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Parenting's hard, you don't know what to do

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You blame me, your kids, but it's probably you

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You love your kids and that you can trust

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Just remember your kids don't suck

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Welcome to your kids don't suck

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Cultivating closeness with your children through a non-coercive conscious parenting

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We're your hosts, Kara Tedstone and Ruthie Ali

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Let's dive in and grow together

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So, Kara, there's certain topics that are radioactive for people

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Like it just sends people into deep reactivity and sometimes even a trauma response and rage

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and like deep authoritarian programming and one of them is screen time

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I'm not sure why that is so triggering for everybody but I noticed that it is

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and so I just been really scared to talk about it on our podcast

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because it's one of these issues where people kind of black and white the whole issue

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it's like a hard line like nope that damages kids brains

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that's end of the story I'll never do that you know and that's it

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and so if I tell my story about how that is not what I'm doing

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I guess I have this fear of just turning people off to the whole bigger message

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that's one thing another thing is and this is really tricky

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I feel like there are some kids who genuinely love structure and they thrive on it and they like it

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and if you're like sweetie this is what I'm offering let's do two hours of screen time

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and I don't know in the afternoon and then you could do it a half an hour before bedtime

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and the kid will be like great and that could last for years without a child

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having a problem with it and I'm totally down with that I wish

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sometimes that my child was like that but that is not how my child is my child is

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hyper hyper hyper sensitive to being controlled or managed or told what to do

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and it's not like with her I've never been able to just do non-corson a little bit

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it's never like we'll just do a little bit over here and a little bit over there

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and I don't know if kids can't even do that but once you give my child a taste of

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choice, collaboration, mutuality, she's like that she just gets right she's on that train

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she's like wait a minute you can't tell me what to do we've decided we're collaborating

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you decided I'm a whole person with my own opinions and I get to have a say and no

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I'm not going to do what you say that's not right that's not what we're doing in this family

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and because that's the culture and that's what we've decided we're doing controlling your

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screen time doesn't make any sense you know and I don't want people to think like you should do it

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how I'm doing it I don't even feel that about this whole podcast I don't feel like anybody should

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do it because I'm doing it this way I'm saying this works for us and especially if I'm working

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with the underlying principles of non-corsive conscious collaborative parenting which is that

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I am not the authority and that we are collaborating and negotiating so therefore I in in in my home

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I actually can't really set limits for my child I can make suggestions an example is you know we

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basically go to sleep by midnight every night that is not my preference I would not I do not want

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that that's not really what I want but it turns out at 11 o'clock at night my daughter tells me

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all of her deepest feelings so I've decided that's what we're doing I'm sacrificing that last hour

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to have sleep and I want to be close to my kid so that's one thing and so there's a larger trust

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that my daughter though she might appear to be on the screen like a lot like more than most people

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would think is okay I am trusting the long arc of her regulating herself which you know if you

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control the child in your home all their life they'll eventually hopefully you know they grow up and

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they leave your house and then they have to experiment with all the stuff anyway every single person

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is going to have to figure out their relationship to their screen everybody has to figure that out

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what they do during childhood or you know same with the food same with sleep same with exercise

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same with friendship same with boundaries all of it all of it and so in this lifestyle that I'm

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doing my daughter is figuring that all out while she's with me so that I can give input and guidance

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while she's with me so last night she said you know I'm not really into our night time schedule

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of sleep and I feel like we're finally at the place where I was like I don't like it either

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we really find it hard she said I would like to be going to bed earlier and getting up earlier

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because my schedule is so different than all my friends because you know she's a home schooler

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and so we're gonna keep talking about it now if I was controlling it's to be like yeah let's change

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it what time do you want to go to bed all right let's do that tonight let's go to bed at 10 and

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then that wouldn't work for my daughter as soon as I come in and start trying to control the

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whole thing she's out then she'll start resisting me then she'll really want to stay up late and

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then we're in a power struggle so that's I don't know how I operate I go huh that's interesting

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yeah I don't like it either what do you suggest and she said yeah I want to go to bed earlier I

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said okay let's talk about it again tomorrow that's it we're in the long arc of exploring so

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it's the same on screen time well at the beginning you said that people are so triggered by it and

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my immediate question was what is your tool what triggers you about screen time do you think

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I'm very personal yeah your own personal um response to my daughter's on the screen like what

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did your brain do I have to say in all of the non-coercive work I've done all these years which

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is six years the screen time has been the biggest hardest trigger for me yeah I want to know why

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because I know it's it might be obvious but I just love to hear what does your brain do when you

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think about that there's so many parts one is just the thing that everyone feels is like oh my god my

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child is frying their brain you know like she's this is very bad for her she should be doing other

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things she should be getting fresh air she should be moving her body she should be making art that's

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a big one now the thing with my daughter is as soon as she's with friends she's off the screen or

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they're making really fun videos together but when she's with people she puts her phone down and we

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just and she plays you know it's not like she can't be with people then she gets into lots of things

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where she puts her phone down lots and lots of things yesterday she decided to honor on to go on

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a bike ride and I always have to take note like okay my kid's doing that on her own I didn't tell her

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to do what she's doing it she's 11 like that's amazing then she said I want to get up early

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mom I want to get up early this morning with tomorrow she said last night because I want to

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do some self-care that's miraculous adults can't even do that and that's all because of what this

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lifestyle that we're in this mindset because she is experiencing what it's like to make her choices

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and she's evaluating what feels good and what doesn't feel good and she knows that I'm right there

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to help her with whatever change she wants to make okay but back to your question about the screen

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so first it's like yes she's wasting her time okay that's the first thing she's wasting your time

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to what everybody says like you should read the science it's hurting their brains like literally

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messing up their brains their eyes their you know their pathways the neurological pathways

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so there's that and then then it's the material that she's watching I mean my when my daughter

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when I first took off the stop on the screens she started watching sitcoms it's so funny because I

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was very triggered by the sitcoms and now the sitcom seems better to me than what she's watching

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anyway she'd watch a million thousand sitcoms of every kind you could think of but they were all

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completely I felt deeply sexist and racist homophobic just the worst shit like the worst

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first body image terrible shit I mean I just like oh my god I'm like this is what is programing

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my daughter's brain right now about what's normal and it has it has programmed her I mean you know

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she has all the internalized fat phobia she's got it she's got what it means to be a girl

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but the thing is we talk about it we talk about it because she knows what sexism and racism is

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and homophobes and I'll be like where are the gay characters can we talk about are there any gay

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people in this sitcom and she'll be like no I'll be like are there any people of color in this

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sitcom and she'll be like wow there's this person I'm like oh is that like you know the best friend

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who hardly ever is on the screen you know like well so I'm I bring it I we analyze it in a context

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I don't just like let it go and she's getting much more into queer material now you know as she

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gets older finding well there are more shows now that queer people on them now thank god and not

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not even enough but it's starting um so that's the thing so it's like it's how she's being the material

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itself and then the time that she spends on it well I I won't gonna challenge you a little bit

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the only because you said all that but then you had a rebuttal for each point I did which is yes

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which is which is telling me that in some way even though you're worried and that trigger the fear is

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there that like it's limitless and it's endless and it's taking her away from life and living and

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material and da da da you have a rebuttal to every single one of those fears in the way that

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makes you like a really conscious attuned and intentional parent so that you are supporting

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her still even though she's using the screens for entertainment and for connection too basically my

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point is is like you're telling me all these fears I hear you I 100% agree I'm with you I think the

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same thing like I'm totally on board with what you're saying and it resonates with me but at the

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same time you're talking about all of that as if you don't then think about it and engage with her

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and still keep the conversation going and explore other ways of engaging in life together and have

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conversations and do all the things at the same time I feel like your fear is telling you like

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screens are bad because because because and then you're kind of doing that black and white thinking

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there but really you're not acting in that way you're not behaving in that way like you're still

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using screens in your family life in a productive and educational way and even when it's not it's

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no big deal because you do other things too do you know what I'm saying yeah thanks that's a real

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reframe I feel emotional talking about this because the underbelly of choosing to be a non-corrosive

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parent is that the relationship becomes more important than the things honoring her autonomy

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is more important to me than even how scared I am about the screens that is really the essence of

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this podcast I feel in this work is like what you're prioritizing it's not that people are wrong

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and that they're concerned about screens it's just they make that more important than their

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relationship with their kid in some way I like for example I have so many friends with all their

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kids their screen limits on every single parent that I have they their screen limits like I have

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a best friend and her daughter gets five hours a day and then it goes off and she can't get on

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anymore so her daughter has to figure out what five hours she can use and again I don't judge

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that that's fine that's great if that works for their family great but you know the kid sneaks

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like I'm telling you I spent so much time on the computer with my neighborhood friends we would go

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and come over and play on the computer do Neilpetz dolls just games like games for kids so you know

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all the kids kind of played around on there and there was no screen time limits it was like great

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you guys are on your on the computer playing around cool like there was no talk of the damages

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because it had just come out and I can guarantee if I was 12 13 years old and my parents said like

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you're only allowed five hours a day on the computer I would have been like I'm going over to my friend

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Haley's then and I'll be over there playing on her computer like right on and I would leave the house

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and I'd go to my friend's house if that works for you and your family and it eliminates power

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struggles because you have this rule that you've just kind of said it's a non-negotiable and your

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kid is like all right cool and it's not worth the conversation or the fight if your kid is like me

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and wanting still more your kid will go and find it I mean that's what I'm that's what I see with

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my friends kids is they sneak it that's what I'm saying and then when they get their own phone who

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the hell knows when they get old enough to have their own phone I mean right have you heard of

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have you heard of the wait till eight thing wait till grade eight to get them a phone or to get them on

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their own computer like that it doesn't work for the majority of kids because they're going to go

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and get their friends or the other thing about this is that kids feel really really left out when

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they can't you know game and go on the discord chats and they can't use snapchat and they can't text

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like it's being on screens a lot of experts will say that are not non-coercive experts like child

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development experts and other child therapy types will say like when you prevent your kid from

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accessing screens or you limit in a way you'll come into conflict because of the social isolation

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not because of the screens like it's a completely other topic in conversations not about the screen

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at that point when actually the majority of their socializing is done online unfortunately in 2023

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that is the reality for most kids it doesn't have to be unfortunately I mean I hear you I do

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believe I do believe in face-to-face you know socialization I really that and my daughter has

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played dates like constantly so it's happening but I don't think it's unfortunately you know she

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plays games with people that are all over the world yeah it's okay I don't have the same judgment

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but I just get so much judgment that I feel defensive I do I guess I do have some internalized

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doubt and I have to keep reminding myself what my priority is I have to look at my child and say

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how is how is she doing how does her brain seem well tell me that what do you think how do you

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think she's doing I think she's doing great I mean I see her really trying to tune into what works

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for her from the inside out not from because I approve or disapprove or disapprove or because

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even what her friends are doing but because of what things feel like she did recently decide she

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wanted to try to put some screen green limits on her own phone then she kept overriding it so she

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said that's not working so she's gonna I don't know she's working on it she obviously has her own

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opinion maybe she thinks she's on it too much and she's gonna work on I mean I'm it's not like I'm

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not gonna help her with that but I'm not gonna control it yeah I just think that this is such a

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missed opportunity in families when the limits start from like they it's a top-down thing like

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it's a power thing where it's like well screens are really not good for you so therefore we're

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gonna do this and the parent says that to the kid to me that's a really missed opportunity for

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conversation for openness for sharing to really find out what they're looking at right like the

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moment that you shut it out the minute that they shut down the moment that you prevent it the moment

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that they go and find it so like you're really missing the exploration that really comes from

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the non-course of approach inviting openness I wanted to make this point earlier is that what I see

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with my friends kids is the sneak that's what I was trying to say they sneak screens their friends

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screens I just see them trying to take it and go in the other room and sneak it you know there's a

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lot of sneaking so once you have a kid sneaking from the parent you're immediately setting up a

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power dynamic and you're immediately having separation because now they have to get around you

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to get the thing they want they have to get they have to get around you to feel like everyone else

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I can't it's hard for me to use my child as an example because it was so freaking terrible but I had

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a whole world and a life that my parents didn't know about from as early as I can remember I was

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sneaking everything you could think of they wouldn't let me eat sugar I go to my friend's house and

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binge sugar they wouldn't let me watch TV I wasn't allowed to watch TV I go to my friend's house and

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watch hours and hours of really inappropriate terrible stuff I had no way to self-regulate I

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had no guidance around because it was just no it was just no there was no like you're saying like

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you're saying a total missed opportunity the only thing is I hear people in my mind right now saying

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care they're like I have a three-year-old what are you you know I have a two-year-old and a three-year-old

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yeah we're not going to discuss screen time like what the hell are you talking about well I mean I

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have a one and a half year old almost and we still use screens and we don't talk about it either but

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it's not an issue because it's not an issue yet not an issue yet because it it it's only going to

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become an issue when it becomes like she doesn't want to turn them off right so that's probably what

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those parents are talking about if I have a three-year-old we can't have a conversation and when I

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say let's let's turn them off they don't want to and they demand more and more and more I assume yes

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right so when you were when you were when Tori was younger and you had that I mean I know she was

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around five but what how did you approach it you have to remember that I went I I had been controlling

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her and had a kind of spiritual awakening so I took everything all the stops off all at once I said

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you can watch as much video as you want I went right into like totally not letting her watch

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video at all to like just saying watch as much as you want I went nuts you know so she would watch

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it until she was done and then that was it trying to remember what happened in the beginning I mean

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yeah as soon as I said you can watch it she of course did what Vivek told me she would do which

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is that she would cling to it because she was so scared I was going to take it away again that she

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would you know hoard it hoard it she did the same thing with sugar she was like you haven't let me

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eat sugar for five years you haven't let me watch screen survivors I'm going to hoard the shit out

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of this and this is what people are really scared of if I don't control it then my kid will just

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watch videos from morning till night they will never stop and that is what happened that is not

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what's happening now but that is what is what happened she went nuts on these things because

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she had been deprived and she was reacting and she was wanting to take back the controls and that

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took years for her to stop feeling like like it took years for her to feel like she could

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take her grip off of those things yeah in my head saying like well I'm not prepared to let to have

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my kid watch as much as they want I'm just not prepared when I'm thinking about the kids of the

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parents of the younger kids like around my my kids age or a little bit older toddlers and preschoolers

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and preschoolers I hear that because I would not too want aliyah watching screens all day long and

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youtube after youtube after youtube so to that I would probably bring into the collaboration thing

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because the way that we do it is we just watch it until she's ready I just ask her like are you ready

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to go we're gonna go outside soon like when are you right because she understand I've said this

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before on the show she understands everything and she can say yes or no and she will tell me no and

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I'll say oh you want a few more minutes and she's like yeah and then usually we get to a point in

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the show that she's watching that she's done and then when she gets to that point I'm like do you

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want to be all done now and go outside and she'll just say yes but for some families they'll say to

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me well my kid won't ever say yes my kid will say no no no I want more more more more more

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so I would try to collaborate and see if you can ask them if they're like offered the other options

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of the day do you want to go outside do you want to go to the park do you want to do the other

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things like that's how I would navigate that and if they truly said no no no no no and just watch the

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screen yeah that's gonna require a deeper conversation about like well what are you gonna do are you

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just gonna accept that this is part of your journey for now if you want to jump into non-corrosion

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in the true sense and see what happens you know like what do you say to that if your kid is actually

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wanting the screen from dawn until dusk and not saying yes to other options right that like that's

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the most extreme that you could kind of think about and it happens it's true it does happen

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oh it does it does I offer collaboration always is like the first kind of lifeline of response but

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when that doesn't work you know let's let's brainstorm that out loud you know Kara I've never

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met anybody who's starting non-corrosion at the beginning so a lot of what happened with me and

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Tori was because I had already coerced her in many ways not like totally and completely but

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I was a gentle nice controlling parent until she was five so a lot of what came later like the last

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the next four years when I switched was her having to process all the years of being controlled

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that's so true part of it what you're saying is she was relinquishing her freedom again right so

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using control on her end to process that experience so that makes total sense so you're saying you

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don't know what would have happened if you had raised her from the beginning in this way that

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I'm doing with Aliyah right yeah that's why I'm so fascinated to see all the things that will happen

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with you well this is the thing like I am not an expert in doing this I work with families obviously

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and when we when they come to me and they say that you know we talk about all this and we kind of

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explore but you're right I am doing this from the beginning and I have not met anyone who has

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with Aliyah screens are just uh you want it sure like it's not a big it's just it's a it's like

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food we're very just easy and and relaxed with food in my house like I don't get stressed out

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at all about mealtimes she eats what she eats I present what I present she eats what she eats

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and I let the rest go she always has food on the table that she likes and I know she'll probably eat

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and even if she doesn't I just move on if she sees a bagel on the counter and wants it I give it to

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her like I just I let it I let her eat intuitively like I just that's how I do it and I'm like that

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with screens like she always knows we watch screen time in the morning when I do her hair about 20

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ish minutes he's usually done after about a half hour then we usually go outside and then if she

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points to the remote and is like at me for the screen we'll watch a few minutes here or there

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like it's just like no big deal and then she usually she's done I'm so curious how that's going to

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unfold it may unfold into the screen obsessed person that you know I hear about all the time

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I'm just remembering right now that the big arguments that most parents have that I've

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heard is that it's addictive that's it that's the thing everybody says have you read the studies

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you know screens screens are addictive control it for your child because they will get addictive

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it and plus we know every single adult right now is addicted to their phone come on we all are we all

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are yeah um sometimes when I actually really love tiktok I have to tell you I'm a total tiktoker

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but I don't I don't lose tons of time watching tiktok say I'll say I'm gonna watch for like 20

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minutes or then I'll watch and I just I watch things that mean a lot to me people that mean a

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lot to me sometimes I do it for fun but I'm not addicted I don't feel addicted um but you know

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if you saw me I'm probably on my phone as much as anyone else for a million reasons not just tiktok

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whatever anyway but about the addiction when we're at my daughter has a phone she's had a phone for a

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year she's almost 12 when we're in the car I'll say will you not be on your phone so we can talk and

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like nine out of ten times she goes oh yeah yeah yeah or she'll be like I'm just gonna I'm just gonna

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text my best friend and then I'll talk and so she so and because she doesn't feel controlled by me

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she feels okay with that that's what I was gonna say with this whole question of like what about

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these younger kids if your child doesn't feel constantly controlled by you just in general

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I do think that you're gonna have more success with coming at this entire issue with collaboration

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in your toolbox will you get off your phone or will you put your phone away so we can talk is a

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question that's a collaborative question you can ask yeah you're not saying get off your phone

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Tori come on man I want to talk to you wait if you ask me a question you have to be willing to

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hear no sometimes she says mom I'm in the middle of texting my friend I just got to finish this and

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and sometimes it takes the whole car right and that's just you know she gets to decide

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but most of the time she puts it away and because she wants the connection and we've negotiated that

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that that's we both value that well this is why I think like that conversation and I know I keep

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coming back to it because it's sticking my head right now it's like I'm attached to this idea of

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parents saying well sorry but if I let my kid watch screens all day they will from you know

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dawn until dusk blah blah blah I think it's because there is not the emphasis on the connection and

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the collaboration and instead there is that emphasis on coercion in the family like in the

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relationship when kids are collaborated with and that's the norm and they know to expect that in

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the side of their relationship with their parents and it's not the power dynamic that we traditionally

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see I think kids are more likely to actually tune into the needs of what the parent is is collaborating

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on them with right I know that it's really hard I know that there are instances where you might not

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you might hear no right the kid might actually stay on the screen all day and that's going to suck

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for you when you want to see your kid doing other things and also spend time outside of screens with

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your kid but when you truly engage in a non-coercive and collaborative way I really think that you're

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going to have more opportunities for real collaboration that result in getting your needs met as well

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versus the screen time hard limit situation because then anytime you drop your rope on that

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they're going to take advantage because they're like oh they're going to take it away I'm going to

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hoard it all like you said or they're going to stick to the limits and maybe there's not going to be

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a whole ton of conversation about it at home because they've accepted it but they're going to go find

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it another way outside of the house. I really do think you can start if you're interested in

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non-coercion you can start by creating a limit you can be friendly and kind of you go this is how

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many watch we do a day I think it's fine unless your kid really doesn't like that they're pushing

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against it they feel controlled by it as soon as they feel controlled by it and they're saying no

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and you're forcing them now you're already now you're in the course of dynamic and then kids will

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use anything to claim their autonomy they will use whatever they can have whatever they can get their

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hands on so they will they will try to get to the screen or get to the food or get to the whatever

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it is you're not letting them do or they'll just shut it down they'll leave your house and they'll

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be forced to have to navigate those things by themselves. Last night my daughter started telling me

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you know I want to respect her privacy so I'm going to make this as general as possible

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she started telling me quote unquote inappropriate terms that she's heard on the internet she said

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mom I learned this word it's like a really provocative word I'm like what what she goes

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what does that mean so I'm saying oh that means this what does this word mean I'm like how did

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you learn this word she goes on my probably on my Instagram videos I said well which one she's

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like I don't know I learned lots and lots of words I'm like I'm like are you watching anything that's

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that I should know about or like do you feel uncomfortable with it she's like no it's all

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really I don't know how it got in there but I learned this word and that one too so I started

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having to define all these these words for her and explain what they are and we got we got into

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it I mean it made me really anxious that she's learning that you know without me somewhere but

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then I feel so relieved that she's asking me and telling me I know that if I was controlling her

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she would never tell me yeah yeah well hearing that you tell me about that I obviously I'm not

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the parent so I don't get any anxiety I just get like I wish that I had that and I wish that my kid

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had that with me like I wish I had that with my parents and I wish my kid had that with me and

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I wish that all children had that with their parents because that is such a good example of how

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human beings should feel that they can explore and play and freely engage with stuff and then

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talk about it with their people at home without fear of shame or judgment yeah like she said what

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is you know like at some point this was not last night but the you know what does slut mean what

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is the word slut mean so then I have to figure out in those moments how the fuck I'm gonna explain

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it's really hard but I'm like oh thank god she's asking me it was all those kinds of questions

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Kara wow we're in it together thank god because here's the thing if you just say no you can't

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know these are screen limits and this and the child feels really controlled and then they start

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hoarding it and then they start hiding it and then they become a teenager and then they go to your

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friends then they're gonna be hiding all the shit that they're being exposed to they're not gonna come

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ask you about it but the internet is dangerous I'm my daughter like you know like she knows what

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porn is she's never seen it she said that last night I said well what are you watching what did

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you see she goes mom it's not porn don't worry but that's but it's like really important for her to

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know what it is though yeah I think it's incredibly important for her to not be in the dark that's

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that's the thing with this when you start setting limits and having hard lines on things and non

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negotiables you do close off the ability to for that child to come with you with questions come to

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you with questions because you've already said like not in my house or like not after these times or

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like don't you know push push me here don't push me there like there's an implicit like expectation

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for this kid to go off and do what you've said therefore like why would that kid then come to

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you freely and ask questions about it because you've already kind of told them that you're closed

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not only that but like you broke the rules yeah you watched something you weren't supposed to be

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watching you broke the rules so now your kids are not going to tell you what they did while they were

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breaking the rules because also you know the context of breaking the rules might be like oh I

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watched it at my friend Hailey's house after you told me I wasn't allowed to watch screens that day

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right there there's more there's there's so much more to the conversation that you're then missing

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because you've already set all these limits around it what if they break that rule like you said

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find out about it and then they have these really scary questions but they're not going to God forbid

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they ask you because you they broke the rule and the consequence for breaking the rules left screen

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time so why are you you're not going to tell yeah and like that is really sad to me that like kids

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feel like they can't talk about certain things with their parents it's so it's not just sad it's

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dangerous it's fucking dangerous when children are feel so controlled that they can't bring

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you their their most scary experiences to their parent this is this is it oh my god I'm so moved

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because I feel so much shame around the screen time that I allow my child and I feel like this

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conversation is helping me get underneath the shame but why am doing this that's why I asked

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you at the beginning like that's why I challenged you because I was like I you have great you have

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like you have thought the fucking shit out of this like you have responses to all of this

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it's really just your self-hating voice and also the societal input I think that's coming out there

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when I see comments like on your videos or anywhere people saying like well I really hope

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that you're at least like limiting a little bit maybe you know what types of what kind of time

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are you talking about in the context of how much screens you're certainly only allowing her maybe

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three hours a day right you're certainly following the AAP recommendations right like people will

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say that to parents who say like oh my kid has no limits it's not about the limits it's about the

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thought that you put into the thing that your kid is engaging with I really hate when people put

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like bad and good labels on things what is the child's internalized voice about now they're

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going to grow up feeling intense shame whenever they watch screens and whenever they eat or

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all when you're controlling and shaming and judging that becomes the child's self-hating voice

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that they that's that's the voice they're going to treat how they're going to treat themselves uh

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with the screen or anything else when you have the judgment and again I really think boundaries

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and limits are absolutely fine if it's not putting a wedge in your relationship that's fine like

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that's what collaboration is all about yeah yeah ask your kid if this works for them try that

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you know I I think this much screen time is good for your brain what do you think let's try it let's

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try it and evaluate together how that feels I want you to get outside and have fresh air and

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blah blah blah what do you want to try that let's try this schedule

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you know when you were just saying like it's all the same issues right like there's never

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good time to set a limit and then you were saying well you can set a limit but of course you have

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to talk to your kid what's um what's the barrier there like for the parents like are they not sure

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how to do that or like what you mean or the barrier is always the same which is I mean there's many

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typical universal barriers to treating your child as a whole human being but in terms of screen time

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people don't even know they it doesn't even literally occur to them to ask their child

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it doesn't occur to them to collaborate with their child I had the most amazing session with someone

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just a couple of like a couple days ago it was this person who's totally doing non-couraging

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with their their 14 year old there was just such a beautiful session but um she can't get her kid

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to school on time I mean they're like in the battle of wills every single morning and then I get to

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that point in the session like have you asked your child like hey this is hard I'm noticing it's like

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we're both not having fun and it's really painful what do you think we should do and getting into

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like a whole conversation about how it feels to both of you and she's like no I hadn't thought of that

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and that's the that's the common barrier is to think to include your child into your world

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into the world of whatever the challenge is and you know I can hear people arguing with me you know

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no children don't have the intellectual wherewithal they don't have the experience they don't have the

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information you can't let them negotiate you can't let them have input they don't know what they're

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talking about you know so or they might say like I don't believe my child has the capacity to do that

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like I didn't say that to my kid and they'll say well I don't know well they'll say I just want

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to watch it as much as I want yeah or they'll just give some like answer that isn't satisfying

385
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,920
but a lot of times it's not necessarily about the screens and that's the thing I was

386
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:28,640
explaining to the parents last night in my parents support group is it seems like it's about the

387
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:34,320
screen it seems like it's about the sweets but usually it's your child fighting for autonomy

388
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:39,200
and picking something that they feel really controlled around and hanging on to it and fighting

389
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:44,320
for it as hard as they can because they need to feel a sense of self they need to feel autonomous

390
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:49,360
Ruthie one thing I want to know what you say to parents is when parents ask you well what about

391
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,520
I try to collaborate with my kid and I tell them you know what do you think we could do and this

392
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:57,280
is how it's it's hard for me I've noticed it's tricky what do you you know you know what do you

393
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,400
think about that and their kid just says I don't know I don't know I want to watch tv I don't know

394
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:05,040
and they just kind of shut down that's the thing is like you have to it's like starting over if you

395
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:09,360
decide you're going to go non-course if you're starting the whole relationship over and there

396
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:15,680
is a period of time where you let go of control and things go nuts things go crazy because it's

397
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:21,280
like you have to think of it was you and someone had been controlling your screen time for five years

398
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:26,800
and now they decide they're gonna let go well yeah you're gonna overwatch just like you're gonna

399
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:31,040
overeat sweets and just like you're gonna overdo whatever the thing is that's been controlled

400
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:37,200
I mean it took my daughter years to finally start to ask herself how she wants to regulate her

401
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:41,920
screens because she she knew it was so triggering for all the adults in her life so she held on to

402
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:47,120
it really really tight now she feels free to explore it herself but that took a long time

403
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:51,920
on the show once you said like we should allow children children should be allowed to have a

404
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:56,800
fucking process yeah which when parents say to me because I get this a lot of my work like well I

405
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,480
try to collaborate with my kid they just say I don't know well I encounter that a lot in therapy

406
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:05,520
with teenagers and younger children like I don't know is something that kids say people say I don't

407
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:12,880
say but I think with non-coursing like that's the process I don't know is a fine answer keep talking

408
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:17,840
about it keep revisiting it keep collaborating if they don't know in that moment like maybe you

409
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:23,600
don't either maybe there's no solution to be found in that moment you know but you can also try stuff

410
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:28,400
I always talk about writing writing down stuff so why don't we try this yeah let's do that for a week

411
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:33,200
and then let's check in again then let's try this and make a whole list of let's try things yeah

412
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:37,600
because I know from my experience like I'm thinking of particular families like they'll say to me well

413
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,600
I've tried to collaborate my kid says I don't know and then I don't know where to go from there

414
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:46,240
I would offer why don't you suggest something and if they are super not into it that's your

415
00:35:46,240 --> 00:35:52,480
cue to continue to brainstorm like keep the process open keep exploring and keep bringing it up in

416
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:57,360
moments where you're connected obviously so it's not a lecture and it's not it's not an authoritative

417
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:01,120
thing but it's just trying and it's not pulling right it's it's really being mindful that you're

418
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:05,600
not like digging and digging and pulling and pulling and nagging it's more just like okay like yeah

419
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:09,840
maybe I don't know either maybe we'll talk about it another time I think when kids say don't know

420
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:15,760
a lot it's because they really do feel pressed on and pulled on then they they just kind of shut

421
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:20,080
down actually I use that a lot in my work with teens like if they're saying I don't know a lot

422
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:25,280
I go okay I'm pulling back yeah unfortunately for parents sometimes that looks like in therapeutic

423
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:29,760
work all teen therapists and kid therapists will say sometimes that looks like then moving into

424
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:35,680
connection which is not fixing the kid which is more like gaming with the kid telling stories

425
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:41,520
coloring like playing neopets or whatever because then they don't feel pulled on and they're more

426
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:46,400
much more likely to share something later on even if it's weeks like I'm in periods of that

427
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:51,040
all the time in my work where I'm just playing games for weeks and weeks and then you break

428
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:55,520
through into some other moment where you've really been as like a conscious therapist that's obviously

429
00:36:55,520 --> 00:37:01,440
our job is to really notice when you're getting the shutdown to reflect and think oh that's my

430
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:07,600
part of my process I need to shift gears I need to pull back so for parents I think like they

431
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,960
they might feel frustrated when we keep saying collaborate and they'll say like well my my

432
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,720
10 year old they can't like they actually can't they keep shutting down they say I don't know

433
00:37:14,720 --> 00:37:19,920
I try to collaborate with them but they won't do it or they can't do it I would say that it's

434
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,920
probably because that's part of the process right now you're still collaborating you just maybe need

435
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:29,120
to pull back a little bit and move into connection probably covert control going on and the parent

436
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:33,040
doesn't recognize it they think oh my kid just doesn't want to my kid doesn't like to they want to

437
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:38,320
do their own thing I mean there's you know some of that's natural as kids grow up they want their

438
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:44,000
own space but a lot of times if a child feels controlled they don't want to share that's just

439
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:51,360
the result of it that's the result of control that's the result of coercion and so I it's funny

440
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:57,280
I've been trying to make videos on tiktok about how can children really play with their parents if

441
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:05,040
they feel controlled they can't really let down because they have to be ready to protect themselves

442
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:10,720
in any moment just like the rest of us we can't play with people we don't who have power over us

443
00:38:10,720 --> 00:38:14,960
yeah you can't trust it yeah being really vulnerable and being really like free to just

444
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:24,800
express yourself when you don't really trust that person

445
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:33,760
screen time now is shifting okay my daughter just turned 12 two days ago our relationship is really

446
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:38,800
shifting her brain is really shifting you really feel like we're in the friend part of it and I

447
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:45,840
never felt it so clearly it's so amazing it's really really feels so good it feels so good to

448
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:53,200
not having to I think a lot of the stress of parenting is or has been for me in the past is

449
00:38:53,200 --> 00:39:00,240
how am I gonna adequately control my child you know how am I gonna get them to da da da da

450
00:39:00,240 --> 00:39:06,160
how am I gonna stop them from blah blah blah why isn't she doing this shouldn't she be like that

451
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:11,600
and the comparing and all that stuff this behavior this is a bad behavior how am I gonna get that

452
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:17,040
behavior to stop you know all of that and then all my childhood stuff you know so and so I'm

453
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:22,560
finally at the point because she's 12 where I'm actually trusting her and I'm trusting myself so

454
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:28,560
like that whatever I've worked on all these years there's now this big bubble of trust

455
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:35,360
that I can lean into and it carries both of us and so I'm so much less worried about screen time

456
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,880
than I used to be that was like my main trigger for years and years and years this was the screen

457
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:44,720
time so it's funny I noticed a lot of times I think I might have already said this on this episode but

458
00:39:44,720 --> 00:39:50,320
like when I go to engage with my daughter she puts her phone down and engages with me that's just

459
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:55,280
how it is she doesn't just keep looking at her phone and it doesn't listen to me and that doesn't

460
00:39:55,280 --> 00:40:01,040
happen she'll literally hit stop put it down and we sit down we talk or if I invite her to do things

461
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:05,760
she does them or she invites me to do things or but what's happening with her screen time now is

462
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:13,040
that she's um learning how to self-structure so she's actually been getting these apps that you

463
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:17,520
put in your calendar your schedule and then you follow it and I just want to say something about

464
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:22,080
I've unschooled my daughter her whole life she's never been to school now she's decided she wants

465
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:27,200
to go to public school in the fall it may or may not happen um but so she wants us to try to catch

466
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:32,480
her up so me and her dad and my partner will we're all like picking different things we're

467
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:37,600
teaching her and learning like looking up the curriculums and all that but whenever I go to

468
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:43,200
teach Tori or do it with her and she resists she goes oh I don't want to do this right now I'll

469
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:47,680
say you don't have to do it it's up to you and then she'll think about it and she'll go oh no I

470
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:52,640
really want to do it so she's completely leaning it this is so rare that a child would get to decide

471
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:57,440
if they want to do structured learning or not so this is like a crazy experiment she gets off her

472
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:01,760
screen all the time that's what I'm noticing she puts it down and gets off it for all kinds of reasons

473
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:09,440
and she's decided that and then yes she also puts screen limits on for herself I have so many parents

474
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:19,120
who really want that what you're saying yeah it's there um it's tough in my work because I'm not

475
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:23,200
working directly with them right they're like I'm working with their children so I'm hearing through

476
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:27,440
the kids and then I meet with the parents and I do some support work with the parents when I can

477
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:34,480
what I run into is it's traditional parenting and so um they want me to go work with the kid to

478
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,840
help the kid set the limits and figure that out but really what they're missing in all of that

479
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:46,240
which you really get is that the control and the coercion is undermining what they really want

480
00:41:46,240 --> 00:41:51,360
to instill which is that intrinsic motivation so that's what I just wanted to name when you were

481
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:59,200
saying that really what she's experiencing is I want to adjust my habits so that I can achieve

482
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:03,040
x or I can spend time with friends or I can do whatever it goes hand in hand with the school

483
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:08,720
like she has this goal and now she's trying to navigate what she's currently her day-to-day is

484
00:42:08,720 --> 00:42:14,000
and a lot of my clients their parents will say they're addicted to screens they don't want to

485
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:18,000
change they have no interest in changing there's no intrinsic motivation at all their parents are

486
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:22,240
coming to me saying I need you to change them what we're doing at home isn't working you're the

487
00:42:22,240 --> 00:42:27,040
expert go and change them and that's what they're missing is everything you just said it's almost

488
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:32,880
impossible as a therapist to support any growth in that area if parents aren't open like we always

489
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:37,840
say to talking about the control and the power and the dynamic and the collaboration like that's

490
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:42,560
what needs to shift in the home so it's just kind of me naming that you know parents out there if

491
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:47,760
you're listening like why you've been able to access and unlock the intrinsic motivation in Tori

492
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:52,960
is because you've given her the tools right by stepping back I mean I sort of given her the

493
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:57,920
tools I've just mostly given her the space doesn't I mean that that's how you've given her the tools

494
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:02,240
she's I guess how intrinsic motivation works is like we can't teach it you know you cannot

495
00:43:02,240 --> 00:43:08,160
teach somebody to want to change a habit they have to want to change a habit right so as parents

496
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:12,480
parents don't understand that they really don't understand that that's why like with screen time

497
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,360
then we were talking about food and we're talking about sleep and all these things with limits like

498
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:22,640
you just can't teach somebody to want to change right and therapists know that you know when we

499
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:26,560
work with things like motivational interviewing different modalities that really work with that

500
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:31,440
process of change like the states of change and the theory of change therapists trained in those

501
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:38,000
modalities know that you can't teach somebody to intrinsically motivate towards an external goal

502
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:42,880
that's been placed for them so my team clients who really struggle with screens I'll ask them like

503
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:46,880
what do you think about your screen habits they'll be like yeah it's fine I don't mind it and the

504
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:55,600
thing is I guess I've always and especially since she's five prioritized our relationship yeah over

505
00:43:55,600 --> 00:44:03,120
everything else that's the part where I've guided her in that way so actually that's what's important

506
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:08,240
to her at those moments where she would rather talk to me than be on her screen because she's

507
00:44:08,240 --> 00:44:14,320
learned through experience that gives her something that's better or that she needs right then

508
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:20,480
and she values that even if it's not like you know something that is a preferred activity for

509
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:24,640
example she might turn off her screen and then go to mom because she has a good relationship with mom

510
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:32,640
and that's fun for her so that's like motivating but Tori also has been able to talk to you and

511
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:38,960
explore and learn through you and your relationship because it's been there's been no power struggles

512
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:44,480
I mean maybe here and there but for the most part she's very open to going to you to just talk and

513
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:50,080
explore and learn and be you know next to you like a client and a therapist I think about that a lot

514
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:56,800
in my parenting it's like just openness you're just a container for whatever so when she then you

515
00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:03,040
know wants to think about her own limits when it comes to screens and her own usage you're there to

516
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:08,800
just totally non-judgmentally explore that with her so it's not just about turning off the screen

517
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:14,320
going to hang out with mom because mom's fun and cool it's because mom's there to help me learn

518
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:19,600
about what I really want and I'm learning with through my relationship that is so open with

519
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:26,080
my mother that I don't love the way that screens isolate me maybe or whatever it is maybe she has

520
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:32,960
the freedom to wait she has the freedom to explore that without consequences and judgment yeah and

521
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:40,240
shame and like just any sort of like input I think parents forget how like we always talk about

522
00:45:40,240 --> 00:45:44,160
like the push and pull when parents put input into something I think you mentioned this too when

523
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:47,760
you were saying when she was younger it was like any any hobby she had that you were really into

524
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:50,880
and you'd be like oh I love your singing you should sing more she'd be like nope you know like when

525
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:57,840
we push and pull agenda agenda agenda yeah right parents forget the power that that has I do want

526
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:04,000
to say though that I would have to say the screen has been the number one trigger for me in in every

527
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:11,520
single bit of this journey I felt so so scared that I was doing it wrong I felt shut out and

528
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:16,160
then it would trigger my abandonments that I mean just so many triggers that's what I last night

529
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:20,480
when I was in my parents support group and I was talking about this with the parents people said

530
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:24,960
they felt relieved because they're so they're judging themselves all the time so they would say

531
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:28,960
see their kid on the screen and then the first thing they do is judge themselves and go I'm

532
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:34,000
doing it wrong I will say I feel the same too I get really anxious about screen time we all know

533
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:40,720
the the scary dangers of screen time like we're and because it seems like parents right that's

534
00:46:40,720 --> 00:46:45,360
the biggest thing that I struggled with yeah it's not like it was for you that you felt like you

535
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:50,800
like were letting her do it and so you were like being neglectful or it was damaging oh yeah yeah

536
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:55,680
you talked about a hundred different things oh no her brain I'm fucking up her eyesight I'm

537
00:46:55,680 --> 00:47:00,240
fucking up her brain she's watching things that are destroying her self-esteem she's watching

538
00:47:00,240 --> 00:47:06,000
things that are giving her the worst views on humanity didn't wasn't going to pull it away

539
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:10,720
from her so then I had to just deal with how much it was triggering me all the time my kid was not

540
00:47:10,720 --> 00:47:16,160
for a very long time not willing to negotiate with me about the screens right you just be like

541
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:24,480
yeah do what I want you know for like you know a good three years yeah and so you know and sometimes

542
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:30,080
I for reasons I had to get her off you know which was really you know we have to go do stuff but

543
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:38,400
um but that was the thing she held on to the most I would say it's fine to set loving limits as long

544
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:44,560
as you know that if the power struggles begin and it starts to erode your relationship that you're

545
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:50,400
willing to let that go and and try other things yeah like if you can just say hey we're doing two

546
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:54,560
hours of we're doing two hours of screen time a day do you want one in the morning one at night

547
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:58,640
what do you want oh and they're like yeah great I mean if you can get away with that for three years

548
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:05,840
and that feels good to you great but my kid was not like that yeah yeah I also hope too that we can

549
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:11,280
sort of validate um parents feeling like they're shitty parents and like neglectful and stuff

550
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:16,720
when you have a child who like isn't like that you can feel like I'm thinking about my own experience

551
00:48:16,720 --> 00:48:23,120
like when Aliyah really struggles with a thing and I don't want to upset her so then I feel like I am

552
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:28,880
just letting her do whatever even though I know it's neither here nor there really in the long

553
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:34,800
time can you give an example how we approach screens now and I guess when we originally started

554
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:41,120
this episode it was a few months ago or something so it's kind of like Aliyah um we're gonna go downstairs

555
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:45,440
and get ready to go outside or whatever it is like we're gonna transition so I let her know

556
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:50,720
and I say and then we're gonna have to say bye to the show that she's watching because I always

557
00:48:50,720 --> 00:48:56,400
still she watches TV in the morning when I do her hair and to get off now she's entering 20

558
00:48:56,400 --> 00:49:00,560
months she's 20 months now so it's like really hard for her to transition off of the screen obviously

559
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:05,520
um so I like to use a timer which she is really cool with she really likes the timer and that's

560
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:10,400
been really working but if she's really not into it like she'll tell me she'll be like no no more

561
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:16,160
more I'll ask her if she wants a few more minutes and I will kind of collaborate with her there

562
00:49:16,720 --> 00:49:21,120
and then we usually reach a peaceful solution like she's able to transition and then do the other

563
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:26,560
thing without like crying or a struggle and we'll sing our bye-bye song we always sing to things

564
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:31,360
to help her transition so that's cool that works well for us just that like when we give our kids

565
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:34,960
extra time we let them we whatever we go in her head all right fuck it it's not worth the struggle

566
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:38,480
I'm just gonna like let them have the hour or whatever or the 20 extra minutes or the five or

567
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:43,040
whatever it is I don't know if other listeners can relate but I will definitely go into the fuck

568
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:48,160
I'm I'm such a permissive parent like I'm I'm so neglectful I really need to strong arm it and

569
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:52,480
like just get her to the next things I need a teacher that like she needs to just like when I

570
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:58,000
say it's done it's done and I go into the traditional mindset and I stress myself out and I also feel

571
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:04,000
the shame and the guilt around not being almost like have that compliant kid who just like does

572
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:09,760
what I say that's that's almost like I should just be making her do whatever I want and just

573
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:14,880
she should be not crying about it you know she should just be like a robot going through the day

574
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:19,680
and doing it I just want to say we all parents have that well I have that right yeah why can't my

575
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:24,000
kid just do what I tell them to do I know what's better for them anyway yeah why is it such a

576
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:30,720
fucking battle and all the things that turns into that turns into why can't I just make my child the

577
00:50:30,720 --> 00:50:37,280
person that I have in my head exactly yeah so I guess I wanted to just validate parents if you

578
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:42,160
have that story like I do and then you go into the shame I guess what's the shame voice I'm trying

579
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:46,960
to think what's the part it's kind of like I'm a shitty mom you know like if I was more consistent

580
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:51,760
if I had the right tools I was saying to the vape on a call about this recently like like if I could

581
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:57,680
just brainstorm or collaborate in a different way or you know have a better transition or a more

582
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:02,400
preferred activity or a more creative way to transition her I could prevent her from being

583
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:07,120
upset and I'd get her to do what I want like I just shit all over myself basically in my head

584
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:11,280
and if parents have other shame stories or whatever you feel like you're neglectful they've

585
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:15,040
watched too much tv today I have that one too I'm like oh fuck she's already watched 30 minutes

586
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:19,440
or yesterday she was sick and she watched an hour and I'm like oh my god again I should have never

587
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:24,800
done tv in the first place I'm a terrible mother then I don't know I just want to validate you

588
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:31,040
because collaborating with your kid really is not in alignment with that script like that

589
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:36,000
script tells us that we need to strong arm and be the authority and that collaborating and letting

590
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:43,360
your kid I'm doing air quotes letting your kid get away with extra time just that script wants to

591
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:50,080
do like punch that solution in the face you know that's how I feel I feel like again I'm doing that

592
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:55,120
I have one idea and I have another idea and they're not in alignment with each other

593
00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:59,840
Kara just said like one hour like she was feeling bad about one hour and I just want you to know

594
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:04,480
that my daughter watches the 16 million hours a day so there's you know and my daughter's

595
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:08,400
so much younger right she's only 20 months too so right but they're out and about and like

596
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:13,600
she comes along with everything I do too so that right but that's Kara's that's Kara's quotient and

597
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:18,240
mine is really different and yours is really done and everyone gets to do it their own way yeah and

598
00:52:18,240 --> 00:52:24,640
also uh people have you know the authoritarian mindset that you're pointing to Kara is and in

599
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:29,920
gentle parenting so the whole whole idea of gentle parenting is you would say no I'm counting down from

600
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:33,760
10 and when we get to one we're turning off the screen and then you just turn it off someone

601
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:38,240
was telling a story on tiktok how their child was in the bath and the kid didn't want to get

602
00:52:38,240 --> 00:52:42,720
out of the bath and oh two different parents said the same thing and then they just went and they

603
00:52:42,720 --> 00:52:47,280
just unplugged it they didn't the kid was going down and they just went and they just said okay and

604
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:53,520
they just unplugged it I'm like I would never do that um because it's basically just using your power

605
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:59,760
over your child and giving them the experience of being completely powerless because they didn't feel

606
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:02,960
they didn't want their kids to get upset or they didn't feel they have the skills to

607
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:10,080
do whatever work that out in this whole mindset negotiation is not considered a failure of the

608
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:16,800
parent like being weak it's actually growing growing connection and equalizing the playing

609
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:22,480
field the equalizing the power even with the toddler yeah so if you're willing to go back

610
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:26,800
and forth okay let's try this now let's just okay we'll do five more minutes and go back and forth

611
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:31,120
and even though the judgment will be I'm so weak I'm not being a strong parent you're actually

612
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:35,840
helping your child slowly learn how to feel powerful and have a voice that's that's what we're doing

613
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:51,200
here yes thank you for summarizing that so well I'm at the point where my daughter's 12 and all

614
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:55,600
of the good things about her are coming to life and so I'm in a good really good place to say hey

615
00:53:55,600 --> 00:54:01,840
it's worth the investment yeah yeah well can I ask you something because you know about the bath one

616
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:07,760
like that's obviously um the parent I'm sure when you pull the plug on your kid the parents like well

617
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:11,680
we have to get to bed or you have to get your teeth or whatever it's like they feel like they

618
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:14,960
don't have another option right same with the screens you know people will just be like well

619
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:20,080
I'm turning it off and I'm hiding the remote and like you know I'm just gonna end the activity

620
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:25,600
like what do you say to that when parents come to you in the sport groups are like well worth

621
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:28,960
yeah I don't know what else to do like sometimes I just need to pull the plug on the bath and I

622
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:32,880
just need to turn off the TV because like we just have to we just have to have to have to go somewhere

623
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:37,760
you know it's really cool there's a person in my support group last night you know a lot of

624
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:43,600
these people are just beginning that the very beginning of thinking about non-corson and she

625
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:48,800
said I'm just starting to every time I'm about to say no I stop and go do I have to say no I do that

626
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:53,280
too no so wait a minute I just said no wait you have to get you have to come with me to

627
00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:58,800
run errands and then she realized that her husband was home and that her kid did not have to come

628
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:05,200
with her and she said she's she hasn't really gotten to the point where she doesn't force her kid but

629
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:10,560
she's at least noticing she's at the beginning part of just noticing her wanting to say no and

630
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:16,240
asking herself do I have to I feel like that's a big thing too that's the beginning of this journey

631
00:55:16,240 --> 00:55:21,520
where you start going why do I am why am I asserting my power this way why do I have to is

632
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:27,280
this absolutely necessary so if it is absolutely necessary like I don't know what why would it

633
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:31,920
be absolutely necessary to get your kid out of the bath I'm trying to think because I don't know

634
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:36,240
you're exhausted your other kids crying they're freezing in the bath or you know and you feel

635
00:55:36,240 --> 00:55:41,280
like you absolutely have to I think you know I think usually you don't really have to like you

636
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:46,160
could you could keep negotiating for probably another 20 minutes and it would be fine everybody

637
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:51,680
would live but let's just say you really really had to then you just have to explain it even if

638
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:56,320
it's a little kid I'm so sorry I have to get you out of the tub because I'm tired and your

639
00:55:56,320 --> 00:56:02,240
brother's crying and I'm so sorry honey I wish I didn't have to I know that's not fair I know you're

640
00:56:02,240 --> 00:56:09,120
so you know then yeah but you can't that really sounds like the gentle parent a way so I'm very

641
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:13,280
you're saying that you go through a lot of other steps in non-couraging before you get to that

642
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:20,080
point and it's only when you know you absolutely have no other way like it's it's not just have to

643
00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:25,680
because it's lunchtime or we have to because it's bedtime it's just keeping it's like like I made a

644
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:29,360
post about this on Instagram I said the exact same thing I think I was using get your coat on when

645
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:34,720
it's freezing as an example you just do a million other ways like I made a post about this and I

646
00:56:34,720 --> 00:56:39,360
said the exact same things I said I could pull it up but I deleted Instagram off my phone because

647
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:47,200
I just do that sometimes and it was like you know use playfulness use connection and all these other

648
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:53,200
ways use like all these different approaches that are creative and you know try to make it fun take

649
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:58,000
them outside and see what it's like to be freezing in minus 20 for a few seconds you know I'll do that

650
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:02,720
with Aliyah I lots of times our caregiver Nanny whatever you want to call her she does that with

651
00:57:02,720 --> 00:57:06,160
Aliyah she'll take her out in the morning when we say goodbye because saying goodbye to me is hard

652
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:12,160
she takes her with her without a coat every day and just for a few seconds while they walk away

653
00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:15,920
and we're waving at the door and then she puts her coat on when she's regulated again and they've

654
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:20,480
connected now and they look they look for cats on the way and it's very like it's just a lot less

655
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:24,640
stressful for Aliyah because I think putting the coat on for her is just something she really really

656
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:30,160
hates so I just try to use a million different things and if I'm out of steam and I'm super

657
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:35,040
tired I've been there it's happened a few times I'll just tell her like I'm so sorry you hate to wear

658
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:38,880
your coat and I know you hate it and I'm gonna put it on now and I hate putting on your coat

659
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:44,160
and I wish I didn't have to and I hate winter too and I'll like stop my feet with her and I'll kind

660
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:48,960
of yell with her a little bit like quietly and sometimes she does cry and I just put it on or

661
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:54,320
I'll be able to tell her something while putting it on to distract her I guess to redirect her or

662
00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:58,960
just to connect with her whatever you want to call it I think they understand that we are connecting

663
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:03,200
with them right and that you're actually trying to preserve her sense of self you're actually

664
00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:08,640
trying very very hard see people will say what's the big fucking deal put the kids coat on they'll

665
00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:13,840
cry for a second who the hell cares like children have to learn that you just have to do things and

666
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:21,760
life is hard stop coddling your children um that's the authoritarian party line there and the thing

667
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:27,600
is is that every interaction you have with your child is going to affect their sense of self like

668
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:33,760
so so it seems like nothing to to go through all of that to put on their coat it seems like that's

669
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:40,960
ridiculous but the truth is you're you're um truly respecting that your child is a whole person and

670
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:46,480
all of those teeny tiny little things yeah you're treating them like a person that matters that has

671
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:58,640
a body that has a choice um and you're seeing that and that that's going to be everything to them as they grow up

672
00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:10,240
when my daughter was around five and I decided to really lean hard into non-coercive conscious

673
00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:14,720
parenting I told my daughter I'm not going to control your screen time we're going to start to

674
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:20,640
figure it out together and so she wrote this song spontaneously with my housemate at the time

675
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:28,400
who was a great guitarist um singing about her point of view on video watching and you can just

676
00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:35,200
hear the passion the video is also on my tiktok and she is the cutest thing ever um so this is her

677
00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:42,560
plea for just freedom it's not the best quality so I hope you can hear the words she's saying things

678
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:48,000
like I want video every day you can't stop me from being me

679
01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:16,000
oh

680
01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:26,960
this has been your kids don't suck you can find me

681
01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:35,120
karateadstone at www.karateadstonetherapy.com and on instagram at karateadstonetherapy

682
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:40,720
on my website you'll find links to recommended readings and a link to my reparenting with

683
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:48,880
mindfulness workbook available now on amazon you can find me rithya lee at www.rithya.com

684
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:57,520
that's r-y-t-h-e-a.com there you'll find published books articles and music and parenting videos

685
01:00:57,520 --> 01:01:04,800
also i'm on tiktok at rithya lee on instagram at rithya lee you can book parent mentoring

686
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:10,800
sessions with me through my website and also i have an advice from a loving bitch youtube show

687
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:18,160
that helps people heal self-hatred and that's rithya.com slash advice it is important and

688
01:01:18,160 --> 01:01:25,680
essential to put our voices rithya and kara in a context we are two white cisgendered straight

689
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:30,960
middle-class women living with financial and societal privilege because of this our perspectives

690
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:36,000
are limited and do not reflect the realities of all of our listeners this podcast will feature

691
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:42,400
guests with expertise around conscious parenting who differ in race class abilities sexual orientation

692
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:48,080
and histories from us to broaden the conversation and reflect the lives of as many people as possible

693
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:52,960
25 of the proceeds of this podcast will go to creators of color who have been mentors and

694
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:58,560
influences on our work and inner growth as parents if you like our show please subscribe and stay

695
01:01:58,560 --> 01:02:06,080
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