You know that moment when you walk out of the
salon feeling fabulous and then three hours later
your hair has given up on life? If you're in
your 40s and stuck between I want a fresh look
and I don't want to regret these bangs for six
months, this episode is for you. We're talking
scalp detoxing, climate -proof styles, Gen Z
eye rolls, and whether going gray can actually
be a power move. So let's get into it. because
your hair deserves better than dry ends and dated
advice. And if you feel more fabulous after this
episode, why not share it with a friend and subscribe
to the 40s Formula for more great tips. Tony
Ovenden is a London -born hairstylist and the
founder of Love Hair, a sustainable boutique
salon concept with locations in Hong Kong and
Singapore. With over two decades of experience
behind the chair, Tony brings a refreshingly
honest and health -first approach to beauty,
one that prioritizes scalp wellness, ecoconscious
choices, and empowering women to feel confident
in their hair at every age. As a business owner,
mother, and creative force, Tony is passionate
about helping women reinvent their look without
losing themselves, proving that great hair doesn't
have to mean high maintenance or high toxins.
The 40s Formula. The 40s Formula. The 40s Formula.
Hosted by Jasmine Dillon, integrated health strategist
specializing in gut health, hormones and midlife
well -being and amanda lim director of lift clinic
and a leading expert in female strength and metabolism
name one of cna's top podcasts and winner of
the 2025 asia podcast awards in the best health
and wellness podcast category the 40s formula
is your no fluff science meets real life guide
to thriving in your 40s So welcome, Toni. Thank
you for joining us today. Yeah, thank you for
having me. It's my first podcast, so. Well, we
welcome you. We are proud to have you as the
first podcast. That makes our day. Talk to me
about age appropriate hair. Is that something
that even exists in 2025? Is that a rule? I think
rather than age appropriate hair, it's more about
what's appropriate for you and personalizing
it to you. So I don't think we should put ourselves
in boxes or categories because I think sometimes.
um as women it's kind of feeling like how you
feel on the inside comes out on the outside and
if you go outside you have power dressing and
you have all the you know the days that you're
on your period and you feel rubbish then you
just want to put jeans and a big baggy top on
so it's good yeah i think it's it relates to
the same in hair on those days where you just
want to scrape it up yeah yeah like like today
and it was you're busy so lovely Yeah, you're
busy, but there's scraping up and then there's
like a power pony. So putting it up isn't always
like a negative thing. And I think we were discussing
that earlier. You were saying, okay, you've worn
your hair down today. Yeah, I was apologizing
to Tony for having, you know, trying to do something
nice for her. Yeah, but I think. But wearing
it up can also be powerful. It just depends how
you put it up and the effort you've put into
it. Yeah, my sister always says, because my norm
is either the pony or like a high bun, but not
a cute, nice, you know, like messy bun. I mean,
it's messy, but it's not a cute messy bun. It's
like a messy, messy bun. And she calls me a trunchbull.
She's like, oh, you've got your trunchbull going
on. Oh, first word. I know. But it's probably
because I haven't really put effort in. It literally
is just up and twisted round. Those messy buns
look amazing, but it doesn't feel like low effort.
Well, think about how many names that one style
has, you know, throughout the different stages
of your life. You've got mumbun. Yeah. Even that
one style, it's the same style, evolves with
a name related to that stage of your life and
how it makes you feel and what it's connected
to. So it always comes back to how you're feeling
and how you want to portray yourself to the world
and go outside. So I say your hair is attached
to your face and you wear it every single day.
So true. If you're going to invest in anything
related to image, hair is a good place to start.
Because I know for myself, if I go out and I've
just scraped it up and it's greasy, I feel slightly
less confident and I kind of don't want to run
into people. You know, you have a different almost
like feeling about yourself, whereas you feel
put together. And a lot of women who come to.
The salon and they talk about, I just want to
feel put together. I don't want to go outside
and feel. disheveled you know um i think it affects
your confidence levels and how you're presenting
yourself um so it can really help and i think
mum buns are great it's just again like learning
what is a quick tip for you to make it look a
bit more polished so what is that quick tip if
i don't want to look super messy but like legitimately
there's no way i can put waves in my hair every
day yeah we turn it into the power bun Rather
than a power pony, you're just making sure it's
sleek. You're using a bit of product to make
sure you don't have the fuzzy flyaways. Do I
have fuzzy flyaways today? Not at all. You don't.
It's so sleek. You've done a great job. You've
nailed it today. Today. Only today. So it's just
like the small details that make it look put
together and purposeful rather than I've just
thrown my hair in a bun. I'm embarrassed to admit
this. Maybe I shouldn't be. Maybe I should. But,
you know, the when you. When you watch the show,
I think it was called Toddlers and Tiaras. Yeah.
When they always have those really sleek buns.
Super sleek. And they use the hair stick. Yeah.
Sister girl went and bought some hair stick.
Okay, what's that? And that thing is amazing.
What's hair stick? It is literally, it looks
like deodorant stick. Okay. And it just slicks
back the formways so that everything just stays
in place. But does it make your hair look greasy?
No, it does not. I mean, it's like for kids.
Oh. And I guess everything goes back to... your
your individual hair because everyone has different
hair type what is right for one person is not
going to be the same product that's right for
somebody else so I think it's getting the advice
specifically to you as well and that's what your
hairdresser will do they'll give you the the
advice and the consultation to make sure it's
personalized okay talking about personalized
I'm I'm just gonna say it I've been going through
the gray blending yes because I've got too many
greys. I can't keep up with the bloody roots.
It just takes way too long. I started it last
year. You can see it from here. I love this colour
here. But the issue that I have is when the roots
start coming through. So I'm using a blending
brush in between getting the grey blending done.
It's long. I mean, I like it when it's fresh
out of the salon, as obviously everyone does.
Like, what are your thoughts on it? Do you think
that this is a good move? Like when you do start
to go grey? Yeah. Because having those like,
you know, the block. The block of roots. Well,
I think that's the vicious cycle people end up
going into. So one, I think it's, again, individual.
Some people like to embrace their greys. Some
people are happy to see a few greys shimmering
through. And some people just want 100 % coverage.
But as you get greyer. that becomes more challenging,
which is probably where you were at. Yeah. Where
then you have kind of the harsh regrowth. Yeah.
And then you become a slave to your own roots.
And I think that's what becomes really challenging
is that you have to then have your roots done.
Some people come in every three weeks. Oh, no.
Mine is like every two weeks. So now, because
I'm just obviously going for the grey blending,
I've got this thing called the blending brush.
Yeah. So every, I don't know, couple of days,
I'll just re... But it's a washout thing because
the issue I don't want to fall into, which is
the mistake I made, was when I started the grey
blending initially and then decided to not do
it anymore, I started using permanent hair colour,
which meant that it ruins the colour of the hair.
So now I've got some orange bits. So I need to
grow that out and have like a non -permanent
thing in between. Is the blending brush like
a henna situation? It's a commitment. I think
that's the thing. colouring greys there is a
commitment involved so it's never low it's never
super low maintenance but I think grey blending
the goal is to make it slightly less low maintenance
than having to have your roots done every three
weeks so what I would say is at the beginning
it's a bigger job because you've got to go through
that process of taking out the demarcation line
of the permanent colour because that's the thing
that's you know, you're ending up committing
to. And then getting used to seeing the greys
at the same time. So getting people kind of comfortable
of not having that kind of zebra stripe that's
there. But being like, actually, I don't mind
seeing some greys. I don't have to completely
cover them. And that's kind of empowering in
a way. It's like, again, it's how society sees
you, how you see yourself, what makes you still
feel confident. Because some people just hate
them. They don't want to see them. And permanent
colour is the right solution. And some people
who might have high power jobs or might be filmed
a lot, lots of different reasons. They're like,
I don't want to see any grey. Yeah, I mean, it's
hard. And then I've got my kids who are like,
Mummy, why is it that you've got so many more
greys than Daddy? I'm like, well, I've got more
hair than him. That is the correct answer, by
the way. I think the first question was about
age. And I think rather than age appropriate,
it's personality appropriate. So take age away
from it. There's not one style anymore either.
Like once upon a time, you'd fit into a box of
like, you know, you're a goth or you're trendy
or you're sporty. Whereas now everyone kind of
goes between those. Like I know for me on a daily
basis, I don't have one particular style. So
I think now people evolve and it's more fun.
And I think you can have more fun with your hair
rather than it being like, oh, I'm this age,
so I can only have this. So given that we've
talked a lot about age appropriateness doesn't
really exist then because it obviously is personal
appropriate. And we've also talked about kind
of effort. Right. Like what is the difference
or what is the line between I'm trying too hard.
I need to have a perfect blowout every single
day. Yeah. And I'm stuck in the past or stuck
looking like you said, like women don't want
to look unkempt, messy, you know, like out of
out of source. What is the stylish but timeless
look that we're all looking for? I think the
main things are having healthy hair because if
your hair isn't healthy, it looks rubbish. No
matter what you do to it, if it looks frazzled
on the ends or it looks dry, it doesn't matter
what else you're doing to it, then it's not going
to present well. So healthy hair in any style
is really important. I think if you think about...
how everybody is evolving and now we have social
media and everything everyone is influenced and
trying to stay young forever so i think actually
people are less likely to be stuck in the past
anymore it's rare that you see someone who's
had the same hairstyle for 20 years i think people
are more open to changing yeah the only thing
i'd say is when you're most people experiment
when they're younger In their younger years,
they're like, oh, I've tried this, I've had that,
and you learn what works and doesn't work for
you. So as you get older, you're less likely
to make the same big mistakes that you made when
you were younger. And for our listeners that
are younger, experiment now, ladies, while you
have youth and beauty on your side. Well, that's
the fun of it, right? It's the fun of hair and
style. I think it should always be an involvement
throughout your life. You mentioned healthy hair
as one of the keys to kind of ageless and timeless
hair. And I think that's a beautiful segue into
one of our favorite segments, which is Fuel Your
40s, sponsored by The Meat Club. The Meat Club
has given us a question for you, my dear, in
your area of expertise. How do you feel that
protein -forward nutrition can support healthy
hair? And are there specific foods that you recommend
for healthy hair? Well, I think everything goes
back to internal, doesn't it? When you're going
through menopause or perimenopause, your estrogen
and progesterone levels are dropping, which then
affects the pH level and the health of your scalp,
which then affects your hair. So internally,
as they're dropping, I guess it's good to eat
foods that are, I know seeds and things like
that. I think protein. I mean, obviously I'm
not a nutritionist, but I think it's just, it
all comes back to. all the symptoms you might
be facing through menopause are all fueled by
sleep, diet, medication. So all those things
still come into it because part of perimenopause
and menopause is you start to potentially have
hair loss, a dry scalp, more product sensitivity,
and then all of those things that can help come
from within. Yeah, I know it. Like since going
through it. Okay, so a couple of things. The
menopause, being in Singapore, my hair is a fucking
mess. Like, you know, the humidity and then obviously
now the dry. I used to have really silky hair.
Like I could not put a rubber band in my hair
because it would just slip out. Now it's like,
you know, just it's there and the hair's frizzy.
I have to use a hair straightener. What can we
do in this climate, in this age range? Like help
me sort my hair out. So I think. A healthy scalp
because everything comes from the scalp. So we're
talking about, okay, the internal things, but
then where does the hair grow from? So making
sure that you have a healthy scalp. And then
dependent on the climax, obviously here it's
humid. So hair gets frizzy quite often. Is that...
There are things like smoothing treatments. So,
again, if you want to have that well -turned
-out look and you don't have to battle the frizz
every day, then a smoothing treatment is always
useful. Do they damage the hair? Yeah. Is that
keratin? Is that a keyword? A whole range of
products out there. So there's thousands of different
products. We choose to use Behave because it's
chemical free. It's from a natural keratin from
sheep's wool. So you don't have all those. It
doesn't have formaldehyde or any of those toxic
chemicals in it. And it just coats the hair?
And it just coats the hair. So it's not meant
to go on the scalp. It's purely for the hair.
So that's something that's coating it. And the
hair is made of keratin. So effectively you're
putting something that the hair is made of. on
top, outside to seal it in. And that's what keeps
it smooth. Because then you've got the grey hairs,
haven't you? The ones that are like wiry and
pop up. Because that's the other challenge with
greys. They have a different texture. So that's
why they stand out from the rest of your hair
because they're more wiry and coarse and then
they have no pigmentation left. So that's why
they're harder. So there's also some science
behind obviously the scalp and hair and going
through the hormone changes. And part of the
grey hair has lost all of its pigmentation. So
all the cuticles close and then it becomes kind
of harder and coarser. And sometimes even when
colouring greys, the colour will cover. But over
time, the greys become more resistant. And even
the permanent colour sometimes doesn't always
colour. So basically gray blending is inevitable.
It's going to have to turn into gray hair. Yeah.
And you've talked so much about scalp wellness.
And I think that's something we don't think about.
We think about healthy hair, like you said. We
think about keratin treatments to smooth the
hair. But what are we missing about the scalp?
So I think scalp is a lot of people overwash
their hair in Singapore because it's hot and
people exercise a lot. That's so weird because
every time I've been somewhere, they will say.
you need to wash your hair every day. I'm like,
I haven't got the time to fucking wash my hair
every day. Yeah, don't come at the reality. But
so you're saying actually that over -washing
can be a problem for your scalp? Well, your scalp
produces natural sebum, which will moisturise
your hair. So if you're washing it every day,
it doesn't have a chance to actually secrete
down the hair, and that's why your hair gets
greasy. That's the natural oils which are doing...
your body's natural job of moisturizing the hair
itself. So if you wash it, some people wash it
twice a day. Yeah, that's very common here. It
just does not have the chance. So that's why
we need our slick back ponies and our buns because
actually... I'm just giving my hair a treatment
is what you're saying. We just utilize the grease
and let it just have that day where you do slick
it back and you just give it a rest from washing
it. Second thing here is the water's really hard.
So it's got lots of chemicals in it. And you
can go onto the government websites, you can
see what's in different countries' water. And
here it's very high in chemicals, high in chlorine.
So a filter is really, really useful because
it just builds up in your shower. Natalie Dow
uses one of those. I remember her years ago telling
me it was a game changer. And is this the sort
of thing that, because I remember seeing people
getting like these vitamin C shower heads. You
can just buy them on Lazada, anywhere. Yeah,
I mean, just I don't think it even matters because
there's so many out there. And I did go into
a rabbit hole of doing some research when I first
moved here. Honestly, even as a hairdresser,
I was like I couldn't really differentiate rhyme
or reason which was better than the other. It
kind of was like I think just anything that's
going to filter out the toxins that come from
the water. Give us like the literal Google term
or, you know, Lizada search term like mineral
filtration. Just shower filter head. Okay. Shower
filter head, listeners. It's three words. Loads
will come up. Okay. Wow. There's so much choice.
That is what I'm doing this afternoon. It's 100
% going to change my world. And anything is better
than nothing. Yeah. Okay. So I think, especially
for blondes, blondes tend to go dull over time.
And sometimes I'll do someone's hair and it's
all bright and creamy and lovely. And then they
come back and I'm like, what's happened to your
hair in between? Blondes tend to suck up. everything
around them anyway because obviously it's light
so it's a bit like if you stood on the side of
a motorway in a white t -shirt it would go gray
yeah um and it's the same with blonde hair it
kind of sucks up all the things around it so
um but the water is a big part of that so filtering
definitely helps what about these like blue shampoos
purple shampoos i know that What other colours
there are? Do they help as well? They can help.
So specifically a purple shampoo helps yellow.
So if your blonde is going yellow, then a purple
shampoo. But overusing it will also build up
on the hair. So we always instruct our clients,
don't start even using them until you're blonde.
Like your tone is fading out and you start to
see the yellow coming in. And then once a week
is usually enough. Some people use it every wash
and then they end up with dark, dull, Almost
like grey, flat hair. Because ash takes away
light. So it makes blondes look really dull.
So overusing it, actually. creates a problem
for the next time you're coloring it so you've
got to be really careful that validates me by
the way because that's exactly what i do it's
like when i got fresh hair i just let her rip
right because i just got it toned up and everything
and then toward the end when the brassiness does
start to set in then yeah i do once a week with
my purple shampoo and it's not cheap by the way
so it's not something that you want to use every
day just for the end my kids know because of
course it's like it's like my kids have laser
focus on it in the bathtub they're like i want
to squeeze this because it's bright purple i
was like you don't Mama's purple shampoo. Okay?
They know. They know. This time of year gets
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you're big on sustainability, right? And I think
that is not, to be honest, that is not something
I think all of us think about with our hair care.
We think about what works, what keeps the frizz
down, what keeps the curls in, whatever it may
be. But we don't think about sustainability.
And I think part of it is not because we don't
want to, because we truly do not know what to
look for. How do we assess a product to know
if it's sustainable, if it's non -toxic? Like
what should we be looking for? Well, I think
there's different, you've got the... ingredients
and then obviously how they're sourced so the
packaging that the brands that you choose to
use um so we choose brands that are aligned with
our ethos um but i think as a kind of consumer
uh you're kind of looking at because there's
lots of buzzwords around it sometimes can get
confusing and every brand now has like a sulfate
free version um because they want to jump on
the bandwagon but then what's replacing that
Another kind of buzzword of people they don't
want to have in their products is silicones.
So silicones, but you can get natural silicones.
So it's making sure, is it a naturally derived
silicone or is it a synthetic silicone? Because
again, that would just build up on your hair
and create a barrier. for you, which makes it
dull. And then harder for when you are using
the expensive products that you've purchased,
they can't penetrate into the hair because they've
got so much buildup of silicone on top. So yeah,
so choosing brands that fit and like really reading
the ingredients list. There are apps now that
you can use where you can scan your product.
Is that the Think Dirty or something? Yeah, Think
Dirty's one. And then it tells you exactly what's
in it, if it's red, orange or green. So that's
really useful. um from a sustainable factor for
us it's more also about uh reducing our waste
so we just do small things like we use the gloves
that we we use every day and we wash them and
we dry them so it's all the small things i think
that really make the difference um but as a consumer
you're also thinking about um how can i like
can i take this back can i refill it there's
so many different aspects of being environmentally
conscious or low chemical and i love that in
makeup too i mean a lot of makeup brands now
are doing the refillables yeah and it makes so
much sense because i mean honestly you've got
these beautiful compacts yeah and you almost
feel guilty throwing it away i don't want to
throw it away but yeah what do i do with it yeah
i need to have a refill option we have a program
where if you bring back your empties we'll give
you a discount on your next purchase you like
the mac of hair into uh the recycling rather
than just going to the normal waste oh amazing
that's so cool and that's something that business
owners can do right is incentivize your customers
to kind of follow your sustainable practices
i love that yeah i was given um some shampoo
and it was the powdered shampoo yes what's your
thoughts on that i use the powder body wash which
i love um i think for hair so you have two brackets
of hair products there'll be You can go into
iHerb as an example and you can buy something
that's very natural. But is it a salon standard
product that's actually going to do, because
when I've used them, because I've tried everything,
because we're sourcing things for the salon,
I want to always make sure I've kind of tried
everything there is out there. And they just
leave my hair feeling really dry. Yeah. And they're
not giving the hair the things that it needs
to actually feel good, but also use less chemicals.
So I think when you go to standard of salon quality
products, then you're going to get a good result
at the same time as being able to reduce the
chemical load. And that's good to know, because
I think some of us like we will try the natural
products. Like I always think about natural deodorant.
Like, it just does not work for me. To be fair,
I'm still on the search for natural deodorant.
I've been searching for like 10 years. Yeah,
so listeners, if you have any, leave it in the
comments if you've got a good deodorant that
actually works. It works until you exercise and
it's like, fuck now. Or until you walk from Starbucks
to here, for example. Well, because I work. With
my arms over people all day, so I can't risk
smelling. You definitely can't risk it. So you've
seen thousands of clients in your salons. Can
you share with us an over 40 transformation where
someone came into your salon, just feeling exactly
like what you said in the beginning of this interview,
you know, just kind of like, oh, I don't look
put together. And then walked out of your salon,
a brand new woman. So many. I think it's really
going back to that consultation aspect, analysing
their face shape and making sure you have a haircut
that's going to complement your face shape. We
always say the perfect face shape is oval. So
whatever your haircut does, you're meant to leave
the illusion of an oval behind. That's interesting.
So, for example, I've got a square face. So for
me, the width of my forehead and my jaw is the
same, which makes it square. So I wave my hair
quite a lot because it softens the edges of the
square. wear my hair slightly offside because
if I wear it in the centre then it accentuates
that. Whereas what I do is if it's slightly on
the side it takes away this corner effectively.
Oh that's so clever. So you're always leaving
the illusion behind as much as you can of an
oval silhouette. through the shape if you are
listening to this on spotify or apple by the
way go listen to it on youtube now so you can
see what what tony just did with her hair amazing
and same if you've got round face you don't want
a round haircut because that's going to make
it look rounder you want something that's actually
got lines but it takes off the roundness so that
would be like a sleek straight look doesn't necessarily
have to be straight okay but it just needs to
be a square haircut so actually a really square
blunt bob which most women, 95 % of women will
come and sit in the chair and say, I've got a
round face. And that's how women see themselves.
Everyone thinks I have a round face. And actually
when you break it down for them, most people
don't have a round face. Interesting. And then
they go, I can't have this haircut because it's
going to make my face look rounder. I'm like,
you don't even have a round face. So it's interesting
how we always perceive ourselves because when
we look at our own face, we just see. Our face.
All right, Tony, what do you see in these faces?
Yeah. What we got going on? I think you actually
have the perfect oval face. I always thought
I had a long face, like a horse face. No. No.
I always thought it was ovular, but long. Not
too long, no. And I think mine's square. You're
more square. Yeah. So for you, you wouldn't want
like a square, blunt bob, especially around the
jawline. So that's why mine always kind of sit
chin and below. I don't really go up here because
it would accentuate that squareness. One of the
things I did, actually, this is quite funny,
I took a photo of myself on Uplager and to chat
GPT and I said, what's the best haircut for my
face? Look at my face. And it gave me something
which is really funny, which I used to have when
I was much younger, in my 20s. In fact, I remember
when I had that done, Amun, who was my boyfriend
at the time, now my husband, he actually said
to me, like that was for him he thought that
was the best haircut i'd ever had yeah you know
like yeah what was it so it was like it was like
side um fringe because i can't say bangs and
then like that was taking off your corners yeah
and then like layers and then kind of just like
up to here but like larry and stuff and i was
like oh that looks cool but i'm 40 now and you
know can you have a fringe with gray hair like
you know you can you can yeah why not What about
fringe then? Why would grey hair relate to the
style? Because I feel like it would be, would
it be like, my fringe would be grey, but the
rest of my hair might still be a little bit dark.
Would it just look a bit off? And then, you know,
at this age, I know you said age doesn't matter.
Yeah. But, you know, can I have a fringe? I think
here it's challenging for fringes because it's
so hot. Yes. You end up stuck to your fringe.
Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's why I refuse to cut my
hair off. I actually try to, if people, someone
wants them coming. comes in wanting a full fringe
i'd usually say that's quite a lot of maintenance
and it is hard to manage with the heat here but
sweeping side fringe isn't seen directly on the
skin yeah so it's framing so again with the sweeping
side fringe is what is the goal of a sweeping
side fringe is create shape you can go to the
eyebrow and you open up shape here yeah you can
have it to the cheekbone and you create an opening
here yeah it was exactly that was exactly what
that yeah so what that was doing was again we'd
go back to your like square shape yeah the sweeping
fringe is taking off the corners of your square
to leave the top of the oval and then Some people
as well, you can go to jaw and it creates an
opening here so that it can soften that area
rather than it feeling like it's hanging and
going straight. Some people say, oh, my hair
just hangs down. It's got no shape. So the whole
point of a side fringe is to create shape and
opens and you use it to your advantage. It's
also maintenance, isn't it? Because you then
have to style that fringe to get it. blowing
in the right direction because i can just imagine
if i did it yeah the first day it would be like
beautiful symmetrical and then the next day it'll
be like going like one way well if it goes both
ways and it's versatile it doesn't matter where
you party okay so if you have a versatile fringe
cut in You can wear it in any parting. So if
it's not playing ball with you and it's not going
in the center where it went the day before, it
should still sit well. And imagine you wore your
hair up today as you are, but you had a fringe
and you had to spend one extra minute just blow
drying your fringe. Is it only one minute? It
only takes like a minute. It's probably the easiest
part of the blow dry, right? And I teach people
how to blow dry their fringes all the time. I
always say to them, even if you just blow dry
the fringe. That's enough? That is enough. Because
as long as that on your face feels good, it doesn't
really matter what the rest of it's doing. Because
I feel like I'd end up getting bobby pins and
be like, let's stick it back in. Yeah, but if
you're not going to style it, but that's why
what is your routine, how much time are you prepared
to put into styling your hair is really important.
Again, as part of that conversation at the beginning,
don't give someone something they can't maintain.
If they're not prepared to put in any time or
they don't have the time. And the same for me
is I've got three kids, I'm running around, I
don't always have time to style my hair, then
it's not going to work and then you don't give
that person. And that's why the communication
is so important because I always say you can
go into a salon and say, can I have this haircut?
And many stylists will cut you that haircut.
Does it suit you? Are you going to be able to
manage it? And what's it going to look like on
a daily basis for you? So I think, again, it's
just going back to what works for you and why
it's so personal. So I think we're talking about
face shape and haircut, making sure it suits
you, and then colour. The biggest thing I see
is it being the wrong tone. So are you a cool
or are you a warm? And if your hair, which is
surrounding your face, is the wrong tone for
your skin type, it will make you look tired,
it will make your skin look sallow, it will give
you more shadows under your eyes, and it really
can affect how you feel. And so I think, again,
part of if you're having any colouring, just
making sure it is the right tone. Does this grey
then work for dark skin? Of course it can. Because
it's natural, it's naturally going that way.
It's just how you, if you're colouring it artificially,
is the artificial colour that you're putting
on there compatible? Ah, so is it the correct
grey? Yeah. is it the correct tone yeah so warm
or cool gray's never usually it sits in cool
for sure um because it has no pigment no warmth
left to it so what you want to be doing is making
sure you're not putting warm also next to gray
because they're incompatible tones So, like,
can you explain what you mean by that then? Like,
what would be a warm tone? So, if you had grey,
like, say you were 60 % grey, so the grey was
overtaking your natural hair colour, and you
had less, say, dark and more grey, and then you
were to put, like, a warm chocolate brown on
it, a warm chocolate brown next to a cool...
grey is incompatible so it's clashing so you'd
have to go like jet black or something it doesn't
have to be black it just has to be cool so cooler
tones um there's like a whole spectrum of tones
so uh so warm browns have like an orange or a
golden or a red face to them um whereas cool
browns have either like not purple as such like
it doesn't look purple but it's more on those
cooler tones Um, and that's more compatible because
it's the same tone as your gray. That's stupid
question. Yeah. This is embarrassing. Let me
even ask you. I want to hear it. Is your natural
hair color always the correct tone for you? Yes.
Okay. So like, and that doesn't change with age.
So like whatever hair is growing out of your
head, that is probably the hair. Yeah. That would
be whether you like it or not. Yeah. That would
be compatible with you. It will be compatible.
Yeah. Yeah. So really the tone. It usually goes
in. So your eye colour, your skin tone, your
hair colour are usually all compatible because
you go into that box of this hair type and skin
tone. So it's like redheads usually have pale
complexions and they can have brown eyes and
light eyes. So you still get different categories
within that. Usually they're more fairer and
skinned. So there are kind of personality traits
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a big theme here on the 40s formula is reinvention.
And I think a lot of women do use their hair
to either kind of stay in their comfort zone
or to reinvent themselves. But I have a question
like the old trope of cutting bangs when you
break up. Right. So meaning like making a big
hair transition when you have a big life transition.
Yeah. Is it better to lean into that and be like,
yo, no time like the present. I'm cutting these
bangs or. Is it more like try to keep your hair
consistent when your life is in chaos? Like,
do you have an opinion on when's the right time
to make a big change? That's a really good question,
because I think for the average person, it's
not the best time to have a big change. It's
not the answer to your problems. So I always
have the question I ask people when they come
in asking for a big change is. Have you been
thinking about this for a long time? Do you have
a Pinterest board? Have you been collecting images?
Is it something that you're like for a long time
have been like, oh, I wish I could do that. And
now today's the day you've decided to do it.
Or did you wake up this morning thinking? And
go, F this. This is what I actually do with people
about tattoos. And people are like, oh, Amanda,
should I get a tattoo? Not that I'm a tattoo
artist, but I have a lot. And I'm like, have
you been thinking about it for more than 12 months?
Did you design it? Do you have a Pinterest board
full of things? If you're just like, yo, I'm
getting a tattoo today. probably not going to
work out for you because sometimes in that moment
i'm like if it's something you've been thinking
about and again it suits you and or can we tailor
it to make sure we can tweak it to make sure
it suits your face shape or is the right tone
for you then i'm like go for it what life is
too short to have the same hairstyle forever
and why not try something new if it's something
that has been more deep rooted but if it's on
a whim and it's like you know i've broken up
with my boyfriend um especially i think for me
um when there's big hormonal shifts so when you're
having a baby oh my gosh you're that's me it's
hitting me hard that's the last time i chopped
was when i got pregnant with archie yeah i was
like i'm gonna i'm like i don't know what i was
thinking it was covid days pregnant with my second
very fast after my first like i my first was
only nine months old and i got pregnant and i
was like screw it this is the time i hated how
i looked in that pregnancy my hair was like this
short and i was this wide that was my biggest
pregnancy just as a fun fact and i was just like
what i doing this was awful well that is exactly
why so i think especially when we have babies
we lose our identity a little bit that's how
i felt we don't feel like ourselves our body
is changing in a way that we're we don't recognize
it to have a big change with your hair at the
same time it's just kind of a recipe for disaster
so i think again enhancing what you already have
making sure it suits you and it's healthy is
the most important And even when you've had the
baby postpartum, that's also not usually the
right time to go because, again, you're going
through so many changes. And I certainly when
I had my first, I definitely had a loss of identity.
And I was a bit like grappling for like who I
don't just want to be mom. I want to be Tony
still. But who is Tony now? Because Tony's evolved
and changed and holding on to like where I felt
my best and what. i was used to was the right
thing i think at that moment in time but i have
had um there are circumstances if someone's really
strongly feels like i had that haircut before
it works for me i love it i want it and they're
almost they're telling me all the right things
that make me go okay we can do that if not i
would advise this isn't the right time and you
might have that i guess through perimenopause
if you're going through a stage of like who am
i like i can't remember what's going you know
there's all these things happening you want the
things that to make you feel grounded which are
the things that are the same all the time the
things that you can control um you keep those
more grounded because everything else that you
can't control is a bit up in the air one of the
things i did postpartum when i moved to singapore
was actually cut my hair because i was getting
a lot of hair loss yes does that work like is
there some science to that because i know that
yeah obviously when you've got longer hair and
you're losing hair you're like fuck i'm losing
so much hair yeah but when you've got shorter
hair doesn't seem as much like is there really
any like science or any truth to that your hair
the science behind hair is a third of it is resting
a third of it is growing and a third of it is
falling out doesn't feel like that though does
it so each individual hair will go through all
three stages usually is five to seven years so
essentially every five to seven years a third
of your hair is new hair so it's normal so there's
little baby hairs like sprouting yeah exactly
so maybe this will get back to and then that's
um accelerated in postpartum and menopause those
things kind of things like stress diet anxiety
they all can accelerate those things happening
um so i think we just want to be mindful that
um here particularly lots of women said to me
the hair was falling out when they moved here
and at the beginning i was like surely not like
everyone keeps saying to me and but when i looked
into it it came back to the water oh that's interesting
do you know what the filter is really important
because that's the only and and the stress of
moving country i thought it was like we were
molting like a dog i thought molting as well
because the heat that's what i assumed i thought
right okay it's just hot so my body is like we
don't need this much hair No, I think it's just
a natural cycle. And sometimes it will feel like
lots is falling out. So again, going back to
postpartum, when you're pregnant, the third that
should fall out stops falling out. And that's
why everyone has that peaceful, healthy, thick,
luscious hair when they're pregnant. And then
when you give birth, all the hair that should
have fallen out in nine months, plus the hair
that will come out anyway comes out. So it's
like you've got two thirds of your hair falling
out. And then you're really shedding. And that's
when, especially around the hairline, the same
in perimenopause, it's always hairline and crown,
which tend to be the places that start thinning
first. But then you get the new growth that comes
back through. And I always say to people, I know
it's really annoying when you have all these
like sprouts coming out, but that's a good thing.
The hair is still coming back through and that
is the natural cycle. So we've talked about kind
of what aging does to your hair. Womp womp. But
I'm going to bring it back to the young kids.
So are there anything that millennials and the
younger Gen Xs, is there anything that we're
doing with our hair that the Gen Zs would roll
their eyes and be like, that is such an old person
thing to do with your hair? Well, there's always
a controversy. I can't say it, controversy over
the parting. I know, I fucking hate that. Because
I'm a side partner. Yeah, they took our side
parts. And that's very frustrating to me. But
everything comes back round. And I just always
think, again, you do what's right for your face
shape and what suits you. And people are open.
So when I always say to people, where do you
part your hair? Some people have very strong
natural partings and you have to go with it.
Some people's hair wants a part in a place. And
if you start fighting it to go somewhere else,
it always goes back to where it wants to go anyway.
So again, working with what you have in your
growth patterns, because bearing in mind, everyone
has, some people have really strong cow's licks
or widow's peaks or nape whirls down here. So
certain haircuts won't work for them or partings
won't work for them. I think there is something
for everybody because there's so many different
styles out there. I don't think, again, those
boxes exist as much anymore. Yeah, good. But
there is the battle between like the generations
for sure. Yeah. And I recently found out, the
reason this is like hot on my mind is because
I recently found out that red lipstick is now
millennial. Okay. Like if you just have a beautiful
bold lip. I was like, beautiful bold lip is my
go -to. That's my thing. That's like what I do
when I try to look nice. So how are you taking
this from me? So I was like, are there other
things? He's coming back round. Okay. Everything
comes back round. Man alive. But I also think,
right, we shouldn't really give a shit what they
think. We were here first. I was alive when you
were being born. Well, you're owning it as well.
Yeah. Where does that come from? Confidence.
Exactly. What makes you feel confident is. how
you present yourself right yeah it's like what
you're wearing what makeup if you put makeup
on you don't put makeup on if you've done your
hair today if you haven't done your hair so it
all comes back to everything comes back to how
we feel inside and the outside helps that yeah
and it helps us almost fake it till we make it
sometimes sometimes we don't feel great and we're
like right but i'm gonna make sure i look my
best today And it helps you have that confidence.
And sometimes that then helps you out of that
place of feeling a bit like crap about yourself.
I feel like we need to do like a side parting
get together. I've seen loads of Instagram rules.
It must be coming on my algorithm of millennials
being like. you don't know what it's like we
used to go out and party oh i'm getting don't
think i mean there's a cheap heel and a sandwich
dress you know the bandage dress is so uncomfortable
when it was cold like no no one wears heels anymore
like i'm wearing heels now but yeah it's like
how can you go to a club with no heels on it
makes no sense no just letting your calves look
like that no i'm just kidding to be fair now
i've gone that way yes i've evolved into like
i never wear heels anymore yeah i'm a fancy sneaker
So we've evolved. So we're still millennials,
but we still have elements. It's still cool.
Yeah, you just evolve, don't you, with the times.
So I think as long as we're always evolving.
to the best version of ourselves that's personalized
to us. And I'm not giving up my side parting.
And I'm not giving up my bright lipstick. Are
you out of your mind? As a blonde, there's only
so many things we have on our face. It's like
we got eyebrows and lips. Let us have it. Yeah.
Well, like you were saying earlier for the younger
generation, what is it for them? It's like experiment.
Yeah. Find what works for you and doesn't work
for you. And then there'll be something. Everyone
will come because I always say when people come
for the consultation. You've worn your hair every
day. You know it best. What do you like and dislike
about it? What has worked for you and what hasn't
worked for you? I'm like, I need that information
from you. You have that fountain of knowledge
about your own hair. And then I can advise you
with that information. It's not just I can't
do it without that information. And people will
always be like, oh, my God, once I had this and
that really didn't work. So everyone will have
those stories through experimenting and you know
what not to have again. But sometimes you need
the guidance of. Well, how can I enhance it or
improve it? I remember I had a stylist once,
like a professional stylist. This was right after
my second baby. So after the chop and then it
grew out a little bit and then I had the stylist.
So she came over and she was dressing me and
I was like, what would I do with my hair for
this look? And she was like, oh, just a ponytail.
And I was like, like aghast because I was like,
I can just do a ponytail. Like I can just wear
a ponytail because I always thought like, oh,
ponytails like when I'm not trying or when I'm
going to work out or whatever. She was like,
yeah, just pull it back in a ponytail. Just like
have your face out. And I was like, like, it
just was shocking to me because I think we do
create our own scripts about our hair or like
about what is acceptable. And she was like, you're
literally a fitness coach. Like wear a ponytail.
What's wrong with you? And I was like, I guess.
Yeah. To me, it's not done. You know, it seemed
undone, but she was like, it can be beautiful.
Like Jasmine's glorious ponytail. But like everything,
if you wear a ponytail. You can dress it up with
accessories. You make sure you have nice earrings.
But on the days where you have it down, you might
not accessorize as much because then you feel
like your hair is doing the work. Yeah, fair.
I absolutely do that. You counterbalance in some
way. And I think that's the beauty of it, right,
is, again, you find, okay, I can wear my hair
up and make sure it doesn't look a mess, but
it's up and it's sleek and feels, I mean, I've
controlled it, but I've added some accessories
to kind of. to dress up in another way. In America,
we call it zhuzhing. Zhuzh yourself up. So you've
given us a ton to think about, but we have some
real quick rapid fire questions on hot topics
in hair. Now, this isn't like a one word answer
thing. It's just, do you think what I'm about
to ask is either hot or hype? So meaning, is
this cool? Yes, go with it. Or is this total
hype? Get over it. All righty. head spas this
is a big thing in asia my international listeners
i'm not sure but these korean head spas japanese
head spas where you go and get a spa for your
hair they shine your hair under a light show
your roots talk to me about it yeah i think like
everything there'll be great ones and there'll
be kind of not so great ones so if they are they
know what they're doing and they're experienced
and they're giving you the right analysis of
your scalp and your hair Great. Go for it. Because
like we said, healthy scalp, healthy hair. If
you can go and also I think most people go because
it's relaxing. Yeah. You just get through the
assessment part and then you're like, just do
whatever to my head. I think they're there for
like the hour long head massage. So if, yeah,
they really are expertise and they know what
they're talking about and they can advise you.
You've got a dry scalp. Moisturize it throughout
that service or whatever it is that you're, I
guess it's like skincare, but for your scalp.
Like a facial. Yeah, exactly. Then perfect. Go
for it. Why not? And have the relaxation at the
same time. Yes. Okay. Again, we get a pass for
something we love anyway. That's our favorite
answer on Hot or Hype. I'll tell you what. How
about going gray in your 40s? So using this time
to do the grey blending and let it rip. Well,
I think that's an interesting even question because
some people start going grey in their 20s. Yeah,
that was me, by the way. Or their 30s. And the
thing about grey is some people go grey overnight.
Some people get a few greys and then it takes
forever to progress. So there's no kind of like,
again, I think people get so stuck on age brackets.
And it's like it doesn't need to be related to
age because grey can start any time. And some
people have full head of natural hair without
any grey and they're like 60. Yeah. So it's more
about. My father -in -law, by the way. Yeah.
Just great head of hair. It's just black, jet
black hair. Wow. Like at age, whatever, 65. And
then I used to work with a guy who said at 19
he virtually almost went grey overnight. He just
said it happened so quickly, 100 % great, when
he was like 21. So you embrace it, right, at
that point? Yeah, he's embraced it. How about,
speaking of things that we embrace from the past,
how about like... how my mom used to curl my
hair so she would like tie yeah like almost fabric
pieces in it to curl it that sucks like yeah
yeah so ours was like these fabric pieces but
like socks i think is the traditional way of
doing it like these old school heatless curling
is that better for our hair hot or hype well
yeah great i think if you've got a method that
gives you the end result that you like because
obviously that's quite a different look if you
look back to when you were a kid because i look
back at photos when i had the right we used to
call it the rags in the hair yeah and then we'd
be going to a wedding the next day. Yes, correct.
Like a family wedding. That is exactly what I'm
talking about. Like a poodle. Yes. Specifically
that. So if you want a poodle look, then go for
it. Is there a cool way to do it? But there are
lots of, like, contraptions you could buy off
Amazon. You know, the famous one is the, it's
like a foam, almost like a pool noodle, but that
goes over your head and you wrap it around. I
don't know about that. Somebody I know who works
online a lot. um and she'll if she's ever listening
she'll know who she is she says it's great because
she does it and people only ever see her from
the front but she's like look at the back it's
my situation yeah we were talking about this
off air folks because it all had to come from
the back around the side but she's like But it's
perfect for when I'm working online because from
the front, it looks perfect. But if you're going
to go to an event, maybe not so good. You might
need to get another noodle. I always say to people,
if it's a cheat, there's not really a cheat for
it all to look great. You kind of just have to
learn the skills, which is why we have the masterclass.
So the reason I invented the masterclass is because
95 % of people sit in their chair going. I wish
I could style my hair like that. Yeah, that's
me. I say that every time I get my hair done.
So tomorrow, actually, I'm joining Tony's masterclass
and I'm going to learn. So listeners, by the
time you hear this, it will have happened. So
check my socials. It's just empowering you to
have the choice to style it. So going back to
kind of, do we have the time? Do we have the
skills? And it's just, it's giving you an hour
and a half where I teach you step by step. and
you do it, and you build the muscle memory so
then when you go home, you can recreate the same
looks at home. And all of my clients who've had
it always come back and just say it's actually,
again, it's that confidence. Last week, one of
my clients said, I went on a girl's weekend,
and she's like, it was just so amazing that I
could do my own hair every day. That's what I
want. Amazing. That's what I want. It's like
really empowering people to, if they want to,
they can. make their self look like they do when
they leave the salon yeah teach a man a fish
girl you know it's like this is this is exactly
what i need yeah so this has been an amazing
conversation and i think women in their 40s need
to kind of remember these thematics right which
is your hair needs to work for you and your actual
life and it doesn't matter kind of what the trends
are what's going on in gen z and also that's
you know healthy hair starts with your scalp
yeah what is your 40s formula specifically in
the area of hair tony and your expertise what
is the 40s formula for women who really want
to look good and thrive yeah and look nice with
their hair in this decade i think if you're feeling
like your hair isn't working for you just investing
the time just to have a consultation and digest
all that information and go and decide what it
is that you want from your hair and again is
it how much time Is it going to work for you?
I think, again, just really making sure it works
for you is the most important. Yeah, see a pro,
right? Invest the resources in what you really
want. I think that's great advice. Well, thank
you for being with us today, Tony. We really
appreciate it. Thank you. It's been amazing.
And happy first podcast. Thank you. We'll celebrate
with a cupcake next year. one take situation
oh yeah pros pros right thank you Tony thank
you for that very impressed it's not normally
like that it is so rare that I just need to call
it out because it is so rare okay