This episode contains sensitive conversations
around stillbirth, miscarriage and perinatal
mental health. Please ask us about her, our tears
may flow in front of you but we're so grateful
to you for talking about it. Jane Street, a mother,
business owner and counsellor in training. Jane's
life took an unimaginable turn when her daughter
Summer was still born at six months. Since then
she's walked a journey through profound grief
and healing and she now uses her experience to
advocate for mental health and support others
navigating loss. The 40s Formula. The 40s Formula.
The 40s Formula. Hosted by Jasmine Dillon, integrated
health strategist specializing in gut health,
hormones, and midlife well -being. And Amanda
Lim, director of Lyft Clinic and a leading expert
in female strength and metabolism. Named one
of CNA's top podcasts and winner of the 2025
Asia Podcast Awards in the best health and wellness
podcast category. The 40s formula is your no
fluff science meets real life guide to thriving
in your 40s. Jane first shared her story with
Sassy Mama magazine, opening up about the raw
reality of losing her baby girl and the relentless
grief that followed. Today she's here to share
the journey with us, how she honored summer's
memory and how she's learned about living with
grief and the way she's finding hope and purpose
on the other side. Hi Jane, thank you for coming
here today and sharing your story with us. Do
you mind just taking us back to the beginning
and let us know what happened when you felt something
was wrong? Yeah. Thanks for having me. It's really
good to be here. It was a long time ago now,
or it feels quite a long time ago. So it was
back at Christmas 2018. So on Boxing Day, we'd
had all the Christmas festivities and everything.
And on Boxing Day, we were going to my best friends
because we always do a family Christmas with
them, another Christmas day with all the kids.
And we were getting ready to go for that. And
I suddenly realized that I had, so I was nearly
six months pregnant then. And I suddenly realized
that I hadn't felt her move. Um, and I was trying
to think back to when was the last time I'd felt
her move and I just couldn't think. So I was
a bit panicky, um, felt like there might be something
off, but my husband was trying to calm me and,
and was like, it will be okay. So then we decided
to contact my doctor. Got to love Singapore for
that. Contacted them and he was like, just come
straight in. Um, and I had a scan and there was
no heartbeat. Oh God, that must have been, I
mean, I just, I don't even know. you know, what
was going through your mind at that time. And
when you realize that, like, how, how did it
make you feel? Like what, what were the sort
of the emotions you were going through? Yeah,
I think when, I think when I realized I couldn't
feel the heartbeat and I hadn't, or I hadn't,
sorry, I hadn't felt her move. I kind of instinctively
knew that there was something wrong. So I'd had
two other pregnancies because I have, I had two
older children at that time. Um, and I just knew
something was not right. Um, so even though my
husband and I had called my best friend to say
that we'd be late, um, and also even when I called
the doctors, you know, everyone was trying to
calm me, but I have quite a strong mind body
connections and I just instinctively knew that
that was going to be the outcome. So then. When
I guess there's always a bit of hope though,
right? So when we went there and had the scan
and they confirmed it, yeah, it was devastating.
Like I think there actually was a whale that
came from me that was almost like, where is that
sound coming from? And then I realized it was
coming from me. Yeah. In your, in sort of in
your writing and also in your social media, you
do talk about your, your post. lost self and,
and your sort of pre -lost self. How do those
two coexist now? Do they coexist now? Yeah, it's
tough, I think. And I think, you know, you kind
of move the, it was, it feels like I said at
the beginning, it feels like a long time ago
now. Um, but that's still there. I think that
for me, I was, I feel like I'm a bit more, uh,
I kind of am a bit more aware. that stuff happens
now. I think previously there was almost like
a little bit of naivety to me. I'm probably more
aware that some bad things can happen, but I'm
also more aware of how to make life the most
of life, right? You know, like that's just so
more important now, so much more important. And
it's almost made me realize that it's more important
as well to take time for myself. Yeah. Yeah.
You've got two older kids. Yeah. How How was,
how was it explaining to them what you were going
through? Yeah, it was really tough. So I had,
so my eldest, he was five and my youngest, she
was, my younger one, she was three. So they were
young, but they also, you know, I was showing
they were. excited for their sister. They, when
you were having a girl, Emmy in particular was
very excited to be having a sister. Um, and they,
yeah, so it was tough. So we, when we left the
hospital, I called, I was, I used a doula for
both the older children and, uh, she was also
supporting me for summer. Um, and I called her
straight away. She was actually living in JB
then, so across the border. And obviously it
was just after Christmas. So I did call her and
I spoke to her and she was like, okay, I'm coming
straight away. And she really encouraged me to
tell the children, um, and to go home and be
open. I'm a super open person. Like I wear my
heart on my sleeve. Um, and I literally can't
keep stuff in if it's bothering me. So there's
no way I could have hidden it from the children.
So. Yeah. So we told them they had a lot of questions,
a lot of practical questions like how's the baby
going to come out now? What happens? Like all
of that type of thing. But yeah, it was tough.
And actually Tanya, my doula, she encouraged
me to just take some photos and also to get them
to draw some pictures. So that was nice. It was
also a way for them to process what they were
going through as well. Did they remember that
moment? I don't know if they remember the exact
moment. I suspect they probably do. They, particularly
my eldest, they were, he's very tapped into my
emotions. So yeah, it was interesting. I suspect
they probably do that. We also were meant to
be flying to Japan the next day for a holiday.
So we had to cancel that. So they, they were
also, you know, like practical in that sense
as well. They were like, but we were going on
holiday and now we can't go. Um, so yeah, so,
but I suspect they would remember if, if I asked
them in detail. And since that experience, you
have had another child. Yes. Yes. So we had another
baby. Um, we actually found out we were pregnant
with the next baby a year to the day of losing
summer. Um, which was, it was very bittersweet,
obviously. And actually for that year, It had
been a tough year, obviously with the grief and
everything, but also because it was very difficult
for us to conceive again, which was unusual because
the first three pregnancies, I was very lucky
and blessed in that it had been quite easy. So
yeah, so it was a real bittersweet moment on
her, the first anniversary of her death or her
birthday, whichever way you want to look at it.
I mean, that must've been tough, even that pregnancy,
how, what did you go through during that, during,
you know, the, the nine months that you were
pregnant? Yeah, it was tough. Um, I had a lot,
there was a lot of. blues, I think I would describe
it as, in terms of I had a real struggle with
how was I going to accept a new baby when the
other baby and like that just mental battle of
like, this baby doesn't replace summer, but it's
not summer. And so that was tough. And then,
but I kind of, I actually saw a counselor for
a bit around that, which really helped. And then
I, but then towards the end, it was very anxious,
like really, really. just so tight. Um, and then,
and it was also COVID, it was 2020. Um, so it
was, it was really hard. Um, and then I think
that she was also late. Um, so she was like eight
days late, which my other two babies are also
late babies, but it was like every day, it felt
like I was ticking off and was she going to be
born alive? That was literally was. I just didn't
know whether she was going to be born alive or
yeah. Did you have a great deal of fear around
that six -month mark? Yes. So getting over that
was a big hump, like it felt. And actually, I
really thought that I would relax into the pregnancy
more. But it helped, but I don't think I did.
I don't think I ever relaxed into that pregnancy.
I think I had a hypervigilance and a tightness
to me for that whole period, for the whole time
I was pregnant with her. I feel like I'm actually
not surprised because, you know, you went through
such an ordeal. in summer, that must've been,
you know, like that, that sort of, I guess that
sort of innate feeling inside you was like, right,
how am I going to cope if this happens again?
What were the kids like then during your pregnancy
with Lulu? Yeah, I think that they probably,
so they were obviously a bit older then, but
they, I think they didn't really know whether
to believe that it would be true. Um, I think
that they, yeah, I don't think they thought that
a pregnancy necessarily ends in a living baby.
Yeah. Yeah. Which is sad, right? For that innocence
to be lost at that age. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, just,
wow. That's a, you know, it's a hard thought
to have. Yeah. Um, when you experienced your
loss with Summer. What sort of support did you
receive? Obviously, you spoke about your doula
and how she helped you communicate with the children.
How did family, friends, how did they all play
a part in helping you sort of get through that
grieving period? Yeah, so they were all really
important. And I think, so my parents -in -law
were there at the time, they were here, sorry,
at the time they were here for Christmas that
year. Which was helpful. Um, it was tricky not
having my mom here and my dad and my sister.
Um, so that was pretty hard, but it just was
not conceivable. Like my mom obviously wanted
to come straight over, but it just was not conceivable
to be able to do that. Like we had, like I say,
my husband's parents were there and we just didn't
have room for it. And actually I just didn't
have the mental space for it. And I also just
needed to go through it in my own way. Um, and
so, so Simon was, my husband was like a massive,
he's amazing. So he was a massive support. Um,
and also my best friend, she, who's here, I've
lived here for a long time. We've known each
other since I pretty much moved here. Um, and
so she was a massive support and then other friends
too. Um, I also had some counseling, which actually
I kind of immediately tried to rush into that
and was like, I need to fix this, I need to feel
better and I need to get over this and stuff,
which is very me at that time was very me. Um,
and it was all a bit too quick. Like I just wasn't
ready for that. Um, so further down the line
I had counseling again, and that was much more
helpful at that point. Yeah. So there was a lot
of, there was a lot of support. My doula Tanya
was unbelievably amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Like I
think. you sort of think about sort of the immediate
aftermath and how that that would have been tough
for you but then sort of following on obviously
you never get over something like this but when
did things start to feel a little bit easier
you know when did you start to come to terms
with what had actually happened yeah i'd definitely
say that took longer than i think You would expect
like and and also that I think that society sometimes
expects, you know Like this and there's a pressure
on that that is maybe a real or in your headache
pressure. I don't know But I definitely think
it took longer than I would have thought and
it was also particularly that whole first year
You know, there's a lot of firsts like we had
to go through her due dates we had to go even
things like so my son turned six like probably
just over a month after we lost Summer. And his
birthday was so hard because I just couldn't.
Be joyful. Yeah, and I couldn't. comprehend how
I was just thinking back to his labor and the
product of his labor and this beautiful child
and how my previous labor had been such a different
outcome. So there's so much that I think is so
difficult. And also in that year, like when you
lose a baby, you know, you've got all the baby
weight that doesn't just drop off when you've
lost a baby because I was not breastfeeding and
I was, you know, so it was like, almost actually
physically, I felt so different as well. And
I found it really hard to lose that weight. And
it was, it was just, there was so much that was
a struggle around it. Like the initial part as
well, you know, I have always been very blessed
again and lucky that I had a good milk supply.
But in that moment, I didn't want that good milk
supply. Like my engorgement and the milk all
came in and then you have no little mouth to
feed. It was awful. Do you mind digging into
that a little bit deeper with us in terms of
the moments. So Boxing Day, you get the news.
There is no heartbeat. And then it's my understanding
that it's recommended typically to deliver the
baby. So can you talk us through that process?
When I was told there was no heartbeat, I think
one of those other initial thoughts was... I
think I was just like, how are they going to
get this baby out? Much like my kid's awesome.
Yes. Um, and in my head, I was just like, I just
want like a general anesthetic. I want them to
do a C -section. I want them to take the baby
out. Like I just can't imagine how it happens
any other way. And that's also where my doula
was amazing. Cause she was just like, um, she
gently encouraged me that yes, they could do
that obviously if I wanted, but. it probably
wouldn't be the best for my healing and for my
like emotional wellbeing in terms of looking
as a look back. Um, so yeah, so they, they basically
induce you, but you're obviously going from,
it's not like a normal induction for a full term.
Um, it was, they basically give you some medication
that encourages your body to bring on the contraction.
So I had to, so I went home and, um, and then
just got stuff together to stay overnight, obviously.
And actually my best friend came over and she
actually packed my hospital bag for me because
I was literally just like, I can't even begin
to think what I need to take. And then we went
to hospital and my doula mat's there, but also
I was in the, so it was at Thompson and I had
my other two at NUH, so I'd actually changed
doctors for summer. So I went, you don't give
birth then in the labor ward, but you're on the
maternity ward. So I was in this room and it
was like right near to the nurse's station. I
think they wanted me near the nurse's station,
just in case of, because you have the medication,
it takes quite a while. But I could hear these
babies crying. And I said to one of the nurses,
this is horrendous. It's so heartbreaking that
I can hear these babies crying. And she kind
of looked at me like, a bit like it hadn't even
dawned. Like they hadn't even thought about that.
No one had ever brought that up before. I don't
think they had. So then literally like, and I
didn't make a big fuss. It was literally just
a statement about how heartbreaking it was. And
then about 15 minutes later, they came in and
moved me to actually the suite, which was right
at the other end and said it's to try and help
with the noise and stuff. I think it's heartbreaking
that you have to deliver where there's a bunch
of other babies around, but I don't, I'm not
entirely sure how they would do it. So, so yeah,
so then that medication kind of, it took a while.
It takes, like I said, a while. And this was
probably about 7 PM. So then, yeah, so we tried
to get to some sleep. My husband obviously stayed.
My doula was nearby at her friend's house. And
then yeah, we kind of, it started to ramp up.
I'm a real fainter. So I was worried about fainting.
And so I did start to feel a bit funny. And then
actually it ended up happening quite quickly.
So she was born at about 3am. And my doula had
just got there, I think. And then Simon messaged
my friend Kate and said that she'd just been
born. And she came straight over. stay connected
with with Summer's memory now? Is there anything
you do now sort of obviously? Yeah, yeah. Like
from since it happened to sort of stay connected?
Yeah, so a lot of it has arisen kind of from
stuff we did afterwards. So straight afterwards.
So we did, Tanya also put me in touch with someone
else who had lost her baby in a similar kind
of stage and it had to go through the same thing.
And so she was lovely and I messaged her and
we actually spoke on the phone. And so she took
me through the whole cremation and everything
like that, because we obviously, cause that's
also another thing I was like, well, what happens
to the baby now? Like I don't want the baby to
just like, what happens? Um, and so we had her
cremated like a couple of days later, but just
Simon and I did that together. So, um, so we
have her ashes. So, um, we have that at home,
um, just on our side, which, you know, like,
so we kind of thought we might do something with
her ashes, but. actually just as time has gone
on, it's quite comforting to have her in the
house. And then, you know, we did things like
we did a lot of walking outside. I did a lot
of walks. We lived near the Botanics at the time
and I did a lot of walks in the Botanics. Simon
and I did a lot of walking in McRitchie and we
often in McRitchie would have little yellow butterfly,
one walk in particular early on that like flew.
the whole walk with us. And we were just like,
wow, this is, she's here. Um, so that's a big
part. Butterflies are a big part. And actually
the house we live in now is in Mount Sinai, which
is known as the butterfly state. So there's always
yellow butterflies in the garden. So it was like,
Oh, baby summer's here. And, you know, the kids
will say baby summer's here. Um, so yeah, that
was, there was just small things and she's also
very much a part of our family. Like we have,
uh, you know, there's an image that depicts our
family and she's on it with little. angel wings
over her name. Um, so people coming in would
be aware of their being another child, not just
the three that are actually physically present.
I think. Yeah. So one of the things that we sort
of talk about on this show is like the small
choices that you can make just, you know, like
how to nourish yourselves and how to get through
the, the, the day to day what's happening. And
I think that kind of. brings us into a question
that our sponsor wants to ask you. And the meat
club have asked, we hear nutrition plays a role
in how we feel day -to -day from our own experience.
How have things like food choices, daily routines
made a difference in supporting your mental wellbeing
through this grief? Yeah. So I think initially
that was a big part, right? I literally just
didn't want to eat. It was the last thing on
my mind. And thankfully our amazing helper was
taking care of the kids and all of that type
of like looking after their welfare. Um, but
yeah, the food was just not like at the forefront
of my mind. Um, when Kate actually ordered delivery
one of the days to, uh, house for us with some
noodles and stuff. But actually quite quickly
after that, we had actually a meat delivery from
the meat club because I was in their subscription
service anyway. And I think knowing that you're
having like good food, good meat coming from
good sources and just nourishing your body properly
was really helpful because definitely I'm really
a firm believer that as soon as your nutrition
goes off, you will feel it in your body straight
away and it will then obviously. impact your
mental health and general wellness? Speaking
of mental health, I went through a miscarriage
myself, but only at nine weeks. And it's a very
different situation. You know, in no way do I
mean this to be a parallel. The reason I bring
it up is because when when you lose a baby at
nine weeks, you don't know that baby yet. You
know that you're pregnant, you have that kind
of understanding that a life is coming through
you, but it's a very different situation. I didn't
know the gender of the baby, I didn't know, we
hadn't even genetically tested, anything like
that, right? So when you know your baby, does
that impact how you know your next baby? Meaning,
when you had Lulu. Was it always summer on your
mind? How do you negotiate that new relationship?
Yeah. And also so sorry about your miscarriage.
Like how do you think that any loss at any stage
is very deeply impactful on any woman and any
man as well? Yeah. So with Lulu, so it's one
of those things that I have a real difficulty.
Like there's a real dissonance in my head about
how to connect, like how to sit with the two.
Because, you know, there's kind of a picture
in my head. I mean, Summer would have been like
the most amazing child. She's like perfect in
every way. I think that's what we've built up
in my head about the child that we lost. Um,
and then obviously Lulu is not the most perfect,
as actually any child is not. And in reality,
Summer would not have been. So yeah, so it's
kind of a funny thing, but I do. I do feel a
connection to Summer in a different way that
I do to Lulu, but they both kind of just sit
together. And actually, interestingly, so my
older two, who are now 12 and 10, have talked
to Lulu about the baby sister that's not really
for her a baby sister, because she would have
been an older sister. And, you know, that's,
it's really nice. And so they just talk about
her and, you know, they are completely separate
children in that way. So, yeah. But it's a weird
one, like a really, it can't be tricky, I think,
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So I had a real fear of the hospital because
I had her at Thompson. I'd also changed to a
different doctor by then as well. Um, and they,
um, so I didn't want to be at the hospital for
very long because I just associated it with obviously
giving birth to a dead baby. Um, and so I stayed
at home for as long as I could. And I had, uh,
Tanya had left Singapore by then. Um, and so
I had a different, uh, doula, um, who was also
wonderful. And, and so she, we stayed at home
for a long time, got to hospital and I was. Actually,
she was kind of saying to the midwives like,
you know, she's probably going to give birth
soon. And you know, they do all the signing in.
They were asking things like about my medical
history, have you had a miscarriage? Like all
of that type of stuff that I was just like, I
can't cope with this. Um, but then actually the
worst part was when we got in, they put the,
the, you know, the heartbeat, uh, yeah, on and
they, it didn't pick up a heartbeat. So my dealer
was saying to Simon, get her AirPods, get her
AirPods, because there was a big... commotion
about the fact they couldn't find the heartbeat.
So in my head, I was like, this baby is also
going to be born. Yeah, it was horrendous. And
actually what it was, so, um, Emily and my doula
pushed their belt thing down into, cause she
was already in the birthing, you know? So they
just had it in the wrong place, but it was a
real panic. Yeah. So then when she was actually
born, um, I mean, she was 4 .4 kilos. So that
was mind blowing in itself. Okay. So she's, she
gave out with a thunder. She was like a three
month old. actually the same weight as my two,
like my twins. We got our two big babies. So
yeah, but just when they held, they put her in
my arms, it was like all this relief from my
body finally went away. Um, and yeah, it was,
it was, it was a big relief. I can remember being
in the car on the way home and just being like,
Oh my God, thank God she is here. And thank God
she is okay. Yeah. And the kids, when we went
in, it was just lovely for them to enter the
house. And they did come to the hospital to see
her, actually. And they could finally understand.
Yeah, and see that she was actually there. What
was your sort of mental and emotional state like
post Lulu's birth? Now, obviously you've come
home now, you know, longer in the hospital and
there you are with this baby. How was that for
you? Like, were there the same type of fears
that kept creeping up? Or did you feel that,
you know, this was, you know, a different baby,
a different chapter. How was it? Yeah. So I think
I was not conscious of it. being of me being
anxious, but there was definitely a huge anxiety.
Um, and it was so probably that didn't start
to creep in immediately, but I think probably
after, you know, you've got such the hormone
high and everything going on for the first, actually,
I mean, it's obviously just a few days, like
a few days, but you know, kind of lasts for a
while. Um, and then I think that as we kind of
went back to normal and she was slotting into
our life, um, I, we also had a really tragic
event happen in, we owned some F45 gyms at the
time and we had a tragic event happen in the
gym that kind of, um, tipped me over the edge
in terms of anxiety. Um, and I, this was when
she was about 10 weeks old and I quite quickly
descended into really quite. bad postnatal anxiety.
And then that kind of turned into depression
as well later on. And how did you sort of help?
How did you help yourself during that sort of
that? that phase then, if it was depression,
like how did you try to manage that? Or was somebody
else there, like your partner, for example, sort
of trying to give you the support and encouragement?
Yeah. So it was, yeah, so Simon was amazing.
He took some time off work and really tried to
help me. I had, it really presented for me the
anxiety initially presented as vertigo. Um, so
I was kind of running around going to all different
medical appointments and trying to see if there
was an underlying cause until it was eventually
like, um, yeah, this is definitely, um, there's
nothing, there's no other kind of cause that
it could be. Um, so actually then they offered
me, um, antidepressants for, cause obviously
like also works on the anxiety. And my main thing
was that I could, I had terrible insomnia, so
I couldn't sleep, um, at all. Um, and so that
obviously quite quickly impacts on the anxiety
and then onto the mode. Um, so I did, I went
onto antidepressants, which helped me. They were
quite as a dating type, so dating at night. Um,
so they really helped me to sleep. Um, and then
yeah, that was a very long journey afterwards.
Um, I didn't. Later on, I didn't love the antidepressants
because I felt that they were very blunting on
me emotionally. Um, so then I was in this cycle
of wanting to come off them, but not being able
to sleep. So it was a very big journey. Um, eventually
after two years, actually, so when Lilla was
two, I probably looked more, finally decided
to look more into the hormone side. And like
I say, I was very in touch with my body. I'd
felt like it was that, but, um. it wasn't being
medically validated in that way. And also for
the first year I was still breastfeeding. So
you can't really do anything about it almost
then. And eventually it was discovered that my
progesterone was like rock bottom, like none
in my body, which is your natural anti -anxiety
in terms of internally, right? And then so I
started supplementing with progesterone and I...
But not straight away, like two or three months
and I was back to me. So was there like, so you're
off the SSRIs now? Yeah. Yeah. And so with the
progesterone, that was enough to? Yeah. Okay.
Amazing. And then I, but I also, the important
part for me was that I felt more back to me.
I was then able to taper off the antidepressants
because I was stable again. And then it also
meant that I felt back to me in terms of my mood
and everything because the emotional blunting
had all gone. And antidepressants can obviously
be very effective for a lot of people. I didn't
love them for me. And yes, it was, and also hormones
might not be the solution for everyone in that
situation, but it certainly was the solution
for me. And you talked about kind of, you had
a sense that there was something hormonal off
with you. You were feeling invalidated by certain
providers. How did you finally advocate to the
provider who helped you with the progesterone?
Yeah, so I think that was... I actually ended
up... Because I'd been saying that I wanted to
have my hormones checked and not really... The
doctor I was seeing at the time wanted me to
get my brain sorted before my body. And I...
felt, like I say, I felt that it was my hormones.
And then eventually I had an appointment with,
um, I mean, I'm sure you're familiar on this
podcast with Louise Newson, the hormone doctor
in the UK. So actually when I was in the UK,
I did an online call with her clinic. Um, and
so they, from what we discussed, they basically
were like, yeah, I think you should look into
hormone treatment. And then I decided to go to
another doctor here who is more known as a hormone
specialist. And she was the one that did the
blood tests. I was going to say, so they kind
of nuanced progesterone insufficiency from the
call. Well, not necessarily progesterone insufficiency,
but more... hormones imbalanced. Yeah. Yeah.
So they kind of were the voice that validated
that is going on. And actually they did send
me, they put me on the standard, uh, estrogen
progesterone mix that you would get for perimenopause.
Although, and although she was very much like,
you see, you're probably a bit young because
at that time I was probably 42. So she said,
you are probably a bit young. Yes, we're all
very young. But then And then actually when I
went to see this hormone doctor in here, she
was like, I can see from looking at you, you
don't need estrogen. So take that out and you
probably just need the progesterone. And it was,
and actually since then I've listened, there's
some, I looked through the podcasts with Louise
Newsome and there's some of her podcasts on supplementing
progesterone in postnatal depression. And the
fact that it can be, and this, the doctor that
I saw here, uh, she said, yeah, you have had,
you have none of your natural anti -anxiety in
your body. So it's no wonder you're feeling the
way you're feeling. Yeah. Well, they always say,
right, that postpartum, the symptoms and feelings
that you have are your best window into your
own medical. It's like, that's going to be your
first clue of what it's like to crash, right?
So it's, you literally kind of had a couple of
events there. Yeah, and it was also interesting
for me that I didn't experience that in any of
my other pregnancies, but I honestly think, so
when I had Lulu, I was like 10 days off my 41st
birthday. And I honestly think that... having
a baby in your forties is a whole different ball
game. Yes, it is. Not just from being more tired
and busy, but actually from the hormones are
already starting to decline. Yeah. I mean, I
had that with the twins. So like soon after twins
were born, I didn't realize that my symptoms
were actually perimenopause. Yeah. postpartum.
I mean, I guess they were both, you know, they
coincide. And it wasn't until, you know, like
I, I started getting the hot flushes. I think
had I not had those, I probably would have gotten
another couple of years before realizing that
something was wrong. And it was. purely because
I had that, and I kind of associated that with
menopause. I thought, oh, shit, I better get
it checked out. I was 37, you know? So that wasn't...
And when you initially say it, the first thing
everyone says is, oh, you're too young. Yeah,
it can happen any time. So, Amanda, you know
how I've been on this journey about improving
my sleep? Oh, you have been obsessed about it
lately. Well, I have found something that has
been incredible. Cozy Earth bed sheets. Ooh,
that's saying a lot because you are really picky
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They keep me cool all night. Oh, and I've been
eyeing the pajamas too. They are so chic and
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relaxing for the evenings. And what's crazy is
that Cozy Earth actually ships to Singapore,
orders over $560 ship free, and in the US orders
over $50 ship free. And did you know you can
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code TFF today. So head over to CozyEarth .com
and use that code TFF today. I hate to bring
us back to the grief discussion, but something
that I can't help but keep thinking about. So
when you came home after delivery summer, your
kids were five and three. That's the exact age
of my older two right now. Yeah, yeah. It's full
on. Yeah. Meaning as in touch and emotionally
beautiful as they are, there's certain things
they can't, their cognition would not allow,
right? Yeah, yeah. Potentially to understand
how the enormity of what this loss was for mom.
Yeah, yeah. How were you able to carry out the
duties of parenting two kids at that age while
also handling your own? What did you hold on
to? To be honest, I'm not sure I really did.
Definitely not for the first few weeks, I think.
And also because it was over Christmas and we
had been going away, so my husband was not at
work. And then because my parents -in -law were
here as well. So they took the kids out a bit.
Kate took the kids a lot. Um, because also, like
you say that they couldn't understand it fully
and they were very caring and very, you know,
I was in bed a reasonable amount. I wasn't really
doing much. Um, and they were very, you know,
they would give me cuddles, but the next minute
they're fighting and I could not cope with the
fighting. So, um, it was helpful to have people
like just come and take the children at a time
when I just needed Simon to myself. Like that's
also what I needed. You know, that was part of
it. they were taking him away from me when I
needed him. Um, and so we were very, and I was
able to be very gentle on myself and be accepting
of that. And that it didn't make me a terrible
mother, um, because I think it would be so easy
to go to that place. Um, but yeah, I was able
to be quite selfish. Um, and then even further
down the line, I think they, They really pick
up on how I am feeling, maybe too much, I don't
know, sometimes. So they would be gentle around
me. But then they would also see that I was able,
I think it was important for them to see that
I was able to still smile and it's still okay
to be happy when you're grieving. It was an important
lesson in grief for them, probably a little bit
too young, but life happens and we have to understand
that. is the, you know, it's, it's the fragility
of life, right? Yeah. What's one thing you wish
other people would, would know about someone
going through or through your experience? Like
what's something that you would like to tell
other people who haven't gone through this that
you really would like them to kind of understand
from your perspective? Yeah. I think that, I
think one of the big things for me, um, was I
didn't want to I really needed people to reach
out to me. Um, and we were very public in terms
of, because we also had the two gyms at the time.
Um, and so we were quite conscious that we, I
really, one of my biggest things was I didn't
want to meet people in the street or go to my
gym and people be like, Oh, how's the baby or
Oh, like where's the baby. So I just didn't want
to have to do any of that in person, which is
why we were quite. open about it. But we also
didn't want people to not feel like they could
talk to us about it. I think that's one of the
biggest things. So there's a beautiful book as
well that I read. And it's called, I think it's
called Say His Name or Say Their Name or something
like that. And it talks about how it's like,
just say their name. Like that's probably one
of the biggest things you want for your child
that you've lost is for people to remember that.
child was so important to you, you know? And
so even now, like when people talk about her,
it really touches me very deeply. And so that
was the thing. I wanted people to reach out to
me, but I also didn't want to feel the pressure
to have to respond. So I was really grateful
to those people that reached out. And then even
if I didn't reply, just kept reaching out. So
I would definitely say that for, and with any
grief, right? Also, I had a couple of friends
who sent me like Ted talks about grief and then
a Ted talk about violence. and all of that stuff
really touched me. Another friend sent me a gorgeous
key ring that was kind of customized to summer.
So yeah, I think it's really important to let
them know that you're there. There's also something
else I've seen more recently about grief and
I think it's really spot on. It's like... How
do you ask? I think people shy away from the
conversations because it feels too big. And also
there's a bit of not wanting to upset someone,
right? But actually I found it more upsetting
if people didn't mention it, because then I just
felt like they didn't care. And it's almost like,
I think I put in my post like, please ask us
about her, our tears may flow in front of you,
but we're so grateful to you for talking about
it. And yeah, this post I saw recently was like,
It's actually quite helpful to not say things
like, how are you doing? Because that's such
a massive question. Someone in the middle of
grief is doing pretty shit. Right. Um, but questions
like how did school drop off go today? Like,
how are you coping when you need to feed the
children? How are you coping when you see go
into a cafe and you see. baby in a pram, like
that sort of thing was so hard for me in the
aftermath. And also I think just being gentle
with someone around, you know, one of my really
good friends was leaving Singapore just after
we lost Summer. And it was the first time I went
out, she was just having drinks, a really small
group, so really close friends. And I got there
and I was just like, I can't stay, I can't stay.
And we just left. And actually, I just went to
the bathroom. I said to someone, I can't stay.
You need to go and tell them. And then we just
left. So just being understanding about that.
I was like the flakiest friend in the world for
a good like six months to a year. Probably longer
than that. I think we're very understanding.
Yeah. You know, we just had a conversation on
this podcast about female friendships. Yeah.
And a lot of it was about reciprocity and kind
of reevaluating relationships. But I think what
you're saying. to reach out, provide support,
without expectation. This is not a time for transaction
or friendship. This is not a time for you to
need something from that person, but it's also
not a time to just abandon. I think that's tough.
And also not a time to think badly of someone
if they, at the last minute, are like, I just
can't come tonight. I just can't do it. Or if
they come and they go. Yeah, exactly. Like you
were testing your own limits there. I don't think
you intended to go and leave, but it became so
clear that you couldn't stay. And in that situation,
it's not about them. It's 100 % about you. It's
something that you can't do and it's not because
you can't be... that friend, it's just because
it's just too much to handle. And I think that's
one of the gifts that Summer has given me, is
to be understanding with myself and to be a lot
more selfish, if I'm honest. Yeah. Jane, something
that I found really difficult after my loss was
the decision or even, I guess, the opportunity,
weird way to say it, to have another child. Yeah,
yeah. How did you stay open to that opportunity?
Yeah. You've gone through that massive loss.
Yeah, that was tough. Um, I think to be honest,
it's cemented the, so the decision to have a
third child was, um, was kind of one that was,
I don't know, in a very, like, we didn't think
about it in a big way. Um, so Simon's is from
one of three. I'm one of two. So to me in my
head, the idea of having two and, you know, everyone's
like, you have a boy and a girl. perfect family.
Um, but I could tell that he really wanted a
third. Um, and I actually, like, I actually was
really definitely open to it and quite happy
too. So that was kind of why we decided then
to have a third, but it was a little bit like,
Oh my God, have we even put, when I got pregnant
with Summer, I was a bit like, have we put enough
thought into this? Like, is this really what
we want? So there was a little bit of like uncertainty,
which actually I felt very guilty about that.
Then when, when we lost her, that was very difficult
to process. Um, And then, but then it really
cemented that we did want another child, um,
when we then decided to have Lolo. Um, so yeah,
so it was, it was kind of a, but then, like I
say, we then went on a journey where it was difficult
to get pregnant, which was something that was
very new to me, but I honestly think that my
body was just still grieving. I mean, we probably
started trying in like the April, so like four
months after and, um, I think the fact that we,
my body, I think my body would just wasn't ready.
And although I thought mentally, I thought I
was, um, my body was like, nah, you're not ready.
And then I got pregnant in the, um, December,
um, or probably end of November. But, um, yeah,
it was, and it was clearly that my body was ready
then. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, they
say that the sort of the stress, the grief that
will obviously affect your hormone levels, your
testosterone levels as well. So, you know, that
probably was a sign that at the time your body
was still stressed from what had happened prior
to that. Now, is there anything you would like
to say to somebody who is going or has gone through?
the same experience you have. Yeah. So I would
say that, so one of the really, the big things
that really helped me was actually listening
to podcasts. Um, I, I spent a lot of time going
on walks. Um, I just really, it was quite solitary
in that respect, but it was really what I needed.
So I would say podcasts help. books. I Instagram,
I connected with people that had also, you know,
I found accounts that people had lost babies
and I connected with those people. There were
a few people that I messaged for a long time
afterwards. So finding people, to me it was important
to have people that really deeply understood
the actual loss. I met, you know, randomly people
put me in touch with people who'd gone through
a similar thing. That was all really helpful.
But I would also just like be really gentle on
yourself. Don't put pressure on trying to get
over it. Like, you know, you're never going to
get over it. So like there should be no expectation
to and really take your time. And like, yeah,
I just think that is such a big thing now. I
just have really slowed down in terms of any
expectations on my own mental health from summer
and also from the journey I went through with
Lolo as well. And you mentioned earlier about
nutrition and diet, right? And how that really
kind of, when your nutrition is in order, you
can start to see a path emerge. And I think the
same is true for social media diet in that sense,
right? It's like, I keep thinking about you and
the maternity ward delivering that baby, hearing
other babies. And it's like, why would you surround
yourself with that if you had a choice? Meaning
you didn't at that point. So similar thing with
social media, like surround yourself with the
voices that will support and comfort you. Don't
put yourself in situations that will obviously...
I have to say, it's one of those things that
actually caused... a little bit of friction between
me and my husband. Um, and although like, you
know, he was so amazing in such a rock for me,
but then as he, you know, the thing as well with
grief as well, it's so hard because life goes
back to normal. Right. And It's so tricky when
life does go back to normal because you're just
like, no, hold on, I'm still in this. Like, why
does, I just remember feeling like I just want
time to stand still. And it was also difficult
because we went, because of the timing of it.
So we went into a new year, like straight, but
she was born on the 27th of December. So like,
it was so quickly into a new year. And I was
just like, but she's not. in this year now, like
it was so hard. Um, and I think that, but, but
then, so Simon had gone back to work and I remember
one day he came home from work and I was, I was
working as a lawyer at the time as well as the
gyms. So I had, but I had a date that I was finishing
and they had, um, I was on a contract, so they
had replaced me. Um, so I actually was going
back to work, but, um, I hadn't quite gone back
at that point. I was only going back for like
a month. Um, but he came back from work one day
and I was, I was cooking dinner and I was listening
to a podcast that, and I think it was at like
a point where this person was describing delivering
the child. Um, and he was just like, why are
you listening to this? And like your Instagram
feed is full of dead babies and like, why? And
I was just like, Oh, It's so helpful for me.
He's like, it can't be helpful. I'm like, it
is. Yeah. So you really have to also just do
what you want to do. And it also was, it's very
different for men and women. Like we were going
in different directions with our grief, right?
He'd had to hold everything together to hold
the family together, but I was still. you know,
I'd been through the birth. So, um, it's hard
and I really think you need to do what you need
to do. Um, and actually he and I went for a couple
of counseling sessions together. So that we could
then start to understand where each other was
with their grief. And then we actually also went
away. My parents came over in the April and we
went away for a couple of days on our own, just
because we needed time to reconnect on where
we were. Um, I think that's the thing as well
for men. It's a difficult call for men, right?
They don't go through it physically, but there
is so much they go through. And I know that,
like he said to me, there was one point when
I was delivering summer that he had a sudden
just fear of like, what if I lose? Well, if something
happens to Jane as well. So I think he had his
own trauma as well that he was processing, but
not really able to, yeah. I think that protection
instinct in men is very strong. And to lose your
child, Yeah. Kind of violates that. Yeah. Yeah,
for sure. Yeah. Well, Jane, thank you so much
for being here and sharing your story with us.
It couldn't have been easy in like right now.
I'm, I'm actually, you know, feeling very touched
by your story. So thank you. Thank you for being
here and for being so honest and open. Thank
you. I'm so sorry. I tried to keep it in. It's
okay. Thank you. And it's really hard, isn't
it? Because...