1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,480 So what we do in couple therapy is I'm not going to change the pursuer as a pursuer 2 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:05,640 I'm not going to change a redraw as a redraw 3 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:13,560 But rather can we make soften the pursuer in his or her dance and perhaps help to encourage the redraw 4 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:20,280 Or to come forward a little bit in this dance. Yeah, so that there's still that connection dang. I'm seeing I'm I'm like a pursuer 5 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:23,760 I see it net like I'm definitely the pursuer like I just realized it 6 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:32,640 We talked about this before the wheat our partners are our opposite like it's like so yeah, your your husband my husband are 7 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:36,640 The opposite we're the opposite 8 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:52,440 Hey, hey and welcome to the 40s formula 9 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:57,920 You're going to place for insightful discussions on navigating the 40s and thriving in this transformative decade 10 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:05,560 We're your hosts Jasmine and Amanda two women that are passionate about exploring the challenges and adventures that come with turning 40 and what lies ahead 11 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:18,560 Theresa Pong is the founder and counseling director at the relationship room a 12 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:22,720 private practice that specializes in relationship and marriage counseling a 13 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:27,520 Registered counselor and clinical supervisor with the Singapore Association for counseling 14 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:36,120 She is also a certified emotionally focused couples therapist and was named one of Singapore's 40 over 40 inspiring women in 2023 15 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:42,360 Although she deals with a broad spectrum of concerns such as depression and conflict management 16 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:47,760 Her main area of expertise lies in aiding couples recover from affairs and infidelity 17 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:53,520 Over the past 14 years she has journeyed alongside many hurting individuals couples and families 18 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,040 Empowering them to turn disappointments to hope 19 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:03,680 Enabling them to build positive connections with other people and helping them to live their lives to the fullest every day 20 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:10,360 Theresa is happily married with one teenage daughter and spends her free time traveling reading and jogging 21 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:13,240 So no matter what you're striving for in your 40s 22 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:19,400 The likelihood is that you're doing it with someone a partner a spouse a longtime companion and navigating 23 00:02:19,640 --> 00:02:24,920 Relationships in this decade is really crucial to feeling your best our guest today is Theresa Pong 24 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:29,800 Registered counselor and founder of the relationship room whose slogan is restoring hope 25 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:36,680 Reigniting marriages and rebuilding connections. I honestly want to talk about all three of those today. So thank you for coming Theresa 26 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:38,080 Thank you for this invitation 27 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:45,000 Yeah, we're so happy to have you and if we're being honest, at least if I'm being honest the reigniting marriages piece feels so 28 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:47,560 relevant to women in this decade 29 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:51,960 Can you tell us about the common issues that you see that that women feel like they need to? 30 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:59,040 Reignite in their marriages and how you help people do that sure, you know Amanda and just me not look at the typical 31 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:01,560 Singaporean lady in her 40s today 32 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:05,320 I mean she is most likely to be holding some kind of responsibility 33 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:09,000 Or senior position in the company and if she's married 34 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:15,880 I mean she have also her priorities her kid most likely if I could guess could be preparing for the big exam for their life 35 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:18,200 PSLE or in secondary school 36 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:24,760 But the same time this lady also have other priorities maybe financial commitments and the other aspect is 37 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:31,960 She got to take care of her elderly parents. You know medical fees in Singapore could be very expensive 38 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:34,840 So with so much on her plate 39 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,920 Unfortunately in the observations that I see the marriage 40 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:41,560 Relationship will become the bad burner 41 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:47,560 So by the time she realizes that the mess something is happening to the marriage 42 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:53,880 It could be late. It could be accumulative years of pains and hurt and neglect 43 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:56,760 So by the time she realizes it 44 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:00,040 The marriage needs to be done 45 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:08,520 The marriage needs repair and it needs help and that's what we do at the relationship room to reunite the marriage 46 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:09,320 Yeah 47 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:15,240 And you know, what are some tips you give women in that exact situation right where it's like you because i've definitely had days like this 48 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:20,440 Right where it's like i've been working all day tending to the kids. We live with my husband's parents 49 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:22,520 So, you know, you know with the elderly 50 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:26,440 And then I get home and it's like I got nothing I got nothing left to give 51 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:31,480 You know, what's an actionable tip you can give women to kind of in those moments of like I can't even 52 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:34,680 Fathom talking to touching my partner like what? 53 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:37,640 How do we get past that always tell yourself that? 54 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:43,080 Give yourself as a priority because without any energy without any you know, like space for yourself 55 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:48,520 You can't give to the rest now one of the tips that I always share with my clients is 56 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:48,920 You know 57 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:54,360 They always say that I know I almost run from 6 a.m in the morning and by the time I go to bed is like 58 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:56,360 12 midnight or 11 p.m 59 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:03,320 But in between there are spaces for you to take that break even for let's say transport from office back to home 60 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:07,160 You could even rest during that time on the mrt or the public transport 61 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:12,440 And then so that when you reach home, you still have some energy left for your family 62 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:17,240 Yeah, I love I I follow an influencer. Okay, i'm not gonna say her name because she's much younger than me 63 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:21,720 She calls it pockets of peace. Yeah, and I think that's a really nice way of saying it 64 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:27,720 It's like even if it is an mrt ride. Yes, it could be a five-minute meditation. It could be definitely right? 65 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,080 So it could be a pocket of peace if you carve it out, correct? 66 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:36,120 Yeah, that's a really good tip. One of the things I quite like to do is actually with my husband is I 67 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:43,800 Like to pick him up in the car from the mrt station and that gives us maybe 15 minutes of just the two of us 68 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:46,520 Sitting in the car so he's got nowhere to run 69 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:51,560 And then I can you know talk to him maybe offload my day or whatever it is 70 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:55,640 But it's just that time without the kids. I know that no one else is going to be there 71 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,800 And you know, we can have this conversation about you know 72 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,880 What it is that needs to be done or you know how his day went or how my day went and 73 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:06,440 And I find that kind of helps to 74 00:06:06,840 --> 00:06:13,480 Give us a little bit of a I don't know recharge almost because otherwise you're always looking for when can I sit down? 75 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:17,640 Because I know for a fact if he came home by himself when he gets home 76 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:22,200 He wants to eat dinner and then it's like the tv comes on and then it's like then we're going to bed 77 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:26,760 And it's like when do you get the time to actually just sit and talk? You know, why this is so beautiful 78 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:30,680 You know, it's so intentional to just carve out that 15 minutes precious time 79 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:33,400 That's great tip 80 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:37,720 And I think you know when you just said like just 15 minutes or just mrt ride or just a car ride 81 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:40,520 I think you know in my work with people with x-rays 82 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:45,240 It's the same thing right they think it has to be an hour of dedicated gym time or it's nothing 83 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:51,000 No, it could be 15 minutes of walking and that's good enough. Yeah, you want one minute on the plank. Yes 84 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:57,480 Yes, exactly. So we can treat our relationships the same way like a small dose is better than none. Yeah 85 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,560 It's cumulative small gestures small gestures. I love that 86 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:04,840 You know and speaking of small gestures you mentioned in your bio that 87 00:07:04,840 --> 00:07:07,560 You were someone who suffered from a heart attack 88 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:13,400 You mentioned in your bio that you were someone who suffered from recurrent disappointments small and large 89 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:18,760 Right and that that's something that led you on to this career path. Can you tell us a bit more about how 90 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:24,280 You felt you were trapped in this cycle of kind of negativity disappointment and how you came through it 91 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:30,120 Sure, you know, it's like as an asian adult growing up in a traditional chinese family the 92 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:37,000 Image of what I call the success actually comes with three factors. For example, I mean the first one is your university 93 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,320 You know education, you know achievements 94 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:44,220 Your job your career, you know, you're expected to be joining a large corporation 95 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:51,000 And then there's this image of what a successful family is. You must have happy children and having a good lifestyle 96 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:56,040 So growing up I managed to achieve the first two I graduated with a degree 97 00:07:56,520 --> 00:08:00,600 I got a job. I would say with a well large corporation in singapore 98 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,160 But when it comes to relationship 99 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:09,320 I didn't know I didn't have the skills and I was in and out of many what I call toxic relationships that left me feeling 100 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:16,200 Very broken and every time when I come out of a broken relationship that makes me feel like I have just lost that part of 101 00:08:16,820 --> 00:08:17,720 self-esteem 102 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:24,940 So by the time I hit the 20s the mid 20s, I realized i'm actually experiencing symptoms of depression 103 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:26,360 Yeah 104 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:31,560 And also at that point of time. I realized that I didn't enjoy the job that i'm in 105 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:36,520 I mean, yes, it pays me well. It's a nice company, but I didn't enjoy the job 106 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:38,280 So of all this 107 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:45,720 Crashing in a friend actually, you know recommended me to try counseling now at that point of time counseling was something that's not 108 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:48,200 Spoken very often unlike now 109 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:55,480 So but that actually started me a seven-year journey of rediscovering myself and doing inner work to heal 110 00:08:55,480 --> 00:09:01,500 My you know the pain the hurts that I went through I rebuilt my self-esteem 111 00:09:01,560 --> 00:09:05,640 And by the end of the seven-year journey, I met my current husband 112 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:12,760 Yeah, but it was also through this seven-year journey I rediscovered myself what success really mean 113 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:18,600 It's not about no like earning big bucks or being working in a very prestigious company 114 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,200 But really doing something that you believe for and you enjoy 115 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:25,800 At that point so I actually went to further my studies in counseling 116 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:32,360 And this is also when I actually took a 60% pay cut to start my career 117 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:37,720 From ground zero that had me tough. Yeah, but this journey went very fast 118 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:41,800 I mean now i'm into my almost 15 years in this journey 119 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:44,600 So time flies, you know, it was the right move 120 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:47,320 But with the encouragement of my husband 121 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:48,920 Yeah 122 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:52,840 I heard someone say once and i'm going to be honest. I can't remember who said it but 123 00:09:53,940 --> 00:09:58,600 Expectation is almost the route to disappointment. So, you know if you're expecting something 124 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:03,160 You're very likely to be disappointed. Do you feel that? 125 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:11,880 people are always expecting something from their relationships or something from their partners which will constantly lead to disappointment and 126 00:10:12,680 --> 00:10:16,440 And is there anything that we can do to kind of help? 127 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:18,440 manage that sure 128 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:23,320 Amanda I think we need to let our listeners know that we don't just use the meat club because they're a sponsor of the show 129 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:27,800 They're a sponsor of the show because we love what they bring. Oh, it is so true jasmine 130 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:33,720 It's been over a year with the meat club and I can confidently say they have been cooking at home so much easier 131 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:40,440 Their grass-fed beef organic chicken and wild-caught seafood are the best quality you get in singapore and let's not forget 132 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:48,040 It's ethically sourced. 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The subscription model is perfect for busy families 137 00:11:11,560 --> 00:11:16,920 Just click set and forget plus you'll get up to 15 of your groceries with every subscription order 138 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:23,400 No last-minute dashes to the store the meat club really takes the taste of australia and new zealand right to your doorstep 139 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:29,000 Making healthy living easy and stress-free and because you're part of the 40s formula family use code 140 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:36,460 Tff 12 for 12 dollars off your first order with no minimum spend just visit the meat club.com 141 00:11:36,780 --> 00:11:44,220 Sg to subscribe now and follow them on instagram at at the meat club sg for exclusive content 142 00:11:44,460 --> 00:11:51,580 Cooking tips and special offers the meat club rewarding families like yours with premium quality every single time 143 00:11:52,060 --> 00:11:54,060 Now back to the chat 144 00:11:54,060 --> 00:11:58,300 I think the most important thing that I want to highlight here is whose 145 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:05,500 expectations a lot of time these expectations come from the society our parents our friends because we so fear 146 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,040 judgment and criticisms 147 00:12:08,300 --> 00:12:15,660 But if the expectations is coming from us and especially when we know that this expectation is coming from what I call a very secure 148 00:12:16,460 --> 00:12:18,460 Self that we know what we want 149 00:12:18,860 --> 00:12:20,860 We won't fall into disappointment 150 00:12:20,860 --> 00:12:26,140 Yeah, and the secure self. I think that is something that women in their 40s need to hear 151 00:12:26,780 --> 00:12:33,180 Right is that it is very hard to be depressed disappointed anxious if you're truly secure in yourself 152 00:12:33,420 --> 00:12:37,740 Yeah, but it takes work. You don't emerge from your 30s suddenly secure 153 00:12:39,100 --> 00:12:41,100 After two decades of insecurity 154 00:12:41,660 --> 00:12:45,180 Women in 50s and 60s still feeling very insecure. Yes 155 00:12:45,180 --> 00:12:50,860 Yeah, how do you how do you get women to find that secure self? I can't say get how do you encourage women? 156 00:12:51,100 --> 00:12:56,380 To look for a more secure sense of self. I work with many individuals, especially individuals who have 157 00:12:57,340 --> 00:13:03,980 Setbacks from dating relationships. And so by the time they come to see me they were at their lowest point in their life 158 00:13:04,380 --> 00:13:09,440 So what I do is actually let's be brave. Let's face your vulnerabilities 159 00:13:10,300 --> 00:13:12,300 Let's face what you don't want to see 160 00:13:12,300 --> 00:13:17,660 And feel it and then we will work together how we can change that narrative 161 00:13:18,140 --> 00:13:21,260 So that it builds you and make you feel more secure 162 00:13:22,060 --> 00:13:27,980 So for example, all right, I have a client who share with me that you know, to reason i'm very unlucky 163 00:13:28,060 --> 00:13:31,260 I'm very unfortunate because i'm born in a 164 00:13:31,820 --> 00:13:37,660 Family where my father passed away when I was very young I was being no like put from family to family 165 00:13:37,660 --> 00:13:42,300 So she carried this narrative that i'm just no bad luck 166 00:13:42,940 --> 00:13:46,060 And so after working a few sessions, she actually 167 00:13:46,940 --> 00:13:54,780 Shifter in her narrative. She said that i'm not so unfortunate because even if my father passed away at my age of 12 years old 168 00:13:55,260 --> 00:13:59,100 I spent a good solid 12 years with him 169 00:14:00,540 --> 00:14:06,380 Yeah, that's what we are looking for little vitreous and little success would help to change the narrative 170 00:14:06,380 --> 00:14:12,780 Yeah, and that's you know, the reframing bit I think is so important because that as you tell that tale, right? 171 00:14:12,860 --> 00:14:16,540 It's heartbreaking you think of a 12 year old girl losing her father. It's about the worst thing you could think of 172 00:14:17,260 --> 00:14:23,260 But like you said 12 years with a father right versus zero versus five. I mean, this is at least something so I think 173 00:14:23,820 --> 00:14:31,100 Anytime we're facing this kind of persistent narrative of negativity and we all tell ourselves these stories right that are damaging to our self-image 174 00:14:31,500 --> 00:14:34,620 You must find a way to reframe it or it will haunt you forever 175 00:14:34,620 --> 00:14:39,020 But before we go into the reframing part, which I I would say that yes 176 00:14:39,020 --> 00:14:43,580 No, we have to do the reframing but we also have to go through the emotional closure 177 00:14:43,820 --> 00:14:48,380 That is we work through our emotions. We find healing we accept what has happened 178 00:14:48,860 --> 00:14:50,860 And that's where the reframing will comes in 179 00:14:51,260 --> 00:14:56,620 Have you had a client really struggle with closure on some issue like where like she just can't face it? Yes 180 00:14:56,860 --> 00:14:59,120 Especially when it comes to unforgiveness 181 00:14:59,740 --> 00:15:04,060 You know example. Yeah, so for example, I I remember a few years ago 182 00:15:04,060 --> 00:15:08,860 Um, I was when I was actually working in the community as a counselor 183 00:15:09,420 --> 00:15:13,580 So that's this lady, you know, she is actually a cleaner. She came to see me 184 00:15:13,820 --> 00:15:19,900 She said that you know the company who hired her her decided to ask her to go because she's not doing a great job 185 00:15:20,380 --> 00:15:26,460 And she felt so upset with the person who asked her to go and she couldn't forgive it took us 186 00:15:27,020 --> 00:15:29,580 You know a lot of months to work with her 187 00:15:29,580 --> 00:15:35,420 Until one day she decided that hey, you know, i'm not going to get this feeling to you know, eat me up 188 00:15:35,740 --> 00:15:37,500 I want to move on 189 00:15:37,500 --> 00:15:44,060 Yeah, but she had to decide it. Yes, correct. Yeah, it's also because at that point of time the circumstances have changed 190 00:15:44,780 --> 00:15:47,980 She got another job. So maybe it helps her in that process 191 00:15:48,380 --> 00:15:49,260 Yeah 192 00:15:49,260 --> 00:15:52,700 But it sounds like when something takes such a big hit to your sense of identity, right? 193 00:15:52,700 --> 00:15:56,060 Like she obviously felt passionately about her her job. Yeah 194 00:15:56,060 --> 00:16:00,700 Yeah, it was like she couldn't take a hit that was like related to that bit of her identity 195 00:16:01,260 --> 00:16:02,940 Oh, man 196 00:16:02,940 --> 00:16:04,140 you um 197 00:16:04,140 --> 00:16:09,980 You spoke about some of the things that um women tend to deal with when it comes to the 40s 198 00:16:10,460 --> 00:16:12,860 What issues do you see sort of from? 199 00:16:13,580 --> 00:16:16,860 let's say the husband's side that tend to 200 00:16:17,980 --> 00:16:21,820 Maybe cause um an imbalance in a relationship 201 00:16:21,820 --> 00:16:26,460 So is there anything that comes up again and again like from the husband's viewpoint? 202 00:16:27,740 --> 00:16:30,700 Not about his wife, but you know about his wife 203 00:16:32,380 --> 00:16:37,260 Exactly what the women in the 40s face the men in the 40s will also face the same 204 00:16:37,500 --> 00:16:44,320 But they are actually having even more pressure because especially in asian context the men in the 40s are expected to be successful 205 00:16:44,940 --> 00:16:46,940 To be the main bread winner 206 00:16:46,940 --> 00:16:53,260 Even if my spouse like lost a job or decided to be a stay at home mom. I am expected to actually go through all this 207 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:58,060 Pressures or stress at work just to make sure that that's bread on the table 208 00:16:58,380 --> 00:17:06,620 Now men in this age also shares with me that what they're struggling with is whether can they find somebody especially the spouse? 209 00:17:07,020 --> 00:17:09,020 understand what they go through 210 00:17:09,260 --> 00:17:11,260 What they're experiencing is when? 211 00:17:11,820 --> 00:17:13,820 Things happen, you know at home 212 00:17:13,820 --> 00:17:20,620 The wife or the spouse will actually put a focus on the children first children will come first husband comes second 213 00:17:21,420 --> 00:17:24,720 And a lot of times they felt neglected in the relationships 214 00:17:25,660 --> 00:17:27,660 I heard somewhere that 215 00:17:28,380 --> 00:17:33,340 Men want to be admired and women want to be adored and I felt that was so 216 00:17:34,120 --> 00:17:39,580 Pertinent because I kind of feel like the men, you know, like they might feel i'm doing all of this for my family 217 00:17:39,580 --> 00:17:44,380 And they want their wives to see that what they're doing is their way of I guess showing love 218 00:17:44,620 --> 00:17:48,940 You know that this i'm doing for you, even if it is staying late at work 219 00:17:49,820 --> 00:17:55,340 Attachment need they want to be acknowledged. Yeah, they want to know that I put in so much effort 220 00:17:55,500 --> 00:18:01,180 Please see what i'm doing for the family. Yeah, so how much of your attachment style? 221 00:18:01,740 --> 00:18:03,740 I guess is related to 222 00:18:04,460 --> 00:18:07,100 the kind of relationship that you're in and 223 00:18:07,100 --> 00:18:12,380 And is there is there does there tend to be a mismatch sometimes and how can you work on that? 224 00:18:13,260 --> 00:18:14,380 right 225 00:18:14,380 --> 00:18:19,900 Each of us have different needs. All right, some of us want to feel loved some of us want to feel adored 226 00:18:20,940 --> 00:18:27,580 Some of us want to feel like hey, we are appreciated. We are this person who is able to provide for the family 227 00:18:28,300 --> 00:18:36,220 Whatever the needs is the most important here is how can we get the couples to see each other needs and respond to them? 228 00:18:36,220 --> 00:18:41,260 A lot of times, you know, it's like the conflicts that they bring to the counseling room is 229 00:18:41,980 --> 00:18:44,780 They feel like are we doing a keeping score here? 230 00:18:44,860 --> 00:18:49,740 So for example the husband say okay, you know, I work uh until 9 pm and the wife say, you know 231 00:18:49,820 --> 00:18:53,900 It's like I work also until 9 pm. So we have this comparison 232 00:18:54,300 --> 00:18:55,980 And that is how 233 00:18:55,980 --> 00:18:57,820 it created a 234 00:18:57,820 --> 00:19:03,260 War between both of them and they are not able to connect and when there's no connection 235 00:19:03,260 --> 00:19:06,060 This is when the relationship will spiral 236 00:19:06,780 --> 00:19:12,460 And how do you like so I know that on your website you always talk about vulnerability and connection, correct? 237 00:19:12,620 --> 00:19:17,820 Those are the two kind of building blocks of relationships when you have this kind of tet a tet right where it's like 238 00:19:17,980 --> 00:19:22,860 I work till 9 I work till 9 or I work till 9. Well, i'm home all day with the kids, right? 239 00:19:24,220 --> 00:19:26,220 I slept for six hours 240 00:19:26,220 --> 00:19:31,580 Four and a half because I was up with the baby or whatever, you know, how do you help couples get past that word? 241 00:19:31,580 --> 00:19:34,380 Just sure is that constant keeping score? All right 242 00:19:34,380 --> 00:19:37,260 I mean, this is a very good question because I got asked this many times 243 00:19:37,260 --> 00:19:40,620 Yeah, because I'm sure it happens it happens in my relationship for sure. That's definitely 244 00:19:43,180 --> 00:19:45,180 First of all 245 00:19:45,180 --> 00:19:47,180 We connect on vulnerability 246 00:19:48,060 --> 00:19:50,560 So whenever we are able to share vulnerability 247 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:57,200 We connect now having said that vulnerability is not about telling each other's your life history, right? 248 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:02,800 But it's more of can we focus on our emotions and our experiences? 249 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:07,920 So for example, let me just give you an example where I know both the partners are working until 9 pm 250 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:12,800 Instead of focusing on the context which is like hey, you know, I work until 9 pm. I work until 10 pm 251 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:14,800 Then you have this fight 252 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:19,520 Perhaps one of them who can say that you know, I feel so tired. I've been spending long hours 253 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:21,520 And I don't like it 254 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,120 It's just very simple, you know experience and emotions 255 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:32,640 And that create you know, like a connection and especially if their partner can validate and say yeah 256 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:36,320 I get it, you know, you work whole day. You don't get to see the children 257 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:41,680 You know, you say you feel like it's taken so much of you away from the family 258 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:48,480 And that's the start of the connection. Yeah, it's like unpack the complaint correct. What's the emotion? 259 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,280 So a lot of times in the counseling session 260 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:59,520 When I hear contents like comparison, I try to hear what is the pain? What's the need behind this comparison? 261 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:04,240 Yeah, and that I think that's something we can all remember because I I know that I tend to you know 262 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:07,600 When my because my partner I it's it's not often work related because we work together 263 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:10,080 So that doesn't really come up a lot 264 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:16,560 But it is a lot of like yeah time kind of with the kids exactly who's doing what for the kids, right? 265 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,520 And I'm always I'm always feeling like I'm the one doing more for the kids 266 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:22,640 But he's like but I provide you know, it's like we have this whole back and forth 267 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:28,800 So I think just pause here. I just wanted to say something, you know that conversation that I demonstrated just now 268 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:33,600 It'll be good if you both of you can speak during the 15 minutes in the car or in the kitchen 269 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:40,160 But I also noticed in my practices that some of these conversations take place in the office pantry 270 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:46,400 With another colleague and that's how it gets started off with infidelity or extra marital affair 271 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:49,360 Because we all connect on vulnerability 272 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:55,120 Yeah, so I also want to encourage you know, take the taking this opportunity to encourage couples 273 00:21:55,520 --> 00:22:00,800 Let's draw boundaries and let's protect our marriage. I love that. I love that. I have always okay 274 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:02,800 I don't know if i'm just like a Pollyanna 275 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:05,920 And again because my work situation is so different because we work together 276 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:10,580 But in a business that we own right so it's just the two of us. I always am uncomfortable 277 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,400 By this term work wife work husband. Oh, that's my work wife 278 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:20,160 And it's like if my husband had a work wife, you better bet i'd have an issue with that. That's not okay 279 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:26,480 Yeah, you know and even if even if he had a work husband meaning like a male colleague that he felt comfortable confiding in 280 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,840 It's like it's almost like you should confide in me. Yeah, because it's the emotional 281 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:34,400 It's the emotional connection right and I feel like it's gonna sound all right 282 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:42,640 if I feel like is that more cheating rather than the the physical side because it feels like that connection should be between you two 283 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:48,800 As your husband and wife that's something that you should have as opposed to you know, being able to open up and and 284 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:54,320 And say your sort of inner most secrets to someone else 285 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:59,040 I mean it's different, you know if they're just talking to I don't know a guy friend or something. Yeah, then that's it 286 00:22:59,120 --> 00:23:00,000 Yeah 287 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:06,000 The base relationship is friend. Yeah, but like if you're taking a work colleague aside and giving him your deepest heart and soul 288 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:07,440 That feels weird to me 289 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:07,840 Yeah 290 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:14,720 And that's dangerous because the more connected you are with this person outside the marriage the more you're going to get disconnected in your own marriage 291 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,800 Yeah, I hear that I hear that so much and I think you know 292 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:23,840 What's your opinion on this Teresa? It's like we were talking about like we're busy right? We got kids 293 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,760 This is the other there's only so much to give. Yeah, and if you're giving 294 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:33,200 Any element of that emotional energy to another person you have even less to give to your partner 295 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:37,360 Tracy you mentioned infidelity now in a situation where? 296 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:43,760 Say there is infidelity. Is there a way of coming back from that? 297 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,760 for a husband and wife to be able to I guess we 298 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,920 rekindle their marriage or just you know be 299 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:56,480 Back in a maybe a better place than they were before. Is there a way of doing that? 300 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,920 All right. First of all, we have to determine what kind of infidelity is it? 301 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,640 So for example infidelity can be in a form of just one night stands or maybe like 302 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:12,000 Checking out for those sleazy massages or maybe pornography now that will come under a umbrella 303 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,080 We call sexual addiction 304 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:19,600 So that's easier to deal with because what we know is most of our spouses who go for this kind of uh, 305 00:24:19,980 --> 00:24:23,940 Infidelity is just going for that process that euphoria or the dopamine 306 00:24:23,940 --> 00:24:25,620 Uh 307 00:24:25,620 --> 00:24:32,020 Search that's all and then we just need to find how can we help them to manage to find a healthy coping mechanism? 308 00:24:32,500 --> 00:24:40,040 That's easier to work with but what's harder to work with is what I call the extra marital affair where there is a connection 309 00:24:40,900 --> 00:24:44,260 Now as I mentioned just now when there's a connection with someone outside 310 00:24:44,580 --> 00:24:50,260 We need to know how long this connection is if anything that's around maybe a year or less 311 00:24:50,260 --> 00:24:54,740 Yes, it's easier to work with but anything more than a year of connection 312 00:24:55,220 --> 00:24:59,060 The challenge is here. So I will always tell my couples that you know 313 00:24:59,780 --> 00:25:03,300 Don't see couple counseling at this stage as trying to fix your marriage 314 00:25:03,460 --> 00:25:09,700 But rather let's use the marriage counseling that journey just to seek clarity to find out 315 00:25:09,700 --> 00:25:12,180 How did both of you come to this stage? 316 00:25:12,820 --> 00:25:19,540 And then both of you decide whether is this marriage for both of you and if both of you decide that yes it is for us 317 00:25:19,540 --> 00:25:20,180 Yes 318 00:25:20,180 --> 00:25:26,500 Then we will move on to the next stage where we will work and see how we can restructure the interaction between the both of you 319 00:25:26,820 --> 00:25:28,820 to strengthen and build the marriage 320 00:25:29,540 --> 00:25:31,540 but a lot of times sometimes they'll feel like 321 00:25:32,260 --> 00:25:35,540 I'm sorry. I don't think my heart is here anymore in this marriage 322 00:25:35,860 --> 00:25:41,460 Then we this is a time where I will have to work with the couples to grieve over the loss of this marriage 323 00:25:42,260 --> 00:25:44,420 Yeah, and is that common? 324 00:25:44,420 --> 00:25:49,460 Yes, it is common, but I would say that you know, let's not give up hope 325 00:25:49,940 --> 00:25:57,060 As long as both of you are willing to come and spend time, you know on working on this marriage going for couple therapy 326 00:25:57,380 --> 00:26:00,420 You know, it's like it is still worth it to fight for your marriage 327 00:26:01,060 --> 00:26:05,060 Yeah, and would you say and again, I'm sure every practice is different just like every couple is different 328 00:26:05,060 --> 00:26:08,500 Yes, but when you when when a couple does come to you for counseling 329 00:26:09,140 --> 00:26:12,900 The outcomes would you say more so they stay together? 330 00:26:12,900 --> 00:26:16,660 More so they stay together after infidelity or more so they don't 331 00:26:17,300 --> 00:26:25,460 Okay, generally because I use this framework called the emotionally focused couples therapy now research has said that couples who have gone through this 332 00:26:26,260 --> 00:26:27,760 therapy 333 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,560 75 percent of the couples have actually moved from distress 334 00:26:32,340 --> 00:26:36,740 To recovery. Oh wow 75 percent. That's wonderful big number 335 00:26:38,260 --> 00:26:41,220 Yeah, but they haven't said that there's still a 25 percent sure 336 00:26:41,220 --> 00:26:48,740 Yeah, that's still one in four. So it's not small. Correct. So when couples come I will always always go for the 75 percent 337 00:26:49,300 --> 00:26:54,100 Until we reach a stage and say that hey, this is not for us, Teresa and I respect the decision 338 00:26:55,060 --> 00:26:57,060 Yeah, and is there one 339 00:26:57,220 --> 00:26:59,220 partner more than the other partner 340 00:27:00,180 --> 00:27:02,180 Who sort of will say? 341 00:27:02,820 --> 00:27:06,100 This is not working. Like for example, let's say it's an extramarital affair 342 00:27:06,660 --> 00:27:08,660 and let's say 343 00:27:08,740 --> 00:27:10,420 one of the 344 00:27:10,420 --> 00:27:14,740 The spouse was in a long term relationship with somebody else 345 00:27:15,060 --> 00:27:22,020 Is it usually the person who was in the or the usually the person who was having the affair or is it usually the person who? 346 00:27:23,060 --> 00:27:25,060 in the other person 347 00:27:25,460 --> 00:27:30,580 Um, generally I would say that the one or what I call the injured partner here 348 00:27:30,580 --> 00:27:34,100 Yeah, all right the injured partner still want to fight for the relationship 349 00:27:34,420 --> 00:27:38,980 It is what I call the offending partner, especially if this offending partner has been in that 350 00:27:38,980 --> 00:27:41,560 extramarital relationship for long 351 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:44,760 He or she would most likely want to 352 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:52,200 Really reconsider the marriage and a lot of times they do think about whether do I still want to stay in this marriage? 353 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,120 Is it almost like a pros and cons as to who is going to be the better 354 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,560 Long-term partner, I guess, you know, like is it my 355 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:01,320 my 356 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,040 Husband or wife that i've been with for I don't know 10 years 357 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:10,040 Um versus this new boyfriend or girlfriend that i've been with for you know, two years, right? 358 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,800 So it's a lot of times it's all back to this attachment need 359 00:28:14,120 --> 00:28:19,640 So for example, the offending partner will say that you know in the other relationship that person knows me well 360 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:26,200 That person, you know journeys with me the ups and downs hers my in my own relationship my own marriage 361 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,080 My own spouse doesn't seem to understand me 362 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,200 Yeah, doesn't seem to see where i'm coming from 363 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:33,160 Yeah 364 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:38,360 Even if it was like that from the start, you know, like, you know before they had kids before they got into this 365 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:45,880 Um, I guess situation right so it it could be that they then let's say they leave their current partner 366 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,720 They decide to have a full-time relationship with the other person 367 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:55,640 Let's say they end up having kids and then they fall would they would it be likely that they may fall back into the same cycle of 368 00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:00,120 Because of their attachment style they fall back into the same herd again. Yeah 369 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,120 Yeah, it's possible 370 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:08,760 Have you said that I was a wise couple who decided to date or get into a relationship after a breakout or a divorce 371 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:10,920 I would tell them please take time 372 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:12,520 Please take time 373 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:18,040 You know like let's reflect what has happened in your previous relationship before jumping into another relationship 374 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,120 Yeah, because we don't want the cycle to happen again. Yeah, and that is good advice 375 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,560 You know, it brings it back to that that you know finding your secure self 376 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,800 It's like you need to know who you are before you get into another relationship, you know 377 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,120 Because otherwise mistakes will repeat themselves, right? 378 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,320 But I want to answer back to jasmine's question now 379 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:41,960 We also see another group the of the injured partner after a few sessions after hearing what's happening in the marriage 380 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:47,560 He or she will also make the decision say hey enough is enough. I don't think I want this relationship 381 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,200 I don't want to live in a relationship filled with so much 382 00:29:50,820 --> 00:29:52,600 Betrayal lies 383 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,760 I just want to protect myself and maybe the kids. Yeah, I mean he and she would say that 384 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,440 I want to live this marriage and I respect that as well 385 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:07,000 And I mean for those listening who have never been to therapy never been to counseling like don't even don't even really understand 386 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:12,280 What goes on there? Right? It's the big unknown. Yeah, what is the effectiveness of couples counseling? 387 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:18,360 How you know like how many sessions would they do like like what is it walk us through a typical couples counseling? 388 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,160 Journey because yeah, I think a lot of folks don't even know 389 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:25,020 I mean like I mean i'm more than happy to share. I mean as I share the statistics 390 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:32,120 We're looking at success rate of about 75 percent, but this 75 percent takes time to be there 391 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,440 So generally it's not one and done 392 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,480 We walk in with Teresa for an hour and we're better 393 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,520 No, all right. So generally this 394 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:47,640 Journey if i'm looking at per session about 16 minutes to 75 minutes and I see my couples once in a week 395 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:52,840 You will take anywhere between eight sessions to 20 sessions or even more 396 00:30:53,380 --> 00:30:59,400 Depending on the complexity. So when I talk about complexity, I mean we are all human beings each of us is unique 397 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:01,400 We are not like a machine or prototype 398 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:03,480 time you see 399 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,620 So this complexity could be are we dealing with infidelity? 400 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,520 That itself is what I call a rapture in the relationship 401 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:16,280 So I need time to go there just to stabilize the emotions and to repair the rapture 402 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:17,080 You know 403 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:21,480 And that also depends on whether are there any past hurt or injuries? 404 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,780 All right that you can't let go of any unforgiveness 405 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:30,920 Other factors will also include let's say childhood experiences that shape 406 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:37,820 You know who you are a past dating experiences and sometimes unknowingly we bring this emotional baggages 407 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:44,200 Into the sessions. So I have seen couples from six months all the way to two years 408 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:51,160 Wow, just to bring them to a stage where i'm just not just looking at stabilizing, you know the quarrels or the conflicts 409 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,240 But bringing them to a stage where they can be vulnerable to share the yearnings 410 00:31:55,560 --> 00:32:01,000 The fear with each other and that's where the connection comes in. Yeah, and that takes time. You're right 411 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,160 There is time six months to two years 412 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:03,880 Yeah 413 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:08,920 And I think you know one of the issues that people have with coming to counseling right is that they're okay 414 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:14,680 So six months to two years that that sounds reasonable to like repair a deep, you know, kind of a deep cut 415 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:20,040 But like people like well, i'm busy i'm working like how can I possibly squeeze in? 416 00:32:20,740 --> 00:32:23,960 Counseling amid all the other things that I have to do. So how do you address that? 417 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,960 Yeah, I mean like let's look at it. We have three people's schedule to manage 418 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,520 My schedule and the two partners 419 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,680 Yeah, so this is where uh at the relationship room 420 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:42,280 We actually offer a two-day intensive marriage intensive where I sit with them for at least six hours a day 421 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:49,800 Yes, but in this two days the work that we do is equivalent to about 10 to 15 422 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:52,840 In the I mean like per weekly sessions 423 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:58,200 So whatever we do in about no three to four months is being actually 424 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,360 Being shortened to two days. Wow. Yeah, that is intensive 425 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:06,520 Yeah, and that's intensive, but it doesn't mean that after two days we have this job 426 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:10,280 I was just about to ask is it is there like a success rate for like an intensive two days? 427 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:14,120 Does that mean what your marriage is fixed and you know, everything's hunky-dory for the next 20 years? 428 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:19,000 No, but at least for two days i'm hoping to bring my clients to at least what I call 429 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:26,520 Seeking the clarification point of view or the other part will be stabilizing their quarrels or the conflicts 430 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:31,560 Yeah, because in the weekly sessions what make a difference is in the weekly sessions 431 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:36,360 Let's say this week I see you know my couples and then from this week till next week 432 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:42,440 There'll be conflicts. Yeah, and so by the time I go to the following week I have to check in with them 433 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:48,760 Okay, what has happened this week and they'll spend about half an hour or most 45 minutes just to tell me about that conflict 434 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,280 Yeah, good point. Yeah, whereas yeah, if you have a six hour block 435 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:56,440 Right that you can kind of get through that part still a half hour to 45 minutes 436 00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:00,200 But it's just like that one part and then you can get into kind of get go deep with them 437 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:05,320 Yeah, did you do any pre-marriage counseling? No, no, I didn't either. I didn't even know that was a thing 438 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:10,920 It is well for catholic people of the catholic faith. It's like a thing you do these like weekend retreats 439 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,160 And I remember my this is not a great example 440 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:17,800 Sorry, zach, but my brother went on one with his ex-wife and I just remember thinking that was kind of cool 441 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,320 Like that's a great idea in theory. Would you recommend that couples do that? 442 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:27,800 Like do like a pre-marriage counseling like where they kind of just it's I assume i've not done one but it's like kind of a 443 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:32,280 You go through some of your philosophical beliefs together before you get married 444 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:39,240 Definitely and in fact the international cycle how both of you fight does not just start on day one of your marriage 445 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,320 It actually started way before 446 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:42,680 Wow 447 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:43,880 Yeah 448 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:48,120 Because yeah, i'm thinking I mean again for for women in our 40s, you know, perhaps that should say all the bit 449 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,720 But I think for women that are unmarried in their 40s, not a bad idea, right? 450 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:53,960 Find your secure self go get counseled 451 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,880 But you know what I want to say that the gen z and the millennials today 452 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:02,860 They are very open to this and i've been seeing this group of couples in that generation 453 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:08,200 Coming forward to work on their relationships gen z's are way better than millennials as speaking as a millennial 454 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:13,720 Their gen z's are way better about that. They're so open. They all have therapists, right and then they all use them 455 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:18,920 Which is which is like something that's like they are willing to pay for therapy. Yeah fair 456 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,600 They see it as a form of self-care, which it is. Yeah, it absolutely is 457 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:27,640 Let's talk about sort of you know, the the older let's say the 50s aren't they the 45s and aboves? 458 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:34,120 Yeah, well, yeah, right. No exactly right. Yeah 40. Yeah, do you see a lot of them and do they have different types of? 459 00:35:34,660 --> 00:35:35,880 conflicts 460 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:37,320 say with 461 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,320 in comparison to millennials 462 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:41,480 Okay, the problem is 463 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:46,920 Almost the same the same kind of conflicts, you know the way they fight the way they communicate the way they feel like hey 464 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,000 You don't love me or you don't see me 465 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:56,040 But the issues that spark off might be different. So for example for the gen maybe z of the millennials will say that hey 466 00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:02,040 I don't like my boyfriend. I looking at another girl in the pub. All right, but whereas in the gen x it will be 467 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,240 Hey, I feel like you're putting your priority on your parents 468 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,040 On your children but not on me 469 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:12,120 And of course, there's this comparison like who is doing more in the marriage. Yeah 470 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:16,440 Well, let's talk about that for a second, right? So so okay, you know, they 471 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:22,520 They're wow. I can't remember what it what movie it was where it was like the two people. Oh, it was okay 472 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,640 This is like a little known movie. I realized it's called the story of us the story of us 473 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:30,600 Okay, right. Shout out this movie. I don't think i've seen it. I miss willis michelle pfeiffer are the couple 474 00:36:31,240 --> 00:36:34,520 And they're having a fight. I want to say it's a story if it's not folks fact check me is cool 475 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:38,520 But they're having a fight and then in this fight like in the movie, right? 476 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:43,960 It's they're in bed and they're having a fight and it's like the his parents then come into the picture 477 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:47,960 And her parents meaning like in it's like a dream sequence, right? 478 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,720 So it's like you see their fighting style the parents and you see their fighting style 479 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:57,240 And then it then you see the couple fighting and you're like, ah, this is why they fight the way they do 480 00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:01,400 Because you see the parents right and it's like that's why you fight like this and that's why you fight like this 481 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:03,560 Because they screaming each other and they ignore each other 482 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:07,640 And then this guy's screaming and she's ignoring, you know, and it's like that's how it is 483 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,160 How do you see the way that you were raised? 484 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,300 Informing the way that you enter a relationship 485 00:37:15,100 --> 00:37:19,020 Definitely very important. So it depends how you were being raised 486 00:37:19,100 --> 00:37:23,100 So for example, if you were raised in a family where peace is important 487 00:37:23,820 --> 00:37:27,900 You know like let's not take out anything that will stir or perturb the relationships 488 00:37:27,980 --> 00:37:28,700 All right 489 00:37:28,700 --> 00:37:33,980 Now you will come into the relationship as what I call a redrawer. We have a term for that redrawer 490 00:37:34,380 --> 00:37:39,180 Now it doesn't mean a redrawer means I I don't want to you know, talk about problems. It's just that 491 00:37:39,180 --> 00:37:46,140 I see redrawer as or a avoidant technique as a coping mechanism to protect the relationship 492 00:37:46,380 --> 00:37:50,220 Because I know that if I talk about it or if I engage in this fight with you 493 00:37:51,340 --> 00:37:54,140 It's going to sour the whole relationship 494 00:37:54,780 --> 00:38:01,180 Now on the other hand we have what we call the pursuer or what we call the anxious coping mechanism where 495 00:38:01,580 --> 00:38:03,500 He or she learns that I need to fight 496 00:38:03,500 --> 00:38:07,660 I need to beat full connection when I come to you looking very upset 497 00:38:07,660 --> 00:38:10,620 You know talking about the issue not because it's about you 498 00:38:11,020 --> 00:38:14,700 It's because about this relationship and how it's making me unhappy 499 00:38:15,420 --> 00:38:19,020 And that's I want to tell you so that it won't repeat the second time 500 00:38:19,580 --> 00:38:23,820 So you can see it's a tangle. I have a pursuer and have a redrawer. Yes 501 00:38:24,540 --> 00:38:28,540 All right. So what we do a couple therapy is i'm not going to change the pursuer as a pursuer 502 00:38:28,620 --> 00:38:30,620 I'm not going to change the redrawers a redraw 503 00:38:30,940 --> 00:38:34,060 But rather can we make soften the pursuer? 504 00:38:34,060 --> 00:38:41,100 In his or her dance and perhaps help to encourage the redrawer to come forward a little bit in this dance 505 00:38:41,260 --> 00:38:45,260 Yeah, so that there's still that connection dang i'm seeing i'm i'm like a pursuer 506 00:38:45,340 --> 00:38:48,620 I see it net like i'm definitely the pursuer like I just realized it 507 00:38:51,580 --> 00:38:55,500 We talked about this before though we our partners are our opposite like you know 508 00:38:55,500 --> 00:38:59,340 Like so yeah, your your husband and my husband are the opposite. We are the opposites 509 00:38:59,340 --> 00:39:05,260 But yeah, that makes sense of the pursuer withdraw dynamic. Are there other common dynamics that you see generally? 510 00:39:05,340 --> 00:39:09,500 It's always following a pursue and oh wow. Okay. So that's like a very correct 511 00:39:09,580 --> 00:39:14,380 So what would happen then if you had like say two pursuers or two withdrawers? Is it just that? 512 00:39:15,180 --> 00:39:19,340 And I don't know like let's say two withdrawers for example, but they just not talk about things 513 00:39:19,660 --> 00:39:20,300 All right 514 00:39:20,300 --> 00:39:23,580 Okay, generally we are still looking at a pursuer and redrawer 515 00:39:23,660 --> 00:39:28,460 But when you see a redraw and redraw it could be the pursuer has become a tired pursuer 516 00:39:28,460 --> 00:39:32,940 Oh, and the and the tire pursuer. Yeah, that's why you say has given up 517 00:39:33,420 --> 00:39:35,420 No point talking to you 518 00:39:35,420 --> 00:39:38,460 And I just don't want to talk to you anymore that become a redraw 519 00:39:39,500 --> 00:39:40,700 Wow 520 00:39:40,700 --> 00:39:42,220 I can understand it though 521 00:39:42,220 --> 00:39:47,180 Yeah, because it's you know, like fools on deaf say is if you are constantly saying the same thing and it 522 00:39:47,580 --> 00:39:49,580 Sound like a broken record 523 00:39:49,660 --> 00:39:52,720 But sometimes it's also a mask pursuer 524 00:39:53,100 --> 00:39:57,580 So pursuer is not the person who always like go yelling and shouting at the other partner pursuer 525 00:39:57,580 --> 00:40:03,740 Cook is always the one the first person in the whole dance to say I am upset and this could be done by 526 00:40:04,140 --> 00:40:06,060 I give you the silence treatment 527 00:40:06,060 --> 00:40:09,980 Or I do something just to get your attention. Yeah, I see what you mean 528 00:40:10,060 --> 00:40:15,340 So yeah, it's it's still pursuing. It just might appear as the silent treatment. Yeah, I get that I get that 529 00:40:15,420 --> 00:40:19,660 So I still think i'm a pursuer, you know for the I think I may change my mind. I might be the 530 00:40:21,260 --> 00:40:25,180 So we've definitely talked about reigniting marriages we've definitely talked about rebuilding connections 531 00:40:25,180 --> 00:40:29,420 We have not technically talked about kind of restoring hope which is one of your other slogans 532 00:40:30,060 --> 00:40:32,620 What message would you give to women there in their 40s? 533 00:40:32,700 --> 00:40:37,760 And when I heard restoring hope that kind of made me think of some of my really close girlfriends 534 00:40:38,140 --> 00:40:45,260 Who have kind of given up hope that they're going to find a partner or even if they have a partner that it will ever be better 535 00:40:45,660 --> 00:40:48,860 They're just like, you know, this is my life now and this is how I live 536 00:40:49,260 --> 00:40:53,980 What advice can you give to women in their 40s who are either not yet in a stable relationship? 537 00:40:53,980 --> 00:41:00,000 Or are in one and have lost hope I would love to know leave this acronym ABC 538 00:41:01,020 --> 00:41:07,900 So a is for acknowledge less acknowledge the pain the disappointment silver feet express the emotions 539 00:41:08,380 --> 00:41:13,100 Because when you do that you come to a stage where you can have the emotional closure to say 540 00:41:13,340 --> 00:41:15,900 Okay, I've forgiven about what has happened in the past 541 00:41:16,540 --> 00:41:20,960 And this is where i'm able to see clarity and embrace how I have contributed 542 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:27,200 To the conflict. So for example in the pursue and withdrawal cycle you'll go like yes, I 543 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:34,480 Acknowledge that in the past. I keep yelling at the other person and when I yell I use her full words to get attention 544 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:41,600 But to reach that stage is not easy because it have you have to overcome guilt and shame just to embrace this part 545 00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:45,040 So this is a hoping that when you go through a, you know 546 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:50,960 When you have the awareness of what's happening, you won't bring this into the next relationship. Yeah 547 00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:57,680 B is what I call let's build the relationship with small gestures. It doesn't have to be a big grand deal 548 00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:03,680 Small gestures like little things like, you know, let's just give each other a call or even five minutes a 549 00:42:04,240 --> 00:42:08,240 A day to talk that's enough or sometimes, you know, you pass by a fruit store and say hey 550 00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:10,880 I saw nice apples and my partner love apples 551 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:15,280 So just let's do that and that actually builds over time 552 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:19,920 Now c is what I call consult, especially when it comes to relationship 553 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,120 Not just like when we are sick. We are not feeling well. We see a doctor 554 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:30,080 If you feel like hey, i'm not at a good space be mentally or emotionally or is it because of my relationship? 555 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:37,840 See consult with a professional because i've seen many couples stay instead of seeking professional advice 556 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:44,880 They go to tiktok they go to youtube and find information and they start to forward this information to their partners 557 00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:48,160 And that trigger even more escalation. Yeah 558 00:42:48,720 --> 00:42:55,520 So I would say that you know the a b c a for let's acknowledge your emotions and how you have contributed to your previous 559 00:42:55,900 --> 00:42:57,760 uh relationship 560 00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:04,640 B is let's build the relationship with small gestures and c is consult a professional if need be 561 00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:08,000 I love that third one that definitely is relevant in our professions as well, right? 562 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:11,280 It's like you can get all the diet and fitness information you want from tiktok 563 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,880 But I promise you you should talk to a professional definitely. Yeah 564 00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:18,000 Well, so we have to wrap up here. Teresa. We've loved having you today 565 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:25,520 But we have to ask you the question we asked every single one of our guests, right? Which is what is your 40s formula? 566 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:32,080 What are a few pieces of advice that you can give to women in this decade relevant to what you do that can help them thrive? 567 00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:39,680 You know what? I do recognize that women in their 40s at this time you have achieved many job, you know satisfaction 568 00:43:40,240 --> 00:43:45,300 But I want to say that now all this job satisfaction is only for a moment temporary 569 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:53,120 Always put your relationship your loved ones or your marriage as a priority because they are the ones who will be going to journey with you 570 00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:56,800 Ups and downs who will walk with you till the end of life 571 00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:00,560 That's funny because that's just what our last guy said. Yeah, that is it's actually 572 00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:06,720 Like perfect. Yes, if y'all are listening to our uh, podcast with adora, we have a very similar message and it's true 573 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:12,400 Right. It's like put your put your money where your relationships are. Yes, your job is only temporary 574 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:15,200 Thank you so much for coming in today. Teresa 575 00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:20,080 You've given us so much to think about and so much that we can actionally do in our own relationships 576 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:23,280 And I think that's really powerful. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you 577 00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:27,540 You know jasmine and amanda for this invitation. Thank you our pleasure 578 00:44:27,540 --> 00:44:29,860 Want more from the 40s formula every friday? 579 00:44:29,860 --> 00:44:37,460 We'll be sending our for play friday newsletter direct to your inbox with four hot topics tips and trends personally curated by jasmine and amanda 580 00:44:38,180 --> 00:44:43,540 All you need to do is visit the 40s formula.com and sign up with your email address. That's the 581 00:44:44,340 --> 00:44:46,180 for 582 00:44:46,180 --> 00:44:48,180 t i e s formula.com 583 00:44:49,140 --> 00:44:51,140 This is paul our editor 584 00:44:51,140 --> 00:44:56,580 He's a 25 year old unmarried singaporean guy listening to the ramblings of 12 old ladies 585 00:44:56,580 --> 00:45:00,740 and ramblings of 12 older women on everything from menopause to weightlifting to sex 586 00:45:01,540 --> 00:45:04,100 So paul, what's your thoughts on today's conversation? 587 00:45:05,140 --> 00:45:07,380 Couples therapy, I think it's pretty awesome 588 00:45:08,100 --> 00:45:13,380 So personally, i'm a bit advocate for mental health and caring for that aspect of life. So 589 00:45:14,260 --> 00:45:17,220 Maybe perhaps for the older folks out there going for therapy 590 00:45:17,780 --> 00:45:21,220 You know, you guys might feel it's a bit more of a stigmatized connotation 591 00:45:21,220 --> 00:45:26,820 But I think of it as something that's a bit more to do with um, well 592 00:45:27,060 --> 00:45:31,780 Basically going to a mind spa and so going to relax, you know having myself gone through it 593 00:45:31,780 --> 00:45:33,860 I think it's something that's good 594 00:45:34,500 --> 00:45:36,820 And you should give it a try maybe sometime 595 00:45:37,780 --> 00:45:42,420 And of course if any of you guys out there are in need for someone to talk to 596 00:45:42,980 --> 00:45:47,620 Don't be afraid to take steps to seek help with a professional. So 597 00:45:48,180 --> 00:45:50,180 Yay 598 00:45:50,180 --> 00:45:55,460 Guys, you know how much we love coffee and if you want to show some love, you know, you can get us one just visit 599 00:45:56,020 --> 00:45:58,020 Buymeacoffee.com 600 00:45:58,020 --> 00:46:00,020 The 40s formula cheers 601 00:46:02,180 --> 00:46:03,220 Before we go 602 00:46:03,220 --> 00:46:09,860 Please remember to hit subscribe and take a moment to support the 40s formula by leaving a review on your favorite podcast platform 603 00:46:10,420 --> 00:46:14,740 Your reviews will help us to reach more people and allow us to continue to bring valuable content 604 00:46:15,140 --> 00:46:17,940 It should only take a moment and it's a free way for you to support the show 605 00:46:17,940 --> 00:46:24,740 You can also stay updated with the 40s formula by following us on instagram at the 40s formula all one word 606 00:46:25,300 --> 00:46:31,060 We share behind the scenes insights episode updates and much more. So please be sure to hit that follow button 607 00:46:31,540 --> 00:46:34,820 We appreciate your time and support. Thank you for being part of this community 608 00:46:34,900 --> 00:46:38,500 And we'll be back next week for more empowering conversations with inspiring guests 609 00:46:38,500 --> 00:46:48,500 Bye 610 00:47:08,580 --> 00:47:10,580 So 611 00:47:22,340 --> 00:47:24,340 All right, thanks, thank you so much 612 00:47:24,500 --> 00:47:29,860 Thank you so much. That was wonderful. I guess I we did have a little pause in there, but we'll just edit it together 613 00:47:29,860 --> 00:47:39,060 I don't think we actually lost anything paul. I think it's just that we have to sew it up