1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,120 So, you know, male brains are also fluctuating based on testosterone fluctuating. 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:10,760 So just set that aside to think that males are like these sort of stable, steady, you 3 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:15,280 know, like there's no such thing as like, you know, emotional men who are the ones that 4 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:20,240 like drive up the back of you really close and do all that stuff in a car and like who 5 00:00:20,240 --> 00:00:22,040 start fights and wars, etc. 6 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:25,000 I don't think it's the women of the emotional ones here. 7 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:27,840 Yeah, sounds a little hysterical to me. 8 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:34,280 I think that men can be like big boys, you know, babies, not even boys, you know. 9 00:00:50,480 --> 00:00:54,800 Hey, hey, and welcome to the 40s Formula, your go-to place for insightful discussions 10 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:59,040 on navigating the 40s and thriving in this transformative decade. 11 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:02,960 We're your hosts, Jasmine and Amanda, two women that are passionate about exploring 12 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:08,560 the challenges and adventures that come with turning 40 and what lies ahead. 13 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:20,320 Dr. Sarah McKay is a neuroscientist and renowned science communicator with a talent for making 14 00:01:20,320 --> 00:01:24,680 brain science accessible to enhance health, wellbeing and performance. 15 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:31,680 A graduate of Oxford University, Dr. Sarah holds an MSc and a PhD in neuroscience. 16 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:35,880 After moving to Australia, she spent five years conducting postdoctoral research on 17 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:42,160 spinal cord injury before founding ThinkBrain, an online platform dedicated to professional 18 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,520 development in applied neuroscience and brain health. 19 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:51,800 In 2019, Sarah took to the screen presenting an ABC catalyst episode on brain health, biohacking 20 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:53,360 and longevity. 21 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:57,880 She is also the author of two acclaimed books, the Wellness Brain Book, the Neuroscience 22 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:01,880 of Health, Hormones and Happiness and Baby Brain, the surprising neuroscience of how 23 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:07,160 pregnancy and motherhood sculpt our brains and change our minds for the better. 24 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:11,520 Her upcoming third book, part of the iconic For Dummies series, will focus on brain health 25 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:15,280 and is set to release in early 2025. 26 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:19,040 Sarah's work has been featured in numerous outlets, including the Wall Street Journal, 27 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:23,960 The Guardian, Sydney Morning Herald, Australian Women's Weekly and more. 28 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:29,920 She has shared her insights on SBS Insights, ABC Radio National, Mamma Mia and various 29 00:02:29,920 --> 00:02:35,280 other platforms, as well as on stages like Business Chicks and Canberra Writers Festival. 30 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:39,480 Sarah lives on Sydney's northern beaches with her husband and two teenage sons, where 31 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:43,160 they enjoy surfing, sailing and ocean swimming. 32 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:46,960 Today we're diving into what I think is the most fascinating aspect of our health, our 33 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:52,920 brains, and here to help us unravel the mysteries of our mind, we have Dr Sarah McKay. 34 00:02:52,920 --> 00:02:53,920 Welcome Dr Sarah. 35 00:02:53,920 --> 00:02:56,440 Hello, hi, thanks for having me. 36 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:57,920 Oh, it's our pleasure. 37 00:02:57,920 --> 00:02:58,920 Thank you for joining us today. 38 00:02:58,920 --> 00:03:04,760 Before we kick off, I know that your book, Demystifying the Female Brain, is not about 39 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:10,520 the differences between men and women's brain, but I am intrigued. 40 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:15,160 Can you tell by looking at a scan whether you are looking at a female brain, a male 41 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:22,720 brain and can you also see whether you would be able to determine whether someone is non-binary 42 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:25,760 or how they identify just from the scan? 43 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:30,360 So, if I was to just like, say I was a surgeon, before we get to the brain scan, say I was 44 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:37,120 a surgeon and I was to open up a skull and look inside and look at a bunch of brains 45 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:41,000 and the people were covered from the eyes down, couldn't see who they were by their 46 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:44,920 bodies, we wouldn't be able to look at a brain and go, that's male, that's female, it's not 47 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:47,520 like they're pink or blue. 48 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:54,520 You might see, if you were looking at them at 100 brains or so, you might start to get 49 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:59,040 a little bit of a feel that some of them are a bit bigger than others and you might go, 50 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:04,080 well the big ones are probably more likely to be male brains than female brains because 51 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:10,560 on average, if you looked at 100 brains, on average the male brains might be 10% or so 52 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:14,800 larger, but you might get really big female brains and really tiny male brains too. 53 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:17,880 So you know, think about normal distribution curves. 54 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:22,880 That like from the outside in is the kind of the largest clear sex difference that we 55 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:29,360 see but we certainly can't sort brains based on size just by looking at them from the outside. 56 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:35,920 Now brain scanning technology and data sharing and analysis has changed like extraordinarily 57 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,400 within the last five to ten years. 58 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:42,800 So for a long time there we would, you know, scan a brain and you would do all of the data 59 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:46,960 analysis looking at the size and the shape and the connections, etc. 60 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:51,800 And you might have an MRI researcher who could like scan say 20 brains over the course of 61 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:57,840 a month and they'd be analyzing all of the data based, you know, with their Excel spreadsheets. 62 00:04:57,840 --> 00:05:02,440 And even then we might not really get any, be able to see any clear differences particularly 63 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:04,720 if we were looking at brain structure. 64 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:12,420 If we started to look at brain function, sometimes perhaps we might see differences in connectivity 65 00:05:12,420 --> 00:05:17,320 but again it's not very clear and we can't kind of sort pink, blue, pink, blue, pink, 66 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:18,320 blue. 67 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:22,160 What we have been able to start to do recently is now scientists have started to kind of 68 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:27,000 collaboration share like what we tell kids in primary school to do and they're pooling 69 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:31,000 all of like their data together into large biobanks. 70 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:35,000 So instead of, you know, one scientist studying 17 brains here and another if they were really 71 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:39,680 lucky had 40 to study, people are pooling their data together and we can now look at 72 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:44,640 like 10,000 brain scans that can all get pulled into a data bank and then scientists can like 73 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:49,660 pull that data out and analyze it using, not just using an Excel spreadsheet, maybe using 74 00:05:49,660 --> 00:05:52,960 machine learning and AI now to analyze that. 75 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:59,840 And we will, and there's a lot of power in numbers and so that has started to show very 76 00:05:59,840 --> 00:06:05,840 subtle differences that can be picked up by artificial intelligence when you've got thousands 77 00:06:05,840 --> 00:06:09,360 and thousands and thousands of brain scans. 78 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:13,120 I don't know about you Jasmine, but one of the main questions I get from nutrition clients 79 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:15,680 is where to grab a healthy meal when they're out and about. 80 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:20,560 Oh, all the time and they're often happy to hear me recommend Guzmín y Gómez where clean 81 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:21,560 is the new healthy. 82 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:27,000 GYG serves up honest clean eats, no preservatives, no artificial flavors, no added colors and 83 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,160 no unacceptable additives. 84 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:30,320 Basically no nasties. 85 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:33,920 And that's part of the reason why I feel good bringing my family to GYG for a quick meal 86 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:34,920 too. 87 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:35,920 My boys love it. 88 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:39,320 Plus I know they're getting fresh, 100% clean food. 89 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:41,040 And it's seriously good stuff. 90 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,760 The salsas and marinades are actually sourced from Mexico. 91 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:46,140 So every bite has authentic Mexican flavors. 92 00:06:46,140 --> 00:06:49,080 And as a native Californian, I can verify that is legit. 93 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:52,400 Oh, you've got me hungry for my fave protein packed burrito bowl. 94 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,520 I love that I can double up on the protein to make it even more nutritious. 95 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:57,320 I'm a burrito bowl gal too. 96 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:02,200 Extra spicy with double maramundi for me and super easy to get since there are 18 locations 97 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:06,080 all over the island with online and social media delivery options too. 98 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:08,080 We know where we're headed after the podcast. 99 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:10,720 Now back to the chat. 100 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:16,000 So that's a different kind of way of thinking, can we see male or female brain differences? 101 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:20,360 The thing is when we're looking at differences, we're looking at, you know, are we looking 102 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:21,360 at size? 103 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,280 Are we looking at a specific part of the brain? 104 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:25,280 How it's kind of organized? 105 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:29,520 Are we zooming in and looking at like different parts of the brain and how they function? 106 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:33,120 Obviously in a female brain, there's a part of the brain that's evolved with ovulation. 107 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,680 You know, I haven't got that part of the brain in a male, but could you look at it and see 108 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:37,680 difference? 109 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:42,760 Could you sort of zoom on in with your microscope and perhaps look at different kind of levels 110 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,920 of chemicals or where neurons are organized? 111 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:46,920 Maybe. 112 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:51,480 So the differences that we're starting to see are these very subtle differences, but 113 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:55,440 they can really only be picked up when you're looking at many thousands of people. 114 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:58,800 We've then got this other problem. 115 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:02,080 Typically what we do when we're looking at people's brains is we're looking at what we 116 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:03,560 call like kind of weird populations. 117 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:08,880 We're looking at like white, you know, white male college students from America, because 118 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:12,640 they're typically the people that might volunteer for these studies. 119 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:17,320 We're not kind of looking at the diversity that we would see across the global population 120 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:19,600 in terms of brains. 121 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:26,420 So when we start to think about differences, we tend to think it's biological sex only 122 00:08:26,420 --> 00:08:29,560 that would be driving any difference we see. 123 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:33,280 And biological sex differences tend to get amplified at puberty. 124 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:37,440 So if we're looking at children's brains, we're not really seeing many differences. 125 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:41,920 Differences that we might start to see might start slightly to emerge at puberty a little 126 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:42,920 bit. 127 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:45,160 But there's a whole lot of other stuff going on. 128 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,900 So I was talking yesterday, I actually posted something on Instagram about this. 129 00:08:48,900 --> 00:08:57,800 This interesting study was published in 2013 looking at how experiences of gender and gender 130 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:07,080 equality and sort of different socioeconomic climates in countries influence brain differences. 131 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:09,840 And this is interesting because they kind of ranked a whole lot of different countries 132 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:11,960 by gender equality within that country. 133 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:17,040 So countries like Sweden and Finland and Germany, you know, are scoring really, really high 134 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:21,360 on gender equality and countries that are worse on gender equality at places like India 135 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:22,360 and Turkey. 136 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,420 So you can kind of get us get a ranking of countries. 137 00:09:25,420 --> 00:09:31,720 And what they found was that in countries with more gender inequality, male and female 138 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:33,800 brains were more different. 139 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:34,800 Wow. 140 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:39,160 In countries with more gender equality, where males and females are more equal, their brains 141 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:40,160 were more similar. 142 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:45,040 And what is interesting is it's not the male's brains in any of those countries that differ. 143 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:50,720 The differences, the women's brains in countries where there's less gender equality are more 144 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:52,480 different to the others. 145 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:57,480 And so here it's not just a biological sex difference that's driving that. 146 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:02,560 It's the gendered experiences that girls and women have as they're growing up in those 147 00:10:02,560 --> 00:10:06,120 countries because, you know, you're kind of growing a brain your whole life. 148 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:11,520 So we're seeing more sex differences in countries where there's less gender equality. 149 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:13,320 So it's not just sex differences that are driving. 150 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:15,720 That's because someone's male, because someone's female. 151 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:21,640 The whole thing about like what is your gender identity is so, so, so new. 152 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:27,120 We have hardly got, we don't, we have got barely any research data in the neuroscience 153 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:28,120 space on that. 154 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:30,400 There have been no studies done this far. 155 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:34,760 There's been, there've been a few little case studies like let's look at this one person, 156 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:39,680 like you've got a kid who wants to transition, give them puberty blockers, whatever, cross 157 00:10:39,680 --> 00:10:40,680 sex hormones. 158 00:10:40,680 --> 00:10:43,480 Let's look, like we looked at like kind of one kid here or there. 159 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:45,640 We have no evidence of what is going on. 160 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:50,000 We have no evidence in terms of gender identity, what that looks like in a brain. 161 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,520 I don't know whether it looks like anything. 162 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:57,680 I don't think it's any different from identifying as a, you know, like I identify as a New Zealand 163 00:10:57,680 --> 00:11:03,520 or an Australian or you might identify as British or Singaporean or American, right? 164 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:07,520 When we're not going to, we can't really kind of pick that sort of thing up in a brain 165 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:08,520 scan. 166 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:14,440 So the whole gender current discussion around gender is very different from what I've just 167 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:19,240 described, gendered experiences of girls growing up with this inequality and adversity and 168 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,160 perhaps lack of education. 169 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:25,720 Jasmine, there is so much information on gut health out there right now. 170 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:29,760 And if we as nutritionists are tired of trying to wade through the oceans of probiotic strains 171 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:33,440 and supplements to figure out what's best for our families, I imagine our listeners 172 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:34,440 are too. 173 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,960 Oh, no doubt they are, which is why I love the simplicity and straightforward science 174 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:41,400 of the berry, tropical and ginger tonics from Akizzi Wellness. 175 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:46,320 Akizzi's prebiotic, probiotic and postbiotic tonics combine all the good stuff. 176 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:51,240 Positive probiotic species, real fruit ingredients and billions of good bacteria in a drink that 177 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:54,320 you can actually feel confident is what your family needs for better health. 178 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:58,240 I actually loved doing a quick shot of the ginger tonic to get my anti-inflammatory benefits 179 00:11:58,240 --> 00:11:59,560 after a big workout. 180 00:11:59,560 --> 00:12:04,520 Oh, and my kids definitely love the sweeter tasting berry, which I love since they get 181 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:07,200 all their polyphenol, brain and digestive health benefits. 182 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:11,640 For me, it's all about that mango passion fruit pineapple tropical tonic packed with 183 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:14,740 antioxidants and beta carotene for my immune system. 184 00:12:14,740 --> 00:12:18,400 It's actually amazing mixed with some sparkling water as a healthy, tasty mocktail at the 185 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:20,920 end of a long day of recording in studio. 186 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:26,760 Our Singapore listeners can get an exclusive 15% off and free shipping with all orders 187 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:30,280 using the code 40s on akizziwellness.com. 188 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:34,560 That's akizzi wellness, A-K-E-S-I wellness dot com. 189 00:12:34,560 --> 00:12:37,640 And now back to the show. 190 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:41,120 And when you say that the brains looked more similar or looked more different, are you 191 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:46,040 referring to specifically the physicality of that brain or are you referring to different 192 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:47,040 reactions? 193 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:52,120 Yeah, I'm looking, I'm specifically referring to the physical sort of structure and volume 194 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:56,760 of certain parts and certain brain regions in those women in countries where they face 195 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:01,980 more adversity and stress and inequality and lack of access to education. 196 00:13:01,980 --> 00:13:05,240 So their brains are less similar to the males. 197 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:08,200 The male's brains anywhere in the world are all the same. 198 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:13,840 The brains that appear to have suffered from, you could call it the patriarchy, the girls 199 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:17,920 and women's brains in those countries with lower gender equality because they haven't 200 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:23,720 had access to the same opportunities, like literally the person and therefore their brain 201 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,980 hasn't had access to the same equal opportunities. 202 00:13:26,980 --> 00:13:31,520 So we're not just seeing here biological sex determining how a brain develops. 203 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,600 It's the environment in which someone grows up. 204 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:40,000 And we know that from other studies that have been done, looking at 10,000, looking at the 205 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:46,400 brain scans of 10,000 kids kind of growing up through infancy childhood through to like 206 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:47,560 kind of early puberty. 207 00:13:47,560 --> 00:13:49,920 We've got data on that. 208 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:54,120 Children who are experiencing more adversity in early childhood, so perhaps they're growing 209 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:59,320 up in a really chaotic family home, they're growing up with abuse, they're growing up 210 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:07,360 with extreme poverty, you know, perhaps they're experiencing war or natural disasters. 211 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:12,160 Those kids' brains will not develop at the same rate as children who don't experience 212 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:13,160 that. 213 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,920 What's really interesting is sometimes their brain age appears to be more advanced. 214 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:24,360 It's almost like their brains have aged faster than the kids who have not faced adversity. 215 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:29,120 If the children have been experiencing complete neglect, often we see their brains ageing 216 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:30,120 slower. 217 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:39,760 So there you're going to be unpacking not only sort of adversity and trauma and socioeconomic 218 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:45,360 class and status, but you've also got the experiences of gender in there. 219 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:51,040 And in many parts of the world, it's girls that are suffering more than the boys, you 220 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:54,800 know, for some of those trauma indicators. 221 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:59,260 So it's really complicated when we want to start to try and be really ask very simple 222 00:14:59,260 --> 00:15:02,800 questions about are the brains different, we have to ask very sophisticated questions, 223 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:05,960 go how different are the differences? 224 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:08,360 What might be potentially driving them? 225 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:10,960 Which population of people are we looking at? 226 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:16,720 You know, like I said, AI could sort male brain, female brain, with a reasonable degree 227 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:21,280 of accuracy, maybe 80% accuracy on the data set it's been trained on. 228 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:28,120 So you train an AI on the UK Biobank data set, which is British people, but then can 229 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:35,320 that AI then sort male, female brain sex differences that's given the data from a Chinese data 230 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:37,880 set or a Brazilian data set? 231 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:41,520 It would need to be trained up on that data set because it might be picking up different 232 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:42,600 differences. 233 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,800 And that would be like the nature nurture sort of difference because depending on where 234 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,560 you grew up, your experiences are very different. 235 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:49,560 It's fascinating. 236 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:50,560 100%. 237 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:55,320 And that's clearly what this gender inequality brain difference study showed. 238 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:59,520 It's not just sex differences that are driving any differences that we see, it's gendered 239 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:05,080 experiences, access to, you know, all of the things that we know that all people need to 240 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:06,080 grow. 241 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:10,320 So when it comes to sort of male female differences, obviously, one of the big things is hormones 242 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:12,640 and menstruating. 243 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:16,380 And you know, you often get the, are you on your period? 244 00:16:16,380 --> 00:16:20,760 Is there any truth to this statement when women are in a bad mood? 245 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:28,080 How does our hormones influence our mood, our emotions during this time? 246 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:33,400 When we look at how brains go through puberty and we're looking at female hormones and male 247 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:39,000 hormones, essentially male and female brains go through puberty and they both go from having 248 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,280 a child's brain to an adult's brain. 249 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:46,060 And that's kind of driven by the sex steroid hormones, primarily testosterone in the boys 250 00:16:46,060 --> 00:16:50,360 and estrogen in the girls, but they kind of follow the same trajectory and get to the 251 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:51,360 same result. 252 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:55,160 It's not like they go like that, they just sort of track along together. 253 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:59,560 But the pubertal hormones are driving that, but it didn't really kind of matter whether 254 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:04,280 you were the male with the testosterone, your brain was sort of patterned in utero to be 255 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:10,680 primed to understand the signal of testosterone and then the female was primed to understand 256 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,280 the signal of estrogen and those two brains kind of end up in the same way. 257 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,880 What we then have is like we've got fluctuations of hormones through the lifespan and there's 258 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:22,200 always this sort of story that females are more fickle in their brains, it's going to 259 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,280 be harder to study brains because they've got cyclical hormones. 260 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:31,600 Well male brains also cycle based on, even if we look at sex steroid hormones, testosterone, 261 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:37,720 their testosterone cycles through the seasons, so you've got high levels in autumn, it cycles 262 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:44,240 based on parenting, so testosterone levels plummet in males when they are active, care 263 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:51,000 giving parents, if they are just there for fertilisation and then bugger off, their testosterone 264 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:55,840 doesn't drop off 9 months later, they have to actually be involved in parenting, it fluctuates 265 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:57,840 during the day. 266 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:04,520 So male brains are also fluctuating based on testosterone fluctuating, so just set that 267 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:09,760 aside to think that males are like these sort of stable steady, there's no such thing as 268 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:17,120 like emotional men who are the ones that drive up the back of you really close and take all 269 00:18:17,120 --> 00:18:20,880 that stuff in a car and who start fights and wars etc. 270 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:24,120 I don't think it's the women that are the emotional ones here. 271 00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:26,680 Sounds a little hysterical to me. 272 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:34,300 I think that men can be like big boys, babies, not even boys. 273 00:18:34,300 --> 00:18:37,600 So Jasmine, I don't know about you but lately I've been struggling to keep up with the grocery 274 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:42,560 shopping between work and the kids and everything in between, it feels impossible to plan healthy 275 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:44,680 meals without constantly running into the store. 276 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:49,920 Oh my god I know exactly what you mean, I feel like I've got everything and then bam 277 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,440 something's missing, so that's why I've started using the meat club. 278 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:55,240 Okay tell me more, this sounds like a total life saver. 279 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:59,660 They deliver high quality meats, fish and fresh fruit and veggies straight to your door, 280 00:18:59,660 --> 00:19:04,560 no more last minute grocery runs or stressing about what to cook and everything is top notch 281 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:07,880 to help you create a healthy and balanced diet for yourself and your family. 282 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,400 They even have a flexible subscription service too. 283 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:14,320 Okay I just had a look and that subscription service sounds amazing, you can get up to 284 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:19,240 15% off your basket, free mince for life on orders over $100. 285 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:25,100 Plus they offer over $160 worth of exclusive perks and give you the flexibility to edit 286 00:19:25,100 --> 00:19:28,040 your cart or change your delivery day anytime. 287 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:33,160 Just head over to the meat club and use our code TFF12 for 12% off your first order. 288 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:39,600 Just visit themeatclub.com.sg and give them a follow on Instagram at themeatclub.sg for 289 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,000 recipes, updates and special offers. 290 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:46,040 Right, now let's get back to the chat. 291 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:49,600 Boys and men aside, I have teenage boys in my house and they're gorgeous and adorable. 292 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:53,320 They are pretty emotionally level, there's not a lot of, let's just say there are not 293 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:54,600 a lot of roller coasters. 294 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,000 Is that caused by hormones or not? 295 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:02,400 I think we have to be really really careful when we look at what creates any kind of emotional 296 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,160 state in anyone at any particular point in time. 297 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,960 And I always say like the brain is receiving a whole lot of data from our bottom up biology 298 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,520 including our hormones, including our menstrual sex hormones. 299 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:16,600 But we're also receiving data you know from like the food we've eaten and our posture 300 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,120 and our muscles and you know how much we've slept or not. 301 00:20:20,120 --> 00:20:24,520 We're receiving streams of data from the outside and world primarily through our visual system 302 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:29,600 because we're very visual mammals but also through what we hear and also smell and taste 303 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:30,680 and touch. 304 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:37,800 And we're receiving so much chaotic information like 20 centimeters from our faces nowadays 305 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:42,120 because what we're doing is like looking at this thing and this is like streaming in a 306 00:20:42,120 --> 00:20:45,600 world war from the, you know a war from the other side of the world that we never, that 307 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:47,720 was on the other side of the world. 308 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:49,240 It always is on the other side of the world. 309 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:54,480 Well it depends where you live whether it's on the other side but 20 years ago it was 310 00:20:54,480 --> 00:21:00,360 beyond the horizon and now it's like in front of your face and you're expected to have an 311 00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:05,880 opinion on it and whatever, respond and react as if it's there. 312 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,840 So there's a lot of information streaming in from the outside world from the rising 313 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:12,400 and setting of the sun to the crap on your phone to the other people you're interacting 314 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,760 with and then we've also got you know our thoughts and our feelings, our psychology, 315 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:19,280 our mind, our expectations, our previous experiences. 316 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:25,160 And all of those inputs at any one moment in time are responding to you know the status 317 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:29,760 in our body and the context of the world we're in and the meaning that we're making of that 318 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,680 to create an emotional state. 319 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:38,880 Yet we tend to focus solely in on one of those little data points as if it is the primary 320 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:43,920 driver of everything that we feel and therefore think and therefore behave and that's often 321 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:48,760 estrogen or maybe progesterone if you're slightly more sophisticated and you're thinking about 322 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:53,760 the female sex steroid hormones. 323 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:59,480 So I always think it's really dangerous if we're going to kind of always listen to just 324 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:05,680 one voice in the crowd or hone in only on that and we are telling girls and we are telling 325 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:11,640 ourselves from puberty that our menstrual cycles are synonymous. 326 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:17,240 If you mix up a menstrual cycle in a brain or a reproductive incident like pregnancy 327 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:22,640 or you know another reproductive transition like menopause that automatically equals dysfunction 328 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:27,480 and decline and emotional instability and quite frankly that's not the case. 329 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:28,480 I do not believe. 330 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,680 I do not think the neuroscience believes that. 331 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:32,800 Social media might have you believe that. 332 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:37,520 So studies of I was really interested in digging into this for my when I wrote my first book 333 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:44,680 and I'm doing a 2025 edition update at the moment so I'm like well down in the weeds 334 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:48,920 of looking at all of that data right now and it's interesting and so I've explained how 335 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,240 brain creates an emotion. 336 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:56,520 There's this story about PMS and depends whether it's the week leading up to your period or 337 00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:02,240 your period depending on kind of which sort of story you tell that women are just useless. 338 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:08,240 We're angry, we're emotional, we're kind of incapable, we're weepy, we're all of the 339 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:13,280 negative emotions because there's only negative emotions there's no positive ones and I was 340 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,120 interested in this and I thought well I'm going to find out what are the rates of the 341 00:23:16,120 --> 00:23:21,600 PMS globally in the world because I better put a number on it and I found this fascinating 342 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:26,360 meta analysis which pulls together data from lots of different parts of the world looking 343 00:23:26,360 --> 00:23:30,920 at rates of PMS reported in different parts of the world and you can see a theme here 344 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,040 in terms of the research I'm interested in. 345 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:37,720 Let's like take a global perspective of what's what's happening and this was fascinating 346 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:42,960 because it depended on which country you looked at what were the rate with the kind of the 347 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:47,720 percentages of women saying oh I have PMS put in the hands up saying yes that's me and 348 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:52,240 France it was like 10% which I think is hilarious because French women they don't take no shit 349 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:58,800 from anyone they're like not like not angry and not sticking up for themselves but 10% 350 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:04,160 of them put their hands up say yes I have PMS and then you go all the way to Iran where 351 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:08,560 it's 90% and then all of the other countries in the world kind of fell somewhere between 352 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:14,160 like 10 and 90 percent and I was like what is going on like 10% to 90% like we can't 353 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:20,120 really narrow it down any further average data at about 50 so I was like if this is 354 00:24:20,120 --> 00:24:28,520 if premenstrual anger and emotional instability is solely driven by hormones why does it vary 355 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:33,280 so much depending on which culture and society and part of the world you you grow up in and 356 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:38,440 you live in so that was interesting so as a woman psychiatrist in New Zealand Sarah 357 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:44,360 Romans has interrogated this and there is a whole lot more kind of data kind of looking 358 00:24:44,360 --> 00:24:50,760 into this as well where if you get women to record their mood in daily life but you don't 359 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,840 tell them what the study's about because you don't like prime people to say this is a study 360 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:59,720 on PMS so tell us that you move in daily life and record it on your phone app and every 361 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:04,640 day will give you emotions to choose from will give you like 10 negative 10 positive 362 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:08,840 and 10 neutral bear in mind if you ask women to self-report emotions they only ever report 363 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:15,480 the negative ones almost as if they haven't got the literacy to expand beyond the 10 negative 364 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:22,920 maybe neutral and then happy which is immediately skews data right so if you like try not skew 365 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:28,440 the data and not skew the expectations we find out that most women in these type of 366 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:33,480 studies are French or at least French like and that it's about 10% of women are showing 367 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:39,000 clear variation of negative mood based on day of menstrual cycle so they put down mood they put 368 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:44,280 down menstrual cycle day they but they were also asked about things like stress and social support 369 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:51,800 and overall health and well-being and what negative emotions tracked most closely to was 370 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:59,080 feeling stressed poor overall well-being not menstrual day but also most strongly social support 371 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:06,440 so French women are pissed off with the man that's you know like a sort of a tri-silly 372 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:13,800 stereotypical way of saying it but but most women when they're blinded to what the study is on and 373 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:18,440 not reporting negative mood that always closely correlates with the menstrual cycle about 10% of 374 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:23,720 women are and what we think in this very this kind of emerges throughout the lifespan that 375 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:28,680 we do have these different groups of women and instead of going oh all women this or all women 376 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:34,200 that or or one in 10 women let's not look at the other nine we've got different kinds of groups of 377 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:43,080 women who have more or less perhaps sensitivity or susceptibility to fluctuations in hormone shifts 378 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:51,080 and that is very very clear that plays out in terms of what we might call pre-menstrual 379 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:59,000 dysmorphia disorder I think that's the serious serious mental health form of of PMS we're seeing 380 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:06,120 sometimes 14% depends which kind of data you're looking at we're seeing that in terms of like 381 00:27:06,120 --> 00:27:12,120 women who are susceptible to strong shifts of hormones at other points in a lifespan like 382 00:27:12,120 --> 00:27:19,800 postnatal depression also depression around menopause we see we see we see this kind of 383 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:26,120 subsets of women some women are much much more susceptible to these shifts and other women are 384 00:27:26,120 --> 00:27:32,680 very very resilient and I think that that's really important to acknowledge that the experiences 385 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:39,080 women are having are real but if we're saying all women everywhere are kind of riding this roller 386 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:45,400 coaster of hormones that we can't get off we're removing a lot of agency for a start what's the 387 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:51,880 point and we're constantly conflating hormones and reproductive status with dysfunction and 388 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:56,600 instability and decline and I don't think that that's what the data shows and that's not how 389 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:02,040 brains function yeah you mentioned that the rate you know from this self-report study was about 390 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:08,120 10% right with no other prompting is that similar to the rates of reported PMDD and the rates of 391 00:28:08,120 --> 00:28:13,080 reported postnatal depression or like are we always looking at around 10% no I wouldn't say 392 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:17,000 these are the exact same groups of women but there are groups of women who are more vulnerable so if 393 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:21,000 we look at like kind of the end of the lifespan like look at say menopause because that's like 394 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:29,080 all anyone talks about nowadays it's just got discovered it's having its movement so women who 395 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:36,120 experience depression through menopause the highest risk of experiencing depression during 396 00:28:36,120 --> 00:28:40,040 menopause are women who have also experienced postnatal depression and perhaps also were 397 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:45,320 experiencing PMDD who have had prior episodes of depression that are related to hormonal shifts 398 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:50,040 that's not to say they are the only woman that might experience depression then or that if you 399 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:56,760 experience that then you are guaranteed to then experience depression at menopause it's just that 400 00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:01,400 we understand these are the risk factors and so there are clearly in some women there are these 401 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:07,640 these kind of biological emotional vulnerabilities when there's big hormone shifts and I think that 402 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:12,440 that's really important because I think especially if we're the mothers of girls and girls are 403 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:19,320 starting to go through puberty and we automatically default to blaming their hormones or blaming their 404 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:27,560 periods on emotional instability or just being grumpy or weepy or whatever we're not teaching 405 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:32,840 them to have any agency over their emotional responses and to look at what else is going on 406 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:37,640 I mean what happens when you're going through puberty like you're usually going from primary 407 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,080 school to high school depending where you are in the world how the school system is structured 408 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:46,440 here in Australia kids are going from primary school to high school at 12 409 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:52,120 12 is 13ish I mean like there's a lot going on when you're when you're 12 and you're going from 410 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:56,280 primary school to high school and your friendship group changes and you're changing your perception 411 00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:00,040 of yourself your perception of your body how other people perceive you your friendship group 412 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:06,280 we know that the emergence of emotional instability through adolescence the 413 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:12,360 the strongest predictor of that is not just when periods start or in boys when puberty begins 414 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:17,960 but how that kid perceives themselves tracking alongside their friendship group 415 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:23,560 so early developing girls are far more vulnerable than late developing girls or girls that develop 416 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:29,080 at the same rate as their peers and the boys who develop early are more vulnerable than late 417 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:33,160 boys who develop earlier are often slightly protected because what happens to them their 418 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,920 social status rises because they're the ones that become the alpha in the group and they're more 419 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:42,760 protected they may kind of go off the rails and like be more vulnerable to risk taking 420 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,320 but they're not typically as emotionally vulnerable as the boy who goes through puberty much later 421 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:53,880 than all of his friends he needs like the the support what about lifestyle choices um in your 422 00:30:53,880 --> 00:31:00,200 book i read that you know as mild uh feelings of depression can attribute to poor lifestyle choices 423 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:05,800 is there anything we can do to sort of help these feelings and what sort of what would you consider 424 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:12,040 as a poor lifestyle choice that could possibly trigger gosh did i use the language poor lifestyle 425 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:19,000 choice i might have to eat that one is that what i said um so i think that that's probably a 426 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:24,280 statement i would rephrase and that i think i believe i said depression comes in many shades 427 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:30,040 of blue and mental health you know there are there are as many potential causes or risk factors for 428 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:35,960 say developing something like mild depression as there would be shades of blue um and we know 429 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:43,400 that you know often what we see when people develop mild depression it's it's kind of situational or 430 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:47,640 it's reactive or it's because you know there was an incredibly stressful event there is a very 431 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:53,080 strong correlation between stressful events whether that's starting high school or you know a parent 432 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:57,640 dying or covered like who didn't find covered stressful and hideous and all the lockdowns who 433 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:03,240 would ever want to go through that again school closures all of the things um that when we've got 434 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:08,840 really stressful events then those who are perhaps more vulnerable are more likely to go on to develop 435 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:12,840 depression it doesn't mean because you weren't doing all of the right things that that's how come 436 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:19,320 you got depressed but we do know when it comes to something like mild mild depression moderate to 437 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:24,440 severe depression typically requires like proper medical help and care and it depends where you 438 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:29,080 are in the world what the kind of access to mental health services are like and kind of you know how 439 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:34,280 you're going to be supported and funneled through that clinical practice guidelines here in Australia 440 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:41,240 say you patch up to your gp and you know say um i wouldn't say something my age because i'm 49 i 441 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:45,400 would fall into a different you know sort of they'll be looking at different causes say you know 442 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:51,400 your your your 18 year old girl and you'd pitch up to your your gp and you're like i've been a bit 443 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:55,560 blue and they're like you know have you just graduated from high school and you headed off 444 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:59,400 to university for the first time you've gone away to halls and you don't really kind of know anyone 445 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:05,320 we're not going to like slap an antidepressant on that problem we need to be supporting the someone 446 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:10,200 they're like this sort of psychosocial kind of finding who they are and finding their feet and 447 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:14,920 finding a good sort of social network and getting this you know sleep sorted you head away from home 448 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,680 for the first time you're probably not eating properly all of your routines are out of whack 449 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:23,800 you know you haven't got your same family networks around you everything has changed it's not because 450 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:31,320 you made poor lifestyle choices but if we can kind of almost ensure that supporting you through 451 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:36,920 that transition are some good healthy lifestyle habits you're going to be more resilient and you 452 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:41,000 might even be able to pull yourself out of that mild depressed state before it kind of heads off 453 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:46,360 into something something far deeper and so there's all of the basics and all the things that mums 454 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:50,040 would be telling their kids and they go off to uni for the first time saying they're not doing 455 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:54,920 so you know it's like making sure you're getting enough sleep um which is really hard and i was a 456 00:33:54,920 --> 00:34:00,280 college student i was out partying all the time um but i had you know great strong social friendship 457 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:08,360 group you know eating good healthy food getting exercise um all of those things so i think that 458 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:12,600 those kind of we call them lifestyle interventions but i think we have to be really careful about that 459 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:18,360 language because it does kind of imply a little bit of kind of moral kind of judgment there like 460 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:22,520 well you didn't make the right choices and look where that got you that's not what the message is 461 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:28,920 the message is let's like put these solid foundations in place and then we're going to 462 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:34,440 be more likely to recover i love that yeah so it sounds like it's more you know as opposed to the 463 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:39,160 absence of these choices you will fail it's more like these choices could be protective why not 464 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:44,360 give them a shot yeah they're going to help and and it entirely depends you know the example i 465 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:50,360 always go depends on the context right i gave during covid like remember like march 2020 i 466 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:56,920 was like we didn't know what was going on we all thought we might die um zombie apocalypse 467 00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:02,760 yeah and then you know you might say well you're you're feeling really stressed if you'll make 468 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:07,960 sure you have your daily walk make sure you go and do your exercise and when your world is filled with 469 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:15,480 uncertainty like and no one had certainty so you couldn't seek certainty from anyone else either 470 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:22,360 so if you went out for your daily walk what you didn't need to do then was go and explore some new 471 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:27,480 bush path you'd never run down before or go wandering around a suburb you'd never been or 472 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:32,040 kind of go and do something new and curious and exciting because there was enough uncertainty 473 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:38,280 without not not knowing what was down the road and around the corner so in those instances if you 474 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:43,880 were to go and exercise i would say follow the same path every day like get the exercise in 475 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:50,280 but if you're following a part a certain path like literally a certain foot path or a path through 476 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:54,440 the bush or whatever i live near the bush so i walk in the bush a lot you know exactly what's 477 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:58,120 coming next you know what's around the corner you're remote you're putting some certainty back in 478 00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:08,760 so simply exercise to help make you feel better works but sometimes we can like kind of tweak 479 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:13,720 how we are how we are you know the choice of exercise i've got a dance class i go to weekly 480 00:36:13,720 --> 00:36:18,200 with all my my friends i'm in a musical theater group i can't single dance i'm basically like 481 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:24,920 as coordinated and graceful as a camel but i'm there for the i've got the vibes and the enthusiasm 482 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:30,920 we just have like so much fun it's exhausting but it is so fun and funny i think that's uh that's a 483 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:38,600 bumper sticker we need there for the vibes um and that's as much for the collective as social laughs 484 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:43,560 that we have and we're not doing a performance for us to get together and dance and and you know at 485 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:47,720 the end of the day if you've got the enthusiasm for it the motivation to do it that's all you need 486 00:36:47,720 --> 00:36:54,200 so many ways you could exercise for mental health although that that's Amanda's game speaking to a 487 00:36:54,200 --> 00:37:00,280 competitive crossfitter but but i hear but i feel you yeah it's it's familiar for me absolutely 488 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:05,480 yeah it's like do crossfit don't do crossfit walk don't walk ride your bike do it you know ocean 489 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:10,040 swim you know i like love ocean swimming everyone who i know who ocean swims at the moment is loving 490 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:14,440 it because there's loads of port jacksons which are a type of shark yeah i definitely would 491 00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:20,600 you know i've got a fear of open water and everyone's oh my god there's so many we call 492 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:25,080 them pj's there's so many pj's everyone's excited sharing photos of all of the sharks that we're 493 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:31,480 seeing lots of people wouldn't find that very exciting and a very fun thrilling way to exercise 494 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:37,000 so it depends right you do what works and so obviously during this sort of time of 495 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:42,520 perimenopause when your hormones are fluctuating can uh hormone replacement therapy and actually 496 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:50,120 having estrogen or even micronized progesterone help with balancing out those mood fluctuations 497 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:56,280 that some women feel do you think there's a place for replacement therapy 100 i'm not at the point 498 00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:03,000 of saying put it in the water but i think that there are enormous benefits in terms of treating 499 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:09,320 symptoms we don't know whether there are despite every social media menopause influencer out there 500 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:13,320 saying you'll live longer and you won't die and you won't get dementia and you won't get heart 501 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:18,440 disease we simply don't have the data where we can clearly say and we certainly do not in the 502 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:27,320 dementia space um say hrt will prevent all of these we don't know what the long term protective 503 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:32,200 consequences are we've got we're pretty sure it's not causing heart it's not going to like give you 504 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:37,640 dementia but we do we know it's going to prevent dementia at the moment it's kind of sort of 505 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:44,360 neutral what we can say is that we know what hormone replacement therapy at perimenopause 506 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:48,040 when your hormones are kind of going up and down in each month it could be something different 507 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:56,920 um we do know what it does do we know that the the most obvious sort of objective measure would 508 00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:02,200 be hot flashes and night sweats that are waking women up and we know if you put estrogen back in 509 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:08,760 women who are experiencing them it typically helps it doesn't like completely obliterate them 510 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:15,800 doesn't quite touch the sides and everyone but it pretty it helps quite a lot what we do not know is 511 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:23,480 are perhaps some of the secondary consequences perhaps improve mood or perhaps 512 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:30,520 and the data for black brain fog is really unclear as well is that because we've got putting 513 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:35,880 estrogen in or is it because women are sleeping better because they're not waking up from the 514 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:42,600 night sweats we actually don't know what would be really useful to know is if we stop the night 515 00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:50,120 sweats in the hot flashes with a different type of drug that wasn't was an estrogen would we see 516 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:54,760 any consequences because there's been a couple of really really small studies there's a research 517 00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:58,680 called rebecca thurston and another research called pauline mackey and they're like really 518 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:03,480 interested in that kind of like this not the long-term health consequences but almost like 519 00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:10,840 the kind of the knock-on symptoms are they due to the disruption of sleep or are they due to the 520 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:17,720 drop of estrogen and if we treat the hot flashes do we see improvements if we can treat the hot 521 00:40:17,720 --> 00:40:22,680 flashes using drugs that are not hormones and i think that's we're right we're just kind of at 522 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:27,560 the point in time where we've got a few new medications coming in on the market depends 523 00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:32,120 where you are in the world whether they've been approved or not where that they specifically 524 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:37,480 target the neurons and the hypothalamus of the brain which are responsible for the dysregulated 525 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:42,760 thermoregulation so your your your your body's thinking you're much much hotter than you are so 526 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:49,720 it's doing this extreme response to cool you down which is where all the hot flashes come from 527 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:55,880 at night it's giving you a hot flashing you tip it down to covers and so then like you're starting 528 00:40:55,880 --> 00:41:00,360 to sweat heaps but then your body's going well this isn't working your brain's going this isn't 529 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:04,920 working i'm going to have to wake her up so then this sort of shot of adrenaline goes through your 530 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:09,480 body to kind of wake you up and so then you wake up enough to be able to take the covers off and 531 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:17,080 then cool down now is it like that massive sympathetic nervous system activation and that 532 00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:22,680 that adrenaline that's going through your body is that what's causing perhaps anxiety is that what's 533 00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:27,480 perhaps then leading on to depression we don't we don't know we don't have that data there are a lot 534 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:33,880 of people out there making these grandiose claims that replacing these hormones will fix everything 535 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:40,120 but we have also we know the data's not clear on that we've got data showing hot flashes night 536 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:45,720 sweats reduce sleep often improves we don't necessarily always end seeing improvement in 537 00:41:45,720 --> 00:41:52,280 brain fog and those women that are suffering from brain fog it's going to take like three or four or 538 00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:59,880 five or six or seven months to improve we're not necessarily always seeing you know this kind of 539 00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:05,080 cure of depression because depression isn't just caused by estrogen or not estrogen it's caused by 540 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,320 masses of contributing factors you're going to have to like kind of poll and tweak on lots of 541 00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:15,960 different levers levers in there so the the menopause hormone therapy space is is super 542 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:22,520 interesting and all of the you know the the global guidelines doesn't matter whether you look at 543 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:30,040 australia menopause society us you know uk etc they're very very careful about making claims 544 00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:34,040 that are based on the best available pooled evidence that we have not cherry picking this 545 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:37,880 paper here on that paper there because i'm charging you three thousand dollars for my 546 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:42,920 clinic consultation and so my you know i need you to think that this is the best thing ever and come 547 00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:47,880 and see me they're making recommendations based on the best available data that we have and the 548 00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:54,520 best available data supports the symptom relief in the moment a bit of data around osteoporosis 549 00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:59,240 long term is still unclear might change in time when data if more data comes in and we can say 550 00:42:59,240 --> 00:43:04,920 yeah hey it's going to help slow the rates of dementia great dementia is really interesting 551 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:11,720 because people are or you know more women than men have dementia two out of three cases of dementia 552 00:43:11,720 --> 00:43:18,280 and women not men and they're reporting on prevalence which is different from incidents 553 00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:24,040 and i'm not going to get into the the stats but if we had a look at like a thousand men in their 554 00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:30,920 70s and a thousand women then in their 70s say in europe the the numbers of males and females out 555 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:36,920 of that 1000 that are getting diagnosed with dementia are pretty similar once you get into 556 00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:43,480 your 80s then there are more slightly you might get like 16 out of a thousand versus 12 out of a 557 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:50,920 thousand are being diagnosed per year with dementia it's not like this massive like difference but 558 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:58,920 because there's more old ladies alive there's more cases but the incidence really only starts to 559 00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:05,080 diverge slightly um in your 80s and then it depends which part of the world you're looking 560 00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:10,040 at in some parts of the world even people in their 80s there's not an incidence difference between 561 00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:15,800 males and females but you go into low middle income countries particularly low countries or 562 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:23,480 lower socioeconomic status people then you do see a bigger sex difference emerge so we're so caught 563 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:29,560 up particularly right now in this online menopause influencer space that hormone loss at menopause is 564 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:34,280 leading to dementia they don't understand any of the incidence stats that are out there looking at 565 00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,640 what's going on in different countries so people have to be very very careful because 566 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:44,520 data is complicated and complex diseases have complex origins i mean this has been absolutely 567 00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:50,200 fascinating and i feel like we can talk to you for hours yeah there's just so much so much i want to 568 00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:55,720 ask you but we are coming to the end of the interview but before we finish up can i just 569 00:44:55,720 --> 00:45:03,320 ask what is your 40s formula if you were to put together a formula which will help women who are 570 00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:09,880 in their 40s thrive you know look after their brains what would you say would be the way to 571 00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:14,440 move forward or sleep if you're not getting a good night's sleep everything else will just 572 00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:19,960 utterly fall apart and i'm obsessed with getting a good night's sleep and i nap and everyone who i 573 00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:25,160 know who strategically naps is usually a good sleeper at night because you lean into sleep 574 00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:30,280 and you love sleep and i'll do anything in the world to protect my sleep it's number one 575 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:37,800 um the next is just is like just stop taking everything so this is not just enough self 576 00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:46,280 deprecation and like lack of seriousness like the the the women i hang out with like say in my dance 577 00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:54,440 group and who swim and they're just so funny and self-deprecating and we just have so many 578 00:45:54,440 --> 00:46:00,760 so many laughs about ourselves and of each other's expense and we just don't take it all too 579 00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:09,640 seriously so having like some kind of social group where you can just like enjoy that i think 580 00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:17,400 like laughing at each other is quite funny not in a mean way but like we have just so much fun so 581 00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:23,480 like just having the right kind of sort of social networks um around you and not like just taking it 582 00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:31,080 all so seriously um and then i am very fortunate because my art was an s another s sleep and social 583 00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:36,120 and it's like the sea like that is the place i'm looking out at it right now i'm very fortunate i 584 00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:44,440 could set up the window um just having somewhere where everything kind of washes away like you know 585 00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:52,120 that place you can go and you know salt water get in under the sea and um everything is cured 586 00:46:52,120 --> 00:47:03,320 so sleep social networks and the three s's for success thank you so much sarah it was 587 00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:07,320 wonderful speaking with you today you're very welcome bye have a great day 588 00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:19,240 after talking to our amazing guests all day in studio we need a good drink to refocus and 589 00:47:19,240 --> 00:47:23,800 let's be honest we could use a dash more energy too oh i totally feel that there's so many energy 590 00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:28,120 drinks out there are packed with sugar and so much caffeine that you end up crashing hard that's 591 00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:33,400 actually why i switched over to flojo asia's first productivity drink it hits the sweet spot for me 592 00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:37,880 between eating a little bit of a boost but not wanting to chug a bunch of caffeine and flojo 593 00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:42,840 actually has 80 less caffeine than your average coffee with no added sugar i also love that 594 00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:47,320 flojo is a functional health drink it has seven organic nutrients and adaptions things like 595 00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:52,680 racial mushroom for a stronger immune system and rhodiola for mental resilience but the fruit and 596 00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:57,960 tea flavors are still light and fresh not weird flojo actually helps me stay calm and in control 597 00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:02,120 so when i get home after work i can just be immediately present with my family not all 598 00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:07,240 jacked up in jittery like i might feel after a later day coffee even better they offer a 14 day 599 00:48:07,240 --> 00:48:11,640 money back guarantee so you can try it without any worry and you can get free shipping when you 600 00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:20,840 order directly from their website at www.drinkflojo.com. This is Paul, our editor. He's a 25 year old 601 00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:25,640 unmarried Singaporean guy listening to the ramblings of 12 older women on everything from 602 00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:31,160 menopause to weightlifting to sex. So Paul, what's your thoughts on today's conversation? 603 00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:36,360 Hey guys what's up, Paul here. So for this episode i'm not a neurologist or neuroscientist but 604 00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:41,480 you know the brain is just fascinating and i have to admit i was kind of lost in the whole 605 00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:46,280 brain related drug and you know while editing through this episode but i guess you know for 606 00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:51,240 us there's always a lot left uncovered about how our brains function and well Dr Sarah thanks for 607 00:48:51,240 --> 00:48:57,640 contributing in research. See ya! Guys you know how much we love coffee and if you want to share 608 00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:04,520 some love you know you can get us one. Just visit buymeacoffee.com slash the 40s formula. Cheers! 609 00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:09,560 Before we go please remember to hit subscribe and take a moment to support the 40s formula by 610 00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:14,760 leaving a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your reviews will help us to reach more people and 611 00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:19,240 allow us to continue to bring valuable content. It should only take a moment and it's a free way 612 00:49:19,240 --> 00:49:23,800 for you to support the show. You can also stay updated with the 40s formula by following us on 613 00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:30,360 instagram at the 40s formula all one word. We share behind the scenes insights episode updates 614 00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:35,320 and much more so please be sure to hit that follow button. We appreciate your time and support thank 615 00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:39,400 you for being part of this community and we'll be back next week for more empowering conversations 616 00:49:39,400 --> 00:50:01,400 with inspiring guests. Bye! 617 00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:31,080 I think I would love that you know that whole sort of Ozzy vibe you know being a being close 618 00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:35,160 to the beach we've got Sentosa but it's not quite the same. Oh it is not the same because I said when 619 00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:39,000 you say the beach you're also referring to like surfing and actually doing things in the water. 620 00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:45,800 Yeah yeah yeah and Singapore's water is not made for that I'll tell you what. Yeah their high school 621 00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:49,960 is right by the beach so they just can go down. In fact they have surfing at school they have beach 622 00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:54,920 sports at school and stuff so they just just head down for a swim after school. Wow and have you 623 00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:59,800 ever been to Singapore before or have you come have you come here? I have once a very long time 624 00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:05,880 ago before you could fly to Ireland via the boat and now we don't have to go via Singapore and 625 00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:12,760 London you just go straight so I haven't been to Singapore since Emirates basically started. Oh 626 00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:18,600 yeah now I think Singapore's changed. It was a long time ago unfortunately I got food poisoning. 627 00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:23,400 Oh no and that you know we hold ourselves up for our food culture and our sanitation that's 628 00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:29,880 that's heartbreaking. Yeah yeah I know it sucked so yeah I didn't have the best trip and then 629 00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:35,320 then went to Borneo straight after me my husband we've met in Singapore and went to Borneo and 630 00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:40,200 that's where we got engaged. Oh lovely okay so a good memory from Borneo to kind of cover up the 631 00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:45,160 food poisoning. I would love to have spent more time in Singapore seeing Singapore 632 00:51:45,160 --> 00:52:06,120 but it was yeah I spent a lot of time in my friend's bath. Oh the worst.