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Beyond Goodbye is a podcast that explores dying, death, and grief and therefore may contain

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sensitive or distressing material that could be triggering for some individuals and is

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not suitable for all listeners.

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Therefore, listener discretion is advised.

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Hello and welcome to Beyond Goodbye, a show that empowers listeners to engage with death

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and grief in a healthy and transformative way.

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My name is Angela Sturm and I am your host as well as the Creatrix of Beyond Goodbye.

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Our focus in this episode will be around defining grief versus grieving and what each looks

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like.

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But first we begin with a real life story of loss and the story we have for you today

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is about four bodies dumped in a cornfield, two of which were my children and the siblings

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of my guest who happens to be my son, Zachary Pettis.

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This is our story in our first episode titled Bodies in a Cornfield.

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I'm sure some of you may have heard or read about a SUV found by a farm hand dumped in

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a cornfield in Dunn County, Wisconsin two years ago.

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When the farm hand looked inside the vehicle he found four deceased people, two men and

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two women.

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Two of those victims were my children, Jasmine Sturm and Matthew Pettis.

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The other two victims were Jasmine's longtime friend, Natasha Fluke Presley and Jasmine's

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boyfriend, Lois Foreman.

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All four had been shot in the head but Matt and Lois had been shot twice in the head.

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They had a suspect, Antoine Suggs, who later turned himself in after fleeing to Arizona.

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In 2023 Antoine was found guilty of murder and currently is serving a hundred plus year

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sentence in prison.

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Back in 2021 when I first learned Jasmine and Matt were missing, it was a Sunday and

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I was watching football.

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My Tasha's aunt had called me and asked if I knew where the girls were because Tasha

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was missing.

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So I knew that Jasmine had to work that evening as did Matt.

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They worked at the same place on the weekends.

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So I gave her workplace a call and neither of them had shown up for work which was unusual.

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So I called to a couple friends and then finally called her son, my grandson and he was upset

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and said that they hadn't come home.

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He never called us.

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So I called Tasha's aunt back and we decided to make phone calls to the police stations,

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hospitals, you know just to kind of see if maybe they got on accident because you don't

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ever think that someone you love or anyone, your friend, family, you don't think something

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like murder happens to them.

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We couldn't find them.

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They weren't in any hospitals.

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They weren't in any jails.

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And very late in that evening, Tasha's aunt called me back again and said that a Dunn

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County detective had called her and was talking to her about some vehicle they had found and

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that she thought that they were all dead.

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Now my head, my mind at the time was like, there's no way they're dead.

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They're just, I was mad because I was thinking their phones had turned off and they were

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just somewhere.

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So I told her that not possible.

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They're not dead.

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But then after a couple of hours, it's late now.

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It's we're into early Monday morning.

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I decided to give Dunn County a call.

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I wanted to call the coroner's office and ask if they had bodies brought in.

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So I called, asked that I was put on hold for a very long time and they had transferred

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me to a Dunn County detective.

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It sounded like he was outside and in retrospect, it turned out he was at the crime scene.

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But at the time, I didn't know that.

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And as we were talking, I told him who I was and I asked him if there were deceased bodies

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there and if two of them were my children.

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He had told me he couldn't tell me what they had or identify anyone.

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But he then asked me if I had the passwords to Matthew and Jasmine's cell phones.

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And then I knew that they were dead.

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After I got off the phone with them, I called my dad.

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I was sitting outside in my driveway and I told him they were dead, that they had been

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murdered.

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I think he yelled or screamed.

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I don't remember a lot of it.

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I don't even remember crying.

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I went back into the house and I kind of sat in the dark.

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Zach was living with me at the time and he was getting up to get ready for work.

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And I told him that they were found and that they were murdered and he just looked at me,

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turned around and got in the shower, got dressed and he went to work.

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Yeah.

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So my Sunday was when they were kind of missing.

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I was at the gym the morning of.

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And I was reaching out to Jasmine, I had borrowed her just a couple of dollars the night before.

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And I was reaching out to her saying, Hey, can you pay me back now?

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Whatever.

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She was a server.

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So she made cash tips and she was going to pay me back the next day.

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And she wasn't responding.

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And I was like, you know, whatever.

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She's probably sleeping.

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She'll get back to me.

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So I went to the gym and I'm kind of hanging out.

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And then I get a call from my grandpa, your dad, obviously.

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And he had said, this is about, I don't know, hour, hour and a half into my workout.

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He had said that, Hey, like, you know, your brother and sister are missing.

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You should, you should go home and be with your mom.

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Just kind of comfort her in that time.

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So I was like, okay, I went home and then didn't really wrap my head around it.

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There was nothing.

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I didn't really think anything of it at the time.

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I didn't believe it at the time.

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So I was kind of thinking, it's not what it is.

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And then that Monday morning when it was confirmed, we had all been, I mean, after, after so long,

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I think that Sunday evening, actually, junior had a football game and his mom never came

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home and that's totally unlike her to make him miss a sporting event or some type of

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a school event or anything.

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So when we all, me and my mom showed up at the field for a football game and junior wasn't

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there.

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That's when we called him and was like, you know, where's your mom?

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And he was saying that she never came home and whatever.

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So yeah, then that Monday, I just didn't believe it.

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I was in disbelief.

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So I don't know really what was going through my head, but I know you had told me that and

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I drove, it was about a 30, 40 minute drive to work.

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And when I got to work was when I finally started balling, crying, I couldn't control

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it.

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So I went into my manager and I told him, I said, Hey man, my brother and sister were

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just murdered and I'd like to go home.

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I don't, I don't know if I can do it today.

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And he looked at me almost like as if I was joking.

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And then he saw that I was uncontrollably crying.

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And then he was like super consoling and was like, yeah, go take as much time as you need.

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Well, I only took that day and then went back the next day.

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But yeah, that was, that was my Monday.

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So yeah, all of it was just really unbelievable.

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Like surreal still is to me, although less intense now, which brings me to our topic about

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grief and grieving.

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Do you differentiate grief from grieving?

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I suppose I never really had to look at it until this event in my life.

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A grief I suppose now I've looked at as grief is something you can look back on and you

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can still feel those emotions in your, you can just feel that, that sorrow kind of despair

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lost feeling.

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And you don't really know how to describe it.

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To me, that's grief.

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It's like you're just kind of lost in limbo.

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Grieving is when you come to grips with it and you're, you're kind of trying to get past

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that, but you're still hurting, obviously.

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And so that's grieving to me is understanding what it is you're not lost anymore, although

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it is still hard in a dark road that you're going on.

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But that's kind of my idea.

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I'm impressed because according to Dr. Mary Frances O'Connor, an associate professor

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of clinical psychology and psychiatry at the University of Arizona, grief and grieving

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are two distinct experiences.

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Dr. O'Connor, who has spent most of her career studying grief and its effects on our brain,

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also has a book called The Grieving Brain, The Surprising Science of How We Learn from

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Love and Loss, and did a podcast called Speaking of Psychology.

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She defines grief as an intense feeling that completely overwhelms you while grieving, which

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will never go away, is still the feeling of loss, but it is now a familiar feeling.

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And we've learned how to comfort ourselves.

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Dr. O'Connor also clarified that even though the feelings haven't changed, our relationship

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to those feelings have changed.

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So you kind of hit it like, you're not a doctor.

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And that that's exactly how she defines it.

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I found her explanation of grief versus grieving to make a lot of sense after thinking about

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it a bit.

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If I were to compare how I manage my feelings today to how I managed them two years ago,

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huge difference.

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Two years ago, I had to pull over when I was driving because I was crying so hard.

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And I felt it in my body too.

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Like my whole body just felt different.

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And I said in the trailer to this podcast that these intense emotions that were brought

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to my front step were emotions I couldn't put words to.

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And that's grief versus the grieving.

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Now I if I have my moments, obviously, but I will call somebody like when I called you

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last week, or I'll call a friend, I journal, I'll listen to music, I meditate, I allow

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myself to feel those feelings.

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Do you notice a difference in like how you were, how you managed it two years ago or

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a year ago even compared to how you do that now?

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Yeah, so I just don't think I had the mental strength to deal with it a few years ago.

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I, you know, obviously just lost your mom, my grandmother, my dad, and then my brother

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and sister all within three months of each other, three, four months.

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So that was a big hit to me for me.

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I always was the type to bottle my emotions in, but that is something that you really

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can't bottle in.

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So for my, I was drinking a lot and doing a lot of just harmful things to myself.

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And it doesn't quite pay.

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I mean, you can go throughout the entire day.

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I mean, I went throughout the entire day at work.

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Pete, you would have never guessed that I had just been a victim of my brother's and

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sister's homicide because I would still kind of be a happy go lucky kind of outgoing guy.

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And then when I get home, I mean, I couldn't even get in my car for five minutes without

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breaking down crying.

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You get home and you just want to drown those feelings out.

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Now I'm still not the greatest at talking, but I do have some help.

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And so I'm a little bit better at exploring my feelings, but it's still like, yeah, I'm

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not, I'm not experienced or well versed in that mental field just yet.

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I'm still learning.

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So it's still hard for me, but I do notice a difference.

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Yeah.

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And I don't think grief managing it has anything to do with your mental strength because I

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think you're a very strong person.

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I just, it's just, it's new.

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It's not anything we've ever been exposed to before.

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The other thing that Dr O'Connor also said, and it really resonated with me as she talked

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about depression and grief, and she said they're not the same thing.

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So to her, depression is global, which means that it, everything depresses that person.

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They might have guilt feelings about maybe not finishing college or feel like they should

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be further along in their life than they are or a relationship ended and they feel it's

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all their fault and they can't get past the past.

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Whereas grief is just the sadness and the emotions for that lost loved one.

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And I bring this up because not so long ago, few, few months, I was talking to somebody

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called somebody cause I was feeling awful and I started sharing my feelings with him and

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I asked him, do you think I'm depressed?

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I reached out to him because I know that he has suffered from depression his entire life.

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I've never suffered from depression.

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So I didn't know what it felt like.

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And so as I'm describing these feelings, he's like, Oh yeah, you're depressed, but I didn't

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agree.

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I mean, I was like, I'm just sad.

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I miss my mom.

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I miss my kids.

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I don't think that's depressed.

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I think I am sad.

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What are your thoughts on that?

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Yeah, actually, after this whole instance, you know, Matt had battled depression a little

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bit.

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Jasmine ever so slightly.

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I had no understanding of depression before this event.

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I had no empathy towards it even sometimes and I've kind of kicked myself for that after

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this event because it's real.

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It's real and it can be detrimental.

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I now know very well what depression is.

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Depression is sometimes you wake up and you feel like you had just ran a marathon when

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you got 10 hours of sleep at night.

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Sometimes you get off work and you had a great day and you immediately start bawling crying

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and you don't know what it is.

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I mean, depression is like just a cloud over you that can start raining at any given moment

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and you live with it.

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And I had no understanding of that before and I do now.

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So I do, yeah, I mean, I battle with it ever so slightly.

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I did think the same way that I thought, I'm just sad.

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It's just in emotion, it'll pass and life goes on, but depression doesn't really work

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like that.

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It stays.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Well, for me, defining grief versus grieving and depression, that helped me because now

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I don't need to feel like I'm grieving wrong if I'm not having these intense day stopping

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emotions still.

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Some of our listeners might feel like that or feel like their grieving is wrong or feel

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guilty because you're having more good days than you are bad, but there is no right way

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to grieve.

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But maybe by separating grief from grieving, we can take another step towards healing and

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by healing, I mean being kind to ourselves.

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Yeah, I totally agree with that.

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Being kind to yourself should not be underestimated.

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It mentally, physically, emotionally, all of those things.

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You have to take a big look at yourself and give yourself a break sometimes.

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You have to give yourself that time to just cry, just feel those emotions.

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Then you have to give yourself that strength to know that you're going to keep going and

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you, you know, whatever it may be, friends, family, loved ones, kids, it doesn't matter,

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you've got to find that thing that keeps you going that you need to be strong for.

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It's hard.

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It's not easy, but you can do it.

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Right.

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Right.

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Well, that is all there is time for today.

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Thank you so much for joining us as we dove a little bit deeper into the subject of grieving.

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We hope that our discussion provided our listeners with support as you journey through this grief

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and that you've gotten some insight from this next week.

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We will talk about supporting those who are dealing with loss.

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Sometimes those supporters don't really know what to say and we want to help with that.

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You can find all our source material in show notes and I will include a link to Dr. O'Connor's

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book for those interested in purchasing it.

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I do not get any residuals.

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Should you decide to buy anything?

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I just really like her work and believe many of you might benefit from her book.

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Also, if you are struggling with grief and need additional support, we encourage you

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to reach out to a licensed therapist or counselor.

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We have included some local links to resources in our show notes.

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Please be sure to hit subscribe and like and we look forward to meeting next week.