639 --> 00:36:10.579
women's health or reproductive health conversation

00:36:10.579 --> 00:36:14.079
to unearth this. And so it wasn't until I was,

00:36:14.099 --> 00:36:17.119
you know, at a place where we had kind of given

00:36:17.119 --> 00:36:19.820
up hope that we were going to be able to be parents

00:36:19.820 --> 00:36:23.420
that this diagnosis changed that for us. But

00:36:23.420 --> 00:36:25.840
the challenge is that endometriosis is actually...

00:36:26.489 --> 00:36:28.849
You know, it's a very clever and somewhat insidious

00:36:28.849 --> 00:36:31.730
disease because there are ways that the symptoms

00:36:31.730 --> 00:36:34.329
can be abated, they can be, you know, kind of

00:36:34.329 --> 00:36:38.670
lessened, but they never go away. And so, you

00:36:38.670 --> 00:36:41.690
know, I've had periods of no pain when I was

00:36:41.690 --> 00:36:43.769
pregnant, when I was breastfeeding with my children,

00:36:43.849 --> 00:36:46.489
but I am, you know, not pain -free and I would

00:36:46.489 --> 00:36:48.190
love to have that be my truth and it's just not.

00:36:48.829 --> 00:36:51.750
So, you know, I don't say this to be very clear

00:36:51.750 --> 00:36:53.809
because I want anyone to give me sympathy, but...

00:36:54.280 --> 00:36:56.179
One of the big things for me is realising that

00:36:56.179 --> 00:36:58.340
people deal with so much below the surface that

00:36:58.340 --> 00:37:00.639
you never know about and it costs you nothing

00:37:00.639 --> 00:37:03.579
to be kind. And I think about some of the ways

00:37:03.579 --> 00:37:05.460
that people have and haven't shown up for me,

00:37:05.820 --> 00:37:08.239
many of whom did not know this was going on in

00:37:08.239 --> 00:37:10.500
the background, but there are basic things that

00:37:10.500 --> 00:37:13.039
I think we can always extend to each other. So

00:37:13.039 --> 00:37:16.739
my journey, I think, has been both coming to

00:37:16.739 --> 00:37:20.820
a place where I trust myself. I decide to listen

00:37:20.820 --> 00:37:24.329
to my body rather than to ignore it. And also

00:37:24.329 --> 00:37:27.449
that I take agency over the experience that I

00:37:27.449 --> 00:37:31.090
have when people dismiss me. In some ways, the

00:37:31.090 --> 00:37:33.510
more I have learned about endometriosis, the

00:37:33.510 --> 00:37:35.329
more I have felt the confidence to challenge,

00:37:35.469 --> 00:37:38.190
to ask questions, to seek alternatives. And I

00:37:38.190 --> 00:37:40.070
think that's a really hard thing for a lot of

00:37:40.070 --> 00:37:42.469
women to do. Particularly when you're dealing

00:37:42.469 --> 00:37:45.710
with expertise that is presented with complete

00:37:45.710 --> 00:37:48.289
absolution. These are the solutions and or this

00:37:48.289 --> 00:37:49.969
is not a problem. Take it or leave it. Yeah.

00:37:54.509 --> 00:37:57.610
request my invitation to any woman, listen to

00:37:57.610 --> 00:38:00.989
your body. You know, if it is giving you a message,

00:38:01.230 --> 00:38:04.030
it means something. And generally it whispers

00:38:04.030 --> 00:38:06.250
first and then it shouts. And you don't have

00:38:06.250 --> 00:38:08.230
to wait until it's shouting before you take it

00:38:08.230 --> 00:38:10.929
seriously. But so many of us do because we don't

00:38:10.929 --> 00:38:13.650
put ourselves and our own health first. Can we

00:38:13.650 --> 00:38:15.570
have a feminist moment about this? Yes. Hoorah.

00:38:15.710 --> 00:38:18.650
You said you had 30 years before you got a diagnosis.

00:38:19.030 --> 00:38:22.630
Yeah. But isn't it interesting? that you got

00:38:22.630 --> 00:38:26.030
that diagnosis validated when you began your

00:38:26.030 --> 00:38:28.949
fertility journey. Because that is when a woman

00:38:28.949 --> 00:38:31.070
gets to have worth. Oh, you want to have a baby?

00:38:31.269 --> 00:38:33.449
You're going to fulfill your reproductive potential?

00:38:33.829 --> 00:38:36.150
Well, now we can take you seriously. Up until

00:38:36.150 --> 00:38:37.949
then, though, your pain didn't matter. It's going

00:38:37.949 --> 00:38:39.610
to matter in this short window while you're having

00:38:39.610 --> 00:38:41.869
babies or needing to. And then once you're through

00:38:41.869 --> 00:38:44.590
that period, your pain will again go back under

00:38:44.590 --> 00:38:46.630
the radar because menopause ain't nobody care.

00:38:46.969 --> 00:38:49.530
So I just think, like I said, the feminist message

00:38:49.530 --> 00:38:52.510
there is like you didn't even get to be taken

00:38:52.510 --> 00:38:55.309
seriously until fertility was in the equation.

00:38:55.389 --> 00:38:58.050
Then everybody wakes up. And I think part of

00:38:58.050 --> 00:39:00.769
what is so frustrating about that is my story

00:39:00.769 --> 00:39:03.570
is actually not uncommon. The period of time

00:39:03.570 --> 00:39:05.769
that it took for my diagnosis may be slightly

00:39:05.769 --> 00:39:08.190
longer than other people, but when we say it

00:39:08.190 --> 00:39:10.550
takes seven to ten years and we say one in seven

00:39:10.550 --> 00:39:13.050
women around the world have this disease, that's

00:39:13.050 --> 00:39:16.090
just of the people we know. See, you think about

00:39:16.090 --> 00:39:18.429
the fact that so many women sit on a life in

00:39:18.429 --> 00:39:20.710
pain with the assumption that this is their lot

00:39:20.710 --> 00:39:23.909
in life and also that we are strong, we are resilient,

00:39:24.070 --> 00:39:27.309
our bodies are built to tolerate a lot more by

00:39:27.309 --> 00:39:30.030
default of being capable of childbirth. And because

00:39:30.030 --> 00:39:33.090
of that... We put this off. We don't listen to

00:39:33.090 --> 00:39:35.949
ourselves. We kind of quiet that. And we think

00:39:35.949 --> 00:39:38.210
that actually this is acceptable. But I think

00:39:38.210 --> 00:39:40.130
about, you know, some of the language that I

00:39:40.130 --> 00:39:42.389
have heard from really wonderful advocates that

00:39:42.389 --> 00:39:44.230
have talked more about how they have progressed

00:39:44.230 --> 00:39:46.550
in their endometriosis journey. Being able to

00:39:46.550 --> 00:39:48.969
say to a medical professional, this is impacting

00:39:48.969 --> 00:39:51.809
my quality of life, is not a dismissible statement.

00:39:52.460 --> 00:39:54.739
I am in pain can often be seen as a subjective

00:39:54.739 --> 00:39:57.380
comment. But, you know, there are ways that you

00:39:57.380 --> 00:39:59.099
can equip yourself. And I think this is part

00:39:59.099 --> 00:40:01.320
of where for me, in a lot of ways, the more you

00:40:01.320 --> 00:40:04.880
learn, the more you can't but want to be more

00:40:04.880 --> 00:40:07.920
active and advocate for this space and for other

00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:10.019
women who might not be where they need to be

00:40:10.019 --> 00:40:12.159
in their journey. I guess even from an insurance

00:40:12.159 --> 00:40:14.320
perspective, you know, if it's not affecting

00:40:14.320 --> 00:40:16.420
your quality of life, then it's not going to

00:40:16.420 --> 00:40:18.460
get covered. But, you know, if it's stopping

00:40:18.460 --> 00:40:21.360
you from doing something. Having a baby. Yeah.

00:40:21.849 --> 00:40:24.590
then then it gets noticed yeah and i think you

00:40:24.590 --> 00:40:26.469
mentioned that there were periods of no pain

00:40:26.469 --> 00:40:29.690
because there were periods of no periods yes

00:40:29.690 --> 00:40:31.889
right i mean this is the only reason that you

00:40:31.889 --> 00:40:33.409
were freed from this pain is because you were

00:40:33.409 --> 00:40:35.550
having babies and breastfeeding yeah and again

00:40:35.550 --> 00:40:38.510
that also sets up a really unfair storyline where

00:40:38.510 --> 00:40:40.829
it's like well as long as you stay in the constant

00:40:40.829 --> 00:40:42.949
reproductive cycle which again we were lucky

00:40:42.949 --> 00:40:44.829
to have been able to do that you know three babies

00:40:44.829 --> 00:40:47.230
in five years yeah um as long as you stay there

00:40:47.230 --> 00:40:49.730
though then you get spared the pain and when

00:40:49.730 --> 00:40:51.900
it comes back Because again, it will come back

00:40:51.900 --> 00:40:54.579
monthly with your cycle and often in between.

00:40:55.079 --> 00:40:57.300
Then now it's something that you just kind of

00:40:57.300 --> 00:40:59.539
have to grit and bear it. No, absolutely not.

00:40:59.820 --> 00:41:02.380
Were you on the contraceptive pill during...

00:41:02.380 --> 00:41:05.380
It's a great question, so no. And I think this

00:41:05.380 --> 00:41:07.179
is actually one of the things that's really interesting

00:41:07.179 --> 00:41:10.440
when you think about women's understanding of

00:41:10.440 --> 00:41:12.800
their bodies and of the implications of the choices

00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:14.719
that we make or that other people make for us.

00:41:15.079 --> 00:41:19.699
So I... I got my period very early. I was an

00:41:19.699 --> 00:41:23.519
early bloomer perhaps and I knew immediately

00:41:23.519 --> 00:41:27.260
when I got it that I was in a lot of pain. A

00:41:27.260 --> 00:41:30.159
lot of women, girls, when they first have that

00:41:30.159 --> 00:41:32.860
experience, if they are fortunate to have a parent

00:41:32.860 --> 00:41:35.420
or a caregiver who takes them for advice from

00:41:35.420 --> 00:41:38.019
a medical professional, very often the first

00:41:38.019 --> 00:41:39.760
point of intervention is that they are offered

00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:42.170
some form of birth control. to deal with the

00:41:42.170 --> 00:41:44.389
symptoms. Because to be very clear, birth control

00:41:44.389 --> 00:41:46.070
is a hormonal suppressant. And if, for example,

00:41:46.070 --> 00:41:48.469
you have endometriosis, estrogen, which your

00:41:48.469 --> 00:41:50.929
body desperately needs, is actually the problem.

00:41:52.090 --> 00:41:54.070
estrogen is the thing that feeds endometriosis

00:41:54.070 --> 00:41:56.590
and causes it to flare and so the more estrogen

00:41:56.590 --> 00:41:58.670
your body has and in those early years in particular

00:41:58.670 --> 00:42:00.889
you have a wonderful supply because it's building

00:42:00.889 --> 00:42:02.769
your you know your bone density it's building

00:42:02.769 --> 00:42:04.710
your muscle mass it's building you know kind

00:42:04.710 --> 00:42:06.750
of your mental acuity and clarity there are so

00:42:06.750 --> 00:42:08.349
many things that are wonderful that it does for

00:42:08.349 --> 00:42:10.710
your body but for my body it's working against

00:42:10.710 --> 00:42:13.809
me so the suppression of estrogen in theory stops

00:42:13.809 --> 00:42:16.650
the symptom but what we don't talk about is if

00:42:16.650 --> 00:42:18.750
you are you know a teenager and you get on birth

00:42:18.750 --> 00:42:21.000
control and then you're on it for five years,

00:42:21.199 --> 00:42:23.320
10 years, 15 years before you decide perhaps

00:42:23.320 --> 00:42:24.980
that you want to get off it, whether it's for

00:42:24.980 --> 00:42:29.019
reproduction or otherwise, you have done something

00:42:29.019 --> 00:42:31.440
to your body that you don't always fully understand

00:42:31.440 --> 00:42:34.199
the implications of, meaning that the baseline

00:42:34.199 --> 00:42:36.780
of how your body experiences menstruation may

00:42:36.780 --> 00:42:39.400
be altered forever. Yeah. It's funny you say

00:42:39.400 --> 00:42:42.579
that because actually I... was put on um birth

00:42:42.579 --> 00:42:46.019
control pill when I was 14 because I had crazy

00:42:46.019 --> 00:42:50.019
ridiculously long like three months long heavy

00:42:50.019 --> 00:42:53.260
bleeding yeah non -stop and they were like oh

00:42:53.260 --> 00:42:55.099
okay well just you know we've tried a few things

00:42:55.099 --> 00:42:56.980
didn't work we'll get you on this this will help

00:42:56.980 --> 00:42:59.400
and of course it helped you know it basically

00:42:59.400 --> 00:43:01.400
controlled my period it made me have regular

00:43:01.400 --> 00:43:05.880
periods obviously not real periods yeah but ever

00:43:05.880 --> 00:43:08.510
since that I was on it for a long time And then

00:43:08.510 --> 00:43:10.650
I think it was when I came to Singapore, I decided

00:43:10.650 --> 00:43:13.329
to come off. And then that's when I realized

00:43:13.329 --> 00:43:16.250
that my periods are not normal. They're not regular.

00:43:16.570 --> 00:43:18.989
And ever since then, I've just had issue after

00:43:18.989 --> 00:43:22.530
issue. Now, obviously, it wasn't the pill itself.

00:43:22.949 --> 00:43:24.909
There's obviously, you know, loads of different

00:43:24.909 --> 00:43:27.170
factors that played into it to the point where

00:43:27.170 --> 00:43:31.719
I started hitting perimenopause at 37. And like

00:43:31.719 --> 00:43:33.780
you said, it wasn't the pill itself, but it was

00:43:33.780 --> 00:43:36.159
the pill itself that blinded you from the ability

00:43:36.159 --> 00:43:38.659
to have this data about your functioning body,

00:43:38.820 --> 00:43:40.539
which is your menstrual cycle. And the point

00:43:40.539 --> 00:43:42.539
is we're not demonizing the pill. I think birth

00:43:42.539 --> 00:43:45.900
control is an amazing, amazing tool for women

00:43:45.900 --> 00:43:48.480
to have choice and agency. But I think the thing

00:43:48.480 --> 00:43:50.320
that I would say when we're talking about kind

00:43:50.320 --> 00:43:52.760
of injecting a wee bit of feminist energy, you

00:43:52.760 --> 00:43:55.719
know, it's 2025 and there are no universally

00:43:55.719 --> 00:44:00.170
accepted medical metrics for menstruation. Yeah.

00:44:01.349 --> 00:44:03.690
They don't exist. They don't. So there is no

00:44:03.690 --> 00:44:07.210
version of what is normal. Now, I think what

00:44:07.210 --> 00:44:09.690
is normal is the wrong question. I think the

00:44:09.690 --> 00:44:12.389
question should be what is right in your body

00:44:12.389 --> 00:44:14.449
and if it doesn't feel right, how do you get

00:44:14.449 --> 00:44:17.570
to that place, right? So part of this for me

00:44:17.570 --> 00:44:20.329
is this amazing opportunity to say, okay, we

00:44:20.329 --> 00:44:22.769
don't know enough. You know, women's health and

00:44:22.769 --> 00:44:24.510
in particular menstrual health and reproductive

00:44:24.510 --> 00:44:26.650
health are one of the least funded and least

00:44:26.650 --> 00:44:29.860
researched. You know, it's sad to say this out

00:44:29.860 --> 00:44:32.179
loud. We only started doing research with menstrual

00:44:32.179 --> 00:44:37.880
blood in 2023. What? Two years ago? And the thing

00:44:37.880 --> 00:44:40.619
that's amazing about that is that even in that

00:44:40.619 --> 00:44:42.719
very short amount of time, what we've already

00:44:42.719 --> 00:44:45.760
been able to learn about what a rich source of

00:44:45.760 --> 00:44:48.559
biodata menstrual blood is, that, for example,

00:44:48.639 --> 00:44:51.800
it contains stem cells that are unlike the presence

00:44:51.800 --> 00:44:53.820
of stem cells anywhere else in the body. Wow.

00:44:54.159 --> 00:44:55.920
And you think about the fact that every month

00:44:55.920 --> 00:44:58.119
your body is effectively shedding a part of itself

00:44:58.119 --> 00:45:00.519
and rebuilding it every single month. So it has

00:45:00.519 --> 00:45:03.760
regenerative qualities that we have no idea how

00:45:03.760 --> 00:45:05.480
they could be applied to other parts of our body,

00:45:05.519 --> 00:45:08.179
to other diseases. I mean, we are at the absolute

00:45:08.179 --> 00:45:10.699
beginning of understanding the potential of this.

00:45:10.840 --> 00:45:14.960
My mind is blown right now. Wow. Yeah, it's incredible.

00:45:15.219 --> 00:45:17.440
Yeah. And again, just because we haven't had

00:45:17.440 --> 00:45:19.760
a way to study this or we haven't had investment

00:45:19.760 --> 00:45:22.619
to be able to study this, this access to information

00:45:22.619 --> 00:45:25.039
doesn't exist. And that is a problem. And so,

00:45:25.079 --> 00:45:27.159
you know, I look at this and I think, one, what

00:45:27.159 --> 00:45:29.320
an amazing opportunity for us to try and establish

00:45:29.320 --> 00:45:31.599
a baseline because every woman in the world,

00:45:31.659 --> 00:45:33.940
everyone who menstruates could benefit from at

00:45:33.940 --> 00:45:36.239
least understanding what's going on in my own

00:45:36.239 --> 00:45:38.860
body. And if you have those kind of insights,

00:45:39.059 --> 00:45:41.760
you have agency over what you choose to do next.

00:45:42.199 --> 00:45:44.460
Does this feel normal? Does it feel right? Do

00:45:44.460 --> 00:45:46.539
I need advice? Do I need an intervention? And

00:45:46.539 --> 00:45:48.539
I think those are things that often only happen

00:45:48.539 --> 00:45:51.019
when we are in our most extreme state of whatever

00:45:51.019 --> 00:45:53.960
the issue potentially might be. Can we talk about

00:45:53.960 --> 00:45:56.679
how no one prepares you for how your skin changes

00:45:56.679 --> 00:45:59.340
in your 40s? Honestly, one day it's fine. The

00:45:59.340 --> 00:46:02.559
next it's dull, dry and showing every single

00:46:02.559 --> 00:46:04.599
emotion you've ever felt. That's why I've actually

00:46:04.599 --> 00:46:07.460
been loving Love Indus. Their skincare actually

00:46:07.460 --> 00:46:09.920
feels like it's doing something. It's not just

00:46:09.920 --> 00:46:12.539
sitting on your face and looking sticky. It blends

00:46:12.539 --> 00:46:14.699
South Asian ingredients like ashwagandha and

00:46:14.699 --> 00:46:17.219
vegan ghee with proper New York dermatology tech.

00:46:17.400 --> 00:46:20.019
It's luxurious, but also very results driven.

00:46:20.519 --> 00:46:22.800
Their line limiter is especially good if you're

00:46:22.800 --> 00:46:25.340
starting, like me, to notice lip or laugh lines.

00:46:25.539 --> 00:46:28.340
People compare it to Botox, which I would happily

00:46:28.340 --> 00:46:30.639
take after all those needles in my face. And

00:46:30.639 --> 00:46:32.579
our listeners get the highest discount they offer,

00:46:32.760 --> 00:46:38.699
21 % off with code TFF at lovindus .com. Plus,

00:46:38.739 --> 00:46:41.019
they ship free to Singapore, which seems like

00:46:41.019 --> 00:46:43.780
a very rare little treat. And yes, we earn commission

00:46:43.780 --> 00:46:46.360
when you use our code, so don't forget to support

00:46:46.360 --> 00:46:51.190
the show by using code TFF. Well, again, a lot

00:46:51.190 --> 00:46:53.070
of information to digest there. We're going to

00:46:53.070 --> 00:46:54.690
lighten it up a little bit. Yes, ma 'am. One

00:46:54.690 --> 00:46:56.389
of our favorite segments here on the 40s Formula,

00:46:56.690 --> 00:46:59.170
Hot or Hype. Okay. So we're going to present

00:46:59.170 --> 00:47:02.369
you kind of some hot topics and, you know, we'll

00:47:02.369 --> 00:47:05.550
say corporate world adjacent. You tell us if

00:47:05.550 --> 00:47:07.710
you think it's hot, meaning yes, on it, about

00:47:07.710 --> 00:47:10.130
it. Okay. Or it's hype. Okay. Nah, overblown

00:47:10.130 --> 00:47:12.389
too much. Okay. And you can qualify. Okay. You

00:47:12.389 --> 00:47:14.110
can qualify. So this isn't just a one word and

00:47:14.110 --> 00:47:16.809
then we move on. All right. Girl boss culture.

00:47:17.210 --> 00:47:21.280
Hype. Hype. Total hype. I think that the idea

00:47:21.280 --> 00:47:23.980
that you have to boss in a certain way. Why is

00:47:23.980 --> 00:47:26.179
it girls are not women? Why do we have to caveat

00:47:26.179 --> 00:47:28.440
say that's a female doctor or a female leader?

00:47:28.659 --> 00:47:30.579
At some point, I would like that to not be a

00:47:30.579 --> 00:47:32.440
thing. And we got to do a lot of work before

00:47:32.440 --> 00:47:35.219
we get to that place. Yes. Oh, I love it. Okay.

00:47:35.539 --> 00:47:41.260
Morning wellness routines. Hype. Good. I feel

00:47:41.260 --> 00:47:43.849
the same. Tell me why. Well, I'm a mother of

00:47:43.849 --> 00:47:45.590
three very young kids. Who has time in the morning

00:47:45.590 --> 00:47:47.070
for anything but getting them out the door dressed

00:47:47.070 --> 00:47:50.150
and, you know. And who has routine in the morning?

00:47:50.230 --> 00:47:52.369
I mean, like every morning in our house is a

00:47:52.369 --> 00:47:54.869
different version of chaos. So the only thing

00:47:54.869 --> 00:47:56.429
routine about it is that it's nuts. I mean, it

00:47:56.429 --> 00:47:59.829
does get better because I feel. So for me, I

00:47:59.829 --> 00:48:03.510
am going to say like morning is the only time

00:48:03.510 --> 00:48:06.590
I can have a routine. And I like my routine,

00:48:06.730 --> 00:48:08.510
maybe because I'm a morning person. Maybe, you

00:48:08.510 --> 00:48:11.280
know. And obviously the boys are now self -sufficient.

00:48:11.400 --> 00:48:12.920
I will go in there to wake them up, but they

00:48:12.920 --> 00:48:14.280
can put their own clothes on. They'll brush their

00:48:14.280 --> 00:48:16.039
own teeth. They'll wash their own bum. You know,

00:48:16.059 --> 00:48:18.639
I don't have to worry. How many diapers? Zero.

00:48:20.039 --> 00:48:22.139
I know, it's like you're living the dream. Yeah,

00:48:22.300 --> 00:48:24.619
yeah. Tell me more about your magical unicorn

00:48:24.619 --> 00:48:27.820
world. All right. Hot or hype? The four -day

00:48:27.820 --> 00:48:33.380
work week. Hot. Oh, I like that. So I think that

00:48:33.380 --> 00:48:35.300
there's a false equivalency with the idea, the

00:48:35.300 --> 00:48:38.190
amount of time that you put into a thing. determines

00:48:38.190 --> 00:48:40.110
the value of the output that you give to that

00:48:40.110 --> 00:48:42.610
thing. I think that the work week was designed

00:48:42.610 --> 00:48:46.329
many, many moons ago for a very specific target

00:48:46.329 --> 00:48:48.789
set of professionals that may not necessarily

00:48:48.789 --> 00:48:52.630
include this room and or people outside of it

00:48:52.630 --> 00:48:55.269
that look and feel like us. So I think that the

00:48:55.269 --> 00:48:59.090
idea of actually hyper -focused, laser -focused,

00:48:59.369 --> 00:49:01.769
hyper -efficient, there's so many ways that you

00:49:01.769 --> 00:49:03.849
can do this. And I say this as a perfect example

00:49:03.849 --> 00:49:06.900
to other mothers of three. There was a time in

00:49:06.900 --> 00:49:08.559
your life when you didn't have children and I

00:49:08.559 --> 00:49:11.260
give this in the corporate context. I was asked

00:49:11.260 --> 00:49:13.599
to do a presentation. I could labour over the

00:49:13.599 --> 00:49:16.280
joy of that presentation, those slides. I could

00:49:16.280 --> 00:49:18.519
perfect, you know, perfectly justified to the

00:49:18.519 --> 00:49:20.420
right, you know, all the colours worked, you

00:49:20.420 --> 00:49:21.719
know, I'm going to agonise over those words,

00:49:21.780 --> 00:49:23.519
let's sleep on it, think about it again. It could

00:49:23.519 --> 00:49:25.599
be a week's worth of work, a month's worth of

00:49:25.599 --> 00:49:27.360
work before it was perfect and it was out the

00:49:27.360 --> 00:49:29.860
door. And now oftentimes the request is you've

00:49:29.860 --> 00:49:31.789
got an hour. Because that's all I've got between

00:49:31.789 --> 00:49:34.829
pickup and, you know, something else. So one

00:49:34.829 --> 00:49:36.750
of the things about motherhood is it forces you

00:49:36.750 --> 00:49:39.889
to be incredibly focused. You become an efficiency

00:49:39.889 --> 00:49:43.530
master because you have no choice. But my goodness,

00:49:43.610 --> 00:49:45.449
if that skill was valued the way that it actually

00:49:45.449 --> 00:49:48.329
shows up, more women who are working mothers

00:49:48.329 --> 00:49:50.860
would be in more positions of authority. You're

00:49:50.860 --> 00:49:52.840
absolutely correct. I was just listening to a

00:49:52.840 --> 00:49:54.519
podcast and I'm terrible and I can't remember

00:49:54.519 --> 00:49:57.619
the doctor's name, but a doctor and she was saying

00:49:57.619 --> 00:50:00.159
what, you know, exactly what you're saying about

00:50:00.159 --> 00:50:01.980
like, you know, agonizing over every last graphic

00:50:01.980 --> 00:50:03.940
on your PowerPoint slider. She was saying that

00:50:03.940 --> 00:50:06.300
she was invited as a panelist. And then when

00:50:06.300 --> 00:50:08.380
she showed up to the event, they were like, oh,

00:50:08.460 --> 00:50:10.960
it's actually a TED Talk format. And you're the

00:50:10.960 --> 00:50:13.500
TED talk. Oh, I know. It was the obesity doctor,

00:50:13.579 --> 00:50:15.739
right? Yes. Yes. God, I've forgotten her name

00:50:15.739 --> 00:50:18.920
as well. God, we're terrible. That's always our

00:50:18.920 --> 00:50:21.099
excuse. We'll put it in the show now. But yeah,

00:50:21.159 --> 00:50:23.539
she was saying she was like, so I had literally

00:50:23.539 --> 00:50:26.360
five minutes while the previous panel was finishing

00:50:26.360 --> 00:50:29.840
up to put together a 15 minute TED talk. Of my

00:50:29.840 --> 00:50:31.699
own accord. And she was like, you just got to

00:50:31.699 --> 00:50:33.079
get it done. And I bet you should kick butt.

00:50:33.159 --> 00:50:35.059
She did because it went viral. No, no, no. It

00:50:35.059 --> 00:50:39.519
went viral. It went completely viral. So she's

00:50:39.519 --> 00:50:43.900
the obesity doctor who said that obesity is genetic,

00:50:44.039 --> 00:50:45.800
but it went viral for the wrong reason because

00:50:45.800 --> 00:50:47.920
people were like, it's not. After her about it.

00:50:47.960 --> 00:50:50.099
Yeah. You know, it's not genetic. But actually,

00:50:50.139 --> 00:50:51.940
if you listen to the whole thing. It's incredible.

00:50:52.179 --> 00:50:56.280
It's great. All right. Hotter hype. The motherhood

00:50:56.280 --> 00:51:01.570
penalty. Hot. Sadly hot, isn't it? It is the

00:51:01.570 --> 00:51:04.610
real deal. And I think even organisations that

00:51:04.610 --> 00:51:07.050
have the very best of intentions and real policies

00:51:07.050 --> 00:51:10.789
don't always understand that this exists and

00:51:10.789 --> 00:51:12.690
shows up in ways that they can't necessarily

00:51:12.690 --> 00:51:16.570
predict or protect working mums from. And to

00:51:16.570 --> 00:51:19.070
some degree I categorise also working parents

00:51:19.070 --> 00:51:22.030
because dads that make different choices also

00:51:22.030 --> 00:51:24.889
have impact. But for mums it's a real thing.

00:51:25.050 --> 00:51:29.940
Yeah, it is. Last one. Hot or hype? Women only

00:51:29.940 --> 00:51:33.619
networking. So networks available to only women.

00:51:34.940 --> 00:51:39.559
Hot. Yay. What about podcast films? Podcasts

00:51:39.559 --> 00:51:42.039
that are only open to women. So I will say this,

00:51:42.300 --> 00:51:45.139
you know, I'm very intentional with my time and

00:51:45.139 --> 00:51:49.179
I love deeply supporting and uplifting women,

00:51:49.260 --> 00:51:51.440
women and girls. It's something that I draw a

00:51:51.440 --> 00:51:53.420
tremendous amount of joy from and I see as being

00:51:53.420 --> 00:51:55.980
a gift that I can give. I think that when you

00:51:55.980 --> 00:51:57.719
do women -only things, there's a power that comes

00:51:57.719 --> 00:51:59.780
from that. There's a safety in a community. But

00:51:59.780 --> 00:52:01.760
I also think that if you exclude men from every

00:52:01.760 --> 00:52:03.639
conversation, they cannot be the true allies

00:52:03.639 --> 00:52:06.079
and partners they need to be for us to make the

00:52:06.079 --> 00:52:08.000
kind of progress, the lasting progress that we

00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:10.280
actually need. That's the path to gender equality.

00:52:10.659 --> 00:52:12.420
We're not going to get there if it's just women

00:52:12.420 --> 00:52:14.820
solving the problem for women. You're absolutely

00:52:14.820 --> 00:52:16.639
right. You need the investment from everyone

00:52:16.639 --> 00:52:19.179
to solve these problems. Yeah. Well, Gal, we've

00:52:19.179 --> 00:52:21.000
had a lot to think about today. And again, a

00:52:21.000 --> 00:52:22.900
beautiful personal story from you. We thank you

00:52:22.900 --> 00:52:25.449
for that. But we would love the benefit of your

00:52:25.449 --> 00:52:27.869
expertise and the question that we ask everyone

00:52:27.869 --> 00:52:31.849
on this show. What is your 40s formula? What

00:52:31.849 --> 00:52:34.630
is the nugget, the golden nugget of advice you

00:52:34.630 --> 00:52:36.869
can provide for our audience about how to thrive

00:52:36.869 --> 00:52:39.929
in this decade? So I am going to borrow words

00:52:39.929 --> 00:52:43.469
from my favorite poet. Mary Oliver has a piece

00:52:43.469 --> 00:52:47.190
called Sometimes. And it goes, instructions to

00:52:47.190 --> 00:52:52.650
live a life, pay attention, be astonished, and

00:52:52.650 --> 00:52:56.579
tell about it. You have to pay attention to everything

00:52:56.579 --> 00:53:00.519
but especially to yourself. Especially in your

00:53:00.519 --> 00:53:03.739
40s as women, we are so accustomed to putting

00:53:03.739 --> 00:53:06.539
everyone else and everything else first and it's

00:53:06.539 --> 00:53:08.480
time that we give ourselves the space that we

00:53:08.480 --> 00:53:12.719
deserve and the time that we need. Be astonished.

00:53:12.719 --> 00:53:14.800
For me, one of the greatest lessons my children

00:53:14.800 --> 00:53:16.599
have taught me is to see the world with wonder.

00:53:16.860 --> 00:53:19.260
Yeah. And we lose that so quickly as we grow

00:53:19.260 --> 00:53:22.260
up. How can I come into things with the same

00:53:22.260 --> 00:53:24.179
lens that they have about all the possibilities

00:53:24.179 --> 00:53:27.000
in front of me, not just all the problems? And

00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:28.980
hold on to that for as long as I can so that

00:53:28.980 --> 00:53:31.400
I can see, you know, that the world actually

00:53:31.400 --> 00:53:33.480
can be a great place and I can have a contributive

00:53:33.480 --> 00:53:36.980
role in that. And then tell about it. As women

00:53:36.980 --> 00:53:39.860
in particular, so often we think that our story

00:53:39.860 --> 00:53:42.420
is not going to be relevant or helpful or additive

00:53:42.420 --> 00:53:45.239
or valuable to somebody else. But every time

00:53:45.239 --> 00:53:47.800
you share... You share lived experience. You

00:53:47.800 --> 00:53:50.119
share difficult things. You share beautiful things.

00:53:50.239 --> 00:53:53.239
What you are teaching people intentionally, generously,

00:53:53.440 --> 00:53:55.980
is that life is for living, but also that we

00:53:55.980 --> 00:53:57.840
all get to be part of helping each other have

00:53:57.840 --> 00:54:00.940
a better experience. Oh, my God. That is just

00:54:00.940 --> 00:54:03.940
beautiful. And you're such an incredible storyteller.

00:54:04.039 --> 00:54:06.239
Thank you for sharing the power of your story,

00:54:06.360 --> 00:54:08.659
the authenticity of your experience, and just

00:54:08.659 --> 00:54:10.539
being with us today, Amy. Thank you so, so much.

00:54:10.599 --> 00:54:12.440
You're so welcome. Thank you. It was an amazing

00:54:12.440 --> 00:54:46.079
conversation. Thank you. the day I'm just saying

00:54:46.079 --> 00:54:48.059
I know what you get out of it