WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.500 This episode contains sensitive conversations 00:00:02.500 --> 00:00:04.700 around stillbirth, miscarriage and perinatal 00:00:04.700 --> 00:00:29.699 mental health. Please ask us about her, our tears 00:00:29.699 --> 00:00:32.119 may flow in front of you but we're so grateful 00:00:32.119 --> 00:00:34.920 to you for talking about it. Jane Street, a mother, 00:00:35.240 --> 00:00:37.939 business owner and counsellor in training. Jane's 00:00:37.939 --> 00:00:39.979 life took an unimaginable turn when her daughter 00:00:39.979 --> 00:00:42.700 Summer was still born at six months. Since then 00:00:42.700 --> 00:00:44.600 she's walked a journey through profound grief 00:00:44.600 --> 00:00:47.340 and healing and she now uses her experience to 00:00:47.340 --> 00:00:49.100 advocate for mental health and support others 00:00:49.100 --> 00:00:53.679 navigating loss. The 40s Formula. The 40s Formula. 00:00:53.920 --> 00:00:58.280 The 40s Formula. Hosted by Jasmine Dillon, integrated 00:00:58.280 --> 00:01:00.780 health strategist specializing in gut health, 00:01:01.159 --> 00:01:03.640 hormones, and midlife well -being. And Amanda 00:01:03.640 --> 00:01:06.760 Lim, director of Lyft Clinic and a leading expert 00:01:06.760 --> 00:01:09.420 in female strength and metabolism. Named one 00:01:09.420 --> 00:01:13.079 of CNA's top podcasts and winner of the 2025 00:01:13.079 --> 00:01:16.299 Asia Podcast Awards in the best health and wellness 00:01:16.299 --> 00:01:19.280 podcast category. The 40s formula is your no 00:01:19.280 --> 00:01:22.799 fluff science meets real life guide to thriving 00:01:22.799 --> 00:01:28.010 in your 40s. Jane first shared her story with 00:01:28.010 --> 00:01:30.590 Sassy Mama magazine, opening up about the raw 00:01:30.590 --> 00:01:33.269 reality of losing her baby girl and the relentless 00:01:33.269 --> 00:01:35.730 grief that followed. Today she's here to share 00:01:35.730 --> 00:01:38.109 the journey with us, how she honored summer's 00:01:38.109 --> 00:01:40.590 memory and how she's learned about living with 00:01:40.590 --> 00:01:42.989 grief and the way she's finding hope and purpose 00:01:42.989 --> 00:01:45.609 on the other side. Hi Jane, thank you for coming 00:01:45.609 --> 00:01:48.510 here today and sharing your story with us. Do 00:01:48.510 --> 00:01:50.230 you mind just taking us back to the beginning 00:01:50.230 --> 00:01:55.069 and let us know what happened when you felt something 00:01:55.069 --> 00:01:58.099 was wrong? Yeah. Thanks for having me. It's really 00:01:58.099 --> 00:02:00.519 good to be here. It was a long time ago now, 00:02:00.519 --> 00:02:02.500 or it feels quite a long time ago. So it was 00:02:02.500 --> 00:02:06.939 back at Christmas 2018. So on Boxing Day, we'd 00:02:06.939 --> 00:02:09.159 had all the Christmas festivities and everything. 00:02:09.240 --> 00:02:11.319 And on Boxing Day, we were going to my best friends 00:02:11.319 --> 00:02:12.939 because we always do a family Christmas with 00:02:12.939 --> 00:02:14.879 them, another Christmas day with all the kids. 00:02:15.560 --> 00:02:18.360 And we were getting ready to go for that. And 00:02:18.360 --> 00:02:20.560 I suddenly realized that I had, so I was nearly 00:02:20.560 --> 00:02:23.199 six months pregnant then. And I suddenly realized 00:02:23.199 --> 00:02:26.449 that I hadn't felt her move. Um, and I was trying 00:02:26.449 --> 00:02:28.650 to think back to when was the last time I'd felt 00:02:28.650 --> 00:02:30.889 her move and I just couldn't think. So I was 00:02:30.889 --> 00:02:33.789 a bit panicky, um, felt like there might be something 00:02:33.789 --> 00:02:35.969 off, but my husband was trying to calm me and, 00:02:35.969 --> 00:02:38.229 and was like, it will be okay. So then we decided 00:02:38.229 --> 00:02:40.830 to contact my doctor. Got to love Singapore for 00:02:40.830 --> 00:02:43.150 that. Contacted them and he was like, just come 00:02:43.150 --> 00:02:46.449 straight in. Um, and I had a scan and there was 00:02:46.449 --> 00:02:49.250 no heartbeat. Oh God, that must have been, I 00:02:49.250 --> 00:02:52.050 mean, I just, I don't even know. you know, what 00:02:52.050 --> 00:02:54.509 was going through your mind at that time. And 00:02:54.509 --> 00:02:58.789 when you realize that, like, how, how did it 00:02:58.789 --> 00:03:00.750 make you feel? Like what, what were the sort 00:03:00.750 --> 00:03:02.909 of the emotions you were going through? Yeah, 00:03:03.110 --> 00:03:06.310 I think when, I think when I realized I couldn't 00:03:06.310 --> 00:03:08.229 feel the heartbeat and I hadn't, or I hadn't, 00:03:08.270 --> 00:03:11.669 sorry, I hadn't felt her move. I kind of instinctively 00:03:11.669 --> 00:03:13.610 knew that there was something wrong. So I'd had 00:03:13.610 --> 00:03:15.550 two other pregnancies because I have, I had two 00:03:15.550 --> 00:03:19.650 older children at that time. Um, and I just knew 00:03:19.650 --> 00:03:23.189 something was not right. Um, so even though my 00:03:23.189 --> 00:03:24.969 husband and I had called my best friend to say 00:03:24.969 --> 00:03:27.949 that we'd be late, um, and also even when I called 00:03:27.949 --> 00:03:29.490 the doctors, you know, everyone was trying to 00:03:29.490 --> 00:03:31.849 calm me, but I have quite a strong mind body 00:03:31.849 --> 00:03:35.889 connections and I just instinctively knew that 00:03:35.889 --> 00:03:39.240 that was going to be the outcome. So then. When 00:03:39.240 --> 00:03:40.800 I guess there's always a bit of hope though, 00:03:40.960 --> 00:03:44.080 right? So when we went there and had the scan 00:03:44.080 --> 00:03:46.599 and they confirmed it, yeah, it was devastating. 00:03:46.939 --> 00:03:50.199 Like I think there actually was a whale that 00:03:50.199 --> 00:03:53.259 came from me that was almost like, where is that 00:03:53.259 --> 00:03:54.780 sound coming from? And then I realized it was 00:03:54.780 --> 00:03:57.659 coming from me. Yeah. In your, in sort of in 00:03:57.659 --> 00:04:00.939 your writing and also in your social media, you 00:04:00.939 --> 00:04:05.090 do talk about your, your post. lost self and, 00:04:05.590 --> 00:04:08.030 and your sort of pre -lost self. How do those 00:04:08.030 --> 00:04:11.710 two coexist now? Do they coexist now? Yeah, it's 00:04:11.710 --> 00:04:13.669 tough, I think. And I think, you know, you kind 00:04:13.669 --> 00:04:16.949 of move the, it was, it feels like I said at 00:04:16.949 --> 00:04:18.430 the beginning, it feels like a long time ago 00:04:18.430 --> 00:04:21.850 now. Um, but that's still there. I think that 00:04:21.850 --> 00:04:27.610 for me, I was, I feel like I'm a bit more, uh, 00:04:27.769 --> 00:04:30.949 I kind of am a bit more aware. that stuff happens 00:04:30.949 --> 00:04:33.930 now. I think previously there was almost like 00:04:33.930 --> 00:04:38.250 a little bit of naivety to me. I'm probably more 00:04:38.250 --> 00:04:40.230 aware that some bad things can happen, but I'm 00:04:40.230 --> 00:04:43.889 also more aware of how to make life the most 00:04:43.889 --> 00:04:45.990 of life, right? You know, like that's just so 00:04:45.990 --> 00:04:48.910 more important now, so much more important. And 00:04:48.910 --> 00:04:51.949 it's almost made me realize that it's more important 00:04:51.949 --> 00:04:54.329 as well to take time for myself. Yeah. Yeah. 00:04:54.709 --> 00:04:59.980 You've got two older kids. Yeah. How How was, 00:05:00.139 --> 00:05:03.060 how was it explaining to them what you were going 00:05:03.060 --> 00:05:05.680 through? Yeah, it was really tough. So I had, 00:05:05.879 --> 00:05:08.540 so my eldest, he was five and my youngest, she 00:05:08.540 --> 00:05:11.439 was, my younger one, she was three. So they were 00:05:11.439 --> 00:05:14.180 young, but they also, you know, I was showing 00:05:14.180 --> 00:05:17.430 they were. excited for their sister. They, when 00:05:17.430 --> 00:05:19.550 you were having a girl, Emmy in particular was 00:05:19.550 --> 00:05:23.209 very excited to be having a sister. Um, and they, 00:05:23.329 --> 00:05:25.850 yeah, so it was tough. So we, when we left the 00:05:25.850 --> 00:05:29.389 hospital, I called, I was, I used a doula for 00:05:29.389 --> 00:05:31.730 both the older children and, uh, she was also 00:05:31.730 --> 00:05:35.410 supporting me for summer. Um, and I called her 00:05:35.410 --> 00:05:37.370 straight away. She was actually living in JB 00:05:37.370 --> 00:05:39.470 then, so across the border. And obviously it 00:05:39.470 --> 00:05:42.189 was just after Christmas. So I did call her and 00:05:42.189 --> 00:05:44.670 I spoke to her and she was like, okay, I'm coming 00:05:44.670 --> 00:05:47.730 straight away. And she really encouraged me to 00:05:47.730 --> 00:05:50.209 tell the children, um, and to go home and be 00:05:50.209 --> 00:05:52.970 open. I'm a super open person. Like I wear my 00:05:52.970 --> 00:05:55.689 heart on my sleeve. Um, and I literally can't 00:05:55.689 --> 00:05:58.110 keep stuff in if it's bothering me. So there's 00:05:58.110 --> 00:05:59.649 no way I could have hidden it from the children. 00:06:00.050 --> 00:06:03.629 So. Yeah. So we told them they had a lot of questions, 00:06:03.769 --> 00:06:06.009 a lot of practical questions like how's the baby 00:06:06.009 --> 00:06:08.829 going to come out now? What happens? Like all 00:06:08.829 --> 00:06:12.149 of that type of thing. But yeah, it was tough. 00:06:12.550 --> 00:06:14.910 And actually Tanya, my doula, she encouraged 00:06:14.910 --> 00:06:21.970 me to just take some photos and also to get them 00:06:21.970 --> 00:06:24.750 to draw some pictures. So that was nice. It was 00:06:24.750 --> 00:06:28.310 also a way for them to process what they were 00:06:28.310 --> 00:06:31.110 going through as well. Did they remember that 00:06:31.110 --> 00:06:33.870 moment? I don't know if they remember the exact 00:06:33.870 --> 00:06:38.389 moment. I suspect they probably do. They, particularly 00:06:38.389 --> 00:06:43.149 my eldest, they were, he's very tapped into my 00:06:43.149 --> 00:06:46.529 emotions. So yeah, it was interesting. I suspect 00:06:46.529 --> 00:06:48.569 they probably do that. We also were meant to 00:06:48.569 --> 00:06:50.649 be flying to Japan the next day for a holiday. 00:06:51.089 --> 00:06:53.670 So we had to cancel that. So they, they were 00:06:53.670 --> 00:06:56.290 also, you know, like practical in that sense 00:06:56.290 --> 00:06:57.850 as well. They were like, but we were going on 00:06:57.850 --> 00:07:01.050 holiday and now we can't go. Um, so yeah, so, 00:07:01.189 --> 00:07:03.610 but I suspect they would remember if, if I asked 00:07:03.610 --> 00:07:06.910 them in detail. And since that experience, you 00:07:06.910 --> 00:07:10.209 have had another child. Yes. Yes. So we had another 00:07:10.209 --> 00:07:13.410 baby. Um, we actually found out we were pregnant 00:07:13.410 --> 00:07:16.610 with the next baby a year to the day of losing 00:07:16.610 --> 00:07:20.670 summer. Um, which was, it was very bittersweet, 00:07:20.670 --> 00:07:23.470 obviously. And actually for that year, It had 00:07:23.470 --> 00:07:25.449 been a tough year, obviously with the grief and 00:07:25.449 --> 00:07:27.449 everything, but also because it was very difficult 00:07:27.449 --> 00:07:30.350 for us to conceive again, which was unusual because 00:07:30.350 --> 00:07:32.970 the first three pregnancies, I was very lucky 00:07:32.970 --> 00:07:36.990 and blessed in that it had been quite easy. So 00:07:36.990 --> 00:07:39.110 yeah, so it was a real bittersweet moment on 00:07:39.110 --> 00:07:41.730 her, the first anniversary of her death or her 00:07:41.730 --> 00:07:43.670 birthday, whichever way you want to look at it. 00:07:44.160 --> 00:07:46.819 I mean, that must've been tough, even that pregnancy, 00:07:47.319 --> 00:07:49.980 how, what did you go through during that, during, 00:07:49.980 --> 00:07:52.500 you know, the, the nine months that you were 00:07:52.500 --> 00:07:56.959 pregnant? Yeah, it was tough. Um, I had a lot, 00:07:57.139 --> 00:08:00.250 there was a lot of. blues, I think I would describe 00:08:00.250 --> 00:08:04.689 it as, in terms of I had a real struggle with 00:08:04.689 --> 00:08:07.829 how was I going to accept a new baby when the 00:08:07.829 --> 00:08:10.269 other baby and like that just mental battle of 00:08:10.269 --> 00:08:12.930 like, this baby doesn't replace summer, but it's 00:08:12.930 --> 00:08:16.069 not summer. And so that was tough. And then, 00:08:16.170 --> 00:08:18.029 but I kind of, I actually saw a counselor for 00:08:18.029 --> 00:08:21.470 a bit around that, which really helped. And then 00:08:21.470 --> 00:08:24.029 I, but then towards the end, it was very anxious, 00:08:24.050 --> 00:08:28.610 like really, really. just so tight. Um, and then, 00:08:28.750 --> 00:08:31.829 and it was also COVID, it was 2020. Um, so it 00:08:31.829 --> 00:08:35.549 was, it was really hard. Um, and then I think 00:08:35.549 --> 00:08:38.269 that she was also late. Um, so she was like eight 00:08:38.269 --> 00:08:40.690 days late, which my other two babies are also 00:08:40.690 --> 00:08:43.809 late babies, but it was like every day, it felt 00:08:43.809 --> 00:08:46.450 like I was ticking off and was she going to be 00:08:46.450 --> 00:08:49.049 born alive? That was literally was. I just didn't 00:08:49.049 --> 00:08:51.269 know whether she was going to be born alive or 00:08:51.269 --> 00:08:53.350 yeah. Did you have a great deal of fear around 00:08:53.350 --> 00:08:56.049 that six -month mark? Yes. So getting over that 00:08:56.049 --> 00:08:59.049 was a big hump, like it felt. And actually, I 00:08:59.049 --> 00:09:01.269 really thought that I would relax into the pregnancy 00:09:01.269 --> 00:09:06.190 more. But it helped, but I don't think I did. 00:09:06.289 --> 00:09:08.110 I don't think I ever relaxed into that pregnancy. 00:09:08.230 --> 00:09:10.730 I think I had a hypervigilance and a tightness 00:09:10.730 --> 00:09:13.929 to me for that whole period, for the whole time 00:09:13.929 --> 00:09:17.049 I was pregnant with her. I feel like I'm actually 00:09:17.049 --> 00:09:20.210 not surprised because, you know, you went through 00:09:20.210 --> 00:09:23.590 such an ordeal. in summer, that must've been, 00:09:23.929 --> 00:09:26.509 you know, like that, that sort of, I guess that 00:09:26.509 --> 00:09:28.809 sort of innate feeling inside you was like, right, 00:09:29.389 --> 00:09:32.190 how am I going to cope if this happens again? 00:09:33.210 --> 00:09:36.509 What were the kids like then during your pregnancy 00:09:36.509 --> 00:09:39.450 with Lulu? Yeah, I think that they probably, 00:09:39.590 --> 00:09:42.669 so they were obviously a bit older then, but 00:09:42.669 --> 00:09:45.070 they, I think they didn't really know whether 00:09:45.070 --> 00:09:49.990 to believe that it would be true. Um, I think 00:09:49.990 --> 00:09:53.289 that they, yeah, I don't think they thought that 00:09:53.289 --> 00:09:55.990 a pregnancy necessarily ends in a living baby. 00:09:56.090 --> 00:09:58.870 Yeah. Yeah. Which is sad, right? For that innocence 00:09:58.870 --> 00:10:02.809 to be lost at that age. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, just, 00:10:03.009 --> 00:10:05.750 wow. That's a, you know, it's a hard thought 00:10:05.750 --> 00:10:12.309 to have. Yeah. Um, when you experienced your 00:10:12.309 --> 00:10:15.950 loss with Summer. What sort of support did you 00:10:15.950 --> 00:10:19.169 receive? Obviously, you spoke about your doula 00:10:19.169 --> 00:10:21.529 and how she helped you communicate with the children. 00:10:22.470 --> 00:10:27.529 How did family, friends, how did they all play 00:10:27.529 --> 00:10:30.750 a part in helping you sort of get through that 00:10:30.750 --> 00:10:33.330 grieving period? Yeah, so they were all really 00:10:33.330 --> 00:10:36.870 important. And I think, so my parents -in -law 00:10:36.870 --> 00:10:39.190 were there at the time, they were here, sorry, 00:10:39.289 --> 00:10:41.409 at the time they were here for Christmas that 00:10:41.409 --> 00:10:45.950 year. Which was helpful. Um, it was tricky not 00:10:45.950 --> 00:10:48.509 having my mom here and my dad and my sister. 00:10:49.029 --> 00:10:51.470 Um, so that was pretty hard, but it just was 00:10:51.470 --> 00:10:53.669 not conceivable. Like my mom obviously wanted 00:10:53.669 --> 00:10:56.190 to come straight over, but it just was not conceivable 00:10:56.190 --> 00:10:59.090 to be able to do that. Like we had, like I say, 00:10:59.210 --> 00:11:01.309 my husband's parents were there and we just didn't 00:11:01.309 --> 00:11:02.970 have room for it. And actually I just didn't 00:11:02.970 --> 00:11:04.809 have the mental space for it. And I also just 00:11:04.809 --> 00:11:09.669 needed to go through it in my own way. Um, and 00:11:09.669 --> 00:11:12.710 so, so Simon was, my husband was like a massive, 00:11:12.809 --> 00:11:16.649 he's amazing. So he was a massive support. Um, 00:11:17.049 --> 00:11:20.970 and also my best friend, she, who's here, I've 00:11:20.970 --> 00:11:22.330 lived here for a long time. We've known each 00:11:22.330 --> 00:11:25.070 other since I pretty much moved here. Um, and 00:11:25.070 --> 00:11:27.509 so she was a massive support and then other friends 00:11:27.509 --> 00:11:30.929 too. Um, I also had some counseling, which actually 00:11:31.450 --> 00:11:33.809 I kind of immediately tried to rush into that 00:11:33.809 --> 00:11:35.710 and was like, I need to fix this, I need to feel 00:11:35.710 --> 00:11:37.809 better and I need to get over this and stuff, 00:11:37.850 --> 00:11:41.870 which is very me at that time was very me. Um, 00:11:42.110 --> 00:11:44.710 and it was all a bit too quick. Like I just wasn't 00:11:44.710 --> 00:11:47.389 ready for that. Um, so further down the line 00:11:47.389 --> 00:11:49.690 I had counseling again, and that was much more 00:11:49.690 --> 00:11:52.110 helpful at that point. Yeah. So there was a lot 00:11:52.110 --> 00:11:54.210 of, there was a lot of support. My doula Tanya 00:11:54.210 --> 00:11:58.429 was unbelievably amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Like I 00:11:58.429 --> 00:12:01.090 think. you sort of think about sort of the immediate 00:12:01.090 --> 00:12:03.870 aftermath and how that that would have been tough 00:12:03.870 --> 00:12:05.789 for you but then sort of following on obviously 00:12:05.789 --> 00:12:07.929 you never get over something like this but when 00:12:07.929 --> 00:12:11.049 did things start to feel a little bit easier 00:12:11.049 --> 00:12:13.029 you know when did you start to come to terms 00:12:13.029 --> 00:12:15.730 with what had actually happened yeah i'd definitely 00:12:15.730 --> 00:12:21.779 say that took longer than i think You would expect 00:12:21.779 --> 00:12:25.139 like and and also that I think that society sometimes 00:12:25.139 --> 00:12:27.899 expects, you know Like this and there's a pressure 00:12:27.899 --> 00:12:31.220 on that that is maybe a real or in your headache 00:12:31.220 --> 00:12:34.200 pressure. I don't know But I definitely think 00:12:34.200 --> 00:12:36.840 it took longer than I would have thought and 00:12:36.840 --> 00:12:39.139 it was also particularly that whole first year 00:12:39.139 --> 00:12:40.860 You know, there's a lot of firsts like we had 00:12:40.860 --> 00:12:45.820 to go through her due dates we had to go even 00:12:45.820 --> 00:12:48.799 things like so my son turned six like probably 00:12:48.799 --> 00:12:52.200 just over a month after we lost Summer. And his 00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:55.100 birthday was so hard because I just couldn't. 00:12:55.100 --> 00:12:58.399 Be joyful. Yeah, and I couldn't. comprehend how 00:12:58.399 --> 00:13:00.659 I was just thinking back to his labor and the 00:13:00.659 --> 00:13:02.679 product of his labor and this beautiful child 00:13:02.679 --> 00:13:05.440 and how my previous labor had been such a different 00:13:05.440 --> 00:13:09.620 outcome. So there's so much that I think is so 00:13:09.620 --> 00:13:11.759 difficult. And also in that year, like when you 00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:14.340 lose a baby, you know, you've got all the baby 00:13:14.340 --> 00:13:16.820 weight that doesn't just drop off when you've 00:13:16.820 --> 00:13:19.080 lost a baby because I was not breastfeeding and 00:13:19.080 --> 00:13:22.600 I was, you know, so it was like, almost actually 00:13:22.600 --> 00:13:25.659 physically, I felt so different as well. And 00:13:25.659 --> 00:13:27.500 I found it really hard to lose that weight. And 00:13:27.500 --> 00:13:30.299 it was, it was just, there was so much that was 00:13:30.299 --> 00:13:33.019 a struggle around it. Like the initial part as 00:13:33.019 --> 00:13:36.120 well, you know, I have always been very blessed 00:13:36.120 --> 00:13:38.320 again and lucky that I had a good milk supply. 00:13:38.679 --> 00:13:40.779 But in that moment, I didn't want that good milk 00:13:40.779 --> 00:13:42.960 supply. Like my engorgement and the milk all 00:13:42.960 --> 00:13:45.440 came in and then you have no little mouth to 00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:48.240 feed. It was awful. Do you mind digging into 00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:50.559 that a little bit deeper with us in terms of 00:13:50.440 --> 00:13:53.360 the moments. So Boxing Day, you get the news. 00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:57.600 There is no heartbeat. And then it's my understanding 00:13:57.600 --> 00:14:01.379 that it's recommended typically to deliver the 00:14:01.379 --> 00:14:05.240 baby. So can you talk us through that process? 00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:08.279 When I was told there was no heartbeat, I think 00:14:08.279 --> 00:14:11.580 one of those other initial thoughts was... I 00:14:11.580 --> 00:14:13.620 think I was just like, how are they going to 00:14:13.620 --> 00:14:15.559 get this baby out? Much like my kid's awesome. 00:14:15.899 --> 00:14:19.720 Yes. Um, and in my head, I was just like, I just 00:14:19.720 --> 00:14:22.220 want like a general anesthetic. I want them to 00:14:22.220 --> 00:14:24.320 do a C -section. I want them to take the baby 00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:27.740 out. Like I just can't imagine how it happens 00:14:27.740 --> 00:14:30.320 any other way. And that's also where my doula 00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:33.759 was amazing. Cause she was just like, um, she 00:14:33.759 --> 00:14:36.039 gently encouraged me that yes, they could do 00:14:36.039 --> 00:14:38.789 that obviously if I wanted, but. it probably 00:14:38.789 --> 00:14:41.870 wouldn't be the best for my healing and for my 00:14:41.870 --> 00:14:44.570 like emotional wellbeing in terms of looking 00:14:44.570 --> 00:14:49.110 as a look back. Um, so yeah, so they, they basically 00:14:49.110 --> 00:14:51.269 induce you, but you're obviously going from, 00:14:51.470 --> 00:14:54.470 it's not like a normal induction for a full term. 00:14:54.789 --> 00:14:57.990 Um, it was, they basically give you some medication 00:14:57.990 --> 00:15:00.750 that encourages your body to bring on the contraction. 00:15:01.029 --> 00:15:05.519 So I had to, so I went home and, um, and then 00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:08.379 just got stuff together to stay overnight, obviously. 00:15:08.779 --> 00:15:12.259 And actually my best friend came over and she 00:15:12.259 --> 00:15:13.879 actually packed my hospital bag for me because 00:15:13.879 --> 00:15:16.779 I was literally just like, I can't even begin 00:15:16.779 --> 00:15:20.940 to think what I need to take. And then we went 00:15:20.940 --> 00:15:23.279 to hospital and my doula mat's there, but also 00:15:23.279 --> 00:15:25.860 I was in the, so it was at Thompson and I had 00:15:25.860 --> 00:15:29.080 my other two at NUH, so I'd actually changed 00:15:29.080 --> 00:15:35.970 doctors for summer. So I went, you don't give 00:15:35.970 --> 00:15:37.710 birth then in the labor ward, but you're on the 00:15:37.710 --> 00:15:41.029 maternity ward. So I was in this room and it 00:15:41.029 --> 00:15:43.409 was like right near to the nurse's station. I 00:15:43.409 --> 00:15:45.409 think they wanted me near the nurse's station, 00:15:45.570 --> 00:15:48.529 just in case of, because you have the medication, 00:15:48.730 --> 00:15:51.090 it takes quite a while. But I could hear these 00:15:51.090 --> 00:15:53.590 babies crying. And I said to one of the nurses, 00:15:53.710 --> 00:15:56.450 this is horrendous. It's so heartbreaking that 00:15:56.450 --> 00:15:59.029 I can hear these babies crying. And she kind 00:15:59.029 --> 00:16:03.000 of looked at me like, a bit like it hadn't even 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:05.220 dawned. Like they hadn't even thought about that. 00:16:05.320 --> 00:16:06.899 No one had ever brought that up before. I don't 00:16:06.899 --> 00:16:09.440 think they had. So then literally like, and I 00:16:09.440 --> 00:16:10.960 didn't make a big fuss. It was literally just 00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:13.220 a statement about how heartbreaking it was. And 00:16:13.220 --> 00:16:15.480 then about 15 minutes later, they came in and 00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:17.460 moved me to actually the suite, which was right 00:16:17.460 --> 00:16:20.320 at the other end and said it's to try and help 00:16:20.320 --> 00:16:23.350 with the noise and stuff. I think it's heartbreaking 00:16:23.350 --> 00:16:24.929 that you have to deliver where there's a bunch 00:16:24.929 --> 00:16:26.990 of other babies around, but I don't, I'm not 00:16:26.990 --> 00:16:29.090 entirely sure how they would do it. So, so yeah, 00:16:29.149 --> 00:16:31.470 so then that medication kind of, it took a while. 00:16:31.649 --> 00:16:33.970 It takes, like I said, a while. And this was 00:16:33.970 --> 00:16:38.070 probably about 7 PM. So then, yeah, so we tried 00:16:38.070 --> 00:16:41.029 to get to some sleep. My husband obviously stayed. 00:16:41.470 --> 00:16:45.649 My doula was nearby at her friend's house. And 00:16:45.649 --> 00:16:47.850 then yeah, we kind of, it started to ramp up. 00:16:48.120 --> 00:16:51.419 I'm a real fainter. So I was worried about fainting. 00:16:52.279 --> 00:16:55.519 And so I did start to feel a bit funny. And then 00:16:55.519 --> 00:16:57.379 actually it ended up happening quite quickly. 00:16:57.559 --> 00:17:01.379 So she was born at about 3am. And my doula had 00:17:01.379 --> 00:17:06.339 just got there, I think. And then Simon messaged 00:17:06.339 --> 00:17:09.160 my friend Kate and said that she'd just been 00:17:09.160 --> 00:17:15.529 born. And she came straight over. stay connected 00:17:15.529 --> 00:17:19.589 with with Summer's memory now? Is there anything 00:17:19.589 --> 00:17:23.009 you do now sort of obviously? Yeah, yeah. Like 00:17:23.009 --> 00:17:25.569 from since it happened to sort of stay connected? 00:17:25.690 --> 00:17:27.750 Yeah, so a lot of it has arisen kind of from 00:17:27.750 --> 00:17:30.049 stuff we did afterwards. So straight afterwards. 00:17:30.349 --> 00:17:33.150 So we did, Tanya also put me in touch with someone 00:17:33.150 --> 00:17:35.930 else who had lost her baby in a similar kind 00:17:35.930 --> 00:17:37.869 of stage and it had to go through the same thing. 00:17:38.430 --> 00:17:41.829 And so she was lovely and I messaged her and 00:17:41.829 --> 00:17:44.630 we actually spoke on the phone. And so she took 00:17:44.630 --> 00:17:46.710 me through the whole cremation and everything 00:17:46.710 --> 00:17:48.970 like that, because we obviously, cause that's 00:17:48.970 --> 00:17:50.509 also another thing I was like, well, what happens 00:17:50.509 --> 00:17:53.049 to the baby now? Like I don't want the baby to 00:17:53.049 --> 00:17:57.549 just like, what happens? Um, and so we had her 00:17:57.549 --> 00:17:59.910 cremated like a couple of days later, but just 00:17:59.910 --> 00:18:03.230 Simon and I did that together. So, um, so we 00:18:03.230 --> 00:18:07.210 have her ashes. So, um, we have that at home, 00:18:07.410 --> 00:18:10.029 um, just on our side, which, you know, like, 00:18:10.170 --> 00:18:12.470 so we kind of thought we might do something with 00:18:12.470 --> 00:18:15.220 her ashes, but. actually just as time has gone 00:18:15.220 --> 00:18:17.480 on, it's quite comforting to have her in the 00:18:17.480 --> 00:18:20.539 house. And then, you know, we did things like 00:18:20.539 --> 00:18:23.700 we did a lot of walking outside. I did a lot 00:18:23.700 --> 00:18:25.740 of walks. We lived near the Botanics at the time 00:18:25.740 --> 00:18:27.660 and I did a lot of walks in the Botanics. Simon 00:18:27.660 --> 00:18:31.519 and I did a lot of walking in McRitchie and we 00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:34.500 often in McRitchie would have little yellow butterfly, 00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:38.059 one walk in particular early on that like flew. 00:18:38.269 --> 00:18:40.569 the whole walk with us. And we were just like, 00:18:40.569 --> 00:18:43.930 wow, this is, she's here. Um, so that's a big 00:18:43.930 --> 00:18:45.930 part. Butterflies are a big part. And actually 00:18:45.930 --> 00:18:47.990 the house we live in now is in Mount Sinai, which 00:18:47.990 --> 00:18:50.390 is known as the butterfly state. So there's always 00:18:50.390 --> 00:18:52.769 yellow butterflies in the garden. So it was like, 00:18:52.769 --> 00:18:54.450 Oh, baby summer's here. And, you know, the kids 00:18:54.450 --> 00:18:57.450 will say baby summer's here. Um, so yeah, that 00:18:57.450 --> 00:19:00.730 was, there was just small things and she's also 00:19:00.730 --> 00:19:03.089 very much a part of our family. Like we have, 00:19:03.450 --> 00:19:05.130 uh, you know, there's an image that depicts our 00:19:05.130 --> 00:19:08.059 family and she's on it with little. angel wings 00:19:08.059 --> 00:19:12.279 over her name. Um, so people coming in would 00:19:12.279 --> 00:19:15.660 be aware of their being another child, not just 00:19:15.660 --> 00:19:18.119 the three that are actually physically present. 00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:20.779 I think. Yeah. So one of the things that we sort 00:19:20.779 --> 00:19:23.039 of talk about on this show is like the small 00:19:23.039 --> 00:19:26.160 choices that you can make just, you know, like 00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:28.759 how to nourish yourselves and how to get through 00:19:28.759 --> 00:19:32.900 the, the, the day to day what's happening. And 00:19:32.900 --> 00:19:35.240 I think that kind of. brings us into a question 00:19:35.240 --> 00:19:38.539 that our sponsor wants to ask you. And the meat 00:19:38.539 --> 00:19:42.059 club have asked, we hear nutrition plays a role 00:19:42.059 --> 00:19:44.900 in how we feel day -to -day from our own experience. 00:19:45.380 --> 00:19:47.960 How have things like food choices, daily routines 00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:50.960 made a difference in supporting your mental wellbeing 00:19:50.960 --> 00:19:53.640 through this grief? Yeah. So I think initially 00:19:53.640 --> 00:19:55.940 that was a big part, right? I literally just 00:19:55.940 --> 00:19:58.319 didn't want to eat. It was the last thing on 00:19:58.319 --> 00:20:01.859 my mind. And thankfully our amazing helper was 00:20:01.859 --> 00:20:04.619 taking care of the kids and all of that type 00:20:04.619 --> 00:20:07.480 of like looking after their welfare. Um, but 00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:11.700 yeah, the food was just not like at the forefront 00:20:11.700 --> 00:20:15.000 of my mind. Um, when Kate actually ordered delivery 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:19.720 one of the days to, uh, house for us with some 00:20:19.720 --> 00:20:21.440 noodles and stuff. But actually quite quickly 00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:24.700 after that, we had actually a meat delivery from 00:20:24.700 --> 00:20:26.619 the meat club because I was in their subscription 00:20:26.619 --> 00:20:29.079 service anyway. And I think knowing that you're 00:20:29.079 --> 00:20:32.480 having like good food, good meat coming from 00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:35.880 good sources and just nourishing your body properly 00:20:35.880 --> 00:20:39.339 was really helpful because definitely I'm really 00:20:39.339 --> 00:20:42.559 a firm believer that as soon as your nutrition 00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:44.759 goes off, you will feel it in your body straight 00:20:44.759 --> 00:20:47.529 away and it will then obviously. impact your 00:20:47.529 --> 00:20:50.170 mental health and general wellness? Speaking 00:20:50.170 --> 00:20:52.529 of mental health, I went through a miscarriage 00:20:52.529 --> 00:20:55.250 myself, but only at nine weeks. And it's a very 00:20:55.250 --> 00:20:57.690 different situation. You know, in no way do I 00:20:57.690 --> 00:20:59.829 mean this to be a parallel. The reason I bring 00:20:59.829 --> 00:21:03.259 it up is because when when you lose a baby at 00:21:03.259 --> 00:21:05.740 nine weeks, you don't know that baby yet. You 00:21:05.740 --> 00:21:08.460 know that you're pregnant, you have that kind 00:21:08.460 --> 00:21:10.019 of understanding that a life is coming through 00:21:10.019 --> 00:21:12.119 you, but it's a very different situation. I didn't 00:21:12.119 --> 00:21:14.160 know the gender of the baby, I didn't know, we 00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:15.720 hadn't even genetically tested, anything like 00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:20.059 that, right? So when you know your baby, does 00:21:20.059 --> 00:21:23.779 that impact how you know your next baby? Meaning, 00:21:24.400 --> 00:21:28.079 when you had Lulu. Was it always summer on your 00:21:28.079 --> 00:21:30.400 mind? How do you negotiate that new relationship? 00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:32.500 Yeah. And also so sorry about your miscarriage. 00:21:32.619 --> 00:21:35.160 Like how do you think that any loss at any stage 00:21:35.160 --> 00:21:38.740 is very deeply impactful on any woman and any 00:21:38.740 --> 00:21:43.099 man as well? Yeah. So with Lulu, so it's one 00:21:43.099 --> 00:21:45.759 of those things that I have a real difficulty. 00:21:45.819 --> 00:21:48.099 Like there's a real dissonance in my head about 00:21:48.099 --> 00:21:50.980 how to connect, like how to sit with the two. 00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:54.740 Because, you know, there's kind of a picture 00:21:54.740 --> 00:21:56.779 in my head. I mean, Summer would have been like 00:21:56.779 --> 00:21:59.099 the most amazing child. She's like perfect in 00:21:59.099 --> 00:22:01.680 every way. I think that's what we've built up 00:22:01.680 --> 00:22:04.759 in my head about the child that we lost. Um, 00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:07.140 and then obviously Lulu is not the most perfect, 00:22:08.900 --> 00:22:11.980 as actually any child is not. And in reality, 00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:13.720 Summer would not have been. So yeah, so it's 00:22:13.720 --> 00:22:16.880 kind of a funny thing, but I do. I do feel a 00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:18.779 connection to Summer in a different way that 00:22:18.779 --> 00:22:21.160 I do to Lulu, but they both kind of just sit 00:22:21.160 --> 00:22:23.859 together. And actually, interestingly, so my 00:22:23.859 --> 00:22:26.660 older two, who are now 12 and 10, have talked 00:22:26.660 --> 00:22:29.740 to Lulu about the baby sister that's not really 00:22:29.740 --> 00:22:31.359 for her a baby sister, because she would have 00:22:31.359 --> 00:22:35.480 been an older sister. And, you know, that's, 00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:38.440 it's really nice. And so they just talk about 00:22:38.440 --> 00:22:40.859 her and, you know, they are completely separate 00:22:40.859 --> 00:22:47.130 children in that way. So, yeah. But it's a weird 00:22:47.130 --> 00:22:50.150 one, like a really, it can't be tricky, I think, 00:22:50.150 --> 00:22:52.869 to think about. Were you able to feel joy when 00:22:52.869 --> 00:22:56.109 Lulu was born? 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Um, and they, 00:24:04.250 --> 00:24:07.049 um, so I didn't want to be at the hospital for 00:24:07.049 --> 00:24:10.769 very long because I just associated it with obviously 00:24:10.769 --> 00:24:15.109 giving birth to a dead baby. Um, and so I stayed 00:24:15.109 --> 00:24:17.230 at home for as long as I could. And I had, uh, 00:24:17.230 --> 00:24:19.569 Tanya had left Singapore by then. Um, and so 00:24:19.569 --> 00:24:22.390 I had a different, uh, doula, um, who was also 00:24:22.390 --> 00:24:24.769 wonderful. And, and so she, we stayed at home 00:24:24.769 --> 00:24:28.569 for a long time, got to hospital and I was. Actually, 00:24:28.569 --> 00:24:30.730 she was kind of saying to the midwives like, 00:24:31.069 --> 00:24:32.670 you know, she's probably going to give birth 00:24:32.670 --> 00:24:34.869 soon. And you know, they do all the signing in. 00:24:35.170 --> 00:24:37.490 They were asking things like about my medical 00:24:37.490 --> 00:24:39.910 history, have you had a miscarriage? Like all 00:24:39.910 --> 00:24:42.470 of that type of stuff that I was just like, I 00:24:42.470 --> 00:24:45.670 can't cope with this. Um, but then actually the 00:24:45.670 --> 00:24:48.069 worst part was when we got in, they put the, 00:24:48.190 --> 00:24:52.569 the, you know, the heartbeat, uh, yeah, on and 00:24:52.569 --> 00:24:57.059 they, it didn't pick up a heartbeat. So my dealer 00:24:57.059 --> 00:24:58.920 was saying to Simon, get her AirPods, get her 00:24:58.920 --> 00:25:01.299 AirPods, because there was a big... commotion 00:25:01.299 --> 00:25:02.779 about the fact they couldn't find the heartbeat. 00:25:02.920 --> 00:25:04.700 So in my head, I was like, this baby is also 00:25:04.700 --> 00:25:08.000 going to be born. Yeah, it was horrendous. And 00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:10.480 actually what it was, so, um, Emily and my doula 00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:13.000 pushed their belt thing down into, cause she 00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:15.059 was already in the birthing, you know? So they 00:25:15.059 --> 00:25:17.180 just had it in the wrong place, but it was a 00:25:17.180 --> 00:25:19.539 real panic. Yeah. So then when she was actually 00:25:19.539 --> 00:25:22.200 born, um, I mean, she was 4 .4 kilos. So that 00:25:22.200 --> 00:25:25.720 was mind blowing in itself. Okay. So she's, she 00:25:25.720 --> 00:25:28.279 gave out with a thunder. She was like a three 00:25:28.279 --> 00:25:32.880 month old. actually the same weight as my two, 00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:36.819 like my twins. We got our two big babies. So 00:25:36.819 --> 00:25:39.039 yeah, but just when they held, they put her in 00:25:39.039 --> 00:25:41.380 my arms, it was like all this relief from my 00:25:41.380 --> 00:25:46.019 body finally went away. Um, and yeah, it was, 00:25:46.119 --> 00:25:48.440 it was, it was a big relief. I can remember being 00:25:48.440 --> 00:25:51.079 in the car on the way home and just being like, 00:25:51.259 --> 00:25:53.680 Oh my God, thank God she is here. And thank God 00:25:53.680 --> 00:25:56.109 she is okay. Yeah. And the kids, when we went 00:25:56.109 --> 00:25:59.210 in, it was just lovely for them to enter the 00:25:59.210 --> 00:26:01.509 house. And they did come to the hospital to see 00:26:01.509 --> 00:26:03.970 her, actually. And they could finally understand. 00:26:04.950 --> 00:26:08.569 Yeah, and see that she was actually there. What 00:26:08.569 --> 00:26:11.829 was your sort of mental and emotional state like 00:26:11.829 --> 00:26:14.789 post Lulu's birth? Now, obviously you've come 00:26:14.789 --> 00:26:17.569 home now, you know, longer in the hospital and 00:26:17.569 --> 00:26:21.170 there you are with this baby. How was that for 00:26:21.170 --> 00:26:23.970 you? Like, were there the same type of fears 00:26:23.970 --> 00:26:28.490 that kept creeping up? Or did you feel that, 00:26:28.490 --> 00:26:30.609 you know, this was, you know, a different baby, 00:26:30.670 --> 00:26:33.410 a different chapter. How was it? Yeah. So I think 00:26:33.410 --> 00:26:37.759 I was not conscious of it. being of me being 00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:40.900 anxious, but there was definitely a huge anxiety. 00:26:41.059 --> 00:26:44.500 Um, and it was so probably that didn't start 00:26:44.500 --> 00:26:47.019 to creep in immediately, but I think probably 00:26:47.019 --> 00:26:49.099 after, you know, you've got such the hormone 00:26:49.099 --> 00:26:51.859 high and everything going on for the first, actually, 00:26:52.200 --> 00:26:53.940 I mean, it's obviously just a few days, like 00:26:53.940 --> 00:26:56.160 a few days, but you know, kind of lasts for a 00:26:56.160 --> 00:27:00.559 while. Um, and then I think that as we kind of 00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:02.900 went back to normal and she was slotting into 00:27:02.900 --> 00:27:05.980 our life, um, I, we also had a really tragic 00:27:05.980 --> 00:27:09.079 event happen in, we owned some F45 gyms at the 00:27:09.079 --> 00:27:11.059 time and we had a tragic event happen in the 00:27:11.059 --> 00:27:14.160 gym that kind of, um, tipped me over the edge 00:27:14.160 --> 00:27:18.940 in terms of anxiety. Um, and I, this was when 00:27:18.940 --> 00:27:21.660 she was about 10 weeks old and I quite quickly 00:27:21.660 --> 00:27:25.250 descended into really quite. bad postnatal anxiety. 00:27:26.109 --> 00:27:29.250 And then that kind of turned into depression 00:27:29.250 --> 00:27:34.009 as well later on. And how did you sort of help? 00:27:34.049 --> 00:27:36.809 How did you help yourself during that sort of 00:27:36.809 --> 00:27:40.259 that? that phase then, if it was depression, 00:27:40.599 --> 00:27:43.079 like how did you try to manage that? Or was somebody 00:27:43.079 --> 00:27:45.640 else there, like your partner, for example, sort 00:27:45.640 --> 00:27:47.519 of trying to give you the support and encouragement? 00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:50.460 Yeah. So it was, yeah, so Simon was amazing. 00:27:50.559 --> 00:27:54.500 He took some time off work and really tried to 00:27:54.500 --> 00:27:57.400 help me. I had, it really presented for me the 00:27:57.400 --> 00:28:02.200 anxiety initially presented as vertigo. Um, so 00:28:02.200 --> 00:28:04.200 I was kind of running around going to all different 00:28:04.200 --> 00:28:06.380 medical appointments and trying to see if there 00:28:06.380 --> 00:28:08.980 was an underlying cause until it was eventually 00:28:08.980 --> 00:28:12.859 like, um, yeah, this is definitely, um, there's 00:28:12.859 --> 00:28:15.200 nothing, there's no other kind of cause that 00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:18.119 it could be. Um, so actually then they offered 00:28:18.119 --> 00:28:21.180 me, um, antidepressants for, cause obviously 00:28:21.180 --> 00:28:23.700 like also works on the anxiety. And my main thing 00:28:23.700 --> 00:28:26.420 was that I could, I had terrible insomnia, so 00:28:26.420 --> 00:28:31.170 I couldn't sleep, um, at all. Um, and so that 00:28:31.170 --> 00:28:33.490 obviously quite quickly impacts on the anxiety 00:28:33.490 --> 00:28:36.950 and then onto the mode. Um, so I did, I went 00:28:36.950 --> 00:28:39.730 onto antidepressants, which helped me. They were 00:28:39.730 --> 00:28:42.950 quite as a dating type, so dating at night. Um, 00:28:43.069 --> 00:28:46.170 so they really helped me to sleep. Um, and then 00:28:46.170 --> 00:28:48.410 yeah, that was a very long journey afterwards. 00:28:48.650 --> 00:28:52.890 Um, I didn't. Later on, I didn't love the antidepressants 00:28:52.890 --> 00:28:55.109 because I felt that they were very blunting on 00:28:55.109 --> 00:28:58.910 me emotionally. Um, so then I was in this cycle 00:28:58.910 --> 00:29:01.349 of wanting to come off them, but not being able 00:29:01.349 --> 00:29:05.450 to sleep. So it was a very big journey. Um, eventually 00:29:05.450 --> 00:29:07.690 after two years, actually, so when Lilla was 00:29:07.690 --> 00:29:11.609 two, I probably looked more, finally decided 00:29:11.609 --> 00:29:14.769 to look more into the hormone side. And like 00:29:14.769 --> 00:29:16.630 I say, I was very in touch with my body. I'd 00:29:16.630 --> 00:29:20.250 felt like it was that, but, um. it wasn't being 00:29:20.250 --> 00:29:24.569 medically validated in that way. And also for 00:29:24.569 --> 00:29:25.970 the first year I was still breastfeeding. So 00:29:25.970 --> 00:29:27.450 you can't really do anything about it almost 00:29:27.450 --> 00:29:31.250 then. And eventually it was discovered that my 00:29:31.250 --> 00:29:34.470 progesterone was like rock bottom, like none 00:29:34.470 --> 00:29:38.309 in my body, which is your natural anti -anxiety 00:29:38.309 --> 00:29:42.390 in terms of internally, right? And then so I 00:29:42.390 --> 00:29:44.509 started supplementing with progesterone and I... 00:29:46.049 --> 00:29:48.390 But not straight away, like two or three months 00:29:48.390 --> 00:29:51.950 and I was back to me. So was there like, so you're 00:29:51.950 --> 00:29:55.970 off the SSRIs now? Yeah. Yeah. And so with the 00:29:55.970 --> 00:29:58.069 progesterone, that was enough to? Yeah. Okay. 00:29:58.309 --> 00:30:00.349 Amazing. And then I, but I also, the important 00:30:00.349 --> 00:30:03.569 part for me was that I felt more back to me. 00:30:03.589 --> 00:30:05.970 I was then able to taper off the antidepressants 00:30:05.970 --> 00:30:10.930 because I was stable again. And then it also 00:30:10.930 --> 00:30:13.029 meant that I felt back to me in terms of my mood 00:30:13.029 --> 00:30:15.150 and everything because the emotional blunting 00:30:15.150 --> 00:30:17.910 had all gone. And antidepressants can obviously 00:30:17.910 --> 00:30:20.250 be very effective for a lot of people. I didn't 00:30:20.250 --> 00:30:24.109 love them for me. And yes, it was, and also hormones 00:30:24.109 --> 00:30:26.150 might not be the solution for everyone in that 00:30:26.150 --> 00:30:28.329 situation, but it certainly was the solution 00:30:28.329 --> 00:30:31.390 for me. And you talked about kind of, you had 00:30:31.390 --> 00:30:33.490 a sense that there was something hormonal off 00:30:33.490 --> 00:30:36.829 with you. You were feeling invalidated by certain 00:30:36.829 --> 00:30:39.430 providers. How did you finally advocate to the 00:30:39.430 --> 00:30:41.190 provider who helped you with the progesterone? 00:30:41.250 --> 00:30:44.089 Yeah, so I think that was... I actually ended 00:30:44.089 --> 00:30:47.450 up... Because I'd been saying that I wanted to 00:30:47.450 --> 00:30:51.589 have my hormones checked and not really... The 00:30:51.589 --> 00:30:53.029 doctor I was seeing at the time wanted me to 00:30:53.029 --> 00:30:56.809 get my brain sorted before my body. And I... 00:30:56.839 --> 00:30:59.359 felt, like I say, I felt that it was my hormones. 00:30:59.500 --> 00:31:01.559 And then eventually I had an appointment with, 00:31:01.559 --> 00:31:03.440 um, I mean, I'm sure you're familiar on this 00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:06.220 podcast with Louise Newson, the hormone doctor 00:31:06.220 --> 00:31:08.460 in the UK. So actually when I was in the UK, 00:31:08.640 --> 00:31:12.460 I did an online call with her clinic. Um, and 00:31:12.460 --> 00:31:15.559 so they, from what we discussed, they basically 00:31:15.559 --> 00:31:18.240 were like, yeah, I think you should look into 00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:20.759 hormone treatment. And then I decided to go to 00:31:20.759 --> 00:31:23.420 another doctor here who is more known as a hormone 00:31:23.420 --> 00:31:25.319 specialist. And she was the one that did the 00:31:25.319 --> 00:31:27.539 blood tests. I was going to say, so they kind 00:31:27.539 --> 00:31:30.740 of nuanced progesterone insufficiency from the 00:31:30.740 --> 00:31:34.079 call. Well, not necessarily progesterone insufficiency, 00:31:34.099 --> 00:31:37.890 but more... hormones imbalanced. Yeah. Yeah. 00:31:37.930 --> 00:31:39.609 So they kind of were the voice that validated 00:31:39.609 --> 00:31:41.910 that is going on. And actually they did send 00:31:41.910 --> 00:31:44.750 me, they put me on the standard, uh, estrogen 00:31:44.750 --> 00:31:47.369 progesterone mix that you would get for perimenopause. 00:31:47.769 --> 00:31:50.109 Although, and although she was very much like, 00:31:50.269 --> 00:31:51.509 you see, you're probably a bit young because 00:31:51.509 --> 00:31:54.049 at that time I was probably 42. So she said, 00:31:54.089 --> 00:31:55.569 you are probably a bit young. Yes, we're all 00:31:55.569 --> 00:32:00.490 very young. But then And then actually when I 00:32:00.490 --> 00:32:04.109 went to see this hormone doctor in here, she 00:32:04.109 --> 00:32:06.250 was like, I can see from looking at you, you 00:32:06.250 --> 00:32:09.690 don't need estrogen. So take that out and you 00:32:09.690 --> 00:32:11.750 probably just need the progesterone. And it was, 00:32:11.950 --> 00:32:14.309 and actually since then I've listened, there's 00:32:14.309 --> 00:32:16.329 some, I looked through the podcasts with Louise 00:32:16.329 --> 00:32:19.029 Newsome and there's some of her podcasts on supplementing 00:32:19.029 --> 00:32:22.259 progesterone in postnatal depression. And the 00:32:22.259 --> 00:32:24.279 fact that it can be, and this, the doctor that 00:32:24.279 --> 00:32:26.819 I saw here, uh, she said, yeah, you have had, 00:32:27.140 --> 00:32:30.200 you have none of your natural anti -anxiety in 00:32:30.200 --> 00:32:31.940 your body. So it's no wonder you're feeling the 00:32:31.940 --> 00:32:34.250 way you're feeling. Yeah. Well, they always say, 00:32:34.349 --> 00:32:37.009 right, that postpartum, the symptoms and feelings 00:32:37.009 --> 00:32:40.630 that you have are your best window into your 00:32:40.630 --> 00:32:42.390 own medical. It's like, that's going to be your 00:32:42.390 --> 00:32:45.210 first clue of what it's like to crash, right? 00:32:46.130 --> 00:32:48.789 So it's, you literally kind of had a couple of 00:32:48.789 --> 00:32:50.829 events there. Yeah, and it was also interesting 00:32:50.829 --> 00:32:52.829 for me that I didn't experience that in any of 00:32:52.829 --> 00:32:55.009 my other pregnancies, but I honestly think, so 00:32:55.009 --> 00:32:58.250 when I had Lulu, I was like 10 days off my 41st 00:32:58.250 --> 00:33:01.049 birthday. And I honestly think that... having 00:33:01.049 --> 00:33:04.190 a baby in your forties is a whole different ball 00:33:04.190 --> 00:33:06.690 game. Yes, it is. Not just from being more tired 00:33:06.690 --> 00:33:09.430 and busy, but actually from the hormones are 00:33:09.430 --> 00:33:11.349 already starting to decline. Yeah. I mean, I 00:33:11.349 --> 00:33:13.849 had that with the twins. So like soon after twins 00:33:13.849 --> 00:33:15.809 were born, I didn't realize that my symptoms 00:33:15.809 --> 00:33:19.099 were actually perimenopause. Yeah. postpartum. 00:33:19.319 --> 00:33:21.220 I mean, I guess they were both, you know, they 00:33:21.220 --> 00:33:24.960 coincide. And it wasn't until, you know, like 00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:26.759 I, I started getting the hot flushes. I think 00:33:26.759 --> 00:33:29.359 had I not had those, I probably would have gotten 00:33:29.359 --> 00:33:31.339 another couple of years before realizing that 00:33:31.339 --> 00:33:33.619 something was wrong. And it was. purely because 00:33:33.619 --> 00:33:36.599 I had that, and I kind of associated that with 00:33:36.599 --> 00:33:38.559 menopause. I thought, oh, shit, I better get 00:33:38.559 --> 00:33:42.680 it checked out. I was 37, you know? So that wasn't... 00:33:42.680 --> 00:33:44.519 And when you initially say it, the first thing 00:33:44.519 --> 00:33:47.059 everyone says is, oh, you're too young. Yeah, 00:33:47.799 --> 00:33:51.079 it can happen any time. So, Amanda, you know 00:33:51.079 --> 00:33:52.539 how I've been on this journey about improving 00:33:52.539 --> 00:33:54.359 my sleep? Oh, you have been obsessed about it 00:33:54.359 --> 00:33:57.759 lately. Well, I have found something that has 00:33:57.759 --> 00:34:01.359 been incredible. Cozy Earth bed sheets. Ooh, 00:34:01.480 --> 00:34:03.339 that's saying a lot because you are really picky 00:34:03.339 --> 00:34:05.660 about your sleep setup. Exactly. These sheets 00:34:05.660 --> 00:34:08.199 are made from bamboo viscose. They are naturally 00:34:08.199 --> 00:34:11.440 breathable and I get the perfect night's sleep. 00:34:11.760 --> 00:34:14.679 They keep me cool all night. Oh, and I've been 00:34:14.679 --> 00:34:17.099 eyeing the pajamas too. They are so chic and 00:34:17.099 --> 00:34:20.179 super cozy. It's a total game changer and so 00:34:20.179 --> 00:34:22.860 relaxing for the evenings. And what's crazy is 00:34:22.860 --> 00:34:25.000 that Cozy Earth actually ships to Singapore, 00:34:25.360 --> 00:34:29.159 orders over $560 ship free, and in the US orders 00:34:29.159 --> 00:34:31.679 over $50 ship free. And did you know you can 00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:35.820 get your biggest ever discount 41 % if you use 00:34:35.820 --> 00:34:40.079 code TFF today. So head over to CozyEarth .com 00:34:40.079 --> 00:34:42.989 and use that code TFF today. I hate to bring 00:34:42.989 --> 00:34:45.510 us back to the grief discussion, but something 00:34:45.510 --> 00:34:47.590 that I can't help but keep thinking about. So 00:34:47.590 --> 00:34:51.809 when you came home after delivery summer, your 00:34:51.809 --> 00:34:54.369 kids were five and three. That's the exact age 00:34:54.369 --> 00:34:57.889 of my older two right now. Yeah, yeah. It's full 00:34:57.889 --> 00:35:01.349 on. Yeah. Meaning as in touch and emotionally 00:35:01.349 --> 00:35:03.789 beautiful as they are, there's certain things 00:35:03.789 --> 00:35:05.550 they can't, their cognition would not allow, 00:35:05.889 --> 00:35:07.590 right? Yeah, yeah. Potentially to understand 00:35:07.590 --> 00:35:10.349 how the enormity of what this loss was for mom. 00:35:10.369 --> 00:35:13.849 Yeah, yeah. How were you able to carry out the 00:35:13.849 --> 00:35:18.030 duties of parenting two kids at that age while 00:35:18.030 --> 00:35:20.730 also handling your own? What did you hold on 00:35:20.730 --> 00:35:22.769 to? To be honest, I'm not sure I really did. 00:35:23.449 --> 00:35:25.909 Definitely not for the first few weeks, I think. 00:35:26.349 --> 00:35:28.389 And also because it was over Christmas and we 00:35:28.389 --> 00:35:30.389 had been going away, so my husband was not at 00:35:30.389 --> 00:35:33.289 work. And then because my parents -in -law were 00:35:33.289 --> 00:35:36.010 here as well. So they took the kids out a bit. 00:35:36.110 --> 00:35:40.099 Kate took the kids a lot. Um, because also, like 00:35:40.099 --> 00:35:42.480 you say that they couldn't understand it fully 00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:45.139 and they were very caring and very, you know, 00:35:45.139 --> 00:35:47.679 I was in bed a reasonable amount. I wasn't really 00:35:47.679 --> 00:35:50.960 doing much. Um, and they were very, you know, 00:35:50.960 --> 00:35:52.539 they would give me cuddles, but the next minute 00:35:52.539 --> 00:35:55.260 they're fighting and I could not cope with the 00:35:55.260 --> 00:35:58.659 fighting. So, um, it was helpful to have people 00:35:58.659 --> 00:36:01.840 like just come and take the children at a time 00:36:01.840 --> 00:36:05.500 when I just needed Simon to myself. Like that's 00:36:05.500 --> 00:36:07.320 also what I needed. You know, that was part of 00:36:07.320 --> 00:36:09.940 it. they were taking him away from me when I 00:36:09.940 --> 00:36:14.519 needed him. Um, and so we were very, and I was 00:36:14.519 --> 00:36:16.619 able to be very gentle on myself and be accepting 00:36:16.619 --> 00:36:18.420 of that. And that it didn't make me a terrible 00:36:18.420 --> 00:36:20.800 mother, um, because I think it would be so easy 00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:24.360 to go to that place. Um, but yeah, I was able 00:36:24.360 --> 00:36:26.960 to be quite selfish. Um, and then even further 00:36:26.960 --> 00:36:32.920 down the line, I think they, They really pick 00:36:32.920 --> 00:36:36.420 up on how I am feeling, maybe too much, I don't 00:36:36.420 --> 00:36:40.420 know, sometimes. So they would be gentle around 00:36:40.420 --> 00:36:44.219 me. But then they would also see that I was able, 00:36:44.219 --> 00:36:46.019 I think it was important for them to see that 00:36:46.019 --> 00:36:48.159 I was able to still smile and it's still okay 00:36:48.159 --> 00:36:51.280 to be happy when you're grieving. It was an important 00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:53.739 lesson in grief for them, probably a little bit 00:36:53.739 --> 00:36:57.500 too young, but life happens and we have to understand 00:36:57.500 --> 00:37:00.590 that. is the, you know, it's, it's the fragility 00:37:00.590 --> 00:37:04.150 of life, right? Yeah. What's one thing you wish 00:37:04.150 --> 00:37:08.010 other people would, would know about someone 00:37:08.010 --> 00:37:11.769 going through or through your experience? Like 00:37:11.769 --> 00:37:13.329 what's something that you would like to tell 00:37:13.329 --> 00:37:16.510 other people who haven't gone through this that 00:37:16.510 --> 00:37:18.989 you really would like them to kind of understand 00:37:18.989 --> 00:37:21.750 from your perspective? Yeah. I think that, I 00:37:21.750 --> 00:37:25.050 think one of the big things for me, um, was I 00:37:25.050 --> 00:37:27.980 didn't want to I really needed people to reach 00:37:27.980 --> 00:37:31.659 out to me. Um, and we were very public in terms 00:37:31.659 --> 00:37:34.860 of, because we also had the two gyms at the time. 00:37:35.139 --> 00:37:38.079 Um, and so we were quite conscious that we, I 00:37:38.079 --> 00:37:39.659 really, one of my biggest things was I didn't 00:37:39.659 --> 00:37:42.300 want to meet people in the street or go to my 00:37:42.300 --> 00:37:46.179 gym and people be like, Oh, how's the baby or 00:37:46.179 --> 00:37:49.019 Oh, like where's the baby. So I just didn't want 00:37:49.019 --> 00:37:51.019 to have to do any of that in person, which is 00:37:51.019 --> 00:37:54.679 why we were quite. open about it. But we also 00:37:54.679 --> 00:37:56.219 didn't want people to not feel like they could 00:37:56.219 --> 00:37:58.119 talk to us about it. I think that's one of the 00:37:58.119 --> 00:38:00.039 biggest things. So there's a beautiful book as 00:38:00.039 --> 00:38:03.500 well that I read. And it's called, I think it's 00:38:03.500 --> 00:38:06.699 called Say His Name or Say Their Name or something 00:38:06.699 --> 00:38:11.099 like that. And it talks about how it's like, 00:38:11.239 --> 00:38:13.280 just say their name. Like that's probably one 00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:14.639 of the biggest things you want for your child 00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:17.519 that you've lost is for people to remember that. 00:38:18.190 --> 00:38:21.969 child was so important to you, you know? And 00:38:21.969 --> 00:38:24.170 so even now, like when people talk about her, 00:38:24.210 --> 00:38:27.030 it really touches me very deeply. And so that 00:38:27.030 --> 00:38:28.869 was the thing. I wanted people to reach out to 00:38:28.869 --> 00:38:30.610 me, but I also didn't want to feel the pressure 00:38:30.610 --> 00:38:33.230 to have to respond. So I was really grateful 00:38:33.230 --> 00:38:34.989 to those people that reached out. And then even 00:38:34.989 --> 00:38:37.070 if I didn't reply, just kept reaching out. So 00:38:37.070 --> 00:38:39.650 I would definitely say that for, and with any 00:38:39.650 --> 00:38:42.690 grief, right? Also, I had a couple of friends 00:38:42.690 --> 00:38:46.809 who sent me like Ted talks about grief and then 00:38:46.809 --> 00:38:50.360 a Ted talk about violence. and all of that stuff 00:38:50.360 --> 00:38:53.519 really touched me. Another friend sent me a gorgeous 00:38:53.519 --> 00:38:57.199 key ring that was kind of customized to summer. 00:38:58.440 --> 00:39:00.280 So yeah, I think it's really important to let 00:39:00.280 --> 00:39:03.400 them know that you're there. There's also something 00:39:03.400 --> 00:39:05.119 else I've seen more recently about grief and 00:39:05.119 --> 00:39:07.630 I think it's really spot on. It's like... How 00:39:07.630 --> 00:39:09.690 do you ask? I think people shy away from the 00:39:09.690 --> 00:39:12.210 conversations because it feels too big. And also 00:39:12.210 --> 00:39:14.130 there's a bit of not wanting to upset someone, 00:39:14.130 --> 00:39:16.170 right? But actually I found it more upsetting 00:39:16.170 --> 00:39:18.110 if people didn't mention it, because then I just 00:39:18.110 --> 00:39:20.750 felt like they didn't care. And it's almost like, 00:39:20.769 --> 00:39:23.969 I think I put in my post like, please ask us 00:39:23.969 --> 00:39:26.590 about her, our tears may flow in front of you, 00:39:26.710 --> 00:39:28.949 but we're so grateful to you for talking about 00:39:28.949 --> 00:39:32.670 it. And yeah, this post I saw recently was like, 00:39:33.300 --> 00:39:35.619 It's actually quite helpful to not say things 00:39:35.619 --> 00:39:37.400 like, how are you doing? Because that's such 00:39:37.400 --> 00:39:39.400 a massive question. Someone in the middle of 00:39:39.400 --> 00:39:43.099 grief is doing pretty shit. Right. Um, but questions 00:39:43.099 --> 00:39:45.460 like how did school drop off go today? Like, 00:39:45.760 --> 00:39:48.119 how are you coping when you need to feed the 00:39:48.119 --> 00:39:50.559 children? How are you coping when you see go 00:39:50.559 --> 00:39:53.349 into a cafe and you see. baby in a pram, like 00:39:53.349 --> 00:39:57.090 that sort of thing was so hard for me in the 00:39:57.090 --> 00:39:59.829 aftermath. And also I think just being gentle 00:39:59.829 --> 00:40:02.489 with someone around, you know, one of my really 00:40:02.489 --> 00:40:04.329 good friends was leaving Singapore just after 00:40:04.329 --> 00:40:06.230 we lost Summer. And it was the first time I went 00:40:06.230 --> 00:40:08.369 out, she was just having drinks, a really small 00:40:08.369 --> 00:40:11.449 group, so really close friends. And I got there 00:40:11.449 --> 00:40:13.789 and I was just like, I can't stay, I can't stay. 00:40:14.909 --> 00:40:17.179 And we just left. And actually, I just went to 00:40:17.179 --> 00:40:18.880 the bathroom. I said to someone, I can't stay. 00:40:19.019 --> 00:40:20.619 You need to go and tell them. And then we just 00:40:20.619 --> 00:40:22.460 left. So just being understanding about that. 00:40:22.699 --> 00:40:26.260 I was like the flakiest friend in the world for 00:40:26.260 --> 00:40:28.860 a good like six months to a year. Probably longer 00:40:28.860 --> 00:40:30.480 than that. I think we're very understanding. 00:40:31.320 --> 00:40:33.539 Yeah. You know, we just had a conversation on 00:40:33.539 --> 00:40:35.460 this podcast about female friendships. Yeah. 00:40:35.780 --> 00:40:37.659 And a lot of it was about reciprocity and kind 00:40:37.659 --> 00:40:39.579 of reevaluating relationships. But I think what 00:40:39.579 --> 00:40:42.719 you're saying. to reach out, provide support, 00:40:42.760 --> 00:40:46.599 without expectation. This is not a time for transaction 00:40:46.599 --> 00:40:48.960 or friendship. This is not a time for you to 00:40:48.960 --> 00:40:51.239 need something from that person, but it's also 00:40:51.239 --> 00:40:54.480 not a time to just abandon. I think that's tough. 00:40:54.800 --> 00:40:56.980 And also not a time to think badly of someone 00:40:56.980 --> 00:40:59.360 if they, at the last minute, are like, I just 00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:01.719 can't come tonight. I just can't do it. Or if 00:41:01.719 --> 00:41:03.800 they come and they go. Yeah, exactly. Like you 00:41:03.800 --> 00:41:06.559 were testing your own limits there. I don't think 00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:09.579 you intended to go and leave, but it became so 00:41:09.579 --> 00:41:11.619 clear that you couldn't stay. And in that situation, 00:41:11.800 --> 00:41:15.440 it's not about them. It's 100 % about you. It's 00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:17.559 something that you can't do and it's not because 00:41:17.559 --> 00:41:21.079 you can't be... that friend, it's just because 00:41:21.079 --> 00:41:23.840 it's just too much to handle. And I think that's 00:41:23.840 --> 00:41:26.119 one of the gifts that Summer has given me, is 00:41:26.119 --> 00:41:29.059 to be understanding with myself and to be a lot 00:41:29.059 --> 00:41:33.320 more selfish, if I'm honest. Yeah. Jane, something 00:41:33.320 --> 00:41:35.679 that I found really difficult after my loss was 00:41:35.679 --> 00:41:39.059 the decision or even, I guess, the opportunity, 00:41:39.420 --> 00:41:41.940 weird way to say it, to have another child. Yeah, 00:41:42.039 --> 00:41:45.639 yeah. How did you stay open to that opportunity? 00:41:45.679 --> 00:41:47.360 Yeah. You've gone through that massive loss. 00:41:47.500 --> 00:41:50.820 Yeah, that was tough. Um, I think to be honest, 00:41:51.019 --> 00:41:54.019 it's cemented the, so the decision to have a 00:41:54.019 --> 00:41:58.519 third child was, um, was kind of one that was, 00:41:58.519 --> 00:42:02.219 I don't know, in a very, like, we didn't think 00:42:02.219 --> 00:42:05.739 about it in a big way. Um, so Simon's is from 00:42:05.739 --> 00:42:08.300 one of three. I'm one of two. So to me in my 00:42:08.300 --> 00:42:10.880 head, the idea of having two and, you know, everyone's 00:42:10.880 --> 00:42:13.190 like, you have a boy and a girl. perfect family. 00:42:13.829 --> 00:42:16.949 Um, but I could tell that he really wanted a 00:42:16.949 --> 00:42:20.789 third. Um, and I actually, like, I actually was 00:42:20.789 --> 00:42:23.170 really definitely open to it and quite happy 00:42:23.170 --> 00:42:25.050 too. So that was kind of why we decided then 00:42:25.050 --> 00:42:26.869 to have a third, but it was a little bit like, 00:42:27.130 --> 00:42:29.409 Oh my God, have we even put, when I got pregnant 00:42:29.409 --> 00:42:31.809 with Summer, I was a bit like, have we put enough 00:42:31.809 --> 00:42:33.309 thought into this? Like, is this really what 00:42:33.309 --> 00:42:35.449 we want? So there was a little bit of like uncertainty, 00:42:35.449 --> 00:42:37.909 which actually I felt very guilty about that. 00:42:37.949 --> 00:42:39.929 Then when, when we lost her, that was very difficult 00:42:39.929 --> 00:42:43.920 to process. Um, And then, but then it really 00:42:43.920 --> 00:42:46.719 cemented that we did want another child, um, 00:42:46.719 --> 00:42:50.019 when we then decided to have Lolo. Um, so yeah, 00:42:50.099 --> 00:42:53.760 so it was, it was kind of a, but then, like I 00:42:53.760 --> 00:42:56.019 say, we then went on a journey where it was difficult 00:42:56.019 --> 00:42:57.599 to get pregnant, which was something that was 00:42:57.599 --> 00:43:00.380 very new to me, but I honestly think that my 00:43:00.380 --> 00:43:03.440 body was just still grieving. I mean, we probably 00:43:03.440 --> 00:43:05.980 started trying in like the April, so like four 00:43:05.980 --> 00:43:10.949 months after and, um, I think the fact that we, 00:43:11.190 --> 00:43:13.150 my body, I think my body would just wasn't ready. 00:43:13.469 --> 00:43:15.789 And although I thought mentally, I thought I 00:43:15.789 --> 00:43:18.710 was, um, my body was like, nah, you're not ready. 00:43:19.010 --> 00:43:21.510 And then I got pregnant in the, um, December, 00:43:21.510 --> 00:43:25.090 um, or probably end of November. But, um, yeah, 00:43:25.349 --> 00:43:27.670 it was, and it was clearly that my body was ready 00:43:27.670 --> 00:43:30.630 then. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, they 00:43:30.630 --> 00:43:32.849 say that the sort of the stress, the grief that 00:43:32.849 --> 00:43:35.369 will obviously affect your hormone levels, your 00:43:35.369 --> 00:43:37.630 testosterone levels as well. So, you know, that 00:43:37.630 --> 00:43:41.650 probably was a sign that at the time your body 00:43:41.650 --> 00:43:45.010 was still stressed from what had happened prior 00:43:45.010 --> 00:43:49.710 to that. Now, is there anything you would like 00:43:49.710 --> 00:43:53.670 to say to somebody who is going or has gone through? 00:43:53.920 --> 00:43:56.840 the same experience you have. Yeah. So I would 00:43:56.840 --> 00:43:58.800 say that, so one of the really, the big things 00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:00.679 that really helped me was actually listening 00:44:00.679 --> 00:44:05.900 to podcasts. Um, I, I spent a lot of time going 00:44:05.900 --> 00:44:11.400 on walks. Um, I just really, it was quite solitary 00:44:11.400 --> 00:44:14.480 in that respect, but it was really what I needed. 00:44:14.900 --> 00:44:18.750 So I would say podcasts help. books. I Instagram, 00:44:18.769 --> 00:44:21.750 I connected with people that had also, you know, 00:44:21.769 --> 00:44:24.070 I found accounts that people had lost babies 00:44:24.070 --> 00:44:25.949 and I connected with those people. There were 00:44:25.949 --> 00:44:28.829 a few people that I messaged for a long time 00:44:28.829 --> 00:44:33.510 afterwards. So finding people, to me it was important 00:44:33.510 --> 00:44:35.610 to have people that really deeply understood 00:44:35.610 --> 00:44:38.630 the actual loss. I met, you know, randomly people 00:44:38.630 --> 00:44:40.530 put me in touch with people who'd gone through 00:44:40.530 --> 00:44:43.369 a similar thing. That was all really helpful. 00:44:44.570 --> 00:44:47.699 But I would also just like be really gentle on 00:44:47.699 --> 00:44:50.840 yourself. Don't put pressure on trying to get 00:44:50.840 --> 00:44:53.559 over it. Like, you know, you're never going to 00:44:53.559 --> 00:44:56.079 get over it. So like there should be no expectation 00:44:56.079 --> 00:45:01.400 to and really take your time. And like, yeah, 00:45:01.559 --> 00:45:03.840 I just think that is such a big thing now. I 00:45:03.840 --> 00:45:06.139 just have really slowed down in terms of any 00:45:06.139 --> 00:45:09.420 expectations on my own mental health from summer 00:45:09.420 --> 00:45:11.780 and also from the journey I went through with 00:45:11.780 --> 00:45:14.260 Lolo as well. And you mentioned earlier about 00:45:14.260 --> 00:45:16.500 nutrition and diet, right? And how that really 00:45:16.500 --> 00:45:19.079 kind of, when your nutrition is in order, you 00:45:19.079 --> 00:45:21.420 can start to see a path emerge. And I think the 00:45:21.420 --> 00:45:24.480 same is true for social media diet in that sense, 00:45:24.619 --> 00:45:26.800 right? It's like, I keep thinking about you and 00:45:26.800 --> 00:45:29.199 the maternity ward delivering that baby, hearing 00:45:29.199 --> 00:45:33.280 other babies. And it's like, why would you surround 00:45:33.280 --> 00:45:34.739 yourself with that if you had a choice? Meaning 00:45:34.739 --> 00:45:36.960 you didn't at that point. So similar thing with 00:45:36.960 --> 00:45:39.539 social media, like surround yourself with the 00:45:39.539 --> 00:45:43.699 voices that will support and comfort you. Don't 00:45:43.699 --> 00:45:45.519 put yourself in situations that will obviously... 00:45:45.519 --> 00:45:47.619 I have to say, it's one of those things that 00:45:47.619 --> 00:45:51.090 actually caused... a little bit of friction between 00:45:51.090 --> 00:45:53.809 me and my husband. Um, and although like, you 00:45:53.809 --> 00:45:56.610 know, he was so amazing in such a rock for me, 00:45:56.969 --> 00:45:59.150 but then as he, you know, the thing as well with 00:45:59.150 --> 00:46:00.909 grief as well, it's so hard because life goes 00:46:00.909 --> 00:46:04.329 back to normal. Right. And It's so tricky when 00:46:04.329 --> 00:46:06.530 life does go back to normal because you're just 00:46:06.530 --> 00:46:09.130 like, no, hold on, I'm still in this. Like, why 00:46:09.130 --> 00:46:11.150 does, I just remember feeling like I just want 00:46:11.150 --> 00:46:13.670 time to stand still. And it was also difficult 00:46:13.670 --> 00:46:15.289 because we went, because of the timing of it. 00:46:15.429 --> 00:46:17.690 So we went into a new year, like straight, but 00:46:17.690 --> 00:46:20.110 she was born on the 27th of December. So like, 00:46:20.210 --> 00:46:21.769 it was so quickly into a new year. And I was 00:46:21.769 --> 00:46:24.340 just like, but she's not. in this year now, like 00:46:24.340 --> 00:46:28.460 it was so hard. Um, and I think that, but, but 00:46:28.460 --> 00:46:30.880 then, so Simon had gone back to work and I remember 00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:33.559 one day he came home from work and I was, I was 00:46:33.559 --> 00:46:35.679 working as a lawyer at the time as well as the 00:46:35.679 --> 00:46:39.280 gyms. So I had, but I had a date that I was finishing 00:46:39.280 --> 00:46:41.969 and they had, um, I was on a contract, so they 00:46:41.969 --> 00:46:44.610 had replaced me. Um, so I actually was going 00:46:44.610 --> 00:46:46.750 back to work, but, um, I hadn't quite gone back 00:46:46.750 --> 00:46:48.230 at that point. I was only going back for like 00:46:48.230 --> 00:46:51.070 a month. Um, but he came back from work one day 00:46:51.070 --> 00:46:53.170 and I was, I was cooking dinner and I was listening 00:46:53.170 --> 00:46:56.130 to a podcast that, and I think it was at like 00:46:56.130 --> 00:46:59.969 a point where this person was describing delivering 00:46:59.969 --> 00:47:03.309 the child. Um, and he was just like, why are 00:47:03.309 --> 00:47:05.070 you listening to this? And like your Instagram 00:47:05.070 --> 00:47:08.130 feed is full of dead babies and like, why? And 00:47:08.130 --> 00:47:11.039 I was just like, Oh, It's so helpful for me. 00:47:11.179 --> 00:47:13.159 He's like, it can't be helpful. I'm like, it 00:47:13.159 --> 00:47:15.860 is. Yeah. So you really have to also just do 00:47:15.860 --> 00:47:19.039 what you want to do. And it also was, it's very 00:47:19.039 --> 00:47:20.639 different for men and women. Like we were going 00:47:20.639 --> 00:47:22.360 in different directions with our grief, right? 00:47:22.440 --> 00:47:24.820 He'd had to hold everything together to hold 00:47:24.820 --> 00:47:28.559 the family together, but I was still. you know, 00:47:28.559 --> 00:47:31.579 I'd been through the birth. So, um, it's hard 00:47:31.579 --> 00:47:33.420 and I really think you need to do what you need 00:47:33.420 --> 00:47:36.460 to do. Um, and actually he and I went for a couple 00:47:36.460 --> 00:47:39.980 of counseling sessions together. So that we could 00:47:39.980 --> 00:47:42.800 then start to understand where each other was 00:47:42.800 --> 00:47:44.739 with their grief. And then we actually also went 00:47:44.739 --> 00:47:47.280 away. My parents came over in the April and we 00:47:47.280 --> 00:47:49.059 went away for a couple of days on our own, just 00:47:49.059 --> 00:47:51.119 because we needed time to reconnect on where 00:47:51.119 --> 00:47:54.039 we were. Um, I think that's the thing as well 00:47:54.039 --> 00:47:57.139 for men. It's a difficult call for men, right? 00:47:58.050 --> 00:48:01.849 They don't go through it physically, but there 00:48:01.849 --> 00:48:03.889 is so much they go through. And I know that, 00:48:03.889 --> 00:48:05.570 like he said to me, there was one point when 00:48:05.570 --> 00:48:08.010 I was delivering summer that he had a sudden 00:48:08.010 --> 00:48:11.630 just fear of like, what if I lose? Well, if something 00:48:11.630 --> 00:48:15.530 happens to Jane as well. So I think he had his 00:48:15.530 --> 00:48:18.530 own trauma as well that he was processing, but 00:48:18.530 --> 00:48:21.909 not really able to, yeah. I think that protection 00:48:21.909 --> 00:48:26.550 instinct in men is very strong. And to lose your 00:48:26.550 --> 00:48:29.559 child, Yeah. Kind of violates that. Yeah. Yeah, 00:48:29.599 --> 00:48:32.400 for sure. Yeah. Well, Jane, thank you so much 00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:34.099 for being here and sharing your story with us. 00:48:34.280 --> 00:48:36.119 It couldn't have been easy in like right now. 00:48:36.619 --> 00:48:39.880 I'm, I'm actually, you know, feeling very touched 00:48:39.880 --> 00:48:42.800 by your story. So thank you. Thank you for being 00:48:42.800 --> 00:48:45.639 here and for being so honest and open. Thank 00:48:45.639 --> 00:49:20.250 you. I'm so sorry. I tried to keep it in. It's 00:49:20.250 --> 00:49:24.949 okay. Thank you. And it's really hard, isn't 00:49:24.949 --> 00:49:26.150 it? Because...