Why is that normal? Doesn't that look abnormal?
And then I get freaked out when you say to me
that that's not normal to me. Again, I'm in an
echo chamber of very awake friends, which I've
done purposely because of the trauma in my childhood.
I wonder if I had I didn't have the trauma in
my childhood that gifted the awareness. whether
I would be the same. So I don't want to pass
judgment because I'm maybe they've had like a
really happy go lucky life and they're lulled
into like automated behaviors. Maybe that sort
of ignorance is kind of bliss. Maybe that's what
I talk about in chapter one when the therapist
asked me, you know, what do you want to get out
of this? I was like, I just want to be one of
those basic people that water just washes off
the like criticisms like water off the duct.
I want to be that person that is triggered by
nothing because I'm just apathetic through life.
Hey, and welcome to The 40s Formula, your go
-to place for insightful discussions on navigating
the 40s and thriving in this transformative decade.
We're your hosts, Jasmine and Amanda, two women
that are passionate about exploring the challenges
and adventures that come with turning 40 and
what lies ahead. Today on The 40s Formula, we're
going to be talking about one of the five pillars
of health. that we haven't yet touched upon,
and that is social connection and its antithesis,
loneliness. Loneliness isn't just about being
alone, it's about being unseen, unheard and disconnected,
even when you're surrounded by people. Our guest
today knows this struggle firsthand and has dedicated
her time to understand human connection. She's
a global speaker, a bestselling author of Let's
Talk About Loneliness and an expert in helping
people and companies bridge the gap between feeling
connected and disconnected. And that's why we're
so excited to have Simone hang with us today
in the studio. Welcome, Simone. Hello. Thank
you for having me, ladies. Oh, it's our pleasure.
We're so excited to have you here and to talk
about loneliness, connection, disconnection.
And I think we live in a time now where Everyone
is more connected. They're connected via social
media, connected through their phones, the internet,
even with the amount of people around them. But
yet, there's still so much loneliness. Why do
you think that is? So the loneliness epidemic
that we're seeing globally, right, it's not just
isolated to any country, is through what they
call the conditions of modernity. And these are
things like social media and the digital paradox.
The way that our cities are planned now, they're
no longer like when we stopped being nomadic
as homo sapiens, we planned our cities around
a central place of worship or a piazza. Well,
we don't build our cities that way anymore. We
barely have third spaces. If you even want to
sit in certain cities like London, you have to
buy a coffee to Starbucks to even get a place
to sit to get. out of the cold. So those third
spaces have gone missing. And we can also add
to that capitalism. You know, we're seeing this
even in China, which is not even meant to be
a capitalist country right now, with overwork
of young people due to the downturn of the economy
for the first time in three decades. They're
working so much they barely have time for family.
And that's huge when you come from the Chinese
diaspora or you're Chinese. It's one of the most
filial countries in the world. Family comes first.
And the fact that the conditions of capitalism
have even incepted that culture shows you how
pervasive some of these conditions of modernity
are. So those are the summer things. I would
add polarization and distrust in institutions,
as well as some of the contributing factors to
loneliness. You talk about in your book sort
of being connected and being disconnected. Why
do you think this is happening now? Why are people
being more sort of disconnected from the world?
First, let's define what loneliness is. It's
the gap between the kind and amount of human
connection you want and the kind and amount of
human connection you're getting. You can be disconnected
when you're surrounded by people or you can be
disconnected when connected to friends online.
It's about quality of connection. And so even
within your own family, if they don't share similar
values or they're negatively polarized connections,
as I talk about in the book, you can feel very
lonely. I think the big why that's happening
right now is to do with some of the factors that
I mentioned before. Let's look. particularly
at the digital space and something that Dr. Pamela
Rutledge, I was just speaking with at Harvard
on Saturday night, she calls algorithmic isolation.
I've talked about this before in terms of human
connection and AI companions, but I never used
that term. Algorithmic isolation is basically
where you feel you're more alone in your hobbies,
likes, views, inclinations, because your algorithm
only shows you your own opinion looped back to
yourself, right? And then when you come into
contact with a new human being that doesn't reflect
those views, you're more rigid in your opinions
because you feel that you're in an echo chamber
that's telling you you're right. And you're also
more inclined to not bridge that gap and go through
any sort of frictional discomfort to connect
people. So I would say the biggest issue that
we're having why people are feeling more lonely
if we look at our generation, older millennials
and below, could be to do with the polarization
caused by these apps that we're on circulating
our opinion back to ourselves, therefore also
making us, I guess, a little reticent to go through
the friction. of making real life human connection,
which is a bit messy, which is a bit, you know,
there's a filtering process. You ladies found
me on Instagram. We've walked in. We're wearing
the same color palette. We're the same age. We
have the same cultural East and Western understanding.
We've talked, talked, talked before even recording.
And the algorithm gave us each other. That was
so easy. Yeah. So then why would I make an effort?
Right. Is the psychology. and not everyone is
as extroverted as me. So imagine someone's introverted,
then they have to go to a dinner. But they have
to sit next to someone who obviously doesn't
have the same algorithm as them. Why would they
bother? So of course you've got to get less connection.
In our analog childhood, which we all remember
here, we had to go to school and we had to make
friends. We had to go to Chinese Mandarin class
on the weekend and make friends with people that
definitely didn't have the same algorithm that
wasn't around them. And that flexes your human
connection muscles that makes you a powerful
social connector. And the algorithms, I guess,
made us a bit lazy. We don't have to do that
anymore. And I think everyone wants ease of life
now, don't they? It's like on demand. Yes. And
if it's not immediate, if it's not easy, if it's
not the same as what I think, then I don't really
give a shit. And I think that's what ends up
happening. And I think it's veiled in this very
theropized language now, which is all around.
Oh, I have a boundary. This is me. I'm protecting
my time. It's like that can also get too much
too. You need to and anyone who has children
who's listening, you need to also encourage your
children to be able to have difficult conversations,
to overcome friction in friendships because their
social skills, if they are socially fluent, they
will stand out in the workforce of the future
where they're going up against AI and everything's
perfect and automated. AI will make everything
human move higher up the value chain. Being a
great human connector is one way to safeguard
your children's future employment. Yes. And girl,
first of all, I don't know what your upcoming
book. title is but if a book title exists called
analog childhood lessons learned from a millennial
i don't know i feel like there's something there
yes but that makes me think okay again i love
the term analog childhood because i do think
like that is now an antiquated like that is something
we can put on a shelf now and look at as something
that no longer exists right because it doesn't
yeah it's it's not something that these kids
could ever we are the last generation the last
ones that remember it had it could even vocalize
it, right? And that's gonna get further and further
away. What you mentioned about people with kids
encouraging those kids to have experiences that
make them uncomfortable and force them to kind
of, like you said, confront a little bit of conflict,
a little bit of, you know, wariness that they
wouldn't otherwise have is a, again, for someone
with no kids, girl, that is a parenting skill.
Oh, I'm auntie to 25 kids around the world. And
I have to say, teaching your children to be uncomfortable,
comes also from making yourself uncomfortable.
So the best way to model to them not to be on
their phones all the time is obviously to have
their phones away. And that's not me critiquing
parents, it's because I have some. amazing besties
who model that to their kids, even though it's
uncomfortable for them. So if they needed to
check the phone, my girlfriend would say, I'm
sorry, sweetheart, I just need to check on my
husband. And then it's not like I just do this
without asking permission as if the person in
front of me doesn't exist. So she's modeling
to the children. This is not a given that you
can have your phone out. You must address the
human in front of you first, and the phone a
second. I think it's incredibly, and I try and
be that auntie too. You mentioned in your book
that there was a situation where you took a friend
out for dinner and he was on Tinder or one of
the dating apps. So bad. And it feels like natural
now to go out and everyone's out, but yet they're
doing their own thing. And you mentioned how,
you know, you were... It was almost like the
behavior that you did when you were in your 20s
and you found it uncomfortable, you didn't like
it. Why do you think people think that's the
norm now? What is it about people just finding
that, you know, we could be out for dinner, but
yeah, I'm going to be on my phone and you're
going to be on yours. I'm such a fan of human
beings. I know I live in a really cynical world.
Most people are just like, everyone's an idiot.
I don't feel that way at all. I would say...
Maybe it's my own in -person algorithm, but the
people I'm surrounded by with now, now that I've
moved into a place where I'm a force. And that
is part of the title of the next book. It's like,
how do you, how, you know, being a force in the
world, I'm surrounded less and less by people
who would not be aware and do something like
that. But the former version of me with superfluous
connections that were not necessarily quality
controlled, because I, because of my childhood,
I never had great boundaries. There are people
who are asleep to this stuff. And then there
are people who are awake. So I guess it's just,
I think that's also what I always laugh about
with my friends who are personal development
authors as well. It's like, are we just writing
to the already converted? Oh, that's a good question
all the time. Is this podcast just broadcasting
to the already awake people? And then, you know,
I think that's also why dating has been really
hard for me too. It's like, I'm looking for someone
with that level of awareness, which I don't think
is the majority. You know, I feel like, like
you said, you know, we see the people that are
there, but that's not a lot of the people. That's
the problem. And again, not to bring everything
back to family. Like suddenly I'm like mama,
you know, on this podcast, but like same with
families. It's like, you see families go out
to dinner. And everyone is on their phone, the
kids are on the iPad. And it's like that is family
dinner now. That is family dinner. And it's like,
you know, why is that normal? Doesn't that look
see? And then I get freaked out when you say
to me that that's not normal to me. Again, I'm
in an echo chamber of very awake friends, which
I've done purposely because of the trauma in
my childhood. I wonder if I had I didn't have
the trauma in my childhood that gifted the awareness.
whether I would be the same. So I don't want
to pass judgment because I'm maybe they've had
like a really happy go lucky life and they're
lulled into like automated behaviors. Maybe that
sort of ignorance is kind of bliss. Maybe that's
what I talk about in chapter one when the therapist
asked me, you know, what do you want to get out
of this? I was like, I just want to be one of
those basic people that water just washes off
the like criticisms like water off the duct.
I want to be that person that is triggered by
nothing because I'm just apathetic through life.
Do those people exist though? That's the thing.
Well, I later on found out that apathy is one
of the lowest things on the vibrational scale
of emotion. So it's actually not good to be apathetic.
I don't think it should be the norm. I think
there's enough information out there that it
should be. But again, our algorithms are not
their algorithms. Can we go back to your childhood
and the traumas you faced? It was part of what
led you to feel lonely and disconnected. Can
you share with us? how that was and what that
looked like for you? I want to begin by saying
that trauma is absolutely a gift when you've
processed this trauma. So I can speak about it
now in a very matter of fact way. But when I
was writing the book, it was extremely emotional
for me. And now I'm almost a bit desensitized.
So anyone who is watching that is like, I'm like
this because my mother was like that, or my dad
was like that, or this is it. when you move from
that victimhood to it being a victory, then you
become a force in the world to do better things.
I can tell you, your book has made me cry multiple
times. I was reading it and it just touched me
in certain parts where I was just like, oh my
God. So, you know, the fact that you have moved
away from connecting the emotions means that
you've definitely dealt with what was going on
there. And also a book launch will do that to
you because you get asked over and over again.
I mean, it's still difficult. I was just in Australia
and my mom, she's got one good hand left and
she hit me on the face. And it was kind of, she
was trying to be funny in front of my cousin
and that, it still breaks my heart because I
absolutely hate hanging around the nursing home
and hanging out in Perth. It's really not me
at all as a place. And you make those sacrifices
and then you get that. It's still hard. But I
have boundaries now. So I'm like, OK, mama, I'm
going to go back to auntie's house. I'll see
you tomorrow. I have boundaries now, whereas
me before, no boundaries. I think the condition
of many Asian daughters is to have no boundaries.
You are taught that you must like flagellate
yourself at the table of... being a sacrificial
Asian daughter. And I think a lot of my awakening
is unwiring that, re -parenting myself. I lost
my dad when I was 19 years old and he was like
my best friend. And he was the kind of balancing
force in my, in the family. Very, very similar
to me, that very affectionate, very soft, very
warm. And my mom and my sister are more alike.
And my mom was a force, like definitely brilliant,
definitely gifted. but probably a little bit
ahead of her time. As such, had kids, but I think
she was actually a bit more like me. Like, I
think if she could have lived the life that I
live now. and fly all over the world and teach
people. So she was a teacher at RGS, which is
a very prestigious girl school here in Singapore.
I kind of think she would have, but she was born
in another era. So then she moves to the suburbs
of Perth and I think there's this frustration
and also she'd grown up with help in Singapore.
So she's now having to manage these children
that she's had really late in her life. So she's
37 when she has me and 35 when she has my sister,
which is ancient for that era. I was gonna say,
I was like, you know, my first one was when I
was 38, but I hear you, but I hear you for that
era. And her and my dad got married at 21 and
24 and tried for 13 years. And so I think all
of these factors along with her very rare condition
that she has led her to be, she was a very difficult
mother. I'm not gonna frame it in any other way.
She was difficult. And it's interesting after
I wrote that book, like not one relative has
come out and said, that it was inaccurate, you
know? And I actually think I protected her and
my dad a lot. There are a lot of things that
are not in there because they don't work with
the thesis of loneliness. So the book is not
a memoir, it's about loneliness. But within this
family system, those unpredictable moods, obviously,
of one of your primary caregivers. impacted me
by I developed a very anxious attachment style
that shows up for me mostly in dating sometimes
with friendships, but not so much, not in work,
luckily. And along with that, I felt a lot of
loneliness within my own family system. And I
still feel that now when I go back and visit
that I am wired so differently and was even then.
to the rest of my family. I don't have this kind
of Singapore risk aversion that the rest of the
community that I grew up in has. I literally
am very anti -authority. At the radio that I
used to work at, they thought I was like the
rebel. I am compared to like America. Or the
UK. I am not a rebel. I'm like a rule follower.
But in the context of like a local organization,
that is just the best mindset to have as an entrepreneur.
So again, all the things that are crushing and
make you feel different and are wounding, honey,
you're just not in the right place. Like, I would
never be able to do what I do now without, like,
I travel all over the world as a woman alone.
If I was risk averse or a rule follower, God
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It all worked out as it was, but I felt crippling.
Look, I still feel quite lonely when I go back
to Australia and I am to Perth particularly,
and I tend to not meet up with many people. So
I go visit mum and my cousin and best friend
and I see my godkids. But I try not to have coffees
and I try because it sometimes again, the algorithm
thing that we talked about, my mindset now is
so expansive and my palette for experience and
what I consider exciting. is very broad. And
that's not for everyone. And it isn't necessarily
that's not necessarily a place where that comes
up a lot. And so sometimes when I have that coffee,
I get that cognitive dissonance that actually
makes me feel I'm alone more, which is uncomfortable.
So I try not to do too many family dinners. I
try not to do that because it is just triggering
for me of the kind of loneliness I don't want
to be reminded of. And I think that's just human.
during your journey, was there like a pivotal
moment which really made you realize that I need
to seek help and and try to sort out, you know,
what's going on in my mind? Yeah. So I always
talk about after dad died at 19, it was terrible.
But all the aunties were like, you know, get
over it. Stop crying. He's dead already. What
do you want to do? You know, be strong for your
mom. Like all of this kind of. And I realize
a lot of relatives or older generation, but I'll
talk about my Singaporean family, find grief
uncomfortable and the display of grief uncomfortable.
So they're not saying that to be mean to you,
they're saying to you because they're like, please
stop showing me these intense emotions. It is
uncomfortable for me. But instead of saying,
hey, I might not be the right person to talk
to this, but I'll find you someone or let's their
way is like, stop, stop, stop, stop showing it
to me. So I understand it now, but at the time
I I was kind of brainwashed in this filial piety
to listen to anyone of authority, even if they
knew nothing about mental health, to follow exactly
what they said. This idea of obedience was a
really big thing in my house about being obedient.
My mum was really fearful of having like wild
Australian children, which she ended up getting
one anyway. If you're a mum listening, don't
be too strict because it could just come out
sideways. So I listened to them. And so I pushed
all that grief inside me and then I went off
to work around the world. And the grief just
came out sideways. I talk about in the book,
I was so angry, like the rage of being silenced,
the rage of having my father taken away from
me, the rage of some of the things that went
on in that house, but also the wider family.
Like it was how people spoke to each other, how
people gossiped about each other, how people
put each other down. Like I knew I had never
experienced differently but when I went to live
in Switzerland I realized what I had seen in
American shows existed because I lived with three
different families and no one talks about each
other or puts each other down or shouts and I
was like wow that's how I want to live the rest
of my life. And we're there girls! We're here!
I'm like literally sitting here in shock that
like America had a great example. Great job America!
Golden Girls, Family Madison, Elf! It was perfect!
First of all, back in the golden era of American
television which is unmatched and will never
come again. But anyway, it's great to hear that
we brought something good to the world. Exactly.
And then I was in Dubai and then mum had the
big stroke. And I had decided like, okay, you
know, you have to go deal with this. My mum had
kind of told us in the time we lived off anything
happens to mummy was always if anything happens
to mummy, you come back if anything happens to
bump. So it was it was programmed. It's sometimes
shocking to me that I never even had an independent
thought of like You're living the life of your
dreams. Is this a reasonable request that you
would give up your happiness and life for the
generation that comes after you that would die
before you? But in the Asian family system, you
don't question that. That's not how that's done.
And so I left Dubai and then the like I talk
about in the book, the pot boiled over. So I
realized that I was not equipped. for going back
to the ground zero of my childhood trauma that
I'd escaped from, that I was running away from.
And all of that scar tissue from dad's loss,
that unresolved rage, it just blew up. And that
is the part where I'd come back to Singapore
to work after taking care of my mum, cleaned
up the hoarding in my mum's house. And then I'd
come back to work at this radio station here
in Singapore. And it was very similar to my family
system environment. So... DJs were pitted against
each other in the same way my sister and I pitted
against each other. Like my therapist even said
like you it's like your anxious attachment style
will just walk yourself. Your trauma bond will
walk yourself right back into a place where you
can relive that in your nervous system. And so
it was all the things. It was the the put downs,
the gossiping, the meeting between the lines.
So never that clear communication, always the
bitching behind the back. So all of these things
were I couldn't relive it anymore. It was untenable.
And I called my cousin and my best friend one
night and she was pregnant with my goddaughter.
And I bawled down the phone to her and I just
could not stop crying. And then at the end of
it, I asked for advice. And I would do that routinely
when I couldn't regulate my own emotions, I would
call trusted friends and they would help me to
regulate, but they weren't professionals. And
Paula said to me, she goes, Moni, I love you,
but maybe it's time. because I don't have all
the answers to fully give to you. And I later
on went back to her and told her, this was the
best. I mean, it took 10 years, but I said to
her, this is like the best advice you ever gave
me and was given with such love. It wasn't in
this like go to therapy. It was with such love
and a relationship with which we have complete
trust. And she said, yeah, I'm about to become
a mom. So I'm trying to give better advice. That's
lovely. I might not have kids, but kids have
a very special place in my life. You know, they're,
I mean, they just make friendships with my girlfriends,
even more rich as we just have more girls to
hang out with. Oh, there's a couple of boys in
the mix, but most of the girls, but like they're
a hard work. The boys are hard work. There's
like a lot going on there. The girls are a bit
easier. You know, you take them to Jin Tai Fung
and give them a coloring book and they're just
good. So that was the big story. And I hope,
Everyone has a person, and I know that's not
true because of the loneliness research I do,
but I hope everyone has a person that they trust
completely and they love unconditionally who
can give them that advice and it land well for
them. So how did you go from feeling disconnected
in your personal life to making connection your
life's work? Three things happened. Number one,
I had been seeing that old media was becoming
less and less relevant. That was really obvious
to me. This was 2016. It was getting obvious
to me, right? And so a lot of the reasons you
go into the media is there are a lot of perks.
It's fun. But there had been so much darkness
that happened. I just... The fun didn't mean
anything to me anymore. I wanted more. I knew
I needed more. And then at the same time, mum,
because the cognitive disease was losing her
ability to remember her own memories. And the
last big indicator was I went on air one night
and I gave away tickets to a superhero movie
and I asked people to voice note into the station.
If you could have any superpower in the world,
what would it be and why? And This young girl,
her name was Mei Xuan, she voice noted in, I
know it's not a special ability or anything,
but I would really love to be able to connect
with people one -on -one. It seems like everyone's
so cold these days. That was the alarm. Wow.
Because she was younger than me by about 10 years,
I could tell by her voice. And I was like, there's
something here. And so I started researching.
I found a mentor who is a global keynote speaker.
and I worked under him. He actually gave me the
human connection topic because he thought I was
a great connector. I think I'm a 100 times better
connector now than what I was then. There was
just so much stuff going on. To be a great connector,
you really have to be others driven. And when
you've got a lot going on with you, it's really
difficult to be able to have that cup flowing
over for other people. And certainly I'm at that
place now, but at that time I wasn't. And I just
started researching and then the research started
to heal me because there are a lot of studies
that were like, I'll give you a perfect example.
There's a study by Dr. James Cohn at the Virginia
University that talks about how high quality
touch of a person that is a trusted connection
has the ability to lower someone's stress response
versus being held by a random caregiver or somebody
where it's not a high quality relationship. And
so there I was flying every 90 days. all of my
annual leave at this radio station to lie on
the floor of that nursing home next to my mom
was feeling like, oh my gosh, is this worth it?
Does she even realize I'm here? Does she appreciate
this? And then to go, yes, she does, because
that's your hand lowering her stress response,
extending her lifespan. The hand of her carer
does not give her the same effect. So you see
how the research helped. Yes, the dopamine, it
all helped. me. And so I think for a lot of people
come to me and they want to be global keynote
speakers and they think I live this lifestyle.
They don't understand you need to do the research.
Like you can't just write a keynote and make
stuff up. Like the research is important. And
those researchers then kept me company in a pandemic
because I was ready to start the business and
then the pandemic hit. And as a keynote speaker,
travel is a huge part of your job because no
conference can use you multiple years in a row.
You're not like an emcee. So if you look at the
entire world, yes, you make a great income for
the whole year. But if you only speak in one
market, you probably will not. And so there was
no flying. And so I just became really well acquainted.
I just did the study. And now I sit on the board
in Washington, D .C. for the Foundation for Social
Connection with people whose names were like
my best friends alone in my apartment during
the pandemic. And I got to meet them in person.
And a couple of them, we really get along. We've
got catch up calls and like that blows like you
were in name in a footnote. Yeah. And now you
endorse my book and we're friends. And when we're
in New York at the Benjamin Franklin Awards and
we go have ice cream together like it's The world,
the universe is mind blowing. And this is why
when I talk about that expansive mindset, why
I'm so careful when I do go home. I don't want
to be confronted by a closed mindset because
I don't want that portal to close. Like the portal
is now open. Let's not throw trash in the portal
kids. That's right. Yeah. So for someone who
thinks they might be lonely, but isn't a hundred
percent sure because you know, they're living
in a home with other family members. or they
go to work every day and sit in an office space.
What signs or symptoms can they look out for
to make them understand that actually there may
be some disconnection there? So a big one that
I personally went through my whole entertainment
career was being very quick to cut people off.
So what you'll do is... You hold people to a
higher standard than is reasonable. Your friend,
her child vomited and she's late. You'll be like,
in your mind, you'll be like, that's not a good
friend. I'll mark that against her name. So holding
people to a higher standard is reasonable. Less
than good quality sleep. Wanting to be around
people, but immediately then going, oh my God,
this is so much. I want to withdraw and go home
immediately. Oversharing. Really, really lonely
people will overshare. This is something I have
definitely noticed is a lot of times in our line
of work, right? Someone comes to us for nutrition,
fitness help, but it's not nutrition and fitness
help. They really just want a captive audience
for a completely different story. You know, that
that is deeply personal, deeply psychological
and probably not the right venue. And they really
want to be heard. This is why I stopped public
speaking coaching, because it was a lot of this.
I do believe that fighting your metaphorical
voice is linked to things that happen in your
childhood, but I'm not qualified for that. And
too many people were coming to me for that. Yeah.
So the oversharing really is like, you are just
in this state of threat that you might not see
someone again who you can talk to. So you are
dumping that. And that feels awkward for the
other person. So it repels the exact kind of
connection you want to attract. Tells the other
person's brain to be skeptical of you because
You can't hold onto your own secrets. You're
never gonna hold onto theirs. We are wired to
be a bit skeptical, of course, for survival mechanism
when we meet a new person. And I've definitely
been through that. When I first moved back to
Singapore in 2015, I remember being on a plane
to a hen's night in Bali. It's the same hen's
night that I write in the book that my cousin
on that hen's night created a group chat to bitch
about me. Some of the stuff you're just like,
and me now being so empowered. I would never
like, my boundaries now, I mean, but I had that
trauma bond. So my bond said, if someone's family,
you love them. No, no, honey, no. If you're cruel
to me or one of you, full stop, you're out, that's
it. So I was on this plane and I had met. a captive
audience, a girl and her mom next to me. And
I just was monologuing to her to the point the
lady in the front turned around was like, we're
trying to sleep and we know your whole life story.
And it just broke my heart. It's so interesting
now though, knowing the place that I'm at now,
I would never speak to someone I didn't know
like that. I would just be, we know so much more
in the last 10 years and post pandemic about
mental health, loneliness, all these things.
Well, I would just never, be like that to someone.
That could be the thing that triggers. I mean,
that could be the thing. Completely. Then that
person, you never know, you know, and I don't
want to be the darkest dark here, but that could
be the night that that person says, I mean, and
then I went on that hence I was treated, hence
it was treated terribly. Like, sometimes I think,
thank goodness, I am as strong of a person as
I am, and as hyper independent as I am. Because
if you had counted all these things, and a lot
of them you read in the book and a lot of them
aren't. How on earth am I still like, what up?
Yeah. Hello. Can we talk about hyper independence?
Yeah. Whenever I think about loneliness. Okay,
this is going to sound dark, but I'm going to
bring it back. So whenever my husband and I have
this chat, I think everyone who's partnered has
this chat at some point who's going to die first,
or, you know, speculating. And I'm always like,
you're going to die first for a million reasons.
I always tell them statistically, you know, women
who have kids after 40, we live forever. It's
like a whole thing. But I was like, so when you
die, I was like, I'm not going to be married
because I love being alone. I don't think I've
ever felt lonely. Can I be honest with you? Unmarried
women are statistically the happiest portion
of the population. Good job us. But when people
say, you know, I'm alone but not lonely. First
of all, I'm never alone. So I Because I'm never
alone, but I always say that with kids Give me
like murder on the couch. Are you kidding? Can
you imagine like hang your macrame? What is going
on? Can you imagine entering your home and not
hearing a cacophony of sounds, you know from
every single angle? But anyway, but yeah, but
so I'm like is there is it possible right if
you have this kind of natural or learned hyperindependence?
To not be lonely ever So firstly, hyper -independence
is a maladaptation to trauma. So I think that's
a little bit different. And people with like,
I'm a little bit strange because I have an anxious
attachment style, but I'm hyper -independent.
But normally people with a dismissive avoidant
type, they are more hyper -independent. They're
like, I don't need people, blah, blah, blah.
So no wonder I'm single. I must confuse. I defy
the boxes. But what I was going to say to you
is that knowing how to be in solitude, this is
a big part of my second book, is an absolute
essential life skill. Knowing how to like your
own time, be in your own space is beautiful.
And that's not wrong. And I will just reiterate,
statistically unmarried women are the happiest
in the population. Married men are the second
happiest in the population. And married women...
Probably not in our city or like Dubai with full
-time help. With children, statistically the
most unhappy section of the population. See,
I thought you previously, sorry, I misheard you.
I thought you said married women are the happiest.
But unmarried women are the happiest. Married
men, and then, yeah. And I get that in the conventional
model. Because you're pouring. Oh, I'm so hungry.
Oh my gosh, same. On recording days, I am the
hungriest. GYG? Yeah, of course. What are you
thinking? Should we try their new chicken rendang?
Yeah, that's actually not a bad idea. It's their
special SG60 launch Slow -cooked Guerrero marinated
chicken in a rich rendang sauce with coconut
lemongrass and over 10 aromatic spices Sounds
incredible and it arrives so fast. Oh Wow, this
is yum. This is so good. Oh my god, Amanda I
wish our audience could try this too. Actually,
why don't we make that happen? Yes. So here's
the deal. We're going to give away 10 free chicken
rendang, burritos or bowls. And all you need
to do is one, jump on your favorite podcast streaming
site and leave us a review. And then two, screenshot
that review and send us a DM on Instagram at
the forties formula. And that's it. It's first
come first serve. So our first 10 DMS will receive
their free food and make sure you get it in before
4th of May. So get reviewing, get DMing, and
get ready to enjoy some seriously healthy but
fast food. And make sure you check out the limited
time only Chicken Rendang at all GYG outlets,
but only until May 4th. We live in the 1%, let's
be honest. We don't live in what our friends
in Australia, America, the UK live, okay? Auntie
stays over at all the houses. So I'm there from
the morning to, so I see the energy outlay, the
cognitive load. the brain filled with what snacks
can I make for Monday for the lunchbox? You know,
no one's sitting around going, let's write our
third, fourth book. Like people are, when the
babies are young, when they're young. They're
not even like, let me have my third, fourth cup
of coffee. Right? Or like Simone, if they don't
shower, I don't get to shower. And I was like,
what do you mean? It's a shower. I got 30 products.
I just gave you girls four of my 30 products.
Like what do you, but that is the reality. And
I think there's something about being friends
with these amazing women in all these different
countries are all doing differently. definitely
makes me realize the value of the real estate
of the alone time and to use it well so you will
not see me drunk out in the club like I'm building
and making something because my person is coming
yeah and when that time comes we've not think
what you're not macrame watching murder and live
in your best life are you macrame I'm macrame
you are so cool it calms my nervous system anything
tactile helps to And the publishing process at
this end of where I'm at is quite stressful.
So the macrame helps. But back to this thing.
So you're not hyper independent, honey. You're
just someone who is well -rounded enough to know
that time on your own is good. I'd be more worried
if you're like 20 days later, you go and remarry.
Which by the way, a lot of men in those murder
shows I watch, they get divorced, boom, next
wife. Hello, Chris Watts. What? So you see -
I see that in real life though too. I don't want
to go down that path of like widowers, but like
I see it. A lot. And that's a lot of the time
there's something called the widower's effect
that a man will pass away shortly after a woman
due to the fact that she ran the social connection
calendar for the household. So without her and
even knowing how to operate that orchestra, all
of his social connection disappears. And then
therefore he, yeah, because social connection
does, loneliness spikes a stress response in
our body. that can lead to cardiovascular disease.
Most it's most common of all the illnesses, but
lots of other life -shortening conditions. So
your social connection should be factored in
like any part of your health routine. It is one
of the six pillars of lifestyle medicine, by
the way, designated by the Society of Lifestyle
Medicine. I was speaking with Dr. Robert Waldinger.
That's his whole study of the lifespan of humans.
Yes. The one thing that extends lifespan at Julian
Hotland's dad. That's my bestie from from the
foundation, she is the person who coined the
stat that loneliness is more dangerous for your
health than obesity and alcohol use disorder.
So it's not a joke. And I am my own guinea pig.
I know all of this. I went to a networking thing
on the weekend because multiple of my friends
are leaving Singapore. But now I met you two
and you're in the car. We're gonna do dinner.
And I'm that annoying person that doesn't just
say it. I only say that to people I actually
want to meet with and then I follow it up. Well,
then you're going to have to see how much food
I eat. Amanda is on an anabolic journey right
now. So like I said, I will listen and eat and
you talk. I'm an eater. I'm also an eater. I
have to watch what I eat. I don't even think
I have any non eater girlfriends. We all love
to eat. I feel like that's maybe the seventh
pillar of lifestyle. And when we eat in connection,
we digest our food differently. So they studied
people in Sardinia in one of the blue zones,
and they were eating complex carbohydrates that
in the rest of the world, things like pasta and
bread, we're told are bad for us and cause all
these issues. Well, in Sardinia, the way that
they are firstly harvesting these grains, then
cooking these grains communally as a family,
and then eating communally. instead of in front
of a laptop watching murder shows on their own,
they're eating in a calm stress rate. The body
digests the food differently because they're
in connection. Do you think that social media
is making us lonelier then? I'm obviously very
active on socials. I think if you're a very young
person and you didn't have analog childhoods
like us and you were not able to draw boundaries,
absolutely. I think every person who gets to
see this should, in the book I talk about my
social media boundaries. So I post in ghost,
I do not scroll. Everyone's like, how do you
get so much done? I was like, cause I don't scroll
and I see all you guys watching my IG stories.
So I know you scroll. I don't scroll, I post
ghost. I reply the comments under the post to
thank those people, but I probably don't have
as much views or engagement as I should because
I don't scroll. The algorithm wants me to do
that. So - And you are not a rule follower. I'm
not a real follower and I value my mental health
too much after what I've been through to let
myself go down a comparison trap or worse. What
could be worse than you have goals and dreams
of what you want to achieve? You're middle -aged
and then you get comparisonitis. scrolling what
everyone else is already doing because they've
already set it up. And then you look at your
watch and the two hours you could have been using
to do your business plan is now gone. And then
you're in an anxiety spiral of what you're not
doing. And I get a lot of DMs from women like
that, like who are frustrated that they're not
making progress. But I know because I see them
watch the IG stories, what they're doing with
their time. So boundaries and everyone should
just have their own whatever makes them happy
is what you should do with socials. Don't follow
people that make you unhappy. Clean what that
algorithm shows you. And when Dr. Pamela Rutledge
and I was speaking to the kids at Harvard on,
I mean, can you hear the statement that I just
said? That's a manifesto's dream from someone
who in 2017 was like put out to pasture in their
radio career doing night shift, demoted, hating
their life. and dreaming of that exact statement.
That is, that's unbelievable even to me. So Pamela
was saying to them, have these boundaries, social
media is not the enemy. And to actually see,
so there would be quite young Gen Z, I guess
they're 19, 20. That was news to them. That worried
me. Yeah. Because I've had, I realized they've
had it their own life, their whole life. They
don't think they're allowed to be analytical
or critical of it. The way we used to watch TV
and be like, well, the news is the news. Fox
News is the news, babe. That's what's reality.
And now, of course, we know that's not true at
all. So it was remarkable to me that we had to
even say, well, have you thought about journaling
some boundaries? but that's the truth if you've
always had it. I give talks to student athletes,
young student athletes. And one of the bullet
points I've now had to add on my slides is if
you are looking at bodies that are different
from yours and you don't like you, if you like
yours less because of the bodies that you're
looking at on social media. And again, for female
athletes, this gets very relevant, right? Because
they start to develop muscles and they, you know,
pubescent athletes, right? Their bodies change,
you know, whatever toward their sport. And I
was like, if you're looking at bodies constantly
that make you feel worse about your body, and
then that's going to affect your performance
in your sport because you don't like the body
that you're seeing on that you see in real life
versus the Internet. You have to go through and
clear that out. And again, these girls have never
heard it. These girls have never heard this before
in their lives. I was saying you don't have to
unfollow, just use the mute function. Yeah, just
like. Oh, no, they're just accepting everything
TikTok showed them. Oh, honey, no. No. And again,
for every one body that you look at that doesn't
look like yours, maybe look at one that does
look like yours. Like maybe we can balance it
out as well. Is it Morgan Marla? Yeah. The rugby
player? Yes. Oh, my God. Alona Maher. That's
it. Yes. And I probably said it wrong. I think
it's Mare. Anyway, she's amazing. When she was
like imposter syndrome, I've never had that.
I was like, that's me. Like that's me when it
comes to work. I have never, which is why it
was also really isolating when I came to Singapore
to be bullied. So I'd never really been bullied
about my abilities before. And that was very
lonely. So loneliness and low self -esteem. What
would you say has been the most surprising thing
that you've figured out or read about? experienced
in your research about self connection or connections
or loneliness? The biggest one is about and you
may have already seen this is about the five
intimate connections around you. Right. And how
huge that influence is on your performance. And
I saw this very realistically in 2018. I had
my my first big friendship break up that it was
my choice. And I realized that when I was around
these people, there was a lot of Again, replication
of my childhood home, sitting around gossiping,
talking about people. It was really unhealthy
and it was wasting my time. And then I found
out that this particular girl, and I worshiped
her, again, anxious attachment style, had been
saying stuff about me. So of course they were.
They were, you know, it's so logical to me now.
Like if you're hanging out with people that talk
about people all the time, what do you think
is happening when you're not there? And so I...
cut that friendship off. How do you cut it off?
Do you say to that person, I'm no longer your
friend, or do you just go to - I'm a terrible
non -confrontational Asian. I would not do this
now, but this is me 2019, okay. It was a long
time ago now. It was tough because I found out
from her sister that she'd been saying things
because, so obviously then if I was to disclose
that, they might have a lifelong bust up. So
I didn't say anything. It was her birthday. I
dropped off a gift for her birthday at the, like
of her condo, like the front thing. And I just
made sure I was never, it was a wedding where
we were at the same, but I just avoided and it
became very clear. Actually the pandemic happened
and made it really easy for me. But what I saw
happened to my life when I cut this person. So
if you have in your five intimate connections,
so I've had people like that before, but they
were on the periphery, but I'd never had anyone
in the inner circle. You can pull out that thorn.
It's unbelievable how my life changed. That means
energetically, if anyone's a bit, we were watching
this or listening to this. The secret hating
from her and her husband was vibrationally kind
of actually keeping me low even though I wasn't
aware of it. Wow. So I'm really much more sensitive
now when I meet women who I know are not happy
for me, or I can see them watch all the stories
and they don't like it and then they copy my
content. I'm very aware, but because I have solved
a lot of that anxious attachment style. It's
like saying, I value me to the universe, that
I don't do the puppy dog thing where I would
try and convert them. You're never gonna convert
someone who's your secret hater. Like that is
illogical. You have macrame to do. Like, let's
get back together. You have macrame and murder
show and backing up. Yeah, macrame and murder
show is to watch the dead lady. Anxious attachment
style, me running after my mother's affection
would have done that to any women who are kind
of difficult because they... resemble the primary
caregiver. So for anyone who doesn't know basic
like childhood therapy here, you know, a lot
of the way we connect with other people is influenced
by the connection we had with our primary caregiver
and whether our emotional needs were met or not
met. And the reason I mentioned that is a lot
of people pick up my book and they think it's
about loneliness. And I was probably the first
person in my group of people who talk on human
connection to write a book where I gave a piece
of myself in it to talk about how this shows
up to how we later make friends and how we maintain
friendships so I could see the toxicity I was
self -creating because I took that paradigm as
a given that that was a skeleton that I should
live by and it's not at all a skeleton you have
to live by but the work of breaking away that
infrastructure of your emotional life is so difficult.
Doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. But it is work.
It is work and I still constantly have to do
it and my love life has been my, I have a dating
coach now so all of 2025 we are attacking this.
Last year I took a break from dating and I just
read all the books on attachment style in romantic
relationships you could imagine and this year
we attack that. This is the last place for me
that it really shows up in my life and it will
and it will keep being managed forever. I feel
like that's it. That's your fourth book. So we've
got your real two books and then we've got the
analog childhood. And now we've got the result
of this date. Well, there's a book on AI companions
and human connection that I want, but that could
be the analog child. I wanted to call a book,
you know, The Last Generation, because we are
the last generation. And then the subtitle will
have, you know, and my friends are like, oh,
you should write a book on, you know, the dating
stuff. And I'm like, I don't feel people want
that message until you've. found the person.
Cause then they will though. So that's why I'm
confident where you're so bad ass where you learn
everything. And then you're like, Oh my God,
I don't need someone. And then you're like, I
still, I don't need someone now. Um, I think
that's half the problem. I don't need the coaches
listening, but if you get to the point where,
like I would be lying. I said, I still don't
have moments where I want that, but I do, they
get less every year. I do think It is like I
watched Jane Fonda and I know for sure that she's
definitely, that woman is that point where she's
like, I really like, I don't miss that. I'm already
at the point, sadly, and I think this comes across
very strongly where I no longer crave someone
to travel with and I no longer crave someone
to be at home in the evenings with. And that
was a big thing before I turned 40 that I would
have that craving. Now when I travel, oh my gosh,
I'm so tired and I'm Love a good hotel room with
a bath. I'm so happy. No one is there in that
space, but I'm like Some of my married girlfriends
like one of the nurses at my face doctor she's
like that's the tree And then you have other
people who are like, oh, no, it's not like that
when you meet the right person. And I was like,
oh, you're so smug right now. I was like, I just
met you. That's too smug. But I don't say that.
I just feel that inside. But I think that it
is very possible. When I watch Jane Fonder, I
know she's at that point because I'm probably
only five or six years away from where you're
completely cool. You want what you want when
you want it. That's part of the journey. I'm
gonna watch this podcast back in two years and
laugh at how wrong I was about everything I said.
So we are coming to the end of the show now,
but we do have one last question that we wanna
ask you. And that's what's your forties formula,
especially with being connected not only with
yourself, but with others around you. You know
you have to put the face mask on you first. And
I always used to throw that out the window because
I'm like, I only have to shop for my disabled
mother. But I really, besides her and the dog,
I'm not. And I was so wrong. I was so wrong.
So I would give all of my energy power away to
my career and my work. And no, you still have
to put even if you're single, looking after your
health, looking after your mind, your personal
development, all of that into your 40s becomes
paramount, absolutely paramount. And then the
rest of it secondary, easier said than done.
Base mask on first. Thank you so much Simone
it has been an absolute pleasure having you here.
Thanks for making time for us. Let's be real
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with inspiring guests. Bye. Still going through
it. By the way, how badass is the 40s? It's amazing.
Why did no one tell me? Oh my gosh. I was like,
you actually do. This is the counterpoint. It's
amazing. We're really blessed here. We are. We
are so lucky.