Women in their 40s might suffer from redistribution of fat,
and it generally tends to be around the midsection.
Would you say that this is part of the natural aging process,
or is there something we can actually do about this?
You can always do something about it.
Yes.
What can we do?
MUSIC
Hey, hey, and welcome to the 40s Formula,
your go-to place for insightful discussions on navigating the 40s
and thriving in this transformative decade.
We're your hosts, Jasmin and Amanda,
two women that are passionate about exploring the challenges
and adventures that come with turning 40 and what lies ahead.
MUSIC
Dr. Mina Karelia-Ohman is a physician scientist
and board certified lifestyle medicine doctor
with over 25 years of research in cardiometabolic diseases,
conducted at leading universities in Finland,
the United States and Singapore.
Her extensive publications in top tier journals
cover critical topics such as obesity, cardiovascular disease and diabetes.
In recent years, Dr. Mina has dedicated herself to advancing lifestyle medicine,
becoming board certified lifestyle medicine physician in 2022.
A year later, she founded Karelia Health,
where she works locally and internationally
to promote evidence-based lifestyle interventions
that prevent, treat and even reverse disease.
Through Karelia Health, she not only educates health care professionals
and the public, but also consults private clients, start-ups
and large healthcare organisations on the science of health-promoting lifestyle
and how to apply it in real life.
Dr. Mina is also the founding president
of the Singapore Society of Lifestyle Medicine, established in 2023,
where she is driving initiatives that place lifestyle
at the forefront of healthcare.
Last but not least, Dr. Karelia is a registered yoga teacher,
a nature lover and a mother of two
and lives in Singapore with her husband for over 24 years.
We are so excited to have Dr. Mina here with us today on the 40s Formula
and the reason we're so excited is because we are going to be talking about lifestyle medicine.
Now, lifestyle medicine has been gaining some popularity recently.
There seems to be this shift towards preventative and holistic approach in healthcare.
But for some people who haven't heard of the term lifestyle medicine,
could you please explain to us what that actually means
and how it differs from the traditional medical approaches?
Sure. So lifestyle medicine is a medical specialty
that uses evidence-based therapeutic lifestyle interventions
as primary modality to treat disease, prevent disease, treat disease,
manage, even reverse disease.
And it's really a patient-centred approach compared to conventional medicine,
where the patient is like a passive receiver of the care.
In lifestyle medicine, patient really takes an active role in all this holistic care model.
And the doctor works with the patient and it's also a multidisciplinary team
that can help the doctor and the patient
to carve out this perfect lifestyle intervention for that particular patient.
So for someone who's in their 40s who hasn't had any sort of previous history of illness,
should they consider this type of approach or should they wait until something happens?
When is the best time to introduce lifestyle medicine?
Oh, from early on. The earlier the better, for sure.
I mean, it really starts from the childhood or even when the baby's in the womb still.
But yeah, so the earlier the better because a lot of the chronic diseases,
they actually take decades to develop.
And that's why your prevention should also start decades before these diseases develop.
So really in the childhood, if you establish healthy eating habits, physical activity,
sleeping habits, these really carry a huge gains later on in life
because it's much easier than to maintain these healthy habits into adulthood.
And yeah, if you haven't started the healthy habits earlier, then it's never too late.
You can always, always improve your health and prevent more diseases from happening.
And I, for one, I'm so glad that you brought up sleep.
So I have three little kids at home.
So I have a four year old, a three year old and now an eight month old.
And we are absolutely crazy about sleep.
I mean, I will go to such great lengths to protect my kids sleep routine.
And first of all, to establish that routine, right?
And the consistency, the bedtimes, the wake times, everything, and then to protect it.
Right. So we say no to any invitation for any birthday party or whatever
that happens after 5 p.m. It doesn't happen in my house because my kids are in the bathtub
by 5 45 because they're in bed by 6 30.
And so, you know, it's funny that you mentioned like establishing things in childhood
makes it so much easier and kind of more natural to then have proper sleep hygiene as an adult.
Right. Yes. Are there other things that you think that parents with with kids of either
my age or older kids, right, should be doing with their families from young to really help
establish, set them up for success in their later years?
Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, eating habits are one one definitely big thing.
I mean, the lifestyle medicine, I should have mentioned in the first first question,
like actually there are six pillars in lifestyle medicine that are healthy eating
and really like plant predominant eating pattern and the physical activity,
restorative sleep, but also stress management and avoidance of risky substances
and then positive social connections.
And we can talk about all these in detail later.
But so from the early childhood, if you have all these in your life,
you definitely are in a very good track in your adulthood and preventing all the chronic diseases.
But these are all applicable for later ages as well.
Yes. But if if you learn these in the childhood, it's been shown, for example,
in obesity research in decades ago, because my PhD actually was on obesity.
Million years ago. But yeah, so it was shown that in families where they had meal times together,
everyone was eating on the same at the same table.
These kids were in a reduced risk of developing obesity later.
So the usually the common meal times in in families, they really are associated
with the healthy eating patterns and stronger social connections.
And all these protect from chronic diseases later in life.
Yeah, that's getting two big pillars.
Yeah. And yeah, exactly. It fits in perfectly.
And it's funny, isn't it? You'll go to a restaurant and you'll say,
oh, can I have the kids menu? And the kids menu is French fries, chicken nuggets,
maybe a bolognese. Yeah, bolognese is probably the lightest food.
And and, you know, these are the types of things that are not setting up the child's for better
eating habits throughout their lifetime, because I do know adults now who still don't eat
vegetables, who still don't, you know, get enough fiber in their diet.
And and I guess all these habits start from when they're younger.
But how much of these habits are, I guess, lifestyle driven versus maybe a change in the gut
microbiome? Do you think that that that can affect how people eat as well?
Oh, everything affects everything. OK.
So how the how the six pillars actually synergize to promote the health and affect each other is
is really, you know, they can either form a vicious cycle or then you can like,
you know, go back and restore everything because the gut microbiome, healthy gut microbiome
that starts with eating fiber every day and fiber you only get from plants.
So that really can support your metabolism, your brain health, gut health, reduce inflammation.
And when your gut health is good and supporting you, like reducing chronic low grade inflammation,
for example, you have a easier time to sleep.
You have less pains. I mean, if you're going to talk about menopause.
Yes, very, very important.
If you are physically active, you have a better sleep quality also.
Physical activity also contributes to microbiome.
And if you are sleep deprived, that's being associated with inflammation levels,
higher inflammation levels, and inflammation in itself actually feeds to leakiness of the gut.
And so other things like risky substances, substances like tobacco and alcohol,
they contribute the microbiome, deteriorating that.
And whatever else, the positive social connections.
This is really important to understand that also the positive social connections
contribute to your stress levels and they can actually, there was a study I want to mention really.
It's so remarkable, I think, if you have acts of kindness towards other people
versus towards yourself, the kindness towards other people actually reduces
the gene expression level of your inflammatory genes.
Wow.
Yes.
That's amazing.
Yes, yes, it is.
So take two doses of Being Kind and call me in the morning.
Yes. So really, all the six pillars are tightly linked and can support each other
in creating more health and promoting health.
And just to mention about the chronic low-grade inflammation,
it's really present in all chronic diseases.
It really contributes all the diseases in the end that we think like cardiovascular disease,
diabetes, any kind of lung diseases, autoimmune diseases, other brain neurodegenerative diseases,
they're all linked to chronic low-grade inflammation.
Yeah.
It's scary, isn't it, like how much it can affect, like inflammation,
how much it can affect your body in so many different ways.
Yes.
So going back to menopause and possibly obesity, women in their 40s might suffer from
redistribution of fat and it generally tends to be around the midsection.
And we know that this could be because of, say, low muscle tone, low estrogen.
Would you say that this is part of the natural aging process
or is there something we can actually do about this?
You can always do something about it.
Yes.
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And now back to the show.
So, but yes, for sure it's part of the natural process called aging.
You've never heard of it.
Yes.
You know, we start to lose muscle.
It starts in our 30s already, right?
But it becomes more visible actually in our 40s.
And then when we start to lose muscle mass gradually, muscle is metabolically more active
than adipose or fat tissue.
And that then, if we have less muscle mass, our basal metabolic rate will be also lower
because muscle burns more energy than fat tissue, right?
So this is one factor.
Then other is the hormone levels.
Estrogen, protesterone, you must know all this.
And when they start to also lower down, this will affect how our fat is distributed in
the body.
So it starts to go towards the male, you know, fat accumulation to the midsection, the belly
fat.
And also what happens in our 40s, we can be at the life stage that we are really surrounded
by multiple stress factors.
So whether we have young kids or teenage kids, you know, it can be a source of stress.
Kids are just stressful.
Yeah.
But also a source of happiness.
But then we can have elderly parents that we may be, you know, taking care of.
That can create a lot of stress.
So if we don't have kids or elderly parents, we can be in our work life.
We can be in already like climbing the ladder and be at the more positions of high responsibility
and high stress.
And so there are all these different factors that contribute to your stress.
And what happens in stress is your cortisol levels go up.
And what cortisol does to your fat distribution, it's the same thing than the male.
Your body starts to accumulate to the midsection.
Plus if we have because of the hormone fluctuations in perimenopause, menopause, and all the stress
factors, our sleep can deteriorate.
And this again increases inflammation, stress levels again contributes to the fat accumulation
to the midsection.
So there's really multiple factors.
It's like these cogs, isn't it?
Like when one gets jammed, then everything is screwed.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But you can implement all the six pillars and then they work in synergy to help you
in this.
And Dr. Mina, I have to push on something that you brought up, Dr. Tash brought up,
which she was with us, and that I think our listeners really need to hear again, which
is the role of muscle, right?
The role of metabolically active tissue that is muscle.
I'm just thinking about a patient that we had in today in our clinic and came in with
the presenting concerns that exactly what Jasmine was talking about, right?
So widening midsection, is it my hormones and my perimenopausal, right?
I'm in my late 40s.
And the first thing she said was, I, my exercise routine is spot on.
Perfect.
I run, I do spin class, I do Pilates.
And I said, and where do we do our progressive strength training?
And she was like, oh, no, no, no, I don't want to get too bulky.
Can you talk to women specifically as a woman and as a doctor about what is the difference
between, I guess, lean muscle and the perception of bulk?
I guess that's a very, you know, subjective question.
What is bulky?
Yeah.
But I don't think women in general need to be worried about building too big muscles.
Actually you would need to do a lot of strength training to build bulky muscles and eat tons
and tons of protein.
And normally women just don't do that.
I mean, women who compete in these areas.
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Women also secretes small amounts of testosterone from ovaries and that also starts to go down
with age in women.
So it's like the female hormones and testosterone is needed for bulky muscles too.
So it's just simply impossible to really build those bulky muscles as well as you're using
some anabolic steroids or something.
But you need support in this building.
But women should understand that really the strength training is essential for bone health
as well, really to prevent the osteoporosis, which has to be a big risk factor after menopause.
And that would be to sort of help with, I guess, in case you fall, there's a higher
chance of hip fractures and bone fractures, which could then possibly lead to an earlier
death if you've got weaker bones.
Now I think a lot of people, when they think about making lifestyle choices, they think
they have to do something drastic.
You know, they have to severely cut calories.
They have to exercise every day.
Is this the case with lifestyle medicine or are there sort of small realistic changes
or things that people can implement to make a difference in their life?
So lifestyle medicine works.
It works those responsibly, just like drugs, right?
So if you want to make big changes in whatever you want to change, then yeah, big changes
can make wonders, right?
They can do wonders.
But more important actually is consistency, right?
And in lifestyle medicine in general, the health coaching in general, the patient really
defines how they want to go about it, how big of a goals they want to take and start
building on that.
So that is really dependent on the patient's motivation.
And then the lifestyle medicine doctor works with the patient, you know, how the patient
chooses what they want to do, how much you build these smart goals and yeah, you know
what that is, right?
But sorry, for people who've never had a smart goal before, could you just...
Oh, a smart goal is a specific, measurable, attainable...
We say relevant.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Relevant, yes, right.
And timely.
Relevant and time-bound, right.
Yeah.
So this can be like, for example, if you want to change your eating patterns towards more
plant-based, you would think like, okay, so I would want to increase my broccoli intake
and so I would start to eat broccoli two times per week with dinner, something like this.
So it's quite measurable, it's time-bound and yeah, for the next four weeks or something,
right?
Something like this.
Yeah.
So it's not just saying, rather than just saying, oh, I'm going to eat healthy.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Eating healthy kills me.
Yeah.
Even eat more vegetables.
Yes, yes.
Not specific enough, like when, how?
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
What kind of vegetables?
Yeah.
Is it like...
Potato?
Yeah, deep fried.
Yes.
More fried vegetables.
Yeah, not potato chips or fries.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So really whole foods and yeah.
So you've mentioned obviously plant-based a few times.
Would you say that there is a particular diet or a particular way of eating that can benefit
most people?
Everyone will benefit from eating whole plant-based foods.
Yes.
So really increasing the vegetable intake because they contain so many good things for
you, vitamins, all the phytonutrients, polyphenols.
And then really thinking about how much you're eating sugar.
So these are the refined carbohydrates that the fiber has been taken out.
And you know, when the industry processes the foods, so the ultra-processed foods, they
usually do not contain any fiber anymore because industry wants these products to stay, have
a long shelf life.
And also saturated fat is one thing that has been consistently shown in preclinical and
clinical studies to be associated with increased cardiovascular disease risk.
And so intake of salt is something that you really should pay attention to that contributes
to hypertension or high blood pressure, a very severe risk factor for cardiovascular
disease, stroke and heart attacks.
And kidney disease also.
So what was there?
Sugar, salt and saturated fat, yes.
And then really the fiber intake, which comes from plants.
So fiber is only present in plants.
So when someone buys something from a supermarket that says plant-based and it comes in a nice
wrapper that's green, would you say that that is then, oh yeah, that's fine to eat?
Or would you say, because you mentioned ultra-processed there, or would you say that when you are
going plant-based, you should actually be focusing on whole foods?
Yes.
Not processed.
So just think about like rather eating a whole fruit, which contains the fiber, intact fiber,
than drinking fruit juice, for example, or eating like an apple pie and McDonald's.
Yes.
Oh, damn it, I thought that was part of my one-a-day, one-fiver-day.
And then the vegetable, you've heard this, eat the rainbow.
So really the different colors, because they contain different kind of polyphenols and
beta carotenes.
So that's essential for everything, for brain health, for endothelial health, if you want.
So cardiovascular health, gut health, reducing inflammation.
And then also think about the protein sources, that even the protein source can contain fiber
if you eat nuts and seeds and legumes, especially legumes, so beans and lentils and that stuff.
And for women especially, if we go back to menopause a little bit.
So a natural way to get the estrogens is eating soy, soybeans.
So for example, tofu, tempeh, natto, miso, drinking soy milk.
There was a study done a couple of years ago showing that menopausal women that had hot
flashes, if they ate half a cup of soybeans for, I think 12 weeks was the study duration,
they could cut their hot flashes by 80%.
Wow.
Yes, that's what I was missing out on.
So the soy contains a phytoestrogen or isoflavone, which binds to, so there's two different kind
of estrogen receptors in the body, estrogen receptor alpha and then beta.
So our own estrogen hormones and hormone replacement therapy hormones, they bind to alpha receptor,
whereas the phytoestrogens from soy or other beans actually also, they bind to beta receptor.
And these receptors are in different tissues actually.
So when you eat the soy products, you can actually improve your bone health and vascular
health and brain health.
And you don't increase the risk of if there is a risk after menopause with the hormones.
And what would you say to our listeners who, Jasmine kind of mentioned this with the example
of the plant-based packaging, but it's like, okay, they hear this podcast and they say,
soy, great for me.
Now I'm going to get my soy milk at Starbucks every day.
And not realizing that a lot of the commercially available soy milk products are heavily sweetened
process, et cetera.
So how do you help your patients look for the right kinds of soy products?
Definitely you go to the most original nature packaging, right?
From nature, like Edamame beans, like you kind of get more closer than that.
Right?
So the less unprocessed, the better.
Always, always applies to everything.
Yeah.
So soy milk, yes, you have to carefully look at the sugar content and what is added there.
If there's like these are emulsifiers that are not good for your gut health.
But yeah, so like I said, you know, soybeans would be the best.
And then the fermented soy is even better because from fermented foods, you get the,
you know, enrichment of the microbiome, tempeh and natto and liso.
Going back to sort of gut health, obviously eating plenty of fiber, introducing probiotics
and prebiotics.
I also heard that giving your gut a rest is a good idea to help with your sort of microbiome.
So what are your thoughts on intermittent fasting?
I feel like that seems to be quite a buzzword.
Everyone's either tried it or are trying it.
What are your thoughts about intermittent fasting or time restricted eating?
There are studies that show benefits from it, for sure.
I don't think it's absolutely necessary for you to be, you know, super healthy.
But it can help people if they try to find different ways to, for example, reduce whatever
they are eating, that if they need to lose weight, it can be one of the methods.
How you, you know, you find your own solutions what works best for you.
Definitely the 12 hour fast window, overnight 12 hour fast is recommendable because yes,
you're very right.
The gut should have, should give, should be given time to rest process from the processing
of all the food digestion.
And I have a longer than 12 hour overnight fast myself, but I wouldn't say that it's
needed, but you can experiment with it.
Yeah.
So 12 hours should just be not even considered a fast.
That's just your overnight.
That's right.
Sleeping.
That should be the basic.
Absolutely basic.
And then anything more than that, then that's obviously a tool that you could use if you
are either looking to, I guess, optimize weight management or so it's not like it's needed,
but it could be used as a tool if it works for you.
Yes.
I mean, there are different approaches also in there are publications, for example, from
Valter Longo, one of the longevity researchers looking at fasting in itself to for diabetes
patients to restore the glucose metabolism, how it should actually work to get rid of
insulin resistance.
So in his methods, they tried fasting for, I think between three to five days or three
to four days each month, like like the cyclical fasting.
And then, so eating very low calorie diet for these very specific, it's only plant based
diet in these few days in a month and then doing this for a few months in a row.
And this can actually lead to very good results in reduction in in those glucose markers like
HbA1c, glycated hemoglobin, which is one of the markers in diabetes, fasting glucose
of all this.
So yes, body is a very wise in itself and it knows if you give it a chance, it actually
can start repairing itself if you stop damaging it.
Yeah, that's the key.
That's the key, isn't it?
Stop damaging it.
Stop beating yourself up.
So Dr. Mina, what do you wish every woman in her 40s would know about her health, her
body?
Because it's something you'd love to sort of shout from the rooftops, Nazi shawls.
I would want women to understand that their bodies are actually constantly changing throughout
their lifetime compared to men, right?
We really go through various, you know, different phases in our life and even every month, right?
Because of the hormones.
So don't beat yourself up and also understand that women, if we're now comparing to men,
since you said women, I guess, women tend to take a lot of responsibility for other
people, but not not really taking care of good, really good care of themselves.
Oftentimes they abandon themselves.
And this is something that I really want to remind.
It's really important to give value to yourself, to really take care of yourself.
And especially in the 40s, if we go to this period of time, there's is really a decade
of huge transformations that can happen.
You can start in your peak performance, early 40s, and then you can go to the rock bottom
in your late 40s because of the transition.
Also because the body is aging very rapidly in your late 40s.
There's a couple different time points in the human lifespan where the aging happens
really rapidly.
One is late 40s, one is around 65.
I think I saw an email, part of Peter Attia mailing list, and he specifically gave the
age 44.
I was like, God, I've got two years left.
Two years left.
And you're talking about rapid aging?
When you say rapid aging, do you literally mean cellular aging?
Do you mean metabolic demise?
What are the markers of aging that unfortunately we have to be looking out for in the late
40s?
Ah, the hallmarks of aging.
Okay, so in this specific study that they defined this, actually I don't remember what
markers they were looking at, but there's different kinds of hallmarks of aging, which
is oxidative stress, protein dysfunction, mitochondrial dysfunction, low-grade inflammation,
telomere shortening, a couple of you once that I didn't review for this podcast.
So epigenetic changes where you measure the clocks, it's actually it differs between different
tissues.
But one thing is a lot of these clocks that measure the epigenetic changes of DNA methylation,
a significant amount of these markers actually related to cortisol or your stress hormone
signaling.
Wow.
So really understanding that, you know, that stress is crucial to manage.
Yeah.
So we hear oftentimes people say that when they do an intermittent fast or when they
do exercise or when they either go to a sauna or a cold plunge, these are all stresses to
the body.
How does that type of stressor affect the body in comparison to say, you know, that
work deadline that you've got or your kids or your financial stress?
Like how is that different or is it the same?
Can your body tell?
So yeah, I mean, yes, for sure, like, you know, exercise or, you know, these short-term
shocks that have a clear defined start and end is very different than a chronic stress
that you really don't know the mental stress, like, you know, your toxic boss or something
that, you know, you lose your sleep with.
So the short duration of the stress is a different kind and you can recover from that.
However, if you accumulate even these short stresses, if you accumulate them too much,
you go over your ability to then compensate for all the stress because all the stress
creates oxidative stress creates these radicals, oxygen radicals in your body.
And if your system is not optimized to work with these oxygen radicals or reactive oxygen
species with, for example, nutritious diet, healthy diet that contains antioxidants, then
you accumulate too much of this uncompensated stress in your system.
And this can lead to, for example, mutations in the DNA because these radicals are really
powerful.
Yeah.
So the sources of stress, you know, if you are not sleeping well, but you are doing all
of these, you know, exercise and whatever you were just listing there, but then you
have a huge mental stress and you're not sleeping well.
So you accumulate a lot of stress that can actually be harmful in the end.
So you so you kind of have to know where's your balance, how well you can recover.
Yeah.
Recovery seems to be key.
Yeah.
Recovery is a big theme for us on this season.
I feel like a lot of our experts are talking about recovery.
I was mentioning that my husband started using the Morpheus.
So to track HRV in the morning to test, you know, what kind of protocol he should be using
for his cardiovascular training based on how well recovered he is.
And there's other protocols that are doing this, right?
Or rings and garments.
I've got, I've got my one gives me my body battery score started at a hundred this morning.
Yeah.
Again, I think my sleep has been on point.
So I'm, I'm quite excited that, you know, I get to see that is recording decent sleep
for me and I wake up feeling refreshed.
So the only problem I had this morning was I was running a little bit late.
So I didn't have my morning coffee.
So when I went to the gym, I was like, why am I really tired?
And I was, oh, I didn't get my usual coffee.
Recovery score 99.
I know.
I think, I think it will be, I don't think it's going to be quite there, but Dr. Meena,
it has been absolutely wonderful having you on the show.
I feel like we've got so much more to ask you.
So we might have to get you back in and maybe talk about some, some other stuff.
But before we go, we do have one question that we like to ask all of our guests.
And that is what is your forties formula?
If you had to summarize what people in their forties can do to help, help how they can,
I don't even know what I'm saying.
If people have to, how they can thrive in their forties, what would you say that would
be?
Try to enjoy life to the maximum because forties, the decade, now I'm over 50, so I can look
back and say, it can be a decade of really deep transformation.
So be prepared for that.
Like I said, take care of yourself and also take care of other people because that is
important for social connection.
And kindness.
Yes, yes, yes.
So I love this Tibetan saying, I'm not sure if it's Tibetan, but it says that the recipe
for healthy, happy life is a long life is eat half, walk double, laugh triple, and love
without measure.
Wow.
I love that.
I have not heard that.
That's just the perfect formula, isn't it?
It's like, yeah, that's a literal 40 formula.
So you're welcome listeners.
Thank you so much again, Dr. Mina.
It has been amazing.
And you know, we again, we would love to have you back on the show at some point.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
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Heyyy!
So you both have three kids?
We do.
I have two.
Wow.
What are the ages of your kids?
Oh, they're all 21 and 19.
Wow.
They're 21 and they're studying in university.
They're doing their own thing.
What are they doing at university?
They study.
So the older one, so she will graduate in June.
Oh my God.
So they're in Toronto, University of Toronto.
So she studies biology and environmental biology, double major.
And then the younger one studies psychology.
Wow.
And they're both at University of Toronto.
Yes.
That's an amazing school.
That's lovely.
Yes.
It is the top school in Canada.
Do they love Toronto?
Is that like a lifestyle that fits them and a weather pattern that fits them?
Very different.
Coming from Sweden though.
So I actually lived outside of Finland for 20 plus years.
So we were in Ann Arbor, Michigan for 10 years.
The kids were born there.
Were you at University of Michigan?
Yes, we both were at University of Michigan.
And then we came here 12 years ago.
So the kids mainly remember, so the kids were that time, what?
Let me think, eight and five and a half, something like this.
So they mainly remember Singapore as their place where they grew up.
And that's a big city, right?
So I was like, because I'm such a nature level, right?
Like, okay, would you like to go somewhere like UBC where there's a lot of nature?
It's gorgeous.
We need the city.
That's what they used to do, it makes sense.
Very different lifestyle.
So then, and now the older one, she was like, oh, I want to work in New York City.
And I was like, well, really?
Just keep getting bigger, right?
City to city to city, right?
But then I was like, okay, I'm hopeful because they can still change their mind.
Like I still move to somewhere with a lot of nature around.