WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.700 Guys, we have some exciting news. The 40s Formula 00:00:02.700 --> 00:00:06.379 is going live on August 14th at the Green Collective 00:00:06.379 --> 00:00:08.640 at Funan Mall. We are going to dive deep into 00:00:08.640 --> 00:00:10.820 the science, myths, and struggles around sugar 00:00:10.820 --> 00:00:13.619 addiction. Breakfast and coffee are on us, thanks 00:00:13.619 --> 00:00:16.199 to the generous sponsors, Guzman y Gomez. It's 00:00:16.199 --> 00:00:18.620 a small and intimate event with only 15 spots, 00:00:18.699 --> 00:00:20.780 so it's first come, first served. Tickets are 00:00:20.780 --> 00:00:23.460 only 20 bucks, and that includes breakfast and 00:00:23.460 --> 00:00:25.940 $5 towards your purchase at the Green Collective. 00:00:26.059 --> 00:00:27.719 Come and join us for a conversation that might 00:00:27.719 --> 00:00:30.789 change the way you eat. Think and fail. Boys 00:00:30.789 --> 00:00:33.229 are falling behind. They're falling behind academically. 00:00:33.689 --> 00:00:36.630 They're falling behind emotionally. We have a 00:00:36.630 --> 00:00:39.509 mental health crisis in men. We have one in boys 00:00:39.509 --> 00:00:42.689 too. We know that suicide kills more men under 00:00:42.689 --> 00:00:46.070 50 than anything else. The boy issue was invisible 00:00:46.070 --> 00:00:49.170 to me until I became a boy mom. A better world 00:00:49.170 --> 00:00:51.049 for boys and men is a better world for girls 00:00:51.049 --> 00:00:53.929 and women too. Social media and the internet 00:00:53.929 --> 00:00:56.329 has just accelerated the process. This generation 00:00:56.329 --> 00:01:01.340 of parents struggles. to let go and lose control. 00:01:01.560 --> 00:01:04.379 How can we help them do riskier things? Boys 00:01:04.379 --> 00:01:08.040 do struggle with impulse control, with their 00:01:08.040 --> 00:01:10.299 ability to regulate their emotions. They're about 00:01:10.299 --> 00:01:13.280 18 months behind girls, usually. I think traditionally 00:01:13.280 --> 00:01:16.840 schools have prized typically female traits, 00:01:16.939 --> 00:01:19.540 haven't they? Yes, you're right. 92 % of prisons 00:01:19.540 --> 00:01:23.659 are filled with men. Men and boys were taught 00:01:23.659 --> 00:01:27.530 to validate our worth through achievements. The 00:01:27.530 --> 00:01:31.609 negative impact could be that boys or men feel 00:01:31.609 --> 00:01:51.319 more worthless. and welcome to The 40s Formula, 00:01:51.560 --> 00:01:53.719 your go -to place for insightful discussions 00:01:53.719 --> 00:01:56.400 on navigating the 40s and thriving in this transformative 00:01:56.400 --> 00:01:59.540 decade. We're your hosts, Jasmine and Amanda, 00:01:59.739 --> 00:02:02.060 two women that are passionate about exploring 00:02:02.060 --> 00:02:04.180 the challenges and adventures that come with 00:02:04.180 --> 00:02:15.419 turning 40 and what lies ahead. All right, before 00:02:15.419 --> 00:02:17.819 we dive into today's episode, let's talk about 00:02:17.819 --> 00:02:20.219 something that makes our lives way easier. And 00:02:20.219 --> 00:02:22.539 tastier, because let's be honest, between work, 00:02:22.620 --> 00:02:24.560 workouts, and you know, life, we don't exactly 00:02:24.560 --> 00:02:26.659 have time to wrestle the trolleys at the supermarket. 00:02:26.939 --> 00:02:29.120 Which is why we've been with The Meat Club since 00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:31.819 the beginning of the 40s formula. Yep, they've 00:02:31.819 --> 00:02:34.360 had our backs since episode one, and tasty dinners 00:02:34.360 --> 00:02:37.030 on our plates too. With The Meat Club? 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But what about salmon? 00:03:09.650 --> 00:03:11.930 Because that's definitely our favorite. Okay, 00:03:11.969 --> 00:03:14.770 fair enough. But chicken breast, that's the workhorse 00:03:14.770 --> 00:03:17.270 we're eating every single day. Uh -uh -uh. I 00:03:17.270 --> 00:03:19.409 think it's all about the chicken thighs. Oh my 00:03:19.409 --> 00:03:21.289 gosh, chicken thighs. I don't know if I could 00:03:21.289 --> 00:03:23.990 get one down myself, but I do know that this 00:03:23.990 --> 00:03:26.110 mince makes a mean burger. Who wants burgers 00:03:26.110 --> 00:03:28.909 when you can have a grass -fed beef eye fillet 00:03:28.909 --> 00:03:31.689 steak? Okay, that is amazing. But with that steak, 00:03:31.789 --> 00:03:33.629 I would definitely be serving this delicious 00:03:33.629 --> 00:03:36.689 broccoli and spicing it up with these chilies. 00:03:37.069 --> 00:03:40.669 Okay, you've definitely won there. 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Sign up for 00:04:10.539 --> 00:04:12.819 the flexible subscription, no lock -ins, just 00:04:12.819 --> 00:04:15.300 high quality proteins delivered straight to you. 00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:18.480 And don't forget to use our code TFF12 to save 00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:20.959 $12 off your first order. We'll drop it in the 00:04:20.959 --> 00:04:22.740 show notes or you can find it on our Instagram. 00:04:23.079 --> 00:04:25.459 The Meat Club, where quality meets convenience. 00:04:26.199 --> 00:04:28.139 Today we're turning the spotlight into a conversation 00:04:28.139 --> 00:04:30.019 that has been making waves since the Netflix 00:04:30.019 --> 00:04:32.920 drama Adolescence and that is what does it mean 00:04:32.920 --> 00:04:35.980 to be a boy and eventually a man in today's world? 00:04:36.519 --> 00:04:39.000 Are we really listening to our boys or are we 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:41.199 still telling them to man up and just get on 00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:43.579 with it? And as a mum of three boys myself I 00:04:43.579 --> 00:04:45.699 feel this conversation is especially close to 00:04:45.699 --> 00:04:48.560 home because like so many parents I want to understand 00:04:48.560 --> 00:04:51.079 the pressures they are facing and what we can 00:04:51.079 --> 00:04:54.379 do to support them to grow into healthy competent, 00:04:54.519 --> 00:04:57.779 connected, and emotionally strong men. So with 00:04:57.779 --> 00:05:00.680 us today, we've got two brilliant minds. We have 00:05:00.680 --> 00:05:05.040 Dr. Neil Forrest, a GP at Osler Health, who is 00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:07.220 a preferred doctor for adolescence health. And 00:05:07.220 --> 00:05:10.779 we also have Dr. Emma Waddington, a psychotherapist 00:05:10.779 --> 00:05:13.259 and the co -founder of Us Therapy. And today 00:05:13.259 --> 00:05:16.180 we're going to be unpacking identity, emotion, 00:05:16.639 --> 00:05:19.240 influence, and everything in between. And this 00:05:19.240 --> 00:05:21.459 is one of those episodes that I feel every parent 00:05:21.819 --> 00:05:23.899 every teacher and every teen will need to listen 00:05:23.899 --> 00:05:27.759 to. So welcome, welcome to the 40s Formula. Before 00:05:27.759 --> 00:05:29.980 we get going, I feel like the first question 00:05:29.980 --> 00:05:32.319 I want to ask is why do we need to have this 00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:36.220 conversation today? Why? Gosh, so many reasons 00:05:36.220 --> 00:05:41.139 really. Neil and I have been on a... What would 00:05:41.139 --> 00:05:44.300 we call it? On a run, we've had now conversations 00:05:44.300 --> 00:05:48.259 with, I think it's six or seven schools, on boys, 00:05:48.319 --> 00:05:50.000 really, because we need to be thinking about 00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:52.519 our boys. Boys are falling behind. They're falling 00:05:52.519 --> 00:05:55.439 behind academically. They're falling behind emotionally. 00:05:56.220 --> 00:05:58.899 We have a mental health crisis in men. We have 00:05:58.899 --> 00:06:02.279 one in boys too. We know that suicide kills more 00:06:02.279 --> 00:06:06.220 men under 50 than anything else. So we need to 00:06:06.220 --> 00:06:07.939 be having these conversations because we're doing 00:06:07.939 --> 00:06:10.079 something wrong. And I think the conversation 00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:14.319 needs to be had by mothers. And really, if I'm 00:06:14.319 --> 00:06:18.500 honest, I talk about this a lot. The boy issue 00:06:18.500 --> 00:06:21.240 was invisible to me until I became a boy mom. 00:06:21.459 --> 00:06:24.019 Up until then, I thought, you know, girls had 00:06:24.019 --> 00:06:26.279 it harder. And I'm not going to say that as women, 00:06:26.300 --> 00:06:28.160 we don't have a hard time because we do. And 00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:29.980 there's still a lot of work to do in that area. 00:06:30.259 --> 00:06:32.660 But I don't think that means we neglect the well 00:06:32.660 --> 00:06:36.100 -being of boys and men. And I'm quite passionate 00:06:36.100 --> 00:06:38.759 about this because I believe that a better world 00:06:38.759 --> 00:06:40.639 for boys and men is a better world for girls 00:06:40.639 --> 00:06:43.689 and women too. Like, why do we have to prioritize 00:06:43.689 --> 00:06:45.930 one over the other? There's no competition here. 00:06:46.009 --> 00:06:48.189 We don't have to make it into one. We need to 00:06:48.189 --> 00:06:50.889 think about all of us because it's an us -us 00:06:50.889 --> 00:06:53.069 problem, really. I think you're 100 % right. 00:06:53.230 --> 00:06:54.769 And just like you mentioned, I never thought 00:06:54.769 --> 00:06:56.730 of it as an issue. You know, I was always for 00:06:56.730 --> 00:06:58.689 like, oh, women need to do this and girls need 00:06:58.689 --> 00:07:01.050 to do this. And now I've got three boys myself 00:07:01.050 --> 00:07:03.769 and I'm thinking, what can I do to help them? 00:07:03.829 --> 00:07:05.810 Because you're right, they are struggling in 00:07:05.810 --> 00:07:09.430 so many areas. Dr. Neil, why do you think that 00:07:09.430 --> 00:07:12.699 this is an issue? I think it's... become an issue 00:07:12.699 --> 00:07:15.300 that we can talk about. I think it's been an 00:07:15.300 --> 00:07:18.540 issue for a long time, and I think maybe a lot 00:07:18.540 --> 00:07:22.560 of boys and men have felt that way, but it's 00:07:22.560 --> 00:07:25.939 not really been acceptable for a long time to 00:07:25.939 --> 00:07:29.899 talk about some of those challenges because the 00:07:29.899 --> 00:07:32.959 focus, as it rightly should be in society, is 00:07:32.959 --> 00:07:37.360 always on groups that are... marginalized or 00:07:37.360 --> 00:07:40.920 struggling and that's never really been men before 00:07:40.920 --> 00:07:45.920 um and i think even though you could see the 00:07:45.920 --> 00:07:48.439 the the roots of these problems taking hold at 00:07:48.439 --> 00:07:50.240 10 years ago if you tried to have this conversation 00:07:50.240 --> 00:07:53.500 people would say you're talking about you don't 00:07:53.500 --> 00:07:56.139 need to be worried about men and boys and i i 00:07:56.139 --> 00:07:58.819 think probably the other thing is like so many 00:07:58.819 --> 00:08:03.480 areas of mental health and well -being and and 00:08:03.480 --> 00:08:06.029 the things we see in our children social media 00:08:06.029 --> 00:08:08.509 and the internet has just accelerated the process. 00:08:08.709 --> 00:08:11.110 And maybe these things were building at a low 00:08:11.110 --> 00:08:15.050 level. Maybe with the equalization of opportunity 00:08:15.050 --> 00:08:18.350 over time between men and women, society would 00:08:18.350 --> 00:08:21.569 have adapted to that organically. But then the 00:08:21.569 --> 00:08:23.930 internet just dials everything up to 100 and 00:08:23.930 --> 00:08:26.670 turns on the accelerator. And so I think societal 00:08:26.670 --> 00:08:30.449 changes happen at such a rate now that people 00:08:30.449 --> 00:08:33.850 struggle, systems, schools, parents. teachers 00:08:33.850 --> 00:08:36.669 struggle to adapt quickly enough to what's happening. 00:08:36.870 --> 00:08:39.529 Even parents, you know, like I feel as parents, 00:08:39.710 --> 00:08:42.730 we don't know what's going on. You know, we know, 00:08:42.789 --> 00:08:45.190 we can see what's happening, but really deep 00:08:45.190 --> 00:08:47.529 down inside, it's really hard to see. I feel 00:08:47.529 --> 00:08:49.210 like they've got a new language. There's just 00:08:49.210 --> 00:08:51.129 so much stuff that we just can't keep up with. 00:08:51.370 --> 00:08:54.870 So what can parents do to try to help the boys 00:08:54.870 --> 00:08:58.230 in this situation? Not knowing exactly what our 00:08:58.230 --> 00:09:00.850 young people are doing all the time and finding 00:09:00.850 --> 00:09:03.559 their ways of communicating. a little bit alien, 00:09:03.679 --> 00:09:07.460 is nothing new, right? That's been going on for 00:09:07.460 --> 00:09:10.179 years. And if you'd sat our parents down, they'd 00:09:10.179 --> 00:09:12.700 probably say exactly the same. What's changed, 00:09:12.980 --> 00:09:15.240 I guess, you know, it's a difficult one, isn't 00:09:15.240 --> 00:09:18.240 it? I think our generation of parents, so I'm 00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:21.059 a bit older than you guys, I'm lumping myself 00:09:21.059 --> 00:09:23.159 in with you guys. That's all right. Come on in. 00:09:23.259 --> 00:09:28.039 This generation of parents struggles to let go 00:09:28.039 --> 00:09:31.559 and... lose control over situations and so there 00:09:31.559 --> 00:09:33.960 is a theory I don't know I think I think we've 00:09:33.960 --> 00:09:35.820 spoken about this haven't we Emma where we've 00:09:35.820 --> 00:09:39.039 focused so much on making the physical environment 00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:42.700 as safe and danger -free and we've been incredibly 00:09:42.700 --> 00:09:45.440 successful at doing that for our kids and we've 00:09:45.440 --> 00:09:48.740 kind of taken our eye off all the other risks 00:09:48.740 --> 00:09:51.019 they may be taking or things they might be doing 00:09:51.019 --> 00:09:54.039 I don't know I I'm one of three boys and I just 00:09:54.039 --> 00:09:57.889 feel like my parents and their generation, they 00:09:57.889 --> 00:10:01.730 seem more comfortable with letting us go a little 00:10:01.730 --> 00:10:05.350 bit. And I think we, in the modern world, struggle 00:10:05.350 --> 00:10:07.450 with that. I was saying to my husband, actually, 00:10:07.509 --> 00:10:10.340 that my son is a... going to turn 10 in a few 00:10:10.340 --> 00:10:12.559 months' time, that we should now probably let 00:10:12.559 --> 00:10:14.860 him get on a bus, maybe make a trip down to the 00:10:14.860 --> 00:10:17.379 shop. And I know I was doing that at a much younger 00:10:17.379 --> 00:10:19.960 age. And not in Singapore. No, not in Singapore. 00:10:19.960 --> 00:10:21.820 Where that is an absolutely safe thing to do 00:10:21.820 --> 00:10:25.379 across the board. One of the parents at the last 00:10:25.379 --> 00:10:27.440 talk we did, I think it was at the German school, 00:10:27.659 --> 00:10:32.419 one of the questions said... how can we help 00:10:32.419 --> 00:10:34.620 them take more risks? And most of the questions 00:10:34.620 --> 00:10:36.840 were around, how can we keep them safe? How can 00:10:36.840 --> 00:10:39.580 we stop them doing this? And this, it was a dad, 00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:42.879 wasn't it? Said, Singapore's too safe. How can 00:10:42.879 --> 00:10:45.620 we help them do riskier things? And I thought 00:10:45.620 --> 00:10:48.860 it was a good question. You know, it's always 00:10:48.860 --> 00:10:51.200 a balance, isn't it? You don't want them to be 00:10:51.200 --> 00:10:54.440 an unnecessary danger. But I think children in 00:10:54.440 --> 00:10:57.720 general, but boys in particular, thrive by... 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:00.240 pushing boundaries and taking risks sometimes. 00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:02.720 Yeah, I mean, this is something that is constantly 00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:05.120 at odds in my own home. So I live in a multi 00:11:05.120 --> 00:11:07.120 -generational home where my husband is Singaporean. 00:11:07.120 --> 00:11:09.120 We live with his parents and they're traditional 00:11:09.120 --> 00:11:14.059 Chinese Singaporean. And so our ability to handle 00:11:14.059 --> 00:11:16.799 risk is quite different because I'm American. 00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:18.659 I grew up in a traditional American home where, 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:21.120 to give you an idea of our parenting, my parents' 00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:23.039 parenting style, my dad always said, you know 00:11:23.039 --> 00:11:24.799 how they got helicopter parents? Right. That 00:11:24.799 --> 00:11:27.220 hover over the kids. He's like, we were submarine 00:11:27.220 --> 00:11:29.759 parents every now and then throw up the periscope. 00:11:29.759 --> 00:11:32.120 All good. Back under the surface. And that should 00:11:32.120 --> 00:11:34.179 tell you a bit about how I was raised, you know, 00:11:34.179 --> 00:11:37.139 quite, quite liberally. And so it's really it 00:11:37.139 --> 00:11:39.460 comes into play. My kids are very small. One, 00:11:39.580 --> 00:11:42.120 three and five are my kids ages. But particularly 00:11:42.120 --> 00:11:45.039 my middle boy, who's three. He's at the age now 00:11:45.039 --> 00:11:47.480 where he's jumping off everything, running into 00:11:47.480 --> 00:11:50.259 walls. The other day he smashed a glass bottle 00:11:50.259 --> 00:11:52.019 on the floor just to see what it would do. You 00:11:52.019 --> 00:11:53.480 know, not out of anger, just like, let's see 00:11:53.480 --> 00:11:55.259 what happens. Why is everyone so up in arms about 00:11:55.259 --> 00:11:58.960 glass? And it drives my parents -in -law crazy. 00:11:59.539 --> 00:12:02.059 And so what's been difficult for us, and I don't 00:12:02.059 --> 00:12:03.539 know if this is something you can give, you know, 00:12:03.539 --> 00:12:05.840 intercultural, multigenerational homes a little 00:12:05.840 --> 00:12:08.940 tip of the hat here, is how do you manage when 00:12:08.940 --> 00:12:12.470 the expectations of caregivers... are so different 00:12:12.470 --> 00:12:15.269 in the avoidance of risk or acceptance of risk 00:12:15.269 --> 00:12:18.669 around our boys. You see that even between partners, 00:12:19.389 --> 00:12:22.110 right? The classical experiments where they would 00:12:22.110 --> 00:12:25.309 let a parent watch a child climb a climbing frame. 00:12:25.389 --> 00:12:29.190 On average, a mom will stop them. Three or four 00:12:29.190 --> 00:12:32.370 runs lower than the dad will let them to go for. 00:12:32.529 --> 00:12:35.169 And of course, you see that across cultures as 00:12:35.169 --> 00:12:38.210 well. I think for you guys as parents and grandparents, 00:12:38.490 --> 00:12:41.500 it's probably about having very over... open 00:12:41.500 --> 00:12:44.419 conversations about what your expectations are 00:12:44.419 --> 00:12:48.000 and and and that that's just a gonna be a challenge 00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:50.059 in so many different ways but i think ultimately 00:12:50.059 --> 00:12:52.500 it's for you and your husband as the parents 00:12:52.500 --> 00:12:55.740 to make the calls together as to where the boundaries 00:12:55.740 --> 00:12:58.120 are and what's what's the right that there is 00:12:58.120 --> 00:13:00.879 no right way to do it there's no single way it'll 00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:02.720 be different for all three of your kids yeah 00:13:02.720 --> 00:13:05.500 um and i think i think one of the challenges 00:13:05.500 --> 00:13:08.590 with what we get asked emma does a great bit 00:13:08.590 --> 00:13:10.970 when we do these talks on neurodivergence and 00:13:10.970 --> 00:13:13.830 people really want to know about that okay how 00:13:13.830 --> 00:13:17.230 do i do this with a child who has adhd or how 00:13:17.230 --> 00:13:19.250 do i do this with a child who has autism and 00:13:19.250 --> 00:13:22.610 the problem is they're very broad terms on if 00:13:22.610 --> 00:13:25.549 you've met a kid with autism you've just met 00:13:25.549 --> 00:13:27.929 one kid with autism tell you what the next one's 00:13:27.929 --> 00:13:30.549 going to be like really so as parents and teachers 00:13:30.549 --> 00:13:33.490 we've really got to get to know them as individuals 00:13:33.490 --> 00:13:36.850 and work out what makes them tick. And I think 00:13:36.850 --> 00:13:40.330 what makes a lot of boys tick is different. And 00:13:40.330 --> 00:13:42.509 I think that's what we struggle with. And that's 00:13:42.509 --> 00:13:44.389 the complexity. And just coming back to your 00:13:44.389 --> 00:13:48.909 piece on risk -taking and boys and the fact that 00:13:48.909 --> 00:13:51.149 we've become more and more protective of children. 00:13:51.409 --> 00:13:53.169 And I think that is particularly striking in 00:13:53.169 --> 00:13:55.990 Singapore when it is so safe. I think boys more 00:13:55.990 --> 00:13:58.029 and more need to be getting out there, taking 00:13:58.029 --> 00:14:01.710 their own risks as safe as possible. And instead, 00:14:01.850 --> 00:14:04.629 we're keeping them indoors or doing tuition or 00:14:04.629 --> 00:14:06.750 doing all these things that actually, if we think 00:14:06.750 --> 00:14:10.120 of developmentally, boys do struggle. with impulse 00:14:10.120 --> 00:14:12.740 control, with their ability to regulate their 00:14:12.740 --> 00:14:15.360 emotions. They're about 18 months behind girls, 00:14:15.480 --> 00:14:17.879 usually. I did mention smashing a bottle on the 00:14:17.879 --> 00:14:20.200 floor, right? Yeah, exactly. But he's three. 00:14:21.279 --> 00:14:24.519 If he was doing this at 18, he might have another 00:14:24.519 --> 00:14:25.799 conversation. I mean, to be fair, it wouldn't 00:14:25.799 --> 00:14:29.299 surprise me. Actually, you know what? It's experimental. 00:14:30.340 --> 00:14:33.360 And isn't it wonderful? This is why I love... 00:14:33.769 --> 00:14:37.029 I mean, I've got two boys and I just love boys. 00:14:37.289 --> 00:14:39.590 Like they teach me so much about living really 00:14:39.590 --> 00:14:43.870 fully, sometimes too fully. And I'll have to 00:14:43.870 --> 00:14:46.669 sort of I use my my husband, I think, is also 00:14:46.669 --> 00:14:49.590 a bit on the sort of north of risk taking than 00:14:49.590 --> 00:14:53.169 I'd like him to be. So I have to adjust and I'll. 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:56.480 sort of um reflect to him you know this is their 00:14:56.480 --> 00:14:59.559 idea is it a good idea because my my knee jerk 00:14:59.559 --> 00:15:02.500 is no we're not doing this this is like really 00:15:02.500 --> 00:15:05.480 bad i'll ask him and then i'll kind of find a 00:15:05.480 --> 00:15:07.559 compromise between me and him because i think 00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:11.059 him he's too far out there personally but he'd 00:15:11.059 --> 00:15:13.559 probably argue otherwise um and he's one of three 00:15:13.559 --> 00:15:16.769 boys i'm one of three Three girls. So I think 00:15:16.769 --> 00:15:19.730 that also has an impact on our parenting. Like 00:15:19.730 --> 00:15:22.669 girls are generally more conservative. Our sort 00:15:22.669 --> 00:15:25.210 of prefrontal cortex that the front of our brain 00:15:25.210 --> 00:15:28.149 develops comes on air much quicker than boys. 00:15:28.269 --> 00:15:30.330 We're talking about those 18 months, but it can 00:15:30.330 --> 00:15:32.870 really vary. Some boys are behind that. Some 00:15:32.870 --> 00:15:35.730 boys are ahead of that. But it means that we 00:15:35.730 --> 00:15:38.370 sort of think things through a little faster. 00:15:38.850 --> 00:15:41.610 But that doesn't mean that the boy's decision 00:15:41.610 --> 00:15:44.639 making is wrong. And I think that's what we need 00:15:44.639 --> 00:15:48.139 to think as mothers and educators and in our 00:15:48.139 --> 00:15:50.200 community, that just because it looks like a 00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:53.419 bad idea doesn't make it a bad idea always. I 00:15:53.419 --> 00:15:58.919 think traditionally schools have prized... typically 00:15:58.919 --> 00:16:02.460 female traits. Yes, you're right. Being organized, 00:16:02.860 --> 00:16:06.039 listening, attention, sitting still. I mean, 00:16:06.039 --> 00:16:10.679 those are great things. If you put yourself in 00:16:10.679 --> 00:16:12.720 a teacher's shoes, that's what you want, right? 00:16:12.740 --> 00:16:16.080 That's what makes your life easier. Most primary 00:16:16.080 --> 00:16:19.340 school teachers are women. Yes, that's a problem. 00:16:19.340 --> 00:16:22.019 And so it's a difficult balance to strike because 00:16:22.019 --> 00:16:25.840 do we say that the boy that's disrupting the 00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:29.169 class or tearing the room apart? Carry on doing 00:16:29.169 --> 00:16:31.889 what you're doing. Sometimes it sounds like we're 00:16:31.889 --> 00:16:35.210 saying don't socialize your children. Don't teach 00:16:35.210 --> 00:16:38.769 them what normal behavior and interactions is 00:16:38.769 --> 00:16:40.809 about. And it's important for them to develop 00:16:40.809 --> 00:16:42.490 those things because if they can't get on with 00:16:42.490 --> 00:16:46.480 other kids and make people like them. and want 00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:48.799 to listen to them, then they're going to struggle 00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:52.419 in later life. So that it is a difficult balance. 00:16:52.659 --> 00:16:54.639 Sorry, Neil and I can have this conversation 00:16:54.639 --> 00:17:00.539 on our own. But I love that thought that actually 00:17:00.539 --> 00:17:04.279 what we're inviting children to do is be really 00:17:04.279 --> 00:17:07.140 smart at reading the context. Right. It's not 00:17:07.140 --> 00:17:09.279 a description of what is right or wrong, but 00:17:09.279 --> 00:17:11.339 it's more about what's right or wrong. in this 00:17:11.339 --> 00:17:14.000 moment like when i'm with grandma what should 00:17:14.000 --> 00:17:16.799 i be doing i'd probably be sort of more mindful 00:17:16.799 --> 00:17:19.680 about how i behave and obviously a three -year 00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:21.880 -old that's incredibly sophisticated but that 00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:24.839 is a life skill yeah asking people to regulate 00:17:24.839 --> 00:17:27.240 and know when to you know when is it okay to 00:17:27.240 --> 00:17:30.619 shout and when is it not okay is a really important 00:17:30.619 --> 00:17:33.319 interpersonal skill and i think that what we 00:17:33.319 --> 00:17:36.359 have done with boys is say you're just wrong. 00:17:36.559 --> 00:17:39.240 Your ideas are bad. You're not thinking straight. 00:17:39.559 --> 00:17:41.460 You need to sort yourself out. I mean, boys are 00:17:41.460 --> 00:17:43.259 much more likely to get expelled from school, 00:17:43.400 --> 00:17:46.220 to get labeled with a behavioral diagnosis than 00:17:46.220 --> 00:17:48.339 girls who are doing exactly the same things. 00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:50.740 So it's not just the boys are more likely to 00:17:50.740 --> 00:17:53.079 do it. But even when, you know, girls do it, 00:17:53.119 --> 00:17:55.579 they don't get the same consequences. Boys get 00:17:55.579 --> 00:17:58.019 more punished. And as we know, they're less likely 00:17:58.019 --> 00:18:03.119 to finish school, etc. Like 92 % of prisons are 00:18:03.119 --> 00:18:06.440 filled with. men that's probably a good reason 00:18:06.440 --> 00:18:08.599 for that but there's also something to be you 00:18:08.599 --> 00:18:12.579 know said about how we label boys and men's behavior 00:18:12.579 --> 00:18:15.900 as acceptable or unacceptable and how we start 00:18:15.900 --> 00:18:18.039 to become a bit broader and a bit more flexible 00:18:18.039 --> 00:18:21.660 and because you know 50 of the planet is male, 00:18:21.779 --> 00:18:24.500 50 % is female, we need to be able to accommodate 00:18:24.500 --> 00:18:27.140 a broader range of behavior across all contexts. 00:18:27.579 --> 00:18:30.279 And we need to begin with schools, or at least 00:18:30.279 --> 00:18:32.839 schools is an important one to address because 00:18:32.839 --> 00:18:34.920 that's where we're getting, you know, they're 00:18:34.920 --> 00:18:38.200 starting a journey that is a long journey. So 00:18:38.200 --> 00:18:42.440 what can schools do to help boys thrive? Because 00:18:42.440 --> 00:18:45.700 like you mentioned earlier, that the boys are 00:18:45.700 --> 00:18:49.710 falling behind. So what... What would work in 00:18:49.710 --> 00:18:53.569 a school environment to help them, I guess, not 00:18:53.569 --> 00:18:55.809 fall behind, you know, to get ahead? There's 00:18:55.809 --> 00:19:00.210 two sort of strands to that. You can help boys 00:19:00.210 --> 00:19:04.910 by teaching them what might be quote unquote 00:19:04.910 --> 00:19:08.970 terms as more female behaviours and ways of communicating. 00:19:08.970 --> 00:19:11.630 So you can give them the language to try and 00:19:11.630 --> 00:19:14.390 express their emotions and not suppress them 00:19:14.390 --> 00:19:17.920 or find other. ways to vent them so you can you 00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:21.339 can you can teach boys early uh about the the 00:19:21.339 --> 00:19:23.640 the words they can use to describe their emotions 00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:27.940 to that that talking about the way they feel 00:19:27.940 --> 00:19:30.119 can be helpful and then i think you can also 00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:32.599 accept that there are differences with a lot 00:19:32.599 --> 00:19:36.980 of boys and so giving them ways to to learn and 00:19:36.980 --> 00:19:39.920 express you know they tend to like doing things 00:19:39.920 --> 00:19:41.799 rather than thinking about things giving them 00:19:41.799 --> 00:19:45.220 more action -based things and maybe the way we 00:19:45.220 --> 00:19:48.099 validate them i think so the traditional view 00:19:48.099 --> 00:19:51.420 is that men and boys were taught to validate 00:19:51.420 --> 00:19:55.180 our worth through achievements what do we know 00:19:55.180 --> 00:19:57.480 what have we achieved what have we won how much 00:19:57.480 --> 00:20:00.220 do we earn what's our job how can we provide 00:20:00.220 --> 00:20:04.759 or protect and and and not just who we are and 00:20:04.759 --> 00:20:08.559 that people love us because we exist and They 00:20:08.559 --> 00:20:12.740 just love us for who we are. And so I think there's 00:20:12.740 --> 00:20:18.059 a little bit of maybe teaching boys to exist 00:20:18.059 --> 00:20:22.559 in a woman's world. And then there's also allowing 00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:27.279 them to still be boys. Did either of you guys 00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:30.299 go to single -sex schools? No, I went to a mixed 00:20:30.299 --> 00:20:33.079 school, but my husband is... one of three, like 00:20:33.079 --> 00:20:36.140 your husband and yourself, he went to a boys' 00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:37.900 school. Because we've had this conversation about 00:20:37.900 --> 00:20:40.180 when the boys get older, what would be better 00:20:40.180 --> 00:20:41.680 for them? Would it be better for them to go to 00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:44.680 a mixed school or a boys' school? And initially 00:20:44.680 --> 00:20:46.259 we decided in mixed school, and I think we were 00:20:46.259 --> 00:20:49.359 thinking it might be better for them not to feel 00:20:49.359 --> 00:20:53.039 like, you know, the females and sex is something, 00:20:53.059 --> 00:20:55.279 you know, that you can't talk to because it's 00:20:55.279 --> 00:20:57.400 like, oh my God, you know, there are girls there. 00:20:57.700 --> 00:21:00.420 But actually now I think if we switch it and 00:21:00.420 --> 00:21:01.980 we look at it from a different context, from 00:21:01.980 --> 00:21:06.660 a learning environment, maybe being in a environment 00:21:06.660 --> 00:21:09.660 where they're not going to be disturbed and they 00:21:09.660 --> 00:21:12.359 can be themselves might be a better thing. Did 00:21:12.359 --> 00:21:15.059 you go to a boys school? I and my two brothers 00:21:15.059 --> 00:21:17.319 went to an all boys school. And I wouldn't sort 00:21:17.319 --> 00:21:21.019 of particularly promote one over the other. But 00:21:21.019 --> 00:21:23.180 it's certainly true that I think in all boys 00:21:23.180 --> 00:21:26.460 schools, you get to sort of essentially be stupid 00:21:26.460 --> 00:21:29.619 idiots all together and make all your mistakes 00:21:29.619 --> 00:21:32.019 in an all male environment. And there are disadvantages, 00:21:32.319 --> 00:21:36.980 I'm sure. But there are some advantages to being 00:21:36.980 --> 00:21:39.819 in that. environment and just sort of through 00:21:39.819 --> 00:21:42.200 through certain developmental phases I think 00:21:42.200 --> 00:21:45.619 or there certainly were for for for me with regards 00:21:45.619 --> 00:21:48.240 to what Emma said about some girls being 18 months 00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:51.759 ahead in terms of emotional development if you 00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:53.779 take the oldest girl in a class and the youngest 00:21:53.779 --> 00:21:56.700 boy that could be a two and a half year difference 00:21:56.700 --> 00:21:59.039 in maturity and one of the things you notice 00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:02.259 in adolescence in the in the drama is that the 00:22:02.259 --> 00:22:06.569 boy and his friends look and sound very young 00:22:06.569 --> 00:22:09.130 and immature and the girls that they've been 00:22:09.130 --> 00:22:11.829 associating with look like and sound like young 00:22:11.829 --> 00:22:15.410 women yeah they've clearly done chosen that 13 00:22:15.410 --> 00:22:18.509 year old sort of age on purpose a lot of girls 00:22:18.509 --> 00:22:20.190 have well most girls would have been expected 00:22:20.190 --> 00:22:23.089 to hit puberty by that point yeah many boys wouldn't 00:22:23.089 --> 00:22:25.650 so there's there's striking physical differences 00:22:25.650 --> 00:22:28.269 i was reading actually that the the girls are 00:22:28.269 --> 00:22:30.589 entering puberty sooner and boys are entering 00:22:30.589 --> 00:22:33.049 it later like the gap is getting even greater 00:22:33.049 --> 00:22:36.109 oh and what's interesting what you said you know 00:22:36.109 --> 00:22:37.809 my husband did not go to an all -boys school 00:22:37.809 --> 00:22:40.579 but guess what he did do the army You know, he's 00:22:40.579 --> 00:22:42.539 Singaporean, so he did his mandatory army service. 00:22:42.819 --> 00:22:44.920 It's funny, right, that the army is two years, 00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:47.619 and there's this 18 -month developmental gap, 00:22:47.700 --> 00:22:50.019 and the army's happening just before kind of 00:22:50.019 --> 00:22:51.759 the completion of the prefrontal cortex development, 00:22:52.039 --> 00:22:53.599 right? And it's like all those things matter. 00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:56.299 And I honestly think, like so many, you guys, 00:22:56.319 --> 00:22:58.140 I'm the most patriotic Singaporean that's not 00:22:58.140 --> 00:23:00.440 Singaporean, but this is where I think Singapore 00:23:00.440 --> 00:23:02.099 and other countries that do this have it right, 00:23:02.220 --> 00:23:05.079 is that they basically take men out. at this, 00:23:05.099 --> 00:23:07.700 you know, very kind of volatile age, 18 to 20, 00:23:07.859 --> 00:23:11.019 right? And allow them to kind of catch up while 00:23:11.019 --> 00:23:13.799 experiencing the benefits of being in that all 00:23:13.799 --> 00:23:15.319 -male environment that you mentioned. I've had 00:23:15.319 --> 00:23:17.920 exactly the same thought. It's smart, but I don't 00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:19.380 think it's deliberate. I mean, I think they're 00:23:19.380 --> 00:23:22.380 doing it for defense. Deliberate for defense 00:23:22.380 --> 00:23:24.640 and then the social benefit happened. Yeah, and 00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:26.160 I think they're like, let's keep this, you know? 00:23:26.200 --> 00:23:28.299 Because then maybe you come out of national service 00:23:28.299 --> 00:23:31.529 and you're hitting college, university. at exactly 00:23:31.529 --> 00:23:33.910 the same maturity as the girls that are starting 00:23:33.910 --> 00:23:36.250 at 18, 18 and a half. And again, you know, college 00:23:36.250 --> 00:23:38.670 and uni, absolutely. And I think from a Singapore 00:23:38.670 --> 00:23:40.710 social development stance, you know, marriage 00:23:40.710 --> 00:23:42.930 and family, I think that, you know, that's where 00:23:42.930 --> 00:23:46.589 it's like now they're more ready for the potential, 00:23:46.730 --> 00:23:49.390 you know, being a partner in marriage that is 00:23:49.390 --> 00:23:51.109 more successful and, you know, all the incentives 00:23:51.109 --> 00:23:53.109 that Singapore offers to that side. And I think, 00:23:53.109 --> 00:23:55.150 again, the army kind of plays the role of the 00:23:55.150 --> 00:23:58.150 all boys school in this. I think it also, it 00:23:58.150 --> 00:24:02.440 probably plays a role in. um giving so obviously 00:24:02.440 --> 00:24:06.519 it's a focus it's very action based it's doing 00:24:06.519 --> 00:24:10.859 stuff and it's gives you value wherever you've 00:24:10.859 --> 00:24:13.079 come from whatever whatever you're going to do 00:24:13.079 --> 00:24:16.440 next you're all contributing to something that 00:24:16.440 --> 00:24:20.019 the nation values and it gives you a sense of 00:24:20.019 --> 00:24:24.140 of worth i think yeah I have to put a butt in, 00:24:24.160 --> 00:24:28.140 I'm afraid. The psychologist in me always has 00:24:28.140 --> 00:24:31.059 a depends. It's the most annoying characteristic 00:24:31.059 --> 00:24:34.180 of psychologists. But I guess for me, all boys 00:24:34.180 --> 00:24:37.480 school, national service, it depends the kind 00:24:37.480 --> 00:24:40.279 of boy that you have. I mean, there is a narrative 00:24:40.279 --> 00:24:42.819 that boys need to be strong. And they have to 00:24:42.819 --> 00:24:45.700 be physically strong, emotionally strong. And 00:24:45.700 --> 00:24:48.539 that narrative can be reinforced in men and boy 00:24:48.539 --> 00:24:52.099 communities. And so if you have a boy who isn't 00:24:52.099 --> 00:24:57.759 physically strong, who is emotionally more delicate, 00:24:58.160 --> 00:25:01.000 you know, that could be a really poor match. 00:25:01.740 --> 00:25:04.539 So I think like everything, it depends on the 00:25:04.539 --> 00:25:08.319 on the child. I've seen lots of boys really struggle 00:25:08.319 --> 00:25:12.180 in all boys schools and I've seen lots of victims 00:25:12.180 --> 00:25:15.480 of national service. So I think like everything, 00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:18.519 it depends on the needs of the individual. And 00:25:18.519 --> 00:25:20.740 I think some boys do really well around girls. 00:25:20.920 --> 00:25:24.140 I'm a big proponent of mixed co -ed versus single 00:25:24.140 --> 00:25:28.079 sex because I do think that we need to live together. 00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:31.660 And I think. perhaps it's a bit overambitious 00:25:31.660 --> 00:25:33.759 but I think we should just get better at adapting 00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:37.660 to differences just like we have the neurodivergence 00:25:37.660 --> 00:25:40.839 conversation and movement really this neuroaffirming 00:25:40.839 --> 00:25:44.259 I think gender affirming like it's so nice to 00:25:44.259 --> 00:25:46.680 finally talk about gender differences once upon 00:25:46.680 --> 00:25:50.630 a time we couldn't It was not allowed. So we're 00:25:50.630 --> 00:25:53.589 moving forward and thinking about, you know, 00:25:53.609 --> 00:25:55.529 how we're different and how we meet such different 00:25:55.529 --> 00:25:58.349 needs. And I think we can be more sophisticated 00:25:58.349 --> 00:26:02.089 and evolve, even though it's difficult. Earlier, 00:26:02.089 --> 00:26:06.170 Neil mentioned that the sort of the old notion 00:26:06.170 --> 00:26:09.569 of men and boys was like protect her and being 00:26:09.569 --> 00:26:13.819 strong. And now women are in a place and girls 00:26:13.819 --> 00:26:15.460 are in a place where they don't need someone 00:26:15.460 --> 00:26:17.680 to protect them. They don't need someone to provide 00:26:17.680 --> 00:26:21.099 for them. So with this sort of change in role, 00:26:21.259 --> 00:26:24.339 how is that affecting boys and I guess young 00:26:24.339 --> 00:26:28.420 men as well? The negative impact could be that 00:26:28.420 --> 00:26:34.759 boys or men feel more worthless or less useful 00:26:34.759 --> 00:26:37.980 when it's put in those terms. I think the way 00:26:37.980 --> 00:26:43.400 to... put a positive take on it would be so a 00:26:43.400 --> 00:26:46.779 lot of what psychologists do correct me if I'm 00:26:46.779 --> 00:26:49.740 wrong here but a lot of behavioral therapy is 00:26:49.740 --> 00:26:54.019 about reframing unproductive thoughts right so 00:26:54.019 --> 00:26:56.420 we think these things that we think are true 00:26:56.420 --> 00:26:59.519 and they don't help us and we reframe them and 00:26:59.519 --> 00:27:03.960 into something else and and so protecting and 00:27:03.960 --> 00:27:09.240 providing could be reframed into serving You 00:27:09.240 --> 00:27:12.440 can still you don't have to physically protect 00:27:12.440 --> 00:27:17.500 someone to to or financially provide for someone 00:27:17.500 --> 00:27:20.880 to still fulfill those roles of someone who sort 00:27:20.880 --> 00:27:24.200 of gets value from serving or helping other people. 00:27:24.240 --> 00:27:28.539 And so we just need to give boys and men a different 00:27:28.539 --> 00:27:31.779 way of expecting them not to have those traits, 00:27:31.900 --> 00:27:34.380 I think, is unrealistic. It's how do we channel 00:27:34.380 --> 00:27:37.529 those into something? positive because the flip 00:27:37.529 --> 00:27:39.930 side to what this boy in adolescence has gone 00:27:39.930 --> 00:27:43.230 down the the online rabbit hole of hearing is 00:27:43.230 --> 00:27:45.710 that if you don't do those things you're not 00:27:45.710 --> 00:27:48.869 a real man that women think they don't need protecting 00:27:48.869 --> 00:27:52.410 but really they do uh that men should be providing 00:27:52.410 --> 00:27:54.430 for women and women should be all these all these 00:27:54.430 --> 00:27:57.210 well -known sort of tropes that are that are 00:27:57.210 --> 00:28:01.539 being uh sold to young men now as the answer 00:28:01.539 --> 00:28:03.720 to the problems they might be facing. I think 00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:06.799 we need to reframe that into something more meaningful 00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:08.980 and positive for them. Amanda, can we talk about 00:28:08.980 --> 00:28:11.880 how clean Guzmany Gomez's food is? Like truly 00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:14.039 clean, not the it has letters so it's healthy 00:28:14.039 --> 00:28:16.660 kind of clean. Oh, totally. GYG is on another 00:28:16.660 --> 00:28:19.099 level. There's no preservatives, no artificial 00:28:19.099 --> 00:28:21.559 colors, no weird additives. It is just proper, 00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:25.059 real food. I read that they went through 21 versions 00:28:25.059 --> 00:28:27.180 of their corn chips before they found the one. 00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:29.660 Now that's commitment. And they fly in their 00:28:29.660 --> 00:28:32.339 avocados and tomatoes daily from Australia to 00:28:32.339 --> 00:28:34.660 Singapore. That is the level of commitment I 00:28:34.660 --> 00:28:36.960 want in my food. You can taste it, whether it's 00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:39.480 the burritos, the bowls, or those chipotle -seasoned 00:28:39.480 --> 00:28:42.180 fries. You just feel good after eating it. And 00:28:42.180 --> 00:28:43.920 it's really why my entire family keeps going 00:28:43.920 --> 00:28:47.079 back. Clean is the new healthy, and GYG has been 00:28:47.079 --> 00:28:49.539 leading that charge since day one. They've literally 00:28:49.539 --> 00:28:53.099 reinvented fast food. Who says it has to be dodgy 00:28:53.099 --> 00:28:55.859 and deep -fried? Not on GYG's watch. Can I ask 00:28:55.859 --> 00:28:57.579 you, though, are these well -known tropes now? 00:28:57.700 --> 00:28:59.720 I feel like I was introduced to the tropes by 00:28:59.720 --> 00:29:02.059 watching adolescence. They were not well -known 00:29:02.059 --> 00:29:05.099 to me, all this 80 -20 rule and, you know, this 00:29:05.099 --> 00:29:07.859 kind of like, you know, hyper -masculine underground. 00:29:08.859 --> 00:29:13.019 Yeah, this is all new to me. So is this, am I 00:29:13.019 --> 00:29:15.380 just obviously behind the times? Yeah, I mean, 00:29:15.420 --> 00:29:18.579 these guys have been around for quite a long 00:29:18.579 --> 00:29:22.440 time now. They've always been around. Yeah. I 00:29:22.440 --> 00:29:24.119 mean, to a certain extent, just not on social 00:29:24.119 --> 00:29:25.960 media. Yeah. And I mean, you know, Andrew Tate 00:29:25.960 --> 00:29:27.180 obviously being the, you know, the headliner 00:29:27.180 --> 00:29:31.440 there, but like what ages are the most kind of 00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:36.190 susceptible to this online presence? All ages 00:29:36.190 --> 00:29:38.490 can be vulnerable to it, but I think the developing 00:29:38.490 --> 00:29:41.950 brain is far more suggestive and susceptible 00:29:41.950 --> 00:29:46.569 to any kind of misinformation or whatever you 00:29:46.569 --> 00:29:49.430 want to call it. So, you know, I think if you 00:29:49.430 --> 00:29:51.710 look at someone like the rise of Jordan Peterson, 00:29:51.869 --> 00:29:55.250 say, look at the demographics that attend his 00:29:55.250 --> 00:29:57.329 events, it would be men of all ages, certainly 00:29:57.329 --> 00:30:00.390 not exclusively young men, but it seemed to have 00:30:00.390 --> 00:30:04.079 particular resonance. in, I would say, that late 00:30:04.079 --> 00:30:07.759 adolescent sort of age bracket. Even young, though. 00:30:07.839 --> 00:30:10.319 I was looking at some stats that are really quite 00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:14.279 striking that this kind of manosphere or this 00:30:14.279 --> 00:30:20.140 radical masculinity content is being pushed, 00:30:20.220 --> 00:30:23.519 unfortunately, by algorithms. And about 69%, 00:30:23.519 --> 00:30:26.880 I was reading, of 11 to 15 -year -olds have had 00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:30.400 exposure to this content. Wow. And only about... 00:30:30.589 --> 00:30:35.130 sort of 50 to 60, no, sorry, 50 to 60 % of which 00:30:35.130 --> 00:30:37.829 hadn't searched for it. So it's being pushed 00:30:37.829 --> 00:30:39.849 even though they don't look for it. And obviously 00:30:39.849 --> 00:30:43.069 it's really provocative. And sort of coming back 00:30:43.069 --> 00:30:46.289 to your point, you know, some of these dilemmas 00:30:46.289 --> 00:30:48.490 that our boys face. And I think it's genuine 00:30:48.490 --> 00:30:50.930 that, you know, it was really black and white 00:30:50.930 --> 00:30:52.869 what men needed to do. They needed to provide. 00:30:52.970 --> 00:30:55.690 They needed to be strong. I don't think everybody 00:30:55.690 --> 00:30:58.549 met that criteria once upon a time. But now it's 00:30:58.549 --> 00:31:02.220 more complicated because actually. Since the 00:31:02.220 --> 00:31:05.099 Me Too movement, I think there's been a shift 00:31:05.099 --> 00:31:08.799 where boys are getting really mixed messages. 00:31:09.039 --> 00:31:11.059 On the one hand, they're being told they need 00:31:11.059 --> 00:31:13.519 to be really strong and need to provide. On the 00:31:13.519 --> 00:31:15.759 other hand, they can see women are getting more 00:31:15.759 --> 00:31:18.220 and more successful, although not yet as successful 00:31:18.220 --> 00:31:22.000 as men. I think some of this manosphere content 00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:25.000 confuses the data. We're still far from where 00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:29.579 we need to be in terms of women. But we are no 00:31:29.579 --> 00:31:32.440 longer... you know, sitting in the kitchen. So, 00:31:32.539 --> 00:31:37.099 as often. I'm going to be cooking dinner. Yes, 00:31:37.099 --> 00:31:40.680 exactly. The manosphere content is not designed 00:31:40.680 --> 00:31:44.220 to appeal to men who are already successful in 00:31:44.220 --> 00:31:46.019 a happy relationship. No, no, no. Absolutely. 00:31:46.559 --> 00:31:48.839 It's targeting men who do feel left behind. Who 00:31:48.839 --> 00:31:52.099 are lost and confused, ostracized. I mean, if 00:31:52.099 --> 00:31:53.940 you look at the vulnerability factors, it's, 00:31:53.940 --> 00:31:56.839 you know, it's often young men. who have been 00:31:56.839 --> 00:32:00.859 bullied, who are failing in relationships, who 00:32:00.859 --> 00:32:04.059 are not getting girlfriends. The neurodivergent 00:32:04.059 --> 00:32:06.940 community is very vulnerable to this. So it's 00:32:06.940 --> 00:32:10.000 not the successful men. It's the men that are... 00:32:10.299 --> 00:32:12.579 you know, falling behind. So that's why we need 00:32:12.579 --> 00:32:14.640 to think about them because they get fed this 00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:17.819 message that they need to be strong and aggressive 00:32:17.819 --> 00:32:23.900 and reject the feminist narrative because that's 00:32:23.900 --> 00:32:26.140 the problem. These types of online ideologies, 00:32:26.259 --> 00:32:27.960 now it's not just the manosphere, that can happen 00:32:27.960 --> 00:32:30.400 with, say, religious radicalization. It could 00:32:30.400 --> 00:32:33.380 be anything. It's like a kind of grooming. That's 00:32:33.380 --> 00:32:36.000 how I see it. And not all the content creators 00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:38.920 are male. There's an increasing number, particularly 00:32:38.920 --> 00:32:42.980 in the US, of female influencers who buy into 00:32:42.980 --> 00:32:48.019 this idea. And just, you know, that adds sort 00:32:48.019 --> 00:32:51.099 of fuel. Yeah, I should be at home. You know, 00:32:51.119 --> 00:32:55.019 a man should be this. I mean, there's always 00:32:55.019 --> 00:32:58.140 been that. Yeah. That narrative, right? There's 00:32:58.140 --> 00:32:59.440 certain women who find that really important. 00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:02.079 In older generations online now, you've got the 00:33:02.079 --> 00:33:03.980 sort of the trad wife. Oh, you mean like somebody 00:33:03.980 --> 00:33:06.710 who wants to find a rich guy and not... Yeah, 00:33:06.809 --> 00:33:09.430 or just going back to very traditional values. 00:33:09.690 --> 00:33:12.369 Some of it's rooted in religion. Some of it's 00:33:12.369 --> 00:33:15.509 rooted in just a yearning to go back to the way 00:33:15.509 --> 00:33:19.930 things were. A lot of teenagers, not just boys, 00:33:20.029 --> 00:33:22.789 but I think particularly boys, spend an inordinate 00:33:22.789 --> 00:33:25.369 amount of time thinking about the opposite sex, 00:33:25.430 --> 00:33:28.390 being attracted to girls, wanting to get a girlfriend, 00:33:28.809 --> 00:33:31.750 wanting to experiment and all the rest of it. 00:33:31.809 --> 00:33:34.910 And the reality is you spend a lot of the time 00:33:35.759 --> 00:33:38.859 wanting a girlfriend or or or being attracted 00:33:38.859 --> 00:33:41.240 to some girl in your class or whatever and not 00:33:41.240 --> 00:33:43.579 sort of having any success there and so what 00:33:43.579 --> 00:33:47.359 this offers is a way out of that situation not 00:33:47.359 --> 00:33:50.019 just it's normal it happens not every girl's 00:33:50.019 --> 00:33:51.660 going to fall in love with you don't worry about 00:33:51.660 --> 00:33:55.740 it you'll meet someone it's uh well if you can't 00:33:55.740 --> 00:33:58.940 find a girl just go to the gym and start lifting 00:33:58.940 --> 00:34:01.779 weights and get huge and be on steroids. Yeah, 00:34:01.779 --> 00:34:04.940 make yourself an alpha. Yeah, exactly. And actually, 00:34:05.059 --> 00:34:08.880 we don't need women. Instead of just these are 00:34:08.880 --> 00:34:12.360 the normal ebbs and flows of adolescence and, 00:34:12.420 --> 00:34:14.840 you know, most people will work it out for themselves 00:34:14.840 --> 00:34:17.420 sooner or later if they're left alone. And you 00:34:17.420 --> 00:34:20.119 know what's the heartbreaking, like what adolescence 00:34:20.119 --> 00:34:21.980 really displays in what you just said, right? 00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:23.639 Which is, you know, go to the gym, make yourself 00:34:23.639 --> 00:34:27.079 start. So the obvious and unfortunate kind of 00:34:27.079 --> 00:34:30.739 peak of that manosphere is, you know, he obviously 00:34:30.739 --> 00:34:33.619 kills the girl, right? So that's the extreme 00:34:33.619 --> 00:34:35.500 act of violence, right? Where it's like, wow, 00:34:35.619 --> 00:34:38.159 that really reached a pinnacle. But what really 00:34:38.159 --> 00:34:40.119 got me in the series, the exact moment where 00:34:40.119 --> 00:34:43.440 I lost it, was when the therapist is about to 00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:45.599 leave, you know, the sessions are over and, you 00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:47.849 know, he's off to prison. And he said, do you 00:34:47.849 --> 00:34:51.469 like me? Do you like me? And it was just heartbreaking 00:34:51.469 --> 00:34:55.150 that like the whole thing, if you take away the 00:34:55.150 --> 00:34:56.949 acts of violence and the woman hating and the 00:34:56.949 --> 00:34:59.650 be the alpha male and stuff, it exposes this 00:34:59.650 --> 00:35:03.550 deep vulnerability of just wanting any attention 00:35:03.550 --> 00:35:07.269 from the opposite sex, any validation. And that 00:35:07.269 --> 00:35:11.050 part was that really got me. I think what most 00:35:11.050 --> 00:35:15.829 young men would benefit from is. one or more 00:35:15.829 --> 00:35:19.489 influential male figures, inspirational male 00:35:19.489 --> 00:35:21.989 figures in their life, whether that's their dad 00:35:21.989 --> 00:35:25.429 or a teacher or a coach or whatever. And in this 00:35:25.429 --> 00:35:28.010 series, so the dad struggled, right? I think 00:35:28.010 --> 00:35:29.570 he was a plumber or an electrician, plumber, 00:35:29.630 --> 00:35:33.210 full -time, busy, didn't have time, struggled. 00:35:33.409 --> 00:35:37.210 He'd taken the boy to football and boxing. He 00:35:37.210 --> 00:35:39.469 hadn't liked those things. Those were his ways 00:35:39.469 --> 00:35:42.090 of... trying to do something together, it hadn't 00:35:42.090 --> 00:35:45.150 worked out. The male police officer, his relationship 00:35:45.150 --> 00:35:49.309 with his son was, you know, he was busy, didn't 00:35:49.309 --> 00:35:51.489 really know how to communicate with him. The 00:35:51.489 --> 00:35:53.250 teachers were struggling, so there was this theme 00:35:53.250 --> 00:35:55.869 that the boys didn't have anyone to turn to, 00:35:55.989 --> 00:35:58.829 so the person they turned to was available 24 00:35:58.829 --> 00:36:03.760 -7 on their phone or their... screen in their 00:36:03.760 --> 00:36:06.239 bedroom and just being funneled in there and 00:36:06.239 --> 00:36:10.199 so I think if if we don't act as those inspirations 00:36:10.199 --> 00:36:13.880 then social media will take care of it for us 00:36:13.880 --> 00:36:17.219 and we might not like the inspirational adults 00:36:17.219 --> 00:36:20.599 we get served up by social media so I'm just 00:36:20.599 --> 00:36:23.639 wondering so obviously role model is is a big 00:36:23.639 --> 00:36:26.659 thing um for boys even for girls but for boys 00:36:26.659 --> 00:36:28.619 in particular but let's say it is the father 00:36:29.019 --> 00:36:30.900 You know, and the father still has, like, the 00:36:30.900 --> 00:36:33.199 dad in adolescence, these different types of 00:36:33.199 --> 00:36:35.380 ideologies. Like, to be a man, you need to be 00:36:35.380 --> 00:36:38.699 sporty, you need to be tough, you need to do 00:36:38.699 --> 00:36:41.059 all of these things. So when there's a mismatch 00:36:41.059 --> 00:36:45.519 there, then how do you help develop that boy 00:36:45.519 --> 00:36:50.960 into a, I guess, a healthy young man? My very 00:36:50.960 --> 00:36:53.480 fundamental solution in a boy that's the age 00:36:53.480 --> 00:36:57.289 he is in adolescence is, if I could, I'd... protect 00:36:57.289 --> 00:37:00.409 them completely from that influence. I wouldn't 00:37:00.409 --> 00:37:02.230 have phones. They wouldn't have access to social 00:37:02.230 --> 00:37:05.739 media. I think it's utterly... toxic thing in 00:37:05.739 --> 00:37:08.639 their lives it's creeping in there was a great 00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:11.159 article in the times this weekend about how it's 00:37:11.159 --> 00:37:13.920 creeping into education so all these e -learning 00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:16.119 companies that like our children love to learn 00:37:16.119 --> 00:37:18.519 from apps do you use to get you know my kids 00:37:18.519 --> 00:37:22.860 both got ipads in school now they learn increasingly 00:37:22.860 --> 00:37:27.920 through gamified type interfaces it's just a 00:37:27.920 --> 00:37:32.309 way of getting us all on board with this stuff 00:37:32.309 --> 00:37:34.030 ruling our lives. So that would be the first 00:37:34.030 --> 00:37:37.530 thing. I would take the possibility of Andrew 00:37:37.530 --> 00:37:40.170 Tate being able to communicate with my son in 00:37:40.170 --> 00:37:43.570 any way off the table. Then you're left with, 00:37:43.670 --> 00:37:45.889 okay, there have always been bad influences, 00:37:46.090 --> 00:37:49.190 right? You know, people thought that the Beatles 00:37:49.190 --> 00:37:52.849 were corrupting kids in the 60s, right? You know, 00:37:52.869 --> 00:37:55.309 there's always been that. Kids don't want to 00:37:55.309 --> 00:37:57.070 listen to their parents. They want to follow 00:37:57.070 --> 00:37:59.989 the cool person on TV or whatever. But I think... 00:38:00.670 --> 00:38:03.130 if they don't have 24 -hour access to it if it's 00:38:03.130 --> 00:38:05.030 not hyper personalized to them by an algorithm 00:38:05.030 --> 00:38:09.929 as parents and as teachers it's a bit easier 00:38:09.929 --> 00:38:13.110 for us to to have our influence in that yeah 00:38:13.110 --> 00:38:15.429 and i think this idea that it takes a village 00:38:15.429 --> 00:38:18.269 i think what's happening is that we're becoming 00:38:18.269 --> 00:38:21.510 more and more insular and actually it's so common 00:38:21.510 --> 00:38:23.570 that there is a mismatch between parents and 00:38:23.570 --> 00:38:26.289 children and i think when i think about you know 00:38:26.289 --> 00:38:29.619 myself or people that I've worked with or communities 00:38:29.619 --> 00:38:32.239 that I've supported over the years. I mean, it 00:38:32.239 --> 00:38:34.079 goes through ebbs and flows with our children. 00:38:34.219 --> 00:38:36.840 We might go through a period where we're connecting 00:38:36.840 --> 00:38:39.219 really well, then we disconnect, then we reconnect. 00:38:39.320 --> 00:38:41.880 It's like any relationship. And so that's why 00:38:41.880 --> 00:38:45.719 you want to extend the community. You want especially 00:38:45.719 --> 00:38:48.880 boys who are hitting these ages from sort of 00:38:48.880 --> 00:38:50.559 middle school. Middle school is a super complicated 00:38:50.559 --> 00:38:53.599 time for both boys and girls. But developmentally, 00:38:53.599 --> 00:38:57.710 it's when... Boys are really starting to get 00:38:57.710 --> 00:39:00.409 more feelings. They don't have the language because 00:39:00.409 --> 00:39:03.570 we just don't talk like that with boys enough. 00:39:03.809 --> 00:39:07.650 But if they had different people in their lives, 00:39:07.650 --> 00:39:10.159 different role models, be it... You know, either 00:39:10.159 --> 00:39:14.280 their sports coach or it could be an aunt, a 00:39:14.280 --> 00:39:16.699 cousin. It could be someone's, you know, husband, 00:39:16.920 --> 00:39:19.340 a friend, you know, different influences. They 00:39:19.340 --> 00:39:22.019 can see different ways of being a man. I love 00:39:22.019 --> 00:39:24.320 the idea of men's group and boys groups. You 00:39:24.320 --> 00:39:27.869 know, we used to have a lot of scouts. I don't 00:39:27.869 --> 00:39:29.190 know what's happened to them. They don't happen 00:39:29.190 --> 00:39:32.309 so often. But I think it's with the right influences 00:39:32.309 --> 00:39:34.449 and the right sort of language, I think it's 00:39:34.449 --> 00:39:38.010 a great thing to have more people involved in 00:39:38.010 --> 00:39:40.269 our parenting journey because it's not always 00:39:40.269 --> 00:39:42.969 the right person. And especially through adolescence 00:39:42.969 --> 00:39:46.530 where parents sort of drop down the hierarchy 00:39:46.530 --> 00:39:49.969 and get lower and lower and lower. That's why 00:39:49.969 --> 00:39:52.860 you need other people to be. higher up on the 00:39:52.860 --> 00:39:55.460 hierarchy. You know, peers are always the priority, 00:39:55.679 --> 00:40:00.480 but it could be your fun aunt or uncle or that 00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:02.539 you can call and say, oh, you know, dad's been 00:40:02.539 --> 00:40:06.739 a real jerk. You know, and you can commiserate. 00:40:06.739 --> 00:40:09.719 And I think that we need to give permission for 00:40:09.719 --> 00:40:12.659 that because that's just normal. It really is. 00:40:12.800 --> 00:40:15.139 And so then they don't. have to do it online. 00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:18.159 The reason they turn to some of these community 00:40:18.159 --> 00:40:20.760 online is because they give these recipes. They 00:40:20.760 --> 00:40:23.519 give answers. This is what you need to do. Come 00:40:23.519 --> 00:40:26.579 join us. You know, it's true. Life is, you know, 00:40:26.579 --> 00:40:29.440 awful. You know, men are struggling, etc. You 00:40:29.440 --> 00:40:32.380 know, there's really concrete answers to their 00:40:32.380 --> 00:40:34.760 problems and they find their tribe, a sense of 00:40:34.760 --> 00:40:37.119 belonging, just like they join gangs. You know, 00:40:37.159 --> 00:40:39.480 my sister works with knife crime in London and 00:40:39.480 --> 00:40:41.059 that's what's happening in London, but they're 00:40:41.059 --> 00:40:45.300 joining gangs. incredibly dangerous as that is. 00:40:46.019 --> 00:40:48.440 But who are the risk, the children that are at 00:40:48.440 --> 00:40:51.139 risk to join gangs? I think it's very similar 00:40:51.139 --> 00:40:53.539 to the children that are at risk to listen to 00:40:53.539 --> 00:40:55.840 these online platforms. If you're connecting, 00:40:56.019 --> 00:40:58.199 chatting to your child, if your child feels safe 00:40:58.199 --> 00:41:00.019 to raise things that they're uncomfortable about 00:41:00.019 --> 00:41:02.420 with you or with someone in their community, 00:41:02.679 --> 00:41:05.000 they're less likely to get influenced and sort 00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:07.139 of, I'd like to think of it as grooming, into 00:41:07.139 --> 00:41:10.239 those communities and those narratives. What 00:41:10.239 --> 00:41:13.329 about the types of... friends your kids hang 00:41:13.329 --> 00:41:15.269 around with like how much does that influence 00:41:15.269 --> 00:41:19.289 their behavior and and what they do yeah i know 00:41:19.289 --> 00:41:22.190 as parents you could do everything right but 00:41:22.190 --> 00:41:24.769 if they get in with the wrong wrong kids what 00:41:24.769 --> 00:41:27.550 can you do like what can you do it's really it's 00:41:27.550 --> 00:41:29.909 really difficult isn't it i think what you can 00:41:29.909 --> 00:41:33.070 do on that front is is as much as possible know 00:41:33.070 --> 00:41:35.610 who they're with and what they're doing even 00:41:35.610 --> 00:41:38.210 if you're not there supervising it so great example 00:41:38.210 --> 00:41:41.690 in adolescence was that on the night that boy 00:41:41.690 --> 00:41:44.010 committed the murder, they thought he was out 00:41:44.010 --> 00:41:45.889 with his friends and he had been, but then they'd 00:41:45.889 --> 00:41:49.670 left each other. Get to know their parents so 00:41:49.670 --> 00:41:51.050 that you're all, you know, if there's an issue, 00:41:51.130 --> 00:41:53.590 at least you're all sort of on the same team 00:41:53.590 --> 00:41:56.909 if possible. I think if you really think they're 00:41:56.909 --> 00:41:58.489 in with the wrong crowd, you can try and foster 00:41:58.489 --> 00:42:00.630 new interests and nudge them gently in the right 00:42:00.630 --> 00:42:03.570 direction. But I don't think picking your kids' 00:42:03.710 --> 00:42:07.550 friends for them never works, right? If they're 00:42:07.550 --> 00:42:09.250 in with the wrong crowd, they're not going to 00:42:09.250 --> 00:42:11.900 listen. to the fact that you think it's the wrong 00:42:11.900 --> 00:42:14.099 crowd. So I think that's really difficult. So 00:42:14.099 --> 00:42:15.920 I'm hearing stories from my husband when he used 00:42:15.920 --> 00:42:17.699 to say that once their parents went to bed, they'd 00:42:17.699 --> 00:42:19.239 sneak out of the house, climb out the window 00:42:19.239 --> 00:42:21.260 and stuff. Then how do you know what your kid's 00:42:21.260 --> 00:42:25.099 doing? Well, that's what, when I said earlier, 00:42:25.199 --> 00:42:28.780 I think that is what maybe our parents' generation 00:42:28.780 --> 00:42:34.159 were much better at. I saw a teenage boy the 00:42:34.159 --> 00:42:36.900 other day in my clinic and we were going through 00:42:36.900 --> 00:42:39.219 his general health and the big issue for him 00:42:39.219 --> 00:42:41.920 was that he was vaping and he was really hopelessly 00:42:41.920 --> 00:42:44.579 addicted to vaping because very high nicotine 00:42:44.579 --> 00:42:46.760 content. It's a real struggle for them to get 00:42:46.760 --> 00:42:50.719 off. And my son's only 11. He's not quite at 00:42:50.719 --> 00:42:53.860 that stage yet. I'm thinking, God, I would be. 00:42:54.300 --> 00:42:57.239 freaking out yeah you know it's illegal in singapore 00:42:57.239 --> 00:43:00.679 it's just this is a disaster the kids otherwise 00:43:00.679 --> 00:43:03.739 completely fine healthy and the dad said to me 00:43:03.739 --> 00:43:08.039 you know when i was his age i was going to the 00:43:08.039 --> 00:43:10.260 beach with my mates we'd build a bonfire we'd 00:43:10.260 --> 00:43:12.460 buy a couple of cases of beer we'd smoke cigarettes 00:43:12.460 --> 00:43:15.860 all of those things were completely stupid but 00:43:15.860 --> 00:43:18.619 he doesn't have anything like that here and he 00:43:18.619 --> 00:43:21.559 needs to experiment and push boundaries and take 00:43:21.559 --> 00:43:23.739 risks do i want him to be vaping of course i 00:43:23.739 --> 00:43:25.320 don't am i going to try and help him stop of 00:43:25.320 --> 00:43:27.900 course i am but i'm not going to sacrifice my 00:43:27.900 --> 00:43:31.239 relationship with him yeah um and i just thought 00:43:31.239 --> 00:43:33.679 well you know i hope i can uh hope i can take 00:43:33.679 --> 00:43:36.239 that approach when i'm uh when i'm in the same 00:43:36.239 --> 00:43:40.880 situation because think about what we all some 00:43:40.880 --> 00:43:42.860 of us may have been better behaved than others 00:43:42.860 --> 00:43:46.389 but i reckon we all did stuff as teenagers we 00:43:46.389 --> 00:43:49.030 would be frowned upon if our own kids were doing 00:43:49.030 --> 00:43:52.170 it. So it's not new that they want to, and going 00:43:52.170 --> 00:43:54.389 out and killing someone's obviously just the 00:43:54.389 --> 00:43:57.289 very extreme end of the scale. Of course. And 00:43:57.289 --> 00:43:59.489 the outcomes actually, when you look at teenagers 00:43:59.489 --> 00:44:02.949 who misbehave, they become sort of more regulated 00:44:02.949 --> 00:44:08.329 and do better in early adulthood. The ones that 00:44:08.329 --> 00:44:11.710 don't struggle in early adulthood. So there's 00:44:11.710 --> 00:44:15.260 a function to it. Like we are taking risks. I 00:44:15.260 --> 00:44:17.639 mean, our frontal lobe is malfunctioning, but 00:44:17.639 --> 00:44:20.980 it's an identity. development stage like we're 00:44:20.980 --> 00:44:23.059 testing that's why they're testing boundaries 00:44:23.059 --> 00:44:25.280 with us as well at home they're experimenting 00:44:25.280 --> 00:44:27.360 on you know the kind of music i want to listen 00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:31.579 to my hairdo you know am i a sort of republican 00:44:31.579 --> 00:44:34.900 or democrat or actually a liberal you know that's 00:44:34.900 --> 00:44:37.719 all par for the course and it's just a difficult 00:44:37.719 --> 00:44:39.840 ride for parents because we kind of have to sit 00:44:39.840 --> 00:44:41.880 on the side of the roller coaster and watch them 00:44:41.880 --> 00:44:44.539 go up and down we don't want to be on the roller 00:44:44.539 --> 00:44:47.500 coaster with them But we also don't want to keep 00:44:47.500 --> 00:44:49.400 an eye off them entirely because then that's 00:44:49.400 --> 00:44:52.280 neglect. But there's a certain amount of it that 00:44:52.280 --> 00:44:55.239 needs to happen in order for them to come out 00:44:55.239 --> 00:44:58.219 the other end as a fully functioning adult or 00:44:58.219 --> 00:45:00.340 fairly functioning adult. Sometimes it takes 00:45:00.340 --> 00:45:03.719 up to the age of 30 for it to fully end the stage. 00:45:04.590 --> 00:45:06.449 But it's an important stage. It's got a developmental 00:45:06.449 --> 00:45:08.949 function. And we even see it in birds. We see 00:45:08.949 --> 00:45:10.829 it across the animal kingdom that adolescents 00:45:10.829 --> 00:45:15.769 take bigger risks and boys are usually more risky 00:45:15.769 --> 00:45:19.570 than girls because of this developmental trajectory. 00:45:19.789 --> 00:45:24.150 And I do think it's something that there can 00:45:24.150 --> 00:45:27.309 be an even bigger mismatch with young people 00:45:27.309 --> 00:45:30.409 and parents at that stage, depending on our temperament. 00:45:30.449 --> 00:45:34.179 You know, if we are quite risk averse. then we're 00:45:34.179 --> 00:45:36.679 going to struggle more if we've got a child who's 00:45:36.679 --> 00:45:40.480 not as risk -averse as us. And I think I love 00:45:40.480 --> 00:45:44.280 that, what your patient was saying, that the 00:45:44.280 --> 00:45:46.679 relationship should trump everything. Because 00:45:46.679 --> 00:45:49.519 at the end of the day, that's really the only 00:45:49.519 --> 00:45:52.019 thing we can keep a hold of. They will leave 00:45:52.019 --> 00:45:54.079 home. They'll make decisions for themselves. 00:45:54.199 --> 00:45:56.440 What we want is them to be able to talk to us 00:45:56.440 --> 00:45:59.800 and feel safe. And that does begin the minute 00:45:59.800 --> 00:46:03.260 they're born. Like I have seen really sad stories 00:46:03.260 --> 00:46:06.400 of parents who haven't worked on the relationship 00:46:06.400 --> 00:46:10.519 and then teenage hits. And it's late. It's late 00:46:10.519 --> 00:46:11.940 to be thinking about it. I don't think it's a 00:46:11.940 --> 00:46:14.739 lost cause. We can work on it. But we really 00:46:14.739 --> 00:46:16.800 need to be thinking, you know, at your stage, 00:46:16.940 --> 00:46:20.820 like, do I, how do I involve my kids in conversations 00:46:20.820 --> 00:46:23.239 and making decisions for themselves, developing 00:46:23.239 --> 00:46:26.750 that autonomy? Obviously, at that stage, you 00:46:26.750 --> 00:46:28.630 need to be holding them a bit closer than teenagers. 00:46:28.849 --> 00:46:32.389 But by the age of teenage, you want to have some 00:46:32.389 --> 00:46:34.309 confidence in their decision -making and go, 00:46:34.429 --> 00:46:37.289 I'm not sure this is a great idea, but I'll trust 00:46:37.289 --> 00:46:39.250 you and we'll talk about it later. I like that. 00:46:39.329 --> 00:46:40.329 I think I'm going to have to start using that. 00:46:40.409 --> 00:46:42.590 Because my son's at the stage now where anything 00:46:42.590 --> 00:46:46.530 I say, anything I do, it's uncle. If I move his 00:46:46.530 --> 00:46:48.429 head to the side, he'll shake it. If I say, oh, 00:46:48.469 --> 00:46:50.489 that's a cool song. That's a shit song, mom. 00:46:50.610 --> 00:46:53.949 You know? That's very healthy. That's very healthy. 00:46:54.650 --> 00:46:57.809 That's a normal thing right there. 100%. I'm 00:46:57.809 --> 00:47:00.090 doing something right. I will say, when you were 00:47:00.090 --> 00:47:01.590 talking about, you know, kind of the calculated 00:47:01.590 --> 00:47:03.809 risk and then later in life, the impact, right? 00:47:03.849 --> 00:47:07.130 I think about both my brother and I are, well, 00:47:07.230 --> 00:47:10.230 I snuck out to get my first tattoo. My brother 00:47:10.230 --> 00:47:12.309 was 18, so he didn't have to sneak, but I was 00:47:12.309 --> 00:47:14.429 underage getting mine. And I remember my parents 00:47:14.429 --> 00:47:17.440 being like, hey, like you got the tattoo that's 00:47:17.440 --> 00:47:19.519 a part of you now and you know that's a choice 00:47:19.519 --> 00:47:21.099 you made you're gonna have to live with it but 00:47:21.099 --> 00:47:23.219 they never tried to stop me and they didn't punish 00:47:23.219 --> 00:47:25.239 me for it and I remember thinking I got away 00:47:25.239 --> 00:47:27.539 with it right like like I got that tattoo and 00:47:27.539 --> 00:47:30.199 I showed them but what's interesting is had they 00:47:30.199 --> 00:47:33.300 really hammered me on that on the tattoo at that 00:47:33.300 --> 00:47:35.420 I was 16 at that age and like had they really 00:47:35.420 --> 00:47:37.000 hammered me down on the tattoo and really made 00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:39.980 a big freaking deal about it I think that it 00:47:40.360 --> 00:47:42.519 It wouldn't have been like it would have been 00:47:42.519 --> 00:47:45.320 something that broke our trust at that age because 00:47:45.320 --> 00:47:47.380 at that age it was so important to me. You know, 00:47:47.380 --> 00:47:49.639 that one little and we're both covered now. So 00:47:49.639 --> 00:47:52.780 it's interesting because it's a risk in some 00:47:52.780 --> 00:47:56.599 ways. Right. And it's something that was my parents 00:47:56.599 --> 00:47:59.800 obviously calculated the fact that if we go hard 00:47:59.800 --> 00:48:01.659 on this thing that really doesn't matter in the 00:48:01.659 --> 00:48:04.889 long run, it's going to affect. Their trust in 00:48:04.889 --> 00:48:06.289 me, both of us, you know, their trust in me moving 00:48:06.289 --> 00:48:08.469 forward. And I think that that's an example of, 00:48:08.469 --> 00:48:10.690 you know, again, submarine parenting at its best, 00:48:10.710 --> 00:48:13.210 meaning like they were not thrilled. But in the 00:48:13.210 --> 00:48:15.829 long run, I think little moments like that allowed 00:48:15.829 --> 00:48:18.110 us to build a deeper element of trust. It's funny 00:48:18.110 --> 00:48:20.489 because obviously I'm. indian background and 00:48:20.489 --> 00:48:22.889 my husband is as well and he got his ear pierced 00:48:22.889 --> 00:48:26.449 when he was a teenager and his mom yeah his mom 00:48:26.449 --> 00:48:29.230 was not impressed she actually threw some snooker 00:48:29.230 --> 00:48:33.829 balls so obviously we live in asia i guess you 00:48:33.829 --> 00:48:35.929 know the viewpoint in asian culture is a little 00:48:35.929 --> 00:48:38.289 bit different you know like amanda says like 00:48:38.289 --> 00:48:40.730 you obviously live in in an asian household yeah 00:48:40.730 --> 00:48:45.130 when we've been brought up in a particular environment, 00:48:45.489 --> 00:48:48.769 we kind of have this conflict, like this conflicting 00:48:48.769 --> 00:48:51.510 idea. You know, sometimes I'm thinking, oh my 00:48:51.510 --> 00:48:53.849 God, I really want to slap you because they're 00:48:53.849 --> 00:48:55.730 getting on my nerves. That would be the Indian 00:48:55.730 --> 00:48:59.210 in me coming out. But then me growing up in the 00:48:59.210 --> 00:49:01.550 UK, I'm like, no, I can't do that. I need to 00:49:01.550 --> 00:49:04.329 talk to them. Gentle parenting hat. So how do 00:49:04.329 --> 00:49:06.769 you manage this then as a parent? I mean, that's 00:49:06.769 --> 00:49:10.289 sort of outside of the whole, the boy issues 00:49:10.289 --> 00:49:12.550 that we've been talking here. That's just a... 00:49:12.679 --> 00:49:16.599 fundamentally challenging thing around multiculturalism. 00:49:16.599 --> 00:49:20.599 And I guess maybe accepting that the fact that 00:49:20.599 --> 00:49:23.800 you have those different elements to your background. 00:49:24.380 --> 00:49:26.960 is a net positive, even though they come with 00:49:26.960 --> 00:49:29.780 some struggles. I definitely think, I mean, we 00:49:29.780 --> 00:49:31.599 see it, we send our kids to international schools 00:49:31.599 --> 00:49:33.059 here where there's parents from all over the 00:49:33.059 --> 00:49:37.000 world. And you see the differing attitudes to 00:49:37.000 --> 00:49:40.420 various elements of parenting. We've just got 00:49:40.420 --> 00:49:43.000 to work that out for ourselves. I think, you 00:49:43.000 --> 00:49:44.940 know, it is a challenge if you've been raised 00:49:44.940 --> 00:49:47.579 in one culture and now your kids are being raised 00:49:47.579 --> 00:49:50.630 in a different one. I think that's certainly 00:49:50.630 --> 00:49:53.590 a struggle I see. And when we've done these talks, 00:49:53.869 --> 00:49:58.010 one of the frequent, we always see some new people 00:49:58.010 --> 00:49:59.929 coming to see us on the back of it. And a frequent 00:49:59.929 --> 00:50:04.110 one I see would be parents from various Asian 00:50:04.110 --> 00:50:07.210 backgrounds going to a talk on boys, hearing 00:50:07.210 --> 00:50:10.670 a man who's grown up in a Western culture and 00:50:10.670 --> 00:50:14.309 a boy and coming, wanting advice around that 00:50:14.309 --> 00:50:16.550 kind of thing. Because maybe they think that 00:50:16.550 --> 00:50:19.170 I've got. different frame of reference on it 00:50:19.170 --> 00:50:20.869 for them. But it's not that I'm right and they're 00:50:20.869 --> 00:50:23.610 wrong or vice versa. It's just trying to find 00:50:23.610 --> 00:50:28.869 a balance. If you could share one thing with 00:50:28.869 --> 00:50:32.650 people listening today about how we can support 00:50:32.650 --> 00:50:35.889 boys going forward, what do you think would be 00:50:35.889 --> 00:50:38.210 sort of the biggest thing that you would like 00:50:38.210 --> 00:50:42.389 to put out there? Well, I'm a big proponent of 00:50:42.389 --> 00:50:45.050 giving individuals, not just boys, permission 00:50:45.050 --> 00:50:48.880 to be. I love this idea, and I think it's probably 00:50:48.880 --> 00:50:51.719 a bit far -fetched. I mean, you can't just be 00:50:51.719 --> 00:50:53.559 whatever you want to be all the time in every 00:50:53.559 --> 00:50:57.840 context. But this idea that making room for who 00:50:57.840 --> 00:51:01.840 you are and the feelings that you carry, and 00:51:01.840 --> 00:51:05.659 especially with boys, because we know from the 00:51:05.659 --> 00:51:10.119 data that women are just as responsible for how 00:51:10.119 --> 00:51:13.489 we're educating boys emotionally. Like we expect 00:51:13.489 --> 00:51:16.050 so much from our men. Like if we look at the 00:51:16.050 --> 00:51:18.449 stats, women still expect to be provided for. 00:51:18.969 --> 00:51:22.489 Women still expect men to be stoic and have it 00:51:22.489 --> 00:51:24.909 all together. So I see a lot of men in my practice 00:51:24.909 --> 00:51:27.309 and they come to me and they tell me I can't 00:51:27.309 --> 00:51:29.630 be vulnerable at home because that would freak 00:51:29.630 --> 00:51:33.000 my wife out. So we need to take responsibility 00:51:33.000 --> 00:51:36.219 for our own stereotypes. Like what stereotypes 00:51:36.219 --> 00:51:39.420 are we carrying around us? And I'll put my hand 00:51:39.420 --> 00:51:42.099 up that I had lots of stereotypes. I still do. 00:51:42.179 --> 00:51:44.780 I'm sure some of them are not as conscious as 00:51:44.780 --> 00:51:47.460 I'd like them to be. So really allowing boys 00:51:47.460 --> 00:51:51.420 to express more vulnerable emotions. Pressuring 00:51:51.420 --> 00:51:53.880 them, like my boys tell me all the time, enough 00:51:53.880 --> 00:51:59.380 with the feelings. I'm fine, mommy. But I think 00:51:59.380 --> 00:52:02.099 to make more room for that, make more room, permission 00:52:02.099 --> 00:52:06.199 to be who they are, be it a little more impulsive 00:52:06.199 --> 00:52:08.239 than we'd like to, a little more reactive, but 00:52:08.239 --> 00:52:11.079 even a little more emotional. Because I think 00:52:11.079 --> 00:52:13.420 we find it hard to see vulnerability in boys 00:52:13.420 --> 00:52:16.699 and men. And so how do we make room for that? 00:52:17.340 --> 00:52:19.699 That's a tough one, isn't it? How about yourself? 00:52:19.820 --> 00:52:22.840 So my one thing not to go, I don't want to go 00:52:22.840 --> 00:52:24.800 back over stuff we've already spoken about. So 00:52:24.800 --> 00:52:27.780 a new one would be trying to bring a bit more 00:52:27.780 --> 00:52:32.579 humor and positivity. So these are serious topics. 00:52:32.860 --> 00:52:35.360 You should take them seriously. We have a tendency 00:52:35.360 --> 00:52:37.860 to speak about them very seriously. And most 00:52:37.860 --> 00:52:42.900 men do their best communicating amongst each 00:52:42.900 --> 00:52:46.869 other by constantly. either being funny or trying 00:52:46.869 --> 00:52:51.449 to be. And a lot of these influencers will use 00:52:51.449 --> 00:52:56.070 that sort of almost silliness and humor to win 00:52:56.070 --> 00:52:59.190 boys over. And we need to remember to sometimes 00:52:59.190 --> 00:53:02.530 have a bit of a laugh and a joke with them as 00:53:02.530 --> 00:53:06.710 well. I played golf with three other guys on 00:53:06.710 --> 00:53:10.949 Wednesday last week and I got home and saw my 00:53:10.949 --> 00:53:14.030 wife in the evening. She knows them. Any news? 00:53:14.309 --> 00:53:16.940 Updates. Yeah. No, not really. Not a one. She's 00:53:16.940 --> 00:53:18.239 like, how long were you playing for? I was like, 00:53:18.239 --> 00:53:21.420 five hours. Any news? Nope. No? Don't think so. 00:53:21.760 --> 00:53:24.619 We just kind of, I don't know, joked around. 00:53:25.139 --> 00:53:26.800 Sort of took the mickey out of each other, whatever 00:53:26.800 --> 00:53:30.719 it was. So I think those celebrating those forms 00:53:30.719 --> 00:53:32.659 of communication is not just frivolous. They 00:53:32.659 --> 00:53:36.219 actually have value and making it a bit more 00:53:36.219 --> 00:53:39.559 joyful and fun sometimes. It's not always easy, 00:53:39.679 --> 00:53:41.659 but yeah, that would be my one. I love that. 00:53:41.699 --> 00:53:43.980 I'm going to remember that. My son does make, 00:53:44.039 --> 00:53:46.840 well, the old one, he loves to make jokes. The 00:53:46.840 --> 00:53:49.340 other day I was using Siri to send a message 00:53:49.340 --> 00:53:51.219 to my helper to ask her to prepare something. 00:53:51.820 --> 00:53:54.519 As I had just finished, she decided to say, bum, 00:53:54.659 --> 00:53:56.940 bum, bum, bum, bum. So obviously when Siri's 00:53:56.940 --> 00:53:59.500 repeating the message back to me, it was, oh, 00:53:59.559 --> 00:54:02.480 please can you get the... pastor on bum bum bum 00:54:02.480 --> 00:54:05.500 bum and they were all in hysterics and i think 00:54:05.500 --> 00:54:07.500 you know i need to remember that that's important 00:54:07.500 --> 00:54:12.440 it often falls on the mum to not be that person 00:54:12.440 --> 00:54:15.699 right so we were on holiday over easter and on 00:54:15.699 --> 00:54:18.500 the first morning uh my wife said the kids were 00:54:18.500 --> 00:54:20.860 doing something annoying at breakfast and my 00:54:20.860 --> 00:54:22.780 wife said guys i don't want to be the person 00:54:22.780 --> 00:54:25.139 all holiday who's just saying no no no no no 00:54:25.139 --> 00:54:28.510 and me and the kids just fell about laughing 00:54:28.510 --> 00:54:32.769 because of course she will be yes so so it's 00:54:32.769 --> 00:54:34.389 that's not but that's not her fault you know 00:54:34.389 --> 00:54:38.349 i need to to be more of the bad cop as well yeah 00:54:38.349 --> 00:54:40.869 um but yeah i think we remember need to remember 00:54:40.869 --> 00:54:42.960 to laugh and have fun with them That's brilliant. 00:54:43.360 --> 00:54:45.440 Well, thank you both so much for coming today. 00:54:45.519 --> 00:54:47.500 I feel like this is such an important conversation 00:54:47.500 --> 00:54:50.059 and it's given us so much food for thought. You 00:54:50.059 --> 00:54:52.860 know, I feel in order to help raise boys so that 00:54:52.860 --> 00:54:55.900 they are emotionally strong and connected, we 00:54:55.900 --> 00:54:58.199 do need to listen to them, speak to them and 00:54:58.199 --> 00:55:00.760 be there for them. So thank you so much. Thank 00:55:00.760 --> 00:55:03.500 you very much. Thanks, guys. Thank you. All right. 00:55:03.559 --> 00:55:05.920 Let's talk about strength training. It is one 00:55:05.920 --> 00:55:07.920 of the most powerful things you can do for your 00:55:07.920 --> 00:55:10.949 body, especially in your 40s. It's true. It's 00:55:10.949 --> 00:55:13.329 not always easy to build strength, but it's vital. 00:55:13.469 --> 00:55:15.130 Strength training will help you with metabolism 00:55:15.130 --> 00:55:17.750 firing, strengthen your bones and makes daily 00:55:17.750 --> 00:55:20.710 tasks way easier. Plus it gives you that extra 00:55:20.710 --> 00:55:23.250 confidence in your body. Exactly. It's tough 00:55:23.250 --> 00:55:25.670 work, but it's so worth it. And that's where 00:55:25.670 --> 00:55:27.789 Great Moves comes in. They'll guide you through 00:55:27.789 --> 00:55:30.019 the process. help you build strength the right 00:55:30.019 --> 00:55:32.820 way and keep you motivated. No gimmicks, just 00:55:32.820 --> 00:55:35.360 real results. It's time to stop coasting. Strength 00:55:35.360 --> 00:55:37.440 training isn't just about building muscle. It's 00:55:37.440 --> 00:55:39.639 about building resilience and feeling strong 00:55:39.639 --> 00:55:42.280 every day. And Great Moves is here to help you 00:55:42.280 --> 00:55:45.500 do exactly that. And we've got an exclusive offer 00:55:45.500 --> 00:55:50.500 just for our audience. Use code TFF30 at moves 00:55:50.500 --> 00:55:54.880 .great .com for $20 off your trial class or 50 00:55:54.880 --> 00:55:58.039 % off any five session starter pack. Guys, you 00:55:58.039 --> 00:55:59.820 know, we love coffee. And if you want to show 00:55:59.820 --> 00:56:01.260 us some love, you know, you can always get us 00:56:01.260 --> 00:56:05.539 one. Just visit buymeacoffee .com slash the 40s 00:56:05.539 --> 00:56:09.519 formula. Cheers. Before we go, please remember 00:56:09.519 --> 00:56:11.880 to hit subscribe and take a moment to support 00:56:11.880 --> 00:56:14.500 the 40s formula by leaving a review on your favorite 00:56:14.500 --> 00:56:17.300 podcast platform. Your reviews will help us to 00:56:17.300 --> 00:56:19.300 reach more people and allow us to continue to 00:56:19.300 --> 00:56:21.519 bring valuable content. It should only take a 00:56:21.519 --> 00:56:23.179 moment and it's a free way for you to support 00:56:23.179 --> 00:56:25.500 the show. You can also stay updated with The 00:56:25.500 --> 00:56:29.519 40s Formula by following us on Instagram at The40sFormula, 00:56:29.619 --> 00:56:32.420 all one word. We share behind the scenes insights, 00:56:32.760 --> 00:56:35.719 episode updates and much more. So please be sure 00:56:35.719 --> 00:56:38.019 to hit that follow button. We appreciate your 00:56:38.019 --> 00:56:39.860 time and support. Thank you for being part of 00:56:39.860 --> 00:56:41.760 this community. And we'll be back next week for 00:56:41.760 --> 00:56:43.559 more empowering conversations with inspiring 00:56:43.559 --> 00:57:28.840 guests. Bye. We have disallowed males from the 00:57:28.840 --> 00:57:30.320 studio. And I'm not kidding. Literally, we've 00:57:30.320 --> 00:57:32.340 done it on purpose. We've said no to so many 00:57:32.340 --> 00:57:34.400 males. That's why you've got a problem with boys. 00:57:34.559 --> 00:57:37.539 Yeah, exactly. What's the problem with boys? 00:57:38.039 --> 00:57:40.980 Why do they feel alienated? Because they don't 00:57:40.980 --> 00:57:44.280 get invited on podcasts. That is really cool. 00:57:44.380 --> 00:57:47.179 And it's been something that's intentional. We 00:57:47.179 --> 00:57:48.920 have not wanted to have men on the podcast because 00:57:48.920 --> 00:57:50.860 we position ourselves as a women's health podcast 00:57:50.860 --> 00:57:53.420 with female experts talking to women. But this 00:57:53.420 --> 00:57:55.019 was important enough that we... Oh, thank you. 00:57:55.059 --> 00:57:57.880 Yeah, so season five. Well, technically it'll 00:57:57.880 --> 00:58:01.539 be season six, so 61 episodes later. Wow. Welcome. 00:58:01.980 --> 00:58:04.059 Oh, this is an important one to have a man in. 00:58:04.139 --> 00:58:06.219 Yeah? Yeah. For sure.