So what we do in couple therapy is I'm not going to change the pursuer as a pursuer
I'm not going to change a redraw as a redraw
But rather can we make soften the pursuer in his or her dance and perhaps help to encourage the redraw
Or to come forward a little bit in this dance. Yeah, so that there's still that connection dang. I'm seeing I'm I'm like a pursuer
I see it net like I'm definitely the pursuer like I just realized it
We talked about this before the wheat our partners are our opposite like it's like so yeah, your your husband my husband are
The opposite we're the opposite
Hey, hey and welcome to the 40s formula
You're going to place for insightful discussions on navigating the 40s and thriving in this transformative decade
We're your hosts Jasmine and Amanda two women that are passionate about exploring the challenges and adventures that come with turning 40 and what lies ahead
Theresa Pong is the founder and counseling director at the relationship room a
private practice that specializes in relationship and marriage counseling a
Registered counselor and clinical supervisor with the Singapore Association for counseling
She is also a certified emotionally focused couples therapist and was named one of Singapore's 40 over 40 inspiring women in 2023
Although she deals with a broad spectrum of concerns such as depression and conflict management
Her main area of expertise lies in aiding couples recover from affairs and infidelity
Over the past 14 years she has journeyed alongside many hurting individuals couples and families
Empowering them to turn disappointments to hope
Enabling them to build positive connections with other people and helping them to live their lives to the fullest every day
Theresa is happily married with one teenage daughter and spends her free time traveling reading and jogging
So no matter what you're striving for in your 40s
The likelihood is that you're doing it with someone a partner a spouse a longtime companion and navigating
Relationships in this decade is really crucial to feeling your best our guest today is Theresa Pong
Registered counselor and founder of the relationship room whose slogan is restoring hope
Reigniting marriages and rebuilding connections. I honestly want to talk about all three of those today. So thank you for coming Theresa
Thank you for this invitation
Yeah, we're so happy to have you and if we're being honest, at least if I'm being honest the reigniting marriages piece feels so
relevant to women in this decade
Can you tell us about the common issues that you see that that women feel like they need to?
Reignite in their marriages and how you help people do that sure, you know Amanda and just me not look at the typical
Singaporean lady in her 40s today
I mean she is most likely to be holding some kind of responsibility
Or senior position in the company and if she's married
I mean she have also her priorities her kid most likely if I could guess could be preparing for the big exam for their life
PSLE or in secondary school
But the same time this lady also have other priorities maybe financial commitments and the other aspect is
She got to take care of her elderly parents. You know medical fees in Singapore could be very expensive
So with so much on her plate
Unfortunately in the observations that I see the marriage
Relationship will become the bad burner
So by the time she realizes that the mess something is happening to the marriage
It could be late. It could be accumulative years of pains and hurt and neglect
So by the time she realizes it
The marriage needs to be done
The marriage needs repair and it needs help and that's what we do at the relationship room to reunite the marriage
Yeah
And you know, what are some tips you give women in that exact situation right where it's like you because i've definitely had days like this
Right where it's like i've been working all day tending to the kids. We live with my husband's parents
So, you know, you know with the elderly
And then I get home and it's like I got nothing I got nothing left to give
You know, what's an actionable tip you can give women to kind of in those moments of like I can't even
Fathom talking to touching my partner like what?
How do we get past that always tell yourself that?
Give yourself as a priority because without any energy without any you know, like space for yourself
You can't give to the rest now one of the tips that I always share with my clients is
You know
They always say that I know I almost run from 6 a.m in the morning and by the time I go to bed is like
12 midnight or 11 p.m
But in between there are spaces for you to take that break even for let's say transport from office back to home
You could even rest during that time on the mrt or the public transport
And then so that when you reach home, you still have some energy left for your family
Yeah, I love I I follow an influencer. Okay, i'm not gonna say her name because she's much younger than me
She calls it pockets of peace. Yeah, and I think that's a really nice way of saying it
It's like even if it is an mrt ride. Yes, it could be a five-minute meditation. It could be definitely right?
So it could be a pocket of peace if you carve it out, correct?
Yeah, that's a really good tip. One of the things I quite like to do is actually with my husband is I
Like to pick him up in the car from the mrt station and that gives us maybe 15 minutes of just the two of us
Sitting in the car so he's got nowhere to run
And then I can you know talk to him maybe offload my day or whatever it is
But it's just that time without the kids. I know that no one else is going to be there
And you know, we can have this conversation about you know
What it is that needs to be done or you know how his day went or how my day went and
And I find that kind of helps to
Give us a little bit of a I don't know recharge almost because otherwise you're always looking for when can I sit down?
Because I know for a fact if he came home by himself when he gets home
He wants to eat dinner and then it's like the tv comes on and then it's like then we're going to bed
And it's like when do you get the time to actually just sit and talk? You know, why this is so beautiful
You know, it's so intentional to just carve out that 15 minutes precious time
That's great tip
And I think you know when you just said like just 15 minutes or just mrt ride or just a car ride
I think you know in my work with people with x-rays
It's the same thing right they think it has to be an hour of dedicated gym time or it's nothing
No, it could be 15 minutes of walking and that's good enough. Yeah, you want one minute on the plank. Yes
Yes, exactly. So we can treat our relationships the same way like a small dose is better than none. Yeah
It's cumulative small gestures small gestures. I love that
You know and speaking of small gestures you mentioned in your bio that
You were someone who suffered from a heart attack
You mentioned in your bio that you were someone who suffered from recurrent disappointments small and large
Right and that that's something that led you on to this career path. Can you tell us a bit more about how
You felt you were trapped in this cycle of kind of negativity disappointment and how you came through it
Sure, you know, it's like as an asian adult growing up in a traditional chinese family the
Image of what I call the success actually comes with three factors. For example, I mean the first one is your university
You know education, you know achievements
Your job your career, you know, you're expected to be joining a large corporation
And then there's this image of what a successful family is. You must have happy children and having a good lifestyle
So growing up I managed to achieve the first two I graduated with a degree
I got a job. I would say with a well large corporation in singapore
But when it comes to relationship
I didn't know I didn't have the skills and I was in and out of many what I call toxic relationships that left me feeling
Very broken and every time when I come out of a broken relationship that makes me feel like I have just lost that part of
self-esteem
So by the time I hit the 20s the mid 20s, I realized i'm actually experiencing symptoms of depression
Yeah
And also at that point of time. I realized that I didn't enjoy the job that i'm in
I mean, yes, it pays me well. It's a nice company, but I didn't enjoy the job
So of all this
Crashing in a friend actually, you know recommended me to try counseling now at that point of time counseling was something that's not
Spoken very often unlike now
So but that actually started me a seven-year journey of rediscovering myself and doing inner work to heal
My you know the pain the hurts that I went through I rebuilt my self-esteem
And by the end of the seven-year journey, I met my current husband
Yeah, but it was also through this seven-year journey I rediscovered myself what success really mean
It's not about no like earning big bucks or being working in a very prestigious company
But really doing something that you believe for and you enjoy
At that point so I actually went to further my studies in counseling
And this is also when I actually took a 60% pay cut to start my career
From ground zero that had me tough. Yeah, but this journey went very fast
I mean now i'm into my almost 15 years in this journey
So time flies, you know, it was the right move
But with the encouragement of my husband
Yeah
I heard someone say once and i'm going to be honest. I can't remember who said it but
Expectation is almost the route to disappointment. So, you know if you're expecting something
You're very likely to be disappointed. Do you feel that?
people are always expecting something from their relationships or something from their partners which will constantly lead to disappointment and
And is there anything that we can do to kind of help?
manage that sure
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Now back to the chat
I think the most important thing that I want to highlight here is whose
expectations a lot of time these expectations come from the society our parents our friends because we so fear
judgment and criticisms
But if the expectations is coming from us and especially when we know that this expectation is coming from what I call a very secure
Self that we know what we want
We won't fall into disappointment
Yeah, and the secure self. I think that is something that women in their 40s need to hear
Right is that it is very hard to be depressed disappointed anxious if you're truly secure in yourself
Yeah, but it takes work. You don't emerge from your 30s suddenly secure
After two decades of insecurity
Women in 50s and 60s still feeling very insecure. Yes
Yeah, how do you how do you get women to find that secure self? I can't say get how do you encourage women?
To look for a more secure sense of self. I work with many individuals, especially individuals who have
Setbacks from dating relationships. And so by the time they come to see me they were at their lowest point in their life
So what I do is actually let's be brave. Let's face your vulnerabilities
Let's face what you don't want to see
And feel it and then we will work together how we can change that narrative
So that it builds you and make you feel more secure
So for example, all right, I have a client who share with me that you know, to reason i'm very unlucky
I'm very unfortunate because i'm born in a
Family where my father passed away when I was very young I was being no like put from family to family
So she carried this narrative that i'm just no bad luck
And so after working a few sessions, she actually
Shifter in her narrative. She said that i'm not so unfortunate because even if my father passed away at my age of 12 years old
I spent a good solid 12 years with him
Yeah, that's what we are looking for little vitreous and little success would help to change the narrative
Yeah, and that's you know, the reframing bit I think is so important because that as you tell that tale, right?
It's heartbreaking you think of a 12 year old girl losing her father. It's about the worst thing you could think of
But like you said 12 years with a father right versus zero versus five. I mean, this is at least something so I think
Anytime we're facing this kind of persistent narrative of negativity and we all tell ourselves these stories right that are damaging to our self-image
You must find a way to reframe it or it will haunt you forever
But before we go into the reframing part, which I I would say that yes
No, we have to do the reframing but we also have to go through the emotional closure
That is we work through our emotions. We find healing we accept what has happened
And that's where the reframing will comes in
Have you had a client really struggle with closure on some issue like where like she just can't face it? Yes
Especially when it comes to unforgiveness
You know example. Yeah, so for example, I I remember a few years ago
Um, I was when I was actually working in the community as a counselor
So that's this lady, you know, she is actually a cleaner. She came to see me
She said that you know the company who hired her her decided to ask her to go because she's not doing a great job
And she felt so upset with the person who asked her to go and she couldn't forgive it took us
You know a lot of months to work with her
Until one day she decided that hey, you know, i'm not going to get this feeling to you know, eat me up
I want to move on
Yeah, but she had to decide it. Yes, correct. Yeah, it's also because at that point of time the circumstances have changed
She got another job. So maybe it helps her in that process
Yeah
But it sounds like when something takes such a big hit to your sense of identity, right?
Like she obviously felt passionately about her her job. Yeah
Yeah, it was like she couldn't take a hit that was like related to that bit of her identity
Oh, man
you um
You spoke about some of the things that um women tend to deal with when it comes to the 40s
What issues do you see sort of from?
let's say the husband's side that tend to
Maybe cause um an imbalance in a relationship
So is there anything that comes up again and again like from the husband's viewpoint?
Not about his wife, but you know about his wife
Exactly what the women in the 40s face the men in the 40s will also face the same
But they are actually having even more pressure because especially in asian context the men in the 40s are expected to be successful
To be the main bread winner
Even if my spouse like lost a job or decided to be a stay at home mom. I am expected to actually go through all this
Pressures or stress at work just to make sure that that's bread on the table
Now men in this age also shares with me that what they're struggling with is whether can they find somebody especially the spouse?
understand what they go through
What they're experiencing is when?
Things happen, you know at home
The wife or the spouse will actually put a focus on the children first children will come first husband comes second
And a lot of times they felt neglected in the relationships
I heard somewhere that
Men want to be admired and women want to be adored and I felt that was so
Pertinent because I kind of feel like the men, you know, like they might feel i'm doing all of this for my family
And they want their wives to see that what they're doing is their way of I guess showing love
You know that this i'm doing for you, even if it is staying late at work
Attachment need they want to be acknowledged. Yeah, they want to know that I put in so much effort
Please see what i'm doing for the family. Yeah, so how much of your attachment style?
I guess is related to
the kind of relationship that you're in and
And is there is there does there tend to be a mismatch sometimes and how can you work on that?
right
Each of us have different needs. All right, some of us want to feel loved some of us want to feel adored
Some of us want to feel like hey, we are appreciated. We are this person who is able to provide for the family
Whatever the needs is the most important here is how can we get the couples to see each other needs and respond to them?
A lot of times, you know, it's like the conflicts that they bring to the counseling room is
They feel like are we doing a keeping score here?
So for example the husband say okay, you know, I work uh until 9 pm and the wife say, you know
It's like I work also until 9 pm. So we have this comparison
And that is how
it created a
War between both of them and they are not able to connect and when there's no connection
This is when the relationship will spiral
And how do you like so I know that on your website you always talk about vulnerability and connection, correct?
Those are the two kind of building blocks of relationships when you have this kind of tet a tet right where it's like
I work till 9 I work till 9 or I work till 9. Well, i'm home all day with the kids, right?
I slept for six hours
Four and a half because I was up with the baby or whatever, you know, how do you help couples get past that word?
Just sure is that constant keeping score? All right
I mean, this is a very good question because I got asked this many times
Yeah, because I'm sure it happens it happens in my relationship for sure. That's definitely
First of all
We connect on vulnerability
So whenever we are able to share vulnerability
We connect now having said that vulnerability is not about telling each other's your life history, right?
But it's more of can we focus on our emotions and our experiences?
So for example, let me just give you an example where I know both the partners are working until 9 pm
Instead of focusing on the context which is like hey, you know, I work until 9 pm. I work until 10 pm
Then you have this fight
Perhaps one of them who can say that you know, I feel so tired. I've been spending long hours
And I don't like it
It's just very simple, you know experience and emotions
And that create you know, like a connection and especially if their partner can validate and say yeah
I get it, you know, you work whole day. You don't get to see the children
You know, you say you feel like it's taken so much of you away from the family
And that's the start of the connection. Yeah, it's like unpack the complaint correct. What's the emotion?
So a lot of times in the counseling session
When I hear contents like comparison, I try to hear what is the pain? What's the need behind this comparison?
Yeah, and that I think that's something we can all remember because I I know that I tend to you know
When my because my partner I it's it's not often work related because we work together
So that doesn't really come up a lot
But it is a lot of like yeah time kind of with the kids exactly who's doing what for the kids, right?
And I'm always I'm always feeling like I'm the one doing more for the kids
But he's like but I provide you know, it's like we have this whole back and forth
So I think just pause here. I just wanted to say something, you know that conversation that I demonstrated just now
It'll be good if you both of you can speak during the 15 minutes in the car or in the kitchen
But I also noticed in my practices that some of these conversations take place in the office pantry
With another colleague and that's how it gets started off with infidelity or extra marital affair
Because we all connect on vulnerability
Yeah, so I also want to encourage you know, take the taking this opportunity to encourage couples
Let's draw boundaries and let's protect our marriage. I love that. I love that. I have always okay
I don't know if i'm just like a Pollyanna
And again because my work situation is so different because we work together
But in a business that we own right so it's just the two of us. I always am uncomfortable
By this term work wife work husband. Oh, that's my work wife
And it's like if my husband had a work wife, you better bet i'd have an issue with that. That's not okay
Yeah, you know and even if even if he had a work husband meaning like a male colleague that he felt comfortable confiding in
It's like it's almost like you should confide in me. Yeah, because it's the emotional
It's the emotional connection right and I feel like it's gonna sound all right
if I feel like is that more cheating rather than the the physical side because it feels like that connection should be between you two
As your husband and wife that's something that you should have as opposed to you know, being able to open up and and
And say your sort of inner most secrets to someone else
I mean it's different, you know if they're just talking to I don't know a guy friend or something. Yeah, then that's it
Yeah
The base relationship is friend. Yeah, but like if you're taking a work colleague aside and giving him your deepest heart and soul
That feels weird to me
Yeah
And that's dangerous because the more connected you are with this person outside the marriage the more you're going to get disconnected in your own marriage
Yeah, I hear that I hear that so much and I think you know
What's your opinion on this Teresa? It's like we were talking about like we're busy right? We got kids
This is the other there's only so much to give. Yeah, and if you're giving
Any element of that emotional energy to another person you have even less to give to your partner
Tracy you mentioned infidelity now in a situation where?
Say there is infidelity. Is there a way of coming back from that?
for a husband and wife to be able to I guess we
rekindle their marriage or just you know be
Back in a maybe a better place than they were before. Is there a way of doing that?
All right. First of all, we have to determine what kind of infidelity is it?
So for example infidelity can be in a form of just one night stands or maybe like
Checking out for those sleazy massages or maybe pornography now that will come under a umbrella
We call sexual addiction
So that's easier to deal with because what we know is most of our spouses who go for this kind of uh,
Infidelity is just going for that process that euphoria or the dopamine
Uh
Search that's all and then we just need to find how can we help them to manage to find a healthy coping mechanism?
That's easier to work with but what's harder to work with is what I call the extra marital affair where there is a connection
Now as I mentioned just now when there's a connection with someone outside
We need to know how long this connection is if anything that's around maybe a year or less
Yes, it's easier to work with but anything more than a year of connection
The challenge is here. So I will always tell my couples that you know
Don't see couple counseling at this stage as trying to fix your marriage
But rather let's use the marriage counseling that journey just to seek clarity to find out
How did both of you come to this stage?
And then both of you decide whether is this marriage for both of you and if both of you decide that yes it is for us
Yes
Then we will move on to the next stage where we will work and see how we can restructure the interaction between the both of you
to strengthen and build the marriage
but a lot of times sometimes they'll feel like
I'm sorry. I don't think my heart is here anymore in this marriage
Then we this is a time where I will have to work with the couples to grieve over the loss of this marriage
Yeah, and is that common?
Yes, it is common, but I would say that you know, let's not give up hope
As long as both of you are willing to come and spend time, you know on working on this marriage going for couple therapy
You know, it's like it is still worth it to fight for your marriage
Yeah, and would you say and again, I'm sure every practice is different just like every couple is different
Yes, but when you when when a couple does come to you for counseling
The outcomes would you say more so they stay together?
More so they stay together after infidelity or more so they don't
Okay, generally because I use this framework called the emotionally focused couples therapy now research has said that couples who have gone through this
therapy
75 percent of the couples have actually moved from distress
To recovery. Oh wow 75 percent. That's wonderful big number
Yeah, but they haven't said that there's still a 25 percent sure
Yeah, that's still one in four. So it's not small. Correct. So when couples come I will always always go for the 75 percent
Until we reach a stage and say that hey, this is not for us, Teresa and I respect the decision
Yeah, and is there one
partner more than the other partner
Who sort of will say?
This is not working. Like for example, let's say it's an extramarital affair
and let's say
one of the
The spouse was in a long term relationship with somebody else
Is it usually the person who was in the or the usually the person who was having the affair or is it usually the person who?
in the other person
Um, generally I would say that the one or what I call the injured partner here
Yeah, all right the injured partner still want to fight for the relationship
It is what I call the offending partner, especially if this offending partner has been in that
extramarital relationship for long
He or she would most likely want to
Really reconsider the marriage and a lot of times they do think about whether do I still want to stay in this marriage?
Is it almost like a pros and cons as to who is going to be the better
Long-term partner, I guess, you know, like is it my
my
Husband or wife that i've been with for I don't know 10 years
Um versus this new boyfriend or girlfriend that i've been with for you know, two years, right?
So it's a lot of times it's all back to this attachment need
So for example, the offending partner will say that you know in the other relationship that person knows me well
That person, you know journeys with me the ups and downs hers my in my own relationship my own marriage
My own spouse doesn't seem to understand me
Yeah, doesn't seem to see where i'm coming from
Yeah
Even if it was like that from the start, you know, like, you know before they had kids before they got into this
Um, I guess situation right so it it could be that they then let's say they leave their current partner
They decide to have a full-time relationship with the other person
Let's say they end up having kids and then they fall would they would it be likely that they may fall back into the same cycle of
Because of their attachment style they fall back into the same herd again. Yeah
Yeah, it's possible
Have you said that I was a wise couple who decided to date or get into a relationship after a breakout or a divorce
I would tell them please take time
Please take time
You know like let's reflect what has happened in your previous relationship before jumping into another relationship
Yeah, because we don't want the cycle to happen again. Yeah, and that is good advice
You know, it brings it back to that that you know finding your secure self
It's like you need to know who you are before you get into another relationship, you know
Because otherwise mistakes will repeat themselves, right?
But I want to answer back to jasmine's question now
We also see another group the of the injured partner after a few sessions after hearing what's happening in the marriage
He or she will also make the decision say hey enough is enough. I don't think I want this relationship
I don't want to live in a relationship filled with so much
Betrayal lies
I just want to protect myself and maybe the kids. Yeah, I mean he and she would say that
I want to live this marriage and I respect that as well
And I mean for those listening who have never been to therapy never been to counseling like don't even don't even really understand
What goes on there? Right? It's the big unknown. Yeah, what is the effectiveness of couples counseling?
How you know like how many sessions would they do like like what is it walk us through a typical couples counseling?
Journey because yeah, I think a lot of folks don't even know
I mean like I mean i'm more than happy to share. I mean as I share the statistics
We're looking at success rate of about 75 percent, but this 75 percent takes time to be there
So generally it's not one and done
We walk in with Teresa for an hour and we're better
No, all right. So generally this
Journey if i'm looking at per session about 16 minutes to 75 minutes and I see my couples once in a week
You will take anywhere between eight sessions to 20 sessions or even more
Depending on the complexity. So when I talk about complexity, I mean we are all human beings each of us is unique
We are not like a machine or prototype
time you see
So this complexity could be are we dealing with infidelity?
That itself is what I call a rapture in the relationship
So I need time to go there just to stabilize the emotions and to repair the rapture
You know
And that also depends on whether are there any past hurt or injuries?
All right that you can't let go of any unforgiveness
Other factors will also include let's say childhood experiences that shape
You know who you are a past dating experiences and sometimes unknowingly we bring this emotional baggages
Into the sessions. So I have seen couples from six months all the way to two years
Wow, just to bring them to a stage where i'm just not just looking at stabilizing, you know the quarrels or the conflicts
But bringing them to a stage where they can be vulnerable to share the yearnings
The fear with each other and that's where the connection comes in. Yeah, and that takes time. You're right
There is time six months to two years
Yeah
And I think you know one of the issues that people have with coming to counseling right is that they're okay
So six months to two years that that sounds reasonable to like repair a deep, you know, kind of a deep cut
But like people like well, i'm busy i'm working like how can I possibly squeeze in?
Counseling amid all the other things that I have to do. So how do you address that?
Yeah, I mean like let's look at it. We have three people's schedule to manage
My schedule and the two partners
Yeah, so this is where uh at the relationship room
We actually offer a two-day intensive marriage intensive where I sit with them for at least six hours a day
Yes, but in this two days the work that we do is equivalent to about 10 to 15
In the I mean like per weekly sessions
So whatever we do in about no three to four months is being actually
Being shortened to two days. Wow. Yeah, that is intensive
Yeah, and that's intensive, but it doesn't mean that after two days we have this job
I was just about to ask is it is there like a success rate for like an intensive two days?
Does that mean what your marriage is fixed and you know, everything's hunky-dory for the next 20 years?
No, but at least for two days i'm hoping to bring my clients to at least what I call
Seeking the clarification point of view or the other part will be stabilizing their quarrels or the conflicts
Yeah, because in the weekly sessions what make a difference is in the weekly sessions
Let's say this week I see you know my couples and then from this week till next week
There'll be conflicts. Yeah, and so by the time I go to the following week I have to check in with them
Okay, what has happened this week and they'll spend about half an hour or most 45 minutes just to tell me about that conflict
Yeah, good point. Yeah, whereas yeah, if you have a six hour block
Right that you can kind of get through that part still a half hour to 45 minutes
But it's just like that one part and then you can get into kind of get go deep with them
Yeah, did you do any pre-marriage counseling? No, no, I didn't either. I didn't even know that was a thing
It is well for catholic people of the catholic faith. It's like a thing you do these like weekend retreats
And I remember my this is not a great example
Sorry, zach, but my brother went on one with his ex-wife and I just remember thinking that was kind of cool
Like that's a great idea in theory. Would you recommend that couples do that?
Like do like a pre-marriage counseling like where they kind of just it's I assume i've not done one but it's like kind of a
You go through some of your philosophical beliefs together before you get married
Definitely and in fact the international cycle how both of you fight does not just start on day one of your marriage
It actually started way before
Wow
Yeah
Because yeah, i'm thinking I mean again for for women in our 40s, you know, perhaps that should say all the bit
But I think for women that are unmarried in their 40s, not a bad idea, right?
Find your secure self go get counseled
But you know what I want to say that the gen z and the millennials today
They are very open to this and i've been seeing this group of couples in that generation
Coming forward to work on their relationships gen z's are way better than millennials as speaking as a millennial
Their gen z's are way better about that. They're so open. They all have therapists, right and then they all use them
Which is which is like something that's like they are willing to pay for therapy. Yeah fair
They see it as a form of self-care, which it is. Yeah, it absolutely is
Let's talk about sort of you know, the the older let's say the 50s aren't they the 45s and aboves?
Yeah, well, yeah, right. No exactly right. Yeah 40. Yeah, do you see a lot of them and do they have different types of?
conflicts
say with
in comparison to millennials
Okay, the problem is
Almost the same the same kind of conflicts, you know the way they fight the way they communicate the way they feel like hey
You don't love me or you don't see me
But the issues that spark off might be different. So for example for the gen maybe z of the millennials will say that hey
I don't like my boyfriend. I looking at another girl in the pub. All right, but whereas in the gen x it will be
Hey, I feel like you're putting your priority on your parents
On your children but not on me
And of course, there's this comparison like who is doing more in the marriage. Yeah
Well, let's talk about that for a second, right? So so okay, you know, they
They're wow. I can't remember what it what movie it was where it was like the two people. Oh, it was okay
This is like a little known movie. I realized it's called the story of us the story of us
Okay, right. Shout out this movie. I don't think i've seen it. I miss willis michelle pfeiffer are the couple
And they're having a fight. I want to say it's a story if it's not folks fact check me is cool
But they're having a fight and then in this fight like in the movie, right?
It's they're in bed and they're having a fight and it's like the his parents then come into the picture
And her parents meaning like in it's like a dream sequence, right?
So it's like you see their fighting style the parents and you see their fighting style
And then it then you see the couple fighting and you're like, ah, this is why they fight the way they do
Because you see the parents right and it's like that's why you fight like this and that's why you fight like this
Because they screaming each other and they ignore each other
And then this guy's screaming and she's ignoring, you know, and it's like that's how it is
How do you see the way that you were raised?
Informing the way that you enter a relationship
Definitely very important. So it depends how you were being raised
So for example, if you were raised in a family where peace is important
You know like let's not take out anything that will stir or perturb the relationships
All right
Now you will come into the relationship as what I call a redrawer. We have a term for that redrawer
Now it doesn't mean a redrawer means I I don't want to you know, talk about problems. It's just that
I see redrawer as or a avoidant technique as a coping mechanism to protect the relationship
Because I know that if I talk about it or if I engage in this fight with you
It's going to sour the whole relationship
Now on the other hand we have what we call the pursuer or what we call the anxious coping mechanism where
He or she learns that I need to fight
I need to beat full connection when I come to you looking very upset
You know talking about the issue not because it's about you
It's because about this relationship and how it's making me unhappy
And that's I want to tell you so that it won't repeat the second time
So you can see it's a tangle. I have a pursuer and have a redrawer. Yes
All right. So what we do a couple therapy is i'm not going to change the pursuer as a pursuer
I'm not going to change the redrawers a redraw
But rather can we make soften the pursuer?
In his or her dance and perhaps help to encourage the redrawer to come forward a little bit in this dance
Yeah, so that there's still that connection dang i'm seeing i'm i'm like a pursuer
I see it net like i'm definitely the pursuer like I just realized it
We talked about this before though we our partners are our opposite like you know
Like so yeah, your your husband and my husband are the opposite. We are the opposites
But yeah, that makes sense of the pursuer withdraw dynamic. Are there other common dynamics that you see generally?
It's always following a pursue and oh wow. Okay. So that's like a very correct
So what would happen then if you had like say two pursuers or two withdrawers? Is it just that?
And I don't know like let's say two withdrawers for example, but they just not talk about things
All right
Okay, generally we are still looking at a pursuer and redrawer
But when you see a redraw and redraw it could be the pursuer has become a tired pursuer
Oh, and the and the tire pursuer. Yeah, that's why you say has given up
No point talking to you
And I just don't want to talk to you anymore that become a redraw
Wow
I can understand it though
Yeah, because it's you know, like fools on deaf say is if you are constantly saying the same thing and it
Sound like a broken record
But sometimes it's also a mask pursuer
So pursuer is not the person who always like go yelling and shouting at the other partner pursuer
Cook is always the one the first person in the whole dance to say I am upset and this could be done by
I give you the silence treatment
Or I do something just to get your attention. Yeah, I see what you mean
So yeah, it's it's still pursuing. It just might appear as the silent treatment. Yeah, I get that I get that
So I still think i'm a pursuer, you know for the I think I may change my mind. I might be the
So we've definitely talked about reigniting marriages we've definitely talked about rebuilding connections
We have not technically talked about kind of restoring hope which is one of your other slogans
What message would you give to women there in their 40s?
And when I heard restoring hope that kind of made me think of some of my really close girlfriends
Who have kind of given up hope that they're going to find a partner or even if they have a partner that it will ever be better
They're just like, you know, this is my life now and this is how I live
What advice can you give to women in their 40s who are either not yet in a stable relationship?
Or are in one and have lost hope I would love to know leave this acronym ABC
So a is for acknowledge less acknowledge the pain the disappointment silver feet express the emotions
Because when you do that you come to a stage where you can have the emotional closure to say
Okay, I've forgiven about what has happened in the past
And this is where i'm able to see clarity and embrace how I have contributed
To the conflict. So for example in the pursue and withdrawal cycle you'll go like yes, I
Acknowledge that in the past. I keep yelling at the other person and when I yell I use her full words to get attention
But to reach that stage is not easy because it have you have to overcome guilt and shame just to embrace this part
So this is a hoping that when you go through a, you know
When you have the awareness of what's happening, you won't bring this into the next relationship. Yeah
B is what I call let's build the relationship with small gestures. It doesn't have to be a big grand deal
Small gestures like little things like, you know, let's just give each other a call or even five minutes a
A day to talk that's enough or sometimes, you know, you pass by a fruit store and say hey
I saw nice apples and my partner love apples
So just let's do that and that actually builds over time
Now c is what I call consult, especially when it comes to relationship
Not just like when we are sick. We are not feeling well. We see a doctor
If you feel like hey, i'm not at a good space be mentally or emotionally or is it because of my relationship?
See consult with a professional because i've seen many couples stay instead of seeking professional advice
They go to tiktok they go to youtube and find information and they start to forward this information to their partners
And that trigger even more escalation. Yeah
So I would say that you know the a b c a for let's acknowledge your emotions and how you have contributed to your previous
uh relationship
B is let's build the relationship with small gestures and c is consult a professional if need be
I love that third one that definitely is relevant in our professions as well, right?
It's like you can get all the diet and fitness information you want from tiktok
But I promise you you should talk to a professional definitely. Yeah
Well, so we have to wrap up here. Teresa. We've loved having you today
But we have to ask you the question we asked every single one of our guests, right? Which is what is your 40s formula?
What are a few pieces of advice that you can give to women in this decade relevant to what you do that can help them thrive?
You know what? I do recognize that women in their 40s at this time you have achieved many job, you know satisfaction
But I want to say that now all this job satisfaction is only for a moment temporary
Always put your relationship your loved ones or your marriage as a priority because they are the ones who will be going to journey with you
Ups and downs who will walk with you till the end of life
That's funny because that's just what our last guy said. Yeah, that is it's actually
Like perfect. Yes, if y'all are listening to our uh, podcast with adora, we have a very similar message and it's true
Right. It's like put your put your money where your relationships are. Yes, your job is only temporary
Thank you so much for coming in today. Teresa
You've given us so much to think about and so much that we can actionally do in our own relationships
And I think that's really powerful. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you
You know jasmine and amanda for this invitation. Thank you our pleasure
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for
t i e s formula.com
This is paul our editor
He's a 25 year old unmarried singaporean guy listening to the ramblings of 12 old ladies
and ramblings of 12 older women on everything from menopause to weightlifting to sex
So paul, what's your thoughts on today's conversation?
Couples therapy, I think it's pretty awesome
So personally, i'm a bit advocate for mental health and caring for that aspect of life. So
Maybe perhaps for the older folks out there going for therapy
You know, you guys might feel it's a bit more of a stigmatized connotation
But I think of it as something that's a bit more to do with um, well
Basically going to a mind spa and so going to relax, you know having myself gone through it
I think it's something that's good
And you should give it a try maybe sometime
And of course if any of you guys out there are in need for someone to talk to
Don't be afraid to take steps to seek help with a professional. So
Yay
Guys, you know how much we love coffee and if you want to show some love, you know, you can get us one just visit
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Bye
So
All right, thanks, thank you so much
Thank you so much. That was wonderful. I guess I we did have a little pause in there, but we'll just edit it together
I don't think we actually lost anything paul. I think it's just that we have to sew it up