I don't advocate that people do what I did.
Like I did have, obviously I had a financial runway behind me,
I'd saved a lot of money and I was willing to invest some of my savings in reinventing myself.
Not everyone's willing to do that at the scale that I did and I totally understand that.
But micro bravery is about saying like how can I do one thing every day that makes me feel uncomfortable
but enables me to move closer to where I want to be.
Hey hey and welcome to the Forties Formula, your go-to place for insightful discussions
on navigating the forties and thriving in this transformative decade.
We're your hosts Jasmine and Amanda, two women that are passionate about exploring the challenges
and adventures that come with turning 40 and what lies ahead.
Penny Lacaso is the world's first happiness hacker and she is on a mission to teach 10 million women
how to flourish on their terms. Penny spent 16 years as a corporate executive until she turned
her life upside down in pursuit of happiness. She left a 16-year career, relocated a family,
she said goodbye to an 18-year relationship and started her own purpose-driven company Hacking Happy.co.
For the last nine years Penny has been speaking and facilitating for many of the biggest companies
in the world on the topic of flourishing. She has a master's of business, a graduate diploma in
psychology with honors underway and is a coach and mentor to thousands of women around the world.
She's the published author of Hacking Happiness, a Harvard Business Review contributor,
a passionate yoga teacher, a faculty member at the esteemed Singularity University and a
trauma-informed therapist. She's also an expert in adaptability, a podcast host on the Hacking
Happy podcast and she is speaking with us today on the Forties Formula. Hi Penny, how are you?
Thank you so much for having me ladies. Oh it's our pleasure. So Penny, people would say that you were
almost living the dream. You had a high-flying career, you're in a long-term relationship,
you have a child but you weren't happy. Yeah. In the midst of all those changes, which was the
hardest for you? I mean if we're getting serious here was it the career, the family, the relationship?
Mm-hmm. That's a really good question and no one's ever asked me that. I think it was the career.
I think it was the career because it wasn't that I was miserable in my career and I wasn't, you know,
you know, sad or depressed or anything like that. It was that that career had served me for such a
long period of time but it was no longer in alignment with who I wanted to be as the woman,
you know, stepping into her 40s and the next iteration of her life and that's why I think
what you guys are doing is so interesting because I feel like, you know, 40s is such a pivotal
decade in really owning and connecting in for many of us with who we want to be in the world
because it's kind of that point where we sort of step back and go, am I where I want to be?
And is that, is where I want to be still in alignment with who I want to be?
What would you say is the sort of difference between flourishing and the traditional concept
of success? I think many of us have not asked ourselves what success looks like for us on our
terms. So we've almost been caught up in this kind of trajectory through the constructs that
we've put through, be that, you know, school, be that, you know, university education and then
into our careers, we've been sold a definition of success, which is often, well, it's always
more often than not, it's related to external validation points. You know, it's either I can
now afford a nice car, I can now afford a nice home, I now have, you know, that degree on the wall.
So it's all external validation, whereas flourishing is really about the internal.
So it's about am I fulfilled and getting meaning from the way I'm living my life?
Do I have strong relationships that actually make me feel joyful and feel connected?
So they're kind of, that I look at it one as kind of the definition of success we've been sold
is more often than not someone else's, not our own. And flourishing is really about getting clear on
what are the things that bring you fulfillment and meaning and joy and make you feel at one with the
world. That's the stuff that's actually going to make you, I think, show up as the person you want
to be in life. And equally as a parent, I know which many of your listeners probably are,
be the role models that so many women tell me they want to be for their kids.
And I think, you know, here in Singapore, especially, right, we are in the extreme
version of a meritocracy. There is one way of success and it is making money and being a doctor
or a lawyer. And I mean, that's a big generalization, but honestly, it isn't, you know,
my husband is Singaporean Chinese. And even within his family, where those aren't the expectations,
he is still a doctor. Okay, let's be real. And so there are there, you know, it's woven into the
fabric here. And I think that when you have a culture like that, and again, Singapore might
be the extreme, I think maybe Australia, America, UK have elements of this. I think the opposite,
what you're talking about, right, living your truth and finding authentic self, it's seen as
at odds with success, right? You can't, you know, all that stuff is woo woo and hippie dippy. And
wouldn't it be nice if I could be my own person, but I got to make money. And I got to make this
achievement, you know, how do you coming from the corporate world, I feel like your position
to help people step out of that and understand that there is life outside the meritocracy.
How do you do it? Yeah, I think the first one, well, there's two things. One is appreciating the
fact that change comes with compromise, change is choice. And you need to be very clear on the
choices that you're willing to make and the sacrifices you're willing to make. If you do
want to live a life that, you know, does enable you to flourish. And there will be sacrifices,
you know, it took me a long time to, to let go like attachment is probably the other thing,
you know, understanding what you're attached to that's no longer serving you and how that attachment
holds you back. So it's fine to say, yeah, I want to, I want to have this success, I want to earn
all of this money. But what I see so much of is people with that, as you say, that definition of
success, where it's like, okay, I've got to make money, I need to be the doctor and the lawyer.
And so many of them are burnt out and unhappy. Okay, so I suppose the question, you know,
you need to ask yourself is, am I happy to continue to be unhappy and burnt out? Yeah,
and earn lots of money? Is that how I want to live my life? And if you say yes, like that's fine,
because the challenge is, it's at least an intentional choice. But if the answer is no,
then you need to ask yourself, what am I willing to sacrifice to make a shift? Because you will
have to make sacrifices. And you will have to let go of some of the things that you are attached to,
and I'll never forget for me, the hardest part in the first two years, my, my identity was so
ingrained in the success that I had, and the title that I had, and the company that I worked for,
it was extremely hard for me to go to a barbecue and someone say, what is it that you do? And I
was like, I don't even know what I do. And because I'd allowed that to define who I am,
and I don't think a job should define who you are. Hey, Amanda, picture this, you're in your 40s.
I am. You are, you're working, you're raising kids, you're breastfeeding, and you're hungry.
That sounds about right. But you're not going to feed yourself and your family any old crap.
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And I think fear seems to be like one of the biggest things, you know, that tends to hold
women back, you know, fear of, I guess, being judged, fear of not having the financial security.
How can you overcome that and sort of take this step if you're not happy and you do want to make
a change? And is it possible? Like, can you just sort of throw in the towel when you don't have,
I guess, you know, that sort of financial security or that stability? How is it possible? Or how can
someone make it possible? Yeah, and you're absolutely right. So I've been running a program
on fear for years with women and how to tackle fear. And the top three fears, the number one
fear of change is financial instability. It's fear of judgment, what others will think of me.
Yeah. And the third one is fear of failure. What if it doesn't work out? What if I'm not on the
right path? Which I hate this, you know, how do I find the right plan before I make a start?
Because there is no right plan and there's no right path. It could be a million, right?
So one of the things that I teach, which I absolutely love, and I use myself still to this
day, is micro bravery. And so I don't advocate that people do what I did. Like I did have,
obviously, I had a financial runway behind me. I'd saved a lot of money and I was willing to
invest some of my savings in reinventing myself. Not everyone's willing to do that at the scale
that I did. And I totally understand that. But micro bravery is about saying, like, how can I
do one thing every day that makes me feel uncomfortable, but enables me to move closer
to where I want to be? Okay, because the reality is, whatever it is that you want to shift or change,
the reason you haven't done it already is because of fear. There's a block. Yeah, that's what's
holding you back. So the only way to tackle fear, that's the most effective way to tackle fear,
is exposure therapy. And so exposure therapy can be practiced through doing one small thing every
day that makes you feel uncomfortable. It doesn't matter how tiny it is. So maybe, for example,
it's reaching out to someone you've long admired, who's living their life the way you'd love to
live it, and asking them if they would share their story over a coffee. Maybe, you know, it's putting
your first blog up on LinkedIn about something that you want to be an expert in. Maybe it's
changing your title on Instagram to showing up as an ex or being perceived as what it is that you
want to be. Like, these sound like small things, but for some people, they're massive things. But
these are acts of micro bravery. So just do one small thing every day that makes you feel
uncomfortable. And what you'll start to realize is it will build your courage and your confidence
to step into bigger acts of bravery over time, which means that it will start to propel your
propensity to actually make the shift. Because what we fear, like, you know, what we fear and
the way we perceive the things that we're scared of, up here, it's massive. You know, in our heads,
it's massive. In the real world, it's tiny. And often people don't even freak and notice if you
change your LinkedIn profile. Yeah, real talk. And Penny, what you said resonates so much with me,
because I went through something similar, not quite as overwhelming, you know, and all encompassing
is what you did. But I was in my PhD program, and I was doing personal training as a side gig,
like so many of our passion projects, where they started side gigs, and you realize this is the
gig, this is my life's gig, right. But I remember having a conversation during a study group with
one of my close friends in the program. And I was like, I'm just gonna drop it. I'm just gonna say
to her, I'm thinking of leaving the program. Like, I'm just gonna say it. Like, like, I didn't leave
the program. I didn't tell anybody, you know, I'm just gonna say the words and see how they come out
and see what her reaction is, right, as my closest friend in the program. And I remember just like,
the whole study session being terrified of dropping the bomb. And then finally, I said,
you know, I think I might just take the masters and go and then open my training in nutrition
business full time. And she was like, I can't believe you haven't done that already. How have
you not done that already? And I was like, Oh, my God. And it was just it was so valid. Like,
she knew everyone in the program knew they saw the writing on the wall. I just couldn't admit it yet.
And after I had a conversation with her, then I was able to tell my family and then I was able
to tell my advisor. And then I walked off with that master's degree started my business. And I
have never looked back. That was almost 18 years ago. And the micro bravery of that first conversation
is exactly I mean, you nailed it. That's what it was. And what a beautiful story, right? Because
you've just you know, a lot of people talk about, you know, manifestation. And I always love the
concept of manifestation, because it's like this, this belief that, you know, you put it out into
the world and the fairies deliver ship, you know, like, from a psychological perspective,
you can manifest things. And what you've just done is exactly that manifestation is actually
telling the world what it is that you want, because the more that you vocalize the things
that you're afraid to say that you actually want, the more the world can help you make that thing
happen. And I think as women, we're so damn good at thinking, if I just do a good job, if I try
really hard, someone might notice and someone might be a mind reader and work out that I want
all these things and just magically arrive and give them to me. It's not how the world works.
Yeah. And so like I said, getting it out of your head and just putting a voice to whatever it is
that you want, if that is the only thing you do in the next week, and you do it with someone
that's really safe to do it with, which is what you did, I guarantee you it's that is an act that
is going to move you closer to whatever it is that you want. It's like a stepping stone and every
little stepping stone of micro bravery is what gets you to where you want to be. Not taking someone
said to my son, my son's an amazing soccer player. And someone said to him the other week, he sort of
defaulted when he was going to take a shot. And it was like, where does the confidence go? And they
said to him, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. Yeah. And I was like, Oh my gosh, I can use
that in my work. That's freaking amazing. And this is the thing I see so many women that just aren't
taking the shots. They're more than capable. Yeah. And this is the other thing that kills me, and
especially women our age that I say, it's these women that are over credentialing. It's like I need
to go and study a million things, right? Before I can put myself out there as that thing. And they're
not I mean, they're not trying to be doctors. They're not, you know, they're not put doing
surgery on people. The things that they are learning are things that they could, in many ways,
practically apply right now. But they delay the application of the learning and they become
self development junkies. And all it does, it's actually the development and the constant learning
becomes the barrier to application and actually doing what you want to do. So I say that to create
awareness because I know there are many women that domain, get out there and fucking do something,
you know, like, it's great to learn. But if you're learning without application, it's knowledge
without skill. Yeah. That resonates against so hard as someone who was in that exact cycle,
right? I was like, no one will listen to me if I don't have a PhD behind my name. That'll,
that'll limit my business forever. And here we are. And I feel like that as well, you know, like
doing what we do, I feel like, oh, if we're not doctors, are people really going to take us
seriously? But they do. Yeah, they realize, hey, you know what, you might actually know something
even without, you know, the doctor before your name, because we've got the experience of it as
well, you know, like living through things. And that kind of takes me on to my next question,
which is, what about women who are busy? You know, they say, I want to do something,
I just don't have the time. I'm busy with work. I'm busy with my family. I barely have time to
see my friends. Like, how can they sort of move towards flourishing? So the first thing I'll say
is my fundamental belief. And I have run programs around the world with thousands across cultures,
around the concept of busy. And my belief is busy equals bullshit. Okay, so and the reason I say
this is because busy has a word has no real meaning yet. So like, it has no meaning. And what I have
discovered from the work that I do in this domain is busy is code for something else. So, you know,
if your list, your listeners go back into their memory bank and remember the last time they told
someone they were busy, and then ask themselves, what was the conversation in my head? What was I
really saying? And more often than not, like I said, I've run this little exercise all around
the place. More often than not, busy is code for I'm overwhelmed. I've got too much on my place.
I feel like I'm never enough and it's never enough. Yeah, I don't have capacity for that.
I'm a people pleasing perfectionist. And I can't say no. Like, there's so many different codes
that sit behind busy. So actually, awareness is the first step to any change. So identifying what
you are really saying when you're saying busy, is a really powerful way to start to address the
busy. The second thing that I would say is remove the word from your vocabulary. Because that means
you're going to have to be honest with yourself about what you're actually saying when you say
you're busy. So one of the things I am a massive fan of, I mean, cognitive behavioral therapy in
the psych world is one of the most powerful ways to make change, right? Which is basically, it's
just, it's basically reframing. And your words are a brilliant way to reframe your inner
conversation and how you show up in the world. And a beautiful example of this, which started
my whole work in the busy domain was about seven years ago, I stopped using the word busy. And
instead, I swapped it out and started to use the word positively engaged. Now it sounds crazy.
I like it girl, I guess. But what happened was when people would stop me in the street,
rather than give them the default, which we all do, I'm busy when they ask me how I am,
which is not a conversation opener, it's actually a conversation closer. Okay, so it doesn't
actually help you get to where you want to be quicker. It actually gives you a way to
quicker. It actually disconnects you from people, which I don't think is ideal either. But I would
say when they'd ask me how I am, I'm positively engaged, people would stop dead in their tracks,
because it was so unexpected. And they would say to me, what do you mean? Like, what are you doing?
And I would say, my life is full, but I'm doing things that I love. And then they were like,
well, how'd like, then again, it opens the conversation. How did you get to that? Why are
you like, how are you so different? Okay, so I would challenge your listeners, if they want
to create or step closer towards flourishing on their terms, do what I call the busy equals
bullshit challenge, remove the word from your vocabulary for one week and just observe what
happens. You can replace it with another word like I did to reframe your mindset, or you can just not
use it and watch what happens in your mind, because a busy mind will go to anxiety, it's only a matter
of time, it will just spin the hamster wheel faster, the more you say the word, but equally,
watch how it changes how you engage with people. And how by having more open conversations, rather
than close ones, because you're shutting them down with busy can actually unlock the door to
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their website akizewelness.com. Don't forget to try their elderberry boost and probiotic base
products, which are actually perfect for babies too. And now back to the conversation. Okay,
so pop quiz Jasmine. So if Penny is positively engaged, what are you instead of busy? It's
actually really funny. I was going to say that I had a conversation with my sister yesterday,
a brief conversation where I told her I'm really busy. I'll speak to you on Tuesday and I feel
terrible. Oh my God, Sarita, I'm really, really sorry. What I meant to say was I actually feel
overwhelmed. There's a lot going on and I do want to speak to you, but that was not the right time
for me to sort of open up and have that conversation, but I will call you in on Tuesday. I promise.
So maybe you should tell her that when you speak to her on Tuesday. I'll bet you it might change her.
I will. Yeah. Yeah. How beautiful.
So Penny, you're on a mission to help 20 sorry, 10 million women flourish by 2025.
So what steps or strategies do you feel that women can take to, to start achieving, I guess,
I mean, it's flourishment away. I was thinking flourishment. I was like, can we say that?
Flourishment? I've just created a new word. Oh, so I use the word flourishing because my
background's in psych and flourishing is basically the scientific term that speaks to living a
wholehearted and fulfilled life. Like we spoke about with really good connections and doing
things that actually make you, you know, that fill you up. The first place that I would start,
if you want to live a more flourishing life, there's two things I would recommend.
The first one would be sit down and ask yourself, what does a flourishing day look like for me?
Now, I think we're very good and we're again, we're sold by the external environment, you know,
create long-term goals, aim high, go big. I think that many women need to remove that piece because
we're really good at it and actually focus on the day that you have in front of you. So what would
an average flourishing day look like? What would you be doing? Who would you be doing it with?
How would you be feeling? And then ask yourself, what are the micro moments that make you feel
that way? What are the things? So I know for me, the micro moments that I have the power to bring
into each day that recharge my batteries and make me feel like I'm flourishing is always some form
of exercise and always at the start of the day because how I start my day sets the tone for my
day. I know that meditating for me is really important and journaling because journaling
allows me to get the shit out of my head onto a piece of paper so it doesn't block me in my day.
It's about having moments of connection with my son and my dog, being out in nature. So these
don't have to be hours and hours of things. It's like these are the micro moments throughout the
day that enable me to feel like I'm flourishing. Equally, they recharge your batteries and make
you feel good in terms of, you know, your mind gets recharged so you're more focused and more
productive and your physiology gets recharged, which you know all about, Amanda, because
you've taken that moment to sort of give back to yourself. So that would be the first thing.
The other thing that I am a massive advocate of because of my studies with Dr. Gabor Maté
is that one of the things women are terrible at is being compassionate to themselves. We are
brilliant at showing compassion for everybody else. So if the only thing you take away from
this podcast is to ask yourself on a daily basis, what would self-compassion look like for me today
and you do that thing, that is going to make you feel a little bit more flourishing in each day.
And you two as mothers of three, I guarantee that's something that you probably don't do a
lot of either. Like, so what does self-compassion look like for you ladies today?
Yeah, that is so, so helpful because you're absolutely right. I mean, you know, we were
talking off air about how I have a newborn and luckily it's my third go-round with this, but
I'm in a circle now with a lot of new moms, a lot of first-time moms, and you are absolutely
right, Penny. I would say the biggest barrier between the first-time moms that I'm kind of in
a room with and me is that they do not give themselves any grace. You know, their bodies
aren't good enough, their babies aren't good enough, their parenting style isn't right,
their kids aren't sleeping correctly. And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, like, let that all chill,
you know, and it's hard to say right to a first-time mom that's in the trenches 100%.
But if you show yourself a little bit of compassion with each of these comparisons,
that they start to dissolve. You know, if you take away the kind of negative self-talk and
the comparing to other moms, it actually just disappears. It really does. It's just easier
said than done. Yeah. Well, the other word that you should be looking at, you know, if you're in
that domain where it's like, you know, you, when women constantly say to me, I feel like I'm never
enough and it's never enough. And I honestly believe this is driven by what I call the
layers of should. Yeah. So we should all over ourselves. And the more we should, the less
connected we are to our essence, the less connected we are to what we actually want.
And so many women, when I ask them what it is that they want when they arrive on my doorstep
for coaching, they don't know because they're so busy shooting all over themselves and pleasing
everyone else that they're completely disconnected from what it was in the first place that actually
made them feel like they were flourishing. And that's where I start a lot of my work. It sounds
crazy, like smart, educated women don't know what they want because they've invested so much time
trying to be something that they felt they should be rather than who they actually are.
And I think there might be some women out there who are thinking, shit, you know what, I'm old
now. I'm in my forties. It's too late. It's just, you know, what's the point? I'll just keep doing
what I'm doing. This is how it is. Yeah, this is my life and you know, this is what I've
picked or chosen. What would you say to those women? Bullshit.
As someone who went back to university to do a second masters at the age of 47
and went to study trauma with, as I said, one of the top trauma therapists in the world
at the age of 48, you can still live your dreams no matter what age you're at. And I know that
there's research out there that says women are the most successful female entrepreneurs are the
women that go into it in their forties. And I think it comes back to we had an offline
conversation before we started this podcast, where we were actually saying, like, for me,
like I'm nearly at the I'm at the back end of my forties, but I call it, you know, it's like my
zero fucks decade. It's like there is something about being older, wiser and more mature,
where it's almost like you have permission to let go of, you know, caring so much what other
people think of you because you realize you have this epiphany that it's like there are people in
the world, no matter how good I am, how kind I am, how amazing I am, how credential I am,
that still won't frickin like me, that will still judge me, they will always judge me.
There will always be haters on social media, no matter what you do. So you can allow that to
hold you back, you can allow that to inform the story that you tell yourself as a reason not to,
or you can sit there and go, I'm not attached to it, because I can't control it. There's nothing
I'm ever going to be able to do about that. But what I can control is who I want to be and how
I want to show up and what I hear so often from mothers and the role model that I want to be to
my child. And so if that's kind of where you want to play, your age is irrelevant. There are people
at the age of 70 running marathons. I mean, come on. That's incredible. Absolutely. Well, and you
know what you said about kind of dropping the likeability piece, you know, somebody once told
me you won't be everyone's cup of tea, but for those who you are, they're coming back for refills,
you know, and it's like I use that in my entrepreneur career as well. It's like, you
know, the way that I coach and the way that I view fitness and health is not for everyone,
but for those who it is, they coming back for refills. So free refills here, guys.
We have actually come to the end of the interview today. And we really appreciate,
you know, all of the knowledge and stuff that you have given us. It's been absolutely wonderful.
But before we finish up, we have a question that we ask all of our guests. And it is what's your
forties formula? What sort of wisdom would you share with our audience, those that are in their
forties about how they can thrive in this decade? I love this idea of a forties formula. I feel like
I should have been better prepared on this, but it's like, oh, but the brain works in three. So
I would say start doing what you want, ask yourself what you want to do and start doing
it because not enough women do what you want. So that's the first thing. Do what you want. It
doesn't have to be like I did, but something small, an act of micro bravery and keep doing that. Do
what you want, show yourself self compassion and do it on a daily basis because women have over 70%
of their internal dialogue on average is negative. And the thing is, the more you speak to yourself
negatively, the more you'll project like basically, you won't come across as confident. And if you
don't believe in you, no one else is going to believe in you and give you what you want. Yeah.
So self compassion, be kind to yourself. And the third thing is just have a go. Don't be attached
to an outcome playing out a certain way, because there are so many things that you cannot control,
but I guarantee you if you step towards the things that make you feel good towards flourishing and
you do micro acts of bravery every day in that direction, I'll guarantee you where you'll land
will not be where you expected, but you will find joy in that journey more so than perhaps what you
are now. I love it. Do it, do it bravely and just do it. If that doesn't get you off your seat,
I can't imagine what will. Thank you so much for having me ladies. Thank you. Thank you Penny.
This has been so inspiring. I feel like, you know, we're going to get out there and do it now after
hearing talking to you. This is Paul, our editor. He's a 25 year old unmarried Singaporean guy
listening to the ramblings of 12 older women on everything from menopause to weightlifting to sex.
So Paul, what's your thoughts on today's conversation? Hey, what's up? Paul here again.
You know, success. It's something that I guess many of us define differently, but what,
you know, what unifies that I guess is the whole concept of, you know, Penny mentioned about
manifestation, basically telling the world what we want. You know, the more we vocalise and share
people, the more people around us can help us make things happen. And that's a really cool
concept, I guess, that you've brought to the table and also exposure therapy, try to do like one
small thing every day that basically makes us feel uncomfortable. Sort of like small steps of
micro bravery, but yet, you know, brings us always that one step closer towards the direction that
we want to go. You know, Penny, thanks for sharing and I hope to catch you guys in the next season.
See you guys.
Real as much as possible here and we are going to keep that real life discussion coming to you and
our seasons to come. Before we go, please remember to hit subscribe and take a moment to support the
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Oh, look at that. I've got the thumbs up. Don't you love Zoom? Yeah. Start doing what?
The listeners can't see it, but now we've got like sparkles and fireworks behind me on Zoom.
Fireworks.