we're looking at brains being wired differently,
which is much more validating and compassionate.
The ADHD brain, and to a large extent the autistic
brain, is driven by interest, by novelty, by
stress, and by challenge. That's different to
the neurotypical brain that is driven by doing
the right thing. The ADHD brain likes to be stimulated.
It's hard to juggle lots of things. Our brain,
we all have limits. But the ADHD brain is more
than just struggling to juggle. Hey, and welcome
to the 40s Formula, your go -to place for insightful
discussions on navigating the 40s and thriving
in this transformative decade. We're your hosts,
Jasmine and Amanda, two women that are passionate
about exploring the challenges and adventures
that come with turning 40 and what lies ahead.
Dr. Emma Waddington is a UK -trained clinical
psychologist with 20 years of experience in mental
health. She is the founder and clinical director
of Us Therapy, where she works with individuals,
couples, children and families helping them navigate
challenges such as anxiety, perfectionism, depression,
sleep disorders, anger management and behavioural
difficulties. She draws on evidence -based approaches
including cognitive behavioural therapy and acceptance
and commitment therapy. Emma has a particular
interest in ADHD women, recognising how often
it is undiagnosed and how frequently it coexists
with anxiety. She is passionate about increasing
awareness and understanding of ADHD, especially
in populations where it has historically been
overlooked. Before moving into private practice,
Emma was an adjunct associate professor at the
National University of Singapore's Master of
Clinical Psychology programme, where she taught
and mentored aspiring psychologists for five
years. Emma is also a podcast host and author,
dedicated to making psychological insights accessible
and engaging. Having moved eight times and lived
in five countries before settling in the UK for
her studies, she understands firsthand the complexities
of growing up across cultures. Holding both British
and Spanish nationalities, she brings a global
perspective to her work, particularly in supporting
the expatriates and third culture families. So
today on The 40s Formula we're joined by Emma
Waddington, a clinical psychologist and we are
going to be talking about ADHD in women. When
it comes to ADHD I think the pitch that gets
painted in most people's mind is a hyperactive
little boy who is being disruptive in class.
But a lot of women and girls don't get the diagnosis
they need. Why do you think that is Emma? For
a very long time we've all thought of ADHD as
the boy who has ants in their pants. And actually
there's been recent, we've got a manual called
the Diagnostics Statistical Manual, the DSM,
which as psychologists we use to diagnose. And
the last edition, which is the fifth and they're
now doing a revised edition, changed some of
the diagnoses and made it much broader. And that
has allowed for us to think about women more.
But most of the research originally was done
on boys and men, like most of the DSM. The original
research was on men. And so when we thought of
ADHD, we're really looking at the diagnostic
criteria as it pertains to men. And more recently,
we've recognised that women are quite different
when they present with ADHD and girls. And partly
we think about it from the perspective of socialising
girls. From a young age, we're told to be good
girls, to behave. So girls are very good at what
we call masking. So kind of like camouflaging.
hiding some of the hyperactivity. So quite early
on girls realize that they can't be agitated
and running around and in classroom teachers
recognize the girls that sit quietly and do their
worksheets and are good girls. Boys tend to have
a little bit more leniency when it comes to misbehavior.
Girls don't. So what we know is that early on
girls are recognizing that they need to restrain
their hyperactivity. And so what we find is it
goes inside. And so girls, and it varies through
what we're also seeing from the research in ADHD
is that as we go through different stages in
life, it presents slightly differently. So you
see in girls, we start to have more hyperactive
thoughts. The agitation is internal, not external.
So you might not be as fidgety physically. but
you're more fidgety emotionally. So we see that
agitation emotionally. So you see the teenage
girls, you know, getting really, really angry
and upset, struggling socially because they're
not quite picking up the cues in the same way.
They're not attending to the same things that
they need to. So that's what you see with ADHD
in girls is that they start to mask. from about
the age of 12, 13, 14. And they develop ways
of coping with this internal agitation, with
some of their forgetfulness, when some of their
difficulty regulating their attention, and they
develop ways of coping. And so then we fast forward
through life and you can see some women with
ADHD sort of become perfectionistic, have lots
of structure. We sometimes call it the ADHD piles.
of to -do lists. And they might create very rigid
structure that allows them to cope, to handle
some of what we call that executive functioning
deficits or difficulties. But then it gets to
a point in life, and that's why we're seeing
an increase in diagnosis around the age of 30
or 40, when the load just gets too high. It's
when we see that women are, you know, getting
higher up in their career, having children, you
know, multiple relationships. They may have been
through various marriages and life is just getting
really, really complicated. That's when they
seek help. And it's often help for anxiety and
depression, not for ADHD. That's what I'm seeing.
So I'm seeing women who present with really struggling
with perfectionism, burnout. Just their mood
is dropping and that's often because they've
had a life of self -criticism. What's wrong with
me that I'm always late? What's wrong with me
that I can't quite figure this out and I'm finding
myself working so hard but never feeling like
I'm enough? And that criticism accumulates and
it gets to a point where we start to feel depressed.
And so we see adult women with ADHD who present
more with anxiety and depression instead of ADHD.
But when we start to dig in, we realize that
these problems have been there forever. That
as a young girl, they were peddling so fast just
to keep up. And as an adult woman, they're now
tired and burning out and have had enough. Can
I ask a really obvious question? So first of
all, I want to be clear that ADHD is Attention
Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. And then I remember
back in the day, if you will, there was ADD,
Attention Deficit Disorder. When you're referring
to ADHD, are you referring to ADD interchangeably
or is that part of the DSM update that there
is no more ADD? Well, there's two types. You
can have the attention. or hyperactivity that
there's basically, essentially now we know that
ADD there's some people who present more with
attentional issues and I don't like to call it
a deficit. We're moving out of that. We're now
thinking more that it's an attention regulation
issue. I mean somebody with ADHD can hyper focus
incredibly well. So it's not an attention problem.
It's a problem of regulating attention. We're
attending to the wrong things. We're attending
to the thing that matters to us most versus not
being able to attend. So sort of if we look at
the diagnostic criteria, you know, lack of focus,
difficulty organizing, careless mistakes. But
often that can be attributed to the fact that
we're attending to certain cues and not others,
to certain interests and not others. So we do
have two subtypes. The attention subtype. and
the hyperactivity subtype and you can get obviously
they can have both subtypes or just leaning on
one or the other and with women we see that there's
more of the attention subtype only because hyperactivity
is seen well the diagnostic criteria looks at
it more externally when you speak to women who
have adhd and you say does your mind feel like
a popcorn machine like thoughts are just popping
away they'll go yeah And that's the hyperactivity
gone inside. Like there's the agitation that
they feel that often then results in emotional
dysregulation and frustration because they can't
quite handle their thinking. I think now I'm
just like starting to question myself like, oh
shit, am I ADHD? Do I have ADHD? Just because
my thought process is sometimes all over the
place. But then I wonder, is it ADHD? Is it just
because there's so much going on, then you've
got your so many things calling for your attention,
you know, you've got social media, you've got
your kids, you've got your family, you've got
work, got the podcast, there's so much stuff
going on. Could it just be that we've changed,
the kind of world that we live in has changed,
our bodies just haven't, our mind just hasn't
caught up to the current lifestyle that we're
living in? I do think that we are all quite overwhelmed.
Now, the difference with somebody who presents
with ADHD is that this isn't just a contextual
issue. Like, this isn't something that you're
just struggling with today. It's described as
a developmental condition in that you've always
had it. And I really love the movement that we're
having now in the world of psychology, this more
neuroaffirming, which we're looking at neurodivergence.
So as opposed to a disorder, we're thinking that
we're looking at brains being wired differently,
which is much more validating and compassionate.
So when we think about an ADHD brain under this
umbrella of neurodivergence, or the autistic
brain, or we have the epileptic brain is under
that umbrella as well, they're wired differently.
So they're driven by different things. So, and
I find that really helpful for my ADHD community.
To recognize that the ADHD brain and the, to
a large extent, the autistic brain is driven
by interest, by novelty, by stress and by challenge.
Now that's different to the neurotypical brain
that is driven by doing the right thing or driven
by a sense of belonging or doing what's expected.
The ADHD brain likes to be stimulated, which
means that One of the problems we have when there's
a lot going on is that the ADHDer will choose
to do what's novel, what's new, what's interesting,
what's challenging, what's stressful versus what
has to be done just because. Like your chores
or your admin. So you have an ADHD who can, you
know, pull off a fantastic podcast, but they'll
really struggle to do their taxes. or organize
the day -to -day pickups of the kids. So that's
quite different. So in terms of functioning,
we think of the overwhelm of the day -to -day
life that we have. Of course, it's hard to juggle
lots of things. Our brain, we all have limits.
But the ADHD brain is more than just struggling
to juggle. Like it will impact functioning. And
I think what's really important is to recognize
that the burnout piece, because that's what usually
brings clients to see me, is when they feel this
visceral burnout. Like the lady who came on our
podcast, Michaela Thomas, she talks about having
two states, meerkat and sloth. So when you're
in the meerkat, you're all excited, you get easily
distracted by the squirrel, everything is, you
know, sparkly, everything's exciting and sort
of You know, you've got a bit of a skip and a
buzz, but then you burn out and then you're like
a sloth. And my clients will describe the state
where they just cannot get up for anything. Like
nothing is worth it. And it's emotional because
often it comes with lots of self -criticism.
Like what's wrong with me? Why can't I just do
this small task? Everything feels unsurmountable.
But it's also deeply physical. Like they're exhausted.
And that's because they've just had probably
a period of hyperactivity and getting everything
done. And they're exhausted by that. So it's
kind of like a feast and a famine. And I think
that's different to the overwhelm of day -to
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wait to see what you make. You mentioned that
people with ADHD are driven by... dopamine or
stimulants or deadlines, whatever it is that
gets them motivated. Then that to me seems like
a chemical imbalance in the brain. So could you
explain how that could be happening or if it
is something that can be explained? I mean, I'm
not a neuroscientist. Pretend to be. We did just
have one on, so we'll get her in touch. Oh yeah,
I get them to speak about that. But there is
a dopamine hypothesis in that ADHD, because it's
driven by interest, is actually driven by dopamine.
And so what you'll see is the ADHD brain will
mine for dopamine. So that hyper -focus that
we see with the ADHDers is that they'll get really
excited by something. And it could be anything.
It could be You know, furniture painting. And
they'll paint every piece of furniture that has
happened to me personally. This sounds like a
very real life example. It is. Until there's
nothing brown in the house. And then I'm done.
And then I'll find something else that's sparkly
and new and exciting, right? And that's what
we call the dopamine hypothesis, because they
mine the dopamine until there's nothing left.
And then when there's nothing left, they can't
understand why they did all that. Like, what
was so interesting about this? Because there's
no more excitement left. It's no longer novel
or a challenge and no longer of interest. So
you're right. There is a dopamine. We talk about
the dopamine mining and it helps my clients to
understand their behaviors. Like, why is it that
I can find this so easy, but something else so
hard? And that Once we have that understanding,
there's a compassion that comes with it, which
I think is so important, but also it helps us
organize our day so that we keep the challenge
and the novelty driving some of the behaviors
that we find harder. So for example, you can
create, I have clients who time themselves doing
the dishes. Oh. That's a quite interesting idea.
That would literally motivate me zero, but I
can totally see how for the ADHD person this
could be a fun game. It's like, how quickly can
I do it today? Like creating a challenge in the
things that are most difficult. So it's like
gamifying things that could be mundane, which
will then give you something to feel excited
by. Yeah, that's very interesting. Yeah, it's
like using the what you know about the wiring
of your brain to your advantage to your advantage.
And I think everyone can benefit from that tip,
right? I think neurodivergent, neurotypical.
I think that everyone, you know, coming from
the lens of fitness and nutrition, which is which
is my profession. It's like I'm always telling
my clients to gamify an aspect of their fitness
and nutrition life because saying, OK, eat a
drink, a protein shake every day. OK, boring.
But what if? Every day you had a new recipe for
that protein shake and you woke up in the morning
and opened your inbox and it was like a completely
different recipe from yesterday, you know, and
it felt like something like a reward that you
got every morning as opposed to the drudgery
of the protein shake. You know, so I think we
can all benefit from exactly what you're saying.
Yeah, that's true. Making it exciting and interesting.
Yeah. Novelty. Novelty is a driver, I think.
Of course. Yeah. All sorts of mundane habits.
Absolutely. protein shakes. Can nutrition or
all lifestyle habits help people who are struggling
with ADHD or being neurodivergent in any way?
I mean, if we think about our cognitive functioning,
right? So from a diagnostic perspective, we know
that when we do you know, when we look at ADHD
as they struggle with their executive functioning.
And what is our executive functioning? Essentially,
it's the part of our brain which sits sort of
here in the front of our brain. And it is responsible
for everything from organizing and planning,
being able to predict, set goals. So it's a very
important part of our brain, but in the ADHD
brain, This part is under we talk about it being
under resourced. It's almost like it's like an
office that is running short of admin staff.
It's not my metaphor. I do like that. Yeah, I
wish it were. It's not mine. There's a fantastic
podcast called The Neurodivergent Woman. And
they came up with that metaphor. And it's fantastic.
So the idea is that we're under resourced in
that area, which means that we have to make decisions.
Who do we use? What do we use our admin support
for? And I think nutrition and self -care play
a part in our cognitive functioning. And so it
will help. So for example, I know clients who
use coffee, caffeine is phenomenal for the ADHD
brain until it's too much. How do you know how
much is too much? Jess is like, I'm instantly
worried. I think we know because we get over
agitated. So when we think about medication for
ADHD, some people use medication. And it's the
same function, much, much stronger than caffeine.
It's a stimulant. So often when I talk to my
ADHDers, I'll ask them about how they use caffeine
and dark chocolate. And they'll be like, oh,
I do use it to give me a bit of a step up to
get me ready for something. So you can use nutrition
in that way, but just to be mindful where it
goes too much, when we use too much of the stimulant,
or when we use food to slow us down, because
sometimes we can overeat. One of the presentations
we see often with ADHD is binge eating and bulimia.
Either it's because we've been very self -critical
about ourselves and we're using food to soothe
us, or we're impulsive and we just can't stop.
So we can see that certain foods can be a bit
triggering for the bulimia, for example, in the
binge eating, and then we have to be more mindful
about that. But to recognize that sometimes food
can help soothe, you know, having food that feels
a bit more like a comfort can be helpful. And
in terms of cognitive functioning, I think a
lot about sleep with ADHD, like we really need
to prioritize our sleep. Often ADHDs don't sleep
as much and they don't need as much. So be mindful
of how much you actually need. Because that will
help your functioning and your emotional regulation.
Because that's the other piece we see with ADHDs
with women, is they can have really quite explosive
anger. And if you haven't slept, that's even
worse. Or menopausal, perimenopause, just even
worse. Yeah. I mean, the hormonal piece is real
too. You mentioned a few kind of similar thematics
in the ADHD brain, right? So you mentioned kind
of being, you know, hyper focused on something
and then crashing into burnout. You mentioned
binge eating and then potentially purging or
perhaps going through a period of restriction,
right? So kind of this feast or famine, I believe,
is a language that you use. What type of cognitive
techniques do you use with clients to help them
bridge what I'm also seeing as the all or nothing
mindset, right? Either I'm super on or I'm so
off I can't get out of bed. Right. How do you
help them get into that gray area? When you're
in hyper focus and you're excited about something,
it's really hard to slow down. So there's a few
things that I do is I'll get people to journal
and think about what they're doing and how it's
working. So putting their, for example, if they're
really into a project, not starting the project
straight away. you know, at 5 a .m. in the morning.
Because they might just keep going the whole
day and neglect everything else. There's a technique
that we say, stop, think, do. Just take a moment
when you walk into a room, stop, think what you
need to, what is it that's most important that
you need to do in this moment? Do it. Don't leave
it till later. do it right now and so when we
have things that are novel and exciting I tell
people not to do that first thing to sort of
structure their day where they have the day peppered
with these exciting things but they do the things
that they have to do before because otherwise
they'll beat themselves up over not having done
whatever it might be the the food shopping or
Even parenting, one of the things that I find
really validating to say to my ADHD community
is that parenting can be painfully boring. Yeah,
and repetitive. You gotta get comfy in the repetition.
Yeah, and that's okay. Like we live in a society
where we're supposed to be joyous all the time
as parents, and it's really depleting. Chris,
my co -host, talks about that. You know, parenting
is depleting. So how are we going to restore
ourselves? And with an ADHD brain, it can be
particularly depleting because it's not novel.
It's incredibly repetitive. There's no challenge
and there's no reward. Nobody's telling you you're
doing a great job. Hey, hey, those waiting to
be parents get excited. Okay. This is what's
coming your way. So I think organizing your day,
creating structure, um, is really, really helpful
cognitively. The other piece that I love is the
self compassion. You know, once we get to know,
so part of the journey into exploring whether
you have ADHD, um, be it through a formal process
that I actually think can be very validating.
So when you go through the process of diagnosis,
even as an older adult it can be very validating
because as you do all the questionnaires and
the tests and you see wow this is really hard
for me no wonder I find it so difficult to do
admin or no wonder I feel like I'm so impulsive
like the tests will show so the process can be
very validating um and I think that or you can
just you know, read about it and see whether
you recognize yourself in the podcast like this
one or in, you know, the there's lots of good
quality and be mindful to look for good quality
material. But once you start to recognize yourself
and you can validate, wow, this is hard because
it is hard because these are things that I can't
do. Just like somebody who has, you know, any
other chronic condition like diabetes or struggles
with physical impairments. These are challenging
things for my brain to do. So having that self
-compassion reduces the stress load, which helps
us function cognitively. So self -compassion
is a superpower. I think it is for everybody.
But especially for the ADHD brain. So I was actually
going to ask whether it's worth finding out later
in life. I understand if you're a child in school,
maybe it can help them get to... get through
the education system, you know, because there's
just so much that you need to get through. And
it might give you that additional support that
you need. But I'm looking at myself and I'm thinking,
OK, am I? Do I have it? Maybe. I don't know.
But do I need to know now? I feel like I've gotten
through. Yeah, you've developed your coping strategies
around it, whether you have it or not. Exactly.
So I figured out what works for me. You know,
I'm getting through and I feel OK. Is it worth
finding out for sure? It depends where you're
at with it. So when I have clients who come to
me who've had, you know, a lifetime of anxiety
and depression, and often clients who have ADHD,
there's just this sense of there's something
inherently wrong with me that they've carried
their entire life. It's not just today. It's
not during this period of stress. It's something
they felt throughout their lives. And so understanding
what that piece is. is very validating and very
powerful. So it's not that there's something
inherently wrong with me. It's that I'm wired
differently. That I think differently. That when
I see something sparkly and new, I get so excited
that I need to follow it. And I forget about
the other things that are not as exciting. But
that's because my brain is wired like that. It's
not that there's something wrong with me. So
through the process of assessment, we can understand
how we're wired differently. And I think that
can be very validating. So is it worth it? It
depends. It depends how much you're struggling
with it. Self -identification is also incredibly
useful. I know a lot of people who've chosen
that path and that's been enough for them. But
some people want to really understand. how they're
thinking and making sense of the world. And that's
how the process of assessment can really help.
You mentioned medication earlier and stimulants.
Do you think that most people, all people need
to have medication or is it only for certain
people? What's your sort of thoughts on that?
Some people can really benefit from it. It depends
the level of dysfunction. It depends how much
you're struggling. So what we find with medication
really helps with focus. So if you find that,
you know, I've had clients that really procrastinate,
like procrastination is a big problem for them.
Often what we find with people who procrastinate
is that they'll procrastinate till the last minute.
And what, because it's a boring task and what
will happen last minute is stress goes up. And
as we know, the ADHD brain is driven by stress
and stress challenge. So we'll start the task
at 10 PM. So you get that little high. Exactly.
These are the people who are, I thrive under
pressure kind of. But the problem with doing
it at 10 p .m. and finishing at 3 a .m. is that
you don't do it well. So then comes in the self
-criticism. And then that's where moods, issues
happen. You beat yourself up and then you start
again, you procrastinate. Look, what a terrible
job I did last time. What's the point? Who cares?
10 p .m. again and we're in that cycle. So medication
can help to improve your focus in those moments.
Medication also helps with hyperactivity if you
have a lot of hyperactivity. So it kind of depends
and I'm an advocate of you know if you're really
struggling with this give it a go. It's not forever.
It's not the same as going on an antidepressant
medication where it takes weeks to see effects
and then it takes weeks to come off it, if not
months for some people. This is something that
you can try and see that the complexity with
the medication for ADHD is finding the right
dose. You have to find that sweet spot because
initially you can get quite agitated, struggle
with sleep. struggle with food, as in, you know,
you go off your food. So finding the right dose
can take a while, but coming off it doesn't give
you the same withdrawals that you do with other
medications like for anxiety and depression.
I've heard that using nutrition in the sense
that you are eating sort of whole foods, keeping
out the ultra processed foods, maybe even obviously
exercising, cold plunges, soreness, you know,
all of these sort of biohacking techniques that
people use to live longer can also help. Do you
think that's also the case? Have you seen that
with people who... who use lifestyle as a way
to manage some symptoms? I mean, I don't know
the research on it. I think that what I see in
my practice is that exercise is fantastic because
exercise gives you lots of endorphins and dopamine.
And that's the thing that will help us drive
and regulate our emotions. So exercise is definitely
very important and eating in such a way that
it doesn't affect your sleep. So what we see
is that we get very agitated because we overdo
it with caffeine and then we drink at night to
slow us down and then we don't sleep well. So
then we're back on the caffeine. I do see those
cycles or a lot of sugar to inevitably sort of
get us moving a bit faster, but then that has
a down. So I do think that these sort of peaks
and troughs can be influenced by food. I don't
know about the ice bath plunges. I don't know
about those pieces, but I have seen sleep and
food and exercise can be really important. You
talk about emotional dysregulation and I'm guessing
that can have a big impact on your relationships
as well. How does somebody with ADHD go through
a relationship and what sort of challenges do
they encounter? as you can imagine, it can be
quite complex. So from an early age, women with
ADHD, women with ADHD tend to be super empaths.
That's another fallacy. Like the idea that we,
if we have somebody who presents with ADHD and
even autism, that they don't empathize. That's
just absolutely wrong. They tend to be, because
they recognize that they have some difficulties
picking up cues. They tend to be tremendously
good at watching humans and they'll watch from
a very early age, hence the masking. The problem
with the masking is that it's very tiring. So
we know that ADHD is a very, very sensitive to
rejection. So this rejection sensitivity dysphoria
is real. It's a real problem. So the fear of
being rejected hits very, very deep. And so they'll
be from a very young age will be trying to see
if there's a risk of being rejected. So sometimes
we see ADHD girls being quite socially anxious
and trying to mask their anxiety or, you know,
being a little bit more the clown, you know,
trying to fit in. And that's because they're
trying to mask what they recognize is a type
of, it's a difference. They're slightly different.
They're more likely to say things, be impulsive
with what they say. And they notice that that's
different to the other girls in the class. that
perhaps are not saying things. So this level
of masking that goes on and this fear of being
rejected will really influence how we respond
in relationships. So then we fast forward and,
you know, we're now starting to have boyfriends
and partners. We're going to be incredibly anxious
about how they think about us. So we're masking.
We're not being our authentic selves in a relationship.
And we're wondering if they're going to stay
with us. Are they going to criticize us? Because
we will have had a long history of criticism,
right? Girls get, just like boys, what's wrong
with you? Why can't you just sit still? Why are
you always late? Can't you get yourself more
organized? Like there was somebody who actually
Michaela on our podcast quoted that by the age
of 10, they've had about 12 ,000 instances of
criticism. and that just keeps going. So you're
an adult woman, you're in a relationship and
it can be even with friendships and you're expecting
to be criticized because that's your history.
Your history tells you you get things wrong.
Your history tells you that you misunderstand
people, that people think you're weird or you're
different, you're quirky. So you're busy masking
and you're busy waiting to be rejected. So what
happens is that perhaps you do something in the
relationship and somebody responds to you, you
know, even maybe neutrally, but you misinterpret
it as they don't like me. It feels like a personal
attack. You're more likely to perceive it as
a personal attack. And then because of the ADHD
and because you've been sort of burrowing all
that sort of pain, there's more likely to be
an explosion of emotion. So what we see in relationships
is that many women talk to me about how angry
they get because their partner said, Hey, what
happened to dot, dot, dot, you know, where are
the keys? What happened to the plan of going
out for Sunday brunch? The woman will explode.
You're like, what do you mean? What are you saying
about me? And we'll get very, very upset. And
perhaps it is a neutral sort of jab, and perhaps
it's just a complaint and not a criticism, but
it will be internalized as a criticism. So this
will be a problem that I see. So getting easily
triggered by their partners, experiencing more
levels of criticism or interpreting it as criticism,
that tends to be a problem in relationships.
The other piece that's quite interesting is that
The ADHD woman is often a very busy woman. She
just doesn't sit still. Even in the evenings,
sitting down to watch Netflix, you'll be up and
about doing things. And that can be quite irritating
to partners. So that'll be a piece. But once
you know that that's what's happening, you can
say all of this to your partner, which is why
I think understanding whether you have ADHD can
be very powerful because it's a way to communicate
with your partner what's happening. I'm also
a couples therapist. The most important skill
in a relationship is the ability to talk. And
I don't believe there are any conversations that
we can't have with our partner as long as we
know how to have them. And so having that language
to go, you know, I have this rejection sensitivity.
So when I hear words like what happened to the
plan or why are we running late? Whatever it
might be. I take it very personally. It really
hits me hard. And what I need from you is for
you to say it more softly, whatever it might
be that you need, but to explain to your partner
that, you know, we're in it together. This is
teamwork. This is how it lands. I know it's not
your intention. Could you help me out here? And
the same with You know, I'm a big believer in
teamwork when it comes to admin. In the ADHD
world, we talk about time blindness, which I
love as a term. The ADHD brain just doesn't calculate
time the same way as in your typical brain. ADHDers
will try and squeeze things in with five minutes.
That actually is a task that should take 20.
And suddenly you're 20 minutes late and your
partner's like, I can't believe we're here again.
So this is where you can lean on each other.
And your partner can go, honey, we have five
minutes. You can't do anything in these five
minutes. So just come with me and let's get in
the car. And that's teamwork. Yeah. And I think
that's really important in relationships is to
recognize that we're all different. And some
of us are wired differently and we could do with
a little more support. And it sounds like, you
know, in that exact example, right? So you have
an ADHD partner and a neurotypical partner. What
if we are talking about two ADHD partners? Are
there different issues then that come to the
front? Sometimes it can be a really fantastic
partnership, especially if the topics of interest
are very similar, because there's nothing more
exciting than talking about your topic of interest.
Like if you have somebody who's an ADHDer or
autistic and you know their topic of interest,
you wouldn't make them happier than to talk about
that. And so you can be incredibly aligned if
you're too neurodivergent individuals in a partnership
because you know what it's like to talk about
the topic of interest, for example, or you know
how hard it is to organize. So there can be teamwork
in that too, a recognition that We're similar
in as much as we have very similar challenges
and how can we work it out together? Sometimes
I've seen that work really well because you don't
have to explain it as much. You kind of get it.
And I get it on the high end, if that makes sense,
like on the shared interest. And I'm thinking
of a couple that I know specifically who are
both very outwardly communicative about their
ADHD struggles. Right. But then, you know, my
question is always, then who's doing the admin?
Like, who is the one who, like, is the grounded
person? Because they're they they both I think
that's something that they express in their struggles
as a couple is like, it's all great. So they're
in the world of finance. Right. So they're like
really into the markets and they're really into
Bitcoin and they're really into that. But then
it's like at the end of the day, they look at
each other and it's like, did you actually, did
you buy the shares today? Like did you actually
pull the trigger on that investment? And it's
like, oh shit. And then the markets are closed,
you know? And it's like, oh, so like that last
bit of follow through was the missing piece.
And I think it's great example. I think that's
where you have to get external support. Like
I'm a big believer in recognizing our limitations
and working in the things that we're great at
and getting help for the things that we struggle
with. I think this is why I love my helper. Because
she has taken all of that stuff off my hands.
I don't have to think about it anymore. Since
we both work in the coaching field, I always
say, you can almost always tell a valuable coach
because they have a coach in some aspect of their
life. And I would say the same for therapists.
Really effective therapists often have... I feel
like therapists need therapists because they
take on so much. On a separate note, I heard
somewhere that everyone has a little bit of ADHD
or a little bit of neurodivergence. So is it
a case of you either have it or you don't have
it? Or is it a spectrum where you might have
it a little bit or you have it a lot? So in the
ADHD community, I would say, and the autistic
community, it's quite insulting to think of somebody
having a little bit of it because it can be really
quite challenging to have it. I think what we
all have a little bit of is difficulties. You
know, we've all got a executive functioning.
Some of us are better at it and some of us are
worse. I think if we think of ADHD and autism,
if we're talking about that too here, I think
you either have it or you don't. You're either
wired in this way or you're not. When you talk
to somebody with ADHD about what their moments
of burnout are like, that is serious. That is
real. Where they might not be able to get out
of bed because they have absolutely exhausted
themselves and you can't have a little bit of
that. To be diagnosed with ADHD, there has to
be an impact on functioning. That's real. Yeah.
So I guess for me, when people talk about a little
bit or that it's a fad, it's just trendy to have
ADHD, when you talk to the community, those that
have it, it's real. It's not trendy. It can be
really, really hard. And also something that
we haven't talked about and it's not talked about
a lot, the autistic research is far, far ahead
of the ADHD research in women. ADHD researchers
will catch up. But what we know is that there's
a lot of common, there's a lot of chronic health
conditions that come with ADHD and autism. Somebody,
Jennifer Kemp, who was also on our podcast, she
talks about, you know, autism is in every cell
of our body. So it's not just our cognitive functioning
that's impacted, our whole body is impacted.
And we're looking at that in the ADHD community,
too. We often see chronic fatigue. with ADHD.
We see immunity difficulties with chronic pain.
So it often comes with migraines. There's a whole
facet that comes along with the ADHD that can
also impact functioning. So I think what we have
a little bit of is perhaps a tendency to be more
excited by things, you know, struggle to plan,
struggle with cognitive functioning, but I don't
think we have a little bit of ADHD. What are
your thoughts on gut health and its relationship,
if there is a relationship to ADHD or autism
spectrum disorder? Yeah, there's a lot, there's
a lot in the... in the research world around
this. And that's really, really interesting because
we see so much correlation. A lot of people with
ADHD and autism have gut issues and have had
from the get go. In fact, when we look at young
children getting diagnosed, they've often had
reflux or gastric issues as little people. And
so I think that there's more and more being discovered
in that area. And we know that the gut holds
a lot of serotonin, which will influence mood,
which will influence our functioning in many,
many ways. And I'm really interested to see where
we go with it. Are there any myths about ADHD
that you'd like to bust? The one that you just
said about... You know, can I have a little bit
of it? I think is an important myth because it's
important to protect those that have a diagnosis
and that, you know, really do recognize the challenges
that they face. I think the other myth is that
women don't have it as much as men. I for me,
I've been in the in the world of psychology for
over 20 years. And I when I trained, it was boys.
you know, four to one, four boys for every girl.
That's changing. It's been a radical shift to
start looking at women. So these high achieving,
high performing women who, how have they kept
it together, has been through all this overcompensation
and really underneath it is the ADHD. And I think
that's a myth that we need to bust, that women
don't have ADHD and that girls don't have ADHD.
because I think there's a lot of suffering that
happens with undiagnosed women and girls. So
for anyone out there who either has ADHD or thinks
they may have ADHD, where can they go to find
out more? There is a few websites now, more and
more that are women. There's a lot of clinical
psychologists that are coming out as ADHD and
autistic and I think they're brilliant to follow
because they have good quality. research. So
one is Michaela Thomas from the Thomas Connection.
She's fantastic. She's in the UK. Jennifer Kemp
is in Australia. She does a lot of writing and
has done a lot of podcasts on it as well. There's
a few websites. There's the Neurodivergent Woman,
which is a podcast. And they also have a website
with some fantastic resources. There's also Embrace
Autism. which has some screeners as well that
women can use to see if they can self identify.
So I would seek support from psychologists, psychiatrists
in the area. If we're gonna sort of look through
social media and the internet, I would make sure
I'm looking at high quality content because this
is a big deal to be looking and exploring into.
ADHD. And we'll put all of this into the show
notes as well. And Emma, it has been absolutely
amazing having you here on the 40s Formula and
sharing all your insights about ADHD and neurodivergence.
But before we go, we do want to ask one final
question, and that is what's your 40s Formula,
especially for women who either are or think
they may be struggling with ADHD? What sort of
advice would you give them to help them thrive?
through this, despite this. I think we always
think about, you know, at the end of the day,
what truly matters are our relationships. So
really protecting relationships. But I think
that's something that mostly we're thinking about
more and more. I think the piece that's really
important is actually what we've touched on,
which is self -compassion. You know, learning
to be kind. As women, we've taken on so much
and we've been told that we need to take on more.
You know, to be valuable to society, we have
to carry the load at home. We have to carry the
load in relationships often. You know, some of
us are working women or even those of us who
are homemakers. We tend to carry the biggest
load. So self -compassion is very important and
learning to set boundaries. Learning to say no
and ask for help. Like there's nothing to be
ashamed of. Because if we can't support us and
we can't be well, we can't help anybody else.
So when we think about relationships, often I
think it just encourages women to subjugate more.
Like I have to do yet another thing. Well, let's
start saying no and thinking about what is it
that gives me a sense of purpose in this world.
What makes me feel good about me? And I think
self -compassion, you know, being kind helps
us make room for those questions. I think that's
amazing. Yeah, it's beautiful. I think everyone
can take on a little bit of self -compassion,
for sure. Thank you so much, Emma. It's been
wonderful having you here. Thank you. Thank you
very much. Guys, you know we love coffee. And
if you want to show us some love, you know, you
can always get us one. Just visit buymeacoffee
.com slash the forties formula. Cheers. Before
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empowering conversations with inspiring guests.
Bye! I think that's evolution for you. Keeps
us going. Otherwise humanity would have ended.
Oh, good. Yeah. You're right. Long time ago.
Yeah. We wouldn't have time to actually have
babies.