Yeah, I mean, I don't know, but I've seen the pictures.
I mean, they're sold in stores.
People will often ask their kids to go to the store and be like,
yeah, choose which cane you want.
Are they still sold in stores?
Okay, this is a big debate in our household because I'm convinced they are not sold anymore.
But where do you go? Where do you get your... not you.
You win a cane.
Where are canes commonly sold?
Like on the street, like the shops.
Like the mom and pop shops?
Underneath, like the HDB flats.
A lot of shops.
Yeah, even like if you go to a hardware store, you're going to find canes like hanging up,
different colored handles.
When can I get me one of these?
I'm like, I'm shocked.
I'm literally here in my American shock and Jasmine's like, wait a second.
I need three.
Hello and welcome to the 40s Formula,
your go-to place for insightful discussions on navigating your 40s
and thriving in this transformative decade.
We're your hosts, Amanda and Jasmine,
two women that are passionate about exploring the challenges and adventures
that come with turning 40 and what lies ahead.
Kelly Tay is a mom of two, a respectful parenting coach,
and the founder of Juicy Parenting.
She's best known for teaching Asian parents how to drop the cane,
stop the yelling, and actually enjoy parenthood.
With the vast majority of respectful parenting resources coming from the US and UK,
Kelly's distinctly Asian point of view makes her a unique voice in the space.
Prior to this career pivot, Kelly spent a decade in financial writing,
first as a journalist with the Business Times,
and then as chief editor at DBS Bank's Chief Investment Office.
And while Kelly continues to submit written commentary for Singapore's leading newspapers,
she also now applies her rigorous research skills to her parental coaching,
giving her clients evidence-based strategies
to raise their children with compassion and respect.
So Kelly Tay is here with us today,
and I have to address the elephant in the room,
which is that Kelly and I are actually neighbors.
We live on the same street and we see each other almost every single day,
but that's not how we met.
We actually met because we were following each other on Instagram,
and then we later realized that our sons had been in kitty class together,
and again, we were across the street neighbors,
so I'm so glad that I finally had the chance to chat with you in person.
Thank you.
Thank you for having me, and it's just such a proof that Singapore is such a small country.
Oh my gosh, the smallest.
I remember following you being like,
wait, are you that Amanda?
Something is familiar here.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah, no, thank you for being here.
And again, back to Instagram, right?
I love your tagline.
I help Asians stop hitting their kids.
That's about the best vouch for a coach that I could ever hear about.
And you know, I'm an Ang Mo.
I married into a Singaporean Chinese family.
I definitely see a diversity of parenting styles just not only within my family,
but within the generations in my family because we live in a multi-generational home.
And I'm wondering how you define Asian parenting.
Like, what does that even mean to you?
Yeah, so Asian parenting, let's talk about the good.
I think Asian parents are very well known for physically providing for the kids very well,
financially providing for the kids really well.
What they're not so good at though is the emotional aspect, right?
Validating emotions, helping people express and process emotions,
not just the good ones, but also the difficult ones that we're not so good at.
And being emotionally available for kids, not so good at that.
And I think when you think about traditional Asian parenting,
oftentimes it's very harsh.
It's characterized by very punitive discipline.
And you know, it's not just words, but it's also caning.
Like in Singapore, there's like rattan cane, you know, really...
Yeah, I mean, I don't know, but I've seen the pictures.
I mean, they're sold in stores.
People will often ask their kids to go to the store and be like,
yeah, choose which cane you want.
Wait, are they still sold in stores?
Okay, this is a big debate in our household because I'm convinced they are not sold anymore.
But where do you go? Where do you get your... not you.
You win a cane.
Where are canes commonly sold?
Like on the street, like the shops.
Like the mom and pop shops?
Underneath, like the HDB flats.
A lot of shops. Yeah.
Even like if you go to a hardware store, you're going to find canes
like hanging up different colored handles.
And then you can decide...
Where can I get me one of these?
I'm like, I'm shocked.
I'm literally here in my American shock and Jasmine's like, wait a second.
You know.
I'm Indian.
And so we kind of, we get that.
I'm British Indian, so I also get the emotional side.
But sometimes, oh my God, my kids do my nutting.
And I'm just like, I really want to slap you right now.
I won't even say it.
I'm not going to because it obviously, they do drive me nuts.
How can you stop yourself from, you know, getting to that point with your kids?
Because they don't fucking listen.
Yeah, I hear you.
So on the not listening, what I always tell my clients is that we say they're not listening.
But actually what we mean is they're not complying.
They're not doing what we want them to do.
I guarantee you they're listening.
They know what they're doing.
It's not okay with you.
They know what your boundary is.
They're just having a hard time complying with that boundary.
And that for us is very, very triggering.
And so for your question of how do I stop myself from hitting my kids, like I got cain
as a kid, very common in Singapore.
And what I always remind myself of is what do I want to teach my kid at the end of the
day?
And if I'm hitting, I'm teaching them that if someone pisses you off, go ahead, hit them
back.
Violence is the solution, right?
And it's very funny.
You know, oftentimes we're yelling at our kids, we're saying, stop shouting.
But we're shouting.
It goes nowhere because we're essentially telling them to do not do the thing that we
are doing.
And so I always kind of bring it back to what do I want to teach my kids in this moment?
What enduring lesson am I trying to provide?
And do I want them to solve their problems with violence, with icing someone out?
It doesn't have to be physical violence.
Can be emotional neglect.
It can be saying, you know what, I'm not talking to you until blah, blah, blah.
And I just kind of catch myself.
I don't do it all the time.
I'm not perfect.
You know, I teach this stuff and it's still hard for me.
And I think it's good to recognize that and to normalize that.
Like we are all humans.
Like this thing I tell my clients, like we're humans, we're not robots.
You are allowed to make mistakes.
What's important is what do you do after?
Can you repair well?
That's really crucial to me.
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Now back to the chat.
So I think when we talk about Asian parenting, what comes to mind is generally quite harsh,
quite punitive.
And so you know that tagline, I help Asian parents stop hitting their kids.
People often have a very visceral reaction to it.
So recently I had a talk at Google.
I was invited to speak to mums over there.
And the person who was organising it, she was like, can we tone this down a little?
Like when we introduce you, can we not use hitting kids?
And so we had a conversation about that, about how, you know, at the end of the day, we have
to call the spade a spade.
You know, it's important because this is how we move forward.
This is how we make changes.
If we continue just hiding behind euphemisms and things are not as bad as they are, no,
they're bad.
When we boil it down, we are hitting our kids.
That's not okay, right?
If you switch kids with spouse, that's not okay.
You can't hit your spouse, right?
Like you'll go to jail, but you can hit your kids.
And why?
Why the double standard?
Because they're younger, because they can't fight back.
Why?
And so I think that conversation is important to have.
And it's difficult to have because it is so ingrained in Asian culture, so ingrained.
And lots of times people tell you, but I got a cane, I'm fine.
What, you know?
So it is hard, but it is a conversation we have to have.
And that's why I've been stubborn about keeping that tagline that I help Asian parents stop
hitting their kids.
Yeah.
Well, some of us love it.
All right.
I'm all over your page because of that tagline.
But you sit on something that's always confounding to me, right?
So you've got this generational thing of the punitive discipline and the hitting the kids
and the caning.
And it's like, but then you've also got this Asian concept of filial piety.
Yeah.
Where it's like, you don't question the elders and you make sure that you are obeying.
How do you help break through the generational cycle of the hitting, but also maintaining
the respect?
Because I think that's where a lot of people's stopping point is.
Yeah, for sure.
I think, you know, with filial piety, one thing I want to make clear is that I love
the concept.
I think in its essence, in its true form, I love it.
And it's all about honoring our elders, respecting them, appreciating them.
That no problems with.
I think it's great.
Long may it continue.
What I have an issue with is when people say that that then means you cannot disagree with
your elders.
Even respectfully, it's not okay to say something different.
It's not okay to choose something different.
Then what happens is you have entire generations of people who are just doing what they're
parents expect them to do and want them to do.
But inside feeling very resentful, the parent-child relationship, even in adult stage, is crumbling.
It's not authentic.
And so that really doesn't serve anyone.
It doesn't serve the elders.
They don't have the relationship they want with their kids.
It doesn't serve the people who are now adults because they're not living the life they want
to lead.
And they're not parenting the way they want to.
And so I think the other component of filial piety is this idea of obligation, where I
am obliged to listen to you, to agree with everything you say, to say and to do what
you want me to do.
But I think that's really tricky, right?
Because at the end of the day, why do we want our kids to obey us out of obligation?
I want my kids to come and move along with the direction that I have set out because
they want to, because they see the wisdom in it, because they see me as a supportive
leader, not because they're like, oh, mother said so I have to do it.
So I think that concept of filial piety is always very tricky to me.
It feels very transactional.
It's like, because I've done all these things for you, you now have to do all these things
for me.
And I'm like, well, yes, I agree.
Wouldn't it be nice if our kids did do all the lovely things for us?
But the key difference is because they want to, not because they feel obliged to.
And I think about Chinese New Year.
I think about Raya recently happened.
And you know, people are often like, I hate going to these things.
I hate seeing my elders.
They're going to ask me intrusive questions.
They're going to push my boundaries.
But I can't do anything about it.
And when I think about that, I always feel it's such a shame.
What if we could have an authentic relationship with our elders where there was mutual respect,
where we didn't just say, OK, I'm just going to like quietly take this and then inside
be ragey?
Yes.
Like what example are we then setting for our kids?
So I would love to envision a world.
I would love if my kids, you know, 20 years from now came back for Chinese New Year because
they wanted to.
And because they love spending time with me.
And I also want to be clear on the Asian parenting bit.
When I talk about Asian parenting, a lot of times people then extrapolate that I'm saying
Western parenting has all the answers.
And I want to be clear that it is fruitless, right, to kind of pit the two against each
other.
For one, they're not monolithic.
There are similarities.
But, you know, not all Asian parents are the same.
Some don't hit their kids.
Not all Western parents are the same.
Some do hit their kids.
So they are separate.
We're not pitting the two against each other.
I'm not comparing.
I'm not saying this is better, that is better.
I'm saying let's look at Asian parenting, what it traditionally is, and how we can redefine
that in a modern age where we don't have to be punitive and harsh and hit our kids in
order to raise successful kids.
And I think the tragedy of all of this is that, in my view, Asian parents are kick-ass.
Kick-ass.
Like we are willing to do what it takes to give our kids a leg up.
You know, we will sacrifice stuff.
We will turn our lives around for them.
We will literally give them all the financial resources and keep very little for ourselves,
right?
So, Gal, I was balancing the books on our family budget the other day and I realised…
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And now, back to the chat.
We have that drive and that desire to do better.
I think we are great.
And imagine if we could just augment that with a more compassionate way of parenting.
Doesn't mean we have to be permissive, but more compassionate and bring that into parenting.
I think we would be unstoppable if we could do that.
I think that's brilliant.
And I feel like I get this kind of like conflict as well because you're talking about, you
know, like respecting your elders and I feel like I get that from above.
And then I'm seeing my kids, you know, I'm trying to teach them manners and, you know,
be respectful.
And then they'll go to school and, you know, some kid will be like, what?
And I'll be like, oh, you know, it's pardon.
But I can't say it's someone else's kid, you know, and then my kids pick it up.
So, I mean, is there a way that you can kind of get your kids to understand, you know,
like there is respect for your elders, but, you know, the way you talk to your friends
is very different the way you talk to your elders and how do you sort of manage it so
that your kids are not picking up bad behaviors from other people?
I mean, I feel like there's this whole sort of cobweb of things that you need to try to
do and it's so tough to do it all, you know.
It's very true and it's a very real thing, right?
Influences from school or from peer groups that come into your home and that's like,
no, I didn't sign up for that.
I didn't teach you that.
Yeah.
I think what I try to tell my clients is just focus on what you can control.
So you can't control what other kids are going to say and what your kid is going to be exposed
to.
What's really important is you can control at home what boundaries you set and what expectations
you set.
If they come home with some what instead of pardon, then it can be, hey, I know you may
be hearing these things at school and it's okay to experiment.
I just want to let you know that a better way to say that is pardon.
Let me tell you why.
And then, you know, you can explain.
But I think it's really important to not come in and be like, you say one more time, I bring
the kid.
I think it's really important to not go there because then it just becomes a power struggle.
No one wins, right?
In a power struggle, nobody wins.
First is coming to it as, hey, I'm not seeing the worst in you.
I'm not seeing you as coming in and deliberately being a little shit, right?
I'm seeing you as you're curious.
You picked up something.
You're learning.
You're testing the boundaries.
Is this acceptable at home?
What is mom going to say?
And then mom comes in and says, yeah, this is what I believe.
And that's really, really important because a lot of times parents feel, you know what,
I have no control over this, so I'll just let it slide.
No, do not let it slide.
That's permissive parenting.
We've got to come in with authority and be clear on what we expect to see from our kids.
The key is doing it without being punitive and without having this like power dynamic
of like, do it because I said so.
It's more, I'm telling you, this is my expectation.
This is why.
And I will work with you to develop that skill.
And I think skills building is so important.
A lot of times people think that I'll say it to my kids once and they're going to get
it.
But like that doesn't happen.
And people get very frustrated.
They feel like they should know by now.
And I'm like, you are allowed to feel frustrated.
Also remember you're dealing with a kid and kids brains don't fully develop to like the
late twenties.
The part of the brain that's responsible for emotional regulation and impulse control,
the ability to say pardon instead of what, right?
Like those things really, your brain fully develops in your late twenties.
So it's a skill.
It takes time.
If we can give our kids that grace, then I think we will all be happier in general because
you know, no kid wants to feel like my mom only sees the worst in me all the time, you
know?
So that's something I try to remember.
And I will acknowledge that it's hard to remember in the moment because it's like you little
shit.
I'm definitely going to struggle with that because like, obviously the first time they
say something they're not supposed to, like I think one of the kids used fuck once and
I was just like, okay, look, we don't speak like that in this house.
It's not good.
You don't want your teacher to hear you saying it.
I hear you saying it to my eldest son.
I'll say, look, whatever you say with your friends is fine.
Just don't say it around your brothers.
Don't say it around elders.
Definitely don't want, you know, myself or any of the other elders to hear you say, speak
that way.
And then the other day we were at dinner and my eldest son, who is nearly nine, says to
one of the twins, swear to God for whatever they were talking about.
And he goes, I'm sorry, I shouldn't laugh at this, but he goes, fuck you God.
I was like, oh my God, like what did he just say?
And obviously he knows as well not to use that word.
And he was like, I got confused.
I thought he told me to swear to God.
And then obviously I reacted straight away.
And then after, after I calmed down, I basically told him like, okay, Ken, I understand you
got confused.
He didn't actually mean swear at God.
He meant was, you know, you need to promise not to do that.
So we had to explain it, but obviously my initial reaction was like, yes, it's so tough,
isn't it, to sort of in the moment, try to remember to be calm when all this is going
on.
My kids are tiny, tiny, right?
So my kids are four, two and brand new.
And I remember seeing somewhere that when you're about to lose your ass on these kids,
look at their little hands and their little feet and just remember, well, I'm like literally
crying.
This is sad.
See, this is what I meant about being soft, but it's like, remember how their brains are
so still developing and they're so small and the mistakes they're making are not because
they want to, you know, they're because they're little, they're learning.
You're getting teary.
Can somebody help me?
But that being said about learning, right?
I think one of the big learning experiences in our household is having my Singaporean
Chinese traditionally raised husband and my very American, very Western way of parenting
clashing together.
And it's not always a clash, but sometimes it's an accidental one.
We don't realize that the other one had such a different upbringing that what that person
is about to do is completely foreign to us.
Do you work with a lot of mixed families like ours?
Do you, do you see that clash and how do you do help families deal with that?
Yeah, I do actually.
You know, it's interesting.
So being the journalist, I am looked at the population numbers of the latest available
numbers in 2022, one third of all citizen marriages were transnational.
Wow.
One third.
Yeah.
Look at us.
And that represents a 29% increase from the year before in 2021.
Oh, wow.
30% in just one year.
So COVID all the mixed couples got together.
Yeah.
So I mean, I don't think it's going anywhere.
Right.
And I see this reflected in my client base as well.
I do get quite a few clients who are both Singaporean or Asian and then non-Asian.
And what your experience is exactly what their experience is and what mine is, my husband's
Canadian.
And I think sometimes for us in these sorts of marriages, the starkness of that contrast
is very visible immediately.
And it's actually a good thing because it forces you to be a little bit more intentional
and a little bit more reflective on like, huh, if that person had such a different response
and a different upbringing, what does that mean?
Does that mean mine was right?
Not right?
Does that mean his was right?
Not right?
Where do we land here?
And I think sometimes that's a bit harder to tease out when you have marriages that
are from the same culture because you likely have a similar upbringing.
However, at the same time, even in those marriages, there will be differences because no two families
are the same.
Maybe even the way how you argue, how you decide whether you're going to cane or not
cane, there will be differences in there.
And what I always tell my clients is to pay attention to those differences because they
are a good point of reflection to just say, hmm, okay, clearly there's a different way
of doing this.
Where do I land now?
And you know, the beauty of being a parent is that you now have your own chance, your
own opportunity to set a different path for your kids.
You know, there's an expiry on blaming your parents.
You don't get to just, you know, and what is that expiry?
I'm going to mark that my calendar for 2052.
Yeah, I mean, in adulthood, at some point, we do have to let that go and decide, okay,
what are we doing now?
And I think for me, once I understood that, it was so liberating for me.
It was like, wow, I'm the boss, I get to do what I want.
And not in a, you know, power hungry, Godzilla way, like I'm going to trample on everything,
but really in a wow, I can step into my own power.
I can decide what this looks like for my family, whether I'm taking a little bit from what
my husband's culture does, whether I'm holding on to some of what my culture does, whether
I'm creating something different, wholly different in the process.
That's very empowering for me.
Yeah.
And I think, you know, I was just trying to think of an example that came up at our house
recently, right?
So perfect example, I've got my four year old daughter, is a girl, daughter, and my
two year old's a son, right?
And my two year old, when they get home from school, they change from their school uniforms
into their regular clothes, right?
And there was one day where my son took off his pants and was running around the house
and everyone was like, oh, you know, Archie, put on your pants.
And then my daughter took off her pants and went running around the house.
And my father-in-law was like, oh, Louise, put on your pants.
Shame, shame, shame, shame, shame, shame.
And I was like, okay, a couple things here.
Number one, it is really weird for me to hear like, shame, shame, shame, shouted at a kid.
It's like definitely not something that we would do in Western parenting where you're
just like, you know, just the act of running around is shameful.
And secondly, it was directly for her.
Archie was pantless for like three minutes prior, but when she got pantless, shame, shame,
shame.
And that was one of those stark differences where I was like, wow, I don't know that my
husband sees how weird this is.
So that night when we were going to bed, I was like, I found that really weird when your
dad shouted shame at Louise for taking off her pants.
And he was like, oh, yeah, I guess that was weird.
But he no one had ever called his attention to it.
You know, this is the first time.
So I think, like you said, it's a jumping off point for conversations and perhaps nowhere
clearer than with discipline.
And that's such a huge theme on your page, which is how do we establish healthy discipline
for kids and how do we stay consistent with our discipline across caregivers?
In our house, we have five adult caregivers, my two in-laws, myself and my husband and
my helper.
So what are some tips that you have for keeping discipline consistent across that?
Yeah, yeah.
It's a great question.
And it's a very real question that people face all the time.
And especially in an Asian culture, where we do parent with other caregivers, we rely
very much on grandparent help, much more so than in other societies where you move away
from your family unit.
And then we also have helpers.
And so there are a lot of cooks in the kitchen.
Yeah, there sure are.
So the first case I always start with is to tell people to think about the meaning of
the word discipline first.
Let's just get clear on what discipline means.
Because a lot of times people see discipline as it's something where the parent has to
come in and lay the smack down.
I mean, honestly, yes.
That's what I thought when you said it.
Okay, so I think about discipline very differently.
And so I studied literature in school.
I was a journalist.
I'm very wordy.
I like looking to the meaning of words.
And so actually, if you peel back the etymology of the word discipline, it's actually from
old Latin.
And it's closer to the idea of a disciple, where the idea behind it is instruction and
teaching, not laying the smack down.
Wow.
So it's more about looking at your kids as disciples in the midst of formation, rather
than little ships who are hell bent on ruining your life and you have to lay the smack down.
So just getting clear on like discipline is actually teaching.
That can really help.
It brings it back to what I said earlier about how think about what lesson are you trying
to teach your kids.
So in terms of getting everyone on the same page, first of all, having a conversation
about that can be helpful.
You know, we're coming to discipline as we are teaching our kids something.
They are in the midst of formation and we are here as the leaders for them.
That can be helpful.
Now when it comes to everyone on the same page after that conversation, the first question
I ask people to ask themselves is, are these people even open and receptive to my message?
Because if they're not, you can say it 50,000 times in a million different ways and it's
not going to land because they're not open and it's nothing to do with you.
It has nothing to do with your message.
They're just not open.
Yeah.
And so in those cases, that's okay.
I think we stress about everyone having to do all the things the same way as us doesn't
have to be that way.
We can just accept that, you know what, I cannot control other people.
I can only control myself and I have lots of work to do on myself already.
So let's start there.
And I always tell people all is not lost.
A lot of times people will feel like, you know, a very real example, one of my clients,
she was trying to be more patient at the dinner table.
Kid was taking a longer time to eat and the husband likes to bring the cane out and whack
the table and say, if you don't finish your food, this is coming.
All right.
And so she's trying to, you know, parent her kids in a different way.
And then the husband's here and she feels this frustration.
She's like, you are undermining me.
You're undermining all the good work I'm doing.
And I'm like, yes, your frustration is valid.
However, try not to see it as undermining because your kid understands that mom has
a different way.
Your kids are super smart.
They recognize mom has this way, dad has this way.
And ultimately at the end of the day, our kids and the adults in their lives will get
the relationship that they deserve.
Yeah.
And they know that like mom is the headmaster, right?
So they get that right.
I think it depends.
And I think at the end of the day, you know, our kids, it's good for them to experience
different parenting styles, different authority styles, because that's the real world.
Not everyone is going to be like us at home, right?
They're going to meet really alcoholic bosses and coworkers one day.
And it's good for them to learn how to deal with different personality types.
What I do stress though is that if there can be at least one kid in your child's life,
assuming the person's listening to this, that would be you.
One kid, one adult in your kid's life who can be that safe adult who is not going to
shame and blame and be punitive with them all the time.
That is huge.
That's all you need really, just one person.
And it's okay that not everyone else is on the same page.
If they are receptive, going back to that first question, if they are receptive, have
a conversation.
And how you have that conversation is really important.
Because if we come to it with a lot of like, you know, when I was a kid, you did this to
me, I didn't like it.
No one's going to listen to that, right?
Coming in, being very clear that like you had your ways and I think that's what you
knew and you did your best.
I recognize that you did your best.
That line can be so disarming and help.
And some parents will still be like, oh, I don't like what you're saying.
But you know, just taking the care to be very clear that I am not blaming you.
This does not come as an indictment of your parenting.
This comes as we all have our best interests at heart with our kids, like the grandkids
now.
Let's have a different way forward.
And then being very clear that this is not your subjective opinion.
This is what psychologists say.
And for some of my clients, they use me.
They'll like show my picture and be like, I've hired this person as my parent coach.
She's saying it.
I'm not saying it.
That can really help, actually.
So a lot of clients have told me that like showing them this resource, they're like,
oh, okay, it's not you.
You are not, you know, saying I'm wrong.
She is saying there are better things we can do.
It's not personal anymore because someone is a third party.
And actually, one of my clients had a really heartwarming story.
She had a really difficult relationship with her mom growing up.
And when she told her mom about, you know, she had joined juicy parenting and was learning
all these things, her mom actually said, good on you.
And she expressed regret and remorse.
And she said, you know, in my time, I didn't have parent coaches.
I didn't have this kind of membership and resource where I could ask any parenting question
and get it answered.
I didn't have that.
She said, good on you that you are seeking this out and you are finding a different way.
She didn't go so far as to apologize.
But it seems like huge.
Let's not be crazy here, Caroline.
But that's huge.
And it was so big for her.
She shared this and, you know, it's just, it's, I think we have to give our parents
credit too.
And one thing that my, it's so nice.
One of my members, a dad actually, said this really nice thing that our parents' ceiling
becomes our floor, meaning so the best that they did becomes our starting place.
And now we build from that.
And then our kids will have our ceiling as their floor.
And it's such a nice way to think of breaking intergenerational cycles, you know?
And like when it comes to filial piety, another member, a dad actually, had this great thing
to say about filial piety.
At first, he was really one of my most skeptical clients.
He was just like, there's no way this works.
We've got to hit our kids.
Like, no, we have to like rule with an iron fist.
And he said, because my mom ruled with an iron fist and I'm great, look at me.
And he's a very high flying guy.
And after doing my course and reflecting and really trying to put it into practice, he
came back in a different coaching call and he said, you know, I've had a completely different
way of thinking about this.
And he said, with filial piety, it's all about honoring our parents and continuing their
legacy, right?
And he says, if I continue to do what my mom did, which was rule with an iron fist, extremely
punitive, extremely harsh, I'm not actually respecting her legacy because I'm just doing
what she did before.
If I can go further and do better than what she did, that is truly honoring her memory.
And I was like, Mike drop using that forever from now on.
Credit goes to Young.
And I think that is just such a good way of putting it.
And he also talked about how, you know, for men, it's such a, it's a different way to
think about these things.
Men don't have the same feelings of like, I want to do better for my kids.
It's more of a fear based feeling of like, no, but if I don't do that, my kids won't
be successful.
And so once he turned his mindset around, now he's all in, like he is star student.
His relationship with his kids have completely turned, like it's amazing to watch.
And I'm just, every time I hear stories like this, I'm like, yes, we've got to keep going.
We've got to keep going.
Exactly.
You know, what you're doing is valuable, girl.
It's important.
Yeah.
So when, before I had kids, my husband and I had this conversation, like if either one
of us is saying something to the kids, the other one should not go in and undermine and
do the opposite.
Cause I've seen it before, you know, where one parent will be shouting at the kid or
telling them to go to the room with the other parent and let them come out and blah, it's
okay.
Yeah.
You know, how do you manage that sort of situation where the child is getting sort of mixed signals
like, oh, it's all right, mom's shouting, but dad's going to let me out or vice versa.
How, how do you sort of go ahead and sort of make sure that boundaries are in place,
but they're not getting these mixed signals like, oh, you know what, my parents don't
have a union in this, in this space so I can just do whatever I like.
Yeah.
I think the first thing to do is what you and your husband did, which is have a conversation
even before you have kids.
It's so important to explore that.
Like, what happens if you say this and I say that, right?
Having that conversation beforehand just to lay it out on the table is good.
It's not going to be enough because when you're in the situation, a different thing happens.
And so I think what's really, really important in those situations is tap each other out.
So instead of coming in and undermining or doing the opposite, have an agreement that
you will tap each other out when you see the other person's at the end of their rope and
nothing good is going to come from whatever comes out next.
Just be like, okay, I've got this.
You go relax.
I've got this.
And it's important to talk about this beforehand because in the moment it can feel like, no,
I'm going to double down.
You know, I'm going to dig my heels in deeper.
It's so important to chat about that much before.
Let's say that has already happened.
Mom has said this and that went and did something else.
All is not lost.
I think it's important to debrief with our kids after to be very clear with them that,
you know, earlier you saw this happen and then that happened.
I want to let you know, mom and dad are discussing what to do going forward.
We want to make sure that that doesn't happen again.
We are going to be having that discussion and I will come back to you to let you know
what our expectation is the next time around.
And then what's important is you and your husband then need to have that conversation
that night or sometime when everyone is calm and reset, what is the boundary you're going
to draw and agree with it?
I think that is so key.
I think people see that as like a kid's issue, like a parenting issue, but it's not.
It's an adult issue.
It's a marriage issue.
Talk about that first.
I love that you said, you know, when everything is calm, go back and talk about it because
I feel like in the heat of the moment, you will just say whatever just to let it off
your chest.
But you're right, going back at a different point and then going and talking about it
when everything's calmer does sort of put everything into perspective.
So making notes, mental notes.
Well, and that brings up a really good point that I wanted to talk about that you address
a lot in your on your Instagram page, which is this concept of mom rage.
Yeah.
And just I have that.
Yeah, your absolute shit.
And this is something that is so hard for me.
This is a pinch point for my parenting, which is when I lose my shit on one of my kids or
on my husband in front of my kids.
And I and both times it ends up with me hating myself thinking about it all night long.
The kids are sleeping like little perfect angels and I'm still just ruminating on, you
know, me doing whatever and saying whatever.
How do you help women, particularly this is for women, handle their mom rage?
And then you mentioned earlier about debriefing with the kids.
Right.
So it's like, how am I addressing my mom rage in that?
Because I'm thinking about it all night moment.
And then the next morning when I'm waking up the kids, how do I then debrief with them
in a way that is constructive?
Yeah, this is so important.
Mom rage is a very real thing.
And it's not just you, it's everybody.
Honestly, it's okay.
Thank you.
Thank you, Kelly.
That's what I needed to hear.
All of our listeners needed to hear.
If people are honest with themselves, mom rage is real.
Yeah.
And everyone goes through it.
And there's a very good and real reason why.
So if we think about little girls, how often are they allowed to express their rage?
Really not often at all or not at all.
And you know, you think about how little girls hear things like, don't be angry, you know,
turn that frown upside down.
And you hear things like, you know, once you start getting angry, once you start frowning,
you're not pretty anymore.
Do you want to be pretty?
That's my in-laws right there.
So ugly, ugly face.
Yeah, whatever my daughter expresses a negative emotion.
Yeah.
And so as kids, particularly girls, we internalize the idea that rage is not okay.
Anger is not okay.
We're not allowed to express it.
But the problem is your feelings will come out.
They will come out.
And there's no such thing as, you know, repressing and repressing forever.
It just gets worse.
It's going to come out.
And a lot of times it comes out when we are mothers and when we have kids because they
trigger in us what we weren't allowed to do as children.
Oh, yeah.
And so I think number one, to understand that it makes sense that mom rage is a thing.
If you think of how little girls are parented, it makes sense.
And a lot of times what's underneath rage, it's fear.
It's the fear that you're not doing enough.
It's the fear that you're raising entitled kids and brats.
This is fear and underlying all of that is, oh, I'm a bad mom.
And then everything implodes.
And so I think starting from a place of accepting that, you know what, this is, it makes sense
I have this rage inside of me.
I was never allowed to express it.
And I have very real fears that are powering this rage.
Starting from that point and understanding and accepting and having grace for yourself
is so important.
And then as for what you can do about it, you know, the debrief is so important.
A lot of times parents will find that, you know, their kids are sleeping like angels
and then they wake up the next morning and they're cool.
They're skipping off to school.
They're like, hi, mom.
They don't seem to have any kind of lingering feeling, whereas it's us who are ruminating
inside.
And I always tell people, don't assume that your kids are cool.
They are cool because they're skipping off.
However, the feeling that they might have is likely still there.
They just don't really know how to express it, especially if your kids are very young.
And so it's always important to have a debrief.
And the one line I ask people to remember is my feelings are my responsibility, not
yours.
Right.
So when we apologize to our kids, I'm a big fan of never apologizing with the word, but
in there.
So just, I'm sorry I yelled at you.
No, but you were throwing whatever, whatever, whatever.
You know, it's, it's important to just own what we did wrong.
It doesn't matter what the cause is.
No conditional apologies.
Yeah.
So I'm sorry I yelled and then just say like, what you noticed, what did the yelling then
elicit?
So I'm sorry I yelled.
You were frightened when I yelled and I want you to know my feelings are my responsibility.
I am working on how to express my anger in healthy ways because you don't deserve to
be my punching bag.
You know, you deserve to be my emotional punching bag.
And it's so powerful for a kid to hear that because think of the message they are learning
about their self-worth.
They're now learning they are not responsible for other people's feelings.
You know, I don't have to take on my mother's mom rage.
I don't have to be a good girl and sit there and be like, okay, I just won't move until
mom is happy again.
You know, and that's, that's huge for women, the women that they then grow into.
And so mom rage is a topic that's very dear to my heart.
And I really just want to normalize the fact that, you know, everyone give yourself grace.
You are not a monster.
You, there are many, many reasons and that has gone on for generations.
Why women have such a difficult time expressing rage in a healthy way and please go to therapy.
It really, really helps.
And I think in Asian cultures, especially, there's a lot of stigma around therapy.
It's like you have something wrong.
Therefore you have to go to therapy.
But I really see it as like performance coaching.
Athletes get it, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
You get, you get a coach to help you see where you could do better, what blind spots you
have.
Why wouldn't that be the case for our internal mindscape as well?
I feel like therapy needs a new brand, rebranding.
Therapy needs some new juice.
And I think for me personally, therapy has helped me a lot with mom rage because it's
helped me understand why I get raging in the first place.
And once I understand that I can kind of just accept, yeah, you know, I was never really
allowed to express rage as a kid and explore, okay, how can I express it in a more, in a
way that doesn't scare my kids?
I'm allowed to feel rage.
All feelings are okay.
Not just happy ones, also sad and angry ones.
They're all okay.
I had a comment from my eldest son.
He said, mommy, you're always shouting.
I'm like, oh, God, yeah, I know.
But then I did like, I think they know the difference between me sort of talking loudly
when I'm like trying to get them to turn the TV off so we can get out for school.
And then obviously clearly ignoring my response of TV needs to go off now we need to go to
school to when I really shout and then they'll always say, oh, you scared me.
And I'm like, that was the point.
I do it.
But to the point where, you know, it's to scare you so you don't, you know, step out into the road and there's a car coming.
You know, it's like an immediate response for you to stop doing what you're doing.
And I think they kind of know the difference between my my shouts and my shouts.
You know, that's such a good point, because if we're shouting all the time, like shouts
all the time, then they're not going to actually hear it when we really need.
Yeah.
Like you said, when it comes to danger, the mom who cried wolf.
The mom who shouted wolf.
Exactly.
Like we have to reserve those moments for when it really calls for it, where there is
imminent danger.
Yeah.
And I think I think there needs to be that differentiation as well, because there have
been moments, you know, like, I don't know, one of them will kick a ball or something.
And then it's like immediately like stop.
You know, and they're like, you scared me.
I'm like, that was the whole point, because then you kind of stopped what you were doing.
And I think you kind of need to have that moment.
Whereas, you know, if your mom is always shouting, I mean, I'm shouting, but I think it's more
sort of loud voices like, damn the bloody TV.
Actually, can we talk about turning the TV off?
Oh, yes, please.
So, you know, one of the things I hear often is I have to nag so much.
I have to say it over and over again.
I have to repeat myself.
And that's a big trigger for a lot of people in part because when they were young, they
felt unheard.
So having to repeat yourself over and over again ignites that resentment of like, hear
me.
You know, so, okay, first of all, there's that.
But I always say that, you know what, if you're feeling that it's time to stop repeating yourself,
stop having to go there.
So I always say, tell your kid what you expect, right?
So in five minutes, the TV is going to be turned off.
And then five minutes, if you want, at the two minute mark, say it again, if you're able
to.
And then at the five minute mark, they don't want to turn the TV off, right?
And then so be very clear that, yep, it's been five minutes.
You can turn the TV off or I can, you decide.
They don't want to turn it off.
Okay, thanks.
I'll decide for you then.
They're going to turn it off and just accept that they're going to be unhappy about it.
No kids going to be like, okay, mom, you're the best.
Thanks for forcing that boundary, mom.
They're not going to just accept that that resistance is going to come and you are doing
your job.
It is okay for your kids to be mad at you.
They are allowed to be upset with the decision you've made.
And I think that can be so helpful because a lot of times people move into permissive
territory because they're like, oh, if I go turn it off, they're going to be upset.
I'm going to have to deal with a meltdown.
Like that's how you move into permissive territory.
Don't do that.
Just be clear and accept that the meltdown is going to happen.
They are allowed to be upset.
The TV is still getting turned off.
And Kelly, you have given us so many actionable tips like that today.
And I thank you so, so much for being here to, you know, for us to hear those and start
to practice those in our everyday parenting.
But one of our big questions that we ask all of our guests, and I would love to get this
view from a parenting coach.
Again, your kids are very similar in age to my kids, right?
So we've got young kids.
How would you describe your forties formula?
Knowing that a lot of our listenership has older kids, right?
tweens, teens, they're going into that age.
What is your overarching forties formula that parents in this decade can use to help them
establish better relationships?
Yeah, I love that question.
I love that you ask everybody this question.
Yeah, this is our big one.
I mean, that's why we created this podcast.
So good.
I mean, I would say that, you know, for us, when our kids are young, the transgressions
are minor, spilling a cup of water, drawing on the wall with markers, right?
But when they're older, when they're teens, it's going to be things like dating an unsavory
character, coming back from the bar with someone who's offering to drive you home, but they've
been drinking too, right?
And I think it's really important to keep that perspective in mind that the work we're
doing now, even in women in their forties with older kids, the work you're doing now
is so important because we're going to get to that stage where kids are going to be making
mistakes that are much more life altering with much bigger consequences.
And how willing are they to come and tell us their mistakes?
That all starts now with how we respond to the little mistakes today.
So all the investments you are making into having a trusting relationship with your kids
as a woman in your forties, that is going to pay off when you're in your fifties, in
your sixties, and when they come back for Chinese New Year later on or Thanksgiving,
whatever it is, you know, both or all of the above.
Christmas.
It's all going to pay off.
So really stay the path of cultivating a deep and mutually respectful relationship with
your kids.
Respect can't just go up.
It has to go down to our kids.
They will feel that.
And that's when, you know, when they're at the sidewalk deciding, should I jump into
this drunk driver's car or should I not?
That's when they're going to be like, you know what?
I'm not going to.
Instead, I'm going to call my mom.
She's not going to be happy that she got woken up at three in the morning, but she's
going to be my safest ride home tonight.
And I would rather call her than jump into this drunk dude's car.
And I think that is a North Star that we can hold with ourselves to know that this will
get better in the decades to come.
This is the foundation we are setting up to lead our kids, but also ourselves up for success.
Amazing.
Thank you so much, Kelly.
Again, I think you've made both of us feel like more confident parents just sitting across
the table from you.
So thank you for being here today.
And again, for our listeners, I know that you provided a ton of valuable, actionable
tips today.
So we really thank you for being here.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you.
This is Paul, our editor.
He's a 25 year old unmarried Singaporean guy listening to the ramblings of 12 older women
on everything from menopause to weightlifting to sex.
So Paul, what's your thoughts on today's conversation?
Hey guys, what's up?
Paul here.
So for this episode, Kelly, you mentioned about Asian parenting and about compliance.
And I think I could really relate to these topics because I'm Asian and Singaporean Chinese
and I grew up in most of my life, if not all in Singapore.
And yeah, I know about the whole idea of filopiety, but of course not to the point of like complete
obedience and you know, but you know, being able to honor elders and respect them, you
know, appreciate them, but at the same time, you know, be who you are yourself.
I think that's really nice and really important and that it's okay to disagree with them and
it's okay to, you know, be better than them, I guess in many other ways.
So I also love you mentioned, you know, the point of discipline, but you know, the rule
of discipline is to disciple rather than to, you know, to basically like whip them and
whatnot.
It's more like an instructional and teaching idea and that's really amazing.
You know, like sort of like what lesson you're trying to teach your kids.
I don't have kids, but of course one day if I do, then that's something that I will definitely
keep in mind.
So thank you for that.
See ya.
Guys, you know how much we love coffee?
And if you want to show us some love, you know, you can get us one.
Just visit buymeacoffee.com slash the forties formula.
Cheers.
Peter Lowe left us this review after listening to episode six with Tina.
Love that you ladies are keeping it real and sharing personal stories.
Love listening to this podcast on my walks.
Keep up the great work.
Also, I like the little Easter eggs at the end of the podcast.
Very Marvel.
LOL.
Well, we are so glad that you love Ponderings with Paul at the end of our podcast.
We're definitely going to keep that coming.
And also, we appreciate you walking while you listen.
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Bye.
Yeah.
We didn't even get into like screen time phone news, but it's like that's that's the stuff
it's like I lose my shit over things like scribbling on the wall.
Yeah.
And it's like that is such a I'm going to pray for scribbles on the wall.
The first time they come home with like some like sexy text on their Snapchat or you know
whatever.
And I'm like, what the hell is this?
Exactly.
Yeah.
And the only chance we get of seeing that Snapchat text is if we establish this because
otherwise they're going to hide it.
They're going to know mom flips the shit out.
Yeah.
When anything untoward happens, hell no.
She's going to see this.
But I want my kids to be like, you know, this dodgy dude messaged me today.
Have a look.
I want that relationship.
I didn't have that with my mom.
I was like, let's go together and find him.
I was going to get a shit out of him.
And you can watch me lay down this guy.
That's why you do cross.
Yes.
I mean, honestly, I know I pick him up and throw him.
I said, when when our kids are teens, that is my time to shine.
Yes.
They'll get all my jokes.
Yeah.
I'll be able to sarcasm them right in the face and they'll understand that I'm, you
know, pulling their leg.
It'll be great.
I can't wait.
Give me 10 years.
I'm going to be a good kid.