massages and spa days.
Yeah, you don't need to drink for those times.
Yeah, those make those things worse.
Like the two things you've just mentioned are worse with alcohol.
Oh, I know. So for a friend's 40th, we went for a brunch, massage,
and both occasions I was vomiting.
Yeah.
So I was on an uneasy bed for a while.
You're literally like swirling the alcohol around your sister.
Hey, hey, and welcome to the 40s Formula, your go-to place for insightful discussions
on navigating the 40s and thriving in this transformative decade.
We're your hosts, Jasmine and Amanda, two women that are passionate about exploring
the challenges and adventures that come with turning 40 and what lies ahead.
Michelle O'Brien spent over 15 years building communities and content marketing strategies
for global brands like Disney, Coca-Cola, Samsung, and Mercedes-Benz.
Until plot twist, she changed her profession, went completely alcohol-free,
and realized that life could be better than ever.
For Michelle, drinking less isn't about deprivation. It's liberation.
Her personal journey to alcohol-free living fueled a passion for helping others discover
the joy and freedom of sobriety, which she does via her own podcast, The Upward Spiral.
Michelle's mission is to share the secrets of feeling good,
connecting authentically, and having more fun without booze.
So in past seasons of the 40s Formula, we have had doctors, we have had coaches,
we have had wellness professionals of all ilk touching on the topic of alcohol.
But today is the first day that we're actually interviewing someone who is fully and proudly
sober, so we're so happy to have you with us, Michelle. Thank you. I feel like, wow,
I'm in good company. Amazing. I would consider myself sober curious, and again, I don't even
know if I'm using that term correctly, but someone who has significantly decreased their
alcohol load in the past three to five years. But the more I get into metabolic health and
longevity research, the more I realize that this is a growing movement and it needs to be.
Can you describe for us the moment or the series of moments where it clicked for you that you had
to stop alcoholic life? Yeah. Okay. I love this question because everyone, a lot of people,
not everyone, but everyone, a lot of people assume that you have to hit a rock bottom
to give up alcohol. And a lot of people assume that you have to have a problem to have stopped
drinking. And that wasn't the case for me as well. I think the journey of this started about 10
years ago. I was living in London, working at advertising, very much a work hard, play hard
culture. And I was trapped in that cycle. And I could recognize that this wasn't good for me and
I needed to get out. So I left, moved to Asia, one way ticket to Asia and then moved to Singapore.
And it was brilliant. But I continue to drink. I continue to drink because it's part of our
culture. And it's how we connect with people. It's how we meet people. I was an ex-pat here
with my husband. This is how we found our friends. I drank a lot less than when I did in London,
but it took me another eight years to completely quit alcohol. I had children, my kids were five
and three. And then I got COVID hit. So during that period, obviously kind of drinking stopped
for one period. For some? For others it named them 100%. But yes, during COVID it kind of went
one or two ways, I think for a lot of people. And coming out of COVID, I was like, I want to start
getting my life back and it's not going to my friends. Went out a couple of times, one or two
drinks would feel dreadful. And my tolerance was low. I was throwing on outside of taxis.
With two drinks? Two or three drinks. Yeah. Not being able to drink to the level that I used to
and just absolutely hating it. I really felt like I was forcing myself to drink. And there was a
number of occasions where you're with groups of friends and they're like, just have a drink.
I thought I'm really kind of forcing myself. And I think I just kind of came to that realization
that they just wasn't serving me anymore. I think alongside that, I had a very stressful job.
So I was working at Disney. I was working on the launch of Disney Plus for eight markets. We had
back-to-back launches. I had a one and a three-year-old at home at the time. And I was training for the
Singapore Marathon. Wow. And I was like, I just had this feeling in the back of my mind that I
wasn't reaching my full potential. That no matter how hard I was trying, I just was like 95% there.
And I was like, something's holding me back. And I couldn't put my finger on what it was.
And with the marathon coming up, I thought, no, I'm not going to drink for six months.
I'm going to train, get my hair down, and I'll drink. And after a month, two months into it,
I started to notice a massive difference in my training, in my patience with my children,
in my ability to do my job, that my stress level was a little better, my sleep was better.
And I just realized that actually all it took was kind of removing alcohol to make such an incredible
difference. And that has only escalated as time has gone on. Oh, girl. There are so many parts of
that I want to unpack. We're going to unpack the patience with kids thing a bit later, because I
think that's a real strong note that moms especially need to hear. But I want to circle back to the
very first thing you said about living in London, drinking a ton, having a career, drinking as part
of the career. I was talking to you off air about a client that I saw yesterday that is 55 years old.
She feels that she needs alcohol. And she said this as much because professionally, her job demands
it. And because she does so much business in the Japan and Korea markets, if she was visibly not
drinking alcohol, that that would be a problem. How would you talk to someone like that, who really
does she really does for her own health, want to cut down, but feels that she cannot? Yeah, I hear
this all the time, and particularly, you know, in Asia, particularly in certain sectors, people are
just, you know, they come to me and they're like, I really want to drink less, I want to stop. And
for me, a lot of these people are actually in senior leadership roles. Yes. And that's got to
start at the top, that change has got to start somewhere and it's got to start with somebody.
And if you're in a position, you know, you think, yeah, you might not be the CEO, you might not be
at the very top, but change has to come from somewhere. And I always find, for me, that when
I'm out with colleagues or I'm doing business, that if I make sure I'm the first person to order a
drink, and I will order a non-alcoholic alternative, maybe a non-alcoholic beer. And by being the first
person, I would guarantee you that at least 50% of the table will order a non-alcoholic option.
Because most people don't want to drink either. Most people want to go home with their family.
Most people want to feel good and have a good night's sleep, get up and train and do whatever.
But they are caught, there's habit, you know, that habit of I'm just going to order a wine,
they're doing what everybody else around the table does. So it's like, okay, well, everyone else is
drinking a beer, so I feel like I need to have a beer with that. And actually, by being bold and
being the first person to say, I'm going to have a non-alcoholic alternative, you watch the relief
go round that table because everyone else is going, oh, thank God I don't have to drink either.
It's great. It's almost like peer pressure, isn't it? And then, but do you still get that peer
pressure? So let's say you're out and, you know, someone's like, I don't know, pouring wine or
whatever it is, and then you say, oh, no, I don't drink anymore, or I'm okay. Will they be like,
oh, go and have wine, it's not going to cause any harm? Do you find you get that kind of a response
still? That is fascinating. I'm getting it less and less and less now. So many more people,
a lot of times I'm saying, no, no, no, thank God I'm not drinking now. And then every now and then I say,
oh, I don't drink. And people are like, oh yeah, okay, why? You'll tell me more. And more people
have got questions, more people are interested in learning what you're drinking. Can I try one
of those instead? More people are interested in how you're doing it than getting grief anymore.
Yeah. I think it's also now people know that people don't want to be that guy or girl giving
the grief. Like it's a bit embarrassing to be that person who's sat there going, go and have a drink,
it's so boring. Yeah, that's your 20s. You didn't do that. You know, you get to do that.
That's your 20s. And that's also just like a sign of your priorities. And I say that like real harsh,
because I believe that it's like, if you're pressuring me to drink, that's because you are
feeling insecure about the level of alcohol that you are consuming. So you should look at that.
You want someone to drink with. You don't actually necessarily want my company or my connection.
But you know, you say it's interesting about the 20s, is that when you go back to the UK now,
like people in their 20s are doing it as well. People are choosing the non-alcoholic getting
into the pub, they're choosing the non-alcoholic alternative, and they're not getting shit from
their friends. Which is great. I love that generational shift exists. Right? It's as much
as I love that younger women are lifting weights and getting visible muscles and not feeling shame
about it. I love that young women are not drinking as much alcohol. That is fabulous. And it's funny
you mentioned about the curiosity about 0% alternatives. We were just at this glorious
wedding in Austria with a group that drinks, okay, this group drinks. But what was cool is that they
were providing 0% alternatives to their signature drinks at the wedding. So they had like a Mai Tai
and a 0% Mai Tai. And you'll laugh, my husband and I were drinking the 0% and they put it down
in front of us. We each take a sip. And my husband's like, I got a regular one. I was like, no,
that's how good they are now. And he's like, no, no, no, no. He's like, he couldn't. He's like,
no, I promise you the tip out. I was like, bro, that's how good they are now, is that they taste
legit. So if alcohol for you is about the mixology and the enjoyment and stuff, that's coming back
too. So you don't even have to miss out on that. Yeah. And there's amazing drinks now that aren't
trying to be other things either. So really incredible spirits that aren't trying to mimic
gin and vodka and all the other things. They're just their own thing and they taste amazing.
Super sophisticated, low in sugar. And it's great. Low calories as well. So if you're on that kind of
weight loss journey, it's great. It's a win-win. That's what I found. So when I used to drink when
I was younger, not that I don't drink now, but I don't drink as much now. For me, it's very rare.
I realized I used to love drinking cocktails and stuff because it was actually the sugar I wanted
and not the alcohol. And when I cut out sugar from my diet, I realized, well, actually, I don't really
like the taste of alcohol. So my intake of alcohol has really come down. And yes, sometimes I'll have
some champagne or I'll have some wine, but it's not regularly enough because wine, I don't like
the feeling of not being able to sleep. And two, it's not giving me the same feeling as having,
I don't know, a mojito with like shit loads of sugar in there. Right. Just have a slice of cake
and call it a day. If you're going for sugar, just do it. And I say that to my kids all the time
because I obviously don't want them drinking the sugar. Don't drink alcohol. Well, I just drink sugar.
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every single time. Now back to the chat. But you know, I'll say that if you want the sugar,
I'd rather you ate it than drink it. And so, and I, and you know, the same applies for
the drinks. And after a while you lose your taste. So like what I found now, if ever like my husband,
I did Paris Marathon in April and him and my mum bought a bottle of champagne to toast me. And I
was like, okay, fine. And it was my favourite champagne. I was like, how is it? And I used to
love it. And I was like, you know, I'm just going to have a little sip. I'm just going to try a
little bit. And like I had a little sip and I was like, no. And it's so funny. It's like all I could
taste now is ethanol. It tastes so strong for me that I'm like, I just can't. Yeah. It's not
pleasurable anymore. And I think anyone who's made a switch in healthy eating patterns kind of feels
the same way, right? Something that you eliminate for quite a long time actually is less and less
desirable. And again, that's a positive change in our brains, right? That's something that helps
support your journey, which actually leads me to a question I'm dying to ask you, right? So you're
two years sober, right? Two and a half. Is it for life? Are you comfortable saying I am done with
alcohol? Yeah, I think so. I think so. I think, you know, I couldn't tell you my exact date. I think
a lot of people count the clocks. If I go back, I would probably say it was that whole party with
the lifestyle that I drive. But I haven't kind of counted the clocks and had that pressure.
It just, it doesn't serve me in any way whatsoever. Fair point. And I think what I kind of want to
clarify for your listeners is like, I wasn't drinking a lot. Like I was maybe drinking once
a week and I'd have one or two drinks. But that small amount was just enough to give me one or
two bad nights sleep, to affect my anxiety, to make me overthink things at work, stress about stuff,
to move me, not have patience with the kids, for me to not train properly for a couple of days.
It was such a small amount. And that was why it was so shocking to me, because the difference
that it made. Because, you know, so many people say, okay, you know, one or two drinks, however
many units a week is fine. But actually, it was such a small amount that was throwing me off.
It wasn't the big, the big night out, of course, made me feel horrible. Yeah, but they were three
day hangovers that you can't manage. But you do that once a quarter. It was actually just one or
two drinks a week. As soon as I would get back to normal, I'd have a couple of drinks, I'd be back
down again. Were you tracking? Like, do you have like a watch which will show, you know, how
your sleep was? Yeah, like was there anything that showed? I was doing the poll, and so doing my
HRV in the morning. And that was just, yeah, like the results were shocking. From one drink.
From one drink. I just want to really emphasize that. Yeah, because obviously there's a dose
response. So more is worse. Yeah. But none is the only way. Yeah. Right. To not have an effect.
Yeah. And I think, and I think the other thing is, it wasn't instant, right? So it's like, of
course, I didn't feel the hangover, but it took time. It took months and months for me to start
actually, for it to really, for the penny drop, and for me to actually realize how much better
I was feeling. And it was just, it was incremental. But over time, the difference has just been
completely transformational. Yeah. Are there times that it's harder? Are there certain occasions
where you're like, I would have a drink here? Like when I think about my own journey habits,
right? Like I was just in Germany, like an ice cold, fresh fruit, German beer. Yeah. Hard to pass
up for me. Are there moments that are hard for you? It's that summer feeling when everybody is,
it's cool, and everyone goes to the beer garden, and you're like in Australia or in the UK,
and it's sunny, and the energy is just amazing and warm, and everyone's like, sometimes I'm like,
but I will always give my number one advice to anybody who is trying to cut down on quit.
Make your first drink a non-alcoholic. So I have like a non-alcoholic wine or beer or whatever.
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As soon as you have that first drink, it takes the edge off. You won't want to switch over. You very
rarely want to switch over to alcohol. And so it's a really good tip to anyone. The first tip is be
the first to order. Set the trend for the table, and then the second is, or you'll make your first
drink an alcoholic one. That's amazing. I've never thought about, I mean, to be fair, not that I drink
that much anyway, but I think if I was out in a situation where everyone was drinking, I think
that would be like the cue to be like, actually, I've been all right with my drink, but I have been
drinking, so I don't need the next one. Because it's usually the first drink which kind of starts it
all off, and then your inhibitions come down, and then you're like, oh, that's all right.
So then you lose your decision-making ability, and you're like, okay, I'll just get another one.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think, you know, I mentioned I was just in Germany, right? I think
even, you know, other cultures are already way down the line on this. So the German beer garden
that I was referring to, there was already a 0% option on the menu. Like, it's already there.
It's all over Europe, right? It's like, I feel like Singapore is a bit slower. We got 0% higher
than we can, and you know, probably we won't have them as a sponsor now. You know, not the tastiest
choice. But I think that's what my husband says, that he has tried to switch out to the non-alcoholic
beer, and he just says it just doesn't do it justice. And my tip was, you need to go a little
bit of time without drinking anything, so that when you do have that drink, it then, you've
almost forgotten what the real taste of wine tastes like. Do you think it's kind of stupid?
I think that's a good theory, but I would actually go the other way and say he just hasn't found one.
That works. He hasn't found one. It's amazing. So here in
Singapore, freakspirit.com, they're amazing. They're a non-alcoholic bottle shop. Emma and Betts are
amazing. And they curate everything, so you know that you're getting something that's going to
taste great, that's great quality. And they also, on their website, they have a map of where they
distribute to you. So they don't just sell direct to consumer, they sell into hospitality as well.
So their website, they've got hundreds of different places all over Singapore where you can
go and get a good non-alcoholic or some other drink that they're selling.
That's very, very cool. Make it easier to find.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and it's a craft beer as well. Some of them are just so good. And the hardest
thing I find with Heineken is what Heineken do is they say, buy Heineken, I'm going to throw Heineken
zero in for free. And so a lot of the bars and restaurants are going, well, I'm getting my
zero percent beer for free. I've got a zero percent on the menu tick.
Got it. So it's like, so, you know, they're kind of monopolizing the market, but because of that,
people feel that that's the only option and that option maybe isn't as good as something,
incredible option. It's definitely the most widely available option here right now. And that's a
shame, like I said, because other places are doing it way better. So Singapore, catch up.
And it's just like pushing back on hospitality. Like, give it one choice. Like, this isn't like
10, 15 years ago when you had one vegetarian option on the menu. There you go. As always,
eggplant parmesan. Which I quite like to hear. Oh, but they vary in quality. Yeah. And that's it.
You can't just have like one non-alcoholic drink and think you've ticked the box. Like,
people do one variety and the more you have, the more people are going to order.
When you first gave up or even now, did you find that you started drinking maybe more Coke or
lemonade and more of the sugary drinks just to kind of compensate? No, so I'm not a fizzy drink
drinker. So I never have been, even as a kid, I was like that weird child that didn't like
McDonald's and didn't like fizzy drinks. So I've never really had that. I never moved over.
I did, I was experimenting with a lot of the non-alcoholic alternatives. I've kind of got this
huge non-alcoholic bar at home. I would always be looking for like low sugar options. Just wanted
to keep my sugar low and I'm not very good with caffeine either. So I didn't want anything like
loaded with caffeine. I got really into like kombucha and I was also thinking about soda-ly.
I love soda-ly. I drink one every night. Yeah. To like prebiotic sodas, you know, low sugar, low
calories and they're great. So I think it's just going out there trying all these like amazing
drinks. Yeah. Now there's so many options now. And I think that our listeners definitely can,
it from around the world, can start exploring some of their own territories as well. Yeah.
What's your opinion on like dry January, sober October, like these like little 30-day
experiments with sobriety? Like is that something that you think is a great gateway to trying
sobriety or just kind of something that like makes you them binge at the end?
Okay.
Two points. That's the first. That's what's amazing. I've met so many people that I've met
that was the gateway to long-term sobriety. Okay. And people rose to challenge it. It also started
for charity as well. So I think there's just that point to know that people were doing it to raise
money and people still do it to raise money. So I think if you've got those two goals, that goal in
mind, it's something to be just mindful of. That being said, I've never succeeded at dry January
and sober October where I tried for so many years and just never, never managed to get it. I think
the longest I did was 28 days. Yeah. So close. I know, but do you want to know what it was? It's
like I was coming, particularly dry January, I was coming at it from a place of deprivation.
So what it was, it was like I'm doing dry January to almost punish myself from a gluttonous December,
from overdoing it, from drinking and eating too much, from feeling like a scoff and just,
and it was coming from a place like I'm taking this thing away almost to punish myself for
overdoing it in December. And then you've got this countdown going on in the back of your mind like,
oh, I can drink in this many days. And you're just miserable the whole time because you're
seeing it as taking away joy, as taking away, especially off the back of Christmas at such a
merry time. I think I just heightened it a little bit more. So for anyone who's doing it, I think
you just need to change your mindset going into dry January. What are you gaining from this?
And really maybe spending some time educating yourself on alcohol during that time. There's
some incredible books and resources out there. You go and listen to Huberman's episode on alcohol
and read How to Quit Alcohol in the World. How to Quit Drinking in the World, obsess with alcohol.
We'll link to it below. By Holly Whitaker or Sober Cure is by Ruby Warrington. Some of these books
just changed my entire perspective on it. So if you are going to do dry January, maybe spend a
little bit of time listening to some sobriety podcasts or alcohol-free podcasts and reading
some books because I think the more information that you've got, the more it's going to change
your reason for doing it and change your why for doing it. And that's the thing. I think why is the
key because I think most people, like you said, are like, I can't have alcohol, but I really want
to as opposed to I don't want to have it. And those two very simple ways of looking at it can
make such a big difference in how you approach those next 31 days. And like you said, no one
likes the feeling of deprivation, right? As nutritionists, we see this all the time. Nobody
likes to have something taken away. But if you see it as an experiment during which you use that time
to add education to your life, right? To read something, to listen to something, then it's not
so much deprivation exercise as an experiment in what if, right? And what if I knew more?
Yeah. And it's also trying to get to the heart of what you think you're depriving yourself of.
That's right. So for me, like, oh, on the surface it was alcohol, but actually when I started to
really analyze it, it was human connection. Like I drank to be connected to my friends, like my
family, my loved ones. I drank to feel happy. I drank for connection. I never ever drank alone
at home. Like I wasn't always in that social situation. And then you start to think, well,
how can I have connection without alcohol? How can I have connection without alcohol? What are
the things that I can do with my friends and family that don't involve alcohol? You know,
if you're not ready to go and sit in a bar and drink a non-alcoholic alternative, when you start
to think about actually what is it that you're getting from drink that's not the alcohol of high,
then you can go and start trying to speak that out in other places. And then that's when you start
planning. So if you're going to get through January, plan. Like, you know, fill every weekend with fun
things that you might really look forward to doing that just don't involve alcohol.
Massages and spa days. You don't need to drink for those times. Yeah, those make those things
worse. The two things you just mentioned are worse with alcohol. I know. So for a friend's 40th,
we went for a brunch, massage. I can't remember which way around. I think we did the brunch first,
alcoholic brunch followed by a massage. And both occasions, I was vomiting.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're literally like swirling the alcohol around your sister.
And that's also, you know, we were talking off air and I hope you don't mind me disclosing this now,
but you are only 38, right? And you went sober 36, 35 and a half. Yes. Yes. Somewhere in there.
So, you know, you are still young, right? So this is one of those things where it's like,
honestly, it's an act of maturity to re-examine your social connections, right? How do we connect
to each other and why is it revolving around alcohol? If that's a big struggle for you,
right? What is it about your social group that relies so hard on alcohol? If that's the issue,
right? And I think as we get older into our 40s, it's easier, you're more empowered to kind of
peel back the onion of what is authentic human connection and set some of the boundaries that
might be tough. And I think that's one of the first things you mentioned, you know, about like
starting this journey is you have to just be comfortable saying, I'm not drinking. And the
more you say it, the easier it gets. It really does. And I think the, just coming back to have
that connection is almost when you were saying it then, it sounds like, you know, you might have to
re-evaluate your relationships with your friendships. I think some of that is in your head as well.
I honestly thought that like my parents are a big drinker, they're really fun and they love to drink,
but I thought that they wouldn't want to spend time with me or love me anymore. I thought my
husband wouldn't love me anymore because we used to drink together. I thought my friends wouldn't
want to hang out with me anymore. I thought in giving up alcohol, I was going to be alone and
it was going to change my life. And even though I might feel physically better, like am I going to
have those connections anymore? But it just wasn't the case, you know, as soon as I stopped drinking,
you know, my friends were still there. We were so, you know, my husband, of course, loved me even
more probably. Because now you're a designated driver. Exactly. Have you found that your husband
is naturally drinking less now because you're not drinking together? And my parents and my friends.
So you've had a positive impact on the lives of those around you. Exactly. And it's so funny now
because my husband's like an amazing cook. So, you know, on Sundays we'll have barbecues and
drive people around. People love coming over and they say they love coming over, not just my husband's
amazing food. But because on a Sunday, they don't feel any pressure to like have a drink or like
they can come and hang out with friends without it having to be a late night, without it having to
be like a barbecue where you're just knocking them back. They just really enjoy spending time with
us. And it's like, again, your connection naturally becomes more authentic and more real. And then the
other thing is you just attract new people. Naturally, you attract more people who are on
your wavelength. You're having richer conversations, people who are spending time doing more interesting
things because they've got the capacity to do more interesting things. And that's what happened with
me. Like over time, more and more of myself became available to start making, this does sound really,
really cheesy, but start making some of my dreams a reality. Because, you know, I'd always now wanted
to run a marathon, but I didn't have capacity. You know, I wanted to start a podcast. I didn't have
the capacity. And I don't think I've realized how much one or two drinks a week can be holding me back.
Yeah, I love that. And then again, I think that's a message that needs to be said again and again,
right? Is that it's not about taking anything away from you. And in fact, consider a future where
you actually have a richer life because of your choice to not drink alcohol. All right, before we
finish, I need to ask you that question I wanted to circle back through from the very first thing,
mothering, parenting. Okay, so this is one of the biggest roadblocks I think women hit when they're
thinking about trimming down their alcohol use. It's like, but drinking is how I get through
the day with my kids. Or it's what I earn for getting through a day with my kids. And you and
I are in the same boat. I mean, Jasmine, absolutely to an extent, right? You got a five and three,
I got a four and three and a baby. You've got two twins and nine and they're all boys. So let's,
let's all say we have a lived experience of what a stressful day with little kids is like.
How do you offer some directions to the moms who are like, I need this right now in this season?
There is nothing worse than waking up with a dusty head and having to take care of your children.
Like there is nothing worse. They thought of it as making sure.
You know, you wake up on a Sunday morning and you can't function. You just want to stay in bed and
eat McDonald's and you feel horrible. And you've got two little people to take care of. First of
all, physically you feel disgusting, but then you feel like a disgusting human being because you're
like, I'm letting my children down. I'm letting myself down. This is not the moment I want to be.
And it's like, I just, yeah, I like, I hung onto that feeling. So whenever I got to the end of
the day, I think, oh, I just want to have a wine. It was actually, no, because what's the impact that's
going to have in the morning? What's the impact that's going to have on my sleep if I'm going to
be up three or four times a night with a child? It's a downward spiral. You know, like you're
talking there, like you want to stay in bed, you want to eat McDonald's, you're going to put the
kids in front of the TV so they're not doing anything productive. And in fact, it's not just
affecting you, it's affecting them as well. Yeah. And again, so much of that is just habit as well.
Like it's that, and you've got yourself into that, you know, it's a habit, I'm going to pour myself
a glass of wine thinking it takes the edge off. It doesn't, you know, it's only going to cause
more anxiety and make you feel worse, you know, within a few hours of drinking it. So I think
there's also an education piece that like educate yourself on the real impact of how that glass of
wine is really making you feel, not just what society and culture has told us to make you feel,
because we've all seen the movies and the TV shows where the mum comes in and pours herself a glass
of wine and that's how we unwind from the day. But that's not actually what happens in your body
when you have that glass of wine. And again, I talk about non-alcoholic alternatives, but you pour
yourself a glass of non-alcoholic wine, some of that will have a placebo effect of just having
that habit and that ritual will be enough to take the edge off. You are absolutely correct, by the
way. That is such a great parallel, which is like, you know, we have to dissect the messages we've
been fed in anything, right, from the media. And then we consider, is it the ritual? Is it the habit?
Or is it literally the ethanol? And the answer we all know, right? It's much more toward the first
side. And you know, there is, we always get this one as well, but I have a great tolerance.
Alcohol doesn't affect me. And it's like, but it does. Yeah. And there's this, if you ever read
like Alan Carr's books, he does come up with a non-smoking non-drinking and he's got one specifically
for women. And it stopped drinking for women. And he talks like about the big monster and the little
monster. So your little monster is the cravings that you will have for the substance. Let's just
say it could be sugar, it could be alcohol, and it's good alcohol. When you stop drinking for like
a period of time, that completely goes away. You know, within a week or two weeks, like that, that
physical craving, it goes away. Especially when it's something that you really doesn't want or need.
It's the big monster. And with addiction, it's the big monster. It's the lies that we have told
ourselves around that substance that keep you feeding it. So it's that I need to drink at the
end of the day to unwind. I deserve a drink because I've worked really hard. This is how we
connect, we celebrate, we commiserate. Like all of these lies that culture, society, previous
generations, the movies have all told us, have fed into this. And it's so hard to rewire your brain
and change that thinking. But I think once you can crack it, once you do and you realize all of those
different signs and points that you're like, oh right, okay, actually, when I'm feeling this craving,
like the beer garden, when I want a glass of roe day, it's just a moment that I've been conditioned
to associate with drink. I guess sometimes it could just be you just want that alone time.
So that ritual of sitting there, you know, with your drink, just a bit of time to decompress.
And I just hadn't thought, I thought, oh, wouldn't it be interesting? Like I drink lots of sparkling
water and I drink sadly in the evenings. What if you just put it into a wine glass? There you go.
You know, and again, sad alone. Yeah, because that's basically after, you know, having that whole day
with your kids, you probably just need a bit of time to let it go. And actually what I like doing
in the evenings is I'll take my dog for a walk, put a podcast on, and I've noticed now that I'm
walking longer and longer. So I've gone from doing 10,000 steps around my neighborhood to now doing
like 17,000 steps in the day. To get further and further away from your children.
Okay. Hey, did I tell you that? It's all amazing. I'll walk to the end of the earth.
All right, now, well, again, I mentioned earlier that you are a young buck in here in the 40s
formula. You're not quite yet 40, but we are so going to ask you our summary question that we ask
every guest. And maybe you can just maybe give some advice for women that you've interacted with in
their 40s, right? What is your 40s formula? What do you tell women who are looking to truly
thrive in this decade? Yeah. First of all, I'm very excited about it. I've heard it's one of the best
decades. I'm looking forward to it. I think for me, it's going to be about kind of owning my choices,
like making those decisions and being really confident in who I am and the decisions that I'm
going to make. So I think every year you just kind of get better and better. Like no one told me that
in my 20s, but like genuinely, like the more you learn, the more you know, the more confident you
are going to become and the more happy you're going to become in yourself. And so I think it's
really just looking at those, owning those decisions, being confident in my ability to
make those decisions and yeah, sticking with it. Nailed it, girl. I love it. That's something we
stand for here in the 40s. Yeah, there's no ships given, right? No ships given decade. That's right.
Well, Michelle, thank you so much for joining us today. You've been a wealth of information for
our listeners and we hope to have you on again soon. I would love to. Thank you. Thank you so much.
Bye. Thanks. Want more from the 40s formula? Every Friday, we'll be sending our For Play
Friday newsletter direct to your inbox with four hot topics, tips and trends personally curated by
Jasmine and Amanda. All you need to do is visit the 40s formula.com and sign up with your email
address. That's the F O R T I E S formula.com. This is Paul, our editor. He's a 25 year old
unmarried Singaporean guy listening to the ramblings of 12 older women on everything from
menopause to weightlifting to sex. So Paul, what's your thoughts on today's conversation?
Sobriety, sobriety, sobriety. Sorry, just can't do a decision in life and respectfully, I hold a
slightly different opinion, you know, with the taste, the few good vibes, the dopamine hit and
the company, company of friends and people that are just all too good to pass. So I'm so sorry.
Alcohol sobriety is just not for me. So cheers.
Guys, you know how much we love coffee. And if you want to show us some love, you know, you can get
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Bye.
Oh,
amazing. Again, you're so big because you also have a podcast, right? You're so good at giving
us little information snacks that people want to hear. Like, this is literally what you do.
First drink, not alcohol. You know, it's like, here's exactly what you're not like the theory
of what you might do. Then you will have more success. Yeah. I've just like, I've written a book
and I'm just kind of in the process of like getting it edited. How to drink this. Yes, girl.
Amazing. That's just, you know, like, everyone just comes in it from sobriety and it's from
the price of deprivation. And so many people are like, well, that's addiction. That's not me.
That's not relevant to me. But a lot of people are like, how to drink this and still have fun,
you know, and still have social connections, still have a professional job in Japan, you know,
and all these things, right? Yeah. Exactly. My husband, he's in that place now. He knows
he's got high blood pressure. He needs to sort it out. He's like, but work. And he works with a bunch
of, you know, 40, 50 year old men, maybe some are 60, where that is the culture. And that is all they
know. Whereas I feel like the younger generation is definitely better at it. In the next 10 years,
that they'll be out of it. It's totally different. It's just going to take like one or two.
Yeah. I think for your friend though, like, oh, you're applying. It's really hard,
it's particularly in Japan and Korea where there is a big drinking culture. You don't leave until
the bar shows and everything else. Yeah. It's a respect. Like there's a respect issue going on
there. I think she's 55 herself, meaning like she's super senior. Yeah. So if she's at the top and
she's got to start making those changes. Thank you so much. But you know, I think maybe it's
an underpacking of like, okay, well, also what's the worst that can happen, right? What happens?
You accept client, you do some business. Do you not go out with clients then who are more aligned
to the values of you and your company? Yeah. Something that people need to look at is like,
what is the values of the company?