As women, we do take on a lot, you know, we think,
oh, I'll just do it myself. And I think this
is how they get into this sort of burnout, extra
stress mode. You hit the nail on the head. We
kind of think we're larger than life and indispensable
and, you know, won't get done unless we do it.
But again, it's a world we keep spinning and
nothing will change, right? We're a mere speck.
an assembly of atoms that will just go back to
the same, you know, atom particles in a totally
different shape when we're gone. And there's
nothing there, right? If we look at the Earth
or the entire galaxy or, you know, all the assembly
of planets, there's nothing there. It's just
a spec. Hello and welcome to the 40s Formula,
your go -to place for insightful discussions
on navigating your 40s and thriving in this transformative
decade. We're your hosts, Amanda and Jasmine,
two women that are passionate about exploring
the challenges and adventures that come with
turning 40 and what lies ahead. Dr. Melina Supaya
is the Chief of Learning and Culture at the Sauer
Foundation. In her previous role, she was a Chief
Wellbeing Officer at the National University
Health System, focused on supporting and enhancing
the mental, physical and emotional health of
16 ,000 employees. Dr. Supaya was the Administrative
Director for Clinical Education for eight years,
whilst holding an appointment of Adjunct Assistant
Professor at the NUS School of Medicine. A certified
facilitator of mindfulness -based stress reduction,
she has worked closely with health care professionals
and students to enhance resilience and combat
burnout. Her extensive work experience spans
over 36 years across six countries, encompassing
diverse roles in food security and food science,
education and health care. Today we're going
to be looking at a topic that affects so many
women and that topic is workplace well -being.
Now many women of our age are balancing a family,
might have a demanding career, caregiver responsibilities
and could be going through the dreaded menopause
and all of this can be such a challenge especially
if you are working all day long. So what We are
going to be talking about today is how can we
better manage our health and well -being whilst
at work. And to do that, we have got Dr. Melina
Supaya with us today on the 40s Formula. Welcome.
Good morning. Thank you for having me. Thank
you for joining us. We're so excited to have
you here with us and share your expertise. So
Melina, let's just go straight into it. What
do you think are the biggest challenges that
women face in the workplace today? it would be
the same problems that men face with a different
sort of angle to it at different ages perhaps
in our 20s and 30s we might be setting up a family
or even into our 40s maturing into our work demands
like managerial level or leadership level So
the stressors are slightly different, perhaps.
Finding that balance is not going to be easy
at any age. As you mentioned, as we grow into
our latter years, we become caregivers as well.
Some are less fortunate. They may be caregivers
earlier on if you've got special needs children.
There's no sort of blanket rule for everyone.
A supportive workplace would be the answer. And
that, again, for any age, any gender, And that
that is the magic formula, I think, being heard,
being respected and valued, whatever difficulties
we may be facing. When you were talking about
kind of the balance and the supportive workplace,
I have a client right now who she's struggling
to find time to work out, to exercise. And she's
like, you know, I'm at the office from 10 a .m.
or at the office or on calls from 10 a .m. to
10 p .m. And my initial gut reaction is, you
have to set a boundary there. Is it reasonable
to be in an office or on a call for 12 hours
of a day if you have small kids at home? I mean,
it doesn't even matter if you just have a life
outside of work. How do you advise that women
in these situations set boundaries? It's really
not easy. Depends on what the expectations are.
flexible work arrangements and all the things
that we suddenly found were available um i think
we need to keep on that trend and try and work
something out where people still have breaks
just take a break and enjoy your meal or or listen
to a podcast you know wonderful things that re
-energize and recharge there is um a saying you
know sitting is the new smoking It's not actually
that, but the sense is we spend too many hours
sitting and 12 hours in a stretch is definitely
not good for us. You know, maybe have a conversation
with the boss and colleagues as to how we're
going to work and be very honest and say, I need
some time to exercise because I'm most productive
at work when I'm well. And I need to do this.
But I think that statement in itself is somewhat
revolutionary to actually face your boss and
say, I need to prioritize my wellness. I need
to take a break in the day and exercise. Yeah,
no, because I think that what will happen is
people think if I speak up, if I say something,
that's going to hinder my career progress. And
how can someone have the courage or the means
to say something like that when, you know, they
might. get overlooked for a promotion or some
other opportunity where a man doing the job might
be favoured because he's not going to say, oh,
I need to do this or I need to look after my
kids. Do you think that we see these types of
challenges as well? Perhaps in the number of
hours spent. But we're not counting beans, right?
At work, we're looking at... the outcomes so
maybe if we sit down to say these are the things
i need to achieve to the quality that is required
of me within this time frame or this timeline
if i can do it whilst i do other things is that
going to be okay it's still going to be 45 or
40 whatever how many ever hours a week But if
the outcomes are more than satisfactory, then
the person should be allowed to do what they
need to do. And that sort of flexibility, whether
it's time, the type of enthusiasm and energy,
because sitting for 12 hours drains you. You're
not producing your best work. We have to be honest
there, right? At some point in that 12 hours,
there's diminishing returns. Yeah. And I think
the very, very extreme would be people who drop
dead at their deaths from exhaustion. Maybe Japan,
Korea. I'm naming countries that I've heard of
such phenomena. Why do something that's really
not good for you? Did you see that Straits Times
article that recently came out? No, I didn't.
Singapore, I believe, is the third, and you guys
can double check me on this, the third most tired
nation. Oh, OK. So it was like a self -rated
fatigue scale of something, you know, it was
like a validated scale. OK. But I want to say
Singapore was the third most tired country or
possibly even higher. But yeah, I mean, it's
like people here are reporting extreme fatigue.
Yes. And I think overwork is one of those reasons.
Yes. I didn't know about the fatigue report.
But I've heard several times about being the
most sleep deprived country. Sort of matches,
right? But it's also a country where, unless
it's changed in the last few months, the highest
number of amputations. And you're going to ask
why? For diabetics? Correct. is that specifically
diabetes related i think because um badly managed
diabetes leads to gangren i'm shortening the
whole journey right a healthy lifestyle includes
movement includes you know having time to have
proper nutrition because if you're stuck sitting
for a long time you can't even get up and fix
yourself a nutritious salad or you know fried
egg or something right it's going to be a packet
of crisps or whatever arrives on your doorstep
yeah yeah or tons of coke right because it's
gonna get your energy levels up uh and and keep
you all alert and awake but for how long right
it's a snowball and so you know this just goes
back to productivity at work is the same as being
productive at home and being productive in your
general day -to -day life. You need to not only
eat well, you need to move, you need to incorporate
all of these things in. And then going back to
reports, there was another report by Deloitte
who did a women at work report last year. And
that report actually highlighted that stress
levels are going up and there are higher rates
of burnout. This report was worldwide? Yes. So
it was like a worldwide women at work report
that they interviewed women across different
sectors, different countries. And it's interesting
because you would have expected that some of
the things that happened over COVID where you
do get more sort of flexible working arrangements,
they seem to be sort of fizzling out now. Do
you think that's kind of the case? And what can
people do to try to help reduce? this stress
and anxiety that they've got around working.
Again, it boils down to the culture at work,
right? Beyond looking at policies, HR policies
of, you know, how many hours we need to work
and we need to look at engagement, what drives
people, what satisfaction, fulfilment. They're
very big words, but, you know, happiness is a
concept. That is elusive, perhaps, but a lot
of it boils down to meaning and purpose, right?
Is it meaningful for me to be a robot and do
these hours just for the sake of it? Is it meaningful
for me to feel awful when I can't attend my children's
important moments, whether at school, at home
or when they're sick, to just say. I'm so sorry,
you know, you're going to get the care without
mummy or without daddy because I've got other
priorities. So being able to prioritise and then
having a chat about it in the workplace and again,
include colleagues because we're not alone and
the single voice might not be heard, but as a
collective. That that may be more effective,
I think. I think that's a great tip. Yeah, because
exactly what you mentioned, you know, I do think
that, you know, if it's a single voice and a
single female voice, it can sometimes be dismissed
as, oh, it's just her problem. But if you get
a mixed group, you know, mixed genders, mixed
backgrounds, ages, you know, to say, no, we all
need to prioritize this way. I think that is
so much more powerful. I've had colleagues, male
colleagues. who've said, you know, I'm either
divorced or the only child, I'm not married,
looking after my parents, and I need time off
to take them for their medical visits, appointments,
and I need to do this and do that. And so it
cuts across different genders as well, I think.
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For women who are in sort of managerial positions,
or even just managers who might be male, What
can they do to sort of help their colleagues
or their employees to better manage stuff? Is
there something that you can suggest that they
can help to sort of implement and make a more
productive or easier, better work culture? In
a managerial role, we're sort of sandwiched between
the leadership level. And then people that work
with us, right? You kind of get this shit from
both ends. Yeah, it's a tough one. I think so.
One of the things would be, you know, very good
listening skills. We tend to speak more than
we listen. Not all, but generally. But when we
listen really carefully, what is needed? What
is the feedback I'm getting? And act on it. And
both ways, we might. be cascading things down
from the top. You know, decisions are made and
things have to run and this way and that. But
from the ground up as well, the listening to
what people not can or can't do, but how to be
their best selves when they show up. Right. And
that's not too much to ask. It's not like they're
not going to do it, but we can do it much better
if we had this, that and the other within reason,
not. unreasonable requests or demands, right?
So stress is a natural response from, you know,
even animals as well. It's a survival thing and
we need a certain amount of stress, right? Butt
kicked just so that we get there. And it builds
our resilience because we were totally unstressed.
There would be no response, you know. Just be
lying there, not moving. Flight freeze, right?
So stress, prolonged stress, our adrenaline,
cortisol levels are extremely high in the bloodstream
and that's not good for us. So maybe saying that
stress for a little while is good. But after
that, support as in colleagues, could you take
over this? I'm just going to have a break. When
I was working in the hospitals for many, many
years, we used to run a program. And in the emergency
department, for example, it's one way. The doors
open, they keep coming in, they keep coming in,
right? Everything from cough and calls to serious
car accidents, right? So there's trauma. And
they're all having to do triage, right? very
very urgent and important to do now and serious
and what's less we sort of help the staff whether
they were doctors and nurses on a very your shift
becomes very long right because it's very intense
to just say i need five minutes i'm going to
step out and have a breather just cover me the
world's not going to collapse because i'm out
but that communication to say i need this My
husband was that doctor. So he was in ED for
the entire, you know, before we started our clinic,
that's what he did. And you're absolutely right.
Just to say, I just need to go outside, take
a deep breath, potentially close my eyes, you
know, because obviously it's very visually stimulating
as well to be working in the ED, right? You see
things, things are presented to you. Let's put
it that way. You don't get a choice. And, you
know, to be empowered to say that is actually
difficult, even for doctors. You'd think, oh,
doctors, they can do whatever they want. That's
not true. There's a very specific ranking and
kind of way of interacting in that world as well,
which you're very familiar with. It's a pecking
order. That's a great way to say it, the pecking
order. And so, you know, the underlings might
not feel comfortable saying, hey, I just need
five minutes, you know. And I think that that
advice is good for doctor in the emergency room,
equally to parent of three young children, for
example. You have to be able to say even to your
children, like, you know, mommy has been overstimulated
for this morning. I need a moment to look at
a book or, you know, take a breather and then,
you know, let's play together again. I think
that those boundaries are equal depending, no
matter what the situation. And if you can't step
out, right, because it's COVID and we're all
gowned up, for example, you know, close your
eyes and people hate the word meditation, like,
oh, what's that stuff again? Have a mindful moment.
As you said, breathe, right? And just take stock.
The levels of all those hormones that are overstimulating
you for too long are just going to drop for a
while and that is biologically proven right the
parasympathetic nervous system kicks in and you're
gonna just gonna be a little bit more relaxed
it's not the right word but efficient rather
than being on overdrive and then you know just
burning out And I love what you said about how,
like, even in the emergency department, it's
like, it's like, you know, you can take five
minutes. You know, nothing's going to, the world's
not going to end. Where it's funny because I
think people outside of that world would be like,
that's an actual life or death situation. Like,
if those people can take a break, I surely can
take a break. Oh, yeah. On the flip side, I was
speaking to a client yesterday who's going through
a lot of work. She's saying it's a very busy
period. And she is struggling to offload. And
I guess. delegate to her employees because one
she's worried that they can't do it as well as
her and two she's also thinking that if I tell
someone to do this I'm just gonna get that's
not my job so what can women who are in that
situation maybe not even women just people in
that situation do because I do feel like as women
we do take on a lot you know we think oh I'll
just do it myself yeah and I think this is how
they get into this sort of burnout extra stress
mode you hit the nail on the head we kind of
think we're larger than life and indispensable
and you know won't get done unless we do it but
again it's a world we keep spinning and nothing
will change right we're a mere spec assembly
of atoms that will just go back to the same you
know atom particles in different in a totally
different shape when we're gone and there's nothing
nothing there right if we look at the earth or
the entire galaxy or you know all the assembly
of planets there's nothing there it's it's just
a suspect and if we sort of zoom out into the
intense moments that we're in and and just are
able to say it's it's fine it's it's going to
be all right um it's As we do that or when we
take a break, I think the other part about communicating
is it's always a two way thing and it needs to
be cultural. That means we say it too. If any
of you needs you're having a meltdown and, you
know, just play with words. Right. It might be
not a meltdown, but you just any of you need
a break. Come to me. I'll cover you. Go do your
thing. Because there are times when we need it.
But if we keep saying it, people know you've
got their backs. Right. Your kid's not well.
You need to do this. Just go. Right. Next Saturday.
Oh, you've got a shift. I'm not doing anything.
Can I help? But in return, obviously, you know,
it's reciprocal. Right. And that's the sort of
culture. It's very. It's a community of people
trying to get through the day at work, at home,
in the neighborhood and in schools for parents,
for teachers. You know, teachers are terribly
stressed. Right. And I can imagine, Amanda, in
the States where gun control. I know we're not
going to get into that. But, you know, walking
into school is like. Talk about that chronic
low grade stress. Yeah. It's very different from
Singapore. You can't help but think about that.
Yeah. So. you know uh keep saying it yeah right
and and display that behavior yeah because otherwise
it would be very hypocritical like what i loved
your analogy of you know being a tiny speck and
sort of zooming out it reminded me i don't know
if you've seen this movie it's going to show
how old i am now but obviously everyone knows
i'm in my 40s um men in black The first one,
you know, when it was the galaxy was in Orion's
belt and, you know, it was like Orion's belt,
not in space, but, you know, on the cat's neck.
Anyway, I digress. Women do tend to suffer from
burnout a lot more than men. And I guess it is
part of this responsibility that they tend to
take on themselves. How can you recognise within
yourself whether you are en route to burning
out? Signs of burnout, either in the workplace
or at home, are disengagement. So the classic
burnout scale has three categories. One is depersonalization.
The other is emotional exhaustion. And the third
is personal accomplishment. So if you feel you're
not accomplishing things, you're low on that,
but you're high on emotional exhaustion and depersonalization,
then you're... burnt out okay that disengagement
comes from not being able to cope there's a short
circuit and that that's it i'm just you know
as a zombie now but just to snap out of it isn't
easy um it can look like depression it can look
like a form of anxiety as well where you just
you know almost catatonic and not responding
all the things that we do not have conversations
about because it's highly stigmatized mental
health. Seeing a therapist, having access with
the if you've consulted a doctor to drugs. Right.
It might be a chemical imbalance as well. That's
something's going on. But, you know, different
types of therapies, drugs, talk therapy, having
a good rest, having good support around you.
In the workplace, we had to design that where
people take time off work and then reintegrate
the workplace. So there are policies for that.
We also had to get around the soft skills, the
unseen. If person X goes off, then Z and Y take
on their work. When they come back, there's a
lot of resentment. Correct. So we have to manage
that as well. And coming back doesn't mean they
take on 100%. Sometimes the HR policies can say
you come back at 50, bump it up to 70. If you
feel that's not working, go back to 50 or less.
But it's conversations that need to be had and
the person has to feel supported and safe. But
with enough understanding and judgment, I think
we can make a call. You know, otherwise the person
either leaves or just is very, very sick. And
I mean, it's one of those things, you know, you're
just mentioning like, OK, so let's say this very,
very stressed person, you know, person X needs
to take leave. And then, you know, Z and Y are
taking over their responsibilities and then they
come back. Is there a world where before X gets
so stressed that they have to leave, that X,
Y and Z all have a more flexible working arrangement
where all three of them get a break? you know
meaning like where everyone catches a break before
one person burns out and then turns the other
two into overdrive yes you know how do you design
those workplaces those preventative workplaces
would be the again the culture right what do
i need to deliver how am i going to get there
how do i do it with whom am i going to do it
and have those conversations i will need twice
a week to be able to get to the gym or twice
a week to go for my you know, calligraphy or
class or go for a walk. Right. And every six
weeks I'm going to have, you know, a day off
or two days off plus the weekend. It's something
we need to design together. And that forms a
certain workplace culture. If having done that
productivity is low, people are not delivering,
then we'll have to rethink and redesign. what
we initially thought would work right so it's
a work in progress it's going to be several iterations
to get there and it will continue changing right
whilst people's life's courses change they may
be facing other issues if they find out that
they've got an illness if they find out that
a loved one has an illness or even grieving and
loss right those those are times where people
are just going to be not themselves uh and and
you know we we roll with the punches we'll have
several conversations as we need to i guess my
brother's a great example of this he uh very
suddenly very tragically lost his wife last year
i'm sorry to hear that thank you and his workplace
was incredible they could be the model for what
a supportive environment looks like where you
know he obviously delivered that news as suddenly
as it occurred and they said don't worry Like
from this day until the foreseeable future, you
take as much time as you need, as much leave
as you need. Don't check in. Don't wonder. Don't
worry. It will be taken care of. And when you're
ready to come back, because for my brother, his
job is a great part of his identity. he wanted
to come back right so they said when you're ready
to come back you come right back in your job
is here your team is here and that's exactly
how it went by the way he returned to work about
uh three or four weeks after that tragedy occurred
and he's thriving at work and that is a very
positive place for him to be now um and it's
helping him get through so wow those places do
exist this is america by the way arizona wow
that's very supportive it was amazing and i think
as you described it Did he ever say how he felt
when people said that to him? I know how he felt
because it just so happened that we were in the
car together when his boss initially had called
and said, you know, hey, I'm checking in. What
do you need? And, you know, my brother was almost
like, I don't know what I need at this point.
And he said, well, then don't worry about it.
We got it under control. I mean, I could tell
how incredible that felt for him. You know, it
was almost an unspoken understanding that then,
like I said, that came to fruition. He felt supported.
knowing that his job was there, his team was
there, there's nothing in peril. And then he
felt understood that how long it might take,
he doesn't know, who knows how long grief takes,
you know? But yeah, so I think it was a, like
I said, a really powerful example of what, and
this is by the way, the corporate of corporate
jobs. This is not some like artist or, you know,
not say anything against the art world, but you
know, this is not something that's like a flexible
working arrangement type of job. This is a high
travel demand, highly corporate job. And they
were able to make that space for him. And when
he came back, I think feeling valued. Oh, very
valued, yeah. You're not just a cog in the system,
right? You're a human being. Life happens. Tragedy
happens. And you come back and people are still
there and everyone, you know, loves you. And
that's lovely, isn't it? And it's not just lip
service, right? Because I think, you know, on
the flip side of that, I've had clientele, I'm
a coach, and I've had clientele that have, for
example, gone on maternity leave and been told
your job will be here. No problem. We got it.
And then been let go at the end of their maternity
leave before they come back to work. So that's,
you know, the opposite side of that story is
like the lip service that we're here for you.
Everything will be waiting for you when you come
back. And then the other shoe drops. So that,
I guess, brings in the whole sort of compassion
side of things. And what could you say? workplaces
need to do to incorporate more compassion into
a working environment? The definition of compassion
is a little bit more complex than empathy. Empathy
is perspective taking, walking in somebody else's
shoes, right? Understanding what's going on.
Compassion is a little notch up where you actually
take action to relieve the pain or suffering
or whatever that person's going through. So it's
more there's a result. Empathy is understanding,
holding space, and that's it. You don't actually
need to do anything. That's very valuable too.
It's not any lesser than compassion. So a compassionate
workplace would be actions tied to events that
are not positive, right? we need to help someone
in a certain situation or we need to help each
other. Again, with social isolation during COVID
and workplaces that suddenly became bereft of
human beings, contact through virtual interactions
most of the time. So people who were compassionate
would check in on one another. I think people
received... little presents and surprises when
they were you know working from home birthdays
were remembered although they couldn't be together
um those sort of things and people who lost lost
loved ones who couldn't actually either go for
the funerals or fly across the world in time
because nobody was flying or doing anything like
that compassionate acts come in in different
ways different sizes Holding space, just listening,
understanding, feeling what the other person
feels, being there is extremely important. At
the same time, there are certain jobs that require
a lot of compassion, obviously in healthcare,
but pastors, priests, any imams, rabbis, people
who are religious heads as well and in the community,
teachers too. Lawyers, although people may laugh.
Was my first thought, but okay. Policemen, firemen,
they're all part of what we call the helping
profession, right? Because we deal with people
and we have to fix things, right? Or at least
participate in helping doing something. And they
can suffer from something called compassion fatigue.
It's a form of burnout. But if you practice compassion
with meaning and purpose, it would, research
shows, recharge you because that is what you
do. That is your being and your work. And if
that is the way it is practiced, we shouldn't
suffer from burnout. However, if we do, nursing
professionals, if they're in a pediatric oncology
service and all they see is... children without
hair very weak not making it you know through
the months they can ask to be rotated out and
go to another service or different department
and then come back in later or not at all or
some people say this is what i love i want to
be in icu i want to be here you know this is
so this is me this is part of my identity and
who i am i wouldn't want to be anywhere else
so it depends on you know how this needs to be
managed from one individual to another but again
that skill of listening um you know receiving
feedback what do i need to do in any situation
um that that calls for it so um i guess that's
what a compassionate workplace would be like
well it's interesting when you were talking about
that you know some folks might need to be rotated
out of that particular you know department then
some folks need to be in it Right. Similar to
what you said about some folks need time off
to exercise and some folks need time off to do
their calligraphy class. It's like it doesn't
need to look the exact same for every single
individual. And I think in building this compassionate
workplace that you're talking about, it has to
be individualized. It can't just be like, well,
you know, everyone gets time off for exercise,
but you have to prove that you're exercising
and it can only be for 30 minutes. You know,
it's like, well, that's not the thing that recharges
me. I hope it is for everyone listening. But,
you know, it's like I think that that level of
personalization and understanding of different
approaches is just as key. I agree with you,
Amanda. And this whole concept of resilience,
right, is a very woolly subject. It's different
things to different people. You're right. Some
people say I tune out, enjoy, binge watch on
Netflix and I feel amazing after that. Some people
say it's a glass of wine and some chocolate.
Some people go run half a marathon and they feel
great. So what works for different people is
the response, right? That your resilience is
there. It has to be consistent, built upon. And
our baseline for resilience is different as well,
right? There are people who are more resilient
than others. People who practice sports, strangely
enough, competitive sports, build their resilience
mentally because physical resilience requires
that of us. We need to push ourselves. Can you
say that one more time directly? No, I'm just
teasing Melina. Absolutely, you're right. It
is a fact. And we have research now that shows
that women in leadership positions, C -level
positions, I think 94 % of them played sports
as kids. There's a reason for that. That's not
an accidental coincidence. People listening are
not sporty. But other things, if you're a high
-level musician, right, you play Tchaikovsky's
Piano Concerto. And everyone, you're on stage,
everyone's listening, not one false note. Right.
And you can't suddenly forget. Yeah. It is high
stress. So high performance. It can be in sports.
It can be in the arts world. Right. Ballet dancers.
Podcasting. High stakes podcasting. Exactly.
Because, you know, one take and that's it. But
the striving for perfection. is not always that
wonderful for us we do the best we can every
day we show up and if it's not our best that's
okay too you don't have to beat yourself up be
kind to yourselves right so in that high performance
space yes we'd love to be fantastic wonderful
you know gold award or medal or whatever it is
there'll come a time when we're not because you
know performance is variable day to day year
to year you know if we talk about the female
body we're having estrogen yeah for a long time
and then suddenly it tapers off right it's going
to be different um but it's not good or bad it
just is yeah right and we're going to be performant
in different ways. Obviously with the tapering
of oestrogen comes a cascade of other symptoms
that could mean brain fog, just fatigue, you're
not sleeping very well, which might then impact
your time at work. Do you have any advice for
women going through this like crazy period? Because
some women feel they're not, obviously they don't
feel like themselves and they then start to question,
can I do this? Am I capable of doing what I've
been doing for the last 20, 30 years? Maybe not
30, but you know. maybe 30 is there any advice
for women going through that that you know what
you can get through you will get through any
form of change um is hard right um especially
if it's to change in a worsening of something
right the wonderful thing and the not so wonderful
thing is change is constant so it will never
be not wonderful forever and it's not going to
be ecstatically wonderful forever and ever so
except coming to the stage of acceptance um there
will be other emotions in between sadness to
the anger category more than i like yes and and
helplessness right i'm it's just this is too
much for me to handle right loss of confidence
we see that in children as well right when they
have to sit for exams when they go they're always
benchmarked against something quite ridiculous
because they're them. They're not anyone else.
Right. But and we go through life with these
benchmarks and who we need to be, where we need
to be in, you know, how much we need to earn,
what grade level salary level at work. And that's
part of life. And so I think being able to express
our emotions when we feel those changes. And
slowly getting to the stage where we accept those
changes. Acceptance does not mean giving up.
This is what it is. This is how I'm going to
get through this. But at some point it's going
to change again, right? And acceptance is making
peace as well. You said it basically, but isn't
there the saying that the only constant is change?
Yes. Thank you so much for today. I feel like
you've given us so much insight into how. Women,
people can manage wellness at work. It feels
like a lot of it does come down to putting in
boundaries, prioritizing yourself and just taking
a moment to breathe and being grounded with what
you need to do and what you want to do. But before
we finish, we do have one final question and
that is, what is your 40s formula? What would
you say to women who are in their 40s on how
they can best thrive either at work or in their
personal lives during this decade? do what makes
you happy not everything is going to be possible
that finds something that you hang on to that
is meaningful purposeful and makes you happy
forget being perfect we strive and we try and
we outdo ourselves to be an image of something
we've received right even from very young fairy
tales princesses and queens and all sorts of
marvelous creatures that we are told or stories
relate to us. But being who we are, coming into
that age where we can be ourselves is not easy.
I undertook my PhD at 46 when my children had
grown up. I have three and The two elder ones
had left home. I had a whole lot of degrees and
I did not need any more. I definitely was very
privileged to have had education. Some countries
where women do not have access to education,
cannot drive cars, cannot do what they like with
their bodies, dress the way they like. And I
felt that... This is something I want to do.
And everybody said, you're mad because your brain
has turned to putty. You've had three children
and you're going to have to study and actually
do research whilst working full time. So it took
me several years to complete because you're just
going to be slower at gathering data and, you
know, getting it out there. And in the meantime,
I think my father got very ill and his cancer.
You know, all that stuff was going on. But at
the end of it, was it because it was finished
that I was happy? It was no, because all the
warts, all the difficult parts were part of what
I needed to go through to be a little bit more
resilient. And today, in my sixth decade at 60,
I don't really care what people think. I care.
If I hurt them, I care if they're not feeling
well due to something in our interaction that
has triggered unhappiness or ill feeling or hurt,
but not as to who I am. And that's pretty, I
think, empowering. So it needn't be perfect.
I'm sure you noticed and I could see in Amanda's
eyes, there was this peeing sound and it's actually
my Apple Watch. I forgot to take it off much
as I took the phone away. And I thought, shoot.
But you know what? It's not perfect. But has
it entirely ruined this podcast? I don't think
so. And life will go on. Exactly that, yeah.
You can whip me outside when we get out of the
studio. We are recent Garmin converts, but we
were Apple watch users forever. So I knew the
sound. I was like, I know that sound. And you
know, what you're saying is, do what makes you
happy. And then I guess strive for progress,
not perfection. Those are sort of key things
that anyone, everyone, man, woman, 40s, 50s,
60s, those are things that everybody should be
hoping for. And wow, well done on getting your
PhD in your mid 40s with three kids and your
dad being sick. It's just such an amazing achievement
that you can show people that it doesn't matter
where you are in your life. If you want something,
you can do it. I think there are women and men
who climb mountains and do more difficult things.
Go to space and not sure if they're going to
re -enter the atmosphere. I think my achievements
are very, very minimal compared to all of that.
And, you know, supportive environments. They,
you know, we love you for who you are, not who
you can become or anything else, but we'll support
you if you want to become something else. Right.
So that that's the message I think that is vital
to. to be heard and you know communicated and
also i think you did want to say that you don't
give a shit anymore and you can't say that on
this podcast give a toss yeah thank you so much
dr molina it's been an absolute pleasure thank
you both me too i'll be listening to this Just
to hear myself and my imperfections. Thank you.
Thank you. Guys, you know, we love coffee. And
if you want to show us some love, you know, you
can always get us one. Just visit buymeacoffee
.com slash the 40s formula. Cheers. Before we
go, please remember to hit subscribe and take
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And we'll be back next week for more empowering
conversations with inspiring guests. Bye. glasses
look smudgy not at all no not crystal clear not
from this angle do they feel smudgy i don't know
my eyesight's not the one to be trusted but at
least you know from this close we become obsessional
oh yeah of course of course and when you know
it's being recorded yeah