Guys, we have some exciting news. The 40s Formula
is going live on August 14th at the Green Collective
at Funan Mall. We are going to dive deep into
the science, myths, and struggles around sugar
addiction. Breakfast and coffee are on us, thanks
to the generous sponsors, Guzman y Gomez. It's
a small and intimate event with only 15 spots,
so it's first come, first served. Tickets are
only 20 bucks, and that includes breakfast and
$5 towards your purchase at the Green Collective.
Come and join us for a conversation that might
change the way you eat. Think and fail. Boys
are falling behind. They're falling behind academically.
They're falling behind emotionally. We have a
mental health crisis in men. We have one in boys
too. We know that suicide kills more men under
50 than anything else. The boy issue was invisible
to me until I became a boy mom. A better world
for boys and men is a better world for girls
and women too. Social media and the internet
has just accelerated the process. This generation
of parents struggles. to let go and lose control.
How can we help them do riskier things? Boys
do struggle with impulse control, with their
ability to regulate their emotions. They're about
18 months behind girls, usually. I think traditionally
schools have prized typically female traits,
haven't they? Yes, you're right. 92 % of prisons
are filled with men. Men and boys were taught
to validate our worth through achievements. The
negative impact could be that boys or men feel
more worthless. and welcome to The 40s Formula,
your go -to place for insightful discussions
on navigating the 40s and thriving in this transformative
decade. We're your hosts, Jasmine and Amanda,
two women that are passionate about exploring
the challenges and adventures that come with
turning 40 and what lies ahead. All right, before
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Today we're turning the spotlight into a conversation
that has been making waves since the Netflix
drama Adolescence and that is what does it mean
to be a boy and eventually a man in today's world?
Are we really listening to our boys or are we
still telling them to man up and just get on
with it? And as a mum of three boys myself I
feel this conversation is especially close to
home because like so many parents I want to understand
the pressures they are facing and what we can
do to support them to grow into healthy competent,
connected, and emotionally strong men. So with
us today, we've got two brilliant minds. We have
Dr. Neil Forrest, a GP at Osler Health, who is
a preferred doctor for adolescence health. And
we also have Dr. Emma Waddington, a psychotherapist
and the co -founder of Us Therapy. And today
we're going to be unpacking identity, emotion,
influence, and everything in between. And this
is one of those episodes that I feel every parent
every teacher and every teen will need to listen
to. So welcome, welcome to the 40s Formula. Before
we get going, I feel like the first question
I want to ask is why do we need to have this
conversation today? Why? Gosh, so many reasons
really. Neil and I have been on a... What would
we call it? On a run, we've had now conversations
with, I think it's six or seven schools, on boys,
really, because we need to be thinking about
our boys. Boys are falling behind. They're falling
behind academically. They're falling behind emotionally.
We have a mental health crisis in men. We have
one in boys too. We know that suicide kills more
men under 50 than anything else. So we need to
be having these conversations because we're doing
something wrong. And I think the conversation
needs to be had by mothers. And really, if I'm
honest, I talk about this a lot. The boy issue
was invisible to me until I became a boy mom.
Up until then, I thought, you know, girls had
it harder. And I'm not going to say that as women,
we don't have a hard time because we do. And
there's still a lot of work to do in that area.
But I don't think that means we neglect the well
-being of boys and men. And I'm quite passionate
about this because I believe that a better world
for boys and men is a better world for girls
and women too. Like, why do we have to prioritize
one over the other? There's no competition here.
We don't have to make it into one. We need to
think about all of us because it's an us -us
problem, really. I think you're 100 % right.
And just like you mentioned, I never thought
of it as an issue. You know, I was always for
like, oh, women need to do this and girls need
to do this. And now I've got three boys myself
and I'm thinking, what can I do to help them?
Because you're right, they are struggling in
so many areas. Dr. Neil, why do you think that
this is an issue? I think it's... become an issue
that we can talk about. I think it's been an
issue for a long time, and I think maybe a lot
of boys and men have felt that way, but it's
not really been acceptable for a long time to
talk about some of those challenges because the
focus, as it rightly should be in society, is
always on groups that are... marginalized or
struggling and that's never really been men before
um and i think even though you could see the
the the roots of these problems taking hold at
10 years ago if you tried to have this conversation
people would say you're talking about you don't
need to be worried about men and boys and i i
think probably the other thing is like so many
areas of mental health and well -being and and
the things we see in our children social media
and the internet has just accelerated the process.
And maybe these things were building at a low
level. Maybe with the equalization of opportunity
over time between men and women, society would
have adapted to that organically. But then the
internet just dials everything up to 100 and
turns on the accelerator. And so I think societal
changes happen at such a rate now that people
struggle, systems, schools, parents. teachers
struggle to adapt quickly enough to what's happening.
Even parents, you know, like I feel as parents,
we don't know what's going on. You know, we know,
we can see what's happening, but really deep
down inside, it's really hard to see. I feel
like they've got a new language. There's just
so much stuff that we just can't keep up with.
So what can parents do to try to help the boys
in this situation? Not knowing exactly what our
young people are doing all the time and finding
their ways of communicating. a little bit alien,
is nothing new, right? That's been going on for
years. And if you'd sat our parents down, they'd
probably say exactly the same. What's changed,
I guess, you know, it's a difficult one, isn't
it? I think our generation of parents, so I'm
a bit older than you guys, I'm lumping myself
in with you guys. That's all right. Come on in.
This generation of parents struggles to let go
and... lose control over situations and so there
is a theory I don't know I think I think we've
spoken about this haven't we Emma where we've
focused so much on making the physical environment
as safe and danger -free and we've been incredibly
successful at doing that for our kids and we've
kind of taken our eye off all the other risks
they may be taking or things they might be doing
I don't know I I'm one of three boys and I just
feel like my parents and their generation, they
seem more comfortable with letting us go a little
bit. And I think we, in the modern world, struggle
with that. I was saying to my husband, actually,
that my son is a... going to turn 10 in a few
months' time, that we should now probably let
him get on a bus, maybe make a trip down to the
shop. And I know I was doing that at a much younger
age. And not in Singapore. No, not in Singapore.
Where that is an absolutely safe thing to do
across the board. One of the parents at the last
talk we did, I think it was at the German school,
one of the questions said... how can we help
them take more risks? And most of the questions
were around, how can we keep them safe? How can
we stop them doing this? And this, it was a dad,
wasn't it? Said, Singapore's too safe. How can
we help them do riskier things? And I thought
it was a good question. You know, it's always
a balance, isn't it? You don't want them to be
an unnecessary danger. But I think children in
general, but boys in particular, thrive by...
pushing boundaries and taking risks sometimes.
Yeah, I mean, this is something that is constantly
at odds in my own home. So I live in a multi
-generational home where my husband is Singaporean.
We live with his parents and they're traditional
Chinese Singaporean. And so our ability to handle
risk is quite different because I'm American.
I grew up in a traditional American home where,
to give you an idea of our parenting, my parents'
parenting style, my dad always said, you know
how they got helicopter parents? Right. That
hover over the kids. He's like, we were submarine
parents every now and then throw up the periscope.
All good. Back under the surface. And that should
tell you a bit about how I was raised, you know,
quite, quite liberally. And so it's really it
comes into play. My kids are very small. One,
three and five are my kids ages. But particularly
my middle boy, who's three. He's at the age now
where he's jumping off everything, running into
walls. The other day he smashed a glass bottle
on the floor just to see what it would do. You
know, not out of anger, just like, let's see
what happens. Why is everyone so up in arms about
glass? And it drives my parents -in -law crazy.
And so what's been difficult for us, and I don't
know if this is something you can give, you know,
intercultural, multigenerational homes a little
tip of the hat here, is how do you manage when
the expectations of caregivers... are so different
in the avoidance of risk or acceptance of risk
around our boys. You see that even between partners,
right? The classical experiments where they would
let a parent watch a child climb a climbing frame.
On average, a mom will stop them. Three or four
runs lower than the dad will let them to go for.
And of course, you see that across cultures as
well. I think for you guys as parents and grandparents,
it's probably about having very over... open
conversations about what your expectations are
and and and that that's just a gonna be a challenge
in so many different ways but i think ultimately
it's for you and your husband as the parents
to make the calls together as to where the boundaries
are and what's what's the right that there is
no right way to do it there's no single way it'll
be different for all three of your kids yeah
um and i think i think one of the challenges
with what we get asked emma does a great bit
when we do these talks on neurodivergence and
people really want to know about that okay how
do i do this with a child who has adhd or how
do i do this with a child who has autism and
the problem is they're very broad terms on if
you've met a kid with autism you've just met
one kid with autism tell you what the next one's
going to be like really so as parents and teachers
we've really got to get to know them as individuals
and work out what makes them tick. And I think
what makes a lot of boys tick is different. And
I think that's what we struggle with. And that's
the complexity. And just coming back to your
piece on risk -taking and boys and the fact that
we've become more and more protective of children.
And I think that is particularly striking in
Singapore when it is so safe. I think boys more
and more need to be getting out there, taking
their own risks as safe as possible. And instead,
we're keeping them indoors or doing tuition or
doing all these things that actually, if we think
of developmentally, boys do struggle. with impulse
control, with their ability to regulate their
emotions. They're about 18 months behind girls,
usually. I did mention smashing a bottle on the
floor, right? Yeah, exactly. But he's three.
If he was doing this at 18, he might have another
conversation. I mean, to be fair, it wouldn't
surprise me. Actually, you know what? It's experimental.
And isn't it wonderful? This is why I love...
I mean, I've got two boys and I just love boys.
Like they teach me so much about living really
fully, sometimes too fully. And I'll have to
sort of I use my my husband, I think, is also
a bit on the sort of north of risk taking than
I'd like him to be. So I have to adjust and I'll.
sort of um reflect to him you know this is their
idea is it a good idea because my my knee jerk
is no we're not doing this this is like really
bad i'll ask him and then i'll kind of find a
compromise between me and him because i think
him he's too far out there personally but he'd
probably argue otherwise um and he's one of three
boys i'm one of three Three girls. So I think
that also has an impact on our parenting. Like
girls are generally more conservative. Our sort
of prefrontal cortex that the front of our brain
develops comes on air much quicker than boys.
We're talking about those 18 months, but it can
really vary. Some boys are behind that. Some
boys are ahead of that. But it means that we
sort of think things through a little faster.
But that doesn't mean that the boy's decision
making is wrong. And I think that's what we need
to think as mothers and educators and in our
community, that just because it looks like a
bad idea doesn't make it a bad idea always. I
think traditionally schools have prized... typically
female traits. Yes, you're right. Being organized,
listening, attention, sitting still. I mean,
those are great things. If you put yourself in
a teacher's shoes, that's what you want, right?
That's what makes your life easier. Most primary
school teachers are women. Yes, that's a problem.
And so it's a difficult balance to strike because
do we say that the boy that's disrupting the
class or tearing the room apart? Carry on doing
what you're doing. Sometimes it sounds like we're
saying don't socialize your children. Don't teach
them what normal behavior and interactions is
about. And it's important for them to develop
those things because if they can't get on with
other kids and make people like them. and want
to listen to them, then they're going to struggle
in later life. So that it is a difficult balance.
Sorry, Neil and I can have this conversation
on our own. But I love that thought that actually
what we're inviting children to do is be really
smart at reading the context. Right. It's not
a description of what is right or wrong, but
it's more about what's right or wrong. in this
moment like when i'm with grandma what should
i be doing i'd probably be sort of more mindful
about how i behave and obviously a three -year
-old that's incredibly sophisticated but that
is a life skill yeah asking people to regulate
and know when to you know when is it okay to
shout and when is it not okay is a really important
interpersonal skill and i think that what we
have done with boys is say you're just wrong.
Your ideas are bad. You're not thinking straight.
You need to sort yourself out. I mean, boys are
much more likely to get expelled from school,
to get labeled with a behavioral diagnosis than
girls who are doing exactly the same things.
So it's not just the boys are more likely to
do it. But even when, you know, girls do it,
they don't get the same consequences. Boys get
more punished. And as we know, they're less likely
to finish school, etc. Like 92 % of prisons are
filled with. men that's probably a good reason
for that but there's also something to be you
know said about how we label boys and men's behavior
as acceptable or unacceptable and how we start
to become a bit broader and a bit more flexible
and because you know 50 of the planet is male,
50 % is female, we need to be able to accommodate
a broader range of behavior across all contexts.
And we need to begin with schools, or at least
schools is an important one to address because
that's where we're getting, you know, they're
starting a journey that is a long journey. So
what can schools do to help boys thrive? Because
like you mentioned earlier, that the boys are
falling behind. So what... What would work in
a school environment to help them, I guess, not
fall behind, you know, to get ahead? There's
two sort of strands to that. You can help boys
by teaching them what might be quote unquote
terms as more female behaviours and ways of communicating.
So you can give them the language to try and
express their emotions and not suppress them
or find other. ways to vent them so you can you
can you can teach boys early uh about the the
the words they can use to describe their emotions
to that that talking about the way they feel
can be helpful and then i think you can also
accept that there are differences with a lot
of boys and so giving them ways to to learn and
express you know they tend to like doing things
rather than thinking about things giving them
more action -based things and maybe the way we
validate them i think so the traditional view
is that men and boys were taught to validate
our worth through achievements what do we know
what have we achieved what have we won how much
do we earn what's our job how can we provide
or protect and and and not just who we are and
that people love us because we exist and They
just love us for who we are. And so I think there's
a little bit of maybe teaching boys to exist
in a woman's world. And then there's also allowing
them to still be boys. Did either of you guys
go to single -sex schools? No, I went to a mixed
school, but my husband is... one of three, like
your husband and yourself, he went to a boys'
school. Because we've had this conversation about
when the boys get older, what would be better
for them? Would it be better for them to go to
a mixed school or a boys' school? And initially
we decided in mixed school, and I think we were
thinking it might be better for them not to feel
like, you know, the females and sex is something,
you know, that you can't talk to because it's
like, oh my God, you know, there are girls there.
But actually now I think if we switch it and
we look at it from a different context, from
a learning environment, maybe being in a environment
where they're not going to be disturbed and they
can be themselves might be a better thing. Did
you go to a boys school? I and my two brothers
went to an all boys school. And I wouldn't sort
of particularly promote one over the other. But
it's certainly true that I think in all boys
schools, you get to sort of essentially be stupid
idiots all together and make all your mistakes
in an all male environment. And there are disadvantages,
I'm sure. But there are some advantages to being
in that. environment and just sort of through
through certain developmental phases I think
or there certainly were for for for me with regards
to what Emma said about some girls being 18 months
ahead in terms of emotional development if you
take the oldest girl in a class and the youngest
boy that could be a two and a half year difference
in maturity and one of the things you notice
in adolescence in the in the drama is that the
boy and his friends look and sound very young
and immature and the girls that they've been
associating with look like and sound like young
women yeah they've clearly done chosen that 13
year old sort of age on purpose a lot of girls
have well most girls would have been expected
to hit puberty by that point yeah many boys wouldn't
so there's there's striking physical differences
i was reading actually that the the girls are
entering puberty sooner and boys are entering
it later like the gap is getting even greater
oh and what's interesting what you said you know
my husband did not go to an all -boys school
but guess what he did do the army You know, he's
Singaporean, so he did his mandatory army service.
It's funny, right, that the army is two years,
and there's this 18 -month developmental gap,
and the army's happening just before kind of
the completion of the prefrontal cortex development,
right? And it's like all those things matter.
And I honestly think, like so many, you guys,
I'm the most patriotic Singaporean that's not
Singaporean, but this is where I think Singapore
and other countries that do this have it right,
is that they basically take men out. at this,
you know, very kind of volatile age, 18 to 20,
right? And allow them to kind of catch up while
experiencing the benefits of being in that all
-male environment that you mentioned. I've had
exactly the same thought. It's smart, but I don't
think it's deliberate. I mean, I think they're
doing it for defense. Deliberate for defense
and then the social benefit happened. Yeah, and
I think they're like, let's keep this, you know?
Because then maybe you come out of national service
and you're hitting college, university. at exactly
the same maturity as the girls that are starting
at 18, 18 and a half. And again, you know, college
and uni, absolutely. And I think from a Singapore
social development stance, you know, marriage
and family, I think that, you know, that's where
it's like now they're more ready for the potential,
you know, being a partner in marriage that is
more successful and, you know, all the incentives
that Singapore offers to that side. And I think,
again, the army kind of plays the role of the
all boys school in this. I think it also, it
probably plays a role in. um giving so obviously
it's a focus it's very action based it's doing
stuff and it's gives you value wherever you've
come from whatever whatever you're going to do
next you're all contributing to something that
the nation values and it gives you a sense of
of worth i think yeah I have to put a butt in,
I'm afraid. The psychologist in me always has
a depends. It's the most annoying characteristic
of psychologists. But I guess for me, all boys
school, national service, it depends the kind
of boy that you have. I mean, there is a narrative
that boys need to be strong. And they have to
be physically strong, emotionally strong. And
that narrative can be reinforced in men and boy
communities. And so if you have a boy who isn't
physically strong, who is emotionally more delicate,
you know, that could be a really poor match.
So I think like everything, it depends on the
on the child. I've seen lots of boys really struggle
in all boys schools and I've seen lots of victims
of national service. So I think like everything,
it depends on the needs of the individual. And
I think some boys do really well around girls.
I'm a big proponent of mixed co -ed versus single
sex because I do think that we need to live together.
And I think. perhaps it's a bit overambitious
but I think we should just get better at adapting
to differences just like we have the neurodivergence
conversation and movement really this neuroaffirming
I think gender affirming like it's so nice to
finally talk about gender differences once upon
a time we couldn't It was not allowed. So we're
moving forward and thinking about, you know,
how we're different and how we meet such different
needs. And I think we can be more sophisticated
and evolve, even though it's difficult. Earlier,
Neil mentioned that the sort of the old notion
of men and boys was like protect her and being
strong. And now women are in a place and girls
are in a place where they don't need someone
to protect them. They don't need someone to provide
for them. So with this sort of change in role,
how is that affecting boys and I guess young
men as well? The negative impact could be that
boys or men feel more worthless or less useful
when it's put in those terms. I think the way
to... put a positive take on it would be so a
lot of what psychologists do correct me if I'm
wrong here but a lot of behavioral therapy is
about reframing unproductive thoughts right so
we think these things that we think are true
and they don't help us and we reframe them and
into something else and and so protecting and
providing could be reframed into serving You
can still you don't have to physically protect
someone to to or financially provide for someone
to still fulfill those roles of someone who sort
of gets value from serving or helping other people.
And so we just need to give boys and men a different
way of expecting them not to have those traits,
I think, is unrealistic. It's how do we channel
those into something? positive because the flip
side to what this boy in adolescence has gone
down the the online rabbit hole of hearing is
that if you don't do those things you're not
a real man that women think they don't need protecting
but really they do uh that men should be providing
for women and women should be all these all these
well -known sort of tropes that are that are
being uh sold to young men now as the answer
to the problems they might be facing. I think
we need to reframe that into something more meaningful
and positive for them. Amanda, can we talk about
how clean Guzmany Gomez's food is? Like truly
clean, not the it has letters so it's healthy
kind of clean. Oh, totally. GYG is on another
level. There's no preservatives, no artificial
colors, no weird additives. It is just proper,
real food. I read that they went through 21 versions
of their corn chips before they found the one.
Now that's commitment. And they fly in their
avocados and tomatoes daily from Australia to
Singapore. That is the level of commitment I
want in my food. You can taste it, whether it's
the burritos, the bowls, or those chipotle -seasoned
fries. You just feel good after eating it. And
it's really why my entire family keeps going
back. Clean is the new healthy, and GYG has been
leading that charge since day one. They've literally
reinvented fast food. Who says it has to be dodgy
and deep -fried? Not on GYG's watch. Can I ask
you, though, are these well -known tropes now?
I feel like I was introduced to the tropes by
watching adolescence. They were not well -known
to me, all this 80 -20 rule and, you know, this
kind of like, you know, hyper -masculine underground.
Yeah, this is all new to me. So is this, am I
just obviously behind the times? Yeah, I mean,
these guys have been around for quite a long
time now. They've always been around. Yeah. I
mean, to a certain extent, just not on social
media. Yeah. And I mean, you know, Andrew Tate
obviously being the, you know, the headliner
there, but like what ages are the most kind of
susceptible to this online presence? All ages
can be vulnerable to it, but I think the developing
brain is far more suggestive and susceptible
to any kind of misinformation or whatever you
want to call it. So, you know, I think if you
look at someone like the rise of Jordan Peterson,
say, look at the demographics that attend his
events, it would be men of all ages, certainly
not exclusively young men, but it seemed to have
particular resonance. in, I would say, that late
adolescent sort of age bracket. Even young, though.
I was looking at some stats that are really quite
striking that this kind of manosphere or this
radical masculinity content is being pushed,
unfortunately, by algorithms. And about 69%,
I was reading, of 11 to 15 -year -olds have had
exposure to this content. Wow. And only about...
sort of 50 to 60, no, sorry, 50 to 60 % of which
hadn't searched for it. So it's being pushed
even though they don't look for it. And obviously
it's really provocative. And sort of coming back
to your point, you know, some of these dilemmas
that our boys face. And I think it's genuine
that, you know, it was really black and white
what men needed to do. They needed to provide.
They needed to be strong. I don't think everybody
met that criteria once upon a time. But now it's
more complicated because actually. Since the
Me Too movement, I think there's been a shift
where boys are getting really mixed messages.
On the one hand, they're being told they need
to be really strong and need to provide. On the
other hand, they can see women are getting more
and more successful, although not yet as successful
as men. I think some of this manosphere content
confuses the data. We're still far from where
we need to be in terms of women. But we are no
longer... you know, sitting in the kitchen. So,
as often. I'm going to be cooking dinner. Yes,
exactly. The manosphere content is not designed
to appeal to men who are already successful in
a happy relationship. No, no, no. Absolutely.
It's targeting men who do feel left behind. Who
are lost and confused, ostracized. I mean, if
you look at the vulnerability factors, it's,
you know, it's often young men. who have been
bullied, who are failing in relationships, who
are not getting girlfriends. The neurodivergent
community is very vulnerable to this. So it's
not the successful men. It's the men that are...
you know, falling behind. So that's why we need
to think about them because they get fed this
message that they need to be strong and aggressive
and reject the feminist narrative because that's
the problem. These types of online ideologies,
now it's not just the manosphere, that can happen
with, say, religious radicalization. It could
be anything. It's like a kind of grooming. That's
how I see it. And not all the content creators
are male. There's an increasing number, particularly
in the US, of female influencers who buy into
this idea. And just, you know, that adds sort
of fuel. Yeah, I should be at home. You know,
a man should be this. I mean, there's always
been that. Yeah. That narrative, right? There's
certain women who find that really important.
In older generations online now, you've got the
sort of the trad wife. Oh, you mean like somebody
who wants to find a rich guy and not... Yeah,
or just going back to very traditional values.
Some of it's rooted in religion. Some of it's
rooted in just a yearning to go back to the way
things were. A lot of teenagers, not just boys,
but I think particularly boys, spend an inordinate
amount of time thinking about the opposite sex,
being attracted to girls, wanting to get a girlfriend,
wanting to experiment and all the rest of it.
And the reality is you spend a lot of the time
wanting a girlfriend or or or being attracted
to some girl in your class or whatever and not
sort of having any success there and so what
this offers is a way out of that situation not
just it's normal it happens not every girl's
going to fall in love with you don't worry about
it you'll meet someone it's uh well if you can't
find a girl just go to the gym and start lifting
weights and get huge and be on steroids. Yeah,
make yourself an alpha. Yeah, exactly. And actually,
we don't need women. Instead of just these are
the normal ebbs and flows of adolescence and,
you know, most people will work it out for themselves
sooner or later if they're left alone. And you
know what's the heartbreaking, like what adolescence
really displays in what you just said, right?
Which is, you know, go to the gym, make yourself
start. So the obvious and unfortunate kind of
peak of that manosphere is, you know, he obviously
kills the girl, right? So that's the extreme
act of violence, right? Where it's like, wow,
that really reached a pinnacle. But what really
got me in the series, the exact moment where
I lost it, was when the therapist is about to
leave, you know, the sessions are over and, you
know, he's off to prison. And he said, do you
like me? Do you like me? And it was just heartbreaking
that like the whole thing, if you take away the
acts of violence and the woman hating and the
be the alpha male and stuff, it exposes this
deep vulnerability of just wanting any attention
from the opposite sex, any validation. And that
part was that really got me. I think what most
young men would benefit from is. one or more
influential male figures, inspirational male
figures in their life, whether that's their dad
or a teacher or a coach or whatever. And in this
series, so the dad struggled, right? I think
he was a plumber or an electrician, plumber,
full -time, busy, didn't have time, struggled.
He'd taken the boy to football and boxing. He
hadn't liked those things. Those were his ways
of... trying to do something together, it hadn't
worked out. The male police officer, his relationship
with his son was, you know, he was busy, didn't
really know how to communicate with him. The
teachers were struggling, so there was this theme
that the boys didn't have anyone to turn to,
so the person they turned to was available 24
-7 on their phone or their... screen in their
bedroom and just being funneled in there and
so I think if if we don't act as those inspirations
then social media will take care of it for us
and we might not like the inspirational adults
we get served up by social media so I'm just
wondering so obviously role model is is a big
thing um for boys even for girls but for boys
in particular but let's say it is the father
You know, and the father still has, like, the
dad in adolescence, these different types of
ideologies. Like, to be a man, you need to be
sporty, you need to be tough, you need to do
all of these things. So when there's a mismatch
there, then how do you help develop that boy
into a, I guess, a healthy young man? My very
fundamental solution in a boy that's the age
he is in adolescence is, if I could, I'd... protect
them completely from that influence. I wouldn't
have phones. They wouldn't have access to social
media. I think it's utterly... toxic thing in
their lives it's creeping in there was a great
article in the times this weekend about how it's
creeping into education so all these e -learning
companies that like our children love to learn
from apps do you use to get you know my kids
both got ipads in school now they learn increasingly
through gamified type interfaces it's just a
way of getting us all on board with this stuff
ruling our lives. So that would be the first
thing. I would take the possibility of Andrew
Tate being able to communicate with my son in
any way off the table. Then you're left with,
okay, there have always been bad influences,
right? You know, people thought that the Beatles
were corrupting kids in the 60s, right? You know,
there's always been that. Kids don't want to
listen to their parents. They want to follow
the cool person on TV or whatever. But I think...
if they don't have 24 -hour access to it if it's
not hyper personalized to them by an algorithm
as parents and as teachers it's a bit easier
for us to to have our influence in that yeah
and i think this idea that it takes a village
i think what's happening is that we're becoming
more and more insular and actually it's so common
that there is a mismatch between parents and
children and i think when i think about you know
myself or people that I've worked with or communities
that I've supported over the years. I mean, it
goes through ebbs and flows with our children.
We might go through a period where we're connecting
really well, then we disconnect, then we reconnect.
It's like any relationship. And so that's why
you want to extend the community. You want especially
boys who are hitting these ages from sort of
middle school. Middle school is a super complicated
time for both boys and girls. But developmentally,
it's when... Boys are really starting to get
more feelings. They don't have the language because
we just don't talk like that with boys enough.
But if they had different people in their lives,
different role models, be it... You know, either
their sports coach or it could be an aunt, a
cousin. It could be someone's, you know, husband,
a friend, you know, different influences. They
can see different ways of being a man. I love
the idea of men's group and boys groups. You
know, we used to have a lot of scouts. I don't
know what's happened to them. They don't happen
so often. But I think it's with the right influences
and the right sort of language, I think it's
a great thing to have more people involved in
our parenting journey because it's not always
the right person. And especially through adolescence
where parents sort of drop down the hierarchy
and get lower and lower and lower. That's why
you need other people to be. higher up on the
hierarchy. You know, peers are always the priority,
but it could be your fun aunt or uncle or that
you can call and say, oh, you know, dad's been
a real jerk. You know, and you can commiserate.
And I think that we need to give permission for
that because that's just normal. It really is.
And so then they don't. have to do it online.
The reason they turn to some of these community
online is because they give these recipes. They
give answers. This is what you need to do. Come
join us. You know, it's true. Life is, you know,
awful. You know, men are struggling, etc. You
know, there's really concrete answers to their
problems and they find their tribe, a sense of
belonging, just like they join gangs. You know,
my sister works with knife crime in London and
that's what's happening in London, but they're
joining gangs. incredibly dangerous as that is.
But who are the risk, the children that are at
risk to join gangs? I think it's very similar
to the children that are at risk to listen to
these online platforms. If you're connecting,
chatting to your child, if your child feels safe
to raise things that they're uncomfortable about
with you or with someone in their community,
they're less likely to get influenced and sort
of, I'd like to think of it as grooming, into
those communities and those narratives. What
about the types of... friends your kids hang
around with like how much does that influence
their behavior and and what they do yeah i know
as parents you could do everything right but
if they get in with the wrong wrong kids what
can you do like what can you do it's really it's
really difficult isn't it i think what you can
do on that front is is as much as possible know
who they're with and what they're doing even
if you're not there supervising it so great example
in adolescence was that on the night that boy
committed the murder, they thought he was out
with his friends and he had been, but then they'd
left each other. Get to know their parents so
that you're all, you know, if there's an issue,
at least you're all sort of on the same team
if possible. I think if you really think they're
in with the wrong crowd, you can try and foster
new interests and nudge them gently in the right
direction. But I don't think picking your kids'
friends for them never works, right? If they're
in with the wrong crowd, they're not going to
listen. to the fact that you think it's the wrong
crowd. So I think that's really difficult. So
I'm hearing stories from my husband when he used
to say that once their parents went to bed, they'd
sneak out of the house, climb out the window
and stuff. Then how do you know what your kid's
doing? Well, that's what, when I said earlier,
I think that is what maybe our parents' generation
were much better at. I saw a teenage boy the
other day in my clinic and we were going through
his general health and the big issue for him
was that he was vaping and he was really hopelessly
addicted to vaping because very high nicotine
content. It's a real struggle for them to get
off. And my son's only 11. He's not quite at
that stage yet. I'm thinking, God, I would be.
freaking out yeah you know it's illegal in singapore
it's just this is a disaster the kids otherwise
completely fine healthy and the dad said to me
you know when i was his age i was going to the
beach with my mates we'd build a bonfire we'd
buy a couple of cases of beer we'd smoke cigarettes
all of those things were completely stupid but
he doesn't have anything like that here and he
needs to experiment and push boundaries and take
risks do i want him to be vaping of course i
don't am i going to try and help him stop of
course i am but i'm not going to sacrifice my
relationship with him yeah um and i just thought
well you know i hope i can uh hope i can take
that approach when i'm uh when i'm in the same
situation because think about what we all some
of us may have been better behaved than others
but i reckon we all did stuff as teenagers we
would be frowned upon if our own kids were doing
it. So it's not new that they want to, and going
out and killing someone's obviously just the
very extreme end of the scale. Of course. And
the outcomes actually, when you look at teenagers
who misbehave, they become sort of more regulated
and do better in early adulthood. The ones that
don't struggle in early adulthood. So there's
a function to it. Like we are taking risks. I
mean, our frontal lobe is malfunctioning, but
it's an identity. development stage like we're
testing that's why they're testing boundaries
with us as well at home they're experimenting
on you know the kind of music i want to listen
to my hairdo you know am i a sort of republican
or democrat or actually a liberal you know that's
all par for the course and it's just a difficult
ride for parents because we kind of have to sit
on the side of the roller coaster and watch them
go up and down we don't want to be on the roller
coaster with them But we also don't want to keep
an eye off them entirely because then that's
neglect. But there's a certain amount of it that
needs to happen in order for them to come out
the other end as a fully functioning adult or
fairly functioning adult. Sometimes it takes
up to the age of 30 for it to fully end the stage.
But it's an important stage. It's got a developmental
function. And we even see it in birds. We see
it across the animal kingdom that adolescents
take bigger risks and boys are usually more risky
than girls because of this developmental trajectory.
And I do think it's something that there can
be an even bigger mismatch with young people
and parents at that stage, depending on our temperament.
You know, if we are quite risk averse. then we're
going to struggle more if we've got a child who's
not as risk -averse as us. And I think I love
that, what your patient was saying, that the
relationship should trump everything. Because
at the end of the day, that's really the only
thing we can keep a hold of. They will leave
home. They'll make decisions for themselves.
What we want is them to be able to talk to us
and feel safe. And that does begin the minute
they're born. Like I have seen really sad stories
of parents who haven't worked on the relationship
and then teenage hits. And it's late. It's late
to be thinking about it. I don't think it's a
lost cause. We can work on it. But we really
need to be thinking, you know, at your stage,
like, do I, how do I involve my kids in conversations
and making decisions for themselves, developing
that autonomy? Obviously, at that stage, you
need to be holding them a bit closer than teenagers.
But by the age of teenage, you want to have some
confidence in their decision -making and go,
I'm not sure this is a great idea, but I'll trust
you and we'll talk about it later. I like that.
I think I'm going to have to start using that.
Because my son's at the stage now where anything
I say, anything I do, it's uncle. If I move his
head to the side, he'll shake it. If I say, oh,
that's a cool song. That's a shit song, mom.
You know? That's very healthy. That's very healthy.
That's a normal thing right there. 100%. I'm
doing something right. I will say, when you were
talking about, you know, kind of the calculated
risk and then later in life, the impact, right?
I think about both my brother and I are, well,
I snuck out to get my first tattoo. My brother
was 18, so he didn't have to sneak, but I was
underage getting mine. And I remember my parents
being like, hey, like you got the tattoo that's
a part of you now and you know that's a choice
you made you're gonna have to live with it but
they never tried to stop me and they didn't punish
me for it and I remember thinking I got away
with it right like like I got that tattoo and
I showed them but what's interesting is had they
really hammered me on that on the tattoo at that
I was 16 at that age and like had they really
hammered me down on the tattoo and really made
a big freaking deal about it I think that it
It wouldn't have been like it would have been
something that broke our trust at that age because
at that age it was so important to me. You know,
that one little and we're both covered now. So
it's interesting because it's a risk in some
ways. Right. And it's something that was my parents
obviously calculated the fact that if we go hard
on this thing that really doesn't matter in the
long run, it's going to affect. Their trust in
me, both of us, you know, their trust in me moving
forward. And I think that that's an example of,
you know, again, submarine parenting at its best,
meaning like they were not thrilled. But in the
long run, I think little moments like that allowed
us to build a deeper element of trust. It's funny
because obviously I'm. indian background and
my husband is as well and he got his ear pierced
when he was a teenager and his mom yeah his mom
was not impressed she actually threw some snooker
balls so obviously we live in asia i guess you
know the viewpoint in asian culture is a little
bit different you know like amanda says like
you obviously live in in an asian household yeah
when we've been brought up in a particular environment,
we kind of have this conflict, like this conflicting
idea. You know, sometimes I'm thinking, oh my
God, I really want to slap you because they're
getting on my nerves. That would be the Indian
in me coming out. But then me growing up in the
UK, I'm like, no, I can't do that. I need to
talk to them. Gentle parenting hat. So how do
you manage this then as a parent? I mean, that's
sort of outside of the whole, the boy issues
that we've been talking here. That's just a...
fundamentally challenging thing around multiculturalism.
And I guess maybe accepting that the fact that
you have those different elements to your background.
is a net positive, even though they come with
some struggles. I definitely think, I mean, we
see it, we send our kids to international schools
here where there's parents from all over the
world. And you see the differing attitudes to
various elements of parenting. We've just got
to work that out for ourselves. I think, you
know, it is a challenge if you've been raised
in one culture and now your kids are being raised
in a different one. I think that's certainly
a struggle I see. And when we've done these talks,
one of the frequent, we always see some new people
coming to see us on the back of it. And a frequent
one I see would be parents from various Asian
backgrounds going to a talk on boys, hearing
a man who's grown up in a Western culture and
a boy and coming, wanting advice around that
kind of thing. Because maybe they think that
I've got. different frame of reference on it
for them. But it's not that I'm right and they're
wrong or vice versa. It's just trying to find
a balance. If you could share one thing with
people listening today about how we can support
boys going forward, what do you think would be
sort of the biggest thing that you would like
to put out there? Well, I'm a big proponent of
giving individuals, not just boys, permission
to be. I love this idea, and I think it's probably
a bit far -fetched. I mean, you can't just be
whatever you want to be all the time in every
context. But this idea that making room for who
you are and the feelings that you carry, and
especially with boys, because we know from the
data that women are just as responsible for how
we're educating boys emotionally. Like we expect
so much from our men. Like if we look at the
stats, women still expect to be provided for.
Women still expect men to be stoic and have it
all together. So I see a lot of men in my practice
and they come to me and they tell me I can't
be vulnerable at home because that would freak
my wife out. So we need to take responsibility
for our own stereotypes. Like what stereotypes
are we carrying around us? And I'll put my hand
up that I had lots of stereotypes. I still do.
I'm sure some of them are not as conscious as
I'd like them to be. So really allowing boys
to express more vulnerable emotions. Pressuring
them, like my boys tell me all the time, enough
with the feelings. I'm fine, mommy. But I think
to make more room for that, make more room, permission
to be who they are, be it a little more impulsive
than we'd like to, a little more reactive, but
even a little more emotional. Because I think
we find it hard to see vulnerability in boys
and men. And so how do we make room for that?
That's a tough one, isn't it? How about yourself?
So my one thing not to go, I don't want to go
back over stuff we've already spoken about. So
a new one would be trying to bring a bit more
humor and positivity. So these are serious topics.
You should take them seriously. We have a tendency
to speak about them very seriously. And most
men do their best communicating amongst each
other by constantly. either being funny or trying
to be. And a lot of these influencers will use
that sort of almost silliness and humor to win
boys over. And we need to remember to sometimes
have a bit of a laugh and a joke with them as
well. I played golf with three other guys on
Wednesday last week and I got home and saw my
wife in the evening. She knows them. Any news?
Updates. Yeah. No, not really. Not a one. She's
like, how long were you playing for? I was like,
five hours. Any news? Nope. No? Don't think so.
We just kind of, I don't know, joked around.
Sort of took the mickey out of each other, whatever
it was. So I think those celebrating those forms
of communication is not just frivolous. They
actually have value and making it a bit more
joyful and fun sometimes. It's not always easy,
but yeah, that would be my one. I love that.
I'm going to remember that. My son does make,
well, the old one, he loves to make jokes. The
other day I was using Siri to send a message
to my helper to ask her to prepare something.
As I had just finished, she decided to say, bum,
bum, bum, bum, bum. So obviously when Siri's
repeating the message back to me, it was, oh,
please can you get the... pastor on bum bum bum
bum and they were all in hysterics and i think
you know i need to remember that that's important
it often falls on the mum to not be that person
right so we were on holiday over easter and on
the first morning uh my wife said the kids were
doing something annoying at breakfast and my
wife said guys i don't want to be the person
all holiday who's just saying no no no no no
and me and the kids just fell about laughing
because of course she will be yes so so it's
that's not but that's not her fault you know
i need to to be more of the bad cop as well yeah
um but yeah i think we remember need to remember
to laugh and have fun with them That's brilliant.
Well, thank you both so much for coming today.
I feel like this is such an important conversation
and it's given us so much food for thought. You
know, I feel in order to help raise boys so that
they are emotionally strong and connected, we
do need to listen to them, speak to them and
be there for them. So thank you so much. Thank
you very much. Thanks, guys. Thank you. All right.
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more empowering conversations with inspiring
guests. Bye. We have disallowed males from the
studio. And I'm not kidding. Literally, we've
done it on purpose. We've said no to so many
males. That's why you've got a problem with boys.
Yeah, exactly. What's the problem with boys?
Why do they feel alienated? Because they don't
get invited on podcasts. That is really cool.
And it's been something that's intentional. We
have not wanted to have men on the podcast because
we position ourselves as a women's health podcast
with female experts talking to women. But this
was important enough that we... Oh, thank you.
Yeah, so season five. Well, technically it'll
be season six, so 61 episodes later. Wow. Welcome.
Oh, this is an important one to have a man in.
Yeah? Yeah. For sure.