WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.919 You didn't fail at marriage. You can still have 00:00:02.919 --> 00:00:05.400 marriage. You didn't fail at relationships. You 00:00:05.400 --> 00:00:09.160 can still have relationships. This one situation, 00:00:09.199 --> 00:00:12.460 yeah, didn't work out. It's not a success. I 00:00:12.460 --> 00:00:13.859 mean, you're not still married, right? So it's 00:00:13.859 --> 00:00:17.019 not a success in that sense. But the whole category 00:00:17.019 --> 00:00:19.379 of connection and relationships and marriage 00:00:19.379 --> 00:00:22.600 is still open to you. That still exists for you. 00:00:22.719 --> 00:00:25.039 You know, so it's like I, I use failure in the 00:00:25.039 --> 00:00:29.679 very temporary sense. Yes. Yeah. For me. Y 'all 00:00:29.679 --> 00:00:32.500 can disagree. Being able to see it as a learning 00:00:32.500 --> 00:00:36.700 opportunity to grow from and to see what areas 00:00:36.700 --> 00:00:40.579 in your life you can work on as well on yourself. 00:00:57.159 --> 00:00:59.640 Hello and welcome to the 40s Formula, your go 00:00:59.640 --> 00:01:02.060 -to place for insightful discussions on navigating 00:01:02.060 --> 00:01:04.480 your 40s and thriving in this transformative 00:01:04.480 --> 00:01:07.659 decade. We're your hosts, Amanda and Jasmine, 00:01:08.000 --> 00:01:09.620 two women that are passionate about exploring 00:01:09.620 --> 00:01:11.420 the challenges and adventures that come with 00:01:11.420 --> 00:01:22.870 turning 40 and what lies ahead. Shumi Hoon is 00:01:22.870 --> 00:01:24.950 a sought -after advocate, international speaker 00:01:24.950 --> 00:01:27.790 and a trusted advisor to the modern family. With 00:01:27.790 --> 00:01:29.489 a niche practice in private client and family 00:01:29.489 --> 00:01:32.030 disputes, Shumi appears regularly at all levels 00:01:32.030 --> 00:01:34.049 of the Supreme Court on matters affecting the 00:01:34.049 --> 00:01:36.489 family, many of which involve the valuation of 00:01:36.489 --> 00:01:39.329 family businesses and novel assets, international 00:01:39.329 --> 00:01:42.349 child abduction, family violence, mental capacity 00:01:42.349 --> 00:01:46.180 as well as property and trust disputes. Sophie 00:01:46.180 --> 00:01:48.359 Leong is a trauma -informed confidence coach, 00:01:48.640 --> 00:01:51.040 speaker and thought leader, dedicating to helping 00:01:51.040 --> 00:01:53.659 high -achieving women break free from anxiety, 00:01:54.120 --> 00:01:56.340 self -doubt and burnout so they can step into 00:01:56.340 --> 00:01:58.939 their power with unshakable confidence and self 00:01:58.939 --> 00:02:01.299 -trust, build better relationships in work and 00:02:01.299 --> 00:02:04.319 life and create success on their own terms. As 00:02:04.319 --> 00:02:06.239 the founder of Sophie Leong Co, she has helped 00:02:06.239 --> 00:02:08.620 hundreds of women heal deeply ingrained patterns 00:02:08.620 --> 00:02:11.680 of fear, perfectionism and self -sabotage through 00:02:11.680 --> 00:02:14.240 her signature core confidence mastery framework. 00:02:14.590 --> 00:02:17.469 She is also the visionary behind the Cycle Breakers 00:02:17.469 --> 00:02:20.610 Revolution, a movement empowering women to break 00:02:20.610 --> 00:02:23.430 generational trauma and cultivate emotional resilience, 00:02:23.830 --> 00:02:27.110 abundance and self -empowerment. So today on 00:02:27.110 --> 00:02:28.770 the 40s formula we're going to be diving into 00:02:28.770 --> 00:02:31.150 a topic that we've not covered before and that 00:02:31.150 --> 00:02:34.310 is divorce. So with us today we've got Shimei 00:02:34.310 --> 00:02:36.750 and Sophie Leong and they're both going to be 00:02:36.750 --> 00:02:38.729 talking about the legalities and the emotional 00:02:38.729 --> 00:02:41.750 effects that divorce can have on families and 00:02:41.750 --> 00:02:45.069 couples. So firstly it feels like divorce rates 00:02:45.069 --> 00:02:49.310 in the 40s are on the rise. Why do you both think 00:02:49.310 --> 00:02:53.509 that is? In my perspective women in their 40s 00:02:53.509 --> 00:02:58.960 are experiencing a huge shift in self -awareness 00:02:58.960 --> 00:03:06.039 and so a lot of women they mostly focus on and 00:03:06.039 --> 00:03:09.500 prioritize other things such as family life, 00:03:10.060 --> 00:03:16.400 career, societal expectations and it is at the 00:03:16.400 --> 00:03:19.680 expense of their own emotional well -being. Their 00:03:19.680 --> 00:03:24.080 identity gets lost in the process. Some women, 00:03:24.180 --> 00:03:29.020 what I've observed is they will realize it over 00:03:29.020 --> 00:03:32.419 a period of time, especially when they are in 00:03:32.419 --> 00:03:36.159 emotionally abusive or narcissistically abusive 00:03:36.159 --> 00:03:41.199 relationships, when their self -esteem has eroded 00:03:41.199 --> 00:03:44.800 over a period of time. Others, sometimes they 00:03:44.800 --> 00:03:47.580 feel, oh, there's something missing over a period 00:03:47.580 --> 00:03:52.419 of time. They realize that, oh, they can't finger 00:03:52.419 --> 00:03:55.960 point on it, pinpoint it, but over a period of 00:03:55.960 --> 00:03:58.360 time, they realised that there's something missing 00:03:58.360 --> 00:04:02.259 in their life. And so there are three things 00:04:02.259 --> 00:04:05.900 that I realised for the awakening of a person, 00:04:05.900 --> 00:04:10.439 right? So the first point is financial independence. 00:04:10.830 --> 00:04:14.909 right? When we are building our financial independence, 00:04:15.150 --> 00:04:19.790 we are less likely to be attached to that relationship, 00:04:19.810 --> 00:04:23.470 right? Because a lot of people they marry due 00:04:23.470 --> 00:04:27.689 to financial security, etc. Not all, of course. 00:04:28.670 --> 00:04:33.089 The second thing that I've observed is really 00:04:33.089 --> 00:04:37.110 about the deepening of self -awareness. So when 00:04:37.110 --> 00:04:40.329 we're talking about self -awareness, being aware 00:04:40.329 --> 00:04:44.889 of the unhealthy behavioral habits that has been 00:04:44.889 --> 00:04:49.449 formed in the relationship. So it could be emotional 00:04:49.449 --> 00:04:52.629 abuse, but it could just simply be that, you 00:04:52.629 --> 00:04:56.089 know, things are misaligned because over a period 00:04:56.089 --> 00:05:00.620 of time in a marriage, people evolve. We got 00:05:00.620 --> 00:05:04.720 so this idea of the happily ever after marriage 00:05:04.720 --> 00:05:07.959 where you marry this person and they don't evolve, 00:05:08.480 --> 00:05:11.720 but people grow over a period of time and there's 00:05:11.720 --> 00:05:14.540 this disparity. Maybe your values have changed 00:05:14.540 --> 00:05:18.500 and maybe your perspectives and your desires 00:05:18.500 --> 00:05:22.769 have changed as well. That's the second one that 00:05:22.769 --> 00:05:26.689 I've observed. And the third one is a lot of 00:05:26.689 --> 00:05:30.769 women, they generally get emotionally exhausted 00:05:30.769 --> 00:05:36.579 when they shrink themselves. to fix the marriage. 00:05:36.920 --> 00:05:40.699 Nowadays, the women that I see in my private 00:05:40.699 --> 00:05:43.779 practice, they're not willing to shrink themselves 00:05:43.779 --> 00:05:48.019 anymore. They're not willing to compromise. They 00:05:48.019 --> 00:05:52.079 want to live an authentic life based on their 00:05:52.079 --> 00:05:57.079 terms. What I've observed is women today, they 00:05:57.079 --> 00:06:02.589 are no longer willing to be in that relationship 00:06:02.589 --> 00:06:08.089 because of survival. It's mostly about fulfillment. 00:06:08.649 --> 00:06:11.350 So give us an example of what a woman shrinking 00:06:11.350 --> 00:06:13.490 herself for the sake of relationship. What would 00:06:13.490 --> 00:06:15.149 that mean? Can you like paint us a vignette about 00:06:15.149 --> 00:06:20.269 that? So I have a client who she really just. 00:06:20.569 --> 00:06:25.389 was fixated on saving the marriage and she was 00:06:25.389 --> 00:06:30.209 not speaking up for her needs and who she really 00:06:30.209 --> 00:06:34.759 was, her identity, because she just wanted to 00:06:34.759 --> 00:06:38.959 have this relationship. And if we were to dig 00:06:38.959 --> 00:06:42.660 deeper, it actually goes back to her childhood 00:06:42.660 --> 00:06:47.939 wounds. And what we discovered is she was parentified. 00:06:48.139 --> 00:06:53.720 So parentified is a term where the parents expect 00:06:53.720 --> 00:06:58.699 her to parent the parents. right? And also her 00:06:58.699 --> 00:07:02.379 siblings. Obviously in the process you lose your 00:07:02.379 --> 00:07:05.259 identity because who are you? You're just parenting 00:07:05.259 --> 00:07:08.899 your siblings, you're parenting your parents 00:07:08.899 --> 00:07:12.639 itself and so she doesn't know who she is and 00:07:12.639 --> 00:07:15.600 therefore she doesn't have any boundaries, she 00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:19.620 doesn't have any voice of her own. and identity. 00:07:20.259 --> 00:07:23.220 So then in the relationship, she shrinks herself 00:07:23.220 --> 00:07:26.100 because she's not able to show up authentically 00:07:26.100 --> 00:07:29.319 in that relationship of her wants and desires. 00:07:29.920 --> 00:07:32.279 Before I moved to Singapore, I remember sort 00:07:32.279 --> 00:07:34.699 of googling a few things and I remember seeing 00:07:34.699 --> 00:07:37.860 this article which said that Singapore had a 00:07:37.860 --> 00:07:42.379 high divorce rate amongst expats. And back then, 00:07:42.439 --> 00:07:44.579 the first thing that came to me was infidelity. 00:07:45.040 --> 00:07:48.529 Now, Do you see that infidelity is still a leading 00:07:48.529 --> 00:07:51.290 cause? When people come to you as a lawyer, you 00:07:51.290 --> 00:07:53.649 know, when I can understand sort of emotionally, 00:07:54.149 --> 00:07:56.829 do they sort of bring up other things as being 00:07:56.829 --> 00:08:00.310 the driving force rather than I just don't have 00:08:00.310 --> 00:08:02.110 the same values as my husband anymore? So from 00:08:02.110 --> 00:08:03.990 your perspective, do you see it a bit differently? 00:08:04.769 --> 00:08:08.089 So statistically, what the data shows us is that 00:08:08.089 --> 00:08:10.269 there's a lot of breakdown at that kind of five 00:08:10.269 --> 00:08:13.399 to eight year point of marriage. So maybe no 00:08:13.399 --> 00:08:15.879 kids or kids are very little. And then there's 00:08:15.879 --> 00:08:19.560 a bit of a break in terms of numbers. Then the 00:08:19.560 --> 00:08:21.800 second large period of time is when people have 00:08:21.800 --> 00:08:23.720 been in a relationship for quite a long time. 00:08:24.180 --> 00:08:27.459 So 15 to 20 years years, the marriage is a long 00:08:27.459 --> 00:08:30.459 marriage. The children are very big, potentially 00:08:30.459 --> 00:08:34.059 teenagers going to college and that. Right. So 00:08:34.059 --> 00:08:36.360 I think that kind of feeds into what Sophie's 00:08:36.360 --> 00:08:38.879 saying. Right. Potentially for that second group 00:08:38.879 --> 00:08:42.120 of women. You know, they might be more stable, 00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:44.059 more financially independent. The children are 00:08:44.059 --> 00:08:46.700 bigger. They say, I can now make this decision 00:08:46.700 --> 00:08:50.019 that is for myself. You know, now that the kids 00:08:50.019 --> 00:08:52.960 are sorted, I don't have to worry about care 00:08:52.960 --> 00:08:56.440 and custody issues. Now, with that, actually, 00:08:56.639 --> 00:08:59.820 is there's also some research in the UK. And 00:08:59.820 --> 00:09:01.679 this piece of research is quite controversial. 00:09:01.879 --> 00:09:03.960 It's called the Family Law Menopause Project. 00:09:04.379 --> 00:09:06.799 and it speaks about how the relationship between 00:09:06.799 --> 00:09:09.799 divorce and menopause. And they suggest that 00:09:09.799 --> 00:09:12.919 there's a link. I think out of the respondents 00:09:12.919 --> 00:09:16.720 survey, something like 70 -ish percent said that 00:09:16.720 --> 00:09:19.899 they felt that there was a link between symptoms 00:09:19.899 --> 00:09:22.779 and the actual breakdown of their marriage. I 00:09:22.779 --> 00:09:25.159 can see that. I can see that totally happening. 00:09:25.720 --> 00:09:27.970 You're going through all of this stuff. and your 00:09:27.970 --> 00:09:31.909 husband thinks you're batshit crazy. Who is this 00:09:31.909 --> 00:09:34.049 woman? I did not marry this woman. And then internally 00:09:34.049 --> 00:09:35.830 you're like, oh my God, he's fucking pissing 00:09:35.830 --> 00:09:38.830 me off. Yeah, because all of this stuff is irritability, 00:09:39.690 --> 00:09:42.230 right? Mood swings, vaginal dryness, things that 00:09:42.230 --> 00:09:44.950 like your husband's going to notice. So yeah, 00:09:44.950 --> 00:09:47.690 I get it. I get it. And it's potentially is also 00:09:47.690 --> 00:09:49.889 controversial because, you know, some people 00:09:49.889 --> 00:09:52.590 might think, well, it minimizes the woman's right 00:09:52.590 --> 00:09:55.389 to make a decision anyway. And both could be 00:09:55.389 --> 00:09:58.309 true, right? Back to then your second question 00:09:58.309 --> 00:10:01.929 is infidelity, the leading cause. So, you know, 00:10:02.590 --> 00:10:05.110 in Singapore, when you file for divorce, you 00:10:05.110 --> 00:10:08.309 know, you can choose adultery. You can also choose 00:10:08.309 --> 00:10:09.970 unreasonable behavior. Those are the two kind 00:10:09.970 --> 00:10:13.230 of fault base. common fault -based grounds and 00:10:13.230 --> 00:10:15.730 reasonable behavior, the leading fault -based 00:10:15.730 --> 00:10:18.789 ground. But we do see infidelity quite a lot. 00:10:19.169 --> 00:10:21.149 Now, it's hard for me to say whether it is the 00:10:21.149 --> 00:10:22.750 leading cause. There's certainly a lot of marriages 00:10:22.750 --> 00:10:25.730 that break down because of other reasons like 00:10:25.730 --> 00:10:28.509 value clashes. They just feel like, you know, 00:10:28.509 --> 00:10:30.549 we've been together for 15 to 20 years. The kids 00:10:30.549 --> 00:10:33.090 are big and now we just cannot talk to each other 00:10:33.090 --> 00:10:36.149 anymore. We have nothing in common. And I've 00:10:36.149 --> 00:10:38.330 just kind of kept it together for all of this 00:10:38.330 --> 00:10:41.230 time. What would you say are unreasonable but 00:10:41.230 --> 00:10:43.850 unreasonable behavior? And is, does that unreasonable 00:10:43.850 --> 00:10:46.470 behavior usually come from the woman's point 00:10:46.470 --> 00:10:48.250 of view or is it from the man's point of view 00:10:48.250 --> 00:10:49.950 now? Cause I'm just thinking of menopause. Like 00:10:49.950 --> 00:10:51.850 who's filing? Yeah, it depends who files, right? 00:10:51.850 --> 00:10:54.610 Okay. So, and it could be, it could be very mild 00:10:54.610 --> 00:10:56.730 behavior over a prolonged period of time. It 00:10:56.730 --> 00:11:00.320 could be a few incidents. So very wide ranging, 00:11:00.379 --> 00:11:03.100 anything from extremely abusive behavior to like, 00:11:03.340 --> 00:11:05.059 this person's incredibly messy and doesn't talk 00:11:05.059 --> 00:11:07.360 to me. And that's unreasonable, right? Yeah. 00:11:07.379 --> 00:11:09.200 Correct me if I'm wrong. Adultery, you have to 00:11:09.200 --> 00:11:11.179 prove it here, right? You have to have a documented 00:11:11.179 --> 00:11:13.720 instance of adultery, which is why, like a lot 00:11:13.720 --> 00:11:15.440 of times it goes to unreasonable behavior because 00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:17.700 it's like, I can't prove it to you, but I know 00:11:17.700 --> 00:11:19.679 what happened. Yeah. Right. So you don't have 00:11:19.679 --> 00:11:21.519 to prove it happened in that you don't have to 00:11:21.519 --> 00:11:23.559 have a video of two people having sex. You have 00:11:23.559 --> 00:11:26.360 to have a text, right? You need something else. 00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:29.330 You need to show basically that there was an 00:11:29.330 --> 00:11:32.190 opportunity to commit adultery and an inclination. 00:11:32.549 --> 00:11:34.070 So these two people have spent a lot of time 00:11:34.070 --> 00:11:36.289 together. So, you know, earlier before the podcast 00:11:36.289 --> 00:11:39.789 started, you talked about that person with the 00:11:39.789 --> 00:11:41.649 colleague, their female colleague, right? Or 00:11:41.649 --> 00:11:44.169 male colleague over a prolonged period. And then 00:11:44.169 --> 00:11:46.990 they went on a business trip and then they went 00:11:46.990 --> 00:11:49.690 away for a weekend. And then there was a lie, 00:11:49.750 --> 00:11:52.129 right? So you kind of put the pieces together. 00:11:53.639 --> 00:11:55.600 a colleague who they're spending a lot of time 00:11:55.600 --> 00:11:57.200 with, they want to own a business trip. Is the 00:11:57.200 --> 00:12:00.399 business trip enough to show? I know it has to 00:12:00.399 --> 00:12:03.200 be a weekend away. Usually what we would do is 00:12:03.200 --> 00:12:06.179 we would have a PI following the person. Ooh, 00:12:06.220 --> 00:12:09.980 I love it. Yeah, so they were in the hotel room 00:12:09.980 --> 00:12:12.899 for like six hours. That's my next job. And then 00:12:12.899 --> 00:12:15.659 they would come out and usually I think. You 00:12:15.659 --> 00:12:17.919 know, people, we're human, right? So, you're 00:12:17.919 --> 00:12:19.820 in a foreign country, you're relaxed, and then 00:12:19.820 --> 00:12:22.100 there's a bit of hand -holding and kissing and 00:12:22.100 --> 00:12:24.399 something, and it's like, okay, we put the pieces 00:12:24.399 --> 00:12:27.299 together, there's probably going to be adultery. 00:12:28.159 --> 00:12:30.940 And then, of course, there will be text messages 00:12:30.940 --> 00:12:33.440 and emails and other things as well. Divorce 00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:35.879 in your 40s or in your old years is very different 00:12:35.879 --> 00:12:38.580 to divorce when you're younger, say pre -kids. 00:12:39.159 --> 00:12:40.779 So, let's say you've got kids, you've got shared 00:12:40.779 --> 00:12:43.240 assets, you've obviously got years of history. 00:12:44.029 --> 00:12:47.570 What are the sort of the biggest challenges that 00:12:47.570 --> 00:12:51.690 people face in their older years when they're 00:12:51.690 --> 00:12:53.690 going through this? So when they're older and 00:12:53.690 --> 00:12:55.509 they've been together for a long time, regardless 00:12:55.509 --> 00:12:58.110 of whether it is, you know, how long the marriage 00:12:58.110 --> 00:13:00.470 is, right? They would have built up assets together, 00:13:00.470 --> 00:13:02.669 whether those assets are shared or in their own 00:13:02.669 --> 00:13:04.830 name. Sometimes they might run a business together, 00:13:04.830 --> 00:13:07.389 right? So one of the big issues would be, well, 00:13:07.389 --> 00:13:09.350 you've been together for so long, and at some 00:13:09.350 --> 00:13:11.470 point we need to identify what the assets are. 00:13:11.490 --> 00:13:14.679 We need to divide them. So a big one for long 00:13:14.679 --> 00:13:16.879 marriages would be, well, what are the assets, 00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:20.500 right? Are these divisible or not? Would it be 00:13:20.500 --> 00:13:22.539 inheritance? Is that out because of inheritance? 00:13:22.659 --> 00:13:26.019 Is it a family gift? If it is a business you 00:13:26.019 --> 00:13:28.759 want together, how would you value it? How would 00:13:28.759 --> 00:13:30.740 you divide it? Who is going to stay on to run 00:13:30.740 --> 00:13:33.600 that business? You know, because presumably post 00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:35.059 divorce, two people are not going to want to 00:13:35.059 --> 00:13:37.419 run a business together. Right. Yeah. And then, 00:13:37.460 --> 00:13:40.000 of course, there are other issues in relation 00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:42.980 to Is the woman financially dependent or not? 00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:44.860 What does the future look like? Are they going 00:13:44.860 --> 00:13:47.019 to re -skill and go back to work if they've been 00:13:47.019 --> 00:13:49.440 financially dependent on their spouse or partner 00:13:49.440 --> 00:13:53.019 for a very, very long time? And are they going 00:13:53.019 --> 00:13:56.059 to stay on in Singapore if they're here, right? 00:13:56.159 --> 00:13:58.360 Or are they going to go home? What does that 00:13:58.360 --> 00:14:00.460 look like in terms of employment as well? So 00:14:00.460 --> 00:14:03.600 how does that work then? So let's say a divorce 00:14:03.600 --> 00:14:07.409 is happening. You've got kids. You've been on 00:14:07.409 --> 00:14:09.509 a say dependent pass and your husband's been 00:14:09.509 --> 00:14:14.570 the main earner while being here. Are you allowed 00:14:14.570 --> 00:14:19.850 to go back? Because I've seen these things about, 00:14:19.850 --> 00:14:22.690 it's considered child abduction. If you take 00:14:22.690 --> 00:14:24.110 your kids and you go back to your home country, 00:14:24.509 --> 00:14:26.210 is that a thing? Like you're not allowed to do 00:14:26.210 --> 00:14:28.740 that as a parent? You're not allowed to do it 00:14:28.740 --> 00:14:31.460 if you don't have consent from the other parent 00:14:31.460 --> 00:14:33.919 and it's not a holiday, right? So if you say, 00:14:34.019 --> 00:14:36.159 I'm going to take the kids back to England for 00:14:36.159 --> 00:14:38.179 two weeks and I'm coming back in this day, that's 00:14:38.179 --> 00:14:41.899 fine. Now, if on the last day you're like, actually, 00:14:42.019 --> 00:14:44.360 I'm not getting on a flight because we're over 00:14:44.360 --> 00:14:47.679 and I'm staying put, then it's a problem. OK, 00:14:47.700 --> 00:14:50.399 and the reason why people say that child abduction 00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:52.779 is because we have a convention. It's called 00:14:52.779 --> 00:14:56.039 the 1988 Convention on International Child Abduction. 00:14:56.490 --> 00:14:59.730 Now, not every country is a signatory, but if 00:14:59.730 --> 00:15:02.830 there is a relationship, as in both countries 00:15:02.830 --> 00:15:05.169 are signatories, what happens is there is a court 00:15:05.169 --> 00:15:07.649 procedure that makes it quite quick. So the trial 00:15:07.649 --> 00:15:10.350 is done within six weeks. There's only very narrow 00:15:10.350 --> 00:15:14.090 exceptions as to why an abducting parent can 00:15:14.090 --> 00:15:16.409 remain in that country that they've abducted 00:15:16.409 --> 00:15:19.610 the children to. Majority of times they will 00:15:19.610 --> 00:15:23.110 be sent back. What if the husband cancels the 00:15:23.110 --> 00:15:26.299 wife's dependence pass? Is that possible? Yeah, 00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:29.799 so that can happen, but that would probably not 00:15:29.799 --> 00:15:32.559 be an exception that allows the woman to remain 00:15:32.559 --> 00:15:35.000 because the other things, you know, so the courts 00:15:35.000 --> 00:15:38.519 would look at, well, can Singapore provide protective 00:15:38.519 --> 00:15:41.059 measures for the mother in that case? Yeah, right. 00:15:41.179 --> 00:15:43.879 And they would. They would allow the mother to 00:15:43.879 --> 00:15:46.200 stay here, provide her protection, provide her 00:15:46.200 --> 00:15:49.759 maintenance, abduction or removal of the child 00:15:49.759 --> 00:15:53.019 to a different country is often, I would say, 00:15:53.240 --> 00:15:56.590 highly discouraged just because You know, even 00:15:56.590 --> 00:15:59.570 if you do it and you think, OK, I can do it, 00:15:59.610 --> 00:16:03.029 you know, I'm going back home to me is India, 00:16:03.409 --> 00:16:05.830 home to me is Malaysia, home to me, some other 00:16:05.830 --> 00:16:08.210 country does not hate country. It could still 00:16:08.210 --> 00:16:11.049 be problematic. It's like litigation in two countries, 00:16:11.690 --> 00:16:15.669 essentially. That process of a very drastic removal 00:16:15.669 --> 00:16:17.970 is actually seem to be very, very traumatic for 00:16:17.970 --> 00:16:19.970 the children. There's much better to kind of 00:16:19.970 --> 00:16:23.230 go and plan to say, okay, can we negotiate land 00:16:23.230 --> 00:16:25.909 relocation? Maybe not now, maybe when the kids 00:16:25.909 --> 00:16:31.009 are 13 or 16 or some milestone for them and what 00:16:31.009 --> 00:16:33.350 does that look like? So if someone is considering 00:16:33.350 --> 00:16:37.070 a divorce, what are the sort of steps that they 00:16:37.070 --> 00:16:41.220 should prepare for or think about? if they're 00:16:41.220 --> 00:16:43.620 obviously just considering it, like what sort 00:16:43.620 --> 00:16:46.340 of things should they be sort of thinking about? 00:16:46.580 --> 00:16:51.720 I always say there are four steps. One is to 00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:54.980 pause and reflect because it's really important 00:16:54.980 --> 00:16:59.539 to understand what is actually happening in the 00:16:59.539 --> 00:17:03.039 relationship. Often in a relationship, it kind 00:17:03.039 --> 00:17:09.349 of highlights past childhood wounds or behaviors 00:17:09.349 --> 00:17:13.690 that show up. And we will not know until we dive 00:17:13.690 --> 00:17:17.609 deeper into discovering that. But when you do, 00:17:17.789 --> 00:17:20.829 then you can know where you stand in the relationship. 00:17:21.009 --> 00:17:25.289 And that gives you clarity on how to move forward. 00:17:26.069 --> 00:17:31.230 Right. And so for the second step is to get informed. 00:17:31.650 --> 00:17:36.150 Right. So getting informed is on a legal stance. 00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:40.200 having legal awareness, thankfully we have wonderful 00:17:40.200 --> 00:17:45.299 lawyers like Shumi, financial awareness, and 00:17:45.299 --> 00:17:50.339 third of all is emotional support. So from professionals 00:17:50.339 --> 00:17:53.819 like myself, because when you go through such 00:17:53.819 --> 00:17:58.200 traumatic experiences, it is even more critical 00:17:58.200 --> 00:18:01.900 to have emotional support. Of course, some will 00:18:01.900 --> 00:18:06.450 think about the financial burdens. Finding that 00:18:06.450 --> 00:18:10.269 emotional support wherever you can is crucial. 00:18:11.569 --> 00:18:15.549 I have a few clients that go through the divorce 00:18:15.549 --> 00:18:18.980 process. When they are going through the divorce 00:18:18.980 --> 00:18:22.420 process, it's very difficult, it's very challenging 00:18:22.420 --> 00:18:26.859 for them because they feel the emotions and they 00:18:26.859 --> 00:18:30.619 sometimes are trauma bonded to the person, even 00:18:30.619 --> 00:18:34.700 though they know on a logical stance that that 00:18:34.700 --> 00:18:38.200 person has hurt them very deeply. Third of all 00:18:38.200 --> 00:18:40.930 is building a support system, which I... kind 00:18:40.930 --> 00:18:43.970 of touched upon, whether it's your friends, whether 00:18:43.970 --> 00:18:47.250 it's your family or even your colleagues, because 00:18:47.250 --> 00:18:50.250 it's so important when you're going through a 00:18:50.250 --> 00:18:55.309 divorce, it can feel very lonely. Being with 00:18:55.309 --> 00:18:59.109 women who perhaps have gone through similar things, 00:18:59.990 --> 00:19:03.950 who see it in a positive light, not to drag them 00:19:03.950 --> 00:19:08.519 down with negativity, of course. It's important 00:19:08.519 --> 00:19:11.880 to feel that support, to be seen, to be heard, 00:19:12.259 --> 00:19:15.680 and to feel deeply supported. The fourth step 00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:19.119 is to prepare for the future because when you're 00:19:19.119 --> 00:19:22.940 going through divorce, yes, it is an end to a 00:19:22.940 --> 00:19:25.640 chapter in your life. And you might feel like 00:19:25.640 --> 00:19:30.450 it's a so -called failure, but it's not. I would 00:19:30.450 --> 00:19:34.250 gently encourage you to see it as creating space 00:19:34.250 --> 00:19:38.910 for yourself for self -growth and healing, because 00:19:38.910 --> 00:19:42.990 what happens in a divorce is it highlights certain 00:19:42.990 --> 00:19:46.410 things that you might not have addressed, behavioral 00:19:46.410 --> 00:19:50.569 patterns that you that arise from your childhood 00:19:50.569 --> 00:19:56.279 to heal. So it creates a more aligned future 00:19:56.279 --> 00:19:59.680 for you to actually thrive in your life. Can 00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:02.480 I counterpoint that I actually do view my divorce 00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:05.759 as a failure? But let me comment on how I mean 00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:07.940 this. I think of it in the sense of the word 00:20:07.940 --> 00:20:10.599 failure, how I think of when I fail a lift, like 00:20:10.599 --> 00:20:13.039 in the gym. Yeah. It's like, OK, so I throw up 00:20:13.039 --> 00:20:14.740 this snatch. I don't make it right. My elbow 00:20:14.740 --> 00:20:16.890 bends, whatever. I don't lock out. Barbells on 00:20:16.890 --> 00:20:20.089 the floor. It does not mean that I am bad at 00:20:20.089 --> 00:20:22.369 snatching Yeah, it does not mean that I am bad 00:20:22.369 --> 00:20:23.789 at lifting and it does not mean that I'm not 00:20:23.789 --> 00:20:25.670 an athlete It does not mean I will never lift 00:20:25.670 --> 00:20:30.410 that barbell. It means that today I failed at 00:20:30.410 --> 00:20:32.529 this lift and so I think what would have been 00:20:32.529 --> 00:20:34.170 important for me to know when I went through 00:20:34.170 --> 00:20:37.289 my divorce years ago was like You don't you didn't 00:20:37.289 --> 00:20:40.049 fail at marriage. You can still have marriage. 00:20:40.170 --> 00:20:42.329 Yeah, you didn't fail at relationships. You can 00:20:42.329 --> 00:20:45.829 still have relationships This one situation. 00:20:45.990 --> 00:20:48.769 Yeah didn't work out like you can't it's not 00:20:48.769 --> 00:20:50.230 a six. I mean, you're not still married, right? 00:20:50.309 --> 00:20:52.589 So it's not a success in that sense, but the 00:20:52.589 --> 00:20:55.569 whole category of connection and relationships 00:20:55.569 --> 00:20:58.369 and marriage is still open to you Yeah, that 00:20:58.369 --> 00:21:00.390 still exists for you. You know, so it's like 00:21:00.390 --> 00:21:03.069 I I use failure in the very temporary sense. 00:21:03.190 --> 00:21:09.200 Yes. Yeah For me, being able to see it as a learning 00:21:09.200 --> 00:21:13.400 opportunity to grow from and to see what areas 00:21:13.400 --> 00:21:17.279 in your life you can work on as well on yourself, 00:21:17.279 --> 00:21:20.140 because a lot of times when you're in a relationship, 00:21:20.140 --> 00:21:24.420 as I mentioned, it it's a reflection of what's 00:21:24.420 --> 00:21:27.940 going internally, the way that you communicate, 00:21:27.980 --> 00:21:31.819 the way that you show up for yourself, your attachment 00:21:31.819 --> 00:21:34.349 style. I believe that you've spoken. about that 00:21:34.349 --> 00:21:38.549 before. It helps you to heal parts of you that 00:21:38.549 --> 00:21:41.549 allows you to attract a healthier relationship, 00:21:41.609 --> 00:21:46.329 whether you want it or not. I actually know two 00:21:46.329 --> 00:21:49.569 men who are going through divorce, either going 00:21:49.569 --> 00:21:52.029 through or have just recently gone through divorce. 00:21:52.710 --> 00:21:56.390 And both of them said the divorce came as a shock 00:21:56.390 --> 00:22:00.769 to them. One of them is a little bit more, amicable, 00:22:01.150 --> 00:22:03.990 yeah, in the sense that he still has access to 00:22:03.990 --> 00:22:07.430 his kids, you know, and one of them is not going 00:22:07.430 --> 00:22:12.069 so well. One, you know, the ex -wife has said 00:22:12.069 --> 00:22:14.170 things like, oh, he used to abuse me. He abuses 00:22:14.170 --> 00:22:16.369 the kids. He hasn't had a chance to see his kids. 00:22:16.390 --> 00:22:18.849 I think he's had a couple of visits where it's 00:22:18.849 --> 00:22:24.750 been supervised. Now, do you find that sometimes 00:22:24.750 --> 00:22:30.210 a female might make things up because she's angry 00:22:30.210 --> 00:22:34.609 or whatever it is just to hurt the other party? 00:22:34.829 --> 00:22:36.869 Like, do you find that that has happened? And 00:22:36.869 --> 00:22:41.170 does it sort of hurt the case in a legal sense? 00:22:41.910 --> 00:22:44.089 And can you shed any light on something like 00:22:44.089 --> 00:22:47.529 that? Yeah. So I think, you know, whenever allegations 00:22:47.529 --> 00:22:49.609 of abuse are made, you know, they're treated 00:22:49.609 --> 00:22:52.490 quite seriously. Now, when allegations of abuse 00:22:52.490 --> 00:22:55.490 are made involving the children, then it's treated 00:22:55.490 --> 00:22:57.730 also very seriously when it comes to contact 00:22:57.730 --> 00:23:01.349 or access or care. related arrangements. And 00:23:01.349 --> 00:23:03.529 so then it becomes a bit problematic, right? 00:23:03.789 --> 00:23:07.230 You know, I'm doing an article now about deep 00:23:07.230 --> 00:23:11.009 fake and AI imaging in family law. So, you know, 00:23:11.269 --> 00:23:13.369 internationally, what the courts are seeing is 00:23:13.369 --> 00:23:18.650 that people are creating fake imaging, audio 00:23:18.650 --> 00:23:24.730 recordings, emails, etc. to basically supplant 00:23:24.730 --> 00:23:27.470 or to what could already be real, right? So something 00:23:27.470 --> 00:23:29.930 could be real and you supplant it, or it could 00:23:29.930 --> 00:23:31.529 be completely made up. So could this be like 00:23:31.529 --> 00:23:33.829 your situation of they have to prove adultery, 00:23:33.869 --> 00:23:36.630 so they're creating an AI image or whatever it 00:23:36.630 --> 00:23:40.619 is so that they can... Proof. That you're right. 00:23:41.180 --> 00:23:42.619 Exactly. But then what it would mean is just 00:23:42.619 --> 00:23:45.660 more work for us in just ensuring that, you know, 00:23:45.799 --> 00:23:47.680 we would say, well, sorry, you have to prove 00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:50.579 it authenticity that that thing is real. Wow. 00:23:50.799 --> 00:23:52.480 It's just like, you know, in the past, it's not 00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:55.000 like fake images didn't exist or fake documents 00:23:55.000 --> 00:23:56.740 didn't exist. In the past, what it was was, you 00:23:56.740 --> 00:23:59.700 know, it was just differently done, less easy, 00:23:59.880 --> 00:24:02.220 less straightforward. Right. But it could still 00:24:02.220 --> 00:24:04.559 have been done. Right. So there are legal processes 00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:07.089 for these things. Now, back to what you're saying, 00:24:07.509 --> 00:24:11.089 right? Could it be that people feel inclined 00:24:11.089 --> 00:24:14.430 to make stuff up or exaggerate because they are 00:24:14.430 --> 00:24:17.650 in litigation? Yes. The way I see it is, you 00:24:17.650 --> 00:24:19.690 know, divorce or a breakdown of any relationship 00:24:19.690 --> 00:24:24.250 is actually a social emotional situation. And 00:24:24.250 --> 00:24:27.650 the legal proceedings are there to kind of say, 00:24:27.710 --> 00:24:30.029 okay, this is what happens in terms of both parties' 00:24:30.529 --> 00:24:33.150 rights. But it's not a perfect solution for what 00:24:33.150 --> 00:24:36.309 the actual problem is. right so you have an imperfect 00:24:36.309 --> 00:24:38.130 situation where the solution doesn't always fit 00:24:38.130 --> 00:24:40.930 the problem then people use legal proceedings 00:24:40.930 --> 00:24:45.910 in a way to vent to you know potentially raise 00:24:45.910 --> 00:24:48.549 allegations that are inaccurate or exaggerated 00:24:48.549 --> 00:24:52.710 etc in a way of getting back at that person and 00:24:52.710 --> 00:24:56.509 obviously that is a typically ineffective strategy 00:24:56.509 --> 00:25:00.680 and also a strategy that is incredibly hurtful 00:25:00.680 --> 00:25:03.259 to both sides in the longer run and with the 00:25:03.259 --> 00:25:05.119 children as well, because, you know, there is 00:25:05.119 --> 00:25:09.019 so much evidence that really children do benefit 00:25:09.019 --> 00:25:12.980 from having two parents in their life rather 00:25:12.980 --> 00:25:14.980 than a parent who is, you know, when you talked 00:25:14.980 --> 00:25:17.900 about your friend who is alienated or has no 00:25:17.900 --> 00:25:20.440 contact with their kids for a prolonged period. 00:25:20.500 --> 00:25:23.960 And sometimes I guess people can see spouses 00:25:23.960 --> 00:25:26.599 in a situation where the men or women, they can 00:25:26.599 --> 00:25:31.109 see the child as another asset like how do I 00:25:31.109 --> 00:25:34.289 if this the child is whole how do I cover up 00:25:34.289 --> 00:25:37.170 the child's time like it becomes a zero -sum 00:25:37.170 --> 00:25:39.289 game if you want more time you're taking more 00:25:39.289 --> 00:25:42.089 time from me yeah and therefore I need to fight 00:25:42.089 --> 00:25:44.750 very hard I mean I don't know if I had custody 00:25:44.750 --> 00:25:48.089 of the kids I'd be like oh you can take that 00:25:52.329 --> 00:25:54.849 deal with a situation and if if kids are involved 00:25:54.849 --> 00:25:58.849 like do you find that people do want to have 00:25:58.849 --> 00:26:02.089 split custody or do you still see that you know 00:26:02.089 --> 00:26:04.690 women tend to get more of it like what's the 00:26:04.690 --> 00:26:06.809 situation like here in Singapore? Right so custody 00:26:06.809 --> 00:26:10.930 the term in Singapore means parental responsibility, 00:26:11.170 --> 00:26:14.150 joint decision making over major decisions okay 00:26:14.150 --> 00:26:17.490 so it's like education, religion, health so this 00:26:17.490 --> 00:26:19.650 this sort of decisions really you make it maybe 00:26:19.650 --> 00:26:22.680 a few times a year now in Singapore Most cases 00:26:22.680 --> 00:26:24.880 will be joint custody. The thing that people 00:26:24.880 --> 00:26:27.299 fight about is what we call care and control 00:26:27.299 --> 00:26:29.119 in different jurisdictions. They might call it 00:26:29.119 --> 00:26:31.980 parenting time or residence rights. But basically, 00:26:32.119 --> 00:26:35.660 it's the right to live with the children the 00:26:35.660 --> 00:26:38.460 majority of the time. And in Singapore, assuming 00:26:38.460 --> 00:26:41.359 children are young, the mother tends to be the 00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:44.420 preferred carer. A lot of times, not always the 00:26:44.420 --> 00:26:46.640 case, the mother tends to also be the primary 00:26:46.640 --> 00:26:49.579 caregiver since birth, right? So most cases, 00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:53.599 the mother will have care. But we do see many, 00:26:53.599 --> 00:26:56.279 many cases where, when it comes to slightly older 00:26:56.279 --> 00:26:59.200 children, that care is shared, right? It could 00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:01.880 be one week on, one week off, or some sort of 00:27:01.880 --> 00:27:05.500 alternating days. And that works if both parents 00:27:05.500 --> 00:27:09.099 are fairly evolved and fairly cooperative in 00:27:09.099 --> 00:27:11.599 their ability to share care. And I've definitely 00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:14.500 seen families who, if they can afford it, what 00:27:14.500 --> 00:27:16.779 they do is they actually have three residences. 00:27:17.079 --> 00:27:19.819 Their family home stays intact. And the parents 00:27:19.819 --> 00:27:24.000 then rent or have a small apartment or studio 00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:26.180 elsewhere. And then it kind of come in and out 00:27:26.180 --> 00:27:29.559 of that family home. But that tends to be very 00:27:29.559 --> 00:27:32.180 much in the minority because, you know, you can 00:27:32.180 --> 00:27:35.480 imagine it evolves very high level of maturity. 00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:39.759 Do you find that though now? Like, do you feel 00:27:39.759 --> 00:27:43.460 that divorces are more amicable than they used 00:27:43.460 --> 00:27:47.220 to be? Or it's not as much in a lot of the times 00:27:47.220 --> 00:27:49.859 that divorce seems to still be quite a bitter 00:27:49.859 --> 00:27:52.200 subject. You know, in Singapore now, you don't 00:27:52.200 --> 00:27:54.759 have to rely on fault. You can either separate 00:27:54.759 --> 00:27:57.180 for a period of time or you can buy mutual agreement 00:27:57.180 --> 00:28:00.700 for divorce. So because of that, there are more 00:28:00.700 --> 00:28:04.960 amicable divorces. Statistically, not many cases 00:28:04.960 --> 00:28:08.220 will fight to the bitter end. OK, I think the 00:28:08.220 --> 00:28:10.859 problem I see or the issue I see when it comes 00:28:10.859 --> 00:28:16.660 to expert families is that a big part of it is 00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:21.180 the issue of location of the children. That's 00:28:21.180 --> 00:28:23.599 a big one. And then just like international assets 00:28:23.599 --> 00:28:26.960 around the world, right? So sometimes it makes 00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:29.140 it a little bit more difficult. Sometimes there 00:28:29.140 --> 00:28:31.859 are two jurisdictions involved. One party might 00:28:31.859 --> 00:28:34.319 fall in Australia or UK or the US or wherever 00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:37.099 they think they're better off financially and 00:28:37.099 --> 00:28:39.420 someone else might fall in Singapore. So then 00:28:39.420 --> 00:28:43.500 that's another layer toward the dispute. But 00:28:43.500 --> 00:28:45.420 it doesn't mean they're, you know, majority of 00:28:45.420 --> 00:28:48.420 cases are still very much, you know, uncontested 00:28:48.420 --> 00:28:50.500 in Singapore. Yeah. What was that term that got 00:28:50.500 --> 00:28:52.680 very popular a few years ago? The conscious uncoupling. 00:28:53.039 --> 00:28:57.099 Oh, that was a good one. Is there more conscious 00:28:57.099 --> 00:29:00.319 uncoupling? Obviously, divorce can be very emotionally 00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:05.000 draining. What sort of challenges do you see 00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:08.720 women, people having not just during, but also 00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:12.049 afterwards as well? they tend to self -blame, 00:29:12.130 --> 00:29:15.630 they blame themselves for their so -called failure. 00:29:15.869 --> 00:29:18.809 And yes, Amanda said. So is it more self -blaming 00:29:18.809 --> 00:29:23.150 rather than it was his fault? I'm just kind of... 00:29:23.150 --> 00:29:26.509 Sometimes it's a bit of a balance, right? But 00:29:26.509 --> 00:29:29.930 a lot of times it's the women that come to me, 00:29:29.930 --> 00:29:32.210 they blame themselves, but also realise that, 00:29:32.410 --> 00:29:34.569 yeah, it's not their fault. But semantically, 00:29:35.109 --> 00:29:38.049 their body knows there's something off, right? 00:29:38.509 --> 00:29:42.579 And... talking about the trauma bonds that they've 00:29:42.579 --> 00:29:44.779 had with this person because they've invested 00:29:44.779 --> 00:29:48.160 so much time with this person. And if we're talking 00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:51.019 about your nervous system and your chemicals 00:29:51.019 --> 00:29:55.099 in your brain, you're actually addicted to that 00:29:55.099 --> 00:29:59.079 person. I guess even if that person is narcissistically 00:29:59.079 --> 00:30:03.140 abusive or emotionally abusive as well. Right. 00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:08.119 And so what I've seen is that. they have this 00:30:08.119 --> 00:30:12.680 fear, guilt or shame that is going through their 00:30:12.680 --> 00:30:16.960 minds and their emotions of I'm not enough or 00:30:16.960 --> 00:30:21.480 they fear that they don't have enough time to, 00:30:21.819 --> 00:30:25.059 especially for women in their 40s, to rebuild 00:30:25.059 --> 00:30:28.299 their life as well. So through the process, I 00:30:28.299 --> 00:30:32.920 help them to reconnect to themselves, rebuild 00:30:32.920 --> 00:30:36.650 their sense of self. and then move forward from 00:30:36.650 --> 00:30:40.210 building their future. After divorce, is there 00:30:40.210 --> 00:30:42.450 anything legally that needs to be done or does 00:30:42.450 --> 00:30:45.680 it kind of legally everything stops once? the 00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:48.200 divorces taking place. Right. So once there's 00:30:48.200 --> 00:30:50.460 a court order in place, you know, that should 00:30:50.460 --> 00:30:54.039 be fairly final. But what we see is, and potentially 00:30:54.039 --> 00:30:55.720 linked to what Sophie was just talking about, 00:30:55.839 --> 00:30:58.160 is that really the co -parenting relationship 00:30:58.160 --> 00:31:01.519 carries on. So, you know, this person, which, 00:31:01.519 --> 00:31:04.819 you know, maybe there was a deeply hurtful breakdown, 00:31:05.380 --> 00:31:07.519 but you still have to communicate with this person 00:31:07.519 --> 00:31:11.269 all the time. about the children, about maintenance, 00:31:11.529 --> 00:31:13.990 right? So these are the two areas where they 00:31:13.990 --> 00:31:16.150 could be continuing disputes over the children 00:31:16.150 --> 00:31:19.589 and over maintenance. Lack of payment, blocking 00:31:19.589 --> 00:31:22.069 of access, just difficult access arrangements. 00:31:22.369 --> 00:31:26.579 Abuse can still continue even if... parties are 00:31:26.579 --> 00:31:29.059 apart and you know could have two separate homes 00:31:29.059 --> 00:31:31.119 but there's all sorts of things that could still 00:31:31.119 --> 00:31:33.299 happen sometimes abuse could happen also through 00:31:33.299 --> 00:31:38.140 children financially let's say someone moved 00:31:38.140 --> 00:31:40.940 to Singapore they were here on a dependent parcel 00:31:40.940 --> 00:31:42.799 didn't really work during their time here so 00:31:42.799 --> 00:31:46.180 didn't actually build up any of their own savings 00:31:46.180 --> 00:31:48.740 if they were married to say a narcissistic person 00:31:48.740 --> 00:31:52.180 who did have control of everything what can what 00:31:52.180 --> 00:31:56.869 can the the party who was the dependent do in 00:31:56.869 --> 00:31:59.349 order to get some financial control? Is there 00:31:59.349 --> 00:32:02.029 any sort of rights in place for them? So through 00:32:02.029 --> 00:32:04.250 the court process there would be, you know, what 00:32:04.250 --> 00:32:07.410 we call discovery, which is basically the disclosure 00:32:07.410 --> 00:32:11.250 of things like bank statements and expense lists 00:32:11.250 --> 00:32:13.589 and, you know, receipts and all of those things. 00:32:14.089 --> 00:32:16.730 I think the issue a lot of times with such relationships 00:32:16.730 --> 00:32:18.890 is that the woman, you're talking about a female 00:32:18.890 --> 00:32:21.730 dependent, just has no idea what's happening. 00:32:21.849 --> 00:32:25.130 for years and only thing they might have in terms 00:32:25.130 --> 00:32:28.549 of knowledge is one joint account and a fixed 00:32:28.549 --> 00:32:32.690 sum coming in every month and potentially a supplementary 00:32:32.690 --> 00:32:36.569 card and so that lack of visibility in a sense 00:32:36.569 --> 00:32:39.430 is a little bit problematic going into proceedings 00:32:39.430 --> 00:32:42.410 not having any information but there's certainly 00:32:42.410 --> 00:32:45.049 ways that we could support a client to say let's 00:32:45.049 --> 00:32:48.240 let this is what we could do to find out Now, 00:32:48.339 --> 00:32:50.160 where a person comes to me and say, you know, 00:32:50.259 --> 00:32:53.660 I've been together for 10 years or eight years 00:32:53.660 --> 00:32:57.500 or whatever, but I haven't contributed financially 00:32:57.500 --> 00:33:01.269 towards the assets. then potentially they are 00:33:01.269 --> 00:33:04.089 weaker compared to if they were to divorce in 00:33:04.089 --> 00:33:05.950 a different country, like their home country, 00:33:06.089 --> 00:33:08.250 if they had the ability to follow else. I didn't 00:33:08.250 --> 00:33:10.089 realize that. I thought it would be. That's why 00:33:10.089 --> 00:33:12.049 we that's why we did it here. So my ex husband 00:33:12.049 --> 00:33:13.849 and I were both American. I'm still American. 00:33:13.869 --> 00:33:16.549 I think he is, too. And yeah, we divorced in 00:33:16.549 --> 00:33:19.069 California because it was very, very easy. Right. 00:33:19.230 --> 00:33:21.349 So California, for example, is a 50 50 state. 00:33:21.450 --> 00:33:24.809 Very clear. Very clear. England is actually generally 00:33:24.809 --> 00:33:28.059 50 50, although the exceptions as well. But Singapore 00:33:28.059 --> 00:33:31.400 isn't automatically 50 -50. Okay, can we not 00:33:31.400 --> 00:33:32.839 discuss this because I don't want my husband 00:33:32.839 --> 00:33:38.609 David. So it's not 50, but that's interesting. 00:33:38.630 --> 00:33:41.630 It's not automatically 50. It could be for longer 00:33:41.630 --> 00:33:44.049 marriages or where both parties have contributed 00:33:44.049 --> 00:33:47.930 a little bit financially. Yeah, I had no idea. 00:33:47.950 --> 00:33:50.490 Wow, that's interesting. So then it is, so for 00:33:50.490 --> 00:33:53.170 expats, it may be beneficial then to file for 00:33:53.170 --> 00:33:55.569 divorce in your home country. If possible. So 00:33:55.569 --> 00:33:57.569 what we would do is, you know, if an expat client 00:33:57.569 --> 00:33:59.809 came to see me, the first thing I would do is 00:33:59.809 --> 00:34:01.950 to check off, well, which jurisdiction can she 00:34:01.950 --> 00:34:04.859 file in? Interesting. Right. the jurisdictions, 00:34:05.279 --> 00:34:07.859 and then we set up a kind of a group meeting 00:34:07.859 --> 00:34:08.920 with all the lawyers and all the jurisdictions, 00:34:08.980 --> 00:34:10.679 and then we say, this is the jurisdiction, we're 00:34:10.679 --> 00:34:12.659 doing it. Obviously, I'm just using this as an 00:34:12.659 --> 00:34:15.199 example. The husband wants to file in Singapore 00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:18.219 because he's been the main earner, it's his finances, 00:34:18.840 --> 00:34:21.360 and she wants to file elsewhere. How do you resolve 00:34:21.360 --> 00:34:23.639 that issue? Yeah, that happens all the time. 00:34:23.719 --> 00:34:24.960 Yeah, I can imagine. It happens all the time. 00:34:25.260 --> 00:34:27.239 So usually, you know, it looks like it's a bit 00:34:27.239 --> 00:34:29.579 of a race, right? Which court is gonna proceed 00:34:29.579 --> 00:34:33.739 first? And so the husband has filed in Singapore. 00:34:34.940 --> 00:34:36.960 Then usually what the wife would do is she would 00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:38.760 engage lawyers to try and stop the Singapore 00:34:38.760 --> 00:34:41.539 court proceedings and he would try and stop the 00:34:41.539 --> 00:34:43.840 foreign court proceedings This happened to a 00:34:43.840 --> 00:34:45.219 girlfriend of mine. If you're listening, I know 00:34:45.219 --> 00:34:48.599 you know, yeah Yeah, he filed in Hong Kong because 00:34:48.599 --> 00:34:50.900 they briefly shared permanent residency there, 00:34:50.900 --> 00:34:53.239 but they were absolutely living in Singapore 00:34:53.239 --> 00:34:54.519 So it was one of the things where they had this 00:34:54.519 --> 00:34:57.119 like brief history of Hong Kong But then but 00:34:57.119 --> 00:34:58.800 the Singapore court would have been more favorable 00:34:58.800 --> 00:35:01.000 to her He went hard and fast exactly what you're 00:35:01.000 --> 00:35:02.380 saying to try and get the proceedings sped up 00:35:02.380 --> 00:35:04.480 in Hong Kong because tech technically there were 00:35:04.480 --> 00:35:06.539 PRs there. So yeah, there's definitely shady 00:35:06.539 --> 00:35:08.780 business that can be done. And luckily they had 00:35:08.780 --> 00:35:10.619 no kids because this would have come to a head, 00:35:10.639 --> 00:35:14.199 but yeah, it's the race against the courts exactly 00:35:14.199 --> 00:35:16.820 what you said. Is there anything that you think 00:35:16.820 --> 00:35:20.599 is pertinent for anyone considering divorce to 00:35:20.599 --> 00:35:24.440 know or think about that I haven't asked you 00:35:24.440 --> 00:35:26.579 guys? Is there anything that you think - Divorce 00:35:26.579 --> 00:35:30.099 hacks? Yeah, divorce hacks. And so actually when 00:35:30.099 --> 00:35:32.340 a client first sees me and I see that emotionally 00:35:32.340 --> 00:35:35.929 quite distraught, not the most stable or in a 00:35:35.929 --> 00:35:37.670 great place, yet actually the first thing to 00:35:37.670 --> 00:35:39.409 do would be to get emotional support for yourself. 00:35:40.050 --> 00:35:41.530 Because there's so much research in the brain 00:35:41.530 --> 00:35:44.730 and how really if your prefrontal cortex is overwhelmed, 00:35:45.010 --> 00:35:47.349 you cannot think logically, you cannot make good 00:35:47.349 --> 00:35:51.349 decisions for yourself or your children. So emotionally 00:35:51.349 --> 00:35:53.489 you need to look after yourself, then kind of 00:35:53.489 --> 00:35:56.469 take second step. So I always think more information, 00:35:56.690 --> 00:35:59.869 more education is always good. right, then you 00:35:59.869 --> 00:36:01.750 can take those steps like, okay, I need to start 00:36:01.750 --> 00:36:03.550 collecting my financial statements, I need to 00:36:03.550 --> 00:36:06.730 start listing out my expenses, etc. It's really 00:36:06.730 --> 00:36:09.849 important that when someone says, okay, I believe 00:36:09.849 --> 00:36:12.829 I'm a victim of abuse to say, well, in addition 00:36:12.829 --> 00:36:15.369 to seeking help for themselves, to actually write 00:36:15.369 --> 00:36:17.630 down a document what that means, because if someone 00:36:17.630 --> 00:36:19.730 came to me and said, I'm a victim of emotional 00:36:19.730 --> 00:36:21.869 abuse, like that's not going to mean anything 00:36:21.869 --> 00:36:24.329 for me to be able to provide them the advice, 00:36:24.349 --> 00:36:28.460 right? So do you need to say on this day, he 00:36:28.460 --> 00:36:31.340 like threw something at a wall, or at this day 00:36:31.340 --> 00:36:33.940 he yelled at me and called me names, and at this 00:36:33.940 --> 00:36:36.480 day, et cetera, et cetera. So that needs to be 00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:38.980 documented very, very well. And where does objective 00:36:38.980 --> 00:36:41.920 evidence to have that recorded? I was gonna ask, 00:36:41.960 --> 00:36:44.860 so there needs to be proof or? Ideally. Yes, 00:36:45.260 --> 00:36:48.760 ideally proof, not witnesses. You know, our definition 00:36:48.760 --> 00:36:51.519 of abuse is very, very wide that it now can, 00:36:51.519 --> 00:36:54.750 you know, includes. sexual, physical, and also 00:36:54.750 --> 00:36:57.449 psychological and emotional abuse. And it could 00:36:57.449 --> 00:36:59.929 be one instance, it could be a course of conduct. 00:37:00.090 --> 00:37:02.550 And there are many protective measures now in 00:37:02.550 --> 00:37:05.550 place in Singapore that could protect a victim 00:37:05.550 --> 00:37:09.329 or a survivor from abuse, such as like you could 00:37:09.329 --> 00:37:11.610 try and get an order to just say, stay away from 00:37:11.610 --> 00:37:14.889 me, you know, or no contact, no communication 00:37:14.889 --> 00:37:18.590 order. And really, abuse is something that we 00:37:18.590 --> 00:37:22.579 see affecting all sorts of women. and men, right? 00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:24.980 It's not just, you know, a lot of times people 00:37:24.980 --> 00:37:28.650 think it must only affect The stay at home mother 00:37:28.650 --> 00:37:31.630 who has very little financial control. And yes, 00:37:31.809 --> 00:37:34.429 that's that's one part of it. But also it really 00:37:34.429 --> 00:37:36.750 does affect all sorts of women and men. You'd 00:37:36.750 --> 00:37:39.150 be quite surprised actually what kind of women 00:37:39.150 --> 00:37:42.150 come through the door and look seeking for support 00:37:42.150 --> 00:37:46.329 because they could be high flyers. And you know, 00:37:46.590 --> 00:37:49.510 they they are strong, they're independent, they 00:37:49.510 --> 00:37:52.889 have it all but behind doors. You don't know 00:37:52.889 --> 00:37:56.289 what's going on. Not to judge yourself when you're 00:37:56.289 --> 00:37:58.789 going through this process as well. Be gentle 00:37:58.789 --> 00:38:01.110 with yourself if you are going through this. 00:38:02.329 --> 00:38:06.769 It's important to seek help and support the trauma 00:38:06.769 --> 00:38:10.530 -informed perspective of abuse. For me, I don't 00:38:10.530 --> 00:38:14.000 diagnose people. just to highlight and make sure 00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:18.199 there's a disclaimer in it. If you think that 00:38:18.199 --> 00:38:20.719 you need a diagnosis, et cetera, then you go 00:38:20.719 --> 00:38:23.920 and see a psychologist, et cetera. Through a 00:38:23.920 --> 00:38:28.460 trauma -informed lens, what I do is, you know, 00:38:28.639 --> 00:38:32.840 identify certain behaviors, but just work with 00:38:32.840 --> 00:38:35.400 what's in front of me at that point of time, 00:38:35.579 --> 00:38:39.699 right? So just wanted to be very clear on that. 00:38:40.570 --> 00:38:44.190 you know, when you look at certain behaviors 00:38:44.190 --> 00:38:49.630 and diagnosis as well, it's hard to tell sometimes. 00:38:50.030 --> 00:38:54.429 And so it's really based on how you feel. And 00:38:54.429 --> 00:38:57.869 I want to let the women know on this podcast, 00:38:58.050 --> 00:39:00.960 even the men, right, that are listening. in the 00:39:00.960 --> 00:39:04.659 DSM it says, you need to have five out of eight 00:39:04.659 --> 00:39:09.840 criteria. No, to me in a trauma -informed lenses, 00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:13.219 you will experience this and let's work on it 00:39:13.219 --> 00:39:16.000 and get emotional support for that. We are coming 00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:17.579 to the end of the podcast now, but I don't want 00:39:17.579 --> 00:39:24.619 to end on a downer. So I do want to ask, What 00:39:24.619 --> 00:39:28.760 is your 40s formula for thriving after a divorce? 00:39:28.820 --> 00:39:31.780 Now, if you were to give some advice to women, 00:39:32.260 --> 00:39:35.079 how they can look at this in a positive light, 00:39:35.260 --> 00:39:38.380 what could you say? My 40s formula is pretty 00:39:38.380 --> 00:39:42.320 straightforward. So it's reclaim. So rediscover 00:39:42.320 --> 00:39:46.400 who you are, which is the process of reconnecting 00:39:46.400 --> 00:39:49.559 to your sense of self through the healing journey. 00:39:49.940 --> 00:39:54.079 Bring some compassionate energy. within your 00:39:54.079 --> 00:39:58.119 space, right? So rather than judging yourself, 00:39:59.059 --> 00:40:01.500 just acknowledge where you are at that point 00:40:01.500 --> 00:40:04.380 of time and be gentle with yourself. Second step 00:40:04.380 --> 00:40:08.019 would be to rebuild yourself financially, emotionally, 00:40:08.639 --> 00:40:11.360 personally, just building that foundation of 00:40:11.360 --> 00:40:14.960 your house again. And third of all is to redefine 00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:18.760 what is love, success and happiness. on your 00:40:18.760 --> 00:40:23.659 terms, not on anyone else's terms, not on society 00:40:23.659 --> 00:40:26.380 terms, not your mom, your dad or your family, 00:40:26.820 --> 00:40:31.159 just you. That is the formula, 40s formula for 00:40:31.159 --> 00:40:35.119 me, for my clients and the people listening to 00:40:35.119 --> 00:40:38.440 this to thrive in their life. That's lovely. 00:40:38.699 --> 00:40:42.039 Love that. I actually think, you know, aside 00:40:42.039 --> 00:40:45.780 from all the legal legalities, you know, as to 00:40:45.780 --> 00:40:49.360 what can and cannot be done, really operating 00:40:49.360 --> 00:40:51.960 within that framework to say, like, this is my 00:40:51.960 --> 00:40:55.119 opportunity to kind of make my own identity. 00:40:55.639 --> 00:40:58.599 That's about me. Right. And what does that look 00:40:58.599 --> 00:41:02.449 like? And am I going to reskill and. decide hey 00:41:02.449 --> 00:41:05.289 actually I want to reskill and get a new job 00:41:05.289 --> 00:41:07.289 and what is that like because I can do whatever 00:41:07.289 --> 00:41:10.269 I want within these boundaries and to be creative 00:41:10.269 --> 00:41:12.769 and I see sometimes a lot of clients who come 00:41:12.769 --> 00:41:15.309 back and say you know what I've just been my 00:41:15.309 --> 00:41:19.150 best self because I can now do whatever I want 00:41:19.150 --> 00:41:22.869 without having to report. with someone else. 00:41:22.889 --> 00:41:24.829 I love that. It gives you the opportunity to 00:41:24.829 --> 00:41:28.030 be you. Yes, authentically you, right? Yeah. 00:41:28.190 --> 00:41:31.929 Reclaim, reframe, reskill, rebuild. Reinvent. 00:41:32.210 --> 00:41:34.769 Yeah, reinvent. These are the things. The message 00:41:34.769 --> 00:41:38.409 about divorce is that it's an opportunity to 00:41:38.409 --> 00:41:41.139 reinvent yourself. That's why I wanted a drive 00:41:41.139 --> 00:41:44.219 message. It doesn't have to be the end. No, it's 00:41:44.219 --> 00:41:46.760 not the end. I mean, we're always continuously 00:41:46.760 --> 00:41:49.260 growing if you choose to. Thank you so much. 00:41:49.340 --> 00:41:51.760 It's been wonderful having you both here and 00:41:51.760 --> 00:41:54.239 sharing your insights on the legal matters and 00:41:54.239 --> 00:41:56.159 the emotional matters. So thank you, Sophie. 00:41:56.340 --> 00:41:58.599 Thank you, Shime. Thank you. It's been an honor. 00:41:59.119 --> 00:42:01.820 Thanks so much for having us. Guys, you know 00:42:01.820 --> 00:42:03.599 how much we love coffee. And if you want to show 00:42:03.599 --> 00:42:05.659 us some love, you know, you can get us one. Just 00:42:05.659 --> 00:42:10.500 visit buymeacoffee .com The 40s Formula. Cheers. 00:42:12.760 --> 00:42:15.239 Before we go, please remember to hit subscribe 00:42:15.239 --> 00:42:17.579 and take a moment to support The 40s Formula 00:42:17.579 --> 00:42:19.760 by leaving a review on your favorite podcast 00:42:19.760 --> 00:42:22.260 platform. Your reviews will help us to reach 00:42:22.260 --> 00:42:24.320 more people and allow us to continue to bring 00:42:24.320 --> 00:42:26.639 valuable content. It should only take a moment 00:42:26.639 --> 00:42:28.380 and it's a free way for you to support the show. 00:42:28.619 --> 00:42:31.019 You can also stay updated with the 40s formula 00:42:31.019 --> 00:42:34.420 by following us on Instagram at the 40s formula. 00:42:34.639 --> 00:42:37.460 All one word. We share behind the scenes insights, 00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:40.400 episode updates, and much more. So please be 00:42:40.400 --> 00:42:42.679 sure to hit that follow button. We appreciate 00:42:42.679 --> 00:42:44.539 your time and support. Thank you for being part 00:42:44.539 --> 00:42:46.400 of this community. And we'll be back next week 00:42:46.400 --> 00:42:48.519 for more empowering conversations with inspiring 00:42:48.519 --> 00:43:33.530 guests. Bye. I think they've like temporarily 00:43:33.530 --> 00:43:36.510 blocked me because I did share the link of the 00:43:36.510 --> 00:43:38.210 podcast and then it occurred to me they've got 00:43:38.210 --> 00:43:39.769 their own podcast so I don't know if they're 00:43:39.769 --> 00:43:41.409 like but their podcast is a bit different to 00:43:41.409 --> 00:43:44.269 ours. I don't know. Oh, I don't know. That shows 00:43:44.269 --> 00:43:46.110 you how much I use the Oracle scenario. But maybe 00:43:46.110 --> 00:43:48.250 because they don't want you to promote yourself. 00:43:48.750 --> 00:43:51.130 So like so if Sophie had said listen to this 00:43:51.130 --> 00:43:53.690 episode of The Voice, maybe it's a bit different. 00:43:53.789 --> 00:43:55.510 That's true. But if either of us two do it because 00:43:55.510 --> 00:43:58.250 it's ours then we're promoting, I don't know. 00:43:58.530 --> 00:44:07.360 I'll do it. There's so many women looking for 00:44:07.360 --> 00:44:12.320 support. So I thought, well, if I know someone, 00:44:12.320 --> 00:44:12.980 why not?