How's it going, everybody?
Hey!
It's been a while.
Sorry about that.
That's okay.
We've been running all over the place, and you have too.
Yes, you a little bit more than me, though.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
It's been crazy.
So the church that I work for does sabbaticals, which I got to admit, my father was a pastor,
and I was like, I don't remember him ever taking a sabbatical, but I do remember him
going to conferences and stuff like that.
Maybe it's something that I just forgot.
So I asked him, like, hey, when you did a sabbatical, how did that go?
What did you make sure and do, or how did you approach it?
And he looked at me squealing, and I think I never had a sabbatical.
So over 40 years of—close to 50 years of ministry total, or being a paid minister total,
and never had a sabbatical.
That's crazy.
Yeah, it is a blessing.
It is something that I feel like a lot of churches and ministries are trying to get
back to, and understanding that people are on call in a different way than ever they
have been before, which I got to see that a little bit.
My father was a pastor, or I remember my father being a pastor, when cell phones, or mobile
phones—I won't even call them cell phones—mobile phones first started making their appearance.
And the idea that Dad was reachable all the time just—I mean, it was crazy.
I do remember when we used to have dinner, and we would turn the ringer off on the phone
because we were having dinner together.
That doesn't happen anymore.
No, there's always a ringer on, or somebody's vibrating.
Anyway, so it's kind of a different thing, and I'm grateful for it.
I think that other industries should look at sabbaticals as a benefit.
Absolutely.
Yeah, it's a way to keep your people going and not burning out.
Our current model is that during your fifth year—so like after four years, during your
fifth year, you take a sabbatical, and it's a different number of weeks based on different
amounts of responsibility and stuff like that, but you take a sabbatical during your fifth
year.
And so it's kind of weird because you're always counting by five, but it's not every four
years and then you get a sabbatical.
It's every five years, but it's during the fifth year.
So it's strange, kind of the way that you have to do some limbo there.
All the math people are like, that's not weird.
Don't make it weird.
Like, it's fine, but there's a bunch of non-math people and they're like, I don't even know
how I would do that.
That seems like magic talk.
So do you have to take it before the fifth year is technically up?
That's what you're supposed to do.
Paul didn't take his first sabbatical until his eighth or ninth year, and then he had
one coming up.
I think he's supposed to take one this year to kind of make up for how far behind he is.
But he's been here for over 10 years.
So that's not good.
You don't want to stack them like that.
I don't think that's how everybody should work.
The point is to take breaks earlier so that you don't burn out.
And it helps you refocus what you're doing and why you're doing it.
And it helps, especially if there's something that you're wanting to learn.
You know how continuing.
So there's re-upping certifications.
That is a common thing amongst a bunch of different careers and stuff like that.
And re-upping certifications can be difficult while you're working, but you still kind of
get it done.
That kind of thing can be.
You can use your sabbatical for things like that.
But it's more like there's this new thing that you want to figure out or this new thing
that is going to take like you've got to really turn your brain around for it.
A lot of that is really helpful.
I've seen pastors use it to write books, which I feel like you would need a lot more time
than what we even give for that.
But some people are just gifted that way.
Anyway, there's a bunch of different ways to do it.
But I feel like sabbaticals, kind of taking a break from your normal schedule at work,
your normal responsibilities at work, and either resting because it's just been hectic.
That's what mine was.
Mine was a lot of rest.
I was kind of recounting since my last sabbatical in 2019, everything that has happened.
Can we just stop there for a minute?
Like, oh my gosh, like the entire world has changed and especially what we do.
So yeah, it a lot like 2001.
Now it feels like, I guess, definitely 2000 was where I'm trying to go with this.
2019 feels like the last year before the world went mad.
Yeah.
And I was having like, that's when my voice stuff started was in 2019.
So things were starting to change in 2019.
But I wasn't really sure what was going to happen there.
I remember coming back from my sabbatical in 2019 and being like, yeah, no, I feel good
about being a worship pastor and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And within a year, I was like, what is even going on?
Yeah.
And there's so much to do.
And oh my gosh, my voice isn't going to make it.
Like anyway, it was a, that was a tough 12 months, summer of 2019 to summer of 2020.
And then it just kind of never got back on the rails after that.
It's kind of what it feels like.
Anyway, all that to say mine was primarily focused on rest, primarily focused on recapturing
what the goals are, what the, what are they keeping the main thing, the main thing, the
main thing, the main thing.
And I've been listening to a lot of Jamie Winship.
Those of you that don't know Jamie Winship, he's got a really cool story in general, but
he talks a lot about being founded in having your identity based in the truth instead of
other things.
And I think, I think that's relatable to a lot of people no matter what, but absolutely
super, super relatable to people in the church, I think on a regular basis, we're kind of
having to ask that question anyway.
Okay, so then I guess asking, was there one particular thing that you were studying in
this, kind of like you were saying a lot of time you take sabbatical to focus on something
in particular, was there one thing or was this literally just take time, rest, enjoy
time with family and regroup?
Yeah, my instructions from my bosses were make sure like you, your only like goal that
you're coming back to us with is rest.
So like that was primary.
But what I was focused on was identity stuff was reading books that were related to anxiety
and not, you know, letting worry and anxiety be the controller and not getting off with,
again, another concept that we've heard over and over again, but Jamie Winship has talked
about it as well is the difference between a scarcity mindset and an abundance mindset.
And how if we live in a scarcity mindset, which like everyone does, I'm getting super
se on these sibilances.
Sorry about that.
But if you if you live in a scarcity mindset, if your if your brain is in that worldview,
then then really, you've got to protect what you have.
And keep trying to like your every problem that you face is because you don't have enough
of one thing or another.
And so you got to you got to fight for that.
And, you know, take somebody out for that really, because there's not enough for everybody.
So I've got to make sure that I live and you die.
I mean, you know, like, yes, to take it to its, you know, logical ends or whatever, we
don't we don't talk like that in civilized world, but we're all kind of thinking that
like if if if you win, I lose.
And an abundance mindset is there's enough there is enough for everyone in all of these
different situations.
And we have to figure out how to live with that mentality and the like, oh, no, like,
it really like we have enough oxygen to breathe, everybody is breathing and we're fine.
It's not every time you take a breath, I am struggling now to breathe, to breathe.
Like, no, that's not that's not the case.
So we've got to kind of come back from that and stop trying to accumulate so much in order
for us to be safe.
I think that's yes, there's there's a lot more to it.
But like anxiety kind of is fed by that scarcity mindset.
Yeah.
Anyway.
OK, thanks for sharing.
Appreciate it.
I'm glad you got the time off.
That's that's awesome.
To share a little bit of my time off, we had our 20th wedding anniversary, 20th wedding
anniversary.
Yeah, I hear there it is.
No, I don't know what any of these are.
Don't worry, folks, we'll fix it in post.
Yeah, there it is.
So yeah, it's crazy to think that Michelle and I have been married for 20 years.
Nice.
Such a crazy thing because it feels like it just all kicked off.
So yeah, got to celebrate that and my birthday on the cruise on the cruise.
Yeah.
So for those who haven't been on a cruise, you think you're laying low.
They know it's your birthday.
They know it's your birthday and they will find you.
I'm sure that's exactly what you were going for, man.
No, no, no, no, no, no.
We're having nice private dinner, you know, just good time and thinking it's over.
And I could see the look in my wife's eyes of oh, no, no.
And she's and she just barely gets it out.
She's like, I didn't do it.
And sure enough, that's a wife that knows you.
Yeah.
Here comes these three lovely ladies with my dessert with a single candle in it.
And start singing Happy Birthday.
I was like, oh, but they didn't put you on a saddle or make you wear a sombrero.
No, they didn't.
Okay.
That's nice.
So none of that.
But did anybody jump out of the cake?
That would have been a little person.
So but that was good to take that time off.
I know we kind of talked a little bit before this of what it how refreshing it is.
If you can do this when you take time off to just turn off the phone, disconnect from
technology, that was that was really, really sweet.
If anybody else can do that, I highly encourage it.
Because then you come back and then your phone turns back on and you're like, oh, yeah, there's
the rest of the world out there.
Yeah.
So but it was good.
I got fussed out a few times over my break for checking emails and stuff like that.
And I was like, I wasn't really responding to emails.
I was just making sure there wasn't anything I was going to be blindsided by whenever I
got back to work.
Because it's I mean, it's a real thing.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
You come back and you see that number of unread messages into when you were just talking about
anxiety, some of that starts to creep in and you're like, why are there so many emails?
So very cool.
What are you drinking?
I have a new Trappist beer Rochefort number 10.
It is a Belgian ale, supporting the people.
That's right.
We need the monks.
Yes.
Give the monks the money said I get the beer and they get to help all the people.
I am once again drinking a Shiner Bach.
They're not monks, but they are doing God's work.
They are doing God's work.
We do appreciate them.
Yes.
So, you know, I mean, you had to bring a bottle opener and everything for that.
That is legit.
I confirmed it's not a twist top.
Nice.
Cheers.
Tink.
Yeah, right.
Tink.
Oh, bless it.
Okay, so Shiner has I like their like there's this is their normal one.
They've got the black Shiner.
That's really good.
Yeah.
And then they've got a new I don't know if it's new.
It's the first time I've had it but it's that it's like a Mexican beer.
I forget what they call it though.
It's pretty good with lime, I guess or I know they've got one that's sea salt and lime.
Okay.
And that one's kind of like if you're if you're if you just get done mowing your lawn, that's
a good one for that.
Okay.
But this is like a like more like a dose keys more like a okay, not a corona.
But you know, okay.
Maybe the especially I've never had all the coronas that they have.
So I do have an honorable mention for a beer.
Yes.
When we were in Belize, okay, we stopped and I tried the now it's probably like Foster's
in Australia, but they claim that this was the beer of the Belize people.
And so I had to have some.
It was remarkably smooth, very little aftertaste that some beers have.
Yeah.
It was more of a I guess almost like a blonde, which I'm not normally a fan of myself.
I like my dark beers.
But this was really, really good.
Like a blonde that has flavor though.
Yes, because some blondes like okay, so there's there's a there's a Dominican Republic beer.
Okay, that I've been told about it's called El Presidente or something like that.
It's the president's beer.
Okay, right.
It is regulated by the government.
Wow, in terms of like there's rules.
The rule is it has to be served at a certain temperature.
So like all the Presidente is in the country, like their refrigerators have to have the
control the thermostat like visible on them.
So you make sure that they're but it's really cold.
I know one advice chips, you know why they got to have it really cold because when something's
really cold, you can't really taste it as much.
Maybe that's why Nati light tastes so good when it's coming out of a frozen cake.
That's exactly why Nati light tastes good.
That's the only reason Nati light would ever taste good.
Yes.
Golly.
Yes.
Anyway, well, I guess the end of that story and why I prefaced it with maybe it's kind
of like fosters for Australians is you get done and you realize that the beer is actually
being produced and bottled by the local Coca Cola company in Belize.
Nice.
Well done.
So I probably got tricked into drinking the beer that they love to sell to tourists, whatever,
but you got to try it.
It's not like you know, yeah, it was great.
I enjoyed it.
What was funny was the beer that was everywhere in Jamaica when Laurie and I went to Jamaica
was PBR.
And you're like, wait a minute.
PBR and Red Stripe.
I mean Red Stripe makes sense.
Red Stripe I would expect.
But PBR was everywhere.
I was like, what is going on?
Pat's blue ribbon.
Anyway.
Yep.
Okay.
So real quick, we're going to what we're mainly going to talk about is the I mean, should
we just talk about the routers and switches and stuff?
Because I feel like we spend too much time in any other direction and we're going to
be.
I actually I want to hear what you have to say because we teased it.
We did tease it.
So what I have in my hands that Chris let me borrow because he is a magnanimous friend
is the XDM 100 made by Road.
And I got to say, we're not using it right now.
We're running into a Roadcaster Pro 2.
But I really think so.
One friend of mine was talking about how, you know, everybody tries to get into the
like the space.
Yes.
When a new market emerges, whenever something becomes more popular, podcasting and things
like that, not things like that podcasting and streaming from your home and things like
that have become way more of a thing than they used to be.
I think we all agree.
It twitch twitches everywhere.
That's not news like that.
That is what it is.
And because of that, there's a market that's higher like the, you know, profits from it
are way higher than they used to be.
This didn't used to nobody cared about this.
So there wasn't any money going into it.
What happens is you get some half hearted efforts from people, right?
You get somebody who's never made a microphone now making a microphone.
You get somebody who's never made an audio interface trying to make an audio interface.
Yes.
So what you have to be careful of is that inside of that, you may have somebody who's
made fantastic.
This will just be a nameless entity that nobody knows or could figure out.
A nameless entity makes fantastic microphones, but they've never really been in the audio
interface game.
And so they take one of their microphones and they're like, okay, well, we know how
capsules work and we know the basics of ADDA.
Let's just put something together where a microphone has the ability to go digital,
right?
And you have USB microphones.
Yes.
And you're like, oh, well, that makes sense.
You don't have to go into a separate mixer or anything like that.
And you can even work with some effects and things like that, but they've never really
done any of that either.
And so you get kind of this like, I mean, it works.
It's great.
Like we can make it sound good type thing.
And then you've got Rode.
And Rode made microphones for a long time.
Yes, they have.
And they've made some really good microphones.
Yes.
They've made some microphones that aren't great.
I will like, you know, there have been some budget microphones even over the past five
years that Rode has made that have been like, are we really like what?
I think we stepped over the line and not useful.
But they've always had some high end microphones.
So it's not like they don't know what they're doing.
And then they went this direction of making audio interfaces and those audio interfaces
interacting with their microphones.
And they were like, hey, we've got kind of a thing here where we can say like, there's
some presets involved, like we've got like Apex, the Aural Exciter and Big Bottom and
things that are starting to be like recognized as, oh, these are normal things to have.
And you actually have some brand recognition there inside of that as well.
And what they did with the XDM series or XD series, I guess, because they've got their
XM series.
I don't know how to say that because they've got the XDM and they've got the XCM.
XCM, yes.
So XM series, which is weird because there's a letter in between.
But the XDM100 is their dynamic microphone and the XCM is their condenser microphone.
That is correct.
Based on other microphones that they've had.
Yes.
It's not like first attempt at either one of these capsules or types of microphones.
And the XDM then has an audio interface built into it.
But they went a step further and made a program called UniFi, which they were messing around
with.
Yes.
And I'm going to say messing around with because it's not like it wasn't there before, but
it's like it wasn't ready for prime time.
No.
Right.
And what they did is they said, okay, so we've got all of these pieces now.
And I feel like they did this pretty quietly because I didn't see it coming.
And even when it was announced, I was like, that's no big deal.
It's going to be like everything else.
What made it different is they've done each of these well individually.
Yes.
And when you put them together, I'm not trying to make you uncomfortable here, Chris.
I know I love you and I think you know that I love you.
Yes, I do.
But I'm going to use a word that you're not going to like because of the connotation with
it.
You're going to use the E word.
I'm going to use the E word.
They made an ecosystem that each of these things can work independently with other things.
Yes.
And maybe that's how the ecosystem doesn't work or, you know, not doesn't work, but that
maybe the other company that we're referring to with the word ecosystem breaks down.
Yes.
But I like it because each of these things by themselves were working well.
And then you put them together and they turn into a pretty fantastic combination.
They did.
And so I'm saying if you've got an XDM 100 or the XCM, if you've got some ways of making
the room around you not sound horrible.
Yes.
And you've got the UniFi system, which now does work on Mac.
So just in case somebody's out there going, but I have a Mac.
No, it works with Mac now.
That's what I've been trying it on is a Mac.
You I feel like you're set.
I agree.
You can have like I was looking at USB hubs and USB C hubs.
And honestly, like this is something that I expected to see more of than there are.
I don't know if you agree with that, but like their USB C hubs and they just have a whole
bunch of different types of inputs because we all need all the pro inputs and we don't
have the pro inputs because all we have is USB C.
Yes, I would say that they're more they're less of a USB hub and more of a port replicator
port replicator.
There you go.
What I'm talking about though, are USB C hubs.
Okay.
And there are less of those than I would have imagined.
That's true.
Belkin though makes a four port 3.2 USB C 3.2 Gen 2 hub.
So you can plug it into your computer and have four USB C's coming in.
One of those can be your power if you want it to, but hopefully you have another USB
C that you can use for power.
Correct.
And then you've got four USB C's.
So you could have four of these road casters.
Now I haven't actually tried this.
So now I'm thinking like make sure that the power out is what you need it to be.
I'm not sure what the power consumption of this thing is.
Anyway, sorry that I should have talked about that or researched that before I started talking
here.
But I think that that would work.
If not in the future, hopefully this will be something that we can do because it seems
like or what I know is that they made road made unify in such a way that I was like,
oh, that's kind of cute that they put a headphone jack on the microphone and it's got its own
volume so you can turn up your headphone monitor.
And I was like, that's cute.
You can hear yourself.
Oh, it can be an output from your computer.
Oh, unify can mix it independently for every person.
So it sees when you plug an XDM or an XCM into your computer, it sees not only the microphone
input, but it sees the output of the headphones.
And now you've got some like professional grade like we're going to turn this thing
into a legit.
I'm kind of looking here at this road caster pro like I'm not sure why I'd spend that money
anymore.
I know why you spend that money.
I'm not.
It's not.
That's a joke.
But at the same time, it is interesting to me because on this XDM here, they make the
oh, shoot, which one is it that they make that has USB-C and XLR?
I know, sure just did it with their SM7B.
Yes, yes, they did.
But anyway, you you could plug one of these XDMs now or XCMs into the road caster pro.
You can.
Yes.
I guess technically you could do two if you don't have a line running for one of the USB-C
for your computer, computer or recording.
But anyway, I don't know why you would do that.
But you can't like this doesn't have an XLR on it.
No, it does not.
You'd have to get the broadcaster for that, which is what this is based on.
Pro caster.
Thank you.
Broadcaster is still a condenser.
Broadcaster is a condenser.
Yeah, pro caster is the dynamic.
Yeah.
Anyway, I'm just saying I'm a big fan of what we have in this for guys like you and me that
the huge majority of the time we're recording two people, actually the huge majority of
the time we're recording one person ourselves.
And then if we need it, we've probably got two people.
You know, you're you're at 150 for this guy.
125.
I got it.
I bought it when it was still on sale.
Let me see what the current price is real quick.
I was thinking it was in the 200 to 220 range.
But if you'd like.
I may need to buy another.
Potentially.
I'm just saying.
Well, that I also need to make sure that maybe I didn't pay too much because I see it right
now on Amazon for one hundred and sixty eight dollars.
I think probably we're going to see a version two of this pretty quick.
Oh, I think so.
I agree.
And not for any reason that because not it's not for the reason that I think that there's
something wrong with this.
I really like it.
I like the way it looks.
I like that they ship with the pop filter.
It's got an internal pop filter.
That's not great, but they've got an external pop filter that works fabulous.
And because they know that this is why you're buying this, they shipped with the filter.
Correct.
Because I hate it when companies do that.
They're like, you're going to buy one.
But like on the SM7B, it comes with two different ones because they're like, why are we?
No, this is there's a reason it's this expensive.
We're going to give you what you need in order to succeed with this tool that we've given
you.
Anyway, all of that to say it also comes with this great isolator, which I put on a really,
really low budget tripod because I was traveling with it.
Took it all the way up to Wyoming with me.
Oh, wow.
And the adapter that I put on there is stuck.
So I'm going to have to put some pliers on it and no problem, rip that off.
But this guy is legit.
The shock mount.
Shock mount.
Thank you.
I was like, isolator, isolator, noise isolator, isolator, shock mount.
That's the word that I'm looking for.
The shock mount that it comes with as well is very high quality and does a great job.
And I did overpay.
I paid 2.19.
Sorry, man.
I think that's what happens in a couple of months.
Stuff happens.
But it's fantastic.
I think it's worth 2.19.
I think it's worth 2.50.
It has gone down in price and I would recommend it.
And we are by no means getting paid for anything.
No, no, no, no, no, no.
This is our opinion because we spend our money and we can speak freely.
I think what really stood out for me on this is they took the Procaster and they looked
at the Podcaster, which was the first attempt that has...
The Podmic.
Well, no, even before that.
Oh, the first attempt.
It looks just like a Procaster, but it's all white.
Yeah.
And it has the old school USB-B, look like you're hooking up a printer.
And so that mic was a total failure.
The Procaster was a success, but it's an XLR mic.
And they took basically those two and learned and like, we can put this together.
I think they learned with the Podmic.
They absolutely did.
I think the Podmic had huge success.
It did.
And part of that was the price range of it.
Yes.
$99, can't beat it.
Like, oh, we get a pretty good read here on what people are actually interested in.
And they saw, I think with the Podmic, what they could do with it using their software
and their stuff.
Correct.
And so the other thing that they did with this mic is they literally took the preamp
out of the Roadcaster and put it in that microphone.
And that's what gives it all that amazing capability and power.
I mean, that little chip.
So all that to say to follow back to what you said, several years ago, if I would have
been looking at buying that versus buying a Roadcaster and some other microphone, I
would have just bought the XTM.
I don't know why you wouldn't right now.
Yeah.
But I have both.
So I can totally use this on my Roadcaster, hook it up via the type C right in.
Or just always have it with you.
Correct.
Take it with you.
This thing in my bag all the time.
Now it's a heavy little bugger, but you kind of want it to be heavy.
I get real nervous with microphones that are light because there's sensitive things inside
of it that I don't want to be dislodged.
But it's very nice.
Way to go, Australia.
We really appreciate you, Road.
Still no downloads, Australia.
Come on.
We're doing everything we can.
I even got your mic.
Come on.
So that's my, you wanted my opinion.
It took me longer to get it to you than I wanted.
That's okay.
This is why I purposely didn't tell you my thoughts because I wanted to hear your honest
opinion.
I guess I can say everything that I just said because I listened to it after recording with
it just to myself.
Did a couple just phone calls with it type thing and it sounds amazing.
It does.
And you know, it's part of me, it's like, how much of that is because of everything
else that they do well?
And there's part of me that's like, I don't care.
It sounds good.
It does.
Sounds really good.
It's a really good noise floor and all that.
So anyway, well, I recommend it.
I recommend it for a USB based mic.
Go for it.
Hey, we got a little bit of time to jump into our next topic of conversation.
Yep.
Well, we'll see what we can get through.
There's definitely some stuff here that we don't have to go quite as deep.
Sure.
We can next time though.
Yeah, absolutely.
Or I'll have this in the show notes as well.
Maybe this does turn into a two parter.
So I mean, if we don't mind it turning into a two parter, then we'll just go right on
through it and we'll just we'll pick a point to stop and come back.
Yeah, we'll see.
So all right.
So we're shifting gears.
No pun intended.
Got out of the A. Now we're getting back into the I.
Yes.
So let's talk about routers and switches and how they work and the OSI model.
What are you even talking about, Chris?
Yes.
Why isn't everything a router?
Seems like it these days.
At least that's what they call it.
Oh my gosh.
So let's start with OSI.
This may crank the geek knob for some of you.
If you're not into this, maybe come back for next show when we're actually talking about
the hardware.
Yeah, I will tell you, I started looking at it because I was like, I don't like OSI is
not something that I'm very familiar with.
I'm more familiar with the TCP IP.
Yes.
Model.
Yeah.
So we're going to that's in the show notes as well.
It is.
Yes.
And it took me a second to realize we're talking about the same thing.
Essentially.
Yes.
Yeah.
So all right.
So let's go.
What is the OSI?
What are you talking about?
Yes.
So it's a framework that enables network based hardware to talk between vendors.
If you go far enough back when you and I were little kids and networking was a extremely
new phenomenon, you had to make sure everything you bought came from the same manufacturer,
because they did not talk to other manufacturers because they did their own thing.
Right.
They technically were ethernet or token ring, depending upon what you were doing at the
time, if you liked IBM.
But as far as vendor to vendor, sometimes it works, sometimes it didn't.
And you'd bang your head against the wall and there's really nothing you could do about
it.
Yeah.
If you're like, if you're still thinking like, what are they talking about?
Hopefully, if you've made it this far in the show, like you at least know what a driver
is.
I hope so.
And if imagine there is no driver, it's either already in your computer.
Yeah.
Or you don't get to use the piece of hardware.
Piece of hardware.
Yeah.
So that's that was the beauty of this was a way to bring all this equipment together
and to make sure that one vendor talks to another vendor.
Now with that being said, you do occasionally find some stuff that doesn't work quite the
way you intended that happened within the last.
When did we get those HP switches?
2007.
So I love that you just like in order to come up with this, like an example of this just
said, when did we get those AP switches or HP switches?
Like thank you.
Well, it was a as I was going through this, it just, you know, it came up, you know, so
we were trying to get HP switches to talk to Cisco switches and we were trying to do
trunks.
Right.
So switch to switch communication, which allows multiple virtual networks to pass over a cable.
And what we learned really quickly is that those AP switches and those Cisco switches,
they didn't like each other and they were a bugger to get to work.
And so we were like, well, we're going Cisco anyway.
So HP was out, Cisco was in, and once we did Cisco to Cisco, it was great.
They're like, oh no, we took, we know what we're talking about.
Yes.
Yep.
So that shouldn't have been a thing in 2007 considering that this came out in the eighties,
I'm sorry, seventies for the original piece of it.
But it did.
And it still happens.
Yeah.
I had a incident this morning when I'm going too far in the weeds.
My brother has a brand new TV, would not talk to the router supplied by central link.
We're talking brand new hardware and still just in talking.
All right.
So coming back, getting off the squirrel chase.
Sorry.
So you've got a framework, a language, a, I mean, I don't know what other, like they're,
I'm trying to think of words that are going to help you think of like the way that these
things talk to each other in a way that is going to make sense to both of them.
Yes.
It's a manual, if you will.
A manual.
So there you go.
So OSI.
OSI, the open systems interconnection.
Which totally makes sense.
Oh, of course.
Of course.
Open.
Yes.
So they basically came up with the standard.
The late seventies was published in 84 ISO.
So now you see the letters just swapped.
Wait a minute.
Yes.
ISO 7498 and the most current version.
And here's some additional letters.
The ISO slash IEC 7498 dash one from 1994.
So no major change since 1994 when we were in high school.
That's rough.
Yes.
And it establishes.
I mean, it's good.
I mean, the amazing thing is it's still working.
The fact that it's still working, I guess, means they thought of most things.
Yes.
And they've had sufficient buy-in that there was no need to come back and force people
to get back into this because they realize everything's got to work.
So it essentially it created a seven layer model.
You briefly mentioned TCP IP will kind of go over how those are similar.
And there is also one other that I did not include in here, but it's very similar to
TCP IP.
In fact, I think the structure.
There may be one change between TCP IP and DOD, but essentially it achieves the same
thing just with fewer layers called out.
So let's kind of let's dig in.
So you've got seven layers.
The very first layer that we'll start with is the physical layer.
That may just that name alone may make people think, oh, some type of physical device.
And that's that's correct to some degree.
So it basically has to do around the medium or the cabling, if you will.
It's been when you say medium, you mean like what it's being transferred over.
Correct.
So you go far enough back.
It was coax.
And then you've that's one kind of copper.
It's one kind of copper.
Yes, it is.
With B and C connections.
Yes.
And you had to had had to have a Terminator at the end of the chain.
Yep.
If you don't have it, all kinds of badness.
So some people may know the Terminator reference, not the movie.
I was like, I hope they do.
I would be back.
It's a different.
Yes.
Different term from DMX lighting.
Yes.
DMX lighting.
Yes.
Thank you, AVL.
Yes.
And the other that some people may know, again, depending on the age of our listeners is
scuzzy drives.
Scuzzy drives.
You had to have a Terminator on your scuzzy.
Hold on.
I'm going to feel old for a minute.
Yeah.
Okay.
All right.
We're back.
Yeah.
So coax into copper, eventually into fiber, fiber.
Another piece that can that exists here as well would be your network card that is going
to fall into this layer, layer one or physical layer.
So this basically we're not going to go into too much more detail if you want to read this
framework, knock yourself out.
Right.
But essentially this is layer one physical layer.
It basically describes everything that has to occur at this layer for one device to talk
to another device.
Right.
If I plug my computer into your computer over a network drive or over a network cable.
Sorry.
Yes.
That made it weird.
Network cable.
It's a beer.
Sure.
All right.
Yeah.
Okay.
Layer two.
This is where it starts to get a little interesting.
Layer two is a data link layer.
I may read this one a little more than I did the other.
So the data link layer refers to technologies used to connect two machines across a network,
not the physical.
It uses the physical cable, but not specifically referring to that.
Where the physical layer already exists.
So in your example, I have a network cable plugged into my computer, plugged into your
computer that establishes that layer one physical connection.
Now layer two can take advantage of that to start some communication.
So it manages what are referred to as data frames, which is the data at that layer, which
basically says our digital signals encapsulated into data packets.
We're getting nerdy.
Well this is great because I think there are some people listening that have heard the
word packets and don't know what that is.
Correct.
Because they don't know what bits and bytes are.
Bits and bytes and packets and everything else.
Anyway, keep going.
So you get flow control and error control of data are some of the key focuses at this
layer.
Ethernet is an example of a standard at this level.
Media link layer is often split into two sub layers.
Media access control, the Mac ID of your device.
Every device has a unique Mac ID.
Yeah.
If you didn't know that, it's great.
If you didn't, you can find it actually pretty quickly.
Yes.
The these days you can technically spoofs and Mac.
So you could have two devices with the same Mac, but coming from the manufacturer, it's
going to be 100% unique.
And then the other is the logical link control layer.
So that's layer two.
The logical link control layer.
Please don't make me try to run.
Never mind.
It's fine.
It's not.
It's not the LLC you're thinking of.
No it's not the LLC that you're working for.
That is for sure.
Okay.
So we move up to layer three network layer.
This is where some people are going to be a little more familiar.
So layer two communication is happening via Mac address.
I need to send from this Mac address to this Mac address.
Okay.
I have them.
Here we go.
Right.
When we get to layer three packets, it's now that packet is being encapsulated with the
at the network layer with IP.
Because even though every device has a different IP or different, sorry, excuse me.
Even though every device has a different Mac address.
Yes.
It is too confusing to try to find that Mac address with no other idea of where it could
be because the network is too big.
Correct.
Yeah.
At that layer you can't carve things up.
Right.
Like you can here at the network layer.
So the network layer works around IP.
Important.
Yes.
Very important.
Think of an IP address is basically your street address to your home.
It's unique to you.
So that's what's happening here.
You, this is where you're going to have IPv4 and I'm going to say it.
I'm going to sound like one of those people.
IPv6.
I promise it's coming.
It is coming.
I did.
I'm with you.
It's coming.
Yes.
And we're getting a little bit crazy with, if you don't know what IPv6 is, I mean, imagine
IP addresses with a few more.
A few more.
Yeah.
Hocktets if you will.
Hocktets.
Yeah.
So everything here is based around IP address.
This is what enables IP and network is what lets us take large networks and carve them
up into smaller networks.
That's a whole lot more manageable.
And this is also how we can have multiple devices behind a single IP and we can keep
track of that and get some communication out.
So that's what's happening at the network layer.
That's a lot happening at the network layer.
There's a ton happening on and it's going on all the time.
Doesn't matter what device you're using, computer, a phone, you're on a cellular network.
It doesn't matter.
There's data traveling.
Layer three is happening everywhere.
Okay.
So let's shift on to layer four, the transport layer.
So primary focus at this level is to ensure packets arrive in the right order without
loss.
I can't speak.
I'm going to blame the beer too.
It's great.
Or errors or can be seamlessly recovered if required.
So again, we're getting into some flow control here.
At this point, you're going to hear references to TCP and UDP.
TCP being transmission control protocol.
The way that works is I'm sending it and you acknowledge that you've got it.
Then I'll send the next one.
You acknowledge that you got that one.
And then I'll send the next one and you acknowledge.
If you say, Hey, I didn't get it, then I will resend it before we go to the next one in
the chain.
So remember this is happening.
Yes, it is.
Basically, it's a speed light.
This is going on.
So that's the whole point of TCP.
If it's critical, and it's got to be there, we're going to use TCP.
The redheaded cousin, if you will, is UDP, which is the user data grant protocol.
And the reason why I say that is UDP doesn't care if you got it or not.
Nope.
It's here it comes.
I hope you get it.
And best of luck.
What it says on the I mean, I just got to say it because it says it on the sheet is
a lossy.
Yes.
Connectionless.
Yes.
And not lossless.
Not lossless.
Yeah, lossy.
Lossy.
Lossy has experienced this.
We're expecting to lose some stuff on this.
If you've been in a Zoom call, you've seen this.
It's more important that you just keep getting information, get it in the right order.
Correct.
Because if you were waiting for all of the Zoom call to come in order, it'd be an absolute
nightmare.
So I always talk about like the difference between a radio signal, which is lossy, and
a digital signal, which is usually lossless.
So like there's an element of like when wireless mics went digital, it's like, oh, that doesn't
sound right because you hear like this weird digital break off of information.
Yes.
And when it's analog, it sounds more like it just got weaker.
Yes.
So there is a place for it, but it is kind of funny.
Yeah, that digital, it's either there or it's not.
So if you've ever been in a Zoom call and you see you're watching a person talk fragments,
yeah, you see fragments pop up on the screen.
Or if in one view, they're leaning to the left, and the next time you immediately switches
and they've shifted to the right, you lost data.
You didn't see them move from the left to the right.
So that's UDP.
It's just like, here you go.
I hope you get it.
Lossless would be more of the like you see them stop and then you see them really quickly
jump between a few different locations.
Yeah, you'll see it try to speed back up and catch back up.
This also happens in phone calls as well.
Yeah, yeah, it's best effort.
Because again, if you're waiting for everything they're saying to come up, there's going to
be pauses and you're like waiting, waiting, waiting.
You mean lossy.
Yeah, it'd be lossy.
Yes.
So you get the same thing in phones, cell phone.
If you're using a digital phone at work, you're going to see that exact same experience.
Where that is not helpful is if you're sending a file like a Word document or something like
that, and it shows up all out of order.
Correct.
That is the opposite of helpful.
Yes.
Yes, yes.
So next layer, next layer, we are going to layer five, the session layer.
This is responsible for network coordination between two separate applications.
Session manages the beginning and ending of a one to one application connection and synchronization
conflicts.
Yeah, you lost me.
So an example of this layer would be network file system or server message block SMB.
SMB is going to be in the Windows world, NFS, Linux, Unix, some Mac, or some common pieces
at that layer.
You may have had to try to, if you've ever in the past, I don't know, 10 years, 15 years,
had to try to connect a Mac to a Windows share or a server.
Yes.
SMB colon slash slash.
Important to tell it what kind of block you're looking for.
Yes.
Yes, yes.
Anyway.
So let's hop up to layer six presentation layer.
Not necessarily what you're thinking, possibly.
No.
This is primarily concerned with syntax of the data for applications to send and consume.
This is the network's PowerPoint.
Yes.
So examples here is HTML, JavaScript, JSON, CSVs are all modeling languages to describe
the structure of the data at the presentation layer.
So if you've ever worked with any of that, you have experienced what's going on at the
presentation layer.
Yeah.
I mean, I think HTML is the one that we all...
Most people will know that.
Know that.
Basic web page.
But CSV is actually, because it's so simple, it's widely adopted for different things.
Yes.
But HTML is the one that I think people are going to remember.
They're going to recognize the most.
Yeah.
Okay.
So let's jump to layer seven, the application layer.
This specific layer is...
I think I just said specific and not specific.
I heard specific, but again, the beer is doing its job.
Yes.
The application layer is concerned with a specific type of application itself and its
standardized communication methods.
That's a lot of gobbledygook.
An example would be a web browser can communicate using HTTP or HTTPS.
And email clients, if you still have some of this out there, possibly POP3, long live
POP3.
Long live...
You're so weird.
Yes.
And SMTP, which is...
SMTP.
Okay.
You've got to have SMTP or you're not transmitting.
Yeah, no, that's important.
Yes.
POP3, for those who don't know, is the old school way of getting your email into your
client.
And it was, I want it, give it to me.
Okay, delete it.
I've got it.
Yep.
And that was going on all the time.
It's hard for me to imagine why you would like that, Chris.
Long live POP3.
Oh my gosh.
So, all right, so that is the seven layers.
And so for those, I know you can't see this right now, but it will be in the show notes.
Yeah.
I've got a graphic here that kind of shows a comparison of the seven layer model versus
the four layer TCP IP model.
And don't hold me to it, but if I remember correctly on the DoD model, transport and
internet are connected together and that's referred to as the network layer.
I will confirm that.
What's the network interface known as?
That is data link and physical.
So I believe that, I think it is physical.
I'll have to double check.
This is going to be great because of some research before the next one.
I may have to fix some stuff in postal here.
It's going to be great.
So, so you'll see this, it's kind of nice to see how the seven layers of OSI compared
to the four TCP IP.
So OSI, you've got application presentation and session are all separate layers on the
TCP IP model.
Those are combined as the application layer.
OSI, you get transport and network.
That is the same on TCP IP.
Those are combined on the DoD.
And then last on OSI, data link and physical or individual on the TCP model.
And I believe it's also the same on the DoD model.
They are combined here on the TCP IP model.
They are referred to as network interface.
This also has some examples of things that you would actually see in the various layers.
So down at the physical, RS-232 serial communication, still usable on a lot of professional displays.
UTP cabling, cat5, cat6, DSL, optical fiber, at the data link layer, ethernet, network,
IPv4, v6, like we talked about, ARP, IGMP, ICMP.
Do I need to explain ARP?
I saw your address resolution protocol.
I don't know your IP.
I've got your MAC address.
Has anybody got this?
And you get that back.
OK, now I can transmit.
Step up to transport.
Again, TCP UDP, like we talked about.
Step up to session.
You're back to NFS.
SQL for database.
SMB, RPC, peer-to-peer tunneling.
SCP, SDP, SIP for those digital phones in your network.
AH-323 video.
Very important.
And then you step up to presentation layer.
That's where you're going to have compression and encryption protocols happening.
And then finally at the top, application layer, application layer, Modbus, SCP-2, DNP-3, HTTP,
ICCP, BACnet, OpenADR, Goose.
Please don't ask me to tell you what some of those are, because some of those I don't
know.
But that's basically what's happening.
And then specific to the OSI model, what I learned in order to remember the order is
all people seem to need network data processing.
So that's the first letter of each layer put into...
There's not two Ns.
To need is the transport, not the...
Data processing.
Oh, you said to...
All people seem to need data processing.
There was one to go from the bottom up.
I didn't learn it.
It's funny.
I think if you got one direction...
Y'all can Google that.
One direction.
That's a bad reference.
No more beer for you.
So again, this graphic is going to be in the show notes for people to take a look at.
Okay.
So any questions on that?
I think we're good.
We're ready for another beer.
59 minutes.
You say another beer.
Oh no.
I actually brought another beer.
So okay, if we're at 59 minutes, I think we can probably call this a good stopping point.
Yeah.
Next time, so I'm going to have to come up with a new name for this.
The name that I gave was intended...
We can use that on the next one.
We can.
So try to have fun with the names.
I'll have to come up with something.
We'll figure out what it ends up being.
Welcome home.
Yeah.
It's good to be back.
No Boostergrams.
That means nobody's listening.
Sorry.
Well, people are listening.
Well, people are downloading.
I can say that.
People are downloading.
It took us eight shows to get to 300 downloads.
This is show 12.
We are 10 downloads away from 400.
Hey, that's really picking up, which is generally what you see.
And if it holds true, this episode will push us into the 400s.
Nice.
We can confirm that we have at least 11 subscribers, baby.
Double digit on subscribers.
We made it.
We have arrived.
So that being said, get this published hopefully tonight.
Don't hold me to it.
No, I'm not going to.
We'll finally break the 400 downloads barrier.
Come on Aussies.
I need just one download.
Just one.
You got to link road to us.
So somebody from road is like, wait a minute.
Yeah.
We talked about your product.
We did.
Would you like to hear what we said?
Very grateful.
You can send product.
Good job, bro.
Yes.
Okay.
Yeah.
So, uh, yeah, I think again, this is a good place to stop.
Um, I definitely rep recommend the Trappist Rush Fort number 10.
Nice.
So always recommend China.
Yes, absolutely.
And the XTM 100 and the XT it's worth spending your money on.
Thanks guys.
Yep.
Thank you everyone.
Thank you, John.
Thanks for joining us.
We'll see you next time.
Hey everybody.
Thanks for joining us.