You didn't fail at marriage. You can still have
marriage. You didn't fail at relationships. You
can still have relationships. This one situation,
yeah, didn't work out. It's not a success. I
mean, you're not still married, right? So it's
not a success in that sense. But the whole category
of connection and relationships and marriage
is still open to you. That still exists for you.
You know, so it's like I, I use failure in the
very temporary sense. Yes. Yeah. For me. Y 'all
can disagree. Being able to see it as a learning
opportunity to grow from and to see what areas
in your life you can work on as well on yourself.
Hello and welcome to the 40s Formula, your go
-to place for insightful discussions on navigating
your 40s and thriving in this transformative
decade. We're your hosts, Amanda and Jasmine,
two women that are passionate about exploring
the challenges and adventures that come with
turning 40 and what lies ahead. Shumi Hoon is
a sought -after advocate, international speaker
and a trusted advisor to the modern family. With
a niche practice in private client and family
disputes, Shumi appears regularly at all levels
of the Supreme Court on matters affecting the
family, many of which involve the valuation of
family businesses and novel assets, international
child abduction, family violence, mental capacity
as well as property and trust disputes. Sophie
Leong is a trauma -informed confidence coach,
speaker and thought leader, dedicating to helping
high -achieving women break free from anxiety,
self -doubt and burnout so they can step into
their power with unshakable confidence and self
-trust, build better relationships in work and
life and create success on their own terms. As
the founder of Sophie Leong Co, she has helped
hundreds of women heal deeply ingrained patterns
of fear, perfectionism and self -sabotage through
her signature core confidence mastery framework.
She is also the visionary behind the Cycle Breakers
Revolution, a movement empowering women to break
generational trauma and cultivate emotional resilience,
abundance and self -empowerment. So today on
the 40s formula we're going to be diving into
a topic that we've not covered before and that
is divorce. So with us today we've got Shimei
and Sophie Leong and they're both going to be
talking about the legalities and the emotional
effects that divorce can have on families and
couples. So firstly it feels like divorce rates
in the 40s are on the rise. Why do you both think
that is? In my perspective women in their 40s
are experiencing a huge shift in self -awareness
and so a lot of women they mostly focus on and
prioritize other things such as family life,
career, societal expectations and it is at the
expense of their own emotional well -being. Their
identity gets lost in the process. Some women,
what I've observed is they will realize it over
a period of time, especially when they are in
emotionally abusive or narcissistically abusive
relationships, when their self -esteem has eroded
over a period of time. Others, sometimes they
feel, oh, there's something missing over a period
of time. They realize that, oh, they can't finger
point on it, pinpoint it, but over a period of
time, they realised that there's something missing
in their life. And so there are three things
that I realised for the awakening of a person,
right? So the first point is financial independence.
right? When we are building our financial independence,
we are less likely to be attached to that relationship,
right? Because a lot of people they marry due
to financial security, etc. Not all, of course.
The second thing that I've observed is really
about the deepening of self -awareness. So when
we're talking about self -awareness, being aware
of the unhealthy behavioral habits that has been
formed in the relationship. So it could be emotional
abuse, but it could just simply be that, you
know, things are misaligned because over a period
of time in a marriage, people evolve. We got
so this idea of the happily ever after marriage
where you marry this person and they don't evolve,
but people grow over a period of time and there's
this disparity. Maybe your values have changed
and maybe your perspectives and your desires
have changed as well. That's the second one that
I've observed. And the third one is a lot of
women, they generally get emotionally exhausted
when they shrink themselves. to fix the marriage.
Nowadays, the women that I see in my private
practice, they're not willing to shrink themselves
anymore. They're not willing to compromise. They
want to live an authentic life based on their
terms. What I've observed is women today, they
are no longer willing to be in that relationship
because of survival. It's mostly about fulfillment.
So give us an example of what a woman shrinking
herself for the sake of relationship. What would
that mean? Can you like paint us a vignette about
that? So I have a client who she really just.
was fixated on saving the marriage and she was
not speaking up for her needs and who she really
was, her identity, because she just wanted to
have this relationship. And if we were to dig
deeper, it actually goes back to her childhood
wounds. And what we discovered is she was parentified.
So parentified is a term where the parents expect
her to parent the parents. right? And also her
siblings. Obviously in the process you lose your
identity because who are you? You're just parenting
your siblings, you're parenting your parents
itself and so she doesn't know who she is and
therefore she doesn't have any boundaries, she
doesn't have any voice of her own. and identity.
So then in the relationship, she shrinks herself
because she's not able to show up authentically
in that relationship of her wants and desires.
Before I moved to Singapore, I remember sort
of googling a few things and I remember seeing
this article which said that Singapore had a
high divorce rate amongst expats. And back then,
the first thing that came to me was infidelity.
Now, Do you see that infidelity is still a leading
cause? When people come to you as a lawyer, you
know, when I can understand sort of emotionally,
do they sort of bring up other things as being
the driving force rather than I just don't have
the same values as my husband anymore? So from
your perspective, do you see it a bit differently?
So statistically, what the data shows us is that
there's a lot of breakdown at that kind of five
to eight year point of marriage. So maybe no
kids or kids are very little. And then there's
a bit of a break in terms of numbers. Then the
second large period of time is when people have
been in a relationship for quite a long time.
So 15 to 20 years years, the marriage is a long
marriage. The children are very big, potentially
teenagers going to college and that. Right. So
I think that kind of feeds into what Sophie's
saying. Right. Potentially for that second group
of women. You know, they might be more stable,
more financially independent. The children are
bigger. They say, I can now make this decision
that is for myself. You know, now that the kids
are sorted, I don't have to worry about care
and custody issues. Now, with that, actually,
is there's also some research in the UK. And
this piece of research is quite controversial.
It's called the Family Law Menopause Project.
and it speaks about how the relationship between
divorce and menopause. And they suggest that
there's a link. I think out of the respondents
survey, something like 70 -ish percent said that
they felt that there was a link between symptoms
and the actual breakdown of their marriage. I
can see that. I can see that totally happening.
You're going through all of this stuff. and your
husband thinks you're batshit crazy. Who is this
woman? I did not marry this woman. And then internally
you're like, oh my God, he's fucking pissing
me off. Yeah, because all of this stuff is irritability,
right? Mood swings, vaginal dryness, things that
like your husband's going to notice. So yeah,
I get it. I get it. And it's potentially is also
controversial because, you know, some people
might think, well, it minimizes the woman's right
to make a decision anyway. And both could be
true, right? Back to then your second question
is infidelity, the leading cause. So, you know,
in Singapore, when you file for divorce, you
know, you can choose adultery. You can also choose
unreasonable behavior. Those are the two kind
of fault base. common fault -based grounds and
reasonable behavior, the leading fault -based
ground. But we do see infidelity quite a lot.
Now, it's hard for me to say whether it is the
leading cause. There's certainly a lot of marriages
that break down because of other reasons like
value clashes. They just feel like, you know,
we've been together for 15 to 20 years. The kids
are big and now we just cannot talk to each other
anymore. We have nothing in common. And I've
just kind of kept it together for all of this
time. What would you say are unreasonable but
unreasonable behavior? And is, does that unreasonable
behavior usually come from the woman's point
of view or is it from the man's point of view
now? Cause I'm just thinking of menopause. Like
who's filing? Yeah, it depends who files, right?
Okay. So, and it could be, it could be very mild
behavior over a prolonged period of time. It
could be a few incidents. So very wide ranging,
anything from extremely abusive behavior to like,
this person's incredibly messy and doesn't talk
to me. And that's unreasonable, right? Yeah.
Correct me if I'm wrong. Adultery, you have to
prove it here, right? You have to have a documented
instance of adultery, which is why, like a lot
of times it goes to unreasonable behavior because
it's like, I can't prove it to you, but I know
what happened. Yeah. Right. So you don't have
to prove it happened in that you don't have to
have a video of two people having sex. You have
to have a text, right? You need something else.
You need to show basically that there was an
opportunity to commit adultery and an inclination.
So these two people have spent a lot of time
together. So, you know, earlier before the podcast
started, you talked about that person with the
colleague, their female colleague, right? Or
male colleague over a prolonged period. And then
they went on a business trip and then they went
away for a weekend. And then there was a lie,
right? So you kind of put the pieces together.
a colleague who they're spending a lot of time
with, they want to own a business trip. Is the
business trip enough to show? I know it has to
be a weekend away. Usually what we would do is
we would have a PI following the person. Ooh,
I love it. Yeah, so they were in the hotel room
for like six hours. That's my next job. And then
they would come out and usually I think. You
know, people, we're human, right? So, you're
in a foreign country, you're relaxed, and then
there's a bit of hand -holding and kissing and
something, and it's like, okay, we put the pieces
together, there's probably going to be adultery.
And then, of course, there will be text messages
and emails and other things as well. Divorce
in your 40s or in your old years is very different
to divorce when you're younger, say pre -kids.
So, let's say you've got kids, you've got shared
assets, you've obviously got years of history.
What are the sort of the biggest challenges that
people face in their older years when they're
going through this? So when they're older and
they've been together for a long time, regardless
of whether it is, you know, how long the marriage
is, right? They would have built up assets together,
whether those assets are shared or in their own
name. Sometimes they might run a business together,
right? So one of the big issues would be, well,
you've been together for so long, and at some
point we need to identify what the assets are.
We need to divide them. So a big one for long
marriages would be, well, what are the assets,
right? Are these divisible or not? Would it be
inheritance? Is that out because of inheritance?
Is it a family gift? If it is a business you
want together, how would you value it? How would
you divide it? Who is going to stay on to run
that business? You know, because presumably post
divorce, two people are not going to want to
run a business together. Right. Yeah. And then,
of course, there are other issues in relation
to Is the woman financially dependent or not?
What does the future look like? Are they going
to re -skill and go back to work if they've been
financially dependent on their spouse or partner
for a very, very long time? And are they going
to stay on in Singapore if they're here, right?
Or are they going to go home? What does that
look like in terms of employment as well? So
how does that work then? So let's say a divorce
is happening. You've got kids. You've been on
a say dependent pass and your husband's been
the main earner while being here. Are you allowed
to go back? Because I've seen these things about,
it's considered child abduction. If you take
your kids and you go back to your home country,
is that a thing? Like you're not allowed to do
that as a parent? You're not allowed to do it
if you don't have consent from the other parent
and it's not a holiday, right? So if you say,
I'm going to take the kids back to England for
two weeks and I'm coming back in this day, that's
fine. Now, if on the last day you're like, actually,
I'm not getting on a flight because we're over
and I'm staying put, then it's a problem. OK,
and the reason why people say that child abduction
is because we have a convention. It's called
the 1988 Convention on International Child Abduction.
Now, not every country is a signatory, but if
there is a relationship, as in both countries
are signatories, what happens is there is a court
procedure that makes it quite quick. So the trial
is done within six weeks. There's only very narrow
exceptions as to why an abducting parent can
remain in that country that they've abducted
the children to. Majority of times they will
be sent back. What if the husband cancels the
wife's dependence pass? Is that possible? Yeah,
so that can happen, but that would probably not
be an exception that allows the woman to remain
because the other things, you know, so the courts
would look at, well, can Singapore provide protective
measures for the mother in that case? Yeah, right.
And they would. They would allow the mother to
stay here, provide her protection, provide her
maintenance, abduction or removal of the child
to a different country is often, I would say,
highly discouraged just because You know, even
if you do it and you think, OK, I can do it,
you know, I'm going back home to me is India,
home to me is Malaysia, home to me, some other
country does not hate country. It could still
be problematic. It's like litigation in two countries,
essentially. That process of a very drastic removal
is actually seem to be very, very traumatic for
the children. There's much better to kind of
go and plan to say, okay, can we negotiate land
relocation? Maybe not now, maybe when the kids
are 13 or 16 or some milestone for them and what
does that look like? So if someone is considering
a divorce, what are the sort of steps that they
should prepare for or think about? if they're
obviously just considering it, like what sort
of things should they be sort of thinking about?
I always say there are four steps. One is to
pause and reflect because it's really important
to understand what is actually happening in the
relationship. Often in a relationship, it kind
of highlights past childhood wounds or behaviors
that show up. And we will not know until we dive
deeper into discovering that. But when you do,
then you can know where you stand in the relationship.
And that gives you clarity on how to move forward.
Right. And so for the second step is to get informed.
Right. So getting informed is on a legal stance.
having legal awareness, thankfully we have wonderful
lawyers like Shumi, financial awareness, and
third of all is emotional support. So from professionals
like myself, because when you go through such
traumatic experiences, it is even more critical
to have emotional support. Of course, some will
think about the financial burdens. Finding that
emotional support wherever you can is crucial.
I have a few clients that go through the divorce
process. When they are going through the divorce
process, it's very difficult, it's very challenging
for them because they feel the emotions and they
sometimes are trauma bonded to the person, even
though they know on a logical stance that that
person has hurt them very deeply. Third of all
is building a support system, which I... kind
of touched upon, whether it's your friends, whether
it's your family or even your colleagues, because
it's so important when you're going through a
divorce, it can feel very lonely. Being with
women who perhaps have gone through similar things,
who see it in a positive light, not to drag them
down with negativity, of course. It's important
to feel that support, to be seen, to be heard,
and to feel deeply supported. The fourth step
is to prepare for the future because when you're
going through divorce, yes, it is an end to a
chapter in your life. And you might feel like
it's a so -called failure, but it's not. I would
gently encourage you to see it as creating space
for yourself for self -growth and healing, because
what happens in a divorce is it highlights certain
things that you might not have addressed, behavioral
patterns that you that arise from your childhood
to heal. So it creates a more aligned future
for you to actually thrive in your life. Can
I counterpoint that I actually do view my divorce
as a failure? But let me comment on how I mean
this. I think of it in the sense of the word
failure, how I think of when I fail a lift, like
in the gym. Yeah. It's like, OK, so I throw up
this snatch. I don't make it right. My elbow
bends, whatever. I don't lock out. Barbells on
the floor. It does not mean that I am bad at
snatching Yeah, it does not mean that I am bad
at lifting and it does not mean that I'm not
an athlete It does not mean I will never lift
that barbell. It means that today I failed at
this lift and so I think what would have been
important for me to know when I went through
my divorce years ago was like You don't you didn't
fail at marriage. You can still have marriage.
Yeah, you didn't fail at relationships. You can
still have relationships This one situation.
Yeah didn't work out like you can't it's not
a six. I mean, you're not still married, right?
So it's not a success in that sense, but the
whole category of connection and relationships
and marriage is still open to you Yeah, that
still exists for you. You know, so it's like
I I use failure in the very temporary sense.
Yes. Yeah For me, being able to see it as a learning
opportunity to grow from and to see what areas
in your life you can work on as well on yourself,
because a lot of times when you're in a relationship,
as I mentioned, it it's a reflection of what's
going internally, the way that you communicate,
the way that you show up for yourself, your attachment
style. I believe that you've spoken. about that
before. It helps you to heal parts of you that
allows you to attract a healthier relationship,
whether you want it or not. I actually know two
men who are going through divorce, either going
through or have just recently gone through divorce.
And both of them said the divorce came as a shock
to them. One of them is a little bit more, amicable,
yeah, in the sense that he still has access to
his kids, you know, and one of them is not going
so well. One, you know, the ex -wife has said
things like, oh, he used to abuse me. He abuses
the kids. He hasn't had a chance to see his kids.
I think he's had a couple of visits where it's
been supervised. Now, do you find that sometimes
a female might make things up because she's angry
or whatever it is just to hurt the other party?
Like, do you find that that has happened? And
does it sort of hurt the case in a legal sense?
And can you shed any light on something like
that? Yeah. So I think, you know, whenever allegations
of abuse are made, you know, they're treated
quite seriously. Now, when allegations of abuse
are made involving the children, then it's treated
also very seriously when it comes to contact
or access or care. related arrangements. And
so then it becomes a bit problematic, right?
You know, I'm doing an article now about deep
fake and AI imaging in family law. So, you know,
internationally, what the courts are seeing is
that people are creating fake imaging, audio
recordings, emails, etc. to basically supplant
or to what could already be real, right? So something
could be real and you supplant it, or it could
be completely made up. So could this be like
your situation of they have to prove adultery,
so they're creating an AI image or whatever it
is so that they can... Proof. That you're right.
Exactly. But then what it would mean is just
more work for us in just ensuring that, you know,
we would say, well, sorry, you have to prove
it authenticity that that thing is real. Wow.
It's just like, you know, in the past, it's not
like fake images didn't exist or fake documents
didn't exist. In the past, what it was was, you
know, it was just differently done, less easy,
less straightforward. Right. But it could still
have been done. Right. So there are legal processes
for these things. Now, back to what you're saying,
right? Could it be that people feel inclined
to make stuff up or exaggerate because they are
in litigation? Yes. The way I see it is, you
know, divorce or a breakdown of any relationship
is actually a social emotional situation. And
the legal proceedings are there to kind of say,
okay, this is what happens in terms of both parties'
rights. But it's not a perfect solution for what
the actual problem is. right so you have an imperfect
situation where the solution doesn't always fit
the problem then people use legal proceedings
in a way to vent to you know potentially raise
allegations that are inaccurate or exaggerated
etc in a way of getting back at that person and
obviously that is a typically ineffective strategy
and also a strategy that is incredibly hurtful
to both sides in the longer run and with the
children as well, because, you know, there is
so much evidence that really children do benefit
from having two parents in their life rather
than a parent who is, you know, when you talked
about your friend who is alienated or has no
contact with their kids for a prolonged period.
And sometimes I guess people can see spouses
in a situation where the men or women, they can
see the child as another asset like how do I
if this the child is whole how do I cover up
the child's time like it becomes a zero -sum
game if you want more time you're taking more
time from me yeah and therefore I need to fight
very hard I mean I don't know if I had custody
of the kids I'd be like oh you can take that
deal with a situation and if if kids are involved
like do you find that people do want to have
split custody or do you still see that you know
women tend to get more of it like what's the
situation like here in Singapore? Right so custody
the term in Singapore means parental responsibility,
joint decision making over major decisions okay
so it's like education, religion, health so this
this sort of decisions really you make it maybe
a few times a year now in Singapore Most cases
will be joint custody. The thing that people
fight about is what we call care and control
in different jurisdictions. They might call it
parenting time or residence rights. But basically,
it's the right to live with the children the
majority of the time. And in Singapore, assuming
children are young, the mother tends to be the
preferred carer. A lot of times, not always the
case, the mother tends to also be the primary
caregiver since birth, right? So most cases,
the mother will have care. But we do see many,
many cases where, when it comes to slightly older
children, that care is shared, right? It could
be one week on, one week off, or some sort of
alternating days. And that works if both parents
are fairly evolved and fairly cooperative in
their ability to share care. And I've definitely
seen families who, if they can afford it, what
they do is they actually have three residences.
Their family home stays intact. And the parents
then rent or have a small apartment or studio
elsewhere. And then it kind of come in and out
of that family home. But that tends to be very
much in the minority because, you know, you can
imagine it evolves very high level of maturity.
Do you find that though now? Like, do you feel
that divorces are more amicable than they used
to be? Or it's not as much in a lot of the times
that divorce seems to still be quite a bitter
subject. You know, in Singapore now, you don't
have to rely on fault. You can either separate
for a period of time or you can buy mutual agreement
for divorce. So because of that, there are more
amicable divorces. Statistically, not many cases
will fight to the bitter end. OK, I think the
problem I see or the issue I see when it comes
to expert families is that a big part of it is
the issue of location of the children. That's
a big one. And then just like international assets
around the world, right? So sometimes it makes
it a little bit more difficult. Sometimes there
are two jurisdictions involved. One party might
fall in Australia or UK or the US or wherever
they think they're better off financially and
someone else might fall in Singapore. So then
that's another layer toward the dispute. But
it doesn't mean they're, you know, majority of
cases are still very much, you know, uncontested
in Singapore. Yeah. What was that term that got
very popular a few years ago? The conscious uncoupling.
Oh, that was a good one. Is there more conscious
uncoupling? Obviously, divorce can be very emotionally
draining. What sort of challenges do you see
women, people having not just during, but also
afterwards as well? they tend to self -blame,
they blame themselves for their so -called failure.
And yes, Amanda said. So is it more self -blaming
rather than it was his fault? I'm just kind of...
Sometimes it's a bit of a balance, right? But
a lot of times it's the women that come to me,
they blame themselves, but also realise that,
yeah, it's not their fault. But semantically,
their body knows there's something off, right?
And... talking about the trauma bonds that they've
had with this person because they've invested
so much time with this person. And if we're talking
about your nervous system and your chemicals
in your brain, you're actually addicted to that
person. I guess even if that person is narcissistically
abusive or emotionally abusive as well. Right.
And so what I've seen is that. they have this
fear, guilt or shame that is going through their
minds and their emotions of I'm not enough or
they fear that they don't have enough time to,
especially for women in their 40s, to rebuild
their life as well. So through the process, I
help them to reconnect to themselves, rebuild
their sense of self. and then move forward from
building their future. After divorce, is there
anything legally that needs to be done or does
it kind of legally everything stops once? the
divorces taking place. Right. So once there's
a court order in place, you know, that should
be fairly final. But what we see is, and potentially
linked to what Sophie was just talking about,
is that really the co -parenting relationship
carries on. So, you know, this person, which,
you know, maybe there was a deeply hurtful breakdown,
but you still have to communicate with this person
all the time. about the children, about maintenance,
right? So these are the two areas where they
could be continuing disputes over the children
and over maintenance. Lack of payment, blocking
of access, just difficult access arrangements.
Abuse can still continue even if... parties are
apart and you know could have two separate homes
but there's all sorts of things that could still
happen sometimes abuse could happen also through
children financially let's say someone moved
to Singapore they were here on a dependent parcel
didn't really work during their time here so
didn't actually build up any of their own savings
if they were married to say a narcissistic person
who did have control of everything what can what
can the the party who was the dependent do in
order to get some financial control? Is there
any sort of rights in place for them? So through
the court process there would be, you know, what
we call discovery, which is basically the disclosure
of things like bank statements and expense lists
and, you know, receipts and all of those things.
I think the issue a lot of times with such relationships
is that the woman, you're talking about a female
dependent, just has no idea what's happening.
for years and only thing they might have in terms
of knowledge is one joint account and a fixed
sum coming in every month and potentially a supplementary
card and so that lack of visibility in a sense
is a little bit problematic going into proceedings
not having any information but there's certainly
ways that we could support a client to say let's
let this is what we could do to find out Now,
where a person comes to me and say, you know,
I've been together for 10 years or eight years
or whatever, but I haven't contributed financially
towards the assets. then potentially they are
weaker compared to if they were to divorce in
a different country, like their home country,
if they had the ability to follow else. I didn't
realize that. I thought it would be. That's why
we that's why we did it here. So my ex husband
and I were both American. I'm still American.
I think he is, too. And yeah, we divorced in
California because it was very, very easy. Right.
So California, for example, is a 50 50 state.
Very clear. Very clear. England is actually generally
50 50, although the exceptions as well. But Singapore
isn't automatically 50 -50. Okay, can we not
discuss this because I don't want my husband
David. So it's not 50, but that's interesting.
It's not automatically 50. It could be for longer
marriages or where both parties have contributed
a little bit financially. Yeah, I had no idea.
Wow, that's interesting. So then it is, so for
expats, it may be beneficial then to file for
divorce in your home country. If possible. So
what we would do is, you know, if an expat client
came to see me, the first thing I would do is
to check off, well, which jurisdiction can she
file in? Interesting. Right. the jurisdictions,
and then we set up a kind of a group meeting
with all the lawyers and all the jurisdictions,
and then we say, this is the jurisdiction, we're
doing it. Obviously, I'm just using this as an
example. The husband wants to file in Singapore
because he's been the main earner, it's his finances,
and she wants to file elsewhere. How do you resolve
that issue? Yeah, that happens all the time.
Yeah, I can imagine. It happens all the time.
So usually, you know, it looks like it's a bit
of a race, right? Which court is gonna proceed
first? And so the husband has filed in Singapore.
Then usually what the wife would do is she would
engage lawyers to try and stop the Singapore
court proceedings and he would try and stop the
foreign court proceedings This happened to a
girlfriend of mine. If you're listening, I know
you know, yeah Yeah, he filed in Hong Kong because
they briefly shared permanent residency there,
but they were absolutely living in Singapore
So it was one of the things where they had this
like brief history of Hong Kong But then but
the Singapore court would have been more favorable
to her He went hard and fast exactly what you're
saying to try and get the proceedings sped up
in Hong Kong because tech technically there were
PRs there. So yeah, there's definitely shady
business that can be done. And luckily they had
no kids because this would have come to a head,
but yeah, it's the race against the courts exactly
what you said. Is there anything that you think
is pertinent for anyone considering divorce to
know or think about that I haven't asked you
guys? Is there anything that you think - Divorce
hacks? Yeah, divorce hacks. And so actually when
a client first sees me and I see that emotionally
quite distraught, not the most stable or in a
great place, yet actually the first thing to
do would be to get emotional support for yourself.
Because there's so much research in the brain
and how really if your prefrontal cortex is overwhelmed,
you cannot think logically, you cannot make good
decisions for yourself or your children. So emotionally
you need to look after yourself, then kind of
take second step. So I always think more information,
more education is always good. right, then you
can take those steps like, okay, I need to start
collecting my financial statements, I need to
start listing out my expenses, etc. It's really
important that when someone says, okay, I believe
I'm a victim of abuse to say, well, in addition
to seeking help for themselves, to actually write
down a document what that means, because if someone
came to me and said, I'm a victim of emotional
abuse, like that's not going to mean anything
for me to be able to provide them the advice,
right? So do you need to say on this day, he
like threw something at a wall, or at this day
he yelled at me and called me names, and at this
day, et cetera, et cetera. So that needs to be
documented very, very well. And where does objective
evidence to have that recorded? I was gonna ask,
so there needs to be proof or? Ideally. Yes,
ideally proof, not witnesses. You know, our definition
of abuse is very, very wide that it now can,
you know, includes. sexual, physical, and also
psychological and emotional abuse. And it could
be one instance, it could be a course of conduct.
And there are many protective measures now in
place in Singapore that could protect a victim
or a survivor from abuse, such as like you could
try and get an order to just say, stay away from
me, you know, or no contact, no communication
order. And really, abuse is something that we
see affecting all sorts of women. and men, right?
It's not just, you know, a lot of times people
think it must only affect The stay at home mother
who has very little financial control. And yes,
that's that's one part of it. But also it really
does affect all sorts of women and men. You'd
be quite surprised actually what kind of women
come through the door and look seeking for support
because they could be high flyers. And you know,
they they are strong, they're independent, they
have it all but behind doors. You don't know
what's going on. Not to judge yourself when you're
going through this process as well. Be gentle
with yourself if you are going through this.
It's important to seek help and support the trauma
-informed perspective of abuse. For me, I don't
diagnose people. just to highlight and make sure
there's a disclaimer in it. If you think that
you need a diagnosis, et cetera, then you go
and see a psychologist, et cetera. Through a
trauma -informed lens, what I do is, you know,
identify certain behaviors, but just work with
what's in front of me at that point of time,
right? So just wanted to be very clear on that.
you know, when you look at certain behaviors
and diagnosis as well, it's hard to tell sometimes.
And so it's really based on how you feel. And
I want to let the women know on this podcast,
even the men, right, that are listening. in the
DSM it says, you need to have five out of eight
criteria. No, to me in a trauma -informed lenses,
you will experience this and let's work on it
and get emotional support for that. We are coming
to the end of the podcast now, but I don't want
to end on a downer. So I do want to ask, What
is your 40s formula for thriving after a divorce?
Now, if you were to give some advice to women,
how they can look at this in a positive light,
what could you say? My 40s formula is pretty
straightforward. So it's reclaim. So rediscover
who you are, which is the process of reconnecting
to your sense of self through the healing journey.
Bring some compassionate energy. within your
space, right? So rather than judging yourself,
just acknowledge where you are at that point
of time and be gentle with yourself. Second step
would be to rebuild yourself financially, emotionally,
personally, just building that foundation of
your house again. And third of all is to redefine
what is love, success and happiness. on your
terms, not on anyone else's terms, not on society
terms, not your mom, your dad or your family,
just you. That is the formula, 40s formula for
me, for my clients and the people listening to
this to thrive in their life. That's lovely.
Love that. I actually think, you know, aside
from all the legal legalities, you know, as to
what can and cannot be done, really operating
within that framework to say, like, this is my
opportunity to kind of make my own identity.
That's about me. Right. And what does that look
like? And am I going to reskill and. decide hey
actually I want to reskill and get a new job
and what is that like because I can do whatever
I want within these boundaries and to be creative
and I see sometimes a lot of clients who come
back and say you know what I've just been my
best self because I can now do whatever I want
without having to report. with someone else.
I love that. It gives you the opportunity to
be you. Yes, authentically you, right? Yeah.
Reclaim, reframe, reskill, rebuild. Reinvent.
Yeah, reinvent. These are the things. The message
about divorce is that it's an opportunity to
reinvent yourself. That's why I wanted a drive
message. It doesn't have to be the end. No, it's
not the end. I mean, we're always continuously
growing if you choose to. Thank you so much.
It's been wonderful having you both here and
sharing your insights on the legal matters and
the emotional matters. So thank you, Sophie.
Thank you, Shime. Thank you. It's been an honor.
Thanks so much for having us. Guys, you know
how much we love coffee. And if you want to show
us some love, you know, you can get us one. Just
visit buymeacoffee .com The 40s Formula. Cheers.
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for more empowering conversations with inspiring
guests. Bye. I think they've like temporarily
blocked me because I did share the link of the
podcast and then it occurred to me they've got
their own podcast so I don't know if they're
like but their podcast is a bit different to
ours. I don't know. Oh, I don't know. That shows
you how much I use the Oracle scenario. But maybe
because they don't want you to promote yourself.
So like so if Sophie had said listen to this
episode of The Voice, maybe it's a bit different.
That's true. But if either of us two do it because
it's ours then we're promoting, I don't know.
I'll do it. There's so many women looking for
support. So I thought, well, if I know someone,
why not?