They can do a 90 minute Ashtanga practice six days a week at the same time.
Exactly right.
That's not good for us.
No, it's not good for us.
Right.
Two weeks in a month I'll do my weights and you know, quite a dynamic yoga practice.
And the other two weeks, just pretty much listening to my body, no set schedule.
But when I am exhausted, when you know, I'm menstruating or pre-menstrual, I just give
into it.
I'm like, I'll lie in my yoga mat with a big bolster and hug it, you know.
Oh, I love that.
That's the best kind of yoga.
Restoring it is where I'm at.
Where can I go and do that yoga?
I just do it in my balcony.
I'm just like, oh.
Hello and welcome to the 40s Formula, your go to place for insightful discussions on
navigating your 40s and thriving in this transformative decade.
Here are your hosts, Amanda and Jasmine, two women that are passionate about exploring
the challenges and adventures that come with turning 40 and what lies ahead.
Cheryl MacDonald is the founder of Yoga Bellies, as well as a psychotherapist, yoga master,
author, and serial entrepreneur.
With 25 years of experience in yoga, Cheryl has guided over 100,000 women in the U.S.
and the U.K., helping them find balance, embrace pregnancy, bond with their babies, and navigate
menopause symptoms with grace.
Her unique approach, the Yoga Belly Satana, is deeply rooted in body positivity, self-love,
and helping women embrace their unique selves.
In addition to sharing the gift of yoga, Cheryl empowers women to build sustainable careers
as yoga teachers and build their own thriving practices.
She was named the LuxLife Most Inspirational Women's Yoga Teacher in 2021 and won the
Great British Entrepreneur Award in 2019.
Her work has been featured on ITVs This Morning, the BBC Dragon's Den, and even among celebrities
like Kimberly Walsh and Fern Cotton.
Well, I'll tell you what, you could not have picked a more personally interesting guest
for me today.
Cheryl MacDonald is the founder of Yoga Bellies, which is much more than yoga practice.
We'll get into that in a second.
And she's also the author of this incredible book called Yoga Pause, What Women Need to
Know After 40 and Why Yoga is the Answer.
Thank you so much for coming, Cheryl.
Thank you for having me.
We are so excited and I have to just dive right into it.
I need to know why yoga is the answer.
What is unique about this age and approaching it with yoga?
Okay, so first of all, I have to define yoga because as we were talking earlier, you know,
yoga is very different and different classes to different people, different situations.
So to me, when I'm talking about yoga and whether that's yoga bellies or yoga pause,
I'm talking about yoga as a lifestyle.
So I'm not just talking about the physical exercise on the mat, which as you know, can
be very dynamic, very relaxing, can be, you know, night and day.
So to me, yoga is your whole mindset, how you approach life.
It's about mindfulness.
It's about enjoying the here and now, not dwelling in the past, not worrying about the
future and just really experiencing life right now.
And that obviously translates to what's going on in your yoga mat as well, right?
Because you need to be fully present there.
So for me, that's what yoga is.
So when I'm talking about yoga pause, and I'm talking about why women need it after
40, we need to be present right now.
We can't be worrying about, oh, we're getting older or I used to be young or I don't look
the way I did when I was 25.
It's about living right now, enjoying all of it, enjoying the wisdom, the experience,
everything you've got and like taking that forward and planning for the future because
you still have a future.
You've got like another 40, 50 years, right?
Yeah, hopefully.
And I think a lot of women kind of give up at this point.
You know, they're just like, I'm getting old.
You know, I'm not who I was in my 20s.
Who wants to be who they were in their 20s, right?
Not us.
No, thank you.
So it's about really appreciating it and just kind of changing your whole mindset and living
in the now and enjoying all of that.
Yeah, that's just given me goosebumps.
So I'm like, I never looked at it from that perspective and I'm just like, oh my God,
that makes so much sense.
Yeah.
And I think, you know, you hit the nail on the head with the thing about loving who you
are now.
I think one of the things that women struggle with in this decade is that self-love, the
self-acceptance, the kind of overcoming negative thoughts.
How do you specifically help women do that in Yoga Bellies and through your book, Yoga
Paws?
I think, I mean, as you said, like society tells us that as women get older, they decrease
in value, right?
It's all we're seeing is like plastic surgery, do this, do that, you know, stay, basically
your value is how young you can stay.
Your value is in your fertility, right?
But actually, and outside of Western cultures, the value is in the matriarch, is in the older
women, the wise women, the crone and that knowledge, right?
And if you think about it this way, women live five, six years, seven years longer than
men, right?
Now, biologically, there's a reason for that because women give birth, right?
Now, for nature to have taken women out of the game and to allow them to live seven years
longer than men, then what's happened there is biology, evolution has said, we need women
to pass on this important knowledge that they've gained through menstruation, pregnancy, postpartum
menopause, they need to pass that on to the kids because the men can't pass it on because
they've not been through it, right?
So that's why we live longer.
Like, evolution has allowed us to live longer because we are valuable at that age, not because
we're done, but because our role now is to enjoy the fact that we are no longer ruled
by the biological tyranny of menstruation, right?
That's gone and we can just enjoy being alive and enjoy all the good stuff, all the knowledge
that we have, all the wisdom.
The biological tyranny of menstruation.
Thank you for that, Cheryl, because that's what it feels like every month, I'll tell
you what.
And it's interesting because you're right, otherwise, if women didn't have a role, other
than giving birth, we'd be dead after we stopped menstruating.
Exactly, why would, I mean, evolution would have put menopause after birth.
Yeah, exactly.
That was our true ultimate purpose, right?
Our sole purpose.
Yeah.
Isn't that called a grandmother theory?
Like, isn't there a particular theory?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And, you know, we're still here and we're thriving and life does not finish when superiors
do.
Yeah, it's so, so true.
And I think, you know, it sounds to me like one of the reasons that you developed your
approach through yoga is to kind of help women accept their bodies and reconnect with their
bodies.
I have had so many women in there, you know, clients, but also friends, to be honest with
you, resist doing different forms of exercise, not just yoga, but let's put yoga in there
because of the way their bodies look and they can't kind of face that.
How do you help women specifically with the body image issues in your practice?
Throughout life, we have these transitions, right?
We have menstruation, pregnancy, postpartum, and they're all huge, physically, emotionally,
mentally massive.
And, you know, menopause and perimenopause, this is another one.
And I think the way we see it is our body is now deteriorating, right?
It's not, it doesn't bounce back as quick as it used to.
It maybe doesn't do the handstands it used to, especially if you do practice yoga.
Well, if you've never been able to do that.
Well, you know, it's like, what I'm saying is like the thing, if you used to run marathons,
whatever it is you did, right?
It's not as easy.
And the fact is, we're still pushing ourselves to do it, but our body doesn't want that anymore.
Our body needs something different.
And we were talking about, you know, Brian Keshe yoga and really dynamic yoga.
You know, I, my first yoga practice was Ashtanga, same kind of style power yoga, 90 minutes
a day, 60s a week, you know, I had abs you could great fees on.
I looked the part, but my hormones were wild, right?
They were all over the shop.
And because it wasn't like yoga is not made for women.
So, oh wow, that's interesting.
Yeah.
But yes, you know, you've got all of that, but it's really just getting people to listen
to their body.
And like I was saying, being aware of the present moment and saying, right, okay, I'm
forcing myself to go to the gym here, right?
I'm forcing myself to go and run this 10 miles or whatever.
Does my body actually want to know that doesn't mean letting yourself off the hook and going,
I'm going to be lazy and sit and watch TV, right?
But it's like, what movement does my body actually crave right now?
My yoga practice now is very much in, um, and I, you know, I do weights and stuff as
well, but my yoga practice is yen and it's deep and it's slow and it never was, but that's
what my body needs now.
That's what my body craves.
Yeah.
And you can acknowledge that what you need now is different from what you needed then,
but I definitely think women also get hung up on this thing is like, I used to X, Y,
Z, like you said, I used to run marathon and now I can barely run a 5k then run a 5k or
don't run or don't run.
It's a good thing.
Yeah, exactly.
I guess what, like, like that doesn't, you don't have to measure yourself against a previous
version of yourself.
And I think doing that is really, is really damaging, you know, the longer you let that
go.
And we do that with everything, right?
We do that with our looks, with our fitness level.
And it's kind of like, if I accept that I'm getting older, I've somehow given up, but
I want to help women change that mindset to the point of I haven't given up.
I'm accepting it because it's where I'm at right now and I'm going to enjoy this instead
of beating myself up because I'm not 22 and I'm not doing what I used to do and you know,
hard wrinkles, big deal, right?
It's about embracing all of that and really, I mean, do you really want to waste the next
10 years worrying that you're not 25?
Because then you're going to be 55, right?
Yeah, right.
Exactly.
22 is a ways away and only getting further.
Yeah.
And you're saying that, you know, like, don't waste that time not giving up, but there are
some people out there who might be like, right, okay, I'm no longer 25.
I can't do this shit, so I'm not going to do it.
And I'm just going to sit here and eat Oreos and ice cream from the tub and because I want
to enjoy my life.
What would you say to someone who is, is giving up because, because they're like, I can't
do this anymore.
So I'm just not going to do anything.
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Well, I think you need to find something you enjoy first of all, right?
So for me, I could have just said, okay, I don't want to do that crazy yoga practice
anymore.
Therefore I'm going to give up.
But I found a yoga practice that works for me that I actually love.
I enjoy it.
And as you were saying, like different types of yoga can be totally different.
And I think that's why most people after 40 have at least thought about doing yoga, right?
Yes.
It's brilliant for women, especially because bone health as well.
So it's not a case of, oh, I'm now getting a bit fat.
I'm just going to give up.
There's all sorts of different benefits.
It's going to help regulate your hormones, which as we know, peri and menopause, go bonkers.
It's going to help with bone health, prevent things like osteoporosis, osteopenia.
It's going to help with your balance.
It's going to help with cardiovascular health and mental health.
I mean, there are so many different benefits from yoga that you don't get from standard
exercise.
And it just combines it all at once.
It just makes sense.
It's like a package deal.
Yeah.
Well, and it's, you know, this is, this is, we're going off sheet here for a second, right?
But something that I hear from high performing women when it comes to, because you just mentioned
there's a bunch of different types of yoga, right?
I get this thing from high performing women all the time.
They're like, oh, I've tried yoga.
I just can't get there mentally.
Yeah.
Meaning like all I do in a yoga class is sit there and go through my to do list and let
my brain run wild and therefore I can't do yoga.
How do you get that woman into a yoga practice?
How do you help her find what you're all the great benefits you're describing in yoga?
Well, I mean, as I said, physically there's different ways of practicing yoga, right?
So some people prefer the more dynamic and like you're saying, someone may have gone
to a yoga class and went, oh, I hate yoga.
It's been too slow for them.
Yes.
Or too hard for them.
Yes.
So they have to try a few different types.
I would recommend like maybe try some YouTube videos or something like try out different
styles, go to different classes.
And the teacher that you have as well makes a huge difference.
So it needs to work for you.
But I know what you're saying about turning the mind off, right?
And I would say to them that the more your mind keeps going, the more you need yoga in
your life.
Yeah, agree.
And it's like people will say to me, oh, I can't, I wish I could do yoga.
I can't do it.
I'm not bendy.
Well, I mean, that's the whole point.
Yoga makes you bendy.
That's right.
You don't turn up at yoga flexible.
It makes you flexible.
That's the whole point.
Yeah.
So if your head is really busy, it's going to help calm that down.
And that's what I try to sell, you know, because like, again, I will not consider myself a
yogi, but I have been doing yoga for 25 years, like I've never taught or anything like that.
But, you know, and it's like, I try to explain that, you know, because my, in my other life,
I'm a CrossFit athlete.
So it's very high intensity.
It's very, you know, like the music and everything is intense.
And it's like the counterbalance of yoga for me is necessary.
It is necessary.
It's not that place where I'm like listening to loud music and lifting the big barbells.
It's the place where I can actually do the work for myself mentally.
Absolutely.
And it's like, I wish my woman would would see it like that, you know, where it's like,
not every workout has to be this intensity.
Around things like meditation, people say, oh, I just can't, I can't quiet my head.
Right.
And this is what everyone says.
The more you feel like that, the more you need to do it.
But what I see is if someone is really struggling, you know, with a very relaxing practice or
a silent meditation, I tell them to do a walking meditation.
So you know, either listening to an audio or just kind of walking along, focusing on.
So for me, one is I look at the weeds in the road.
So like weeds that come out of the pavement always fascinate me because it's like a plant,
right?
And that's cement.
And that is so strong.
This little weed is coming through the cement and it's growing.
And I think that's really symbolic as well.
You know, we're coming through the shit.
Yeah.
Like through menopause.
And it's just like, well, if this wee guy can do it, I can do it.
Exactly.
This little weed can get there.
Exactly.
I'm going to use that.
I'm going to try that.
So just walking along and notice the little things, you know?
Oh, I do like that.
I'm usually when I'm walking, I'm usually either listening to a podcast or something.
And I feel like that's not really switching off because what you're doing is I'm learning
during that period.
So I kind of feel maybe I need to take that time, maybe put on a mindfulness type of meditation
and really use maybe, I don't know, 10 minutes of that walk to switch off rather than be
turned on all the time.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And I think the thing with meditation as well is that people think, well, I have to sit
there for an hour.
Like five minutes is tons when you are sitting there.
And the more often you do it, the longer you'll be able to go.
Right?
So it's like any exercise, if I exercise every day, then I'll be able to do more each day.
But if I don't for a while, then I'm back to scratch again.
Right?
So it's the same with meditation.
Yeah.
But what I always say is, you know, you'll be sitting, you'll be trying to meditate and
you're thinking, did I pack my son's packed lunch?
What am I making for dinner?
Right?
All of this.
But that's fine.
That's just monkey mind that goes through everyone's head.
So I always say, like, just see it like a cloud going past in the sky.
Like you can see it, you know, it's there.
You're not panicking about it, but you're just letting it flow through.
Just like, ah, you're not attached to it.
Just like, bye.
You let it fly.
Yeah.
And then just come back to focus on your breath.
So Cheryl, I wanted to circle back to something that you kind of dropped earlier that I had
never heard about before, which is that yoga is not for women.
Yoga was developed for men.
Can you tell us about that?
Yeah.
So this is one of the main reasons I developed the yoga belly style like 15 years ago.
So as I said, I had a really strong Ashtanga practice and at six days a week, looked the
part and I'm thinking, why the hell am I not getting all these benefits from yoga that
everyone keeps telling me about?
My period stopped altogether.
My hormones were insane.
I was just a complete mess, right?
But I looked the part.
And you know, when you're 22, that's what happens.
Again, yes.
So I'm like, oh, right.
I really should be this vision of health.
And I went away and kind of looked into it and I was reading and Ashtanga yoga was actually
created to burn off excess sexual energy for teenage boys.
Right?
What?
So that's what the physical practice of yoga was for, to burn off their excess energy so
that they could sit quietly and Sukhasana and meditate.
Right?
So that is what the whole purpose.
Obviously, we're really focused on the physical practice now, but that's what it was for.
Now, I'm sorry, but I do not have the body of a 14 year old boy.
Right?
And I never have.
And you know, there's no, it does not accommodate for hips and breasts and wombs and periods
and hormonal fluctuations.
It's just, it's completely different.
So that's why I developed yoga bellies looking at the hormonal fluctuations and the life
stages and transitions that we go through.
And I don't think, you know, like you're a pre and post natal educator.
You can't ignore these life phases.
You can't just go, right, everyone in the one class because we are completely different.
Yeah.
We're all humans, but we've got different parts.
You know, and they work differently.
We are cyclical.
We are not the same all month long.
You know, we have high energy times, low energy times, emotional times, sexual times, all
different times.
Whereas, you know, men are like this every day.
Right?
So they can get up and go to the gym at seven, boom, boom, boom, boom every day.
Right?
They can do a 90 minute Ashtanga practice six days a week at the same time.
Exactly.
Right.
That's not good for us.
Right.
But women will come up and like two weeks of the month, they'll be like, yeah, I'm up,
I'm at the gym.
I'm doing my yoga, bang, bang, bang.
And then it's, oh my God, I can't move.
Right.
So I'm like that two weeks in one, I'll do my weights and you know, quite a dynamic yoga
practice and the other two weeks when I just pretty much listening to my body, no set schedule.
But when I am exhausted, when you know, a menstruating or premenstrual, I just give
into it.
I'm like, I'll lie in my yoga mat with a big bolster and hug it, you know?
Oh, I love that.
That's the best kind of yoga.
Restoring it is where I'm at.
Where can I go and do that?
I just do it on my balcony.
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Burn some incense, some nice tunes.
Just be kind to myself because if you do that, you know, in your low phase of the month,
then you're actually, you're supposed to be hibernating and you know, restoring our energy
levels during menstruation in that period so that in the high energy times we can make
the most of it and we can really enjoy ovulation and we can do all the millions of things we
want to do and have that, you know, mad active practice.
You know yourself sometimes, now whether you still menstruate or not, these cycles are
still present, right?
To a lesser degree, but you followed that your whole life and you will continue to have
those fluctuations.
So recognizing those and making the most of the high energy and you know, hiding and hibernating
when you need to, that's really important that we listen to ourselves and that's why
it's so important that we practice yoga.
And when I say that, I mean living right now and what's going on in our body and what do
we need and what's going on around about us.
You're so right.
And I think the seasonality, the cycles that you're talking about with women, I think it
is something that yet again, you know, bringing it back to high performing women, they almost
tend to either downplay or pretend it's not happening, right?
Because of that male expectation where everything is the same every day and so you should perform
every day and you should be at this level every day and we know that's not possible.
It's not possible and we overcompensate and we burn ourselves out.
Yeah, that's it.
That's it.
You end up burned out and you don't know why.
I mean, you should know why.
It's not what your body wants.
You know, so if working out every day of the month or six days a week, all month, that's
going to burn you out.
Surely the point of exercise and doing these things is so that you feel better.
You might look the part, but you're going to be emotionally, physically and hormonally
a shambles.
Yeah.
What would you say then for someone who is going through perimenopause?
How would you structure yoga or exercise?
Let's just say 28 days because I think usually, I mean, it's not 28 days when you go through
perimenopause, but let's just say a month.
How would yoga or mindfulness or exercise look for someone who is currently experiencing
crazy symptoms or might be transitioning but not experiencing any symptoms?
Right.
Okay.
So perimenopause myself, right?
So you've got all the things, you've got the hot flashes, all the other delights, insomnia,
whatever, right?
I think again, the most important thing is to tune into what you're experiencing, right?
So everyone's perimenopause is different.
Also your cycle is going to be all over the place as well.
So it's not your standard, this week's my period.
You know, you may have two periods, you may have no periods.
Nobody knows what's happening anymore, right?
So I would say track your cycle, identify times where, you know, is your PMS now worse
than it used to be?
Does it start earlier?
The main starts about 10 days before my period now.
So it's about half the month, right?
But I'm aware of that.
I know it's coming.
I'm particularly cranky.
I know what's going on.
I know how to treat myself.
So it's really being aware what's going on in your body.
How is it changing?
What symptoms are you experiencing?
What are you feeling emotionally?
Are you feeling irrational?
Are you feeling teary?
Are you really tired?
Because obviously fatigue is a fantastic symptom as well that we all love.
Are you waking up at 3 a.m. and can't get back to sleep?
All of these different things and saying, right, what can I do for that and what's going
to work for me?
And I think it's a very, very personalized approach.
In my book, there are yoga sequences and meditations for different symptoms.
So for particularly heavy periods or migraines, all these different things, right?
So there are set sequences and different postures that activate different glands and deactivate
different glands to help regulate your hormones as well.
But also there are things that will physically help with things like preventing osteoporosis
or hip pain or hot flashes or certain postures.
About wrist pain.
I've been struggling with wrist pain.
Exactly.
So there's modifications you can make and things like if you're having hot flashes,
postures you can do, ones you should avoid as well and just changing up your practice.
But it's very personal.
But I would say now is probably the most important time to track what's going on.
So that although it's irregular, you need to see what symptoms you're having when they're
coming up, when they're triggering them.
So as drinking alcohol, causing your hot flashes, right?
Can the waking up in the middle of the night, how can you get back to sleep?
Right?
How can you prepare for bedtime better to help you get to sleep?
Is it a nice yin practice?
Is it a meditation?
You know, what is it you're doing there?
But I think an important thing as well as, you know, I think a lot of women are scared
to be HRT and I don't think they should be.
I think it's not for everyone, but I think it's there as an option.
And just like pregnancy and birth and postpartum, you can't judge anyone's experience of menopause,
right?
Because it's so different.
It's like the kind of natural birth Nazis, right?
Like natural birth is great.
We all know that, right?
But not everyone can do it.
So if you need the help and you need to go down the medicine route, then absolutely do
it.
Yeah, we're so lucky we're in a time where we can benefit from medical interventions.
And it's required.
But, you know, live your life the best way you can, optimize it through movement and
food and rest and all of that stuff.
But where you need to just take the shit.
I mean, you're talking to someone who's on HRT and someone who I work in a medical clinic
where we prescribe HRT.
And it's so funny that like, like you said, women are sometimes like scared to use it
or feel guilty, like, oh, I don't, it's a crutch.
I don't need it.
It's like, it's actually perfectly okay.
You know, it's just like the epidural thing.
You mentioned where it's like, you know, how many women have I asked you in consultation?
Did you deliver vaginally or C-section?
And they'll say vaginally, but I used an epidural.
I was like, girl, I don't care.
It's almost like you're, you know, they're thinking I'm going to get a medal if I do
not have an epidural.
Oh, I'm going to, I'm going to or some outcome will be different.
It's like the breastfeeding medal.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
It's like, you know, yeah, the longer the better, right?
Like you get the five year legacy award.
No one is going to pay attention to what you did because everyone's just focusing on what
they need to do.
Exactly.
And I think you do what you need to do, right?
A lot of people that supplements changes your diet and things like, I mean, I love my caffeine,
right?
I've actually noticed in the last couple of years, like it's a trigger.
I can't drink as much.
I just don't want it.
And the thing is obviously during menopause as well, we develop things like new allergies.
One of my friends has developed an allergy to alcohol.
What?
Right.
So that's something that can happen.
Apparently it's like 20% of women will develop this after 40.
Yeah.
Fingers crossed.
That's an easy way to stop drinking.
Yeah, I'm like my tongue is like.
It just doesn't feel the same anymore.
Like I feel quite ill if I've had more than two glasses of wine now and it really affects
my sleep.
I feel really rough the next day.
Like hangovers are much worse.
It's just not worth it anymore.
I agree.
I've stopped drinking.
Yeah.
Not that I've stopped drinking.
Like I'll have maybe a glass of champagne if I'm out and I'm having dinner or whatever
it is.
But I won't actually choose to be like, Oh, I fancy a drink.
And to be honest, I never really fancy a drink because I'm always thinking shit is going
to fuck up my sleep.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
It just stops becoming worth it.
Because our hormones are changing, our bodies are changing again.
It's just, it just doesn't work.
Yeah, exactly.
Things just don't work the same way.
Well, think of that, things not working the same way.
Something I hear from women all the time in their forties is like, Oh, I used to be fit
like before my babies, before, you know, I was fit, but then perimenopause.
Or I was fit.
Like how do you help women get over that kind of what I used to be and also realize that
it's an excuse, you know, to say like that I used to be fit until.
I think that a lot, I think that society has an awful lot to answer for here because you
know, it's like you used to be young and now you're not.
Therefore you can just let it all go.
But it's not, and you can't, like we were saying earlier, you can't compare yourself
to being 25 or even 35, right?
Because you're older, your body has changed and needs different things.
And I think it's about saying, right, okay, so you want to be fit again.
So well, what does that look like now?
What can you do?
What, what, you know, what can you push yourself to do that's still comfortable and you still
feel good, but you're not knocking yourself out?
You know, what does that look like and finding that sweet space?
And again, that's very personal.
And I think that's why it's so important to live in the right now.
And you know, every morning I am actually one of these people gets up at five in the
morning, right?
But that's actually my son's fault.
Who's now 50.
He used to wake me up at like four 30.
So I wake up at four 50 every morning.
Bang.
Wow.
I know I will not say I wake up at four 50 bang.
I can't even help it.
So I just get up and I do yoga, right?
I start the day with like, right, what's going on in my body right now.
And I can, like when I'm watching people practice yoga as well, I can see what's going on.
I can see when they're holding tension in their shoulders and their hips.
And I'm like, there's something going on.
You can tell there's things going on that people are, their brain is elsewhere.
So I check in with my brain.
I'm like, right, what am I thinking about?
How's this affecting me physically?
So you know, it's not even like a long thing.
It's like two minutes.
Just right.
Let's check in.
Where are we?
What do I need today?
Maybe it's two, two million liters of water.
Maybe it's caffeine.
Look, whatever I need, right?
What do I need?
What's going to get me going?
How are we going to get the stuff done that needs done?
I feel good.
And I make sure that I do at least one thing that I really, really enjoy every day.
So something totally indulgent.
I think as women, that's something we avoid.
Yes.
And a bit like everyone, you know, could say I've actually gone about six months and not
done anything for me.
Right.
And I don't mean like going to get a manicure.
Obviously brilliant.
But just something you enjoy could be like listening to your favorite band.
It could be having a really extended shower.
It could be going for a swim in the pool, whatever.
Just something that's just for you.
Because you need to do that.
And if you're not going to do it at this stage in life, when are you going to do it?
Me as a cup of tea and chocolate.
Yeah.
Tea and chocolate.
It's like this is my time, my moment.
And I'm going to enjoy it.
Yeah.
For me, it's the big headphones in the weight room.
Nobody looking at me.
Nobody asking me anything.
No children hanging off of me.
And I can just lift my weights and turn out the world.
And we need to meet.
Yeah.
That's a huge part of your sanity.
Yeah.
Massive.
I'm actually going to be honest.
Like you mentioned manicure and I'm like, I don't find that.
I don't find that enjoyable.
I think so.
Because it's like another thing you got to do.
It's a chore.
I find like, oh, fuck, I need to go get my nails done.
That's it.
I was like time out of my day.
But you know, like that one moment where I'm like, all right, I'm going to have like 15
minutes just to have this tea and this chocolate.
But that manicure or pedicure, it's like, it's a to do list type thing for me.
Even just doing my roots.
I'm like, I used to enjoy going to the hairdressers and getting my roots done.
But then I realized it takes like four hours.
I'm like, ah, I haven't got time for that anymore.
Exactly.
It's like, where do you find a spare two hours to get your nails done?
I'm going, yeah, that's right.
Not in my world.
Hence why my nails always look like this.
What have I done?
I did it to the hip.
Looks good.
But I think, yeah, it's, we really need to take time for ourselves because we neglect
ourselves so much.
And women, again, another thing society has brought us up to be people pleasers and to
look after everybody else before the buzz.
And it's like, she's a woman.
She has, she looks after her mother and her husband and her kids and she does it.
And it's like your values of women is how young you are, how fair, how you are and how
well you look after it.
That's it.
And I've done probably in the last 10 years now, like when I have my period, right, wherever
that decides to come, I am super indulgent.
I'm like, right, this bad boy is coming.
So that's it.
Everything is off the table and I will spend like three days with my hot water bottle,
with my massive bolster, with my music, my incense, watching Sex and the City, eating
chocolate, just, you know, like total comfort stuff.
And that's what I do because, and I do not feel guilty for it at all.
And everyone knows, just keep away from me.
Yeah, exactly.
This is my cocoon.
Yeah.
And you know, I'm lucky, obviously I'm self-employed so I can plan for that sort of.
I won't be planning any parties or social activities or big meetings, nothing like that
during that time because that is cocoon time and I'll sit and watch rom-coms and have a
wee chai and you know, just peg out.
Yeah.
And that's me.
And you mentioned being self-employed and that actually leads really well into what
I wanted to ask you kind of, you know, not completely off topic from yoga paws, but thinking
about yoga paws and yoga bellies as a business, right?
So you actually help women leverage their own passion for yoga into a business.
And this is what I love.
I want to hear more about this Cheryl, because how often do you hear the story, right?
I left my corporate job to teach yoga and that sounds amazing.
And then you realize you left your corporate job and your corporate salary.
So now you're kind of struggling to meet it and to make ends meet simply because you're
teaching yoga.
So how do you help women leverage their love of yoga, their practice into a business?
This is very, very helpful.
Yeah.
So I mean, I did the corporate thing as well.
I was a business analyst for Barclays until my son was born and I was made redundant and
I was a yoga teacher already, but just kind of taught for my friends for free and for
fun.
Side dig.
Probably.
Because you think I can never make money.
Exactly.
I do this fun thing on the side.
This is not a real job.
I thought, oh, right, I've got this spare bedroom, maybe I can teach like pregnancy
yoga in the spare bedroom when my son goes to sleep.
And maybe I can do this while he's young and make a little bit of pocket money, you know,
to keep us going, blah, blah.
So I did that and then it like became really popular super fast.
And then I wrote the 200 hour training for the teachers and then I had to train teachers
and bring them all.
I had to do all this really quickly.
So I brought them in and then so I had a way of doing it.
I did everything myself.
I totally bootstrapped at the website, wrote the course plans, everything myself, made
up the packs for the mums, you name it.
And I did all of that.
And then I was like, right, I really don't want anyone changing this formula.
And I actually know how to do this and how to make money and how to see the bookings
so that teachers are not out of pocket and that they're maximizing their profits and
their efficiency.
And I'm good at systems, right?
We're getting things into place.
So then I went to this like business accelerates or thing.
They give me advice and a little you need to franchise this.
You need to trademark it.
I said, all right, I'm quite uncomfortable with that because it's yoga.
But they're like, no, no, it's just from a legal point of view.
I was like, okay, cool.
So it did that.
And it did mean that I was able to keep things structured, the style of yoga, how it was
taught, which was super important that it's translated the same way.
But back to your question, how do I help mums do this?
So basically I'm like, I'm just going to show you exactly what I did.
Love it.
Just show them exactly what I did.
And when people join.
So I have like a 300 hour training is called the power and it takes, they will be a qualified
yoga teacher at the end of it, but also, you know, a women's yoga teacher.
So we go through all the different life stages.
We spend the whole first module on soul healing.
So dealing with the air, limiting beliefs and core values, what's been holding them
back in life.
How do they want to change that going forward?
Because I think if someone is leaving corporate and becoming a yoga teacher, they don't just
want to become a yoga teacher.
They want a whole different life.
Right?
Yes.
Right.
So I'm not sure that you get this lifestyle because there's no point in becoming a yoga
teacher than killing yourself, doing silly admin.
You don't need to do and teaching their errors a week.
You'd be as well taking the corporate wage, right?
Yeah, exactly.
You're just doing a mini corporate basically.
So we do all of that.
And then we do the last module we do is the business training, right?
Soulful entrepreneurs.
So all the way through it, we help them come up with a plan.
What do you want to get out of this training?
How much money do you want to make?
How often do you want to work?
And then we work out, right?
Okay.
So you want to make this amount of money.
That means that many classes with this amount of people in it, this amount of times a week,
blah, blah, blah, maybe do two workshops a month.
So we help them figure it all out.
So we leave the training.
They've got a plan to actually take it and turn it into a business.
So I don't want people coming in and learning how to do, you know, the splits and then going
away and going, how the hell do I make money?
Yes, exactly.
Because I mean, from my teacher training, there's maybe 50 of us on it.
It was a brilliant teacher training, but there was no business element.
And I think there's maybe two of us teaching.
Yeah.
And I think that's like 20 years later.
Yeah.
And I don't want that.
All my teachers that graduate, they all teach.
They're all teachers.
That's amazing.
And they all make lots of money.
Some of them make more money than me.
And that's it.
And see, that's great, right?
Because I, you know, obviously being in your same field, right?
Like being in fitness.
I remember the days of being a personal trainer and it's like you're trading time and money.
That's it.
It's like, here's an hour of my time.
What is it worth in money?
And that's a one-to-one exchange, but actually helping women scale businesses and look at
different opportunities.
And you mentioned like doing workshops.
How do you get more bang for your buck type thing?
I think.
How do you do online stuff as well?
So I mean, I have people come into the Empowered Training who've been teaching yoga 20 years
and they're like, do you know what?
I'm sick of making no money.
I want you to do this properly.
Or people who've never taught yoga before.
So it's a mixed bag.
And they've all got different levels of business experience as well.
And they all, some people want to teach two classes a week.
Some people want to run their own yoga teacher training school.
So whatever they are, I'll help them get there.
Right.
So I've got like a teacher who's just started her own podcast, which is awesome.
And she's won all these women in business awards.
She's doing absolutely brilliant, you know, so I've got different teachers doing different
things.
So it's about finding them where they are and then helping them get there.
So you know, I've got a teacher like, I want to run retreats.
And I'm like, okay, I'll tell you how I did that.
Let's go and do it.
And then at Yoga Bellies as well, we continue to work with the teachers after training.
So they have an option.
It's totally optional, but they can purchase a license.
It's no longer a franchise, so they can purchase a license.
And you know, we have like a really strong community, like teachers globally.
And we're all pitching in, like helping each other.
And we do kind of regular like CPD.
We'll do Zooms, meet up for retreats, stuff like that.
And it's just, you know, supporting each other.
And you can come on and say, look, I've got this client with them, vulva variscotesis,
variscocities, and I don't know what the hell to do with it.
Right.
Or something totally obscure.
And there'll be someone there that's like, oh yeah, I did that.
Or someone like, I can't get anyone in my Monday class.
What do you think of this time?
And the people are like, no, that's a bad time.
Or, you know, so help them with the yoga and the business side of it.
It's just great.
I love it.
Some of my best friends are my teachers.
Oh, wonderful.
I'm assuming you started your business while you were still in the UK.
Yes.
How was it then?
Because you said you've been in Singapore now for 10, is it 10 years?
11 years.
11 in January, I think.
Wow.
How was it moving your business from the UK to Singapore?
Did you feel like you were starting again or was it quite an easy way to sort of bring
it with you?
I wouldn't say it was easy.
There were some definite teething issues.
But I have teachers all over the world and a lot of brilliant senior yoga teachers that
deliver teacher training and retreats and stuff for me.
So I mean, the teachers are awesome.
Like we're such a cool family.
Like I love these guys.
So it wasn't that hard and they certainly made it a lot easier to do it.
So for a while we had, I had senior teachers kind of conducting the trainings in the UK
and I would kind of do retreats over in Asia and I would sometimes get back for it.
You know, we're trying to do blah, blah, blah.
And then actually COVID was awesome.
It wasn't awesome, but things started to go online, right?
We didn't really have the technology, but now I do all my teacher training online.
I've got a teacher delivering from Thailand, one from Dubai, one from Scotland.
I'm doing from Singapore.
So they're getting like experience from all over.
And we have teachers joining globally, which it just wasn't accessible.
And the fact that most of our teachers are moms as well.
Like it used to be four day weekends.
And if you think you have to get childcare, get flights, get hotels, all of that, right?
It made it like so many people couldn't join because it was just impossible.
But now people are like, they've got their baby there.
They're taking notes or they're like doing yoga and they've got their dog in the background
and it's chaos.
And it's like, do you know what?
That's how moms roll, right?
That's life.
That is it.
You just do it and it totally works and it's awesome.
Amazing.
And actually I retreated around in Bali last year.
One of the girls, she came along.
I was like, oh, blah, blah, blah.
And it was great to see you again.
And then I realized I hadn't actually met her in person before.
Oh wow.
It was about two days in, I realized.
And I was like, what?
This is the first time I've actually met you in person.
Yeah, because I've just seen you through the screen.
You know each other so well.
And I think with the online thing as well, you've actually got much more access to people
because you've got daily access.
Whereas before it was like you'd see them once a month for that intense periods of time
and then you wouldn't speak to them for no communication.
But now we have the technology and it's awesome.
And again, using that technology to our advantage as busy moms, I think is very, very crucial.
It's so important for moms.
Like so many people in the past were like, I can't do it for three days.
How do you do that with babies?
You don't.
You don't have to do breastfeeding or not or whatever.
It's like you can't just pack up and go somewhere for four days.
It's not realistic.
No.
And financially as well, it's all that additional cost on top of it.
The resources.
Well, we have loved having you on today to chat with us Cheryl.
But of course we have our last question that we ask every single guest on the 40s formula.
And it is what's the 40s formula?
So from your background and your perspective, what are the things that women in their 40s
need to know to thrive?
Look after yourself.
This stage of life is about you.
You've been the wife, you've been the mom, you've been the caregiver.
This is about you.
Just look after yourself and you'll thrive and just enjoy all of it.
This is the best time of your life.
I love it.
I'm so excited.
Yeah, we agree.
And it's funny how many guests we've had that say the exact same thing, by the way, in terms
of this is the time of your life.
This is it.
Enjoy every bit of it.
You're not old.
You're not out to pasture.
This is the time of potential.
My 40s have been the best.
I'm having a bowl.
Amazing.
That's so good.
Thank you so much.
Thanks so much for having me.
Thank you.
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That's the F-O-R-T-I-E-S formula.com.
This is Paul, our editor.
He's a 25 year old unmarried Singaporean guy listening to the ramblings of 12 older
women on everything from menopause to weightlifting to sex.
So Paul, what's your thoughts on today's conversation?
Yogi?
Woohoo!
I'm so sorry.
I've actually never tried yoga and again, you know, I don't have much of an opinion
for this episode because I don't have that experience.
But you know, for my Yogi friends out there, if you're looking to start a yoga business,
Cheryl is the right person for you.
So feel free to give her a shout out and yeah.
Guys, you know how much we love coffee?
And if you want to show us some love, you know, you can get us one.
Just visit buymeacoffee.com slash the 40s formula.
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Bye.
You're such a positive voice, which is so helpful to hear, you know, like everything
is like, no, it's going to get better.
It's going to be okay.
It's going to be fine.
And I'm so excited.
Yeah, me too.
I'm really looking forward to this.
I love that.
You know, everything is, it doesn't matter if you're thinking a hundred million things.
It's normal.
Let them, let them fly by.
I mean, I've actually got ADHD as well.
So I think I was probably drawn to yoga at a young age and I didn't realize why it was
so helpful.
But listen, if I can meditate, right, when I have constant music playing in my head,
like yeah, yeah, yeah.
And you're so right.
Like I think the women who say the things like, oh, I can't do yoga because I can't
shut it off.
They need it more.
It's like literally you can like you absolutely can, but you have to try.
It's just a bit more effort required.
You can't like just jump up and run a marathon.
You have to work up there.
Exactly right.
Exactly the same.
And you wouldn't expect it, but somehow in yoga you expect to be instantly zen.
I must be bendy and have a silent mind.
And be just like, not going to happen.
I can't do either, but I will try.