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I don't advocate that people do what I did.

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Like I did have, obviously I had a financial runway behind me,

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I'd saved a lot of money and I was willing to invest some of my savings in reinventing myself.

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Not everyone's willing to do that at the scale that I did and I totally understand that.

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But micro bravery is about saying like how can I do one thing every day that makes me feel uncomfortable

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but enables me to move closer to where I want to be.

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Hey hey and welcome to the Forties Formula, your go-to place for insightful discussions

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on navigating the forties and thriving in this transformative decade.

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We're your hosts Jasmine and Amanda, two women that are passionate about exploring the challenges

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and adventures that come with turning 40 and what lies ahead.

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Penny Lacaso is the world's first happiness hacker and she is on a mission to teach 10 million women

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how to flourish on their terms. Penny spent 16 years as a corporate executive until she turned

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her life upside down in pursuit of happiness. She left a 16-year career, relocated a family,

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she said goodbye to an 18-year relationship and started her own purpose-driven company Hacking Happy.co.

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For the last nine years Penny has been speaking and facilitating for many of the biggest companies

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in the world on the topic of flourishing. She has a master's of business, a graduate diploma in

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psychology with honors underway and is a coach and mentor to thousands of women around the world.

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She's the published author of Hacking Happiness, a Harvard Business Review contributor,

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a passionate yoga teacher, a faculty member at the esteemed Singularity University and a

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trauma-informed therapist. She's also an expert in adaptability, a podcast host on the Hacking

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Happy podcast and she is speaking with us today on the Forties Formula. Hi Penny, how are you?

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Thank you so much for having me ladies. Oh it's our pleasure. So Penny, people would say that you were

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almost living the dream. You had a high-flying career, you're in a long-term relationship,

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you have a child but you weren't happy. Yeah. In the midst of all those changes, which was the

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hardest for you? I mean if we're getting serious here was it the career, the family, the relationship?

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Mm-hmm. That's a really good question and no one's ever asked me that. I think it was the career.

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I think it was the career because it wasn't that I was miserable in my career and I wasn't, you know,

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you know, sad or depressed or anything like that. It was that that career had served me for such a

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long period of time but it was no longer in alignment with who I wanted to be as the woman,

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you know, stepping into her 40s and the next iteration of her life and that's why I think

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what you guys are doing is so interesting because I feel like, you know, 40s is such a pivotal

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decade in really owning and connecting in for many of us with who we want to be in the world

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because it's kind of that point where we sort of step back and go, am I where I want to be?

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And is that, is where I want to be still in alignment with who I want to be?

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What would you say is the sort of difference between flourishing and the traditional concept

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of success? I think many of us have not asked ourselves what success looks like for us on our

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terms. So we've almost been caught up in this kind of trajectory through the constructs that

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we've put through, be that, you know, school, be that, you know, university education and then

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into our careers, we've been sold a definition of success, which is often, well, it's always

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more often than not, it's related to external validation points. You know, it's either I can

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now afford a nice car, I can now afford a nice home, I now have, you know, that degree on the wall.

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So it's all external validation, whereas flourishing is really about the internal.

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So it's about am I fulfilled and getting meaning from the way I'm living my life?

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Do I have strong relationships that actually make me feel joyful and feel connected?

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So they're kind of, that I look at it one as kind of the definition of success we've been sold

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is more often than not someone else's, not our own. And flourishing is really about getting clear on

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what are the things that bring you fulfillment and meaning and joy and make you feel at one with the

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world. That's the stuff that's actually going to make you, I think, show up as the person you want

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to be in life. And equally as a parent, I know which many of your listeners probably are,

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be the role models that so many women tell me they want to be for their kids.

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And I think, you know, here in Singapore, especially, right, we are in the extreme

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version of a meritocracy. There is one way of success and it is making money and being a doctor

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or a lawyer. And I mean, that's a big generalization, but honestly, it isn't, you know,

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my husband is Singaporean Chinese. And even within his family, where those aren't the expectations,

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he is still a doctor. Okay, let's be real. And so there are there, you know, it's woven into the

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fabric here. And I think that when you have a culture like that, and again, Singapore might

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be the extreme, I think maybe Australia, America, UK have elements of this. I think the opposite,

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what you're talking about, right, living your truth and finding authentic self, it's seen as

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at odds with success, right? You can't, you know, all that stuff is woo woo and hippie dippy. And

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wouldn't it be nice if I could be my own person, but I got to make money. And I got to make this

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achievement, you know, how do you coming from the corporate world, I feel like your position

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to help people step out of that and understand that there is life outside the meritocracy.

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How do you do it? Yeah, I think the first one, well, there's two things. One is appreciating the

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fact that change comes with compromise, change is choice. And you need to be very clear on the

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choices that you're willing to make and the sacrifices you're willing to make. If you do

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want to live a life that, you know, does enable you to flourish. And there will be sacrifices,

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you know, it took me a long time to, to let go like attachment is probably the other thing,

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you know, understanding what you're attached to that's no longer serving you and how that attachment

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holds you back. So it's fine to say, yeah, I want to, I want to have this success, I want to earn

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all of this money. But what I see so much of is people with that, as you say, that definition of

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success, where it's like, okay, I've got to make money, I need to be the doctor and the lawyer.

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And so many of them are burnt out and unhappy. Okay, so I suppose the question, you know,

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you need to ask yourself is, am I happy to continue to be unhappy and burnt out? Yeah,

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and earn lots of money? Is that how I want to live my life? And if you say yes, like that's fine,

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because the challenge is, it's at least an intentional choice. But if the answer is no,

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then you need to ask yourself, what am I willing to sacrifice to make a shift? Because you will

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have to make sacrifices. And you will have to let go of some of the things that you are attached to,

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and I'll never forget for me, the hardest part in the first two years, my, my identity was so

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ingrained in the success that I had, and the title that I had, and the company that I worked for,

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it was extremely hard for me to go to a barbecue and someone say, what is it that you do? And I

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was like, I don't even know what I do. And because I'd allowed that to define who I am,

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and I don't think a job should define who you are. Hey, Amanda, picture this, you're in your 40s.

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I am. You are, you're working, you're raising kids, you're breastfeeding, and you're hungry.

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That sounds about right. But you're not going to feed yourself and your family any old crap.

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don't forget to follow The Meat Club on Instagram at The Meat Club SG. Now back to the chat.

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And I think fear seems to be like one of the biggest things, you know, that tends to hold

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women back, you know, fear of, I guess, being judged, fear of not having the financial security.

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How can you overcome that and sort of take this step if you're not happy and you do want to make

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a change? And is it possible? Like, can you just sort of throw in the towel when you don't have,

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I guess, you know, that sort of financial security or that stability? How is it possible? Or how can

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someone make it possible? Yeah, and you're absolutely right. So I've been running a program

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on fear for years with women and how to tackle fear. And the top three fears, the number one

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fear of change is financial instability. It's fear of judgment, what others will think of me.

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Yeah. And the third one is fear of failure. What if it doesn't work out? What if I'm not on the

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right path? Which I hate this, you know, how do I find the right plan before I make a start?

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Because there is no right plan and there's no right path. It could be a million, right?

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So one of the things that I teach, which I absolutely love, and I use myself still to this

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day, is micro bravery. And so I don't advocate that people do what I did. Like I did have,

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obviously, I had a financial runway behind me. I'd saved a lot of money and I was willing to

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invest some of my savings in reinventing myself. Not everyone's willing to do that at the scale

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that I did. And I totally understand that. But micro bravery is about saying, like, how can I

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do one thing every day that makes me feel uncomfortable, but enables me to move closer

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to where I want to be? Okay, because the reality is, whatever it is that you want to shift or change,

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the reason you haven't done it already is because of fear. There's a block. Yeah, that's what's

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holding you back. So the only way to tackle fear, that's the most effective way to tackle fear,

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is exposure therapy. And so exposure therapy can be practiced through doing one small thing every

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day that makes you feel uncomfortable. It doesn't matter how tiny it is. So maybe, for example,

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it's reaching out to someone you've long admired, who's living their life the way you'd love to

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live it, and asking them if they would share their story over a coffee. Maybe, you know, it's putting

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your first blog up on LinkedIn about something that you want to be an expert in. Maybe it's

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changing your title on Instagram to showing up as an ex or being perceived as what it is that you

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want to be. Like, these sound like small things, but for some people, they're massive things. But

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these are acts of micro bravery. So just do one small thing every day that makes you feel

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uncomfortable. And what you'll start to realize is it will build your courage and your confidence

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to step into bigger acts of bravery over time, which means that it will start to propel your

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propensity to actually make the shift. Because what we fear, like, you know, what we fear and

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the way we perceive the things that we're scared of, up here, it's massive. You know, in our heads,

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it's massive. In the real world, it's tiny. And often people don't even freak and notice if you

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change your LinkedIn profile. Yeah, real talk. And Penny, what you said resonates so much with me,

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because I went through something similar, not quite as overwhelming, you know, and all encompassing

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is what you did. But I was in my PhD program, and I was doing personal training as a side gig,

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like so many of our passion projects, where they started side gigs, and you realize this is the

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gig, this is my life's gig, right. But I remember having a conversation during a study group with

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one of my close friends in the program. And I was like, I'm just gonna drop it. I'm just gonna say

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to her, I'm thinking of leaving the program. Like, I'm just gonna say it. Like, like, I didn't leave

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the program. I didn't tell anybody, you know, I'm just gonna say the words and see how they come out

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and see what her reaction is, right, as my closest friend in the program. And I remember just like,

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the whole study session being terrified of dropping the bomb. And then finally, I said,

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you know, I think I might just take the masters and go and then open my training in nutrition

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business full time. And she was like, I can't believe you haven't done that already. How have

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you not done that already? And I was like, Oh, my God. And it was just it was so valid. Like,

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she knew everyone in the program knew they saw the writing on the wall. I just couldn't admit it yet.

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And after I had a conversation with her, then I was able to tell my family and then I was able

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to tell my advisor. And then I walked off with that master's degree started my business. And I

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have never looked back. That was almost 18 years ago. And the micro bravery of that first conversation

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is exactly I mean, you nailed it. That's what it was. And what a beautiful story, right? Because

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you've just you know, a lot of people talk about, you know, manifestation. And I always love the

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concept of manifestation, because it's like this, this belief that, you know, you put it out into

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the world and the fairies deliver ship, you know, like, from a psychological perspective,

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you can manifest things. And what you've just done is exactly that manifestation is actually

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telling the world what it is that you want, because the more that you vocalize the things

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that you're afraid to say that you actually want, the more the world can help you make that thing

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happen. And I think as women, we're so damn good at thinking, if I just do a good job, if I try

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really hard, someone might notice and someone might be a mind reader and work out that I want

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all these things and just magically arrive and give them to me. It's not how the world works.

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Yeah. And so like I said, getting it out of your head and just putting a voice to whatever it is

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that you want, if that is the only thing you do in the next week, and you do it with someone

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that's really safe to do it with, which is what you did, I guarantee you it's that is an act that

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is going to move you closer to whatever it is that you want. It's like a stepping stone and every

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little stepping stone of micro bravery is what gets you to where you want to be. Not taking someone

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said to my son, my son's an amazing soccer player. And someone said to him the other week, he sort of

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defaulted when he was going to take a shot. And it was like, where does the confidence go? And they

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said to him, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. Yeah. And I was like, Oh my gosh, I can use

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that in my work. That's freaking amazing. And this is the thing I see so many women that just aren't

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taking the shots. They're more than capable. Yeah. And this is the other thing that kills me, and

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especially women our age that I say, it's these women that are over credentialing. It's like I need

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to go and study a million things, right? Before I can put myself out there as that thing. And they're

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not I mean, they're not trying to be doctors. They're not, you know, they're not put doing

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surgery on people. The things that they are learning are things that they could, in many ways,

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practically apply right now. But they delay the application of the learning and they become

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self development junkies. And all it does, it's actually the development and the constant learning

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becomes the barrier to application and actually doing what you want to do. So I say that to create

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awareness because I know there are many women that domain, get out there and fucking do something,

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you know, like, it's great to learn. But if you're learning without application, it's knowledge

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without skill. Yeah. That resonates against so hard as someone who was in that exact cycle,

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right? I was like, no one will listen to me if I don't have a PhD behind my name. That'll,

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that'll limit my business forever. And here we are. And I feel like that as well, you know, like

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doing what we do, I feel like, oh, if we're not doctors, are people really going to take us

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seriously? But they do. Yeah, they realize, hey, you know what, you might actually know something

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even without, you know, the doctor before your name, because we've got the experience of it as

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well, you know, like living through things. And that kind of takes me on to my next question,

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which is, what about women who are busy? You know, they say, I want to do something,

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I just don't have the time. I'm busy with work. I'm busy with my family. I barely have time to

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see my friends. Like, how can they sort of move towards flourishing? So the first thing I'll say

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is my fundamental belief. And I have run programs around the world with thousands across cultures,

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around the concept of busy. And my belief is busy equals bullshit. Okay, so and the reason I say

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this is because busy has a word has no real meaning yet. So like, it has no meaning. And what I have

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discovered from the work that I do in this domain is busy is code for something else. So, you know,

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if your list, your listeners go back into their memory bank and remember the last time they told

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someone they were busy, and then ask themselves, what was the conversation in my head? What was I

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really saying? And more often than not, like I said, I've run this little exercise all around

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the place. More often than not, busy is code for I'm overwhelmed. I've got too much on my place.

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I feel like I'm never enough and it's never enough. Yeah, I don't have capacity for that.

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I'm a people pleasing perfectionist. And I can't say no. Like, there's so many different codes

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that sit behind busy. So actually, awareness is the first step to any change. So identifying what

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you are really saying when you're saying busy, is a really powerful way to start to address the

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busy. The second thing that I would say is remove the word from your vocabulary. Because that means

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you're going to have to be honest with yourself about what you're actually saying when you say

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you're busy. So one of the things I am a massive fan of, I mean, cognitive behavioral therapy in

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the psych world is one of the most powerful ways to make change, right? Which is basically, it's

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just, it's basically reframing. And your words are a brilliant way to reframe your inner

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conversation and how you show up in the world. And a beautiful example of this, which started

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my whole work in the busy domain was about seven years ago, I stopped using the word busy. And

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instead, I swapped it out and started to use the word positively engaged. Now it sounds crazy.

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I like it girl, I guess. But what happened was when people would stop me in the street,

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rather than give them the default, which we all do, I'm busy when they ask me how I am,

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which is not a conversation opener, it's actually a conversation closer. Okay, so it doesn't

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actually help you get to where you want to be quicker. It actually gives you a way to

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quicker. It actually disconnects you from people, which I don't think is ideal either. But I would

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say when they'd ask me how I am, I'm positively engaged, people would stop dead in their tracks,

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because it was so unexpected. And they would say to me, what do you mean? Like, what are you doing?

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And I would say, my life is full, but I'm doing things that I love. And then they were like,

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well, how'd like, then again, it opens the conversation. How did you get to that? Why are

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you like, how are you so different? Okay, so I would challenge your listeners, if they want

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to create or step closer towards flourishing on their terms, do what I call the busy equals

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bullshit challenge, remove the word from your vocabulary for one week and just observe what

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happens. You can replace it with another word like I did to reframe your mindset, or you can just not

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use it and watch what happens in your mind, because a busy mind will go to anxiety, it's only a matter

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of time, it will just spin the hamster wheel faster, the more you say the word, but equally,

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watch how it changes how you engage with people. And how by having more open conversations, rather

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than close ones, because you're shutting them down with busy can actually unlock the door to

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opportunities you never imagined possible. Amanda, I just discovered this super awesome,

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Akisi Tropical, just dilute it in some sparkling water and it tastes like you're sitting in the

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sun on an island far away. Oh, and I actually love their new berry flavor too. It has the trifecta,

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pre, post and probiotics. Akisi Science Forward approach means that I'm getting all the good stuff

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without any of the nasties and I can enjoy it any time of day. And the best thing you can get 15%

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their website akizewelness.com. Don't forget to try their elderberry boost and probiotic base

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products, which are actually perfect for babies too. And now back to the conversation. Okay,

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so pop quiz Jasmine. So if Penny is positively engaged, what are you instead of busy? It's

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actually really funny. I was going to say that I had a conversation with my sister yesterday,

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a brief conversation where I told her I'm really busy. I'll speak to you on Tuesday and I feel

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terrible. Oh my God, Sarita, I'm really, really sorry. What I meant to say was I actually feel

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overwhelmed. There's a lot going on and I do want to speak to you, but that was not the right time

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for me to sort of open up and have that conversation, but I will call you in on Tuesday. I promise.

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So maybe you should tell her that when you speak to her on Tuesday. I'll bet you it might change her.

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I will. Yeah. Yeah. How beautiful.

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So Penny, you're on a mission to help 20 sorry, 10 million women flourish by 2025.

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So what steps or strategies do you feel that women can take to, to start achieving, I guess,

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I mean, it's flourishment away. I was thinking flourishment. I was like, can we say that?

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Flourishment? I've just created a new word. Oh, so I use the word flourishing because my

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background's in psych and flourishing is basically the scientific term that speaks to living a

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wholehearted and fulfilled life. Like we spoke about with really good connections and doing

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things that actually make you, you know, that fill you up. The first place that I would start,

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if you want to live a more flourishing life, there's two things I would recommend.

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The first one would be sit down and ask yourself, what does a flourishing day look like for me?

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Now, I think we're very good and we're again, we're sold by the external environment, you know,

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create long-term goals, aim high, go big. I think that many women need to remove that piece because

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we're really good at it and actually focus on the day that you have in front of you. So what would

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an average flourishing day look like? What would you be doing? Who would you be doing it with?

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How would you be feeling? And then ask yourself, what are the micro moments that make you feel

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that way? What are the things? So I know for me, the micro moments that I have the power to bring

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into each day that recharge my batteries and make me feel like I'm flourishing is always some form

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of exercise and always at the start of the day because how I start my day sets the tone for my

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day. I know that meditating for me is really important and journaling because journaling

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allows me to get the shit out of my head onto a piece of paper so it doesn't block me in my day.

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It's about having moments of connection with my son and my dog, being out in nature. So these

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don't have to be hours and hours of things. It's like these are the micro moments throughout the

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day that enable me to feel like I'm flourishing. Equally, they recharge your batteries and make

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you feel good in terms of, you know, your mind gets recharged so you're more focused and more

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productive and your physiology gets recharged, which you know all about, Amanda, because

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you've taken that moment to sort of give back to yourself. So that would be the first thing.

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The other thing that I am a massive advocate of because of my studies with Dr. Gabor Maté

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is that one of the things women are terrible at is being compassionate to themselves. We are

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brilliant at showing compassion for everybody else. So if the only thing you take away from

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this podcast is to ask yourself on a daily basis, what would self-compassion look like for me today

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and you do that thing, that is going to make you feel a little bit more flourishing in each day.

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And you two as mothers of three, I guarantee that's something that you probably don't do a

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lot of either. Like, so what does self-compassion look like for you ladies today?

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Yeah, that is so, so helpful because you're absolutely right. I mean, you know, we were

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talking off air about how I have a newborn and luckily it's my third go-round with this, but

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I'm in a circle now with a lot of new moms, a lot of first-time moms, and you are absolutely

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right, Penny. I would say the biggest barrier between the first-time moms that I'm kind of in

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a room with and me is that they do not give themselves any grace. You know, their bodies

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aren't good enough, their babies aren't good enough, their parenting style isn't right,

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their kids aren't sleeping correctly. And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, like, let that all chill,

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you know, and it's hard to say right to a first-time mom that's in the trenches 100%.

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But if you show yourself a little bit of compassion with each of these comparisons,

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that they start to dissolve. You know, if you take away the kind of negative self-talk and

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the comparing to other moms, it actually just disappears. It really does. It's just easier

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said than done. Yeah. Well, the other word that you should be looking at, you know, if you're in

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that domain where it's like, you know, you, when women constantly say to me, I feel like I'm never

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enough and it's never enough. And I honestly believe this is driven by what I call the

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layers of should. Yeah. So we should all over ourselves. And the more we should, the less

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connected we are to our essence, the less connected we are to what we actually want.

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And so many women, when I ask them what it is that they want when they arrive on my doorstep

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for coaching, they don't know because they're so busy shooting all over themselves and pleasing

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everyone else that they're completely disconnected from what it was in the first place that actually

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made them feel like they were flourishing. And that's where I start a lot of my work. It sounds

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crazy, like smart, educated women don't know what they want because they've invested so much time

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trying to be something that they felt they should be rather than who they actually are.

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And I think there might be some women out there who are thinking, shit, you know what, I'm old

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now. I'm in my forties. It's too late. It's just, you know, what's the point? I'll just keep doing

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what I'm doing. This is how it is. Yeah, this is my life and you know, this is what I've

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picked or chosen. What would you say to those women? Bullshit.

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As someone who went back to university to do a second masters at the age of 47

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and went to study trauma with, as I said, one of the top trauma therapists in the world

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at the age of 48, you can still live your dreams no matter what age you're at. And I know that

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there's research out there that says women are the most successful female entrepreneurs are the

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women that go into it in their forties. And I think it comes back to we had an offline

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conversation before we started this podcast, where we were actually saying, like, for me,

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like I'm nearly at the I'm at the back end of my forties, but I call it, you know, it's like my

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zero fucks decade. It's like there is something about being older, wiser and more mature,

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where it's almost like you have permission to let go of, you know, caring so much what other

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people think of you because you realize you have this epiphany that it's like there are people in

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the world, no matter how good I am, how kind I am, how amazing I am, how credential I am,

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that still won't frickin like me, that will still judge me, they will always judge me.

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There will always be haters on social media, no matter what you do. So you can allow that to

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hold you back, you can allow that to inform the story that you tell yourself as a reason not to,

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or you can sit there and go, I'm not attached to it, because I can't control it. There's nothing

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I'm ever going to be able to do about that. But what I can control is who I want to be and how

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I want to show up and what I hear so often from mothers and the role model that I want to be to

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my child. And so if that's kind of where you want to play, your age is irrelevant. There are people

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at the age of 70 running marathons. I mean, come on. That's incredible. Absolutely. Well, and you

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know what you said about kind of dropping the likeability piece, you know, somebody once told

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me you won't be everyone's cup of tea, but for those who you are, they're coming back for refills,

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you know, and it's like I use that in my entrepreneur career as well. It's like, you

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know, the way that I coach and the way that I view fitness and health is not for everyone,

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but for those who it is, they coming back for refills. So free refills here, guys.

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We have actually come to the end of the interview today. And we really appreciate,

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you know, all of the knowledge and stuff that you have given us. It's been absolutely wonderful.

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But before we finish up, we have a question that we ask all of our guests. And it is what's your

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forties formula? What sort of wisdom would you share with our audience, those that are in their

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forties about how they can thrive in this decade? I love this idea of a forties formula. I feel like

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I should have been better prepared on this, but it's like, oh, but the brain works in three. So

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I would say start doing what you want, ask yourself what you want to do and start doing

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it because not enough women do what you want. So that's the first thing. Do what you want. It

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doesn't have to be like I did, but something small, an act of micro bravery and keep doing that. Do

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what you want, show yourself self compassion and do it on a daily basis because women have over 70%

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of their internal dialogue on average is negative. And the thing is, the more you speak to yourself

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negatively, the more you'll project like basically, you won't come across as confident. And if you

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don't believe in you, no one else is going to believe in you and give you what you want. Yeah.

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So self compassion, be kind to yourself. And the third thing is just have a go. Don't be attached

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to an outcome playing out a certain way, because there are so many things that you cannot control,

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but I guarantee you if you step towards the things that make you feel good towards flourishing and

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you do micro acts of bravery every day in that direction, I'll guarantee you where you'll land

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will not be where you expected, but you will find joy in that journey more so than perhaps what you

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are now. I love it. Do it, do it bravely and just do it. If that doesn't get you off your seat,

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I can't imagine what will. Thank you so much for having me ladies. Thank you. Thank you Penny.

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This has been so inspiring. I feel like, you know, we're going to get out there and do it now after

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hearing talking to you. This is Paul, our editor. He's a 25 year old unmarried Singaporean guy

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listening to the ramblings of 12 older women on everything from menopause to weightlifting to sex.

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So Paul, what's your thoughts on today's conversation? Hey, what's up? Paul here again.

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You know, success. It's something that I guess many of us define differently, but what,

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you know, what unifies that I guess is the whole concept of, you know, Penny mentioned about

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manifestation, basically telling the world what we want. You know, the more we vocalise and share

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people, the more people around us can help us make things happen. And that's a really cool

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concept, I guess, that you've brought to the table and also exposure therapy, try to do like one

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small thing every day that basically makes us feel uncomfortable. Sort of like small steps of

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micro bravery, but yet, you know, brings us always that one step closer towards the direction that

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we want to go. You know, Penny, thanks for sharing and I hope to catch you guys in the next season.

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See you guys.

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Real as much as possible here and we are going to keep that real life discussion coming to you and

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our seasons to come. Before we go, please remember to hit subscribe and take a moment to support the

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40s formula by leaving a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your reviews will help us to

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and support. Thank you for being part of this community and we'll be back next week for more

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empowering conversations with inspiring guests. Bye.

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Oh, look at that. I've got the thumbs up. Don't you love Zoom? Yeah. Start doing what?

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The listeners can't see it, but now we've got like sparkles and fireworks behind me on Zoom.

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Fireworks.