I've come across a lot of women at work who have
it all figured out, but at home, you know, it's
not necessarily the case. There is a lot of stigma
around telling people that you are cluttered
or disorganized. I think it's a signal for me
that we need to make some changes in our life
and address it really. Holding is really a mental
condition and, you know, it does affect two to
five percent of the population. We have to face
the stuff and this discomfort and trying to understand
what it is telling us. Take a step back and look
at the benefits that you're going to get by having
a more organized and tidy space. You're the expert
in your life. I'm the expert in organizing. And
it's only that. Together, we can create systems
that you're going to be able to maintain. I see
so many people who don't want to start because
they're just waiting for the perfect time and
it never comes. If you're not ready, you know,
it's going to be too forceful, too painful, and
it's not certainly the right time to do that.
Hello and welcome to the 40s Formula, your go
-to place for insightful discussions on navigating
your 40s and thriving in this transformative
decade. We're your hosts, Amanda and Jasmine,
two women that are passionate about exploring
the challenges and adventures that come with
turning 40 and what lies ahead. the founder of
Get Organized and Beyond, and an advocate for
intentional living. She's passionate about empowering
neurodiverse women who feel overwhelmed by clutter
or struggle with daily life, reclaim their space,
time, and mental clarity. She's dedicated to
helping her clients develop personalized and
sustainable organizing systems and habits that
align with their unique needs and neurodiverse
strengths. Based in Singapore since 1998, Natalie
combines her professional expertise with her
personal journey to provide compassionate and
effective coaching. So here at the 40s Formula,
we talk a lot about self -improvement and wellness
and health, but we've never actually addressed
something that I know for me personally is a
huge stumbling block to feeling like I live an
optimized life. And that is organization and
clutter. Natalie, we are so happy to have you.
Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having
me. First thing I thought of when I thought about,
you know, again, my personal struggles with organization
is a quote that I'm telling clients all the time,
which is how you do anything is how you do everything.
Do you think that that tenet applies to home
organization? There's certainly some truth in
it. I guess the outer environment can be the
reflect of our inner state. In particular, if
you suffer from depression, anxiety, post -traumatic
stress disorder, it's kind of probably going
to translate in clutter. Not always, but it certainly
can. There is also the case of neurodiversity,
people who suffer from OCD. ADHD, autism, they
do face executive functioning challenges, which
make it difficult for them to plan, to prioritize,
to make decisions. And then it's going to translate
also into clutter. It's nothing wrong with them.
It's just the way the brain is wired, right?
But sometimes clutter is just the result of a
lack of organizing skills. necessarily being
taught by our parents or by our schools about
getting organized. And then again, it results
in clutter. Sometimes it's just situational,
you know, life happens. I would like to claim
mine is situational. We'll see. Yes. So it can
be a new baby. It can be the death of a loved
one. It can be a new job or just a big project
at work. Or it could be COVID and being stuck
out of a circle. than at home. And even for the
most organised person, it can translate into
organising challenges for a while. And then there
is also, you know, we all have different priorities.
I've come across a lot of women at work who have
it all figured out. But at home, you know, it's
not necessarily the case and they don't really
mind. And I think that's OK. We're all different,
right? I think it's only when it starts affecting,
you know, your relationships in particular, that
maybe you need to do something about it. But
I think, you know, wherever the clutter comes
from, I think we shouldn't be looking at it from
a place of shame. And there is a lot of stigma
around, you know, telling people that you are
cluttered or disorganized. I think it's a signal
for me that we need to make some changes in our
life and address it really. I had a client who
really struggled with emotional eating because
she was struggling with the state of her home
she said that the laundry was just getting out
of control she couldn't keep up with the housework
everything was just everywhere and then that
led her to binge binge on biscuits chocolates
things that she shouldn't really be eating and
i remember when we put in a plan to focus on
how she could address her her home It really
helped her manage her eating habits as well.
Do you find that people have this interaction
between how cluttered they're? their environment
is to how cluttered their brain or maybe even
their habits are as well? Yeah, completely. I
mean, you know, the case that you're mentioning,
I've seen it many, many times, you know, a cluttered
kitchen and you cannot really prepare food there.
And even if you do, maybe the family doesn't
eat together because, you know, there is no schedule.
And then you end up by even, you know, relying
on. take away food or delivery and you know that
it's, you know, loaded with fat and sugar more
than if you were cooking at home. And definitely
that can impact, yeah, our habits, our daily
habits. What are the main issues? So thinking
about women in their 40s specifically, so women
in midlife, right? I think a theme that comes
up for us a lot here on the 40s formula is women
in this age group, we are... often overwhelmed
right we're working full -time a lot of us are
mothers a lot of us are caregiving to elderly
parents a lot going on right sure so why are
we holding on to stuff right why at this age
when i think overwhelm is a bigger issue than
not having enough to do let's put it that way
yeah why are we holding on to that stuff and
accumulating so much yeah it's true we have so
many things to juggle and you know you would
think that by minimizing what you own it will
make your life easier that's for sure but the
reality as human being and especially as women
in our 40s we have accumulated a lot of experiences
and we impart meaning to our stuff So whether
it's, you know, some hopes for the future, maybe
some memories, maybe some fears even. When we
have to detach from the stuff, of course, it
brings a lot of emotional issues and it's difficult.
There are, you know, many reasons why we tend
to hold on to our things. The first one being
sentimental. you know, things that have been
gifted to us or things that we have inherited
from a loved one. So it's, you know, there are
a lot of memories attached and we feel that if
we let go, we're going to lose the memory or
there's going to be more distance, you know,
with the person or the event, you know, in which
we acquire this item. There is also the aspirational
reasons, you know, we hope to live that type
of life, to be that type of person. But reality
is not necessarily, you know, representing that.
I know many ladies who, you know, would like
to be a great cook, to provide, you know, healthy
dinner every day, cook from scratch on the table.
And they are working, you know, 12 hours a day.
But yet they're going to accumulate all the kitchen
gadgets that you can possibly think, you know,
because you think that that's the person you
want to be. And if you let go of them, then that's...
you know prevent you from being that person I
think it must be the same with clothes as well
I'm hanging on to clothes in my closet that I
was like I will fit into those one day yes that
one day hasn't come yet yeah I don't know what
to do like how can I get rid of the stuff do
you just say just do it you know just close your
eyes and just chuck it all away like what steps
are there in Having a clear out of things that
you no longer use, no longer need. What can we
do? No longer serving you. Exactly, no longer
serving you. So many ladies can relate to the
wardrobe, you know, issues for sure. My philosophy
when it comes to clutter is that we have to take
the time. We have to face the stuff. and the
discomfort it might bring. We have to understand
why we are holding on to it. We talk about, you
know, the sentimental clutter, the aspirational
clutter, and there are other, you know, type
of clutter. But we have to face the stuff and
this discomfort and trying to understand what...
it is telling us because unless we face this
unless um we are able to start rewriting the
narrative behind the stuff then the clutter is
going to come back my approach and that's where
for people i deal with a lot of people who really
struggle to to let go the level of attachment
it's it's very strong and of course by being
by their side i can provide this emotional support
and you know but most importantly to help them
voice out those stories. And quite often when
you voice out the stories, you realize, well,
actually it doesn't need to be this way. So for
me, instead of rushing and pushing yourself to
make decision that you might regret in the future,
that's going to create a terrible, you know,
experience. Then it's better to take your time
and confront, you know, the stuff and be able
to rewrite the stories behind it. Can you tell
us a story of a client that you had so basically
that was really struggling to let go like what
like was it the sentimental thing or was it the
aspirational thing and how you got them past
it because I do feel like we all can maybe identify
or see ourselves in one of those categories right
but then when we think about actually doing it
there's a block yeah so what do you do in person
that makes that hurdle easier to jump it's interesting
because i quite actually often hold my client
back they kind of feel pressurized that by having
an outsider i'm going to be judging them by how
much they let go off but for me that's not a
successful decluttering i mean for me it's by
my client who feel 150 confident they making
the right decision that they are ready to let
go because as i said if there is some hesitation
then you're going to regret it, you know, down
the road. And, you know, clutter is going to
keep entering your life and you're going to have
to repeat the process. So for me, it's about
really telling them you have to be 150 % confident
about what you're going to let go of. And I think
there is a right time to let go of things. And
then that removes, you know, the pressure. And
then you start confronting the stuff. And of
course, you know, the cortisol level at first
are going to be very high. But over time, it's
going to, you know, it's going to come down.
And I did have a client with a very strong attachment
to the belonging, especially the children belongings.
She had missed a period of children life for,
I think, a few months or years. And, you know,
a decade later, she just couldn't part with those
items because that was, you know, a memory of
that time that she had missed. So again. And,
you know, and she, interestingly, she wanted
to start with those very emotionally driven items.
I typically advise my client to start in categories
where we don't have a strong attachment to. But
she really wanted to start there. And so it was,
you know, really taking her at her own speed.
And then we started with the clothes and took
the clothes out. And then, you know, we say we're
just going to have a look at, you know, what's
in. there and then she realized well they were
clothes that were damaged you know so definitely
didn't elicit very you know positive memories
so she was able to let go of a little bit of
this and I think we left it there you know the
first session then we went back to it and we
kind of thought about What could we be doing
with those clothes? And we came up with the idea
of making a quilt out of some of the baby clothes.
And there were two ladies, I'm sorry, I can't
remember the name of their company, but they
did an amazing job in putting together a quilt
that she could put on the bed and then enjoy
every single day without having tons of clothes.
And then she sees it. It's actually out there.
It's not in a box somewhere. Absolutely. Yeah,
absolutely. She sees it. She enjoys it. And there
is there was, you know, another category of clothes
that that was really the one that she was most
attached to that she kept in a memory box. I
mean, in honesty, we started with several memory
box. You know, for me, it's really an iterative
process. And and that's how she got there. So
I think it's about I think. You know, the fear
about decluttering, of letting go, is actually
more to do with the thought of decluttering.
But when you get to do it, you know, you're going
to quiet the fear and you're going to be able
to make those baby steps if it has to be. You
know, the idea is to end up with less than where
you started. It doesn't have to be 80 % of what
you own. How do you know when the time is right
to declutter? Yeah, I mean, you certainly have
to be ready for it. Typically, people come to
me when they have tried many times on their own.
Sometimes they have received judgment from family.
You know, why would you need this type of help?
You should be able to do it. But deep down, it's
just a feeling of overwhelm. There is, you know,
they just can't manage. a toll on on their life
and i think most importantly you know it's uh
the feeling of overwhelm of guilt of shame the
self -esteem or the relationship with a loved
one that you know drive them to take to take
action i think for me it's very important they
are ready because if you're not ready you know
it's going to be too forceful too painful and
it's not not certainly the right time to do that
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shop. Can I give you a real life example? Sure,
please. Of an anonymous couple, let's call them
the blims. So the wife, no problem decluttering,
would throw away everything in the house, does
not have sentimental attachments, pretty okay
with it. The husband, despite expressing sentiments
to this degree, struggles to throw away, for
example, old medical textbooks, you know, where
like, you know, it's three editions later, you
know, like that information isn't even relevant
anymore, right? But no, I need that because I
had that when I was in medical school. You know,
that was a seminal textbook for me. How do you
work with couples where, you know, or families,
let's say, or, you know, whatever partnerships,
whereby there is a difference of opinion on what
needs to go and what needs to stay? It's, I have
to say, you're... Not the only one. Again, not
me. This is our hypothetical situation. Sorry.
Yes, I'm assumed. Just in case my husband's listening.
Go on. I see a lot of families where one side
is kind of, you know, needs order and is ready
to declutter and to let go. And the other person,
let's put it nicely, you know, doesn't see it
as a problem. That's definitely a challenge.
I think I always advise my client to start with
your own space. You have to come clear. You have
to lead by example. You have to do a clear out
of your own space. And sometimes you have to
close your eyes on. their own spaces as well.
I understand that. I think when it comes to,
you know, shared spaces, that's where the main
challenges can be. We tend to focus too much
on the stuff, on the clutter and be nagging the
people around it. I always suggest to, you know,
take a step back and look at the benefits that
you're going to, you know, going to get by having,
you know, a more organized and tidy space. I
remember a few years ago, I had a Singaporean
lady. She was living. in the US with her husband
and children. And she asked my help for a mom
here. And the mom was accumulating a lot of things
and has been using the daughter's room, you know,
as a storage room. And as a result, when the
daughter was visiting, she couldn't, you know,
stay with the mom or it was very crowded and
not really very nice. So the daughter, you know,
kept telling the mom to do clutter and you know
talking about how You know, it was difficult.
If you don't declutter, your daughter is not
able to come. You're not going to enjoy your
children, you know, presence as much as you would
like to. Then that's kind of got her started.
So it's about looking at what are the benefits
for everyone. But of course, you know, sometimes
you're going to have to make also some some find
some common ground. Yeah, that's the reality
of, you know, of things. So that example you've
just used. Would you say that the mum was holding
on to... and accumulating things because her
daughter had gone and it was almost like a replacement.
Do you think that might have been the situation
or am I just looking too much into it? No, I
mean, it might have been. I can't answer that
question for sure. If I remember, the mom was
a teacher in the past and you know how they tend
to accumulate a lot of books, a lot of paper
in particular, and there was a lot of that. So
was she... it might well have been, but I'm not
sure. I think it was more, I don't like using
the word holding, but yeah, cluttering tendencies
for sure. Yeah. And was that a success story?
Did the mom hear that message of, you know, your
daughter can't visit here if this room doesn't
get cleaned up? Yeah, it was amazing, you know,
that she, it was really baby steps, but she was
willing to try and she really put some efforts
into it, yeah. Do you find that you have people,
women, who want to declutter and they'll go through
a phase like maybe once every few months of getting
rid of the crap but it builds up again and then
they're back at square one how can you motivate
or help women change those habits so it doesn't
get to a point where everything piles on and
then they have to start again at square one again
rather than you know keeping it I guess, steady
all the way through. Yeah. First of all, we have
to accept that clutter didn't accumulate overnight
and it's not going to disappear overnight either.
Yeah, I think for me, you have to look at it,
you know, as a journey. and to start somewhere
and, you know, to build progressively onto it
rather than doing a big decluttering exercise
and just leaving it there. But I think there
is a lot of part, you know, it's... If you really
want to stay clutter -free, of course you need
to start decluttering, but you also need to put
in place organizing systems. Those systems, you
know, they're going to have to rely on habits.
And then it's a question of practicing them so
that you can prevent the clutter from coming
back. And another thing is to try to limit as
well as much you bring in so that you don't,
you know. keep adding to the clutter. Of course,
it's easier said than done. It can be quite helpful
as well. But I mean, habits, you know, can be,
I mean, starting with organizing story could
be to find a home to. every item that you own.
And the habit will be to put the item back to
the place where it belongs to. And, you know,
if you try to do that, instead of putting things
down, to put them away right away. And if it's
possible, if you have find a home for all your
belongings, then, you know, it's going to prevent
pile of stuff accumulating and later on to have
to go back to it. So those small little, you
know. habits, it's going to make the difference
into the buildup. Yeah, I am so glad that you
brought up systems because this is, you know,
as a coach, obviously, that's how I coach changing
your lifestyle for health, right? It's like you
have to build an environment of systems that
you can execute on repeat. It's all great and
well if you can follow a meal plan for a week
or something, right? But when you travel, then
what? You know, you've lost your system. So I
love the idea of systems. I remember when I did
hire a home organizer. This is years ago. This
would have been 2012. I was single. That was
years ago. Yeah. We're talking a long time ago
and I was single. So different challenges. Let's
put it this way. But I remember one of the lasting
things I will never forget that she helped me
with is setting up a system in the kitchen. that
flowed with what my morning routine was, right?
So I would lose time. One of my concerns back
then was like getting out of the house quickly
because I used to leave for work at 4 .30 in
the morning. So like I was like, I need to like
get out, you know? And she was like, what do
you need to do before you leave the house? I
was like, I need to make coffee and eat breakfast.
So we set up a coffee station where my mug was
there. Like my mug was right above my coffee.
And I know that seems really obvious, right?
But previously my coffee maker was on one side
of the kitchen. My mugs were over here. And she's
like, move your mugs over there, even if they're
separate from all the other glasses, you know,
because you're not looking for other glasses.
You're looking for mugs. So put them next to
your coffee machine because that was where the
plug was. I couldn't read. And, you know, and
then put your your coffee that you're going to
brew, put it in the filter the night before so
that instead of getting it out, opening it, portioning,
you just push the button. She's like she's like
set up the systems the night before that then
make that easier. Right. I tell you all of this
to say that I think. There's a huge difference
between the ability to declutter and the ability
to set up systems. Yes. And I think that second
one is more challenging. It depends. Actually,
everybody is different. But I think when I look
at organizing, sometimes people try to make.
to put system in place, but are too complicated.
So you really have to put system in place with
the minimum number of steps to complete so that
things can be done repetitively, as you said.
Make it easy. Exactly. I was actually very recently
working with a client and she was organizing
a chest of drawers with personal items in there.
And in there was the jewelry box. And she was
telling me. Whatever I do, you know, when I come
back from work or an event at night, I remove
my jewelry and it will stay on top of the dresser.
And so we look a bit, you know, deeper what was
happening. It turns out that she had the jewelry
box inside the drawer. So every time she needed
to access or put away the jewelry, she had to
open the drawer, take the box out. open the lid
of the jewelry box, take or put away the item,
close the lid, put it back in the drawer, close
the drawer. Obviously, when you come back from
work and you're tired, this is not going to happen.
So the idea was just actually to remove the lid
from the jewelry box. So just by doing that,
you just had to open the drawer. put the things
in and close the drawers three steps instead
of seven or nine you know and then it was the
jury went back in so we really or when we talk
about organizing system we have to make things
you know simple that's gonna help us based on
our on our lifestyle as you say based on your
needs based on you on your habits as well so
that's you know it just flows naturally and again
maybe thinking outside the box like pop the lid
off that jewelry box. That's not impossible,
but she may have never seen that solution because
she was so thinking about this is my jewelry
box and it's in this drawer. I think that's why
having another set of eyes in anything that you're
trying to improve, get a pro to look at you for
a while because they will see things that you
don't see. Yeah, for sure. How did you get into
this line of work, Natalie? How did this become
a job, a career for you? It's been a professional
job for close to 12 years now, but it's actually
a passion that started as a child. I think actually,
looking back, I think it was... a calling. It's
a calling to me. But yeah, it started as a child.
I was raised in a kind of disorganized environment.
My father tended to accumulate everything that
would come his way. He had been born during the
Second World War, a lot of privation. And of
course, you know, he was keeping everything.
And my mom was a very last minute person, you
know, around 8 p .m., although she was, you know,
a housewife. She would wonder what to put, you
know, on the table for dinner. And I mean, as
a child, I, you know, I needed the structure
and order. And then I started to kind of implement
some systems at home to have little corner organized.
And I loved it so much that when I was actually
invited to my friend for some play date, I was.
quite often ending up helping me helping the
parents to tidy a little corner and i i love
it as a kid to be friends with my kids yeah yeah
i often hear you know oh yeah i would have loved
that i think 20 Five years also later, when I
became a mother, I was traveling very extensively
for my work at that point. And when my son was
born, I decided to set up some routines at home
so that things could run smoothly when I was
not around. And actually, I realized that it
was, you know, beyond efficiency. It was a question
of just sanity, you know, my peace of mind when
I was away and the relationship, you know, with
my husband and the family. family of keeping
things under control. And I was my friend, you
know, struggling, you know, with trying to manage
life demands. So, yeah, for me, I understood
at that point really the importance of routine
in terms of, you know, keeping a family happy.
I also learned along the years that less is truly
more. I've always been organized, but certainly
there was a time in my life when I had much more
than I needed or that I own today. And the big
moment for me was when my son was around six
years old, because up to that point, I had kept
all his belongings, hoping for a second child.
One day I knew I had to face the music and that
I had to let go of the things, let go of my hope
for the future. And it was it was. carry but
at the same time I mean I find it was so liberating
because instead of always focusing about what
I didn't have a bigger family I could focus on
my little family and pour more time energy and
love into it and and for me that's really changed
my mindset towards our our belonging and I think
since then I've been trying my best to be intentional
about what I keep and what I bring into my life.
And I think that's all those experiences that,
you know, the peace of mind that has given me
the sense of control also, that has, you know,
wanting me to pass that on to other people, in
particular women, and help them. And that's how
my company was, you know, was created. Yeah.
12 years ago now. It's amazing. And you said
women are the probably main customers that you
see. And I know that you specialize in neurodivergent
women, which I think is really interesting. We
had a guest on here earlier this season talking
about working with ADHD women and kind of some
of the ways that she works with them in a psychological
sense. What are some of the ways that you work
with neurodiverse women? to use kind of home
organization and decluttering as a tool to help
them? Well, it's interesting because when I started,
I didn't really think at all about neurodivergent
individuals. But I think my philosophy and approach
resonated with them. Because since the beginning,
for me, it's been clear the client needs to be
involved in the process. I'm not the kind of
organizer who go to people home and going to
fix the problem. It's kind of a partnership.
You're the expert in your life. I'm the expert
in organizing. And it's only that together we
can create systems that you're going to be able
to maintain. And if we want that to happen, they
have to be based on your lifestyle, your needs,
your habits, but also on your way of thinking
and operating. And we know how neurodivergent
individuals are. can really think outside the
box. And this approach, I think, resonated with
them. And I got more and more clients, you know,
especially with ADHD, autism and OCD. But I mean,
maybe to answer your questions more concretely,
when I work with someone who is neurodivergent,
I'm really going to make sure that I break down
the project in tiny little steps so that they
can stay focused. So when we organize a space,
typically we're going to start categorizing the
items, then looking at each category and decluttering,
and then we're going to organize. And sometimes
for the neurotypical individual, we can do that.
you know concurrently but for the neurodivergent
definitely these are steps that needs to be done
separately so so that they can stay focused and
sometimes i kind of like to play games you know
if the client is up to it of giving them 15 minutes
or 45 minutes when they're going to be you know
doing on categorizing the items so that they
can stay focused And there is a lot about also
providing accountability to this group of people.
I run a clutter support group online for a small
groups of women where we meet once a week for
a period of one month. And everyone comes with
their project or task. And then I'm going to
give them some tips. But most importantly, they're
going to get accountability before they show
up next week. You know what they want to do.
And then they're going to get, you know. And
this is very powerful again for the ADHD community.
And another thing that I will do with them as
well is also the body doubling. Sometimes just
having someone by your side. And that's just
there while the person is doing the things can
be just enough to keep the person going. And
I do that during my session with clients, but
also I do that online. So, again, group of people
who come in and, you know, just for an hour,
everyone will decide what they're going to work
on and everybody goes their own way. But just
knowing that there is someone next to them, it
makes such a difference. So that's the kind of.
you know, things I will use for my neurodivergent
client. But really my approach is, you know,
the baseline that I use with them is something
that I use with all of my clients, really. So
I saw this, I think it was a meme, is that the
right word? Where it was like, someone's like,
right, I'm going to go and organise everything.
And then they take out everything from their
closet, chuck it on the floor. And then it's
like. oh crap this is too overwhelming I can't
do it do you find that people get into that situation
and then it's like it just makes more of a mess
and they can't get back into doing it is that
when you would use the little sort of little
snippets to sort of get them to to help organize
their closet or whatever it is that they're trying
to organize yes completely I think you know sometimes
you know, I give a talk or, you know, and people
say, oh, I'm so inspired. I'm going to go and
I'm going to do it all now. And yes, I have to
warn them to be very careful about that. And
it's quite often, you know, you take the stuff
out, you might start dealing with it. But, you
know, you reach a point where you have so much.
stuff to confront you reach decision fatigue
and as you said either you're gonna stop and
push things along the way and that's you know
the situation you're sharing or in some cases
people can actually push forward and then regret
decision you know further further down when i
work with a client i work for typically three
hours and one of my role is really to observe
how they're dealing and i'm always very careful
even if they say We want to reorganize the whole
wardrobe. I'm going to start with, you know,
maybe the clothes that are hanging or maybe even
if it's... big, big collection. I might even
take a category and see how they're going through
the process. And everyone is different. Some
people are extremely decisive and they go so
fast, but some need the time to process. And
for me, it's important that I respect, you know,
the speed they need to go. So that's my role
to make sure that they can deal with the amount
of stuff that we are taking out, that we process
them, and then that we put them back in, in a
more organized way. can't leave a client with
stuff on the floor. But yeah, that's very difficult
sometimes to manage on your own. And for me,
it's better to actually do it by, you know, even
15 minutes a day or half an hour, provide more
success and, you know, being able to stay focused.
So you need to be, you know, to really say, maybe
I'm going to start with a drawer or, you know,
looking at how much time you can focus on that.
Tell my clients, try to end on a positive note,
you know, try to stop. before you get bored,
because then if you stop on a high, you're going
to want to go back and do it again. And so I
think it's better to do that, you know, 15 minutes,
30 minutes, you know, a day or, you know, one
hour, twice a week or something like that, whatever
fits your schedule. Maybe even block the time
in your diary so that you get a better chance
of being done. And then, you know, doing that
on a regular basis and also rewarding yourself.
you know, in the process. Always about that.
Yeah, because quite often we wait, you know,
to have achieved, you know, the final outcome
that we visualize. And sometimes, you know, it
can take some time. And so try to reward yourself
every time you've done what you're supposed to
do. I had a client, she had engaged me many years
ago. She wanted to create a photo book for her
son when he was graduating from high school.
high school before he goes to uni and she had
30 000 pictures on the computer on several devices
actually so we came up with a with a plan to
do that and she said that she will be doing that
half an hour every night before dinner while
her son was working you know studying and after
that she will go and get a glass of wine so i
mean i don't want to encourage drinking but you
know whether one yeah you know it's your plasticity
isn't it you reward yourself then you want to
go back to doing it again exactly that habit's
going to get built yes i wonder what would happen
there once you completed it it's like What do
I do with my time? How do I get my glass of wine?
Exactly. Yeah. It's like the mouse, you know,
getting the cheese. It's like, I still want the
cheese, but like, how do I, my experiments are
worse. What do I do? But that's such a great,
you know, breaking into small chunks. Again,
this is something that I think anyone who's worked
with habits or lifestyle changes, it's like,
it always is better, something small and repeatable
than something grand scale and once. On this,
I want to talk a bit about perfectionism because
especially as women, you know, we tend to think
that it's all or nothing, you know, approach.
So I see so many people who don't want to start
because they're just waiting for the perfect
time and it never comes. Or they just, you know,
want the perfect outcome. And we are influenced
so much by Pinterest or Instagram, where you
see those pantries with the food decanted in,
you know, matching. I've bought those spices.
uh not the racks the spice bottles but i haven't
can't your spices into but i haven't done it
yet yeah yeah no exactly so i mean that looks
beautiful or the wardrobe with you know color
coded. And, you know, I can understand the need
to aspire to that. That might be actually preventing
you from taking action. Again, it's about starting,
establishing something, learning out of it, you
know, and then improving upon it. And sometimes,
actually, you can achieve even much more than
what you had anticipated. You know, I went through
it personally with, you know, with my books,
which was something that was for me very difficult.
difficult to let go of. But again, I started
the process. I think it took me five years at
the total to declutter my bookshelf. I went through
several iterations. But at the end, now I don't
keep any books. and i sold the bookshelves and
if you had told me that was you know uh what
i would you know achieve at the end it would
have been too scary i would never had started
but by going you know through those uh uh progressive
step i made it happen like like this yes and
i've seen clients you know going through the
same process as well i had some clients who went
down the minimalist life and downsized you know
from a very large home to An HDB flat, when the
husband lost the job, they were so happy not
to have that financial burden. Well, that's what
I actually wanted to talk to you about, right?
Was like, I think we talked about when is it
not the right time to declutter, right? You know,
like when is it maybe too soon or too much or
whatever. But are there certain unexpected transitions
that actually do set the stage for the perfect
time to declutter? So like a move might be one
of those times. My parents are doing that right
now. They're moving from, they're actually moving
from a condo to a house, which sounds... like
it would be the opposite direction but but really
it's not it's about the same you know size so
they're they're going through a decluttering
process um my brother recently lost his wife
and so you know he's going through his sort of
kind of emotional decluttering of her belongings
and what to do with that side of the house and
everything are there unexpected transitions like
that where it's like it actually kicks you into
gear and it's like wait now now's the time there
are definitely some times that are good you know
catalysts to uh to declutter some of them being
For some people, some are unplanned. So yes,
a move, downsizing also can be a reason. It can
be a change in your family size. It can be arrival
of a new baby. A lot of women, you have this
nesting instinct of making the space calm and
unorganized. But it also can be when the child
leave for uni. I went through this myself three
years ago, kind of want to reclaim your space.
But also, most importantly, to... Embrace, you
know, a new chapter in your life. I mean, all
of these are kind of planned, but sometimes you
might have to sell your house and people are
going to declutter because they want to make,
you know, their home look the best and get more
money out of it. Sometimes it's when you have
to spend more time at home, maybe because of
retirement, maybe because of, you know, working
from home. It could be when you get married as
well, when you're going to merge too. households,
you know, everything. Yes. And you have to go
through things. And then, you know, it's kind
of almost a challenge to, you know, build a relationship
building, you know, in selecting what you're
going to keep and embrace this new life. Sometimes
it can be also, you know, health issues, you
know, allergies, respiratory problem, because,
you know, You know, a cluttered home is difficult
to clean. You just go around things. And I've
seen, you know, people who went into this because
of health issues as well. I hadn't even thought
about that last one, but that makes total sense.
You know, the accumulation of everything, including
dust and allergens. Are there red flags? So again,
I don't use the term hoarder either. I think
it's really derogatory and I don't love it. Are
there red flags that you see in particular clients
or just that you've observed in like this is
a tendency that down the line may result in having
a home that is almost, you know, I get what I
take from the hoarder experience, right? Is that
like the clutter is kind of affecting your relationships
and health and stuff like that. So are the red
flags where it's like, oh, that person might
be on the path, might be on the path. One that
I always think of is collections. People who
collect. figurines and doodads, you know, I'm
always like, that's like a gateway to the hoarding.
I don't know. What do you think? Hoarding is
really a mental condition and, you know, it does
affect two to five percent of the population.
That's quite a lot, actually. It's quite a lot,
yes. I mean, there is a task force actually that
has been set up in Singapore to look into this
issue. It's a very complex, definitely, issue,
but not everyone is, you know, fit into that
category. But certainly I see people, you know,
with... can have a very high level of of clutter
and uh yes some signs that you might want to
to look into is you know people who start talking
about moving to a bigger home or start to You
know, consider putting things in self -storage
boxes, you know, and it's just because of the
accumulation of stuff. When you have a room that's
not used for its intended purpose, such as, you
know, the guest room that's used as a storeroom.
Yeah, I mean, a lot of people can relate to that.
It can be, I see also people who claim they are
organizing, but actually they're just moving
the stuff from one place to the other. in the
home, nothing will go out. They buy actually
a lot of storage boxes to put the stuff in and
things that, you know, it's contained, it's organized.
So that's also kind of a sign. I think it's,
you know, when it affects the, there is a lot
of struggle, a lot of, you know, arguments at
home about the clutter. Yeah, these are, you
know, red flags that it might occur. accumulate
overnight i think also our parents you know i
think we they used to pass their things to their
children but now today the children don't want
you know their parent things and when you hear
i hear sometimes people saying oh i'm gonna keep
that for my children or my grandchildren you
know it's unlikely they're gonna be interested
and um I'm not sure whether you heard about the
concept of, you know, death cleaning. Oh, death
cleaning? Death cleaning. There's a such a thing
that's actually, there's a book that has been
written about this concept. I think she's a Swedish
lady. But basically, the idea is actually to
take a good look at, you know, at your life and
the legacy you want to leave behind and to declutter
before pass on so that you're not a burden for
your children. I actually experienced that. myself
because I lost both my parents very suddenly
and my father was the first one to pass 10 years
ago and he had left a garage full of you know
40 years of accumulation And, you know, I find
myself to that point to, you know, to deal with
the emotional loss, the grief. But I also had
to help my mom, you know, declutter this garage.
And it took me three summers about, you know,
up to a week decluttering and organizing. And
it was so tough because it was, you know, things
I had no idea, some junk. But it brings still
a lot of emotion. And for me, I made myself the
promise at that point. I never been cluttered,
but I would really, you know, be mindful of what
I keep because I have only one child and when
I pass, I don't want to be, you know, to give
him that burden, you know, of the stuff. Yeah,
you have to be quite self -aware. Sometimes we
are not. And that's why we need to guide the
discussion very carefully when you start recognizing
those signs, you know. we were talking about
so we talk about that in the health form you
know like we don't want to be a burden on our
kids because we want to be healthy up until we're
not and then basically you know don't need to
be around because I think what is the point of
life if you can't do things for yourself but
I never thought about all the stuff That is a
mental burden. And actually our next guest who
we're going to be interviewing, she had to go
through that at 29. Her father passed away when
she was younger. Her mother had a stroke and
she went through this phase. I think it was a
whole year of decluttering what her mother had
accumulated. And to think about that as a mental
struggle. It's tough. It's a lot, isn't it? Oh,
it's so much. Yeah. I also had a girlfriend lost
both parents very suddenly as well. And then
had to basically, you know, like, like she was
still in the process of decluttering from the
first parents passing when the second one passed,
you know, that kind of thing. And it was just,
you know, and it's also very lonely. You know,
can we talk about the fact that like when the
person's not there, but you're over around all
their stuff, how almost ghostly that can feel
ghastly. Not sure if that's the right word. Yeah,
there's just a lot in there. Yeah, it's an extremely
tough situation for sure. So, yeah, if we can
do anything to anticipate that, I mean, sometimes,
you know, in the case of unexpected loss, you're
never prepared for that. But yeah, that's the
reality. It's tough. On that very high note,
Natalie, we are coming to the end of our time.
And I do want to ask you something that we ask
every single guest sitting in this chair on the
40s Formula, which is, What is your 40s formula?
What is the advice, given your profession, that
you can give to us women in our 40s to help us
thrive through this decade? I mean, obviously,
it's going to have to be about letting go. I
think for me, it's really about releasing what
doesn't support. our life at this point of time
so whether it's about decluttering our homes
but also you know really evaluating all our commitments
as well and being very intentional about what
we keep and what we bring into into our space
and our lives and then then you can make use
of that you know newfound time energy uh mental
clarity to really um you know pursue you what
brings you joy and meaning in your life. That's
beautiful. Let go and make space. Yes. It sounds
so appealing to all of us. So thank you so much
for being with us here on The 40s Formula. Natalie,
you have given us so many great tips and we really
appreciate you coming. Thank you. I really was
a pleasure to be talking to the two of you. Guys,
you know we love coffee. And if you want to show
us some love, you know, you can always get us
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