WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.419 As women, we do take on a lot, you know, we think, 00:00:02.439 --> 00:00:05.559 oh, I'll just do it myself. And I think this 00:00:05.559 --> 00:00:09.119 is how they get into this sort of burnout, extra 00:00:09.119 --> 00:00:11.980 stress mode. You hit the nail on the head. We 00:00:11.980 --> 00:00:16.039 kind of think we're larger than life and indispensable 00:00:16.039 --> 00:00:19.219 and, you know, won't get done unless we do it. 00:00:19.879 --> 00:00:22.780 But again, it's a world we keep spinning and 00:00:22.780 --> 00:00:25.280 nothing will change, right? We're a mere speck. 00:00:25.710 --> 00:00:29.170 an assembly of atoms that will just go back to 00:00:29.170 --> 00:00:33.570 the same, you know, atom particles in a totally 00:00:33.570 --> 00:00:35.549 different shape when we're gone. And there's 00:00:35.549 --> 00:00:39.070 nothing there, right? If we look at the Earth 00:00:39.070 --> 00:00:42.890 or the entire galaxy or, you know, all the assembly 00:00:42.890 --> 00:00:45.390 of planets, there's nothing there. It's just 00:00:45.390 --> 00:01:04.790 a spec. Hello and welcome to the 40s Formula, 00:01:05.069 --> 00:01:07.209 your go -to place for insightful discussions 00:01:07.209 --> 00:01:10.409 on navigating your 40s and thriving in this transformative 00:01:10.409 --> 00:01:13.670 decade. We're your hosts, Amanda and Jasmine, 00:01:13.870 --> 00:01:15.569 two women that are passionate about exploring 00:01:15.569 --> 00:01:17.469 the challenges and adventures that come with 00:01:17.469 --> 00:01:28.590 turning 40 and what lies ahead. Dr. Melina Supaya 00:01:28.590 --> 00:01:30.909 is the Chief of Learning and Culture at the Sauer 00:01:30.909 --> 00:01:33.670 Foundation. In her previous role, she was a Chief 00:01:33.670 --> 00:01:35.769 Wellbeing Officer at the National University 00:01:35.769 --> 00:01:38.769 Health System, focused on supporting and enhancing 00:01:38.769 --> 00:01:40.969 the mental, physical and emotional health of 00:01:40.969 --> 00:01:44.750 16 ,000 employees. Dr. Supaya was the Administrative 00:01:44.750 --> 00:01:47.230 Director for Clinical Education for eight years, 00:01:47.349 --> 00:01:49.469 whilst holding an appointment of Adjunct Assistant 00:01:49.469 --> 00:01:53.310 Professor at the NUS School of Medicine. A certified 00:01:53.310 --> 00:01:55.689 facilitator of mindfulness -based stress reduction, 00:01:56.010 --> 00:01:58.370 she has worked closely with health care professionals 00:01:58.370 --> 00:02:00.909 and students to enhance resilience and combat 00:02:00.909 --> 00:02:03.790 burnout. Her extensive work experience spans 00:02:03.790 --> 00:02:07.349 over 36 years across six countries, encompassing 00:02:07.349 --> 00:02:09.750 diverse roles in food security and food science, 00:02:09.870 --> 00:02:13.099 education and health care. Today we're going 00:02:13.099 --> 00:02:15.319 to be looking at a topic that affects so many 00:02:15.319 --> 00:02:17.759 women and that topic is workplace well -being. 00:02:17.879 --> 00:02:21.300 Now many women of our age are balancing a family, 00:02:21.479 --> 00:02:24.080 might have a demanding career, caregiver responsibilities 00:02:24.080 --> 00:02:26.740 and could be going through the dreaded menopause 00:02:26.740 --> 00:02:30.219 and all of this can be such a challenge especially 00:02:30.219 --> 00:02:35.849 if you are working all day long. So what We are 00:02:35.849 --> 00:02:38.689 going to be talking about today is how can we 00:02:38.689 --> 00:02:42.430 better manage our health and well -being whilst 00:02:42.430 --> 00:02:46.430 at work. And to do that, we have got Dr. Melina 00:02:46.430 --> 00:02:49.509 Supaya with us today on the 40s Formula. Welcome. 00:02:49.909 --> 00:02:51.990 Good morning. Thank you for having me. Thank 00:02:51.990 --> 00:02:54.050 you for joining us. We're so excited to have 00:02:54.050 --> 00:02:56.289 you here with us and share your expertise. So 00:02:56.289 --> 00:02:58.610 Melina, let's just go straight into it. What 00:02:58.610 --> 00:03:01.270 do you think are the biggest challenges that 00:03:01.270 --> 00:03:05.009 women face in the workplace today? it would be 00:03:05.009 --> 00:03:09.710 the same problems that men face with a different 00:03:09.710 --> 00:03:15.310 sort of angle to it at different ages perhaps 00:03:15.310 --> 00:03:19.990 in our 20s and 30s we might be setting up a family 00:03:19.990 --> 00:03:24.969 or even into our 40s maturing into our work demands 00:03:24.969 --> 00:03:28.719 like managerial level or leadership level So 00:03:28.719 --> 00:03:31.039 the stressors are slightly different, perhaps. 00:03:31.340 --> 00:03:33.780 Finding that balance is not going to be easy 00:03:33.780 --> 00:03:37.879 at any age. As you mentioned, as we grow into 00:03:37.879 --> 00:03:41.500 our latter years, we become caregivers as well. 00:03:41.740 --> 00:03:44.300 Some are less fortunate. They may be caregivers 00:03:44.300 --> 00:03:47.180 earlier on if you've got special needs children. 00:03:47.819 --> 00:03:51.180 There's no sort of blanket rule for everyone. 00:03:51.379 --> 00:03:54.560 A supportive workplace would be the answer. And 00:03:54.560 --> 00:03:59.469 that, again, for any age, any gender, And that 00:03:59.469 --> 00:04:04.310 that is the magic formula, I think, being heard, 00:04:04.689 --> 00:04:11.870 being respected and valued, whatever difficulties 00:04:11.870 --> 00:04:14.349 we may be facing. When you were talking about 00:04:14.349 --> 00:04:16.129 kind of the balance and the supportive workplace, 00:04:16.410 --> 00:04:19.290 I have a client right now who she's struggling 00:04:19.290 --> 00:04:22.149 to find time to work out, to exercise. And she's 00:04:22.149 --> 00:04:24.649 like, you know, I'm at the office from 10 a .m. 00:04:25.000 --> 00:04:27.779 or at the office or on calls from 10 a .m. to 00:04:27.779 --> 00:04:31.759 10 p .m. And my initial gut reaction is, you 00:04:31.759 --> 00:04:34.519 have to set a boundary there. Is it reasonable 00:04:34.519 --> 00:04:37.019 to be in an office or on a call for 12 hours 00:04:37.019 --> 00:04:39.600 of a day if you have small kids at home? I mean, 00:04:39.600 --> 00:04:40.980 it doesn't even matter if you just have a life 00:04:40.980 --> 00:04:43.860 outside of work. How do you advise that women 00:04:43.860 --> 00:04:47.480 in these situations set boundaries? It's really 00:04:47.480 --> 00:04:51.160 not easy. Depends on what the expectations are. 00:04:51.660 --> 00:04:54.660 flexible work arrangements and all the things 00:04:54.660 --> 00:04:58.939 that we suddenly found were available um i think 00:04:58.939 --> 00:05:02.500 we need to keep on that trend and try and work 00:05:02.500 --> 00:05:04.860 something out where people still have breaks 00:05:04.860 --> 00:05:09.279 just take a break and enjoy your meal or or listen 00:05:09.279 --> 00:05:12.980 to a podcast you know wonderful things that re 00:05:12.980 --> 00:05:18.420 -energize and recharge there is um a saying you 00:05:18.420 --> 00:05:22.509 know sitting is the new smoking It's not actually 00:05:22.509 --> 00:05:26.129 that, but the sense is we spend too many hours 00:05:26.129 --> 00:05:30.610 sitting and 12 hours in a stretch is definitely 00:05:30.610 --> 00:05:33.529 not good for us. You know, maybe have a conversation 00:05:33.529 --> 00:05:37.629 with the boss and colleagues as to how we're 00:05:37.629 --> 00:05:40.769 going to work and be very honest and say, I need 00:05:40.769 --> 00:05:45.430 some time to exercise because I'm most productive 00:05:45.430 --> 00:05:49.449 at work when I'm well. And I need to do this. 00:05:49.509 --> 00:05:51.850 But I think that statement in itself is somewhat 00:05:51.850 --> 00:05:54.389 revolutionary to actually face your boss and 00:05:54.389 --> 00:05:57.149 say, I need to prioritize my wellness. I need 00:05:57.149 --> 00:05:59.350 to take a break in the day and exercise. Yeah, 00:05:59.350 --> 00:06:01.189 no, because I think that what will happen is 00:06:01.189 --> 00:06:03.670 people think if I speak up, if I say something, 00:06:03.750 --> 00:06:06.829 that's going to hinder my career progress. And 00:06:06.829 --> 00:06:10.230 how can someone have the courage or the means 00:06:10.230 --> 00:06:13.670 to say something like that when, you know, they 00:06:13.670 --> 00:06:17.920 might. get overlooked for a promotion or some 00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:22.160 other opportunity where a man doing the job might 00:06:22.160 --> 00:06:25.699 be favoured because he's not going to say, oh, 00:06:25.740 --> 00:06:29.160 I need to do this or I need to look after my 00:06:29.160 --> 00:06:31.699 kids. Do you think that we see these types of 00:06:31.699 --> 00:06:34.740 challenges as well? Perhaps in the number of 00:06:34.740 --> 00:06:39.720 hours spent. But we're not counting beans, right? 00:06:39.939 --> 00:06:44.410 At work, we're looking at... the outcomes so 00:06:44.410 --> 00:06:49.930 maybe if we sit down to say these are the things 00:06:49.930 --> 00:06:54.269 i need to achieve to the quality that is required 00:06:54.269 --> 00:06:58.009 of me within this time frame or this timeline 00:06:58.009 --> 00:07:03.310 if i can do it whilst i do other things is that 00:07:03.310 --> 00:07:07.589 going to be okay it's still going to be 45 or 00:07:07.589 --> 00:07:11.879 40 whatever how many ever hours a week But if 00:07:11.879 --> 00:07:15.079 the outcomes are more than satisfactory, then 00:07:15.079 --> 00:07:17.480 the person should be allowed to do what they 00:07:17.480 --> 00:07:22.000 need to do. And that sort of flexibility, whether 00:07:22.000 --> 00:07:28.600 it's time, the type of enthusiasm and energy, 00:07:28.759 --> 00:07:34.120 because sitting for 12 hours drains you. You're 00:07:34.120 --> 00:07:35.959 not producing your best work. We have to be honest 00:07:35.959 --> 00:07:38.699 there, right? At some point in that 12 hours, 00:07:38.759 --> 00:07:41.589 there's diminishing returns. Yeah. And I think 00:07:41.589 --> 00:07:46.110 the very, very extreme would be people who drop 00:07:46.110 --> 00:07:50.009 dead at their deaths from exhaustion. Maybe Japan, 00:07:50.230 --> 00:07:52.709 Korea. I'm naming countries that I've heard of 00:07:52.709 --> 00:07:55.790 such phenomena. Why do something that's really 00:07:55.790 --> 00:07:57.990 not good for you? Did you see that Straits Times 00:07:57.990 --> 00:08:00.329 article that recently came out? No, I didn't. 00:08:00.329 --> 00:08:02.810 Singapore, I believe, is the third, and you guys 00:08:02.810 --> 00:08:05.389 can double check me on this, the third most tired 00:08:05.389 --> 00:08:09.430 nation. Oh, OK. So it was like a self -rated 00:08:09.430 --> 00:08:11.110 fatigue scale of something, you know, it was 00:08:11.110 --> 00:08:13.269 like a validated scale. OK. But I want to say 00:08:13.269 --> 00:08:15.790 Singapore was the third most tired country or 00:08:15.790 --> 00:08:18.550 possibly even higher. But yeah, I mean, it's 00:08:18.550 --> 00:08:21.889 like people here are reporting extreme fatigue. 00:08:22.050 --> 00:08:24.209 Yes. And I think overwork is one of those reasons. 00:08:24.269 --> 00:08:28.110 Yes. I didn't know about the fatigue report. 00:08:30.649 --> 00:08:33.250 But I've heard several times about being the 00:08:33.250 --> 00:08:37.789 most sleep deprived country. Sort of matches, 00:08:38.289 --> 00:08:42.070 right? But it's also a country where, unless 00:08:42.070 --> 00:08:45.490 it's changed in the last few months, the highest 00:08:45.490 --> 00:08:49.110 number of amputations. And you're going to ask 00:08:49.110 --> 00:08:52.720 why? For diabetics? Correct. is that specifically 00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:57.200 diabetes related i think because um badly managed 00:08:57.200 --> 00:09:01.080 diabetes leads to gangren i'm shortening the 00:09:01.080 --> 00:09:04.139 whole journey right a healthy lifestyle includes 00:09:04.139 --> 00:09:08.139 movement includes you know having time to have 00:09:08.139 --> 00:09:11.440 proper nutrition because if you're stuck sitting 00:09:11.440 --> 00:09:15.210 for a long time you can't even get up and fix 00:09:15.210 --> 00:09:18.509 yourself a nutritious salad or you know fried 00:09:18.509 --> 00:09:20.850 egg or something right it's going to be a packet 00:09:20.850 --> 00:09:23.409 of crisps or whatever arrives on your doorstep 00:09:23.409 --> 00:09:27.009 yeah yeah or tons of coke right because it's 00:09:27.009 --> 00:09:30.830 gonna get your energy levels up uh and and keep 00:09:30.830 --> 00:09:33.610 you all alert and awake but for how long right 00:09:33.610 --> 00:09:36.690 it's a snowball and so you know this just goes 00:09:36.690 --> 00:09:40.000 back to productivity at work is the same as being 00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:41.960 productive at home and being productive in your 00:09:41.960 --> 00:09:44.620 general day -to -day life. You need to not only 00:09:44.620 --> 00:09:46.879 eat well, you need to move, you need to incorporate 00:09:46.879 --> 00:09:49.899 all of these things in. And then going back to 00:09:49.899 --> 00:09:52.080 reports, there was another report by Deloitte 00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:55.059 who did a women at work report last year. And 00:09:55.059 --> 00:09:58.340 that report actually highlighted that stress 00:09:58.340 --> 00:10:01.340 levels are going up and there are higher rates 00:10:01.340 --> 00:10:05.080 of burnout. This report was worldwide? Yes. So 00:10:05.080 --> 00:10:08.039 it was like a worldwide women at work report 00:10:08.039 --> 00:10:10.539 that they interviewed women across different 00:10:10.539 --> 00:10:14.779 sectors, different countries. And it's interesting 00:10:14.779 --> 00:10:16.700 because you would have expected that some of 00:10:16.700 --> 00:10:19.559 the things that happened over COVID where you 00:10:19.559 --> 00:10:21.860 do get more sort of flexible working arrangements, 00:10:22.139 --> 00:10:24.840 they seem to be sort of fizzling out now. Do 00:10:24.840 --> 00:10:27.860 you think that's kind of the case? And what can 00:10:27.860 --> 00:10:32.840 people do to try to help reduce? this stress 00:10:32.840 --> 00:10:35.399 and anxiety that they've got around working. 00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:38.820 Again, it boils down to the culture at work, 00:10:38.940 --> 00:10:43.299 right? Beyond looking at policies, HR policies 00:10:43.299 --> 00:10:45.720 of, you know, how many hours we need to work 00:10:45.720 --> 00:10:49.820 and we need to look at engagement, what drives 00:10:49.820 --> 00:10:55.500 people, what satisfaction, fulfilment. They're 00:10:55.500 --> 00:10:59.039 very big words, but, you know, happiness is a 00:10:59.039 --> 00:11:03.629 concept. That is elusive, perhaps, but a lot 00:11:03.629 --> 00:11:07.929 of it boils down to meaning and purpose, right? 00:11:08.029 --> 00:11:11.509 Is it meaningful for me to be a robot and do 00:11:11.509 --> 00:11:14.909 these hours just for the sake of it? Is it meaningful 00:11:14.909 --> 00:11:19.629 for me to feel awful when I can't attend my children's 00:11:19.629 --> 00:11:22.750 important moments, whether at school, at home 00:11:22.750 --> 00:11:26.200 or when they're sick, to just say. I'm so sorry, 00:11:26.259 --> 00:11:28.179 you know, you're going to get the care without 00:11:28.179 --> 00:11:32.019 mummy or without daddy because I've got other 00:11:32.019 --> 00:11:37.220 priorities. So being able to prioritise and then 00:11:37.220 --> 00:11:40.379 having a chat about it in the workplace and again, 00:11:40.419 --> 00:11:44.240 include colleagues because we're not alone and 00:11:44.240 --> 00:11:47.559 the single voice might not be heard, but as a 00:11:47.559 --> 00:11:50.830 collective. That that may be more effective, 00:11:51.090 --> 00:11:53.490 I think. I think that's a great tip. Yeah, because 00:11:53.490 --> 00:11:55.610 exactly what you mentioned, you know, I do think 00:11:55.610 --> 00:11:57.590 that, you know, if it's a single voice and a 00:11:57.590 --> 00:12:00.990 single female voice, it can sometimes be dismissed 00:12:00.990 --> 00:12:03.649 as, oh, it's just her problem. But if you get 00:12:03.649 --> 00:12:05.750 a mixed group, you know, mixed genders, mixed 00:12:05.750 --> 00:12:09.049 backgrounds, ages, you know, to say, no, we all 00:12:09.049 --> 00:12:11.470 need to prioritize this way. I think that is 00:12:11.470 --> 00:12:14.129 so much more powerful. I've had colleagues, male 00:12:14.129 --> 00:12:17.519 colleagues. who've said, you know, I'm either 00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:20.220 divorced or the only child, I'm not married, 00:12:20.360 --> 00:12:23.980 looking after my parents, and I need time off 00:12:23.980 --> 00:12:27.960 to take them for their medical visits, appointments, 00:12:28.279 --> 00:12:32.580 and I need to do this and do that. And so it 00:12:32.580 --> 00:12:36.019 cuts across different genders as well, I think. 00:12:36.350 --> 00:12:38.549 Amanda, you know we love the Meat Club, but you 00:12:38.549 --> 00:12:40.509 know what's even better than their premium ethically 00:12:40.509 --> 00:12:44.730 sourced meats? What's that? Getting $250 worth 00:12:44.730 --> 00:12:47.450 of your shopping for free. And that's exactly 00:12:47.450 --> 00:12:49.610 what we're going to be doing in our season five 00:12:49.610 --> 00:12:52.649 giveaway. All you have to do is show us the delicious 00:12:52.649 --> 00:12:55.090 meals that you make using the Meat Club products. 00:12:55.429 --> 00:12:58.840 Tag at the 40s formula. and at The Meat Club 00:12:58.840 --> 00:13:02.059 SG on Instagram or TikTok, and you stand a chance 00:13:02.059 --> 00:13:05.860 to win $250 worth of The Meat Club goodies. It 00:13:05.860 --> 00:13:08.299 can be a photo, a reel, and don't worry if your 00:13:08.299 --> 00:13:10.840 account's private, just drop us a DM and we'll 00:13:10.840 --> 00:13:13.259 count your entry. We'll be picking one lucky 00:13:13.259 --> 00:13:15.259 winner at the end of the season, so make sure 00:13:15.259 --> 00:13:17.740 to submit all those delicious meals before June 00:13:17.740 --> 00:13:19.799 5th. It's time to jump in the kitchen and get 00:13:19.799 --> 00:13:22.000 cooking, and we cannot wait to see what you make. 00:13:22.220 --> 00:13:24.320 For women who are in sort of managerial positions, 00:13:24.419 --> 00:13:27.429 or even just managers who might be male, What 00:13:27.429 --> 00:13:30.289 can they do to sort of help their colleagues 00:13:30.289 --> 00:13:35.029 or their employees to better manage stuff? Is 00:13:35.029 --> 00:13:37.690 there something that you can suggest that they 00:13:37.690 --> 00:13:41.070 can help to sort of implement and make a more 00:13:41.070 --> 00:13:45.769 productive or easier, better work culture? In 00:13:45.769 --> 00:13:49.529 a managerial role, we're sort of sandwiched between 00:13:49.529 --> 00:13:55.110 the leadership level. And then people that work 00:13:55.110 --> 00:13:57.330 with us, right? You kind of get this shit from 00:13:57.330 --> 00:14:00.070 both ends. Yeah, it's a tough one. I think so. 00:14:00.230 --> 00:14:02.929 One of the things would be, you know, very good 00:14:02.929 --> 00:14:07.750 listening skills. We tend to speak more than 00:14:07.750 --> 00:14:13.090 we listen. Not all, but generally. But when we 00:14:13.090 --> 00:14:16.769 listen really carefully, what is needed? What 00:14:16.769 --> 00:14:21.269 is the feedback I'm getting? And act on it. And 00:14:21.269 --> 00:14:24.519 both ways, we might. be cascading things down 00:14:24.519 --> 00:14:27.019 from the top. You know, decisions are made and 00:14:27.019 --> 00:14:30.179 things have to run and this way and that. But 00:14:30.179 --> 00:14:33.159 from the ground up as well, the listening to 00:14:33.159 --> 00:14:37.840 what people not can or can't do, but how to be 00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:41.000 their best selves when they show up. Right. And 00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:44.919 that's not too much to ask. It's not like they're 00:14:44.919 --> 00:14:47.340 not going to do it, but we can do it much better 00:14:47.340 --> 00:14:51.139 if we had this, that and the other within reason, 00:14:51.379 --> 00:14:54.669 not. unreasonable requests or demands, right? 00:14:54.830 --> 00:14:59.850 So stress is a natural response from, you know, 00:14:59.850 --> 00:15:03.570 even animals as well. It's a survival thing and 00:15:03.570 --> 00:15:06.850 we need a certain amount of stress, right? Butt 00:15:06.850 --> 00:15:11.909 kicked just so that we get there. And it builds 00:15:11.909 --> 00:15:15.690 our resilience because we were totally unstressed. 00:15:16.120 --> 00:15:18.659 There would be no response, you know. Just be 00:15:18.659 --> 00:15:22.159 lying there, not moving. Flight freeze, right? 00:15:22.259 --> 00:15:26.779 So stress, prolonged stress, our adrenaline, 00:15:27.059 --> 00:15:30.279 cortisol levels are extremely high in the bloodstream 00:15:30.279 --> 00:15:36.039 and that's not good for us. So maybe saying that 00:15:36.039 --> 00:15:39.019 stress for a little while is good. But after 00:15:39.019 --> 00:15:41.799 that, support as in colleagues, could you take 00:15:41.799 --> 00:15:44.399 over this? I'm just going to have a break. When 00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:48.080 I was working in the hospitals for many, many 00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:51.440 years, we used to run a program. And in the emergency 00:15:51.440 --> 00:15:54.539 department, for example, it's one way. The doors 00:15:54.539 --> 00:15:56.899 open, they keep coming in, they keep coming in, 00:15:56.980 --> 00:16:00.080 right? Everything from cough and calls to serious 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:04.379 car accidents, right? So there's trauma. And 00:16:04.379 --> 00:16:08.409 they're all having to do triage, right? very 00:16:08.409 --> 00:16:11.970 very urgent and important to do now and serious 00:16:11.970 --> 00:16:16.090 and what's less we sort of help the staff whether 00:16:16.090 --> 00:16:19.490 they were doctors and nurses on a very your shift 00:16:19.490 --> 00:16:22.169 becomes very long right because it's very intense 00:16:22.169 --> 00:16:25.610 to just say i need five minutes i'm going to 00:16:25.610 --> 00:16:29.710 step out and have a breather just cover me the 00:16:29.710 --> 00:16:31.850 world's not going to collapse because i'm out 00:16:31.850 --> 00:16:37.240 but that communication to say i need this My 00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:40.059 husband was that doctor. So he was in ED for 00:16:40.059 --> 00:16:42.120 the entire, you know, before we started our clinic, 00:16:42.200 --> 00:16:44.860 that's what he did. And you're absolutely right. 00:16:45.179 --> 00:16:49.059 Just to say, I just need to go outside, take 00:16:49.059 --> 00:16:51.419 a deep breath, potentially close my eyes, you 00:16:51.419 --> 00:16:53.419 know, because obviously it's very visually stimulating 00:16:53.419 --> 00:16:55.159 as well to be working in the ED, right? You see 00:16:55.159 --> 00:16:57.240 things, things are presented to you. Let's put 00:16:57.240 --> 00:16:59.259 it that way. You don't get a choice. And, you 00:16:59.259 --> 00:17:01.220 know, to be empowered to say that is actually 00:17:01.220 --> 00:17:03.659 difficult, even for doctors. You'd think, oh, 00:17:03.679 --> 00:17:05.240 doctors, they can do whatever they want. That's 00:17:05.240 --> 00:17:08.930 not true. There's a very specific ranking and 00:17:08.930 --> 00:17:11.450 kind of way of interacting in that world as well, 00:17:11.529 --> 00:17:13.089 which you're very familiar with. It's a pecking 00:17:13.089 --> 00:17:15.450 order. That's a great way to say it, the pecking 00:17:15.450 --> 00:17:17.369 order. And so, you know, the underlings might 00:17:17.369 --> 00:17:18.849 not feel comfortable saying, hey, I just need 00:17:18.849 --> 00:17:21.150 five minutes, you know. And I think that that 00:17:21.150 --> 00:17:24.109 advice is good for doctor in the emergency room, 00:17:24.210 --> 00:17:26.789 equally to parent of three young children, for 00:17:26.789 --> 00:17:29.930 example. You have to be able to say even to your 00:17:29.930 --> 00:17:32.569 children, like, you know, mommy has been overstimulated 00:17:32.569 --> 00:17:35.480 for this morning. I need a moment to look at 00:17:35.480 --> 00:17:37.240 a book or, you know, take a breather and then, 00:17:37.259 --> 00:17:39.079 you know, let's play together again. I think 00:17:39.079 --> 00:17:41.579 that those boundaries are equal depending, no 00:17:41.579 --> 00:17:44.019 matter what the situation. And if you can't step 00:17:44.019 --> 00:17:46.279 out, right, because it's COVID and we're all 00:17:46.279 --> 00:17:48.900 gowned up, for example, you know, close your 00:17:48.900 --> 00:17:52.380 eyes and people hate the word meditation, like, 00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:55.480 oh, what's that stuff again? Have a mindful moment. 00:17:55.599 --> 00:17:58.980 As you said, breathe, right? And just take stock. 00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:02.859 The levels of all those hormones that are overstimulating 00:18:02.859 --> 00:18:05.539 you for too long are just going to drop for a 00:18:05.539 --> 00:18:10.039 while and that is biologically proven right the 00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:13.660 parasympathetic nervous system kicks in and you're 00:18:13.660 --> 00:18:16.440 gonna just gonna be a little bit more relaxed 00:18:16.440 --> 00:18:19.019 it's not the right word but efficient rather 00:18:19.019 --> 00:18:22.359 than being on overdrive and then you know just 00:18:22.359 --> 00:18:25.049 burning out And I love what you said about how, 00:18:25.130 --> 00:18:26.349 like, even in the emergency department, it's 00:18:26.349 --> 00:18:27.910 like, it's like, you know, you can take five 00:18:27.910 --> 00:18:29.569 minutes. You know, nothing's going to, the world's 00:18:29.569 --> 00:18:31.049 not going to end. Where it's funny because I 00:18:31.049 --> 00:18:32.650 think people outside of that world would be like, 00:18:32.710 --> 00:18:34.930 that's an actual life or death situation. Like, 00:18:34.930 --> 00:18:37.069 if those people can take a break, I surely can 00:18:37.069 --> 00:18:39.150 take a break. Oh, yeah. On the flip side, I was 00:18:39.150 --> 00:18:41.529 speaking to a client yesterday who's going through 00:18:41.529 --> 00:18:43.230 a lot of work. She's saying it's a very busy 00:18:43.230 --> 00:18:49.230 period. And she is struggling to offload. And 00:18:49.230 --> 00:18:53.680 I guess. delegate to her employees because one 00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:56.180 she's worried that they can't do it as well as 00:18:56.180 --> 00:19:00.500 her and two she's also thinking that if I tell 00:19:00.500 --> 00:19:05.079 someone to do this I'm just gonna get that's 00:19:05.079 --> 00:19:08.680 not my job so what can women who are in that 00:19:08.680 --> 00:19:11.579 situation maybe not even women just people in 00:19:11.579 --> 00:19:14.579 that situation do because I do feel like as women 00:19:14.579 --> 00:19:17.259 we do take on a lot you know we think oh I'll 00:19:17.259 --> 00:19:20.119 just do it myself yeah and I think this is how 00:19:20.119 --> 00:19:23.670 they get into this sort of burnout extra stress 00:19:23.670 --> 00:19:26.670 mode you hit the nail on the head we kind of 00:19:26.670 --> 00:19:30.309 think we're larger than life and indispensable 00:19:30.309 --> 00:19:34.549 and you know won't get done unless we do it but 00:19:34.549 --> 00:19:37.269 again it's a world we keep spinning and nothing 00:19:37.269 --> 00:19:40.609 will change right we're a mere spec assembly 00:19:40.609 --> 00:19:44.630 of atoms that will just go back to the same you 00:19:44.630 --> 00:19:48.799 know atom particles in different in a totally 00:19:48.799 --> 00:19:51.019 different shape when we're gone and there's nothing 00:19:51.019 --> 00:19:54.460 nothing there right if we look at the earth or 00:19:54.460 --> 00:19:58.559 the entire galaxy or you know all the assembly 00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:01.160 of planets there's nothing there it's it's just 00:20:01.160 --> 00:20:07.279 a suspect and if we sort of zoom out into the 00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:10.880 intense moments that we're in and and just are 00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:13.400 able to say it's it's fine it's it's going to 00:20:13.400 --> 00:20:19.740 be all right um it's As we do that or when we 00:20:19.740 --> 00:20:22.539 take a break, I think the other part about communicating 00:20:22.539 --> 00:20:27.079 is it's always a two way thing and it needs to 00:20:27.079 --> 00:20:32.019 be cultural. That means we say it too. If any 00:20:32.019 --> 00:20:35.140 of you needs you're having a meltdown and, you 00:20:35.140 --> 00:20:37.799 know, just play with words. Right. It might be 00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:40.720 not a meltdown, but you just any of you need 00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:45.240 a break. Come to me. I'll cover you. Go do your 00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:49.279 thing. Because there are times when we need it. 00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:52.299 But if we keep saying it, people know you've 00:20:52.299 --> 00:20:55.359 got their backs. Right. Your kid's not well. 00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:59.740 You need to do this. Just go. Right. Next Saturday. 00:20:59.819 --> 00:21:02.640 Oh, you've got a shift. I'm not doing anything. 00:21:02.940 --> 00:21:06.900 Can I help? But in return, obviously, you know, 00:21:06.940 --> 00:21:12.720 it's reciprocal. Right. And that's the sort of 00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:16.680 culture. It's very. It's a community of people 00:21:16.680 --> 00:21:20.579 trying to get through the day at work, at home, 00:21:20.579 --> 00:21:24.160 in the neighborhood and in schools for parents, 00:21:24.319 --> 00:21:26.900 for teachers. You know, teachers are terribly 00:21:26.900 --> 00:21:30.019 stressed. Right. And I can imagine, Amanda, in 00:21:30.019 --> 00:21:33.140 the States where gun control. I know we're not 00:21:33.140 --> 00:21:34.920 going to get into that. But, you know, walking 00:21:34.920 --> 00:21:37.000 into school is like. Talk about that chronic 00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:39.599 low grade stress. Yeah. It's very different from 00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:42.700 Singapore. You can't help but think about that. 00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:46.930 Yeah. So. you know uh keep saying it yeah right 00:21:46.930 --> 00:21:49.849 and and display that behavior yeah because otherwise 00:21:49.849 --> 00:21:53.509 it would be very hypocritical like what i loved 00:21:53.509 --> 00:21:56.150 your analogy of you know being a tiny speck and 00:21:56.150 --> 00:21:58.349 sort of zooming out it reminded me i don't know 00:21:58.349 --> 00:21:59.829 if you've seen this movie it's going to show 00:21:59.829 --> 00:22:01.849 how old i am now but obviously everyone knows 00:22:01.849 --> 00:22:05.740 i'm in my 40s um men in black The first one, 00:22:05.779 --> 00:22:08.279 you know, when it was the galaxy was in Orion's 00:22:08.279 --> 00:22:10.700 belt and, you know, it was like Orion's belt, 00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:14.259 not in space, but, you know, on the cat's neck. 00:22:14.359 --> 00:22:18.220 Anyway, I digress. Women do tend to suffer from 00:22:18.220 --> 00:22:20.640 burnout a lot more than men. And I guess it is 00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:22.759 part of this responsibility that they tend to 00:22:22.759 --> 00:22:26.880 take on themselves. How can you recognise within 00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:30.799 yourself whether you are en route to burning 00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:33.910 out? Signs of burnout, either in the workplace 00:22:33.910 --> 00:22:39.769 or at home, are disengagement. So the classic 00:22:39.769 --> 00:22:44.910 burnout scale has three categories. One is depersonalization. 00:22:45.170 --> 00:22:48.829 The other is emotional exhaustion. And the third 00:22:48.829 --> 00:22:52.049 is personal accomplishment. So if you feel you're 00:22:52.049 --> 00:22:55.650 not accomplishing things, you're low on that, 00:22:55.769 --> 00:22:59.789 but you're high on emotional exhaustion and depersonalization, 00:23:00.029 --> 00:23:03.480 then you're... burnt out okay that disengagement 00:23:03.480 --> 00:23:06.720 comes from not being able to cope there's a short 00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:09.279 circuit and that that's it i'm just you know 00:23:09.279 --> 00:23:13.240 as a zombie now but just to snap out of it isn't 00:23:13.240 --> 00:23:17.339 easy um it can look like depression it can look 00:23:17.339 --> 00:23:20.720 like a form of anxiety as well where you just 00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:24.960 you know almost catatonic and not responding 00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:30.079 all the things that we do not have conversations 00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:33.279 about because it's highly stigmatized mental 00:23:33.279 --> 00:23:38.859 health. Seeing a therapist, having access with 00:23:38.859 --> 00:23:42.819 the if you've consulted a doctor to drugs. Right. 00:23:42.940 --> 00:23:45.740 It might be a chemical imbalance as well. That's 00:23:45.740 --> 00:23:48.740 something's going on. But, you know, different 00:23:48.740 --> 00:23:52.359 types of therapies, drugs, talk therapy, having 00:23:52.359 --> 00:23:55.619 a good rest, having good support around you. 00:23:56.170 --> 00:24:00.009 In the workplace, we had to design that where 00:24:00.009 --> 00:24:03.950 people take time off work and then reintegrate 00:24:03.950 --> 00:24:07.670 the workplace. So there are policies for that. 00:24:08.470 --> 00:24:12.109 We also had to get around the soft skills, the 00:24:12.109 --> 00:24:17.490 unseen. If person X goes off, then Z and Y take 00:24:17.490 --> 00:24:21.250 on their work. When they come back, there's a 00:24:21.250 --> 00:24:24.670 lot of resentment. Correct. So we have to manage 00:24:24.670 --> 00:24:27.599 that as well. And coming back doesn't mean they 00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:31.740 take on 100%. Sometimes the HR policies can say 00:24:31.740 --> 00:24:35.039 you come back at 50, bump it up to 70. If you 00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:38.000 feel that's not working, go back to 50 or less. 00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:41.460 But it's conversations that need to be had and 00:24:41.460 --> 00:24:45.380 the person has to feel supported and safe. But 00:24:45.380 --> 00:24:48.700 with enough understanding and judgment, I think 00:24:48.700 --> 00:24:52.859 we can make a call. You know, otherwise the person 00:24:52.859 --> 00:24:57.079 either leaves or just is very, very sick. And 00:24:57.079 --> 00:24:58.440 I mean, it's one of those things, you know, you're 00:24:58.440 --> 00:25:00.460 just mentioning like, OK, so let's say this very, 00:25:00.539 --> 00:25:03.140 very stressed person, you know, person X needs 00:25:03.140 --> 00:25:06.299 to take leave. And then, you know, Z and Y are 00:25:06.299 --> 00:25:07.940 taking over their responsibilities and then they 00:25:07.940 --> 00:25:12.500 come back. Is there a world where before X gets 00:25:12.500 --> 00:25:15.099 so stressed that they have to leave, that X, 00:25:15.099 --> 00:25:18.819 Y and Z all have a more flexible working arrangement 00:25:18.819 --> 00:25:21.430 where all three of them get a break? you know 00:25:21.430 --> 00:25:23.549 meaning like where everyone catches a break before 00:25:23.549 --> 00:25:25.809 one person burns out and then turns the other 00:25:25.809 --> 00:25:29.349 two into overdrive yes you know how do you design 00:25:29.349 --> 00:25:32.289 those workplaces those preventative workplaces 00:25:32.289 --> 00:25:35.410 would be the again the culture right what do 00:25:35.410 --> 00:25:38.349 i need to deliver how am i going to get there 00:25:38.349 --> 00:25:41.349 how do i do it with whom am i going to do it 00:25:41.349 --> 00:25:44.470 and have those conversations i will need twice 00:25:44.470 --> 00:25:47.289 a week to be able to get to the gym or twice 00:25:47.289 --> 00:25:52.259 a week to go for my you know, calligraphy or 00:25:52.259 --> 00:25:57.240 class or go for a walk. Right. And every six 00:25:57.240 --> 00:26:01.920 weeks I'm going to have, you know, a day off 00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:04.859 or two days off plus the weekend. It's something 00:26:04.859 --> 00:26:08.640 we need to design together. And that forms a 00:26:08.640 --> 00:26:11.579 certain workplace culture. If having done that 00:26:11.579 --> 00:26:15.279 productivity is low, people are not delivering, 00:26:15.559 --> 00:26:19.200 then we'll have to rethink and redesign. what 00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:22.000 we initially thought would work right so it's 00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:25.319 a work in progress it's going to be several iterations 00:26:25.319 --> 00:26:29.240 to get there and it will continue changing right 00:26:29.240 --> 00:26:33.700 whilst people's life's courses change they may 00:26:33.700 --> 00:26:37.920 be facing other issues if they find out that 00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:41.119 they've got an illness if they find out that 00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:45.119 a loved one has an illness or even grieving and 00:26:45.119 --> 00:26:48.640 loss right those those are times where people 00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:51.839 are just going to be not themselves uh and and 00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:55.319 you know we we roll with the punches we'll have 00:26:55.319 --> 00:26:59.220 several conversations as we need to i guess my 00:26:59.220 --> 00:27:01.740 brother's a great example of this he uh very 00:27:01.740 --> 00:27:04.519 suddenly very tragically lost his wife last year 00:27:04.519 --> 00:27:06.940 i'm sorry to hear that thank you and his workplace 00:27:06.940 --> 00:27:09.799 was incredible they could be the model for what 00:27:09.799 --> 00:27:12.359 a supportive environment looks like where you 00:27:12.359 --> 00:27:14.519 know he obviously delivered that news as suddenly 00:27:14.519 --> 00:27:17.779 as it occurred and they said don't worry Like 00:27:17.779 --> 00:27:21.859 from this day until the foreseeable future, you 00:27:21.859 --> 00:27:24.140 take as much time as you need, as much leave 00:27:24.140 --> 00:27:26.420 as you need. Don't check in. Don't wonder. Don't 00:27:26.420 --> 00:27:28.920 worry. It will be taken care of. And when you're 00:27:28.920 --> 00:27:31.279 ready to come back, because for my brother, his 00:27:31.279 --> 00:27:33.650 job is a great part of his identity. he wanted 00:27:33.650 --> 00:27:35.150 to come back right so they said when you're ready 00:27:35.150 --> 00:27:37.170 to come back you come right back in your job 00:27:37.170 --> 00:27:39.390 is here your team is here and that's exactly 00:27:39.390 --> 00:27:41.490 how it went by the way he returned to work about 00:27:41.490 --> 00:27:43.869 uh three or four weeks after that tragedy occurred 00:27:43.869 --> 00:27:46.690 and he's thriving at work and that is a very 00:27:46.690 --> 00:27:50.069 positive place for him to be now um and it's 00:27:50.069 --> 00:27:52.230 helping him get through so wow those places do 00:27:52.230 --> 00:27:54.950 exist this is america by the way arizona wow 00:27:54.950 --> 00:27:58.009 that's very supportive it was amazing and i think 00:27:58.009 --> 00:28:01.390 as you described it Did he ever say how he felt 00:28:01.390 --> 00:28:03.829 when people said that to him? I know how he felt 00:28:03.829 --> 00:28:05.890 because it just so happened that we were in the 00:28:05.890 --> 00:28:08.349 car together when his boss initially had called 00:28:08.349 --> 00:28:10.730 and said, you know, hey, I'm checking in. What 00:28:10.730 --> 00:28:13.069 do you need? And, you know, my brother was almost 00:28:13.069 --> 00:28:14.509 like, I don't know what I need at this point. 00:28:14.549 --> 00:28:15.809 And he said, well, then don't worry about it. 00:28:16.250 --> 00:28:17.970 We got it under control. I mean, I could tell 00:28:17.970 --> 00:28:21.329 how incredible that felt for him. You know, it 00:28:21.329 --> 00:28:23.849 was almost an unspoken understanding that then, 00:28:23.869 --> 00:28:26.609 like I said, that came to fruition. He felt supported. 00:28:27.180 --> 00:28:28.839 knowing that his job was there, his team was 00:28:28.839 --> 00:28:30.900 there, there's nothing in peril. And then he 00:28:30.900 --> 00:28:33.660 felt understood that how long it might take, 00:28:33.700 --> 00:28:35.839 he doesn't know, who knows how long grief takes, 00:28:36.099 --> 00:28:39.180 you know? But yeah, so I think it was a, like 00:28:39.180 --> 00:28:41.319 I said, a really powerful example of what, and 00:28:41.319 --> 00:28:43.420 this is by the way, the corporate of corporate 00:28:43.420 --> 00:28:46.339 jobs. This is not some like artist or, you know, 00:28:46.359 --> 00:28:47.960 not say anything against the art world, but you 00:28:47.960 --> 00:28:49.400 know, this is not something that's like a flexible 00:28:49.400 --> 00:28:51.420 working arrangement type of job. This is a high 00:28:51.420 --> 00:28:54.400 travel demand, highly corporate job. And they 00:28:54.400 --> 00:28:56.880 were able to make that space for him. And when 00:28:56.880 --> 00:29:01.940 he came back, I think feeling valued. Oh, very 00:29:01.940 --> 00:29:05.619 valued, yeah. You're not just a cog in the system, 00:29:05.700 --> 00:29:10.180 right? You're a human being. Life happens. Tragedy 00:29:10.180 --> 00:29:14.880 happens. And you come back and people are still 00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:18.059 there and everyone, you know, loves you. And 00:29:18.059 --> 00:29:20.140 that's lovely, isn't it? And it's not just lip 00:29:20.140 --> 00:29:22.079 service, right? Because I think, you know, on 00:29:22.079 --> 00:29:25.200 the flip side of that, I've had clientele, I'm 00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:27.279 a coach, and I've had clientele that have, for 00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:29.440 example, gone on maternity leave and been told 00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:32.039 your job will be here. No problem. We got it. 00:29:32.119 --> 00:29:34.740 And then been let go at the end of their maternity 00:29:34.740 --> 00:29:37.119 leave before they come back to work. So that's, 00:29:37.119 --> 00:29:39.019 you know, the opposite side of that story is 00:29:39.019 --> 00:29:41.059 like the lip service that we're here for you. 00:29:41.099 --> 00:29:42.819 Everything will be waiting for you when you come 00:29:42.819 --> 00:29:45.539 back. And then the other shoe drops. So that, 00:29:45.640 --> 00:29:47.220 I guess, brings in the whole sort of compassion 00:29:47.220 --> 00:29:51.829 side of things. And what could you say? workplaces 00:29:51.829 --> 00:29:54.690 need to do to incorporate more compassion into 00:29:54.690 --> 00:29:58.250 a working environment? The definition of compassion 00:29:58.250 --> 00:30:02.789 is a little bit more complex than empathy. Empathy 00:30:02.789 --> 00:30:06.769 is perspective taking, walking in somebody else's 00:30:06.769 --> 00:30:09.369 shoes, right? Understanding what's going on. 00:30:09.809 --> 00:30:13.009 Compassion is a little notch up where you actually 00:30:13.009 --> 00:30:16.769 take action to relieve the pain or suffering 00:30:16.769 --> 00:30:19.549 or whatever that person's going through. So it's 00:30:19.549 --> 00:30:28.279 more there's a result. Empathy is understanding, 00:30:28.579 --> 00:30:31.400 holding space, and that's it. You don't actually 00:30:31.400 --> 00:30:34.839 need to do anything. That's very valuable too. 00:30:34.960 --> 00:30:38.519 It's not any lesser than compassion. So a compassionate 00:30:38.519 --> 00:30:43.660 workplace would be actions tied to events that 00:30:43.660 --> 00:30:47.450 are not positive, right? we need to help someone 00:30:47.450 --> 00:30:50.309 in a certain situation or we need to help each 00:30:50.309 --> 00:30:55.869 other. Again, with social isolation during COVID 00:30:55.869 --> 00:31:00.250 and workplaces that suddenly became bereft of 00:31:00.250 --> 00:31:05.369 human beings, contact through virtual interactions 00:31:05.369 --> 00:31:10.789 most of the time. So people who were compassionate 00:31:10.789 --> 00:31:13.569 would check in on one another. I think people 00:31:13.569 --> 00:31:16.900 received... little presents and surprises when 00:31:16.900 --> 00:31:20.039 they were you know working from home birthdays 00:31:20.039 --> 00:31:23.460 were remembered although they couldn't be together 00:31:23.460 --> 00:31:28.220 um those sort of things and people who lost lost 00:31:28.220 --> 00:31:32.039 loved ones who couldn't actually either go for 00:31:32.039 --> 00:31:35.059 the funerals or fly across the world in time 00:31:35.059 --> 00:31:38.119 because nobody was flying or doing anything like 00:31:38.119 --> 00:31:41.099 that compassionate acts come in in different 00:31:41.099 --> 00:31:45.089 ways different sizes Holding space, just listening, 00:31:45.309 --> 00:31:48.109 understanding, feeling what the other person 00:31:48.109 --> 00:31:52.470 feels, being there is extremely important. At 00:31:52.470 --> 00:31:54.849 the same time, there are certain jobs that require 00:31:54.849 --> 00:31:57.349 a lot of compassion, obviously in healthcare, 00:31:57.670 --> 00:32:03.529 but pastors, priests, any imams, rabbis, people 00:32:03.529 --> 00:32:09.109 who are religious heads as well and in the community, 00:32:09.250 --> 00:32:13.799 teachers too. Lawyers, although people may laugh. 00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:19.240 Was my first thought, but okay. Policemen, firemen, 00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:21.519 they're all part of what we call the helping 00:32:21.519 --> 00:32:25.200 profession, right? Because we deal with people 00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:28.200 and we have to fix things, right? Or at least 00:32:28.200 --> 00:32:33.279 participate in helping doing something. And they 00:32:33.279 --> 00:32:36.220 can suffer from something called compassion fatigue. 00:32:36.779 --> 00:32:41.109 It's a form of burnout. But if you practice compassion 00:32:41.109 --> 00:32:46.549 with meaning and purpose, it would, research 00:32:46.549 --> 00:32:49.990 shows, recharge you because that is what you 00:32:49.990 --> 00:32:54.930 do. That is your being and your work. And if 00:32:54.930 --> 00:32:57.890 that is the way it is practiced, we shouldn't 00:32:57.890 --> 00:33:01.410 suffer from burnout. However, if we do, nursing 00:33:01.410 --> 00:33:04.869 professionals, if they're in a pediatric oncology 00:33:04.869 --> 00:33:08.190 service and all they see is... children without 00:33:08.190 --> 00:33:12.170 hair very weak not making it you know through 00:33:12.170 --> 00:33:16.150 the months they can ask to be rotated out and 00:33:16.150 --> 00:33:18.670 go to another service or different department 00:33:18.670 --> 00:33:21.769 and then come back in later or not at all or 00:33:21.769 --> 00:33:24.230 some people say this is what i love i want to 00:33:24.230 --> 00:33:27.049 be in icu i want to be here you know this is 00:33:27.049 --> 00:33:30.369 so this is me this is part of my identity and 00:33:30.369 --> 00:33:33.450 who i am i wouldn't want to be anywhere else 00:33:33.450 --> 00:33:36.880 so it depends on you know how this needs to be 00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:41.140 managed from one individual to another but again 00:33:41.140 --> 00:33:44.619 that skill of listening um you know receiving 00:33:44.619 --> 00:33:48.359 feedback what do i need to do in any situation 00:33:48.359 --> 00:33:52.839 um that that calls for it so um i guess that's 00:33:52.839 --> 00:33:54.940 what a compassionate workplace would be like 00:33:54.940 --> 00:33:57.019 well it's interesting when you were talking about 00:33:57.019 --> 00:33:59.319 that you know some folks might need to be rotated 00:33:59.319 --> 00:34:01.720 out of that particular you know department then 00:34:01.720 --> 00:34:04.500 some folks need to be in it Right. Similar to 00:34:04.500 --> 00:34:07.059 what you said about some folks need time off 00:34:07.059 --> 00:34:09.860 to exercise and some folks need time off to do 00:34:09.860 --> 00:34:12.320 their calligraphy class. It's like it doesn't 00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:15.019 need to look the exact same for every single 00:34:15.019 --> 00:34:17.639 individual. And I think in building this compassionate 00:34:17.639 --> 00:34:19.820 workplace that you're talking about, it has to 00:34:19.820 --> 00:34:22.219 be individualized. It can't just be like, well, 00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:24.719 you know, everyone gets time off for exercise, 00:34:24.820 --> 00:34:26.559 but you have to prove that you're exercising 00:34:26.559 --> 00:34:28.539 and it can only be for 30 minutes. You know, 00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:30.360 it's like, well, that's not the thing that recharges 00:34:30.360 --> 00:34:32.610 me. I hope it is for everyone listening. But, 00:34:32.690 --> 00:34:34.849 you know, it's like I think that that level of 00:34:34.849 --> 00:34:37.590 personalization and understanding of different 00:34:37.590 --> 00:34:40.710 approaches is just as key. I agree with you, 00:34:40.750 --> 00:34:43.590 Amanda. And this whole concept of resilience, 00:34:43.769 --> 00:34:46.530 right, is a very woolly subject. It's different 00:34:46.530 --> 00:34:49.139 things to different people. You're right. Some 00:34:49.139 --> 00:34:55.139 people say I tune out, enjoy, binge watch on 00:34:55.139 --> 00:35:01.699 Netflix and I feel amazing after that. Some people 00:35:01.699 --> 00:35:04.320 say it's a glass of wine and some chocolate. 00:35:04.420 --> 00:35:08.099 Some people go run half a marathon and they feel 00:35:08.099 --> 00:35:12.119 great. So what works for different people is 00:35:12.119 --> 00:35:15.480 the response, right? That your resilience is 00:35:15.480 --> 00:35:21.420 there. It has to be consistent, built upon. And 00:35:21.420 --> 00:35:24.920 our baseline for resilience is different as well, 00:35:25.019 --> 00:35:26.820 right? There are people who are more resilient 00:35:26.820 --> 00:35:30.760 than others. People who practice sports, strangely 00:35:30.760 --> 00:35:34.599 enough, competitive sports, build their resilience 00:35:34.599 --> 00:35:37.900 mentally because physical resilience requires 00:35:37.900 --> 00:35:40.619 that of us. We need to push ourselves. Can you 00:35:40.619 --> 00:35:42.940 say that one more time directly? No, I'm just 00:35:42.940 --> 00:35:45.800 teasing Melina. Absolutely, you're right. It 00:35:45.800 --> 00:35:47.679 is a fact. And we have research now that shows 00:35:47.679 --> 00:35:49.980 that women in leadership positions, C -level 00:35:49.980 --> 00:35:53.860 positions, I think 94 % of them played sports 00:35:53.860 --> 00:35:56.539 as kids. There's a reason for that. That's not 00:35:56.539 --> 00:35:59.059 an accidental coincidence. People listening are 00:35:59.059 --> 00:36:02.880 not sporty. But other things, if you're a high 00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:06.920 -level musician, right, you play Tchaikovsky's 00:36:06.920 --> 00:36:10.460 Piano Concerto. And everyone, you're on stage, 00:36:10.619 --> 00:36:13.000 everyone's listening, not one false note. Right. 00:36:13.119 --> 00:36:17.139 And you can't suddenly forget. Yeah. It is high 00:36:17.139 --> 00:36:21.079 stress. So high performance. It can be in sports. 00:36:21.360 --> 00:36:25.480 It can be in the arts world. Right. Ballet dancers. 00:36:26.480 --> 00:36:30.519 Podcasting. High stakes podcasting. Exactly. 00:36:30.739 --> 00:36:33.880 Because, you know, one take and that's it. But 00:36:33.880 --> 00:36:39.570 the striving for perfection. is not always that 00:36:39.570 --> 00:36:43.690 wonderful for us we do the best we can every 00:36:43.690 --> 00:36:48.389 day we show up and if it's not our best that's 00:36:48.389 --> 00:36:51.010 okay too you don't have to beat yourself up be 00:36:51.010 --> 00:36:54.030 kind to yourselves right so in that high performance 00:36:54.030 --> 00:36:57.690 space yes we'd love to be fantastic wonderful 00:36:57.690 --> 00:37:02.320 you know gold award or medal or whatever it is 00:37:02.320 --> 00:37:05.460 there'll come a time when we're not because you 00:37:05.460 --> 00:37:08.639 know performance is variable day to day year 00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:11.159 to year you know if we talk about the female 00:37:11.159 --> 00:37:16.159 body we're having estrogen yeah for a long time 00:37:16.159 --> 00:37:19.659 and then suddenly it tapers off right it's going 00:37:19.659 --> 00:37:23.860 to be different um but it's not good or bad it 00:37:23.860 --> 00:37:28.719 just is yeah right and we're going to be performant 00:37:29.239 --> 00:37:31.659 in different ways. Obviously with the tapering 00:37:31.659 --> 00:37:34.519 of oestrogen comes a cascade of other symptoms 00:37:34.519 --> 00:37:37.400 that could mean brain fog, just fatigue, you're 00:37:37.400 --> 00:37:39.440 not sleeping very well, which might then impact 00:37:39.440 --> 00:37:42.519 your time at work. Do you have any advice for 00:37:42.519 --> 00:37:45.780 women going through this like crazy period? Because 00:37:45.780 --> 00:37:49.059 some women feel they're not, obviously they don't 00:37:49.059 --> 00:37:51.519 feel like themselves and they then start to question, 00:37:51.619 --> 00:37:55.000 can I do this? Am I capable of doing what I've 00:37:55.000 --> 00:37:57.420 been doing for the last 20, 30 years? Maybe not 00:37:57.420 --> 00:38:00.650 30, but you know. maybe 30 is there any advice 00:38:00.650 --> 00:38:03.329 for women going through that that you know what 00:38:03.329 --> 00:38:05.750 you can get through you will get through any 00:38:05.750 --> 00:38:10.349 form of change um is hard right um especially 00:38:10.349 --> 00:38:14.030 if it's to change in a worsening of something 00:38:14.030 --> 00:38:20.250 right the wonderful thing and the not so wonderful 00:38:20.250 --> 00:38:23.110 thing is change is constant so it will never 00:38:23.110 --> 00:38:25.909 be not wonderful forever and it's not going to 00:38:25.909 --> 00:38:29.039 be ecstatically wonderful forever and ever so 00:38:29.039 --> 00:38:33.460 except coming to the stage of acceptance um there 00:38:33.460 --> 00:38:37.840 will be other emotions in between sadness to 00:38:37.840 --> 00:38:41.280 the anger category more than i like yes and and 00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:46.000 helplessness right i'm it's just this is too 00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:48.860 much for me to handle right loss of confidence 00:38:48.860 --> 00:38:52.380 we see that in children as well right when they 00:38:52.380 --> 00:38:55.019 have to sit for exams when they go they're always 00:38:55.019 --> 00:38:58.900 benchmarked against something quite ridiculous 00:38:58.900 --> 00:39:00.980 because they're them. They're not anyone else. 00:39:01.059 --> 00:39:04.559 Right. But and we go through life with these 00:39:04.559 --> 00:39:07.360 benchmarks and who we need to be, where we need 00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:09.800 to be in, you know, how much we need to earn, 00:39:10.019 --> 00:39:14.079 what grade level salary level at work. And that's 00:39:14.079 --> 00:39:19.179 part of life. And so I think being able to express 00:39:19.179 --> 00:39:22.469 our emotions when we feel those changes. And 00:39:22.469 --> 00:39:25.170 slowly getting to the stage where we accept those 00:39:25.170 --> 00:39:28.130 changes. Acceptance does not mean giving up. 00:39:28.630 --> 00:39:31.670 This is what it is. This is how I'm going to 00:39:31.670 --> 00:39:34.190 get through this. But at some point it's going 00:39:34.190 --> 00:39:37.889 to change again, right? And acceptance is making 00:39:37.889 --> 00:39:40.530 peace as well. You said it basically, but isn't 00:39:40.530 --> 00:39:42.429 there the saying that the only constant is change? 00:39:42.570 --> 00:39:45.650 Yes. Thank you so much for today. I feel like 00:39:45.650 --> 00:39:49.570 you've given us so much insight into how. Women, 00:39:49.630 --> 00:39:52.610 people can manage wellness at work. It feels 00:39:52.610 --> 00:39:55.710 like a lot of it does come down to putting in 00:39:55.710 --> 00:39:58.030 boundaries, prioritizing yourself and just taking 00:39:58.030 --> 00:40:01.829 a moment to breathe and being grounded with what 00:40:01.829 --> 00:40:05.469 you need to do and what you want to do. But before 00:40:05.469 --> 00:40:07.610 we finish, we do have one final question and 00:40:07.610 --> 00:40:10.170 that is, what is your 40s formula? What would 00:40:10.170 --> 00:40:13.269 you say to women who are in their 40s on how 00:40:13.269 --> 00:40:16.909 they can best thrive either at work or in their 00:40:16.909 --> 00:40:20.380 personal lives during this decade? do what makes 00:40:20.380 --> 00:40:24.480 you happy not everything is going to be possible 00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:28.320 that finds something that you hang on to that 00:40:28.320 --> 00:40:32.900 is meaningful purposeful and makes you happy 00:40:32.900 --> 00:40:39.340 forget being perfect we strive and we try and 00:40:39.340 --> 00:40:42.820 we outdo ourselves to be an image of something 00:40:42.820 --> 00:40:47.300 we've received right even from very young fairy 00:40:47.300 --> 00:40:51.980 tales princesses and queens and all sorts of 00:40:51.980 --> 00:40:56.559 marvelous creatures that we are told or stories 00:40:56.559 --> 00:41:01.480 relate to us. But being who we are, coming into 00:41:01.480 --> 00:41:06.960 that age where we can be ourselves is not easy. 00:41:07.340 --> 00:41:15.099 I undertook my PhD at 46 when my children had 00:41:15.099 --> 00:41:19.219 grown up. I have three and The two elder ones 00:41:19.219 --> 00:41:22.920 had left home. I had a whole lot of degrees and 00:41:22.920 --> 00:41:29.199 I did not need any more. I definitely was very 00:41:29.199 --> 00:41:33.800 privileged to have had education. Some countries 00:41:33.800 --> 00:41:36.639 where women do not have access to education, 00:41:36.719 --> 00:41:40.699 cannot drive cars, cannot do what they like with 00:41:40.699 --> 00:41:43.579 their bodies, dress the way they like. And I 00:41:43.579 --> 00:41:46.789 felt that... This is something I want to do. 00:41:46.929 --> 00:41:51.170 And everybody said, you're mad because your brain 00:41:51.170 --> 00:41:53.530 has turned to putty. You've had three children 00:41:53.530 --> 00:41:56.030 and you're going to have to study and actually 00:41:56.030 --> 00:41:59.789 do research whilst working full time. So it took 00:41:59.789 --> 00:42:02.650 me several years to complete because you're just 00:42:02.650 --> 00:42:05.369 going to be slower at gathering data and, you 00:42:05.369 --> 00:42:07.969 know, getting it out there. And in the meantime, 00:42:08.269 --> 00:42:10.809 I think my father got very ill and his cancer. 00:42:11.559 --> 00:42:13.440 You know, all that stuff was going on. But at 00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:15.699 the end of it, was it because it was finished 00:42:15.699 --> 00:42:19.039 that I was happy? It was no, because all the 00:42:19.039 --> 00:42:22.179 warts, all the difficult parts were part of what 00:42:22.179 --> 00:42:24.460 I needed to go through to be a little bit more 00:42:24.460 --> 00:42:28.880 resilient. And today, in my sixth decade at 60, 00:42:29.199 --> 00:42:34.219 I don't really care what people think. I care. 00:42:34.809 --> 00:42:37.989 If I hurt them, I care if they're not feeling 00:42:37.989 --> 00:42:40.789 well due to something in our interaction that 00:42:40.789 --> 00:42:44.469 has triggered unhappiness or ill feeling or hurt, 00:42:44.570 --> 00:42:50.409 but not as to who I am. And that's pretty, I 00:42:50.409 --> 00:42:54.789 think, empowering. So it needn't be perfect. 00:42:54.909 --> 00:42:57.329 I'm sure you noticed and I could see in Amanda's 00:42:57.329 --> 00:43:01.590 eyes, there was this peeing sound and it's actually 00:43:01.590 --> 00:43:05.199 my Apple Watch. I forgot to take it off much 00:43:05.199 --> 00:43:09.019 as I took the phone away. And I thought, shoot. 00:43:09.539 --> 00:43:12.820 But you know what? It's not perfect. But has 00:43:12.820 --> 00:43:15.760 it entirely ruined this podcast? I don't think 00:43:15.760 --> 00:43:19.079 so. And life will go on. Exactly that, yeah. 00:43:19.119 --> 00:43:22.739 You can whip me outside when we get out of the 00:43:22.739 --> 00:43:25.280 studio. We are recent Garmin converts, but we 00:43:25.280 --> 00:43:27.679 were Apple watch users forever. So I knew the 00:43:27.679 --> 00:43:31.000 sound. I was like, I know that sound. And you 00:43:31.000 --> 00:43:33.369 know, what you're saying is, do what makes you 00:43:33.369 --> 00:43:36.489 happy. And then I guess strive for progress, 00:43:36.610 --> 00:43:39.110 not perfection. Those are sort of key things 00:43:39.110 --> 00:43:43.010 that anyone, everyone, man, woman, 40s, 50s, 00:43:43.050 --> 00:43:46.030 60s, those are things that everybody should be 00:43:46.030 --> 00:43:49.349 hoping for. And wow, well done on getting your 00:43:49.349 --> 00:43:55.070 PhD in your mid 40s with three kids and your 00:43:55.070 --> 00:43:58.670 dad being sick. It's just such an amazing achievement 00:43:58.670 --> 00:44:01.190 that you can show people that it doesn't matter 00:44:01.190 --> 00:44:03.340 where you are in your life. If you want something, 00:44:03.519 --> 00:44:05.940 you can do it. I think there are women and men 00:44:05.940 --> 00:44:08.559 who climb mountains and do more difficult things. 00:44:09.789 --> 00:44:12.369 Go to space and not sure if they're going to 00:44:12.369 --> 00:44:16.349 re -enter the atmosphere. I think my achievements 00:44:16.349 --> 00:44:19.269 are very, very minimal compared to all of that. 00:44:19.789 --> 00:44:23.369 And, you know, supportive environments. They, 00:44:23.550 --> 00:44:26.389 you know, we love you for who you are, not who 00:44:26.389 --> 00:44:29.210 you can become or anything else, but we'll support 00:44:29.210 --> 00:44:31.690 you if you want to become something else. Right. 00:44:31.809 --> 00:44:34.389 So that that's the message I think that is vital 00:44:34.389 --> 00:44:38.090 to. to be heard and you know communicated and 00:44:38.090 --> 00:44:39.809 also i think you did want to say that you don't 00:44:39.809 --> 00:44:42.909 give a shit anymore and you can't say that on 00:44:42.909 --> 00:44:48.570 this podcast give a toss yeah thank you so much 00:44:48.570 --> 00:44:51.210 dr molina it's been an absolute pleasure thank 00:44:51.210 --> 00:44:56.380 you both me too i'll be listening to this Just 00:44:56.380 --> 00:45:01.320 to hear myself and my imperfections. Thank you. 00:45:01.420 --> 00:45:03.900 Thank you. Guys, you know, we love coffee. And 00:45:03.900 --> 00:45:05.340 if you want to show us some love, you know, you 00:45:05.340 --> 00:45:08.039 can always get us one. Just visit buymeacoffee 00:45:08.039 --> 00:45:12.940 .com slash the 40s formula. Cheers. Before we 00:45:12.940 --> 00:45:15.659 go, please remember to hit subscribe and take 00:45:15.659 --> 00:45:17.920 a moment to support the 40s formula by leaving 00:45:17.920 --> 00:45:20.909 a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your 00:45:20.909 --> 00:45:22.869 reviews will help us to reach more people and 00:45:22.869 --> 00:45:24.849 allow us to continue to bring valuable content. 00:45:25.150 --> 00:45:27.050 It should only take a moment and it's a free 00:45:27.050 --> 00:45:29.190 way for you to support the show. You can also 00:45:29.190 --> 00:45:31.469 stay updated with The 40s Formula by following 00:45:31.469 --> 00:45:35.050 us on Instagram at The40sFormula, all one word. 00:45:35.389 --> 00:45:37.849 We share behind the scenes insights, episode 00:45:37.849 --> 00:45:40.610 updates and much more. So please be sure to hit 00:45:40.610 --> 00:45:43.030 that follow button. We appreciate your time and 00:45:43.030 --> 00:45:44.989 support. Thank you for being part of this community. 00:45:45.070 --> 00:45:46.869 And we'll be back next week for more empowering 00:45:46.869 --> 00:46:33.039 conversations with inspiring guests. Bye. glasses 00:46:33.039 --> 00:46:36.019 look smudgy not at all no not crystal clear not 00:46:36.019 --> 00:46:39.000 from this angle do they feel smudgy i don't know 00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:41.980 my eyesight's not the one to be trusted but at 00:46:41.980 --> 00:46:47.199 least you know from this close we become obsessional 00:46:47.199 --> 00:46:49.500 oh yeah of course of course and when you know 00:46:49.500 --> 00:46:50.559 it's being recorded yeah