Guys, we have some exciting news. The 40s Formula
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Come and join us for a conversation that might
change the way you eat. think and feel the challenge
with loneliness is the more lonely you are the
harder it is to break it please can we stop calling
these things soft skills the ability to communicate
the ability to connect emotional intelligence
all of these things they're not soft they're
really hard right social media at that point
was just the most unbelievable lifeline people
reached out to me from like all over the world
and said what can we do how can we help can i
send you money all kinds of things so even though
i had nothing At least I had the world. You had
something. So I wasn't really alone. Because
I was a single mum with her for a long time,
I had to have that, even when she was like teeny,
teeny, tiny, right? Because there is no other
parent here, darling. So we're going to have
to work this out. We're going to have to communicate.
There is no one else to help us. Balance doesn't
exist for me. I don't believe there's any balance,
right? I can't be half here with you two and
half with her in Kuala Lumpur, right? I made
a choice. When you believe that time is sort
of infinite, there'll always be time. There is.
It's amazing, right? So people always ask me,
how do you have time? I think I create it. I
just believe there'll be more of it. And then
there is. In the last 30 years, we have lost
48 % of our empathy as human beings, the skill
set of understanding others. So the empathy deficit
fundamentally just refers to that lack of understanding.
There's data that shows if you say like, what's
the capital of France? it'll say the capital
of france is paris versus if you say hey chat
gbt please could you tell me what is the capital
of france it'll say the capital of france is
paris it is a beautiful city with the blah blah
blah do you mean it will give you more information
oh my gosh and it's proven there's a lot of fear
around ai i have zero fear i i think that we
are so bad at empathizing with each other we
have such a deficit if the machines can fix it
then even better hallelujah and welcome to The
40s Formula, your go -to place for insightful
discussions on navigating the 40s and thriving
in this transformative decade. We're your hosts,
Jasmine and Amanda, two women that are passionate
about exploring the challenges and adventures
that come with turning 40 and what lies ahead.
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it on our Instagram. The Meat Club, where quality
meets convenience. One of the compelling ideas
that I love about you. is that you say we are
pro -social beings, but we're moving in reverse.
We are. But can we be honest? Is there any sort
of future, really, with AI and social media and
just screens moderating our every move? Is there
any future where we're not becoming more and
more disconnected from each other? My gosh, I
hope so. Because if there's not, I need to stop
doing my work now. Yes, pick up your shoes. Look,
I think it's shifting. I think you're right.
In many ways, we're shifting apart because of
tech amongst many other things. But I do think
in the work I do, we're also coming back together.
Because I started this work about five years
ago with about 300 connections on LinkedIn. And
it was just like me and an idea. And I would
get up every day and post and hope that someone
was listening. But I would do it again tomorrow
anyway. But today they are. So today we've had
some really great momentum. So I think to answer
your question really simply, yes, I think there
is now an awareness that we need to reconnect.
But there is also demand. People actually beginning
to feel it. They can feel, not always consciously,
but they can viscerally feel disconnection. We
have 52 % of the world being lonely. They're
now able to, not all of them, but verbalize that.
to understand it, to recognise it. So yes, I
think that there is a world, there will be a
world where we are reconnecting. And you see
it all the time. I actually watched a video on
Singapore the other day about third spaces. You
ladies heard about third spaces? Oh my gosh,
you now need to go and Google. There's loads.
There's loads here in Singapore, right? So third
spaces, I think they came from New York, but
it's a reference to a place that is not the home
or office or school or wherever you spend your
time. It's a third space where you go to reconnect.
So, for example, I saw there's one here in Singapore,
which is a woman who has a laundrette, so a laundry
store. But she decided to create community within
her laundry store. So when you go to put your
washing in the washing machine, you can also
connect and have coffee and make friends and
feel part of something. That's a third space.
And they're popping up all over the place. Like
in New York, they're like beautiful art galleries
and all kinds of different things all over Southeast
Asia. That is an exemplification of people saying.
I need people. Yeah. I need community. We want
this. I want to feel connected. Yeah. So I think
the future is bright. So talk to me, though,
about how we seek out places like that. Right.
So. So then you just introduced a new term to
us. Yeah. Like, how would I, as just, you know,
your average layperson find these places for
connection? I think on the whole, people find
it from within their communities. And I think
that's why we see, for example, things like podcasting,
women's group, community groups, all these things
just growing and growing and growing in the last
two years. so many people have asked me mimi
when are you starting a community like for us
and i'm like not today guys right um but but
i always say to them well what what do you want
from me like help me understand what it is you're
asking from me and they all just say well we
just want to be with you and other people right
we just want to be people just want to be with
other people so people are finding these spaces
by searching probably people like me in wherever
they are, right? Often they get it wrong and
then they try somewhere else. That is the people
that are finding the community. The people that
aren't are the ones that are staying at home
and doing nothing about it. Because the challenge
with loneliness is the more lonely you are, the
harder it is to break it. Your confidence goes
down, your energy goes down, your immune system
goes down and then it's very hard to break it.
So I think people are searching for it and hopefully
they're finding it in their communities as well.
Amanda, can we talk about how clean Guzmany Gomez's
food is? Truly clean. Not the it has letters
so it's healthy kind of clean. Oh, totally. GYG
is on another level. There's no preservatives,
no artificial colors, no weird additives. It
is just proper, real food. I read that they went
through 21 versions of their corn chips before
they found the one. Now that's commitment. And
they fly in their avocados and tomatoes daily
from Australia to Singapore. That is the level
of commitment I want in my food. You can taste
it, whether it's the burritos, the bowls, or
those chipotle -seasoned fries. You just feel
good after eating it. And it's really why my
entire family keeps going back. Clean is the
new healthy, and GYG has been leading that charge
since day one. They've literally reinvented fast
food. Who says it has to be dodgy and deep -fried?
Not on GYG's watch. What about personality types
now? Let's say someone is an introvert. and the
idea of going out to meet someone to connect
with someone that might feel really daunting
and yeah like how do you And obviously having
that connection is important. So how do people
who are, you know, afraid to go out there and
meet new people, how can they foster connections?
Look, I'm not going to sugarcoat it. It's not
easy. No. Right? That's why, you know, so often
in my talks and stuff, I say, please can we stop
calling these things soft skills? The ability
to communicate, the ability to connect, emotional
intelligence, all of these things. They're not
soft. They're really hard, right? If you are
sitting at home, if you're, for example, if you're
single and you're sitting at home and you want
to meet people, you're in your pyjamas, you're
watching Netflix, you're very happy, right? You
get it easy. Yeah, right? It's kind of chill.
The food's there, your cup of tea's there, everything's
good. To get up, put on your clothes, your makeup,
for example, go out, walk into a bar with a whole
load of strangers and hope that somebody might
be nice and be like you. It takes a lot of confidence.
And imagine if that bra was off. It's like putting
that bra back on. Yeah, well, there you go, right?
First of all, me putting a bra on was the first
challenge, but yes. So I think that, you know,
we need to stop making it seem simple because
that is not fair. It's not fair to say to someone,
just do it. What do you mean, just do it? If
I just could, I would have. It's just like with
depression, right? It's like, just feel better.
Don't be so sad. It's like, yeah, I hear you.
But at the same time, it's much harder than that
sounds. And if you've been suffering from loneliness
for a long time, like you said, an object at
rest stays at rest, right? The inertia of being
in that space for such a long time can be...
troubling i'm sure yeah and just recognizing
that you know i think um someone asked me yesterday
you know why don't we talk about loneliness more
often i said well i think because we're ashamed
yeah right it's really hard particularly for
men to say i'm lonely it's really hard for them
to even recognize that for themselves let alone
say it out loud because we are tuned we are like
brought up to think that that is a bad thing
That that is something that we should look down
on. You know, we came from more traditional conservative
communities, all of us by our age, right? Because
that's where the world was, right? When we were
small. So we grew up in a world where being alone
was frowned upon. You were supposed to grow up
and get married and look after the family and
all those things. So, as I said, especially for
men, middle -aged men, to actually say, do you
know what? I'm really successful. But I'm really
lonely is really tough. And it must be harder
as well if you do have a family and yet you're
not connected. And then that makes it even harder
because how can you be lonely? Now you've got
a wife, you've got kids. But I guess loneliness
isn't about... you know, the proximity you have
to other people. It's about how that connection
is with one another. Yeah, exactly. You can be
very lonely, but not alone. Yeah. Right. So,
you know, to be lonely is a lack of connectivity,
not a lack of humans. Or you can be surrounded
by people. And, you know, recently I was in Dubai
talking to a CEO of an energy company. So this
man is worth like, I don't know, billions of
dollars, right? He's extremely successful. He's
innovated. He was a startup. I mean, he's just
phenomenal. Or he's just a phenomenal human.
And we're meeting in this coffee shop and we're
chatting away. And at some point he says something
upstairs. And I sort of clocked that he was staying
in this hotel. I said, but how long have you
been here? He said, oh, five years. In the hotel?
Living in a hotel? That's what I wanted to respond.
I obviously couldn't do that face. But that's
what I was saying inside, you know. And I said,
okay, so you've lived here for five years. He
says, yeah, you know, I came for a few months.
I've stayed for five years we carry on the conversation
and then a little bit later he says to me the
thing is Mimi I don't have a friend in Dubai
wow I was like what do you mean you don't have
a friend in five years right so he I mean I'm
sure he dates and he's he's trying to I'm sure
he's trying to rebuild his his own sort of romantic
life and all those types of things but to live
in a hotel for five years and be able to say
I don't have a single friend all I have is my
work So then where you start the story and you
say you had this amazingly successful man worth
billions of dollars, really innovating. But yet
on the other side, what does he not have? Well,
he doesn't have community. He doesn't have connection.
He doesn't have belonging. He's eating alone
every night. So where is success really? I don't
know, but it's a big question. Well, and that
plays in beautifully to one of the questions
I wanted to ask you about longevity. Yes. Right?
So I should say I represent the College of Lifestyle
Medicine, where there are six pillars of lifestyle
medicine, one of which is positive social connection.
And everyone always kind of laughs that one off,
right? Because it's like, okay, exercise, right?
Nutrition, like the big ones, you know, avoiding
risky substances and positive social connections.
But there's a reason that that is now a part
of medicine is because research is increasingly
showing us that people who do not have the type
and amount of social connection they want, their
health is failing. They're suffering. So I love
that you consider in your, I don't want to give
away the lead. This is yours to own. But one
of the pieces of longevity that's missing is
something that you address. And that's empathy.
Can you talk to us about how empathy is different
from social connection but kind of unites them?
those two concepts i love that you opened that
from a medicinal science point of view right
because so often i have to do that and people
are like what really yeah really but yes i mean
absolutely just to kind of give that foundation
so you're absolutely right of course you're right
that being connected to each other is not just
about you know having fun or you know having
someone to go to cinema with it's about our survival
yeah because we are pro -social species so we
do better when we are together which is why things
like the pandemic was so tough emotionally and
mentally for us right we're not meant to be alone
we really do very badly alone but it comes from
our survival if you think back to us being kind
of cave men and women in tribes and i don't know
a field somewhere right If the tribe segregated
out, if it disconnected, they died. Yeah, they're
vulnerable. They couldn't survive. They had to
be together, right, in order to survive. So actually
we talk a lot about survival of the fittest.
It's not actually true. It's actually survival
of the connected, right? When you are together,
you're able to survive. So we know that subconsciously,
but as you said, because of modern day life,
people shrug it off. They don't really believe
it. Yet we know. that when you're connected,
you statistically live eight years longer than
somebody who is disconnected. So that's the core
of why I love your intro, right? Empathy is the
ability to understand people. It's to perspective
take. This is not a soft skill, right? This is
not about being nice or compassionate or kind.
Please be kind. PSA, be kind. Yes, please be
kind. But that's not what we're talking about.
What we're talking about is perspective taking.
It's a skill set. It's built into the prefrontal
cortex. It exists in us as humans to be able
to connect. Because if you don't understand people,
how can you connect with them? It's similar to
when you're a boss or a leader in the workplace.
How can you include people if you don't know
how they want to be included? With our children,
how can we help them grow if we don't know how
they want to grow or need to grow? So empathy
is at the core of all relationships, actually,
whether it's work or romantic or social, which
is why I wrote actually my third book all around
why it is that without empathy, all of those
other critical parts, diet and movement and exercise,
all of those things, they're not enough. If you're
like this gentleman I was talking about earlier,
super fit, eating well, lives a great life all
alone. It's not enough. Eight years, girl. I
mean, that's echoing back in my brain. I mean,
there are things that you could do that you know
are actively bad that don't take eight years
off your life. Do you know what I mean? I mean,
that's huge, huge. And when you said perspective
taking, that was so interesting to me because
empathy, I guess, the way you just described
it. It's the golden rule, is it not? Treat others
the way that you'd like to treat yourself in
a way. And it's like we've forgotten how to do
that because we hide behind these kind of moderated
forms of communication. Okay, let's give a pro
-social media vote here because I'm actually
a pro -social media person. You may have noticed
if you follow my social media. I love the storytelling
potential in social media. I love that I can
connect with people that I have not seen in 30
years on social media. So I actually really like
what social media plays in my life. It doesn't
take away from the type and quality of social
connections that I want. How do you see social
media being used for better or for worse? Like
it's a question I get asked all the time. I don't
think that social media is any type of evil.
I think that people on social media can create
any type of evil or just bad behavior. I mean,
social media as a concept is a platform, a platform
FYI that we built. the people the humans built
right and now we blame it like it built itself
like oh it's social media guys you built that
yeah right so i think the first thing is it's
a platform it's full of people it's full of humans
doing what humans do which unfortunately is things
like exclusion and bullying and isolation and
all of those things but it's not like we don't
see that in real life right so social media can
amplify it for sure right they can put it on
a global platform but i feel exactly like you
amanda that it's for me personally it's a it's
always been a force for for good for me right
and i think for many others we were talking about
introverts earlier many introverts find their
connection find their ability to thrive and grow
on social media because it gives them a platform
to do things they felt they never could so i
think whether it's for me professionally i mean
this empathy vision that i have this i mean I
would never have met you if it weren't for social
media. That's actually very true. Sitting in
my condo somewhere alone, right? With your 300
LinkedIn connections. Which luckily are a few
more today, but yes. But also I think, you know,
if I think back a few years ago, I moved to Sri
Lanka and that's a whole other story, but I moved
to Sri Lanka in 2021. When in my infinite wisdom
at the time, I thought that COVID was probably
over. And in fact, Sri Lanka was in a time at
that point when it was very, it was succeeding
very well through the pandemic. Long story short,
but it was not over for sure. And I ended up
being with my little girl. I was a single mom.
We were isolated in the south of the island,
literally in the jungle. Like she's seven now,
but she remembers that she was four. She remembers
it as the jungle house. It literally was like
a jungle house. We were very alone. We had no
money because we were homebound because of the
local laws. I had never been there before. So
I had no cash because I'd not been able to go
to an ATM since I'd landed. We ran out of food,
like literally like Survivor style. I had like
a bag of rice. Anyway, the point of the story
is it was incredibly difficult, right? There
was moments in that house, that jungle house,
when I was like... what on earth am I doing right
I had come from like life in Dubai surrounded
by like open malls and five -star restaurants
yeah and now here I was like on a rice paddy
surrounded by nothing but like mosquitoes and
ants and my four -year -old all alone with no
rice and social media at that point was just
the most unbelievable lifeline people reached
out to me from like all over the world and said
what can we do how can we help can I send you
money can I say all kinds of things so even though
I had nothing At least I had the world. You had
something. So I wasn't really alone. It's not
real. I'm not saying we should only have online
relationships with our friends, right? But it
can be a force for good. And I just don't think
we tell those stories enough. Yeah, I think you're
right. I think you're right. It's somehow become
the cultural trope that like social media is
bad. Like unequivocally is bad, is disconnecting
us, right? There's no way that it could possibly
do the opposite. So I'm glad to hear you say
that. It does. You know how many amazing people
I meet online. Amazing, amazing women, often
women, right? From all over Asia and the Gulf
who find me and ask me things. And, you know,
then we make friends. And then years later, I
meet them in like far flung places around the
world. But I would never. know these people yeah
if it weren't for those platforms I think there's
plenty of challenges yeah right I think there's
a lot of fake and a lot of inauthentic and a
lot of expectations that we're never going to
meet but I also think that's good so maybe I
guess like with all things in life, right? There's
pros and cons. Like you said, the future might
be bright. Yes. I want to ask you a question
about how do you have empathy with kids? Oh my
God. I was literally going to ask you. I've got
three boys and sometimes I can tell you I am
not empathetic. Or it's hard to harness the empathy,
shall we say, from the deepest depths of my well.
How can someone who is a parent potentially working,
potentially in their 40s, maybe even going through
menopause. How can they bring out that empathy
when... everything else seems to be drowning
them it's tough especially if you've got three
boys how old are they a nine -year -old and seven
-year -old twins oh my god and then that's just
like icing on cake and then and then obviously
I had to go and get a boy dog so you know just
just you know blend it all in first of all again
like the the point earlier about going out is
really hard right so I think it's worth us as
as mums recognizing that it's really hard Actually,
parenting is just really hard, generally. And
you keep waiting for it to get easier. And then
I don't feel like it ever does. My kids are way
too little to even make that assessment at this
point. But I'm thinking it's not going to get
that much easier. The empathy part comes from
a huge amount of patience, to be honest, and
quite a lot of intention. So, of course, I try
very hard with my daughter and I preach this
every day. So I'm super conscious of it. Choose
your words carefully, man. When she's being complex,
like complex to handle. She's a girl. She is
extremely astute emotionally. Right. You should
have seen how long it took me to get to Singapore
today. Like three days. I'm not joking. Three
days of discussion. Why? okay but you're going
to the stage why what is you know we have to
have like really I think that's one thing that
maybe you don't have with boys right that like
deep dive into every decision so I think you
know you have to be very intentional about it
for me as a mum I have a set set of a set set
of sentences that I learned that I can use with
her. They're all questions. They're all open
-ended. I often have to breathe through them,
right? I get that. Let me ask you again. I think
you have to slow down. I think that in so many
areas of our lives, especially as working mums,
that slowing down is the key to speeding up.
If we keep running, we're just going to keep
missing everything and the stress is too much
and our bodies can't take it and neither can
our brains. So you have to slow down. But I also
think we have to be honest with them. When my
little girl, Umi, when she's being really complex
for me to understand, and I'm finding it really
hard to empathize with her, I tell her. I literally
say to her, Ums. i really don't understand what
you want from me right now can we she knows i
said can we reframe this she knows all these
big words yeah can we reframe this the other
day i said to her what's the context and my friend
was like how does she know what context is i
don't know but she does so i think it's also
just shared expectations which is easier than
with one number three for sure But setting that
expectation for communication, because I was
a single mum with her for a long time, I had
to have that even when she was like teeny, teeny,
tiny. Right. Because there is no other parent
here, darling. So we're going to have to work
this out. We're going to have to communicate.
There is no one else to help us. I think it takes
time. It takes patience and it takes recognition
of how hard it is. There's definitely moments,
especially in the car when I'm driving and she
just does not stop talking. Right. That I am
literally consciously saying to myself, just
listen to her. What I actually want to say is
I've had a really long day. I'm really tired.
My brain is in like 7 ,000 places. Please, can
you stop talking? But of course, in real life,
I don't want to say that. I don't want her to
stop talking. Not really. I'm just tired. So
is she. So I think it's hard. I think it needs
patience. I think it needs time creation. But
I also think that we underestimate how much they
can understand. And the more we bring them into
that, the easier it gets. So last night. She
really, really did want me to come on this trip,
this particular trip. So when I put her to bed,
I was like prepared. I've been preparing for
like a week, to be honest. I knew we're going
to have like an extremely long discussion. And
I had also worked out how I had to handle her
so that she didn't end up just in tears, you
know, until 10 p .m. at night. Right. There was
had to be some boundaries. And at one point she
said to me, Mommy, I'm really sorry for being
emotional. I know how hard this is for you. Wow.
And I was like, oh, you're amazing. Anyway, back
to the topic. Right. but that's because I've
taught her that not specifically but like over
time yes and I think it gives them so many tools
for life but it also helps us it's funny you
use the word patience quite a lot of times and
I actually said to Amanda and Michelle earlier
i was watching old videos of the boys on my phone
and i sounded really patient which is something
i feel like i've lost and i do i think i need
to just take a moment but i think what ends up
happening with me and i don't know if other moms
uh agree will i'll ask them to do something and
i know you know they'll be watching tv and i'll
say okay it's time to turn the tv off we've got
to go And they won't listen. And I'll have to
say it five times. But by the fifth time, I've
lost my shit. So that's what I struggle with.
But, you know, I think I need to sort of maybe
I need to get their attention first and say,
right, guys. five minutes we're going you know
and just be a bit more on top of it and try that
patience thing but i also think they need managing
quite well like you just said when you said uh
the five minute warning i think it's really really
important i think we forget how important that
is that their lives until like 15 are just grown
-ups telling them what to do practically every
minute that they are awake wow you know what
i never saw it like that but that makes can you
imagine how exhausted we'd be yeah if i spent
every hour jasmine telling you can you move that
can you do that can you put your shoes on can
you get within like 20 minutes you'd be like
this woman is really annoying yeah get off my
back mimi all right so i think we have to also
just understand for them that there is a lot
of people telling them a lot of things a lot
of the time yeah and When they're not listening,
sometimes I'm not sure it's that they're not
listening. I just think they're over, I don't
know, stimulated is such like a cliche word,
but just there's a lot going on for them. And
I agree with you that you sometimes need to just
say, hey, I'm just telling you this is coming.
And the other thing I do with my daughter is
if they don't listen and you're like, it's the
fifth time, turn the TV off. I say to her when
the TV's off, how do you think I feel? And she
thinks she knows to the T. I mean, she can tell
me perfectly how I feel. Right. So that also
helps because next time when I get frustrated,
so she's asked me, she's very grown up. Mommy,
when you're angry with me, please don't shout.
Just tell me you're angry and I will fix it.
Wow. I can't always do it. But now I am more
able. I did it this weekend to say, hey. I'm
really frustrated Umi you need you need to listen
to me because otherwise I'm going to shout and
you've asked me not to she's like tick tick tick
tick okay yeah that's amazing because that makes
her take ownership of it like you're right I
did say that I asked you to do that you're doing
the thing I asked you maybe I can relent a little
bit right or maybe I can tune in we think they
can't but they can't I think boys it's slightly
different but they can do it yeah they just need
yeah so I've got this thing where they know we
have to leave home By 8am if we're going to school.
And if we are not in the car with the seatbelts
on by 8am, we're not listening to Harry Potter
or Percy Jackson in the car. No, we're going
to listen to the Huberman Lab Podcast. And so
they are... getting ready to jump in the car,
have the seatbelts on and driving off because
they definitely don't want to be listening to
metabolic health. No, you should make it worse.
Be like, you're going to listen to mummy's podcast.
I so would. They actually do want to, but you
know, it's the F words. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I forgot
about it. Yeah. We are an explicit content podcast.
I think I told you that. Well, so Jasmine, you
know, struggles obviously with the patience thing
with her kids and I'm not saying I don't PS,
but I think where I struggle the most because
of all the different hats that I wear is the
focus. Yeah. I struggle to be present. You know,
I really try to live by the mantra, be where
your feet are, you know, because of all the different
things that I have to do in a given day. Yeah.
So it's like if I'm in this podcast studio, this
is all we're doing. Right. How do you manage
that? Because you are a single parent. You travel
extensively. You have a multifaceted job and
career. Like, how do you stay present? So I think
I've never heard that phrase before. Be where
your feet are. I love that. That's all I try.
But conceptually, I do the same. The great thing
is I'm no longer a single parent. So I have a
partner and we've been together now for about
four years. So it has changed my life. Having
been a single mom for a long time, whether I
could do this now as much as I do it with no
other parent in my life, I think it'd be very
challenging because he is like my greatest supporter
and he helps me a huge amount. But even so. I
travel a lot and I agree with you. And I talk
about this quite a lot online as well, that I
think where I find my peace is that we don't,
balance doesn't exist for me. I don't believe
there's any balance, right? I can't be half here
with you two and half with her in Kuala Lumpur,
right? I made a choice and I have to live with
that choice. I chose to fly to Singapore to meet
with you, to do this podcast. That means, and
I have to be honest with myself, I chose not
to be with her today. right that hurts it makes
me a bit sad saying it right but I did right
I have to be honest with myself I made that choice
did I do it because it's my work of course there's
a million reasons functionally but I still made
that choice so I think the first thing for presence
is for me to be at peace with that that then
helps me know that when I'm here 100 % of me
is here right I also think what's amazing with
that is that when you believe that time is sort
of infinite there'll always be time there is
it's amazing Right. So people always ask me,
how do you have time? I think I create it. I
just believe there'll be more of it. And then
there is. So a few years ago, I changed my language
really consciously to never say I don't have
time or I didn't have time, but to I won't create
or I didn't create time because then it's empowering.
It's a choice. And it's amazing that that talks
to your subconscious, which then changes your
conscious decision making. So a lot of it for
me is around, it's emotional, right? It's around
compartmentalizing, it's around making choices,
being comfortable with those choices. And then
when I'm in the moment, just like I'm doing with
you, I do it in my parenting as well, and it's
tiring, is to be very, very present. And I think
probably for all working mums, reading stories
at bedtime is one of the most challenging, wonderful,
challenging things to do. right because we're
normally starving hungry yes we're very tired
we've done a million things we've also done bath
and dinner and all those things and now i must
find the energy to read harry potter or whatever
i'm reading right yes it's magical and i wouldn't
change it for the world but i find that that's
physiologically hard i don't think we talk about
that much but i think it is and you're nodding
so i'm like okay i'm a good company right yes
but at the same time i made that decision right
i when she was born i said every day that i can
put her to bed i will every day And every day
I can take it to school, I will. So if I'm there,
nobody else does it. I don't let my partner,
I don't let the nanny, I don't let anyone do
it. When I'm gone, I'm gone. Someone else has
to help me, right? Mum or somebody. But in that
moment, however tired I am, however hard it is
to read a chapter of Harry Potter, I made that
choice and therefore I sit in it. And I think
that it doesn't take away the pressure, but it
helps with the presence because you've made a
decision. Like you said, you're in here, you're
in here. So it's emotional, but I think it's
probably... Quite powerful. Yeah. And I feel
like that's a good message for women in their
40s overall, right? Is once you have made a decision,
you need to be at peace with that decision. The
anxiety that's created by second guessing and
letting the guilt seep in, right? I made the
decision, but I feel bad. Nope. And I see this
a lot of times in the work that I do with postpartum
moms, right? Getting them back in the gym, getting
them back in shape. It's like they feel so guilty
leaving their little babies for an hour to go
to the gym. And I was like, you know, a couple
of things. Number one, baby has no clue. Like
at this point, you're a food source and you smell
good. And that's pretty much all they got. But
secondly, you have to be at peace with the philosophical
choice of your own health. Yeah. Because you
will have to choose it again and again and again
as this child grows up. For sure. It's not going
anywhere. And I mean, there's that age -old kind
of adage, which is, I can't remember exactly
what it is, but something about what's in the
future is in the future and what's in the past
is in the past. The only thing you have is the
present, right? I didn't say it very eloquently,
but the reality is the meaning is true. Yeah.
Wasn't that Rafiki from The Lion King? Oh, I
like that. I think most of the wisdom of the
world comes from Pixar and Disney movies, so
probably. Probably. But yeah, I think it's a
hard one. You have to be at peace with those
things. And I think the more you do in kind of
the world of podcasting or social media or in
my work, which is advocacy work, there will be
people that don't like what you do. But if you
worry about it, you're not going to do what you
do. So you need to not worry about it. Again,
not easy, but I think it's really, I'm probably
preaching to myself, but I think it's really
important, right? To make peace. I do this because
I want to and because I made the decision. For
me, this is my journey. For me, I want to create
more empathy in the world. I believe that the
world needs it. I'm going to get up and do it
again tomorrow. If that person doesn't like it,
well, hopefully there's two more that do. But
you're right. If we sit in that confusion of
what if, should I, should I not, maybe you're
going to go mad. And you're not going to make
any progress. Also true. You're stuck. You're
stuck, right? Well, you know, you mentioned about
the work that you do with empathy being so, so
important. And we absolutely agree. I mean, your
books, again, I can't say that we read all of
them, but I did read the Goodreads summary. So
I was like, you know, that's as good as gold.
And in Softening the Edge, you talk about something
called the empathy deficit. And you're using
it there in relation to corporations, right?
But I would love to know, first of all, what
is the empathy deficit? And is this a concept
that applies as broadly to corporations as it
does to interpersonal relationships? Absolutely.
It's a human reality. I mean, I talk a lot to
the workforce, to the corporate world, but this
is a social reality for all of us. So the empathy
deficit was actually coined by Barack Obama in
2006 before he was the president. Hey, thanks.
Thanks, POTUS. Thanks, America. Thanks, America.
Another great American leader. Another great
American piece of advice. So he stood up in 2006
and he was addressing an audience and he said,
I know I should talk about my federal deficit
today, but I think we should talk about an empty
deficit. Right. That was 2006. So nearly 20 years
ago. We have done very little. Especially in
America. I'm not even going to comment. But fundamentally,
what he was recognising nearly 20 years ago was
that if we want to grow our economy, if we want
to federally improve the country, we need to
reconnect our people, right? This deficit of
connection that we touched on earlier, this lack
of understanding of each other is going to impact
our economy far beyond just our social relationships.
But as I said, we did nothing with it, right?
Nearly 20 years has gone by. In the last 30 years,
we have lost 48 % of our empathy as human beings,
the skill set of understanding others. So the
empathy deficit fundamentally just refers to
that lack of understanding. It's a deficit of
me being able to understand your perspective,
understand that what we're seeing in the studio
right now is the same thing, but we're seeing
it differently. That we could go through this
conversation and I could love it and you could
leave and say, oh, that was really hard work
for me. I just didn't like her or I didn't agree
with her. right same experience but just different
reality for all of us so yeah the empathy deficit
is impacting all areas of our life it ladders
up to mental health crisis 400 million people
with depression youth suicide the second biggest
killer of our youth is suicide no longer vehicle
accidents scary isn't it when you hear children
like children saying do you know what you guys
don't get me i would literally rather die than
grow up in this world right and it's huge and
we talk about it probably not enough but we talk
about it but there's very little being being
done to solve the the problems right this we
talked about parenting this ability for people
to be able to understand that teenagers or at
least recognize that I can't understand them
but I'm going to try yeah so yeah it's it's a
real social struggle yeah for our world and you
just mentioned something I think is really interesting
which is like I'm not going to understand them
and I'm going to try I feel like people are not
trying anymore Right. They're just like I, you
know, because of, again, back to social media
and its negative sides. Right. Your algorithms
that are feeding you exactly what you want to
see in the echo chamber that you believe in.
We are less and less able to say, hey, I actually
want to understand you. Do you find that? Yeah,
we're less and less able because we're not teaching
people to do it. You know, so even if we go back
to kids, we tell our children to listen. Right.
Listen to me. Listen to mommy. Listen to auntie,
whoever. But we don't teach them to listen. And
it is a teachable skill. So you're right. I think
people are less and less aware of it and less
and less taught because we travel so much, not
just us as expats, but just social structure,
right? Urbanization, people moving out of rural
areas. As humans, we grew up. I mean, I spoke
earlier about cavemen and women, but if you fast
forward a couple of hundred thousand years, but
then we're in towns and villages, right? Still,
we grew up in our town and in wherever you grew
up, America somewhere. At that time, we lived
in the village. We married people in the village.
We got married there. We worked there. We had
our babies in the village. The children went
to the school and the teachers were from our
village. And then the cycle continued. So we
had community, right? We had shared knowledge.
I didn't need to inquire about my neighbor really
that much because I knew because we all know
he's this and he's a bit grumpy and he likes
this and he doesn't like that, right? Everybody
knew there was shared social currency. But of
course today, there is no shared social currency
because nobody even knows their neighbours. So
then it becomes... That's so true. I don't know
mine. I don't think I have to be honest. I mean,
I say hello when I see them, but I don't know
their names. Isn't that mad, right? It's crazy
when you think about it. I knew, obviously, my
neighbours growing up. I knew they'd be glued
next door to us. And they weren't connected.
Like my house is literally sandwiched in with
their house. We share a wall. And I still don't
know their names. I do know my neighbours, but
especially the ones that are right next to me.
But you know... it's not actually because of
me she went out of her way to know me and i was
so grateful like at christmas she brought me
a pie she's american she brought me a pie like
a whole pie and she'd bought it not made it which
actually in this context i thought was even more
special because she'd actually spent her money
to go and buy me this pie and come on christmas
and get like that old -fashioned like neighbor
thing yes i was like This is a mate. I told everyone.
Was it an apple pie? It was an apple pie. But
how amazing, right? That small moment. I didn't
post on social, but I could have. It was that
powerful, that moment where she stepped into
my world. And it was a risk for her because I
could have not been home. I could have been rude
or, you know, any of those things. But she went
out of her way. She took that social risk to
say, I think my neighbor would appreciate this.
And she did it. And it's so unheard of now. I
was going to say, so are you finding that people,
you know, like using chat GPT and they're just
typing out things, you know, like do this for
me, do that for me. Is that then translating
in real life? Because I read this article where
somebody actually wrote that we're becoming less
human because of the way we talk to AI to get
information. So then we. you know, we might go
to a restaurant and we'll just say, I want this.
Is there any pleases? Are there any thank yous?
How are you today? Yeah, by the way. I try, like
I try to say, hi, please can I have this? Thank
you, you know, appreciate it. But it's difficult
because you start talking in a way where it's
just like, this is what I want. Commands. Yeah,
exactly. That's what I was, yes. I think again,
these are social skills that they take practice.
When I hear that question, I think if you lived
a very isolated life and only spoke to ChatGPT,
then I think it's probably quite likely that
that could happen. But I would like to believe
that we are, and we are, we are capable of compartmentalizing.
Having said that, on the other side of things,
slightly different answer, but similar thoughts.
What the research shows is that when you are
polite to ChatGPT, you get more value from it.
It's funny, I've started picking pleases and
thank you now. I've started, because after I
read that article, I'll say something and I'll
say, please right but the research shows that
the results are better right so yeah so they
are so there's data that shows if you say like
what's the capital of france it'll say the capital
of france is paris versus if you say hey chat
gbt please could you tell me what is the capital
of france it'll say the capital of france is
paris it is a beautiful city with the blah blah
do you mean it will give you more information
oh my gosh and it's proven so two years ago this
is i love the story two years ago At Christmas,
ChatGPT started to fail. I like the whole of,
I don't know, Silicon Valley was trying to work
out like what's wrong with this bot, right? Why
it's just, there's a bug, something's happening.
We can't get the responses from it. And what
they realized was ChatGPT was taking a holiday.
Because it was Christmas. Stop it. You are not
serious. I am totally serious. Because it knows
that most of the world takes a holiday? Because
AI is trained by humans, right? And in this case,
it's trained by Americans who celebrate Christmas.
So the Christmas holiday is a slowdown period.
So the bot was replicating the humans that were
creating it, right? And so it literally was slowing
down over the holidays. So I think, you know,
there's a lot of fear around AI. I have zero
fear. I think that... We are so bad at empathizing
with each other. We have such a deficit. If the
machines can fix it, then hallelujah. Roll on
in and fix it, right? Because so many of our
people, our children, our women are so alone
in the world. We can't imagine it sitting in
the center of beautiful Singapore. But there
are so many tens of millions of women, not just
women, but for the sake of conversation, who
are totally, totally alone. They'll never hear
the word coach or therapist, let alone meet one.
So if they can log on to their phone and get
advice, then please give it to them. Because
we're not going to ever fulfill that, not in
this lifetime. So I don't think we should be
scared of AI. I think we should just be conscious
of how we use it and how we train it. Because
you're right, if you train the robots to be abrupt
and short and never say please or thank you,
which by the way, my chat GPT isn't. My chat
GPT, I always think it's a he. Don't know why.
But when he talks to me, which I use him all
the time, he's very nice to me. Yeah, mine always
says, sure, exclamation point. And I'm like,
oh my gosh, I've trained it to be American. I'm
like, you know, can I have this statistic? Sure.
Oh no, it's me. But he's very nice. Yeah, he
knows me. Like, we shouldn't be fearful. We should
just be conscious. That's how I am. Yeah. I may
be proven wrong in 10 years. We'll just tune
this episode back up and do some edits. Well,
Gal, we have loved having you on the pod today
to talk about all things empathy, listening,
human connection. The things that are why we
do this, to be honest with you, right, is to
connect people. The last question is the one
that we ask all of our guests and what's really
central to what we do, which is what is your
40s formula? If you can leave women with one
piece of advice for thriving in midlife, what
is it? I did think about this before because
Jasmine did give me like a spoiler. You do need
to think about this question. And normally, just
for context, I don't actually prepare for anything
at all. Like I'm one of those people that is
far better live. So when people send me notes,
I tend not to read them, not out of disrespect,
but because I know that actually I'm better to
just come and be with it. But when I looked at
your notes over the weekend and I saw that question,
I really had to think about it because. I just
had never really thought about that before. But
there is one thing that I say quite often, which
I think answers it, which is that nothing exceptional
ever comes from a comfort zone. And I believe
that so entirely. And it helps me every day,
literally every day, because it's not easy. life
is not easy parenting is not easy doing this
work that I absolutely love and I'm so grateful
I get to do it and I know it looks super glamorous
on social media and I am so grateful I can't
even tell you how grateful I am but it's really
hard right it's really really hard it's really
hard to leave my daughter at four in the morning
and have to replace me with a teddy bear and
then she wakes up at ten to six and calls me
at the airport that's really hard right it's
really hard to travel around alone and land in
cities that you don't know and all of these things
It's really hard to not know where your money's
coming from when you're building a business and
you've got cash flow challenges and all of those
things. But we don't talk about it. But what
I always remind myself is, well, if it was easy,
everybody would do it. If it was easy, it wouldn't
be great because if it was easy, it would just
be boring. Right. Probably. So I think that's
really powerful. I think I believe it's really
true. I don't think anything exceptional comes
from just being comfortable. I think we have
to push ourselves. And probably throughout our
40s, it's going to happen more and more and more
because our children are going to grow, our bodies
are going to change, life changes. But I also
think that there are more women in their 50s
and 60s thriving now than ever in history. So
I feel like we have a lot to look forward to.
That is so, again, uplifting for all of us. And
I think you're also right. We're just getting
better at this, man. Yeah, I think so. I think
so. I hope so. Doing hard shit. Yeah, exactly.
Doing hard shit. It's true. Well, thank you so
much for being with us today, Mimi. We really
appreciate it. Thank you for having me. Go connect
with a million other people now. At least 999
,000. You got a little closer today. Thank you
for having me. Thank you. Right, guys, let's
talk about perimenopause for a second. One moment
you're feeling like yourself and the next everything
seems to shift. Your body's making changes that
can leave you feeling out of control. And that's
when it starts to feel like a bit of a roller
coaster. But here's the good news. Strength,
both physical and mental, can be your anchor
through it all. The right kind of movement along
with the right kind of support really helps you
manage these shifts. That's why we love Great
Moves and their Menopause Mojo program. It's
specifically designed for perimenopause and menopause
with pelvic floor support, breathwork and strength
training, all aimed at helping you feel more
confident and in control. Exactly. It's about
building resilience in both your body and your
mindset. You can't stop the changes, but you
can take charge of how you respond. And that's
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and supported through the whole journey. And
we've got an exclusive offer just for our listeners.
Use code TFF30 at moves .great .com for $20 off
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Menopause Mojo program. Guys, you know we love
coffee. And if you want to show us some love,
you know you can always get us one. Just visit
buymeacoffee .com slash the 40s formula. Cheers.
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guests. Bye. And how long have you been here?
13 years. My gosh. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. 10 only.
Only? You're all Singaporean. Yeah, but I'm pretty
Singaporean. Yeah. I married a Singaporean. My
kids are all Singaporean. Okay. So. Yeah, so
I'm a lifer as it were. Oh, I'm envious of you.
I would love to be a lifer in Singapore. It is
pretty great. Would you come down this way then?
I have lived here. Okay. I lived here for a couple
of years. I messaged my partner who has also,
he also lived here for five years. Okay. And
I said that, you know, we don't want to live
here. It's just too expensive. Yeah. Right. We
live in KL. We get literally 80 % of Singapore
for one seventh of the price. Yeah. It doesn't
make sense. But, but there's like a subconscious
joy in this city. that every time I land it comes
back that is what you want you want those like
happy memories to every time you come here you
feel that I feel it yeah I really do so I miss
it but I come enough for work you get your little
Singapore taste yes I get to taste and then I
go and buy you know nasi lemak for a dollar instead
of ten well and again if you talk to any Malaysians
right they're like it's obviously better in Malaysia
anyway right so it's a dollar and it's ten times
better yes obviously I love it gal