WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.160 we're looking at brains being wired differently, 00:00:02.259 --> 00:00:04.679 which is much more validating and compassionate. 00:00:05.179 --> 00:00:09.019 The ADHD brain, and to a large extent the autistic 00:00:09.019 --> 00:00:14.039 brain, is driven by interest, by novelty, by 00:00:14.039 --> 00:00:17.100 stress, and by challenge. That's different to 00:00:17.100 --> 00:00:19.579 the neurotypical brain that is driven by doing 00:00:19.579 --> 00:00:23.780 the right thing. The ADHD brain likes to be stimulated. 00:00:24.030 --> 00:00:26.910 It's hard to juggle lots of things. Our brain, 00:00:26.910 --> 00:00:31.250 we all have limits. But the ADHD brain is more 00:00:31.250 --> 00:00:50.570 than just struggling to juggle. Hey, and welcome 00:00:50.570 --> 00:00:53.350 to the 40s Formula, your go -to place for insightful 00:00:53.350 --> 00:00:55.829 discussions on navigating the 40s and thriving 00:00:55.829 --> 00:00:58.829 in this transformative decade. We're your hosts, 00:00:59.170 --> 00:01:01.490 Jasmine and Amanda, two women that are passionate 00:01:01.490 --> 00:01:03.409 about exploring the challenges and adventures 00:01:03.409 --> 00:01:05.909 that come with turning 40 and what lies ahead. 00:01:14.409 --> 00:01:17.329 Dr. Emma Waddington is a UK -trained clinical 00:01:17.329 --> 00:01:19.730 psychologist with 20 years of experience in mental 00:01:19.730 --> 00:01:22.510 health. She is the founder and clinical director 00:01:22.510 --> 00:01:25.189 of Us Therapy, where she works with individuals, 00:01:25.670 --> 00:01:28.349 couples, children and families helping them navigate 00:01:28.349 --> 00:01:31.829 challenges such as anxiety, perfectionism, depression, 00:01:32.409 --> 00:01:35.069 sleep disorders, anger management and behavioural 00:01:35.069 --> 00:01:38.049 difficulties. She draws on evidence -based approaches 00:01:38.049 --> 00:01:40.909 including cognitive behavioural therapy and acceptance 00:01:40.909 --> 00:01:43.920 and commitment therapy. Emma has a particular 00:01:43.920 --> 00:01:47.000 interest in ADHD women, recognising how often 00:01:47.000 --> 00:01:49.819 it is undiagnosed and how frequently it coexists 00:01:49.819 --> 00:01:52.840 with anxiety. She is passionate about increasing 00:01:52.840 --> 00:01:55.939 awareness and understanding of ADHD, especially 00:01:55.939 --> 00:01:57.980 in populations where it has historically been 00:01:57.980 --> 00:02:00.700 overlooked. Before moving into private practice, 00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:03.359 Emma was an adjunct associate professor at the 00:02:03.359 --> 00:02:05.280 National University of Singapore's Master of 00:02:05.280 --> 00:02:07.700 Clinical Psychology programme, where she taught 00:02:07.700 --> 00:02:09.919 and mentored aspiring psychologists for five 00:02:09.919 --> 00:02:13.729 years. Emma is also a podcast host and author, 00:02:14.189 --> 00:02:17.090 dedicated to making psychological insights accessible 00:02:17.090 --> 00:02:20.169 and engaging. Having moved eight times and lived 00:02:20.169 --> 00:02:22.889 in five countries before settling in the UK for 00:02:22.889 --> 00:02:26.210 her studies, she understands firsthand the complexities 00:02:26.210 --> 00:02:29.250 of growing up across cultures. Holding both British 00:02:29.250 --> 00:02:31.909 and Spanish nationalities, she brings a global 00:02:31.909 --> 00:02:34.349 perspective to her work, particularly in supporting 00:02:34.349 --> 00:02:37.919 the expatriates and third culture families. So 00:02:37.919 --> 00:02:39.900 today on The 40s Formula we're joined by Emma 00:02:39.900 --> 00:02:42.159 Waddington, a clinical psychologist and we are 00:02:42.159 --> 00:02:45.020 going to be talking about ADHD in women. When 00:02:45.020 --> 00:02:47.680 it comes to ADHD I think the pitch that gets 00:02:47.680 --> 00:02:49.800 painted in most people's mind is a hyperactive 00:02:49.800 --> 00:02:52.819 little boy who is being disruptive in class. 00:02:53.479 --> 00:02:57.979 But a lot of women and girls don't get the diagnosis 00:02:57.979 --> 00:03:00.400 they need. Why do you think that is Emma? For 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:03.599 a very long time we've all thought of ADHD as 00:03:03.599 --> 00:03:07.400 the boy who has ants in their pants. And actually 00:03:07.400 --> 00:03:10.180 there's been recent, we've got a manual called 00:03:10.180 --> 00:03:12.719 the Diagnostics Statistical Manual, the DSM, 00:03:12.939 --> 00:03:16.500 which as psychologists we use to diagnose. And 00:03:16.500 --> 00:03:18.620 the last edition, which is the fifth and they're 00:03:18.620 --> 00:03:21.360 now doing a revised edition, changed some of 00:03:21.360 --> 00:03:24.680 the diagnoses and made it much broader. And that 00:03:24.680 --> 00:03:27.080 has allowed for us to think about women more. 00:03:27.699 --> 00:03:29.699 But most of the research originally was done 00:03:29.699 --> 00:03:34.419 on boys and men, like most of the DSM. The original 00:03:34.419 --> 00:03:37.360 research was on men. And so when we thought of 00:03:37.360 --> 00:03:40.639 ADHD, we're really looking at the diagnostic 00:03:40.639 --> 00:03:44.960 criteria as it pertains to men. And more recently, 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:47.759 we've recognised that women are quite different 00:03:47.759 --> 00:03:51.620 when they present with ADHD and girls. And partly 00:03:51.620 --> 00:03:54.340 we think about it from the perspective of socialising 00:03:54.340 --> 00:03:57.620 girls. From a young age, we're told to be good 00:03:57.620 --> 00:04:02.439 girls, to behave. So girls are very good at what 00:04:02.439 --> 00:04:05.620 we call masking. So kind of like camouflaging. 00:04:05.930 --> 00:04:10.270 hiding some of the hyperactivity. So quite early 00:04:10.270 --> 00:04:13.389 on girls realize that they can't be agitated 00:04:13.389 --> 00:04:15.909 and running around and in classroom teachers 00:04:15.909 --> 00:04:18.769 recognize the girls that sit quietly and do their 00:04:18.769 --> 00:04:21.970 worksheets and are good girls. Boys tend to have 00:04:21.970 --> 00:04:27.029 a little bit more leniency when it comes to misbehavior. 00:04:27.329 --> 00:04:30.790 Girls don't. So what we know is that early on 00:04:30.790 --> 00:04:34.310 girls are recognizing that they need to restrain 00:04:34.310 --> 00:04:37.550 their hyperactivity. And so what we find is it 00:04:37.550 --> 00:04:42.829 goes inside. And so girls, and it varies through 00:04:42.829 --> 00:04:45.310 what we're also seeing from the research in ADHD 00:04:45.310 --> 00:04:48.230 is that as we go through different stages in 00:04:48.230 --> 00:04:52.490 life, it presents slightly differently. So you 00:04:52.490 --> 00:04:56.629 see in girls, we start to have more hyperactive 00:04:56.629 --> 00:05:00.889 thoughts. The agitation is internal, not external. 00:05:01.370 --> 00:05:04.930 So you might not be as fidgety physically. but 00:05:04.930 --> 00:05:07.870 you're more fidgety emotionally. So we see that 00:05:07.870 --> 00:05:10.389 agitation emotionally. So you see the teenage 00:05:10.389 --> 00:05:12.970 girls, you know, getting really, really angry 00:05:12.970 --> 00:05:17.050 and upset, struggling socially because they're 00:05:17.050 --> 00:05:20.670 not quite picking up the cues in the same way. 00:05:20.709 --> 00:05:22.829 They're not attending to the same things that 00:05:22.829 --> 00:05:25.910 they need to. So that's what you see with ADHD 00:05:25.910 --> 00:05:29.569 in girls is that they start to mask. from about 00:05:29.569 --> 00:05:33.350 the age of 12, 13, 14. And they develop ways 00:05:33.350 --> 00:05:36.990 of coping with this internal agitation, with 00:05:36.990 --> 00:05:39.769 some of their forgetfulness, when some of their 00:05:39.769 --> 00:05:42.870 difficulty regulating their attention, and they 00:05:42.870 --> 00:05:46.389 develop ways of coping. And so then we fast forward 00:05:46.389 --> 00:05:49.610 through life and you can see some women with 00:05:49.610 --> 00:05:53.370 ADHD sort of become perfectionistic, have lots 00:05:53.370 --> 00:05:57.810 of structure. We sometimes call it the ADHD piles. 00:05:58.589 --> 00:06:04.189 of to -do lists. And they might create very rigid 00:06:04.189 --> 00:06:06.769 structure that allows them to cope, to handle 00:06:06.769 --> 00:06:09.810 some of what we call that executive functioning 00:06:09.810 --> 00:06:14.589 deficits or difficulties. But then it gets to 00:06:14.589 --> 00:06:16.810 a point in life, and that's why we're seeing 00:06:16.810 --> 00:06:19.689 an increase in diagnosis around the age of 30 00:06:19.689 --> 00:06:24.769 or 40, when the load just gets too high. It's 00:06:24.769 --> 00:06:27.709 when we see that women are, you know, getting 00:06:27.709 --> 00:06:32.430 higher up in their career, having children, you 00:06:32.430 --> 00:06:34.730 know, multiple relationships. They may have been 00:06:34.730 --> 00:06:37.970 through various marriages and life is just getting 00:06:37.970 --> 00:06:41.470 really, really complicated. That's when they 00:06:41.470 --> 00:06:44.050 seek help. And it's often help for anxiety and 00:06:44.050 --> 00:06:47.050 depression, not for ADHD. That's what I'm seeing. 00:06:47.629 --> 00:06:51.310 So I'm seeing women who present with really struggling 00:06:51.310 --> 00:06:55.069 with perfectionism, burnout. Just their mood 00:06:55.069 --> 00:06:58.370 is dropping and that's often because they've 00:06:58.370 --> 00:07:01.850 had a life of self -criticism. What's wrong with 00:07:01.850 --> 00:07:05.370 me that I'm always late? What's wrong with me 00:07:05.370 --> 00:07:07.990 that I can't quite figure this out and I'm finding 00:07:07.990 --> 00:07:10.529 myself working so hard but never feeling like 00:07:10.529 --> 00:07:15.350 I'm enough? And that criticism accumulates and 00:07:15.350 --> 00:07:18.170 it gets to a point where we start to feel depressed. 00:07:18.639 --> 00:07:22.360 And so we see adult women with ADHD who present 00:07:22.360 --> 00:07:25.220 more with anxiety and depression instead of ADHD. 00:07:25.560 --> 00:07:29.579 But when we start to dig in, we realize that 00:07:29.579 --> 00:07:32.060 these problems have been there forever. That 00:07:32.060 --> 00:07:34.959 as a young girl, they were peddling so fast just 00:07:34.959 --> 00:07:39.279 to keep up. And as an adult woman, they're now 00:07:39.279 --> 00:07:42.319 tired and burning out and have had enough. Can 00:07:42.319 --> 00:07:44.959 I ask a really obvious question? So first of 00:07:44.959 --> 00:07:47.779 all, I want to be clear that ADHD is Attention 00:07:47.779 --> 00:07:50.899 Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. And then I remember 00:07:50.899 --> 00:07:54.100 back in the day, if you will, there was ADD, 00:07:54.160 --> 00:07:57.720 Attention Deficit Disorder. When you're referring 00:07:57.720 --> 00:08:01.120 to ADHD, are you referring to ADD interchangeably 00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:03.360 or is that part of the DSM update that there 00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:06.980 is no more ADD? Well, there's two types. You 00:08:06.980 --> 00:08:11.160 can have the attention. or hyperactivity that 00:08:11.160 --> 00:08:14.519 there's basically, essentially now we know that 00:08:14.519 --> 00:08:17.079 ADD there's some people who present more with 00:08:17.079 --> 00:08:19.740 attentional issues and I don't like to call it 00:08:19.740 --> 00:08:23.079 a deficit. We're moving out of that. We're now 00:08:23.079 --> 00:08:25.600 thinking more that it's an attention regulation 00:08:25.600 --> 00:08:29.779 issue. I mean somebody with ADHD can hyper focus 00:08:29.779 --> 00:08:33.720 incredibly well. So it's not an attention problem. 00:08:34.460 --> 00:08:37.179 It's a problem of regulating attention. We're 00:08:37.179 --> 00:08:40.159 attending to the wrong things. We're attending 00:08:40.159 --> 00:08:44.419 to the thing that matters to us most versus not 00:08:44.419 --> 00:08:46.720 being able to attend. So sort of if we look at 00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:50.000 the diagnostic criteria, you know, lack of focus, 00:08:50.379 --> 00:08:53.500 difficulty organizing, careless mistakes. But 00:08:53.500 --> 00:08:55.759 often that can be attributed to the fact that 00:08:55.759 --> 00:08:58.120 we're attending to certain cues and not others, 00:08:58.519 --> 00:09:02.059 to certain interests and not others. So we do 00:09:02.059 --> 00:09:05.450 have two subtypes. The attention subtype. and 00:09:05.450 --> 00:09:08.190 the hyperactivity subtype and you can get obviously 00:09:08.190 --> 00:09:10.990 they can have both subtypes or just leaning on 00:09:10.990 --> 00:09:13.870 one or the other and with women we see that there's 00:09:13.870 --> 00:09:18.649 more of the attention subtype only because hyperactivity 00:09:18.649 --> 00:09:21.710 is seen well the diagnostic criteria looks at 00:09:21.710 --> 00:09:25.330 it more externally when you speak to women who 00:09:25.330 --> 00:09:28.549 have adhd and you say does your mind feel like 00:09:28.549 --> 00:09:31.549 a popcorn machine like thoughts are just popping 00:09:31.549 --> 00:09:35.279 away they'll go yeah And that's the hyperactivity 00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:37.960 gone inside. Like there's the agitation that 00:09:37.960 --> 00:09:42.000 they feel that often then results in emotional 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:45.019 dysregulation and frustration because they can't 00:09:45.019 --> 00:09:47.799 quite handle their thinking. I think now I'm 00:09:47.799 --> 00:09:49.860 just like starting to question myself like, oh 00:09:49.860 --> 00:09:53.820 shit, am I ADHD? Do I have ADHD? Just because 00:09:53.820 --> 00:09:55.919 my thought process is sometimes all over the 00:09:55.919 --> 00:10:00.389 place. But then I wonder, is it ADHD? Is it just 00:10:00.389 --> 00:10:02.629 because there's so much going on, then you've 00:10:02.629 --> 00:10:05.409 got your so many things calling for your attention, 00:10:05.629 --> 00:10:06.850 you know, you've got social media, you've got 00:10:06.850 --> 00:10:09.190 your kids, you've got your family, you've got 00:10:09.190 --> 00:10:11.889 work, got the podcast, there's so much stuff 00:10:11.889 --> 00:10:17.169 going on. Could it just be that we've changed, 00:10:17.269 --> 00:10:19.049 the kind of world that we live in has changed, 00:10:19.529 --> 00:10:21.490 our bodies just haven't, our mind just hasn't 00:10:21.490 --> 00:10:23.570 caught up to the current lifestyle that we're 00:10:23.570 --> 00:10:27.169 living in? I do think that we are all quite overwhelmed. 00:10:27.939 --> 00:10:30.340 Now, the difference with somebody who presents 00:10:30.340 --> 00:10:34.019 with ADHD is that this isn't just a contextual 00:10:34.019 --> 00:10:36.340 issue. Like, this isn't something that you're 00:10:36.340 --> 00:10:40.240 just struggling with today. It's described as 00:10:40.240 --> 00:10:43.179 a developmental condition in that you've always 00:10:43.179 --> 00:10:46.379 had it. And I really love the movement that we're 00:10:46.379 --> 00:10:50.960 having now in the world of psychology, this more 00:10:50.960 --> 00:10:54.899 neuroaffirming, which we're looking at neurodivergence. 00:10:55.710 --> 00:10:59.850 So as opposed to a disorder, we're thinking that 00:10:59.850 --> 00:11:02.029 we're looking at brains being wired differently, 00:11:02.090 --> 00:11:04.549 which is much more validating and compassionate. 00:11:05.110 --> 00:11:08.590 So when we think about an ADHD brain under this 00:11:08.590 --> 00:11:11.669 umbrella of neurodivergence, or the autistic 00:11:11.669 --> 00:11:14.429 brain, or we have the epileptic brain is under 00:11:14.429 --> 00:11:17.090 that umbrella as well, they're wired differently. 00:11:17.090 --> 00:11:21.389 So they're driven by different things. So, and 00:11:21.389 --> 00:11:24.889 I find that really helpful for my ADHD community. 00:11:25.259 --> 00:11:30.019 To recognize that the ADHD brain and the, to 00:11:30.019 --> 00:11:32.399 a large extent, the autistic brain is driven 00:11:32.399 --> 00:11:38.179 by interest, by novelty, by stress and by challenge. 00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:41.639 Now that's different to the neurotypical brain 00:11:41.639 --> 00:11:45.279 that is driven by doing the right thing or driven 00:11:45.279 --> 00:11:49.019 by a sense of belonging or doing what's expected. 00:11:49.539 --> 00:11:53.500 The ADHD brain likes to be stimulated, which 00:11:53.500 --> 00:11:56.370 means that One of the problems we have when there's 00:11:56.370 --> 00:11:59.570 a lot going on is that the ADHDer will choose 00:11:59.570 --> 00:12:02.929 to do what's novel, what's new, what's interesting, 00:12:02.990 --> 00:12:06.330 what's challenging, what's stressful versus what 00:12:06.330 --> 00:12:09.990 has to be done just because. Like your chores 00:12:09.990 --> 00:12:14.070 or your admin. So you have an ADHD who can, you 00:12:14.070 --> 00:12:18.029 know, pull off a fantastic podcast, but they'll 00:12:18.029 --> 00:12:22.809 really struggle to do their taxes. or organize 00:12:22.809 --> 00:12:26.009 the day -to -day pickups of the kids. So that's 00:12:26.009 --> 00:12:28.049 quite different. So in terms of functioning, 00:12:28.870 --> 00:12:31.809 we think of the overwhelm of the day -to -day 00:12:31.809 --> 00:12:35.230 life that we have. Of course, it's hard to juggle 00:12:35.230 --> 00:12:38.190 lots of things. Our brain, we all have limits. 00:12:38.649 --> 00:12:42.710 But the ADHD brain is more than just struggling 00:12:42.710 --> 00:12:46.009 to juggle. Like it will impact functioning. And 00:12:46.009 --> 00:12:49.169 I think what's really important is to recognize 00:12:49.169 --> 00:12:55.879 that the burnout piece, because that's what usually 00:12:55.879 --> 00:13:00.279 brings clients to see me, is when they feel this 00:13:00.279 --> 00:13:03.799 visceral burnout. Like the lady who came on our 00:13:03.799 --> 00:13:06.600 podcast, Michaela Thomas, she talks about having 00:13:06.600 --> 00:13:09.980 two states, meerkat and sloth. So when you're 00:13:09.980 --> 00:13:13.259 in the meerkat, you're all excited, you get easily 00:13:13.259 --> 00:13:15.779 distracted by the squirrel, everything is, you 00:13:15.779 --> 00:13:18.700 know, sparkly, everything's exciting and sort 00:13:18.700 --> 00:13:20.639 of You know, you've got a bit of a skip and a 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:23.759 buzz, but then you burn out and then you're like 00:13:23.759 --> 00:13:27.000 a sloth. And my clients will describe the state 00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:30.019 where they just cannot get up for anything. Like 00:13:30.019 --> 00:13:33.899 nothing is worth it. And it's emotional because 00:13:33.899 --> 00:13:36.059 often it comes with lots of self -criticism. 00:13:36.299 --> 00:13:38.580 Like what's wrong with me? Why can't I just do 00:13:38.580 --> 00:13:43.279 this small task? Everything feels unsurmountable. 00:13:44.100 --> 00:13:47.539 But it's also deeply physical. Like they're exhausted. 00:13:48.169 --> 00:13:50.669 And that's because they've just had probably 00:13:50.669 --> 00:13:54.169 a period of hyperactivity and getting everything 00:13:54.169 --> 00:13:58.309 done. And they're exhausted by that. So it's 00:13:58.309 --> 00:14:02.379 kind of like a feast and a famine. And I think 00:14:02.379 --> 00:14:04.480 that's different to the overwhelm of day -to 00:14:04.480 --> 00:14:06.840 -day life. 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It can be a photo, 00:14:35.899 --> 00:14:37.940 a reel, and don't worry if your account's private, 00:14:38.240 --> 00:14:40.440 just drop us a DM and we'll count your entry. 00:14:40.700 --> 00:14:42.860 We'll be picking one lucky winner at the end 00:14:42.860 --> 00:14:44.980 of the season, so make sure to submit all those 00:14:44.980 --> 00:14:47.639 delicious meals before June 5th. It's time to 00:14:47.639 --> 00:14:49.740 jump in the kitchen and get cooking, and we cannot 00:14:49.740 --> 00:14:53.120 wait to see what you make. You mentioned that 00:14:53.120 --> 00:14:56.700 people with ADHD are driven by... dopamine or 00:14:56.700 --> 00:14:59.200 stimulants or deadlines, whatever it is that 00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:05.399 gets them motivated. Then that to me seems like 00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:09.080 a chemical imbalance in the brain. So could you 00:15:09.080 --> 00:15:13.480 explain how that could be happening or if it 00:15:13.480 --> 00:15:15.860 is something that can be explained? I mean, I'm 00:15:15.860 --> 00:15:20.720 not a neuroscientist. Pretend to be. We did just 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:22.259 have one on, so we'll get her in touch. Oh yeah, 00:15:22.600 --> 00:15:25.039 I get them to speak about that. But there is 00:15:25.039 --> 00:15:28.879 a dopamine hypothesis in that ADHD, because it's 00:15:28.879 --> 00:15:32.220 driven by interest, is actually driven by dopamine. 00:15:32.899 --> 00:15:36.340 And so what you'll see is the ADHD brain will 00:15:36.340 --> 00:15:40.139 mine for dopamine. So that hyper -focus that 00:15:40.139 --> 00:15:43.039 we see with the ADHDers is that they'll get really 00:15:43.039 --> 00:15:46.519 excited by something. And it could be anything. 00:15:46.639 --> 00:15:51.399 It could be You know, furniture painting. And 00:15:51.399 --> 00:15:53.340 they'll paint every piece of furniture that has 00:15:53.340 --> 00:15:56.740 happened to me personally. This sounds like a 00:15:56.740 --> 00:15:59.919 very real life example. It is. Until there's 00:15:59.919 --> 00:16:02.740 nothing brown in the house. And then I'm done. 00:16:03.179 --> 00:16:05.340 And then I'll find something else that's sparkly 00:16:05.340 --> 00:16:07.279 and new and exciting, right? And that's what 00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:10.019 we call the dopamine hypothesis, because they 00:16:10.019 --> 00:16:12.659 mine the dopamine until there's nothing left. 00:16:13.289 --> 00:16:15.690 And then when there's nothing left, they can't 00:16:15.690 --> 00:16:18.230 understand why they did all that. Like, what 00:16:18.230 --> 00:16:20.830 was so interesting about this? Because there's 00:16:20.830 --> 00:16:23.409 no more excitement left. It's no longer novel 00:16:23.409 --> 00:16:27.309 or a challenge and no longer of interest. So 00:16:27.309 --> 00:16:29.409 you're right. There is a dopamine. We talk about 00:16:29.409 --> 00:16:32.830 the dopamine mining and it helps my clients to 00:16:32.830 --> 00:16:35.889 understand their behaviors. Like, why is it that 00:16:35.889 --> 00:16:40.070 I can find this so easy, but something else so 00:16:40.070 --> 00:16:43.990 hard? And that Once we have that understanding, 00:16:44.149 --> 00:16:45.830 there's a compassion that comes with it, which 00:16:45.830 --> 00:16:48.710 I think is so important, but also it helps us 00:16:48.710 --> 00:16:52.230 organize our day so that we keep the challenge 00:16:52.230 --> 00:16:55.169 and the novelty driving some of the behaviors 00:16:55.169 --> 00:16:58.710 that we find harder. So for example, you can 00:16:58.710 --> 00:17:01.669 create, I have clients who time themselves doing 00:17:01.669 --> 00:17:05.579 the dishes. Oh. That's a quite interesting idea. 00:17:05.579 --> 00:17:07.619 That would literally motivate me zero, but I 00:17:07.619 --> 00:17:10.420 can totally see how for the ADHD person this 00:17:10.420 --> 00:17:12.859 could be a fun game. It's like, how quickly can 00:17:12.859 --> 00:17:16.640 I do it today? Like creating a challenge in the 00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:19.819 things that are most difficult. So it's like 00:17:19.819 --> 00:17:22.460 gamifying things that could be mundane, which 00:17:22.460 --> 00:17:26.400 will then give you something to feel excited 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:29.210 by. Yeah, that's very interesting. Yeah, it's 00:17:29.210 --> 00:17:31.109 like using the what you know about the wiring 00:17:31.109 --> 00:17:34.009 of your brain to your advantage to your advantage. 00:17:34.009 --> 00:17:36.250 And I think everyone can benefit from that tip, 00:17:36.250 --> 00:17:38.150 right? I think neurodivergent, neurotypical. 00:17:38.430 --> 00:17:40.269 I think that everyone, you know, coming from 00:17:40.269 --> 00:17:42.170 the lens of fitness and nutrition, which is which 00:17:42.170 --> 00:17:44.549 is my profession. It's like I'm always telling 00:17:44.549 --> 00:17:47.410 my clients to gamify an aspect of their fitness 00:17:47.410 --> 00:17:50.349 and nutrition life because saying, OK, eat a 00:17:50.349 --> 00:17:53.309 drink, a protein shake every day. OK, boring. 00:17:53.789 --> 00:17:56.559 But what if? Every day you had a new recipe for 00:17:56.559 --> 00:17:58.700 that protein shake and you woke up in the morning 00:17:58.700 --> 00:18:00.859 and opened your inbox and it was like a completely 00:18:00.859 --> 00:18:02.660 different recipe from yesterday, you know, and 00:18:02.660 --> 00:18:04.819 it felt like something like a reward that you 00:18:04.819 --> 00:18:06.859 got every morning as opposed to the drudgery 00:18:06.859 --> 00:18:09.400 of the protein shake. You know, so I think we 00:18:09.400 --> 00:18:11.380 can all benefit from exactly what you're saying. 00:18:11.400 --> 00:18:14.400 Yeah, that's true. Making it exciting and interesting. 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:17.079 Yeah. Novelty. Novelty is a driver, I think. 00:18:17.400 --> 00:18:19.839 Of course. Yeah. All sorts of mundane habits. 00:18:21.720 --> 00:18:27.319 Absolutely. protein shakes. Can nutrition or 00:18:27.319 --> 00:18:32.079 all lifestyle habits help people who are struggling 00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:36.539 with ADHD or being neurodivergent in any way? 00:18:36.779 --> 00:18:39.200 I mean, if we think about our cognitive functioning, 00:18:39.619 --> 00:18:43.759 right? So from a diagnostic perspective, we know 00:18:43.759 --> 00:18:46.680 that when we do you know, when we look at ADHD 00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:48.779 as they struggle with their executive functioning. 00:18:49.240 --> 00:18:51.559 And what is our executive functioning? Essentially, 00:18:51.559 --> 00:18:54.200 it's the part of our brain which sits sort of 00:18:54.200 --> 00:18:58.500 here in the front of our brain. And it is responsible 00:18:58.500 --> 00:19:01.619 for everything from organizing and planning, 00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:08.299 being able to predict, set goals. So it's a very 00:19:08.299 --> 00:19:10.700 important part of our brain, but in the ADHD 00:19:10.700 --> 00:19:15.130 brain, This part is under we talk about it being 00:19:15.130 --> 00:19:17.230 under resourced. It's almost like it's like an 00:19:17.230 --> 00:19:20.109 office that is running short of admin staff. 00:19:20.210 --> 00:19:23.109 It's not my metaphor. I do like that. Yeah, I 00:19:23.109 --> 00:19:25.450 wish it were. It's not mine. There's a fantastic 00:19:25.450 --> 00:19:28.130 podcast called The Neurodivergent Woman. And 00:19:28.130 --> 00:19:31.369 they came up with that metaphor. And it's fantastic. 00:19:31.490 --> 00:19:34.309 So the idea is that we're under resourced in 00:19:34.309 --> 00:19:38.190 that area, which means that we have to make decisions. 00:19:38.329 --> 00:19:40.529 Who do we use? What do we use our admin support 00:19:40.529 --> 00:19:46.549 for? And I think nutrition and self -care play 00:19:46.549 --> 00:19:48.930 a part in our cognitive functioning. And so it 00:19:48.930 --> 00:19:53.069 will help. So for example, I know clients who 00:19:53.069 --> 00:19:56.869 use coffee, caffeine is phenomenal for the ADHD 00:19:56.869 --> 00:20:00.630 brain until it's too much. How do you know how 00:20:00.630 --> 00:20:02.650 much is too much? Jess is like, I'm instantly 00:20:02.650 --> 00:20:05.970 worried. I think we know because we get over 00:20:05.970 --> 00:20:09.160 agitated. So when we think about medication for 00:20:09.160 --> 00:20:13.440 ADHD, some people use medication. And it's the 00:20:13.440 --> 00:20:16.380 same function, much, much stronger than caffeine. 00:20:16.660 --> 00:20:20.960 It's a stimulant. So often when I talk to my 00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:23.440 ADHDers, I'll ask them about how they use caffeine 00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:26.859 and dark chocolate. And they'll be like, oh, 00:20:27.259 --> 00:20:31.740 I do use it to give me a bit of a step up to 00:20:31.740 --> 00:20:36.339 get me ready for something. So you can use nutrition 00:20:36.339 --> 00:20:38.660 in that way, but just to be mindful where it 00:20:38.660 --> 00:20:42.420 goes too much, when we use too much of the stimulant, 00:20:42.539 --> 00:20:46.059 or when we use food to slow us down, because 00:20:46.059 --> 00:20:51.559 sometimes we can overeat. One of the presentations 00:20:51.559 --> 00:20:55.220 we see often with ADHD is binge eating and bulimia. 00:20:56.200 --> 00:20:58.200 Either it's because we've been very self -critical 00:20:58.200 --> 00:21:00.319 about ourselves and we're using food to soothe 00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:03.759 us, or we're impulsive and we just can't stop. 00:21:04.039 --> 00:21:07.079 So we can see that certain foods can be a bit 00:21:07.079 --> 00:21:10.059 triggering for the bulimia, for example, in the 00:21:10.059 --> 00:21:12.079 binge eating, and then we have to be more mindful 00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:15.680 about that. But to recognize that sometimes food 00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:19.099 can help soothe, you know, having food that feels 00:21:19.099 --> 00:21:24.259 a bit more like a comfort can be helpful. And 00:21:24.259 --> 00:21:26.339 in terms of cognitive functioning, I think a 00:21:26.339 --> 00:21:30.079 lot about sleep with ADHD, like we really need 00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:33.769 to prioritize our sleep. Often ADHDs don't sleep 00:21:33.769 --> 00:21:37.190 as much and they don't need as much. So be mindful 00:21:37.190 --> 00:21:41.130 of how much you actually need. Because that will 00:21:41.130 --> 00:21:43.329 help your functioning and your emotional regulation. 00:21:43.490 --> 00:21:45.829 Because that's the other piece we see with ADHDs 00:21:45.829 --> 00:21:48.690 with women, is they can have really quite explosive 00:21:48.690 --> 00:21:51.589 anger. And if you haven't slept, that's even 00:21:51.589 --> 00:21:55.230 worse. Or menopausal, perimenopause, just even 00:21:55.230 --> 00:21:58.230 worse. Yeah. I mean, the hormonal piece is real 00:21:58.230 --> 00:22:01.640 too. You mentioned a few kind of similar thematics 00:22:01.640 --> 00:22:04.339 in the ADHD brain, right? So you mentioned kind 00:22:04.339 --> 00:22:06.400 of being, you know, hyper focused on something 00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:08.640 and then crashing into burnout. You mentioned 00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:11.039 binge eating and then potentially purging or 00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:12.700 perhaps going through a period of restriction, 00:22:12.819 --> 00:22:14.559 right? So kind of this feast or famine, I believe, 00:22:14.660 --> 00:22:17.119 is a language that you use. What type of cognitive 00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:19.619 techniques do you use with clients to help them 00:22:19.619 --> 00:22:22.539 bridge what I'm also seeing as the all or nothing 00:22:22.539 --> 00:22:25.619 mindset, right? Either I'm super on or I'm so 00:22:25.619 --> 00:22:27.480 off I can't get out of bed. Right. How do you 00:22:27.480 --> 00:22:30.539 help them get into that gray area? When you're 00:22:30.539 --> 00:22:33.859 in hyper focus and you're excited about something, 00:22:33.940 --> 00:22:38.380 it's really hard to slow down. So there's a few 00:22:38.380 --> 00:22:42.140 things that I do is I'll get people to journal 00:22:42.140 --> 00:22:44.380 and think about what they're doing and how it's 00:22:44.380 --> 00:22:48.619 working. So putting their, for example, if they're 00:22:48.619 --> 00:22:52.440 really into a project, not starting the project 00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:56.759 straight away. you know, at 5 a .m. in the morning. 00:22:57.619 --> 00:22:59.720 Because they might just keep going the whole 00:22:59.720 --> 00:23:03.259 day and neglect everything else. There's a technique 00:23:03.259 --> 00:23:07.700 that we say, stop, think, do. Just take a moment 00:23:07.700 --> 00:23:11.359 when you walk into a room, stop, think what you 00:23:11.359 --> 00:23:13.440 need to, what is it that's most important that 00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:17.160 you need to do in this moment? Do it. Don't leave 00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:20.529 it till later. do it right now and so when we 00:23:20.529 --> 00:23:23.390 have things that are novel and exciting I tell 00:23:23.390 --> 00:23:26.269 people not to do that first thing to sort of 00:23:26.269 --> 00:23:28.829 structure their day where they have the day peppered 00:23:28.829 --> 00:23:31.710 with these exciting things but they do the things 00:23:31.710 --> 00:23:36.230 that they have to do before because otherwise 00:23:36.230 --> 00:23:38.410 they'll beat themselves up over not having done 00:23:38.410 --> 00:23:41.869 whatever it might be the the food shopping or 00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:44.500 Even parenting, one of the things that I find 00:23:44.500 --> 00:23:47.819 really validating to say to my ADHD community 00:23:47.819 --> 00:23:50.740 is that parenting can be painfully boring. Yeah, 00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:54.559 and repetitive. You gotta get comfy in the repetition. 00:23:55.519 --> 00:23:59.579 Yeah, and that's okay. Like we live in a society 00:23:59.579 --> 00:24:02.680 where we're supposed to be joyous all the time 00:24:02.680 --> 00:24:05.839 as parents, and it's really depleting. Chris, 00:24:05.980 --> 00:24:08.700 my co -host, talks about that. You know, parenting 00:24:08.700 --> 00:24:12.180 is depleting. So how are we going to restore 00:24:12.180 --> 00:24:15.640 ourselves? And with an ADHD brain, it can be 00:24:15.640 --> 00:24:18.599 particularly depleting because it's not novel. 00:24:19.099 --> 00:24:22.319 It's incredibly repetitive. There's no challenge 00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:25.319 and there's no reward. Nobody's telling you you're 00:24:25.319 --> 00:24:27.480 doing a great job. Hey, hey, those waiting to 00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:29.799 be parents get excited. Okay. This is what's 00:24:29.799 --> 00:24:33.559 coming your way. So I think organizing your day, 00:24:33.700 --> 00:24:37.059 creating structure, um, is really, really helpful 00:24:37.059 --> 00:24:40.680 cognitively. The other piece that I love is the 00:24:40.680 --> 00:24:44.119 self compassion. You know, once we get to know, 00:24:44.319 --> 00:24:46.680 so part of the journey into exploring whether 00:24:46.680 --> 00:24:51.259 you have ADHD, um, be it through a formal process 00:24:51.259 --> 00:24:54.740 that I actually think can be very validating. 00:24:54.779 --> 00:24:56.779 So when you go through the process of diagnosis, 00:24:57.359 --> 00:25:00.380 even as an older adult it can be very validating 00:25:00.380 --> 00:25:03.559 because as you do all the questionnaires and 00:25:03.559 --> 00:25:06.299 the tests and you see wow this is really hard 00:25:06.299 --> 00:25:09.339 for me no wonder I find it so difficult to do 00:25:09.339 --> 00:25:13.079 admin or no wonder I feel like I'm so impulsive 00:25:13.079 --> 00:25:16.099 like the tests will show so the process can be 00:25:16.099 --> 00:25:20.779 very validating um and I think that or you can 00:25:20.779 --> 00:25:23.599 just you know, read about it and see whether 00:25:23.599 --> 00:25:26.660 you recognize yourself in the podcast like this 00:25:26.660 --> 00:25:29.859 one or in, you know, the there's lots of good 00:25:29.859 --> 00:25:32.779 quality and be mindful to look for good quality 00:25:32.779 --> 00:25:36.039 material. But once you start to recognize yourself 00:25:36.039 --> 00:25:39.279 and you can validate, wow, this is hard because 00:25:39.279 --> 00:25:42.200 it is hard because these are things that I can't 00:25:42.200 --> 00:25:46.680 do. Just like somebody who has, you know, any 00:25:46.680 --> 00:25:51.799 other chronic condition like diabetes or struggles 00:25:51.799 --> 00:25:55.039 with physical impairments. These are challenging 00:25:55.039 --> 00:25:57.980 things for my brain to do. So having that self 00:25:57.980 --> 00:26:01.859 -compassion reduces the stress load, which helps 00:26:01.859 --> 00:26:05.420 us function cognitively. So self -compassion 00:26:05.420 --> 00:26:07.920 is a superpower. I think it is for everybody. 00:26:08.559 --> 00:26:11.720 But especially for the ADHD brain. So I was actually 00:26:11.720 --> 00:26:13.880 going to ask whether it's worth finding out later 00:26:13.880 --> 00:26:17.900 in life. I understand if you're a child in school, 00:26:17.900 --> 00:26:21.140 maybe it can help them get to... get through 00:26:21.140 --> 00:26:22.519 the education system, you know, because there's 00:26:22.519 --> 00:26:25.440 just so much that you need to get through. And 00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:27.339 it might give you that additional support that 00:26:27.339 --> 00:26:29.559 you need. But I'm looking at myself and I'm thinking, 00:26:29.599 --> 00:26:32.460 OK, am I? Do I have it? Maybe. I don't know. 00:26:32.579 --> 00:26:35.119 But do I need to know now? I feel like I've gotten 00:26:35.119 --> 00:26:38.099 through. Yeah, you've developed your coping strategies 00:26:38.099 --> 00:26:40.079 around it, whether you have it or not. Exactly. 00:26:40.160 --> 00:26:42.039 So I figured out what works for me. You know, 00:26:42.039 --> 00:26:45.720 I'm getting through and I feel OK. Is it worth 00:26:45.720 --> 00:26:48.180 finding out for sure? It depends where you're 00:26:48.180 --> 00:26:51.500 at with it. So when I have clients who come to 00:26:51.500 --> 00:26:54.839 me who've had, you know, a lifetime of anxiety 00:26:54.839 --> 00:27:00.940 and depression, and often clients who have ADHD, 00:27:01.279 --> 00:27:03.299 there's just this sense of there's something 00:27:03.299 --> 00:27:06.380 inherently wrong with me that they've carried 00:27:06.380 --> 00:27:09.779 their entire life. It's not just today. It's 00:27:09.779 --> 00:27:12.059 not during this period of stress. It's something 00:27:12.059 --> 00:27:16.140 they felt throughout their lives. And so understanding 00:27:16.140 --> 00:27:20.660 what that piece is. is very validating and very 00:27:20.660 --> 00:27:23.559 powerful. So it's not that there's something 00:27:23.559 --> 00:27:26.279 inherently wrong with me. It's that I'm wired 00:27:26.279 --> 00:27:29.759 differently. That I think differently. That when 00:27:29.759 --> 00:27:33.640 I see something sparkly and new, I get so excited 00:27:33.640 --> 00:27:38.279 that I need to follow it. And I forget about 00:27:38.279 --> 00:27:40.779 the other things that are not as exciting. But 00:27:40.779 --> 00:27:42.900 that's because my brain is wired like that. It's 00:27:42.900 --> 00:27:45.519 not that there's something wrong with me. So 00:27:45.519 --> 00:27:50.160 through the process of assessment, we can understand 00:27:50.160 --> 00:27:52.299 how we're wired differently. And I think that 00:27:52.299 --> 00:27:56.259 can be very validating. So is it worth it? It 00:27:56.259 --> 00:27:58.339 depends. It depends how much you're struggling 00:27:58.339 --> 00:28:02.160 with it. Self -identification is also incredibly 00:28:02.160 --> 00:28:04.480 useful. I know a lot of people who've chosen 00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:08.220 that path and that's been enough for them. But 00:28:08.220 --> 00:28:11.269 some people want to really understand. how they're 00:28:11.269 --> 00:28:13.990 thinking and making sense of the world. And that's 00:28:13.990 --> 00:28:16.210 how the process of assessment can really help. 00:28:16.670 --> 00:28:18.609 You mentioned medication earlier and stimulants. 00:28:19.430 --> 00:28:22.269 Do you think that most people, all people need 00:28:22.269 --> 00:28:25.150 to have medication or is it only for certain 00:28:25.150 --> 00:28:27.569 people? What's your sort of thoughts on that? 00:28:27.930 --> 00:28:30.430 Some people can really benefit from it. It depends 00:28:30.430 --> 00:28:34.950 the level of dysfunction. It depends how much 00:28:34.950 --> 00:28:38.529 you're struggling. So what we find with medication 00:28:38.529 --> 00:28:42.779 really helps with focus. So if you find that, 00:28:42.779 --> 00:28:46.619 you know, I've had clients that really procrastinate, 00:28:46.980 --> 00:28:49.900 like procrastination is a big problem for them. 00:28:50.240 --> 00:28:53.019 Often what we find with people who procrastinate 00:28:53.019 --> 00:28:56.079 is that they'll procrastinate till the last minute. 00:28:56.480 --> 00:28:59.119 And what, because it's a boring task and what 00:28:59.119 --> 00:29:02.119 will happen last minute is stress goes up. And 00:29:02.119 --> 00:29:05.200 as we know, the ADHD brain is driven by stress 00:29:05.200 --> 00:29:07.539 and stress challenge. So we'll start the task 00:29:07.539 --> 00:29:11.150 at 10 PM. So you get that little high. Exactly. 00:29:11.150 --> 00:29:13.950 These are the people who are, I thrive under 00:29:13.950 --> 00:29:16.190 pressure kind of. But the problem with doing 00:29:16.190 --> 00:29:19.130 it at 10 p .m. and finishing at 3 a .m. is that 00:29:19.130 --> 00:29:22.910 you don't do it well. So then comes in the self 00:29:22.910 --> 00:29:27.230 -criticism. And then that's where moods, issues 00:29:27.230 --> 00:29:30.309 happen. You beat yourself up and then you start 00:29:30.309 --> 00:29:32.490 again, you procrastinate. Look, what a terrible 00:29:32.490 --> 00:29:35.750 job I did last time. What's the point? Who cares? 00:29:36.200 --> 00:29:40.200 10 p .m. again and we're in that cycle. So medication 00:29:40.200 --> 00:29:42.819 can help to improve your focus in those moments. 00:29:44.500 --> 00:29:47.440 Medication also helps with hyperactivity if you 00:29:47.440 --> 00:29:51.539 have a lot of hyperactivity. So it kind of depends 00:29:51.539 --> 00:29:54.880 and I'm an advocate of you know if you're really 00:29:54.880 --> 00:29:58.589 struggling with this give it a go. It's not forever. 00:29:58.710 --> 00:30:01.069 It's not the same as going on an antidepressant 00:30:01.069 --> 00:30:04.049 medication where it takes weeks to see effects 00:30:04.049 --> 00:30:06.309 and then it takes weeks to come off it, if not 00:30:06.309 --> 00:30:08.690 months for some people. This is something that 00:30:08.690 --> 00:30:11.750 you can try and see that the complexity with 00:30:11.750 --> 00:30:13.890 the medication for ADHD is finding the right 00:30:13.890 --> 00:30:16.589 dose. You have to find that sweet spot because 00:30:16.589 --> 00:30:19.730 initially you can get quite agitated, struggle 00:30:19.730 --> 00:30:23.019 with sleep. struggle with food, as in, you know, 00:30:23.059 --> 00:30:26.819 you go off your food. So finding the right dose 00:30:26.819 --> 00:30:30.259 can take a while, but coming off it doesn't give 00:30:30.259 --> 00:30:32.619 you the same withdrawals that you do with other 00:30:32.619 --> 00:30:35.039 medications like for anxiety and depression. 00:30:35.299 --> 00:30:39.920 I've heard that using nutrition in the sense 00:30:39.920 --> 00:30:43.619 that you are eating sort of whole foods, keeping 00:30:43.619 --> 00:30:46.660 out the ultra processed foods, maybe even obviously 00:30:46.660 --> 00:30:50.359 exercising, cold plunges, soreness, you know, 00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:52.599 all of these sort of biohacking techniques that 00:30:52.599 --> 00:30:57.119 people use to live longer can also help. Do you 00:30:57.119 --> 00:30:58.819 think that's also the case? Have you seen that 00:30:58.819 --> 00:31:02.200 with people who... who use lifestyle as a way 00:31:02.200 --> 00:31:04.799 to manage some symptoms? I mean, I don't know 00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:08.339 the research on it. I think that what I see in 00:31:08.339 --> 00:31:11.920 my practice is that exercise is fantastic because 00:31:11.920 --> 00:31:14.380 exercise gives you lots of endorphins and dopamine. 00:31:14.440 --> 00:31:16.119 And that's the thing that will help us drive 00:31:16.119 --> 00:31:19.619 and regulate our emotions. So exercise is definitely 00:31:19.619 --> 00:31:22.619 very important and eating in such a way that 00:31:22.619 --> 00:31:26.450 it doesn't affect your sleep. So what we see 00:31:26.450 --> 00:31:28.809 is that we get very agitated because we overdo 00:31:28.809 --> 00:31:31.250 it with caffeine and then we drink at night to 00:31:31.250 --> 00:31:33.710 slow us down and then we don't sleep well. So 00:31:33.710 --> 00:31:36.250 then we're back on the caffeine. I do see those 00:31:36.250 --> 00:31:42.490 cycles or a lot of sugar to inevitably sort of 00:31:42.490 --> 00:31:45.869 get us moving a bit faster, but then that has 00:31:45.869 --> 00:31:48.730 a down. So I do think that these sort of peaks 00:31:48.730 --> 00:31:53.869 and troughs can be influenced by food. I don't 00:31:53.869 --> 00:31:58.029 know about the ice bath plunges. I don't know 00:31:58.029 --> 00:32:00.450 about those pieces, but I have seen sleep and 00:32:00.450 --> 00:32:04.150 food and exercise can be really important. You 00:32:04.150 --> 00:32:06.990 talk about emotional dysregulation and I'm guessing 00:32:06.990 --> 00:32:10.089 that can have a big impact on your relationships 00:32:10.089 --> 00:32:15.369 as well. How does somebody with ADHD go through 00:32:15.369 --> 00:32:17.630 a relationship and what sort of challenges do 00:32:17.630 --> 00:32:20.150 they encounter? as you can imagine, it can be 00:32:20.150 --> 00:32:22.869 quite complex. So from an early age, women with 00:32:22.869 --> 00:32:27.029 ADHD, women with ADHD tend to be super empaths. 00:32:28.089 --> 00:32:32.049 That's another fallacy. Like the idea that we, 00:32:32.210 --> 00:32:34.569 if we have somebody who presents with ADHD and 00:32:34.569 --> 00:32:37.809 even autism, that they don't empathize. That's 00:32:37.809 --> 00:32:41.769 just absolutely wrong. They tend to be, because 00:32:41.769 --> 00:32:44.049 they recognize that they have some difficulties 00:32:44.049 --> 00:32:47.119 picking up cues. They tend to be tremendously 00:32:47.119 --> 00:32:50.460 good at watching humans and they'll watch from 00:32:50.460 --> 00:32:53.299 a very early age, hence the masking. The problem 00:32:53.299 --> 00:32:56.480 with the masking is that it's very tiring. So 00:32:56.480 --> 00:33:01.579 we know that ADHD is a very, very sensitive to 00:33:01.579 --> 00:33:04.940 rejection. So this rejection sensitivity dysphoria 00:33:04.940 --> 00:33:09.319 is real. It's a real problem. So the fear of 00:33:09.319 --> 00:33:13.859 being rejected hits very, very deep. And so they'll 00:33:13.859 --> 00:33:17.119 be from a very young age will be trying to see 00:33:17.119 --> 00:33:20.140 if there's a risk of being rejected. So sometimes 00:33:20.140 --> 00:33:25.519 we see ADHD girls being quite socially anxious 00:33:25.519 --> 00:33:29.180 and trying to mask their anxiety or, you know, 00:33:29.180 --> 00:33:33.119 being a little bit more the clown, you know, 00:33:33.240 --> 00:33:36.119 trying to fit in. And that's because they're 00:33:36.119 --> 00:33:39.339 trying to mask what they recognize is a type 00:33:39.339 --> 00:33:41.240 of, it's a difference. They're slightly different. 00:33:41.279 --> 00:33:45.319 They're more likely to say things, be impulsive 00:33:45.319 --> 00:33:47.579 with what they say. And they notice that that's 00:33:47.579 --> 00:33:50.460 different to the other girls in the class. that 00:33:50.460 --> 00:33:52.700 perhaps are not saying things. So this level 00:33:52.700 --> 00:33:55.740 of masking that goes on and this fear of being 00:33:55.740 --> 00:34:00.180 rejected will really influence how we respond 00:34:00.180 --> 00:34:04.140 in relationships. So then we fast forward and, 00:34:04.140 --> 00:34:06.819 you know, we're now starting to have boyfriends 00:34:06.819 --> 00:34:10.960 and partners. We're going to be incredibly anxious 00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:15.059 about how they think about us. So we're masking. 00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:18.260 We're not being our authentic selves in a relationship. 00:34:19.740 --> 00:34:22.460 And we're wondering if they're going to stay 00:34:22.460 --> 00:34:25.420 with us. Are they going to criticize us? Because 00:34:25.420 --> 00:34:27.500 we will have had a long history of criticism, 00:34:27.760 --> 00:34:30.699 right? Girls get, just like boys, what's wrong 00:34:30.699 --> 00:34:33.440 with you? Why can't you just sit still? Why are 00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:35.900 you always late? Can't you get yourself more 00:34:35.900 --> 00:34:38.599 organized? Like there was somebody who actually 00:34:38.599 --> 00:34:41.099 Michaela on our podcast quoted that by the age 00:34:41.099 --> 00:34:45.780 of 10, they've had about 12 ,000 instances of 00:34:45.780 --> 00:34:48.699 criticism. and that just keeps going. So you're 00:34:48.699 --> 00:34:51.059 an adult woman, you're in a relationship and 00:34:51.059 --> 00:34:53.860 it can be even with friendships and you're expecting 00:34:53.860 --> 00:34:55.900 to be criticized because that's your history. 00:34:56.119 --> 00:34:58.059 Your history tells you you get things wrong. 00:34:58.320 --> 00:35:00.639 Your history tells you that you misunderstand 00:35:00.639 --> 00:35:04.619 people, that people think you're weird or you're 00:35:04.619 --> 00:35:08.219 different, you're quirky. So you're busy masking 00:35:08.219 --> 00:35:12.900 and you're busy waiting to be rejected. So what 00:35:12.900 --> 00:35:17.000 happens is that perhaps you do something in the 00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:20.340 relationship and somebody responds to you, you 00:35:20.340 --> 00:35:22.920 know, even maybe neutrally, but you misinterpret 00:35:22.920 --> 00:35:26.699 it as they don't like me. It feels like a personal 00:35:26.699 --> 00:35:29.019 attack. You're more likely to perceive it as 00:35:29.019 --> 00:35:33.599 a personal attack. And then because of the ADHD 00:35:33.599 --> 00:35:37.619 and because you've been sort of burrowing all 00:35:37.619 --> 00:35:40.739 that sort of pain, there's more likely to be 00:35:40.739 --> 00:35:44.280 an explosion of emotion. So what we see in relationships 00:35:44.280 --> 00:35:47.340 is that many women talk to me about how angry 00:35:47.340 --> 00:35:50.460 they get because their partner said, Hey, what 00:35:50.460 --> 00:35:53.820 happened to dot, dot, dot, you know, where are 00:35:53.820 --> 00:35:57.320 the keys? What happened to the plan of going 00:35:57.320 --> 00:36:01.219 out for Sunday brunch? The woman will explode. 00:36:01.360 --> 00:36:03.559 You're like, what do you mean? What are you saying 00:36:03.559 --> 00:36:07.539 about me? And we'll get very, very upset. And 00:36:07.539 --> 00:36:10.539 perhaps it is a neutral sort of jab, and perhaps 00:36:10.539 --> 00:36:13.000 it's just a complaint and not a criticism, but 00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:16.840 it will be internalized as a criticism. So this 00:36:16.840 --> 00:36:21.019 will be a problem that I see. So getting easily 00:36:21.019 --> 00:36:25.099 triggered by their partners, experiencing more 00:36:25.099 --> 00:36:29.119 levels of criticism or interpreting it as criticism, 00:36:29.619 --> 00:36:31.920 that tends to be a problem in relationships. 00:36:32.239 --> 00:36:35.619 The other piece that's quite interesting is that 00:36:35.849 --> 00:36:42.190 The ADHD woman is often a very busy woman. She 00:36:42.190 --> 00:36:45.650 just doesn't sit still. Even in the evenings, 00:36:46.309 --> 00:36:49.050 sitting down to watch Netflix, you'll be up and 00:36:49.050 --> 00:36:52.230 about doing things. And that can be quite irritating 00:36:52.230 --> 00:36:55.730 to partners. So that'll be a piece. But once 00:36:55.730 --> 00:36:57.969 you know that that's what's happening, you can 00:36:57.969 --> 00:37:00.449 say all of this to your partner, which is why 00:37:00.449 --> 00:37:04.070 I think understanding whether you have ADHD can 00:37:04.070 --> 00:37:07.170 be very powerful because it's a way to communicate 00:37:07.170 --> 00:37:09.150 with your partner what's happening. I'm also 00:37:09.150 --> 00:37:12.230 a couples therapist. The most important skill 00:37:12.230 --> 00:37:16.369 in a relationship is the ability to talk. And 00:37:16.369 --> 00:37:18.710 I don't believe there are any conversations that 00:37:18.710 --> 00:37:20.610 we can't have with our partner as long as we 00:37:20.610 --> 00:37:23.570 know how to have them. And so having that language 00:37:23.570 --> 00:37:27.389 to go, you know, I have this rejection sensitivity. 00:37:27.670 --> 00:37:32.539 So when I hear words like what happened to the 00:37:32.539 --> 00:37:36.219 plan or why are we running late? Whatever it 00:37:36.219 --> 00:37:39.659 might be. I take it very personally. It really 00:37:39.659 --> 00:37:44.219 hits me hard. And what I need from you is for 00:37:44.219 --> 00:37:46.760 you to say it more softly, whatever it might 00:37:46.760 --> 00:37:48.960 be that you need, but to explain to your partner 00:37:48.960 --> 00:37:51.719 that, you know, we're in it together. This is 00:37:51.719 --> 00:37:54.280 teamwork. This is how it lands. I know it's not 00:37:54.280 --> 00:37:57.619 your intention. Could you help me out here? And 00:37:57.619 --> 00:38:02.019 the same with You know, I'm a big believer in 00:38:02.019 --> 00:38:04.659 teamwork when it comes to admin. In the ADHD 00:38:04.659 --> 00:38:07.400 world, we talk about time blindness, which I 00:38:07.400 --> 00:38:11.340 love as a term. The ADHD brain just doesn't calculate 00:38:11.340 --> 00:38:14.760 time the same way as in your typical brain. ADHDers 00:38:14.760 --> 00:38:18.320 will try and squeeze things in with five minutes. 00:38:18.340 --> 00:38:20.219 That actually is a task that should take 20. 00:38:20.900 --> 00:38:23.260 And suddenly you're 20 minutes late and your 00:38:23.260 --> 00:38:25.059 partner's like, I can't believe we're here again. 00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:28.199 So this is where you can lean on each other. 00:38:28.250 --> 00:38:30.989 And your partner can go, honey, we have five 00:38:30.989 --> 00:38:33.690 minutes. You can't do anything in these five 00:38:33.690 --> 00:38:35.869 minutes. So just come with me and let's get in 00:38:35.869 --> 00:38:40.289 the car. And that's teamwork. Yeah. And I think 00:38:40.289 --> 00:38:43.449 that's really important in relationships is to 00:38:43.449 --> 00:38:47.070 recognize that we're all different. And some 00:38:47.070 --> 00:38:49.510 of us are wired differently and we could do with 00:38:49.510 --> 00:38:52.079 a little more support. And it sounds like, you 00:38:52.079 --> 00:38:54.300 know, in that exact example, right? So you have 00:38:54.300 --> 00:38:58.460 an ADHD partner and a neurotypical partner. What 00:38:58.460 --> 00:39:01.619 if we are talking about two ADHD partners? Are 00:39:01.619 --> 00:39:03.739 there different issues then that come to the 00:39:03.739 --> 00:39:07.199 front? Sometimes it can be a really fantastic 00:39:07.199 --> 00:39:11.539 partnership, especially if the topics of interest 00:39:11.539 --> 00:39:14.539 are very similar, because there's nothing more 00:39:14.539 --> 00:39:17.860 exciting than talking about your topic of interest. 00:39:18.059 --> 00:39:21.619 Like if you have somebody who's an ADHDer or 00:39:21.619 --> 00:39:24.760 autistic and you know their topic of interest, 00:39:24.820 --> 00:39:27.500 you wouldn't make them happier than to talk about 00:39:27.500 --> 00:39:31.820 that. And so you can be incredibly aligned if 00:39:31.820 --> 00:39:35.980 you're too neurodivergent individuals in a partnership 00:39:35.980 --> 00:39:38.179 because you know what it's like to talk about 00:39:38.179 --> 00:39:41.619 the topic of interest, for example, or you know 00:39:41.619 --> 00:39:45.840 how hard it is to organize. So there can be teamwork 00:39:45.840 --> 00:39:50.230 in that too, a recognition that We're similar 00:39:50.230 --> 00:39:52.449 in as much as we have very similar challenges 00:39:52.449 --> 00:39:55.309 and how can we work it out together? Sometimes 00:39:55.309 --> 00:39:59.590 I've seen that work really well because you don't 00:39:59.590 --> 00:40:01.969 have to explain it as much. You kind of get it. 00:40:02.119 --> 00:40:04.340 And I get it on the high end, if that makes sense, 00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:06.000 like on the shared interest. And I'm thinking 00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:07.860 of a couple that I know specifically who are 00:40:07.860 --> 00:40:10.480 both very outwardly communicative about their 00:40:10.480 --> 00:40:12.800 ADHD struggles. Right. But then, you know, my 00:40:12.800 --> 00:40:14.860 question is always, then who's doing the admin? 00:40:15.119 --> 00:40:17.860 Like, who is the one who, like, is the grounded 00:40:17.860 --> 00:40:20.239 person? Because they're they they both I think 00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:22.179 that's something that they express in their struggles 00:40:22.179 --> 00:40:24.820 as a couple is like, it's all great. So they're 00:40:24.820 --> 00:40:26.679 in the world of finance. Right. So they're like 00:40:26.679 --> 00:40:28.159 really into the markets and they're really into 00:40:28.159 --> 00:40:29.880 Bitcoin and they're really into that. But then 00:40:29.880 --> 00:40:31.610 it's like at the end of the day, they look at 00:40:31.610 --> 00:40:33.730 each other and it's like, did you actually, did 00:40:33.730 --> 00:40:36.329 you buy the shares today? Like did you actually 00:40:36.329 --> 00:40:38.150 pull the trigger on that investment? And it's 00:40:38.150 --> 00:40:40.230 like, oh shit. And then the markets are closed, 00:40:40.369 --> 00:40:42.349 you know? And it's like, oh, so like that last 00:40:42.349 --> 00:40:44.469 bit of follow through was the missing piece. 00:40:44.829 --> 00:40:47.610 And I think it's great example. I think that's 00:40:47.610 --> 00:40:50.889 where you have to get external support. Like 00:40:50.889 --> 00:40:54.369 I'm a big believer in recognizing our limitations 00:40:54.369 --> 00:40:56.909 and working in the things that we're great at 00:40:56.909 --> 00:40:58.849 and getting help for the things that we struggle 00:40:58.849 --> 00:41:02.039 with. I think this is why I love my helper. Because 00:41:02.039 --> 00:41:06.400 she has taken all of that stuff off my hands. 00:41:06.920 --> 00:41:09.860 I don't have to think about it anymore. Since 00:41:09.860 --> 00:41:12.179 we both work in the coaching field, I always 00:41:12.179 --> 00:41:15.780 say, you can almost always tell a valuable coach 00:41:15.780 --> 00:41:17.980 because they have a coach in some aspect of their 00:41:17.980 --> 00:41:20.199 life. And I would say the same for therapists. 00:41:20.880 --> 00:41:24.019 Really effective therapists often have... I feel 00:41:24.019 --> 00:41:26.320 like therapists need therapists because they 00:41:26.320 --> 00:41:30.179 take on so much. On a separate note, I heard 00:41:30.179 --> 00:41:33.699 somewhere that everyone has a little bit of ADHD 00:41:33.699 --> 00:41:36.480 or a little bit of neurodivergence. So is it 00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:38.420 a case of you either have it or you don't have 00:41:38.420 --> 00:41:41.599 it? Or is it a spectrum where you might have 00:41:41.599 --> 00:41:44.199 it a little bit or you have it a lot? So in the 00:41:44.199 --> 00:41:48.800 ADHD community, I would say, and the autistic 00:41:48.800 --> 00:41:52.800 community, it's quite insulting to think of somebody 00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:54.820 having a little bit of it because it can be really 00:41:54.820 --> 00:41:57.099 quite challenging to have it. I think what we 00:41:57.099 --> 00:42:00.119 all have a little bit of is difficulties. You 00:42:00.119 --> 00:42:02.280 know, we've all got a executive functioning. 00:42:02.659 --> 00:42:04.599 Some of us are better at it and some of us are 00:42:04.599 --> 00:42:08.300 worse. I think if we think of ADHD and autism, 00:42:08.380 --> 00:42:10.760 if we're talking about that too here, I think 00:42:10.760 --> 00:42:12.480 you either have it or you don't. You're either 00:42:12.480 --> 00:42:16.639 wired in this way or you're not. When you talk 00:42:16.639 --> 00:42:19.780 to somebody with ADHD about what their moments 00:42:19.780 --> 00:42:22.900 of burnout are like, that is serious. That is 00:42:22.900 --> 00:42:25.159 real. Where they might not be able to get out 00:42:25.159 --> 00:42:28.059 of bed because they have absolutely exhausted 00:42:28.059 --> 00:42:30.119 themselves and you can't have a little bit of 00:42:30.119 --> 00:42:34.019 that. To be diagnosed with ADHD, there has to 00:42:34.019 --> 00:42:37.159 be an impact on functioning. That's real. Yeah. 00:42:37.210 --> 00:42:39.510 So I guess for me, when people talk about a little 00:42:39.510 --> 00:42:43.670 bit or that it's a fad, it's just trendy to have 00:42:43.670 --> 00:42:46.769 ADHD, when you talk to the community, those that 00:42:46.769 --> 00:42:50.429 have it, it's real. It's not trendy. It can be 00:42:50.429 --> 00:42:53.250 really, really hard. And also something that 00:42:53.250 --> 00:42:55.369 we haven't talked about and it's not talked about 00:42:55.369 --> 00:42:58.849 a lot, the autistic research is far, far ahead 00:42:58.849 --> 00:43:02.429 of the ADHD research in women. ADHD researchers 00:43:02.429 --> 00:43:05.250 will catch up. But what we know is that there's 00:43:05.250 --> 00:43:07.730 a lot of common, there's a lot of chronic health 00:43:07.730 --> 00:43:12.110 conditions that come with ADHD and autism. Somebody, 00:43:12.929 --> 00:43:14.929 Jennifer Kemp, who was also on our podcast, she 00:43:14.929 --> 00:43:17.949 talks about, you know, autism is in every cell 00:43:17.949 --> 00:43:21.170 of our body. So it's not just our cognitive functioning 00:43:21.170 --> 00:43:23.349 that's impacted, our whole body is impacted. 00:43:23.449 --> 00:43:26.070 And we're looking at that in the ADHD community, 00:43:26.469 --> 00:43:30.309 too. We often see chronic fatigue. with ADHD. 00:43:30.949 --> 00:43:35.369 We see immunity difficulties with chronic pain. 00:43:35.809 --> 00:43:39.650 So it often comes with migraines. There's a whole 00:43:39.650 --> 00:43:43.409 facet that comes along with the ADHD that can 00:43:43.409 --> 00:43:47.480 also impact functioning. So I think what we have 00:43:47.480 --> 00:43:52.099 a little bit of is perhaps a tendency to be more 00:43:52.099 --> 00:43:55.699 excited by things, you know, struggle to plan, 00:43:55.800 --> 00:43:58.260 struggle with cognitive functioning, but I don't 00:43:58.260 --> 00:44:00.800 think we have a little bit of ADHD. What are 00:44:00.800 --> 00:44:04.539 your thoughts on gut health and its relationship, 00:44:04.699 --> 00:44:07.280 if there is a relationship to ADHD or autism 00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:09.699 spectrum disorder? Yeah, there's a lot, there's 00:44:09.699 --> 00:44:13.159 a lot in the... in the research world around 00:44:13.159 --> 00:44:15.840 this. And that's really, really interesting because 00:44:15.840 --> 00:44:18.840 we see so much correlation. A lot of people with 00:44:18.840 --> 00:44:22.480 ADHD and autism have gut issues and have had 00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:26.420 from the get go. In fact, when we look at young 00:44:26.420 --> 00:44:28.579 children getting diagnosed, they've often had 00:44:28.579 --> 00:44:33.659 reflux or gastric issues as little people. And 00:44:33.659 --> 00:44:37.179 so I think that there's more and more being discovered 00:44:37.179 --> 00:44:41.179 in that area. And we know that the gut holds 00:44:41.179 --> 00:44:45.639 a lot of serotonin, which will influence mood, 00:44:45.880 --> 00:44:47.840 which will influence our functioning in many, 00:44:47.840 --> 00:44:52.360 many ways. And I'm really interested to see where 00:44:52.360 --> 00:44:55.539 we go with it. Are there any myths about ADHD 00:44:55.539 --> 00:44:58.760 that you'd like to bust? The one that you just 00:44:58.760 --> 00:45:00.809 said about... You know, can I have a little bit 00:45:00.809 --> 00:45:03.909 of it? I think is an important myth because it's 00:45:03.909 --> 00:45:06.730 important to protect those that have a diagnosis 00:45:06.730 --> 00:45:10.469 and that, you know, really do recognize the challenges 00:45:10.469 --> 00:45:15.409 that they face. I think the other myth is that 00:45:15.409 --> 00:45:19.590 women don't have it as much as men. I for me, 00:45:19.869 --> 00:45:23.250 I've been in the in the world of psychology for 00:45:23.250 --> 00:45:27.809 over 20 years. And I when I trained, it was boys. 00:45:28.320 --> 00:45:31.639 you know, four to one, four boys for every girl. 00:45:32.739 --> 00:45:36.480 That's changing. It's been a radical shift to 00:45:36.480 --> 00:45:38.900 start looking at women. So these high achieving, 00:45:39.179 --> 00:45:42.300 high performing women who, how have they kept 00:45:42.300 --> 00:45:45.840 it together, has been through all this overcompensation 00:45:45.840 --> 00:45:50.699 and really underneath it is the ADHD. And I think 00:45:50.699 --> 00:45:52.719 that's a myth that we need to bust, that women 00:45:52.719 --> 00:45:55.420 don't have ADHD and that girls don't have ADHD. 00:45:55.840 --> 00:45:58.239 because I think there's a lot of suffering that 00:45:58.239 --> 00:46:02.880 happens with undiagnosed women and girls. So 00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:06.659 for anyone out there who either has ADHD or thinks 00:46:06.659 --> 00:46:09.900 they may have ADHD, where can they go to find 00:46:09.900 --> 00:46:15.320 out more? There is a few websites now, more and 00:46:15.320 --> 00:46:18.340 more that are women. There's a lot of clinical 00:46:18.340 --> 00:46:21.079 psychologists that are coming out as ADHD and 00:46:21.079 --> 00:46:23.739 autistic and I think they're brilliant to follow 00:46:23.739 --> 00:46:27.320 because they have good quality. research. So 00:46:27.320 --> 00:46:29.840 one is Michaela Thomas from the Thomas Connection. 00:46:29.920 --> 00:46:33.699 She's fantastic. She's in the UK. Jennifer Kemp 00:46:33.699 --> 00:46:39.920 is in Australia. She does a lot of writing and 00:46:39.920 --> 00:46:43.860 has done a lot of podcasts on it as well. There's 00:46:43.860 --> 00:46:46.719 a few websites. There's the Neurodivergent Woman, 00:46:47.400 --> 00:46:49.460 which is a podcast. And they also have a website 00:46:49.460 --> 00:46:53.719 with some fantastic resources. There's also Embrace 00:46:53.719 --> 00:46:57.579 Autism. which has some screeners as well that 00:46:57.579 --> 00:47:01.440 women can use to see if they can self identify. 00:47:02.139 --> 00:47:08.940 So I would seek support from psychologists, psychiatrists 00:47:08.940 --> 00:47:12.320 in the area. If we're gonna sort of look through 00:47:12.320 --> 00:47:15.460 social media and the internet, I would make sure 00:47:15.460 --> 00:47:20.400 I'm looking at high quality content because this 00:47:20.400 --> 00:47:23.619 is a big deal to be looking and exploring into. 00:47:24.199 --> 00:47:26.420 ADHD. And we'll put all of this into the show 00:47:26.420 --> 00:47:29.860 notes as well. And Emma, it has been absolutely 00:47:29.860 --> 00:47:32.119 amazing having you here on the 40s Formula and 00:47:32.119 --> 00:47:35.820 sharing all your insights about ADHD and neurodivergence. 00:47:36.139 --> 00:47:38.280 But before we go, we do want to ask one final 00:47:38.280 --> 00:47:40.860 question, and that is what's your 40s Formula, 00:47:41.079 --> 00:47:44.440 especially for women who either are or think 00:47:44.440 --> 00:47:49.360 they may be struggling with ADHD? What sort of 00:47:49.360 --> 00:47:51.500 advice would you give them to help them thrive? 00:47:52.199 --> 00:47:55.159 through this, despite this. I think we always 00:47:55.159 --> 00:47:57.340 think about, you know, at the end of the day, 00:47:57.559 --> 00:48:00.239 what truly matters are our relationships. So 00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:02.260 really protecting relationships. But I think 00:48:02.260 --> 00:48:05.840 that's something that mostly we're thinking about 00:48:05.840 --> 00:48:08.300 more and more. I think the piece that's really 00:48:08.300 --> 00:48:10.659 important is actually what we've touched on, 00:48:10.699 --> 00:48:13.219 which is self -compassion. You know, learning 00:48:13.219 --> 00:48:18.380 to be kind. As women, we've taken on so much 00:48:18.380 --> 00:48:21.400 and we've been told that we need to take on more. 00:48:21.739 --> 00:48:25.940 You know, to be valuable to society, we have 00:48:25.940 --> 00:48:28.440 to carry the load at home. We have to carry the 00:48:28.440 --> 00:48:30.860 load in relationships often. You know, some of 00:48:30.860 --> 00:48:33.119 us are working women or even those of us who 00:48:33.119 --> 00:48:37.079 are homemakers. We tend to carry the biggest 00:48:37.079 --> 00:48:40.420 load. So self -compassion is very important and 00:48:40.420 --> 00:48:43.960 learning to set boundaries. Learning to say no 00:48:43.960 --> 00:48:47.360 and ask for help. Like there's nothing to be 00:48:47.360 --> 00:48:51.590 ashamed of. Because if we can't support us and 00:48:51.590 --> 00:48:54.070 we can't be well, we can't help anybody else. 00:48:54.449 --> 00:48:56.909 So when we think about relationships, often I 00:48:56.909 --> 00:48:59.929 think it just encourages women to subjugate more. 00:49:01.010 --> 00:49:04.389 Like I have to do yet another thing. Well, let's 00:49:04.389 --> 00:49:06.989 start saying no and thinking about what is it 00:49:06.989 --> 00:49:10.619 that gives me a sense of purpose in this world. 00:49:10.659 --> 00:49:13.480 What makes me feel good about me? And I think 00:49:13.480 --> 00:49:16.219 self -compassion, you know, being kind helps 00:49:16.219 --> 00:49:18.940 us make room for those questions. I think that's 00:49:18.940 --> 00:49:21.519 amazing. Yeah, it's beautiful. I think everyone 00:49:21.519 --> 00:49:23.679 can take on a little bit of self -compassion, 00:49:23.800 --> 00:49:25.920 for sure. Thank you so much, Emma. It's been 00:49:25.920 --> 00:49:28.019 wonderful having you here. Thank you. Thank you 00:49:28.019 --> 00:49:31.059 very much. Guys, you know we love coffee. And 00:49:31.059 --> 00:49:32.480 if you want to show us some love, you know, you 00:49:32.480 --> 00:49:35.380 can always get us one. Just visit buymeacoffee 00:49:35.380 --> 00:49:39.920 .com slash the forties formula. Cheers. Before 00:49:39.920 --> 00:49:42.880 we go, please remember to hit subscribe and take 00:49:42.880 --> 00:49:45.099 a moment to support the 40s Formula by leaving 00:49:45.099 --> 00:49:48.159 a review on your favorite podcast platform. 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Keeps 00:51:03.860 --> 00:51:05.699 us going. Otherwise humanity would have ended. 00:51:05.840 --> 00:51:08.000 Oh, good. Yeah. You're right. Long time ago. 00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:09.780 Yeah. We wouldn't have time to actually have 00:51:09.780 --> 00:51:10.139 babies.