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massages and spa days.

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Yeah, you don't need to drink for those times.

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Yeah, those make those things worse.

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Like the two things you've just mentioned are worse with alcohol.

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Oh, I know. So for a friend's 40th, we went for a brunch, massage,

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and both occasions I was vomiting.

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Yeah.

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So I was on an uneasy bed for a while.

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You're literally like swirling the alcohol around your sister.

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Hey, hey, and welcome to the 40s Formula, your go-to place for insightful discussions

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on navigating the 40s and thriving in this transformative decade.

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We're your hosts, Jasmine and Amanda, two women that are passionate about exploring

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the challenges and adventures that come with turning 40 and what lies ahead.

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Michelle O'Brien spent over 15 years building communities and content marketing strategies

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for global brands like Disney, Coca-Cola, Samsung, and Mercedes-Benz.

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Until plot twist, she changed her profession, went completely alcohol-free,

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and realized that life could be better than ever.

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For Michelle, drinking less isn't about deprivation. It's liberation.

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Her personal journey to alcohol-free living fueled a passion for helping others discover

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the joy and freedom of sobriety, which she does via her own podcast, The Upward Spiral.

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Michelle's mission is to share the secrets of feeling good,

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connecting authentically, and having more fun without booze.

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So in past seasons of the 40s Formula, we have had doctors, we have had coaches,

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we have had wellness professionals of all ilk touching on the topic of alcohol.

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But today is the first day that we're actually interviewing someone who is fully and proudly

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sober, so we're so happy to have you with us, Michelle. Thank you. I feel like, wow,

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I'm in good company. Amazing. I would consider myself sober curious, and again, I don't even

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know if I'm using that term correctly, but someone who has significantly decreased their

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alcohol load in the past three to five years. But the more I get into metabolic health and

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longevity research, the more I realize that this is a growing movement and it needs to be.

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Can you describe for us the moment or the series of moments where it clicked for you that you had

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to stop alcoholic life? Yeah. Okay. I love this question because everyone, a lot of people,

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not everyone, but everyone, a lot of people assume that you have to hit a rock bottom

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to give up alcohol. And a lot of people assume that you have to have a problem to have stopped

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drinking. And that wasn't the case for me as well. I think the journey of this started about 10

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years ago. I was living in London, working at advertising, very much a work hard, play hard

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culture. And I was trapped in that cycle. And I could recognize that this wasn't good for me and

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I needed to get out. So I left, moved to Asia, one way ticket to Asia and then moved to Singapore.

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And it was brilliant. But I continue to drink. I continue to drink because it's part of our

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culture. And it's how we connect with people. It's how we meet people. I was an ex-pat here

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with my husband. This is how we found our friends. I drank a lot less than when I did in London,

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but it took me another eight years to completely quit alcohol. I had children, my kids were five

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and three. And then I got COVID hit. So during that period, obviously kind of drinking stopped

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for one period. For some? For others it named them 100%. But yes, during COVID it kind of went

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one or two ways, I think for a lot of people. And coming out of COVID, I was like, I want to start

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getting my life back and it's not going to my friends. Went out a couple of times, one or two

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drinks would feel dreadful. And my tolerance was low. I was throwing on outside of taxis.

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With two drinks? Two or three drinks. Yeah. Not being able to drink to the level that I used to

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and just absolutely hating it. I really felt like I was forcing myself to drink. And there was a

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number of occasions where you're with groups of friends and they're like, just have a drink.

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I thought I'm really kind of forcing myself. And I think I just kind of came to that realization

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that they just wasn't serving me anymore. I think alongside that, I had a very stressful job.

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So I was working at Disney. I was working on the launch of Disney Plus for eight markets. We had

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back-to-back launches. I had a one and a three-year-old at home at the time. And I was training for the

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Singapore Marathon. Wow. And I was like, I just had this feeling in the back of my mind that I

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wasn't reaching my full potential. That no matter how hard I was trying, I just was like 95% there.

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And I was like, something's holding me back. And I couldn't put my finger on what it was.

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And with the marathon coming up, I thought, no, I'm not going to drink for six months.

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I'm going to train, get my hair down, and I'll drink. And after a month, two months into it,

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I started to notice a massive difference in my training, in my patience with my children,

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in my ability to do my job, that my stress level was a little better, my sleep was better.

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And I just realized that actually all it took was kind of removing alcohol to make such an incredible

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difference. And that has only escalated as time has gone on. Oh, girl. There are so many parts of

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that I want to unpack. We're going to unpack the patience with kids thing a bit later, because I

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think that's a real strong note that moms especially need to hear. But I want to circle back to the

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very first thing you said about living in London, drinking a ton, having a career, drinking as part

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of the career. I was talking to you off air about a client that I saw yesterday that is 55 years old.

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She feels that she needs alcohol. And she said this as much because professionally, her job demands

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it. And because she does so much business in the Japan and Korea markets, if she was visibly not

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drinking alcohol, that that would be a problem. How would you talk to someone like that, who really

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does she really does for her own health, want to cut down, but feels that she cannot? Yeah, I hear

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this all the time, and particularly, you know, in Asia, particularly in certain sectors, people are

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just, you know, they come to me and they're like, I really want to drink less, I want to stop. And

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for me, a lot of these people are actually in senior leadership roles. Yes. And that's got to

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start at the top, that change has got to start somewhere and it's got to start with somebody.

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And if you're in a position, you know, you think, yeah, you might not be the CEO, you might not be

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at the very top, but change has to come from somewhere. And I always find, for me, that when

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I'm out with colleagues or I'm doing business, that if I make sure I'm the first person to order a

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drink, and I will order a non-alcoholic alternative, maybe a non-alcoholic beer. And by being the first

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person, I would guarantee you that at least 50% of the table will order a non-alcoholic option.

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Because most people don't want to drink either. Most people want to go home with their family.

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Most people want to feel good and have a good night's sleep, get up and train and do whatever.

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But they are caught, there's habit, you know, that habit of I'm just going to order a wine,

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they're doing what everybody else around the table does. So it's like, okay, well, everyone else is

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drinking a beer, so I feel like I need to have a beer with that. And actually, by being bold and

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being the first person to say, I'm going to have a non-alcoholic alternative, you watch the relief

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go round that table because everyone else is going, oh, thank God I don't have to drink either.

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It's great. It's almost like peer pressure, isn't it? And then, but do you still get that peer

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pressure? So let's say you're out and, you know, someone's like, I don't know, pouring wine or

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whatever it is, and then you say, oh, no, I don't drink anymore, or I'm okay. Will they be like,

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oh, go and have wine, it's not going to cause any harm? Do you find you get that kind of a response

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still? That is fascinating. I'm getting it less and less and less now. So many more people,

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a lot of times I'm saying, no, no, no, thank God I'm not drinking now. And then every now and then I say,

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oh, I don't drink. And people are like, oh yeah, okay, why? You'll tell me more. And more people

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have got questions, more people are interested in learning what you're drinking. Can I try one

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of those instead? More people are interested in how you're doing it than getting grief anymore.

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Yeah. I think it's also now people know that people don't want to be that guy or girl giving

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the grief. Like it's a bit embarrassing to be that person who's sat there going, go and have a drink,

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it's so boring. Yeah, that's your 20s. You didn't do that. You know, you get to do that.

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That's your 20s. And that's also just like a sign of your priorities. And I say that like real harsh,

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because I believe that it's like, if you're pressuring me to drink, that's because you are

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feeling insecure about the level of alcohol that you are consuming. So you should look at that.

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You want someone to drink with. You don't actually necessarily want my company or my connection.

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But you know, you say it's interesting about the 20s, is that when you go back to the UK now,

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like people in their 20s are doing it as well. People are choosing the non-alcoholic getting

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into the pub, they're choosing the non-alcoholic alternative, and they're not getting shit from

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their friends. Which is great. I love that generational shift exists. Right? It's as much

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as I love that younger women are lifting weights and getting visible muscles and not feeling shame

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about it. I love that young women are not drinking as much alcohol. That is fabulous. And it's funny

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you mentioned about the curiosity about 0% alternatives. We were just at this glorious

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wedding in Austria with a group that drinks, okay, this group drinks. But what was cool is that they

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were providing 0% alternatives to their signature drinks at the wedding. So they had like a Mai Tai

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and a 0% Mai Tai. And you'll laugh, my husband and I were drinking the 0% and they put it down

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in front of us. We each take a sip. And my husband's like, I got a regular one. I was like, no,

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that's how good they are now. And he's like, no, no, no, no. He's like, he couldn't. He's like,

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no, I promise you the tip out. I was like, bro, that's how good they are now, is that they taste

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legit. So if alcohol for you is about the mixology and the enjoyment and stuff, that's coming back

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too. So you don't even have to miss out on that. Yeah. And there's amazing drinks now that aren't

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trying to be other things either. So really incredible spirits that aren't trying to mimic

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gin and vodka and all the other things. They're just their own thing and they taste amazing.

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Super sophisticated, low in sugar. And it's great. Low calories as well. So if you're on that kind of

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weight loss journey, it's great. It's a win-win. That's what I found. So when I used to drink when

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I was younger, not that I don't drink now, but I don't drink as much now. For me, it's very rare.

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I realized I used to love drinking cocktails and stuff because it was actually the sugar I wanted

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and not the alcohol. And when I cut out sugar from my diet, I realized, well, actually, I don't really

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like the taste of alcohol. So my intake of alcohol has really come down. And yes, sometimes I'll have

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some champagne or I'll have some wine, but it's not regularly enough because wine, I don't like

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the feeling of not being able to sleep. And two, it's not giving me the same feeling as having,

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I don't know, a mojito with like shit loads of sugar in there. Right. Just have a slice of cake

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and call it a day. If you're going for sugar, just do it. And I say that to my kids all the time

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because I obviously don't want them drinking the sugar. Don't drink alcohol. Well, I just drink sugar.

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every single time. Now back to the chat. But you know, I'll say that if you want the sugar,

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I'd rather you ate it than drink it. And so, and I, and you know, the same applies for

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the drinks. And after a while you lose your taste. So like what I found now, if ever like my husband,

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I did Paris Marathon in April and him and my mum bought a bottle of champagne to toast me. And I

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was like, okay, fine. And it was my favourite champagne. I was like, how is it? And I used to

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love it. And I was like, you know, I'm just going to have a little sip. I'm just going to try a

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little bit. And like I had a little sip and I was like, no. And it's so funny. It's like all I could

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taste now is ethanol. It tastes so strong for me that I'm like, I just can't. Yeah. It's not

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pleasurable anymore. And I think anyone who's made a switch in healthy eating patterns kind of feels

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the same way, right? Something that you eliminate for quite a long time actually is less and less

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desirable. And again, that's a positive change in our brains, right? That's something that helps

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support your journey, which actually leads me to a question I'm dying to ask you, right? So you're

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two years sober, right? Two and a half. Is it for life? Are you comfortable saying I am done with

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alcohol? Yeah, I think so. I think so. I think, you know, I couldn't tell you my exact date. I think

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a lot of people count the clocks. If I go back, I would probably say it was that whole party with

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the lifestyle that I drive. But I haven't kind of counted the clocks and had that pressure.

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It just, it doesn't serve me in any way whatsoever. Fair point. And I think what I kind of want to

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clarify for your listeners is like, I wasn't drinking a lot. Like I was maybe drinking once

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a week and I'd have one or two drinks. But that small amount was just enough to give me one or

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two bad nights sleep, to affect my anxiety, to make me overthink things at work, stress about stuff,

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to move me, not have patience with the kids, for me to not train properly for a couple of days.

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It was such a small amount. And that was why it was so shocking to me, because the difference

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that it made. Because, you know, so many people say, okay, you know, one or two drinks, however

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many units a week is fine. But actually, it was such a small amount that was throwing me off.

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It wasn't the big, the big night out, of course, made me feel horrible. Yeah, but they were three

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day hangovers that you can't manage. But you do that once a quarter. It was actually just one or

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two drinks a week. As soon as I would get back to normal, I'd have a couple of drinks, I'd be back

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down again. Were you tracking? Like, do you have like a watch which will show, you know, how

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your sleep was? Yeah, like was there anything that showed? I was doing the poll, and so doing my

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HRV in the morning. And that was just, yeah, like the results were shocking. From one drink.

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From one drink. I just want to really emphasize that. Yeah, because obviously there's a dose

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response. So more is worse. Yeah. But none is the only way. Yeah. Right. To not have an effect.

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Yeah. And I think, and I think the other thing is, it wasn't instant, right? So it's like, of

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course, I didn't feel the hangover, but it took time. It took months and months for me to start

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actually, for it to really, for the penny drop, and for me to actually realize how much better

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I was feeling. And it was just, it was incremental. But over time, the difference has just been

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completely transformational. Yeah. Are there times that it's harder? Are there certain occasions

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where you're like, I would have a drink here? Like when I think about my own journey habits,

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right? Like I was just in Germany, like an ice cold, fresh fruit, German beer. Yeah. Hard to pass

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up for me. Are there moments that are hard for you? It's that summer feeling when everybody is,

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it's cool, and everyone goes to the beer garden, and you're like in Australia or in the UK,

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and it's sunny, and the energy is just amazing and warm, and everyone's like, sometimes I'm like,

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but I will always give my number one advice to anybody who is trying to cut down on quit.

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Make your first drink a non-alcoholic. So I have like a non-alcoholic wine or beer or whatever.

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Oh my God, Amanda, have you heard? Little Farms now has six restaurants all across Singapore,

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including their all-day dining concept in Sentosa. Oh, yes, I heard. And I love that each restaurant

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offers a consistent menu and dining experience, while also featuring exclusive dishes that reflect

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the unique vibe of the neighborhood they're in. Little Farms is definitely my go-to brunch place,

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and honestly, I love their coffee. Oh, and you know that they're open all day, right? Their new dinner

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menu has me drooling. We're talking dishes like rendang lamb shank, organic chicken and cauliflower

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rice, and sesame tuna tataki with soba, and much more. And let's not forget about their weekly

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restaurant deals. They've got one-for-one on small plates every Tuesday, happy hour on Thursday,

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and my personal favorite, kids eat free on Sundays. Now, Little Farms just needs to go to Book It Tima.

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Plus, we have an exclusive offer for our listeners. Save 10% off your online shop at

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littlefarms.com with the code 4010 when you spend a minimum of $100. Now, back to the chat.

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As soon as you have that first drink, it takes the edge off. You won't want to switch over. You very

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rarely want to switch over to alcohol. And so it's a really good tip to anyone. The first tip is be

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the first to order. Set the trend for the table, and then the second is, or you'll make your first

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drink an alcoholic one. That's amazing. I've never thought about, I mean, to be fair, not that I drink

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that much anyway, but I think if I was out in a situation where everyone was drinking, I think

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that would be like the cue to be like, actually, I've been all right with my drink, but I have been

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drinking, so I don't need the next one. Because it's usually the first drink which kind of starts it

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all off, and then your inhibitions come down, and then you're like, oh, that's all right.

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So then you lose your decision-making ability, and you're like, okay, I'll just get another one.

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Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think, you know, I mentioned I was just in Germany, right? I think

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even, you know, other cultures are already way down the line on this. So the German beer garden

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that I was referring to, there was already a 0% option on the menu. Like, it's already there.

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It's all over Europe, right? It's like, I feel like Singapore is a bit slower. We got 0% higher

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than we can, and you know, probably we won't have them as a sponsor now. You know, not the tastiest

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choice. But I think that's what my husband says, that he has tried to switch out to the non-alcoholic

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beer, and he just says it just doesn't do it justice. And my tip was, you need to go a little

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bit of time without drinking anything, so that when you do have that drink, it then, you've

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almost forgotten what the real taste of wine tastes like. Do you think it's kind of stupid?

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I think that's a good theory, but I would actually go the other way and say he just hasn't found one.

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That works. He hasn't found one. It's amazing. So here in

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Singapore, freakspirit.com, they're amazing. They're a non-alcoholic bottle shop. Emma and Betts are

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amazing. And they curate everything, so you know that you're getting something that's going to

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taste great, that's great quality. And they also, on their website, they have a map of where they

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distribute to you. So they don't just sell direct to consumer, they sell into hospitality as well.

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So their website, they've got hundreds of different places all over Singapore where you can

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go and get a good non-alcoholic or some other drink that they're selling.

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That's very, very cool. Make it easier to find.

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Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and it's a craft beer as well. Some of them are just so good. And the hardest

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thing I find with Heineken is what Heineken do is they say, buy Heineken, I'm going to throw Heineken

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zero in for free. And so a lot of the bars and restaurants are going, well, I'm getting my

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zero percent beer for free. I've got a zero percent on the menu tick.

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Got it. So it's like, so, you know, they're kind of monopolizing the market, but because of that,

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people feel that that's the only option and that option maybe isn't as good as something,

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incredible option. It's definitely the most widely available option here right now. And that's a

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shame, like I said, because other places are doing it way better. So Singapore, catch up.

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And it's just like pushing back on hospitality. Like, give it one choice. Like, this isn't like

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10, 15 years ago when you had one vegetarian option on the menu. There you go. As always,

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eggplant parmesan. Which I quite like to hear. Oh, but they vary in quality. Yeah. And that's it.

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You can't just have like one non-alcoholic drink and think you've ticked the box. Like,

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people do one variety and the more you have, the more people are going to order.

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When you first gave up or even now, did you find that you started drinking maybe more Coke or

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lemonade and more of the sugary drinks just to kind of compensate? No, so I'm not a fizzy drink

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drinker. So I never have been, even as a kid, I was like that weird child that didn't like

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McDonald's and didn't like fizzy drinks. So I've never really had that. I never moved over.

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I did, I was experimenting with a lot of the non-alcoholic alternatives. I've kind of got this

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huge non-alcoholic bar at home. I would always be looking for like low sugar options. Just wanted

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to keep my sugar low and I'm not very good with caffeine either. So I didn't want anything like

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loaded with caffeine. I got really into like kombucha and I was also thinking about soda-ly.

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I love soda-ly. I drink one every night. Yeah. To like prebiotic sodas, you know, low sugar, low

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calories and they're great. So I think it's just going out there trying all these like amazing

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drinks. Yeah. Now there's so many options now. And I think that our listeners definitely can,

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it from around the world, can start exploring some of their own territories as well. Yeah.

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What's your opinion on like dry January, sober October, like these like little 30-day

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experiments with sobriety? Like is that something that you think is a great gateway to trying

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sobriety or just kind of something that like makes you them binge at the end?

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Okay.

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Two points. That's the first. That's what's amazing. I've met so many people that I've met

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that was the gateway to long-term sobriety. Okay. And people rose to challenge it. It also started

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for charity as well. So I think there's just that point to know that people were doing it to raise

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money and people still do it to raise money. So I think if you've got those two goals, that goal in

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mind, it's something to be just mindful of. That being said, I've never succeeded at dry January

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and sober October where I tried for so many years and just never, never managed to get it. I think

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the longest I did was 28 days. Yeah. So close. I know, but do you want to know what it was? It's

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like I was coming, particularly dry January, I was coming at it from a place of deprivation.

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So what it was, it was like I'm doing dry January to almost punish myself from a gluttonous December,

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from overdoing it, from drinking and eating too much, from feeling like a scoff and just,

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and it was coming from a place like I'm taking this thing away almost to punish myself for

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overdoing it in December. And then you've got this countdown going on in the back of your mind like,

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oh, I can drink in this many days. And you're just miserable the whole time because you're

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seeing it as taking away joy, as taking away, especially off the back of Christmas at such a

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merry time. I think I just heightened it a little bit more. So for anyone who's doing it, I think

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you just need to change your mindset going into dry January. What are you gaining from this?

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And really maybe spending some time educating yourself on alcohol during that time. There's

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some incredible books and resources out there. You go and listen to Huberman's episode on alcohol

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and read How to Quit Alcohol in the World. How to Quit Drinking in the World, obsess with alcohol.

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We'll link to it below. By Holly Whitaker or Sober Cure is by Ruby Warrington. Some of these books

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just changed my entire perspective on it. So if you are going to do dry January, maybe spend a

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little bit of time listening to some sobriety podcasts or alcohol-free podcasts and reading

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some books because I think the more information that you've got, the more it's going to change

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your reason for doing it and change your why for doing it. And that's the thing. I think why is the

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key because I think most people, like you said, are like, I can't have alcohol, but I really want

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to as opposed to I don't want to have it. And those two very simple ways of looking at it can

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make such a big difference in how you approach those next 31 days. And like you said, no one

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likes the feeling of deprivation, right? As nutritionists, we see this all the time. Nobody

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likes to have something taken away. But if you see it as an experiment during which you use that time

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to add education to your life, right? To read something, to listen to something, then it's not

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so much deprivation exercise as an experiment in what if, right? And what if I knew more?

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Yeah. And it's also trying to get to the heart of what you think you're depriving yourself of.

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That's right. So for me, like, oh, on the surface it was alcohol, but actually when I started to

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really analyze it, it was human connection. Like I drank to be connected to my friends, like my

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family, my loved ones. I drank to feel happy. I drank for connection. I never ever drank alone

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at home. Like I wasn't always in that social situation. And then you start to think, well,

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how can I have connection without alcohol? How can I have connection without alcohol? What are

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the things that I can do with my friends and family that don't involve alcohol? You know,

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if you're not ready to go and sit in a bar and drink a non-alcoholic alternative, when you start

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to think about actually what is it that you're getting from drink that's not the alcohol of high,

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then you can go and start trying to speak that out in other places. And then that's when you start

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planning. So if you're going to get through January, plan. Like, you know, fill every weekend with fun

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things that you might really look forward to doing that just don't involve alcohol.

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Massages and spa days. You don't need to drink for those times. Yeah, those make those things

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worse. The two things you just mentioned are worse with alcohol. I know. So for a friend's 40th,

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we went for a brunch, massage. I can't remember which way around. I think we did the brunch first,

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alcoholic brunch followed by a massage. And both occasions, I was vomiting.

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're literally like swirling the alcohol around your sister.

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And that's also, you know, we were talking off air and I hope you don't mind me disclosing this now,

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but you are only 38, right? And you went sober 36, 35 and a half. Yes. Yes. Somewhere in there.

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So, you know, you are still young, right? So this is one of those things where it's like,

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honestly, it's an act of maturity to re-examine your social connections, right? How do we connect

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to each other and why is it revolving around alcohol? If that's a big struggle for you,

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right? What is it about your social group that relies so hard on alcohol? If that's the issue,

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right? And I think as we get older into our 40s, it's easier, you're more empowered to kind of

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peel back the onion of what is authentic human connection and set some of the boundaries that

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might be tough. And I think that's one of the first things you mentioned, you know, about like

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starting this journey is you have to just be comfortable saying, I'm not drinking. And the

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more you say it, the easier it gets. It really does. And I think the, just coming back to have

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that connection is almost when you were saying it then, it sounds like, you know, you might have to

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re-evaluate your relationships with your friendships. I think some of that is in your head as well.

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I honestly thought that like my parents are a big drinker, they're really fun and they love to drink,

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but I thought that they wouldn't want to spend time with me or love me anymore. I thought my

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husband wouldn't love me anymore because we used to drink together. I thought my friends wouldn't

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want to hang out with me anymore. I thought in giving up alcohol, I was going to be alone and

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it was going to change my life. And even though I might feel physically better, like am I going to

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have those connections anymore? But it just wasn't the case, you know, as soon as I stopped drinking,

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you know, my friends were still there. We were so, you know, my husband, of course, loved me even

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more probably. Because now you're a designated driver. Exactly. Have you found that your husband

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is naturally drinking less now because you're not drinking together? And my parents and my friends.

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So you've had a positive impact on the lives of those around you. Exactly. And it's so funny now

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because my husband's like an amazing cook. So, you know, on Sundays we'll have barbecues and

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drive people around. People love coming over and they say they love coming over, not just my husband's

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amazing food. But because on a Sunday, they don't feel any pressure to like have a drink or like

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they can come and hang out with friends without it having to be a late night, without it having to

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be like a barbecue where you're just knocking them back. They just really enjoy spending time with

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us. And it's like, again, your connection naturally becomes more authentic and more real. And then the

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other thing is you just attract new people. Naturally, you attract more people who are on

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your wavelength. You're having richer conversations, people who are spending time doing more interesting

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things because they've got the capacity to do more interesting things. And that's what happened with

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me. Like over time, more and more of myself became available to start making, this does sound really,

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really cheesy, but start making some of my dreams a reality. Because, you know, I'd always now wanted

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to run a marathon, but I didn't have capacity. You know, I wanted to start a podcast. I didn't have

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the capacity. And I don't think I've realized how much one or two drinks a week can be holding me back.

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Yeah, I love that. And then again, I think that's a message that needs to be said again and again,

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right? Is that it's not about taking anything away from you. And in fact, consider a future where

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you actually have a richer life because of your choice to not drink alcohol. All right, before we

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finish, I need to ask you that question I wanted to circle back through from the very first thing,

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mothering, parenting. Okay, so this is one of the biggest roadblocks I think women hit when they're

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thinking about trimming down their alcohol use. It's like, but drinking is how I get through

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the day with my kids. Or it's what I earn for getting through a day with my kids. And you and

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I are in the same boat. I mean, Jasmine, absolutely to an extent, right? You got a five and three,

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I got a four and three and a baby. You've got two twins and nine and they're all boys. So let's,

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let's all say we have a lived experience of what a stressful day with little kids is like.

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How do you offer some directions to the moms who are like, I need this right now in this season?

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There is nothing worse than waking up with a dusty head and having to take care of your children.

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Like there is nothing worse. They thought of it as making sure.

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You know, you wake up on a Sunday morning and you can't function. You just want to stay in bed and

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eat McDonald's and you feel horrible. And you've got two little people to take care of. First of

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all, physically you feel disgusting, but then you feel like a disgusting human being because you're

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like, I'm letting my children down. I'm letting myself down. This is not the moment I want to be.

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And it's like, I just, yeah, I like, I hung onto that feeling. So whenever I got to the end of

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the day, I think, oh, I just want to have a wine. It was actually, no, because what's the impact that's

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going to have in the morning? What's the impact that's going to have on my sleep if I'm going to

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be up three or four times a night with a child? It's a downward spiral. You know, like you're

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talking there, like you want to stay in bed, you want to eat McDonald's, you're going to put the

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kids in front of the TV so they're not doing anything productive. And in fact, it's not just

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affecting you, it's affecting them as well. Yeah. And again, so much of that is just habit as well.

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Like it's that, and you've got yourself into that, you know, it's a habit, I'm going to pour myself

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a glass of wine thinking it takes the edge off. It doesn't, you know, it's only going to cause

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more anxiety and make you feel worse, you know, within a few hours of drinking it. So I think

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00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:22,400
there's also an education piece that like educate yourself on the real impact of how that glass of

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wine is really making you feel, not just what society and culture has told us to make you feel,

373
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because we've all seen the movies and the TV shows where the mum comes in and pours herself a glass

374
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:39,280
of wine and that's how we unwind from the day. But that's not actually what happens in your body

375
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:45,200
when you have that glass of wine. And again, I talk about non-alcoholic alternatives, but you pour

376
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:51,200
yourself a glass of non-alcoholic wine, some of that will have a placebo effect of just having

377
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:57,920
that habit and that ritual will be enough to take the edge off. You are absolutely correct, by the

378
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:02,560
way. That is such a great parallel, which is like, you know, we have to dissect the messages we've

379
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:08,880
been fed in anything, right, from the media. And then we consider, is it the ritual? Is it the habit?

380
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:13,680
Or is it literally the ethanol? And the answer we all know, right? It's much more toward the first

381
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:19,920
side. And you know, there is, we always get this one as well, but I have a great tolerance.

382
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:26,720
Alcohol doesn't affect me. And it's like, but it does. Yeah. And there's this, if you ever read

383
00:34:26,720 --> 00:34:31,520
like Alan Carr's books, he does come up with a non-smoking non-drinking and he's got one specifically

384
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:37,360
for women. And it stopped drinking for women. And he talks like about the big monster and the little

385
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:42,480
monster. So your little monster is the cravings that you will have for the substance. Let's just

386
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:47,120
say it could be sugar, it could be alcohol, and it's good alcohol. When you stop drinking for like

387
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:51,680
a period of time, that completely goes away. You know, within a week or two weeks, like that, that

388
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:57,120
physical craving, it goes away. Especially when it's something that you really doesn't want or need.

389
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:03,360
It's the big monster. And with addiction, it's the big monster. It's the lies that we have told

390
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:10,320
ourselves around that substance that keep you feeding it. So it's that I need to drink at the

391
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:14,800
end of the day to unwind. I deserve a drink because I've worked really hard. This is how we

392
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:20,320
connect, we celebrate, we commiserate. Like all of these lies that culture, society, previous

393
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:28,560
generations, the movies have all told us, have fed into this. And it's so hard to rewire your brain

394
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:34,800
and change that thinking. But I think once you can crack it, once you do and you realize all of those

395
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:42,400
different signs and points that you're like, oh right, okay, actually, when I'm feeling this craving,

396
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:47,520
like the beer garden, when I want a glass of roe day, it's just a moment that I've been conditioned

397
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:53,520
to associate with drink. I guess sometimes it could just be you just want that alone time.

398
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:58,720
So that ritual of sitting there, you know, with your drink, just a bit of time to decompress.

399
00:35:58,720 --> 00:36:02,480
And I just hadn't thought, I thought, oh, wouldn't it be interesting? Like I drink lots of sparkling

400
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:07,200
water and I drink sadly in the evenings. What if you just put it into a wine glass? There you go.

401
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:13,600
You know, and again, sad alone. Yeah, because that's basically after, you know, having that whole day

402
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:18,800
with your kids, you probably just need a bit of time to let it go. And actually what I like doing

403
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:23,040
in the evenings is I'll take my dog for a walk, put a podcast on, and I've noticed now that I'm

404
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:29,120
walking longer and longer. So I've gone from doing 10,000 steps around my neighborhood to now doing

405
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:33,680
like 17,000 steps in the day. To get further and further away from your children.

406
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:40,240
Okay. Hey, did I tell you that? It's all amazing. I'll walk to the end of the earth.

407
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:45,120
All right, now, well, again, I mentioned earlier that you are a young buck in here in the 40s

408
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:49,680
formula. You're not quite yet 40, but we are so going to ask you our summary question that we ask

409
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:53,520
every guest. And maybe you can just maybe give some advice for women that you've interacted with in

410
00:36:53,520 --> 00:37:00,240
their 40s, right? What is your 40s formula? What do you tell women who are looking to truly

411
00:37:00,240 --> 00:37:07,280
thrive in this decade? Yeah. First of all, I'm very excited about it. I've heard it's one of the best

412
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:17,840
decades. I'm looking forward to it. I think for me, it's going to be about kind of owning my choices,

413
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:24,720
like making those decisions and being really confident in who I am and the decisions that I'm

414
00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:32,560
going to make. So I think every year you just kind of get better and better. Like no one told me that

415
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:37,680
in my 20s, but like genuinely, like the more you learn, the more you know, the more confident you

416
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:42,080
are going to become and the more happy you're going to become in yourself. And so I think it's

417
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:48,000
really just looking at those, owning those decisions, being confident in my ability to

418
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:53,600
make those decisions and yeah, sticking with it. Nailed it, girl. I love it. That's something we

419
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:57,760
stand for here in the 40s. Yeah, there's no ships given, right? No ships given decade. That's right.

420
00:37:58,720 --> 00:38:02,000
Well, Michelle, thank you so much for joining us today. You've been a wealth of information for

421
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:06,800
our listeners and we hope to have you on again soon. I would love to. Thank you. Thank you so much.

422
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:12,960
Bye. Thanks. Want more from the 40s formula? Every Friday, we'll be sending our For Play

423
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:18,400
Friday newsletter direct to your inbox with four hot topics, tips and trends personally curated by

424
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:23,840
Jasmine and Amanda. All you need to do is visit the 40s formula.com and sign up with your email

425
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:34,000
address. That's the F O R T I E S formula.com. This is Paul, our editor. He's a 25 year old

426
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:38,800
unmarried Singaporean guy listening to the ramblings of 12 older women on everything from

427
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:44,080
menopause to weightlifting to sex. So Paul, what's your thoughts on today's conversation?

428
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:54,720
Sobriety, sobriety, sobriety. Sorry, just can't do a decision in life and respectfully, I hold a

429
00:38:54,720 --> 00:38:59,680
slightly different opinion, you know, with the taste, the few good vibes, the dopamine hit and

430
00:39:00,240 --> 00:39:07,280
the company, company of friends and people that are just all too good to pass. So I'm so sorry.

431
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,720
Alcohol sobriety is just not for me. So cheers.

432
00:39:10,720 --> 00:39:13,280
Guys, you know how much we love coffee. And if you want to show us some love, you know, you can get

433
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:41,040
us one. Just visit buy me a coffee.com slash the 40s formula. Cheers.

434
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:46,640
You can also stay updated with the 40s formula by following us on Instagram at the 40s formula.

435
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:52,560
All one word. We share behind the scenes insights, episode updates and much more. So please be sure

436
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:56,880
to hit that follow button. We appreciate your time and support. Thank you for being part of this

437
00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:01,040
community. And we'll be back next week for more empowering conversations with inspiring guests.

438
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:17,040
Bye.

439
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:45,040
Oh,

440
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:51,200
amazing. Again, you're so big because you also have a podcast, right? You're so good at giving

441
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:55,760
us little information snacks that people want to hear. Like, this is literally what you do.

442
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,680
First drink, not alcohol. You know, it's like, here's exactly what you're not like the theory

443
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:05,360
of what you might do. Then you will have more success. Yeah. I've just like, I've written a book

444
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:10,800
and I'm just kind of in the process of like getting it edited. How to drink this. Yes, girl.

445
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:18,480
Amazing. That's just, you know, like, everyone just comes in it from sobriety and it's from

446
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,920
the price of deprivation. And so many people are like, well, that's addiction. That's not me.

447
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:27,200
That's not relevant to me. But a lot of people are like, how to drink this and still have fun,

448
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:32,400
you know, and still have social connections, still have a professional job in Japan, you know,

449
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:37,520
and all these things, right? Yeah. Exactly. My husband, he's in that place now. He knows

450
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:42,480
he's got high blood pressure. He needs to sort it out. He's like, but work. And he works with a bunch

451
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:49,200
of, you know, 40, 50 year old men, maybe some are 60, where that is the culture. And that is all they

452
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:54,400
know. Whereas I feel like the younger generation is definitely better at it. In the next 10 years,

453
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:59,200
that they'll be out of it. It's totally different. It's just going to take like one or two.

454
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:03,120
Yeah. I think for your friend though, like, oh, you're applying. It's really hard,

455
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,960
it's particularly in Japan and Korea where there is a big drinking culture. You don't leave until

456
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:11,520
the bar shows and everything else. Yeah. It's a respect. Like there's a respect issue going on

457
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:16,880
there. I think she's 55 herself, meaning like she's super senior. Yeah. So if she's at the top and

458
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:22,240
she's got to start making those changes. Thank you so much. But you know, I think maybe it's

459
00:42:22,240 --> 00:42:26,880
an underpacking of like, okay, well, also what's the worst that can happen, right? What happens?

460
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:31,600
You accept client, you do some business. Do you not go out with clients then who are more aligned

461
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:36,080
to the values of you and your company? Yeah. Something that people need to look at is like,

462
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:52,880
what is the values of the company?