1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,640 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:07,780 hello players whose characters always have daddy issues 3 00:00:07,780 --> 00:00:12,100 dm's who just can't resist a good old fucking tpk 4 00:00:12,100 --> 00:00:15,480 welcome back to table talk about it 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:17,960 and my name's robert welcome back 6 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:24,240 what are we talking about today robert what we are talking about the 7 00:00:24,240 --> 00:00:27,760 player deaths and how to sunset characters 8 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:32,120 uh... we've had it happen several times at our table actually and everyone has 9 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:36,340 been a very unique experience i think player deaths is one of the more 10 00:00:36,340 --> 00:00:40,360 uh... surreal experiences that happens at a table depending on how into the 11 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:42,120 character everybody is 12 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:43,360 like it's 13 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:47,280 it can be really intense i know madison has cried a handful of times just 14 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:51,760 because the idea motion just with the threat of losing certain characters 15 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:54,760 uh... and it's it's a lot and and 16 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:58,600 i think the reason why i kinda want i want to put an emphasis on both player 17 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,280 deaths and sunsetting is that we've had to do both 18 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:05,280 we have had uh... one one character in particular who has managed to outlive a 19 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:07,760 lot of other characters and 20 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:12,680 more formally sunset it like put out a pastor and just be like jesus christ 21 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:16,360 here's what she's doing with the rest of her existence well all of her friends 22 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:18,280 are either dead or gone 23 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,240 and then we have had others where it's like cool they've been around for four 24 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:23,460 sessions and 25 00:01:23,460 --> 00:01:25,280 now they're dead 26 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:30,680 yeah do we hold the funeral do we do a do we mark a gray if like we might not 27 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:34,120 model of the sound that we did not of the above 28 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:35,400 of not at all 29 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:36,640 not at all 30 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:40,280 not even close uh... but i think to start with player deaths in particular 31 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:44,320 how to handle it as a dm uh... i've talked in previous episodes i say this 32 00:01:44,320 --> 00:01:47,280 every episode because we truly have covered a colossal amount of content 33 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:50,800 this is episode nineteen every episode has been close to an hour 34 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:53,880 some of them an hour and a half some of the two hours so you gotta do something 35 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:58,640 special almost up to twenty hours worth of content uh... so there's a lot of 36 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,200 shit that i can say that we've already talked about 37 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:05,440 but we have mentioned uh... at least i've mentioned in the past the dm in 38 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,880 how in when to fudge numbers 39 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:12,680 there is only so many times in so many ways you can avoid a player death 40 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:16,640 yeah believe me i've done it in the couple episodes ago i talked about 41 00:02:16,640 --> 00:02:20,920 letting a player off the hook three times when number three is the time that 42 00:02:20,920 --> 00:02:22,360 they are supposed to 43 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:24,960 her but i hard and fast permit i when you 44 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:26,200 given you are not 45 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:30,520 down to death saving throws for the third time on one long rest 46 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:32,040 you're dead 47 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:33,200 that's it 48 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,360 same thing if you reach x amount of levels of exhaustion 49 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:39,920 you die there's not that i was a good those it's a big six 50 00:02:39,920 --> 00:02:43,440 there's no the saving throws there's no you get to come back from this no you 51 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:46,120 hit six levels you're gone 52 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:47,240 by by 53 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:51,520 hope somebody's got revivifier some shit is your outie do a quick question 54 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:55,920 before we get further yeah what do you consider death this is this is unrelated 55 00:02:55,920 --> 00:02:59,560 to like the topic episode i don't mean to okay calm the fuck not death in real 56 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:01,120 life okay one question 57 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:05,560 right now okay no i mean like it's off the line to take this i know we had 58 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:07,760 listen to the fucking big brother episode 59 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:11,920 uh... we're not yet for not doing that again i love that i was like i'm so glad 60 00:03:11,920 --> 00:03:15,000 we're gonna record some like lighthearted episodes after that 61 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,280 and we're doing an episode of that what do you know what do you do 62 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,640 what is that i would like to explain the question let me explain the question 63 00:03:21,640 --> 00:03:22,520 let me explain 64 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:23,960 uh... so 65 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:27,240 when i i always have a verse i guess i don't know let me fucking finish 66 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:31,600 speaking maybe maybe um... so whenever 67 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:36,200 i as a player and knocked down uh... past zero and i'm like on death saving 68 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:36,920 throws 69 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:40,280 i consider that dying and i say that i'm dead 70 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:44,960 in the process of dying or i'd i'd just say i'd just say that to me in that 71 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:48,680 there's like a moment because it's a fantasy world where you're like dead 72 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:50,960 but there's things that can happen that you come back to life 73 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:51,960 yeah 74 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,000 but i get corrected at the table 75 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:56,400 when i go i'm dead 76 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,080 i can't do anything you're down 77 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:01,800 i think it's dead because i think you think of things 78 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:07,680 in a very finality like this is it it's either one or ten kind of way and i 79 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:11,600 think everyone else is still very much thinking in like rules of the game 80 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,080 shut up you're not dead you're just down 81 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:20,120 but you also think of combat and role-playing in dnd as like 82 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:24,920 what can i do what if i designed my character to do in when i take things 83 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:27,400 away from you as a player like 84 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:31,120 when you're in a fight and you can do anything or when your spells can solve 85 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,440 the situation or when your checks can't do anything 86 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:38,720 you have the same attitude is when you've called yourself dead 87 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:42,360 that's not where this needed to go but that's what i'm saying like i think that 88 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:46,400 helps answer the question of the players in dms and it really just varies from 89 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:51,120 person to person treat death in character death it's very differently 90 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:55,000 uh... some people see it at least in terms of the game right like is just the 91 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,360 inability to take actions other than saving your own life 92 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:03,960 i think i've used that in the game is once the character has fully passed away 93 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:08,120 like beyond that saving throws once they have failed their third or been 94 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:10,800 shot while they're down which 95 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:12,600 we take knowledge for a second 96 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:16,520 that we exist in a world multiple millions of fantasy worlds where uh... 97 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:17,800 goblins 98 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:19,800 who have been slaughtered 99 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:21,040 by the party 100 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:23,920 uh... would not take two seconds to stick a knife 101 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:27,640 in the barbarian that's just raged through his whole family 102 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:31,400 yeah because we're nice in this universe no we're not 103 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:35,920 no i'll say this you but certainly is not a fucking rock goes through jimmy's 104 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:41,120 head i'm not letting you live this is the fucked up you got me fucked up if 105 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:45,280 you think i'm not stabbing you just because you're down will go after 106 00:05:45,280 --> 00:05:48,880 characters that are down and on death saving throws 107 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:53,280 and i don't want to say that is for me not to i get that but i want you to 108 00:05:53,280 --> 00:05:54,440 acknowledge that is the 109 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,160 evil is shit that you can do 110 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:02,320 it's realistic it literally is not evil literally is not evil is evil you know 111 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:04,160 what i've also been told is evil 112 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:08,280 legendary actions they are in their resistances which one's the which one's 113 00:06:08,280 --> 00:06:09,840 the ultimate evil 114 00:06:09,840 --> 00:06:13,560 but going after players when they're already fucking down 115 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:15,600 that's it there's no world 116 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:16,880 and if 117 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,560 if the big bad that you were fighting not to be bg let's just say that like 118 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,120 you're in a really heavy combat encounter 119 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:24,600 and the kraken 120 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:26,680 is on death saving throws 121 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:28,400 this motherfucker comes up 122 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:29,720 y'all are dead 123 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:31,760 the whole combat encounter 124 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:35,080 he's coming back you'll have no spell slots no health 125 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:36,160 in what world 126 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:40,720 are you as a player gonna tell me that you're gonna leave his health 127 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:42,000 to the faiths 128 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:45,400 i'm gonna tell you what world i'm not tell you what world i'm gonna tell you 129 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,320 i'm gonna tell you i'm gonna fucking tell you i'm gonna fucking tell you you're not 130 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,520 about to get physical in this studio right now ladies and gentlemen not 131 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:52,080 though 132 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:55,080 i'm not though you're not a player 133 00:06:55,080 --> 00:07:02,080 i'm 134 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:03,080 thank you 135 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:04,080 i know 136 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:05,080 you're not a player 137 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:07,080 you are a dm 138 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:10,080 but i have to give us a monochrome of grace 139 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,080 a fucking sliver of it 140 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:14,080 nobody has to 141 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:17,080 no you don't you are owed nothing 142 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:19,080 you were owed nothing 143 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:21,080 i'm going to eat the microphone 144 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,080 but you know that i have given you a monochrome of grace because i let one of your stupid fucking players live 145 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:26,080 three times past what they should have 146 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,080 i didn't ask for that 147 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:33,080 actually you did before in the process of making this world you said can we go a little lighter 148 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:35,080 can we be a little cooler 149 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:40,080 because we were pretty silly and guess what what i did what i did what i did 150 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:44,080 i do every combat encounter every combat encounter 151 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:49,080 i have full opportunities to pick y'all apart because y'all don't fucking work together 152 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:52,080 and guess what no no no don't yell don't yell don't interrupt 153 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:55,080 i have the i have the talking stick 154 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:56,080 guess what 155 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:57,080 i let you live 156 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:58,080 i let you live 157 00:07:58,080 --> 00:07:59,080 bro 158 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:00,080 i've let you live in particular 159 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:01,080 bro 160 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:02,080 many times 161 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:05,080 okay we're not talking about that we're talking about now 162 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:10,080 yeah and in this moment in the most recent campaign i've played i've let you live when i shouldn't have 163 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:12,080 so you can shut the fuck up with that 164 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:14,080 you didn't know what my fucking hit points were when you sniped me 165 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:16,080 so clearly when we're talking about death 166 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,080 that was just a full domestic 167 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:25,080 players it doesn't always mean as much to dm's and so i think as a dm you have to be aware of just how much that's going to 168 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:28,080 impact the player as much as it is the game 169 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:34,080 mechanically damn it's gonna suck when the party has one less fucking blood bag to go around and hit people 170 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:37,080 it is you know what i'm saying no no no no no no no 171 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:38,080 it's my turn 172 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:39,080 it's my turn 173 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:40,080 fuck her 174 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,080 you've been real focused on interrupting me on this particular segment 175 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:45,080 i need you to take a breath 176 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:51,080 it is another thing as a player to lose one of your friends and to have that friend 177 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:52,080 you want a podcast 178 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:56,080 and to have that friend no longer be able to play with you 179 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,080 i think as a dm2 something i consider is 180 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:01,080 if i down this person in this moment 181 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,080 and this player does die 182 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:09,080 what the fuck are they gonna do for the next hour and a half that we have left in this session 183 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:14,080 i can have them do some weird metaphysical talk to jesus thing which i've done with you several times 184 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,080 i can 185 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:17,080 i've talked to so many gods 186 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:23,080 have them fucking play an mpc but like realistically unless you have that backup played what are they gonna do you know 187 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:28,080 there was a video i was watching recently and it was a dm on tiktok 188 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,080 i think i know when this is with the whole like yeah they can 189 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:37,080 the basically show nurse cat of like if you're okay so you've got a session that you have a certain amount of time 190 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:39,080 we're playing for this happened to us recently 191 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:42,080 we had a like a like a four or five hour session planned 192 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:44,080 which is about the time that we normally play 193 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:46,080 we got about two hours deep 194 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:49,080 and there was a moment where robert was like i think we're gonna call it here 195 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:52,080 and like as we were all about to vomit it was a whole thing it was a 196 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:57,080 check out one of our previous episodes where we talk about highs and lows to the table that was a fucking low 197 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:59,080 but this dm was basically saying 198 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,080 when you know that you like are playing for another three hours 199 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:06,080 and your party is trying to break into a house and figure out where this safe is 200 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:09,080 is it in the basement is it in the attic is it in the middle of the room 201 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:13,080 um... and they're spending all this time kind of crafting up with the plan debating where it could be 202 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:15,080 and then he's sitting there going like 203 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,080 do you all not realize that it's just gonna be the opposite of wherever you go 204 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:21,080 because this encounter has to take a certain amount of time 205 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:26,080 uh... and if you go in the basement oops safe is in the attic if you go in the attic safe is in the basement 206 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:30,080 and there was a whole debate in the comments basically being like is this 207 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:32,080 is this how y'all play 208 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:36,080 have you not seen this video i thought you said you knew what this was 209 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:41,080 i thought i see videos about what to do with players after their death and a lot of what i've seen is like 210 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:43,080 give them the ability to be ghosts 211 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:44,080 this was this was 212 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:46,080 where it's like they get to help 213 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:48,080 okay no this was just straight up being like 214 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:53,080 people inspiration have them choose like benefits that the other players at the table get in that combat encounter 215 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:56,080 yeah no this was like no if we have a certain amount of time left to play 216 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,080 oh i'm yanking y'all's fucking chain the whole way 217 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:00,080 yeah 218 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:01,080 uh... and then 219 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:02,080 i've never done that 220 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:03,080 no i'm not even 221 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:05,080 but here's my flaw 222 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:09,080 i write encounters too complex for the amount of time that we have 223 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:16,080 yes the fuck you tell when it's when it's like damn i got a shrodinger's cat my way through this to make sure the session lasts for five hours 224 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:23,080 no i gotta make sure that my toddlers can make sure that the square block goes in the square fucking hole 225 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:26,080 in a time of manner 226 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:27,080 listen 227 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:28,080 that's what it is 228 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:34,080 i'm not i've seen the players at our table legitimately be given a puzzle that was meant for children 229 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:35,080 and stare at it 230 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:36,080 shit you not 231 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:37,080 like a child 232 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:38,080 like a baby 233 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:39,080 for so long 234 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:46,080 and i wasn't i'll take my little like i wasn't there it wasn't me because i was in a different room and i wasn't doing like i wasn't part of the puzzle encounter 235 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:51,080 but god damn they took a long rest in the middle of trying to solve a puzzle 236 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:57,080 they were in the middle of they were supposed to be searching for my character who had gotten kidnapped 237 00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,080 it was just gone 238 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:03,080 and they said let's just hit a long rest because this puzzle is really hard guys 239 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:07,080 and it wasn't like a high stakes puzzle this was like they're in a room 240 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:14,080 there's some chairs you could sit there's a fireplace like and they were just like let's hit that long rest 241 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:17,080 she'll be fine she's gotten out of worse 242 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:21,080 that was one of the craziest experiences that i've seen 243 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:23,080 yeah that was that one was surreal 244 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,080 because i remember sitting there at the table going really you're gonna 245 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,080 you're just gonna take a nap 246 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:31,080 like what's the color again what's the name of the flower again 247 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:35,080 how is it positioned is there anything else in the pot and i'm like y'all 248 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:39,080 dm the player i've given you every piece of information that the book has given me 249 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:42,080 like you all know just as much as i do except for the fucking answer 250 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:47,080 and then i wrote the answer down for you in the way that it was supposed to be spelled out accidentally 251 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:52,080 i gave you i gave you the color i wrote down the names you didn't even need to know the names you just needed to know the letter 252 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:56,080 that was a situation where we did not get another puzzle for the rest of that campaign 253 00:12:56,080 --> 00:13:00,080 nope no more puzzles took up too much goddamn time but anyways back to death 254 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:05,080 so yeah as a dm i think there's a lot to consider when you're about to let a character die 255 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:11,080 what's the player gonna do unless you have a fun little creative mechanic which having them give players advantage on different things 256 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:15,080 and to help action and inspiration like i think there are fun ways that you can have them interact 257 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,080 with their teammates even though they are dead 258 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:22,080 and then of course there's like how is this death gonna affect my universe 259 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:29,080 you know what fucking sucks man when a character dies he's got an awful lot of hooks and plot lines attached to him 260 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,080 and then he just blips out you know what i'm saying 261 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:37,080 it is so unnerving to hear you talking about like death from a dm's perspective of being like 262 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:41,080 man that mechanically fucks everything up because from a player's perspective it is like 263 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:44,080 that is my that's my everything 264 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:48,080 yeah no for me it's i'm thinking very logistically i'm like fuck if i kill 265 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:52,080 if i kill fucking Sebastian 266 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,080 Sebastian's the only one in this encounter that's really able to pull his weight 267 00:13:55,080 --> 00:14:01,080 rest of my players dead i'm thinking he all like like a like a party like y'all have like fucking little heart ticks 268 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:06,080 and and a like an ac as a group like i'm thinking he all mechanically 269 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:12,080 how do i fucking keep you guys alive while also being like fair to the laws of the universe which is you don't kill our friends 270 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:17,080 but that's not how world works Madison 271 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:20,080 yeah Jesus 272 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:27,080 anyways but i mean i also think of it at the emotional level too like how do i 273 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:33,080 i really don't want to see so and so scared to get killed off in this moment it would be heartbreaking they haven't hit the arc i want them to 274 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:39,080 heck they haven't been able to experience a lot of the things with their characters so maybe i give them an advantage 275 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:43,080 maybe i come up with some bullshit mechanic where i'm like you know what you just did this really cool thing 276 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:49,080 you deserve advantage i'll say i'm not like unsatisfying deserve advantage because i don't want you to die in this moment 277 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:54,080 and then you know what hurts even more when you roll to now once back to back yeah i was supposed to deal with that 278 00:14:54,080 --> 00:15:03,080 unsatisfying character depth i think is like a very real thing and we okay and we can't low continue unsatisfying character death is a real thing 279 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:10,080 um and i think it's like that yeah we talked about that a little bit with um with a hole yeah jump in a hole 280 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:14,080 which is something we talked about in one of the previous episodes with a character that died 281 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:20,080 in a very unsatisfying way i mean you just you know he didn't have the keys to the right puzzle and decided that the way to open that 282 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:27,080 puzzle was to uh point a gun at like basically a fucking loop-to-loop and go well i hope that solves the problem 283 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:34,080 yeah you can guess what happened when the bullet came back loop-to-loop um i'll say speaking of this this kind of 284 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:41,080 ties into a point of like my favorite thing from dimension 20 and like what i think got me and a lot of other people like really hooked into it 285 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:48,080 was that that second episode of fantasy high at the end of the the common counter oh my god that shit is so for those of you who have 286 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:56,080 not seen this is a a party of level closing ears yeah don't listen spoiler spoiler that's what it was or if you want an 287 00:15:56,080 --> 00:16:03,080 explanation i'll give it to you now um so he shoots himself i love let me give context this is a group of level one 288 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:10,080 adventures sanity they're fighting these corn creatures two of the party members straight die this is the first common 289 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:18,080 encounter they are all level one this takes place in a fucking high school freshman high schoolers dying in cafeteria to corn 290 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:26,080 yeah like dead ass and so the principal comes in and this was a moment where like brennan has like talked about this after i'll just 291 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:32,080 talk about what he said after um so then the principal comes in and like basically says some bullshit while they're being like do 292 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:38,080 you have like a nurse is there like someone we can get and he says not about like a life for a life he pulls out a fucking gun 293 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:44,080 and shoots the guidance counselor who's in the room in the head and then shoots himself in the head and they fall dead and then the 294 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:50,080 two party members come back to life and everyone goes what the fuck what the fuck did you just do hey what the fuck just 295 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:57,080 happened and brennan has talked about that like on um podcasts and interviews basically being like yeah that was they weren't 296 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:06,080 supposed to die in that encounter but i i guess i i did i should have expected them to climb in the corn's but hole um and 297 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:14,080 and take damage from that and then like spend a long time jumping on tables and like losing hit points that way um and so it 298 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:22,080 was a like fly like straight like random moment decision where he was like i can't let this be how they go out um so we're 299 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:28,080 gonna get creative with it so that was the way he got out of like uh that is the death fucking player death at day what man 300 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:35,080 dmdm player death will force creativity in a fucking pinch man when you give your players every possible advantage to not die and 301 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:41,080 you're like cool at this point if i say you're not dead i just look like a fucking clown yeah um like i'm just making up 302 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:47,080 laws of the universe at this point loser uh huh i'd like it i'd like it that's like if i go cool so that sword that's 303 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:55,080 actually through your forehead through your brain which is required for you to live yeah that doesn't kill you i like you too 304 00:17:55,080 --> 00:18:02,080 much as a person that doesn't kill you actually yeah even though i gave you 16 different times to roll a dice to make sure that it 305 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:10,080 didn't kill you at some point you gotta be like you know what i'm so sorry uh you're you die you die yeah and like what do 306 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:19,080 you do always the feeling is dm is like i'm so sorry you should be hey this shit sucks do you have something you want to 307 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:24,080 send in to make it better criticisms topics you'd like to see discussed or an advertisement you'd like to run maybe you 308 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:35,080 even want to sponsor an episode if so shoot us a message at mc460 at evansville.edu or dms on instagram at crescent magazine 309 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:45,080 or we'll never get better like these fucking guys you're dead your character is no longer playable you've lost your ability to 310 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:55,080 interact with this story yeah the hours and days that you've put into creating this character and the background and the spells 311 00:18:55,080 --> 00:19:05,080 and the weapons and the interactions and the pcs and the NPCs and the plot lines and the hooks all of those just fizzle 312 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:14,080 this is basically something you got pinned to a wall and couldn't make the strength check fuck that fuck that so much 313 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:21,080 um the fact that that's taken out so many of our and that's when you gotta learn how to do a death model log really quick 314 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:26,080 that's what death means to me madison death means death model log that's when you have to go that's when you stand up out of 315 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:35,080 your chair and you like fist in the hand and you're like no you're body language so well and i know the way that he goes 316 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:44,080 about he goes every time i wish there was a fucking camera so you know because he goes there's like a clap of the hands he stands up 317 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:51,080 he like looks at the ground for a little bit and he goes and then he goes so in this moment yeah um what happens i've taken 318 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:58,080 that from a lot of other dm videos that i've watched so because they all started with so so what happens so in this moment 319 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:07,080 so like you're going at it you're throwing fucking hooks it's the version of what had happened was and then yeah and then all of a sudden 320 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:17,080 and it's really tragic accident you dead yeah it's it's never a good feeling at the table no um i think it is also one of those things 321 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:22,080 of i think there's a massive difference between dying in a one shot and dying in a campaign you're dying in one shot it's like oh cool 322 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:28,080 yeah dying in a one shot this doesn't feel as bad as it should and that's actually really nice we were playing we played a pirate one 323 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:35,080 shot and my character i was playing a which granted i was also playing like a reborn character so i had advantage on death saving throws 324 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:45,080 i killed her so many times yeah like it was for it was a bit at that point it was like i had gone for like half the campaign and like 325 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:53,080 had not long rested and or half the session it was like a two day one shot uh and i had like one hit point the whole time and i kept trying 326 00:20:53,080 --> 00:21:03,080 to get out of a situation and like distract someone kept trying to kill herself i just kept killing myself and it worked you know like 327 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:10,080 like people kept bringing her back to life but it was like really fucked up and like that was one of the moments where it was like very funny 328 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:18,080 because i was coming straight off playing a character where my like i every single thing and every action i took as a player was motivated by keeping her alive 329 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:26,080 um and like i was her number one fucking drive yeah i was just living yeah and i think it's something we're like as a player the haters are 330 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:34,080 hating how am i yeah i get how do i live in these conditions when the haters are just they just they just hate so much um and like i think 331 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:41,080 that's something from the players perspective of you view death so differently because like you're not the deal you don't have for me it's like 332 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:49,080 plots and hooks disappear and that sucks it is my whole life yeah and then for players it's like cool the potentially like weeks and months of 333 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:57,080 my time i've spent role playing and back story and time out of game leveling up and picking things that's just gone yeah there's this fucking 334 00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:04,080 tiktok i sent you and i don't know if you saw it but it basically sums up the entire thing in a back or g i i know i know 335 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:11,080 uh but it was a video and it was like a compilation of like the first time somebody played a character into them like being really emotional about their death and it was like 336 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:17,080 a like a little collage and it just kind of looked like a sad edit and then at the end the guy sits up in bed and goes like in a cold sweat and he's like 337 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:26,080 oh wait i'm the dm i did that and then laughs and goes back to bed and that's why i sent it to you motherfucker watch my tiktok 338 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:36,080 yeah 100% did um and like that truly i think is like describing the difference between the two of like for a player you are at like that that character is your everything 339 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:45,080 because like once you're down and i think that's what you were saying of like when you can't make it when you can't do actions that's when you're dead because literally there's nothing else that you can do and you 340 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:55,080 feel you can no longer interact with the world that is how i characterize death and dnd 100% to answer the first question yeah it's like it's i think pro tip also is a dm 341 00:22:55,080 --> 00:23:07,080 and if you're struggling with finding ways to make someone's death um mean something beyond just mechanically which i think was a good point you brought up like damn it's just mechanics like kind of in the moment yes but also 342 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:17,080 in that moment i'm also thinking like fuck how do i make their death mean something because not everybody is gonna have a meaningful death and that's just kind of the shitty reality of playing a fantasy game you know i'm like 343 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:28,080 not every moment is gonna be momentous uh couple of high schoolers dying to corn not didn't didn't really mean a lot truly like there was no everyone all 344 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:39,080 when the whole of me in that it's corn you know it's not like their their deaths then suddenly triggered a massive explosion in the school or so and so death like released a death god that was hosting their body like 345 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:54,080 not everyone's gonna have a super man like that is a 14 year old who just died yep and like Dan that sucks yeah mm-hmm so i think um and this is gonna sound kind of fucked up plan more fucked up than 346 00:23:54,080 --> 00:24:12,080 plan for your players deaths in a way that when they die if they die you don't have to just like half ass monologue damn that sucks g everyone sees it and wow that's fucking that's that's fucked up 347 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:25,080 um jimmy your next initiative what are you gonna do you know like try and have some ideas in your head about like what plots and what hooks are gonna fizzle and which ones are really gonna come into play 348 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:37,080 yeah um like and i don't want to i don't want to give anybody ideas that i'm thinking about doing this but like if Sebastian died tomorrow like in our next session say so like say you all get in a really heavy in combat encountering 349 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:49,080 in DRT trying to help chip or vault or fucking anybody that's just you know wanted at this point and y'all get in a heavy firefight it's significant because it's a combat encounter but in this moment it's just like y'all in DRT taking 350 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:59,080 potshots and Sebastian dies for whatever stupid fucking reason yeah um yeah not a whole lot of meaning in that but i think my immediate response to that would be cool Sebastian's gonna become a martyr for the city 351 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:15,080 yeah Sebastian is going to be like a city for or a symbol for the city to rally around he was already a family that like he already comes from a family that's been affected by DRT in a lot of ways so his death now means that like the city in the world that we're playing in has somebody to rally around 352 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:29,080 which then sort of makes everybody in the party the player playing Sebastian and the other players who are playing the PCs feel a significantly like a lot more of a connection to his death versus just guy died and that sucked 353 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:47,080 um i think to he's got a lot of really important characters that are kind of keeping tabs on him one in particular who i've already expressed in multiple sessions previous is really really passionate about keeping his family safe not a great person but is really on the up and up when it comes to like protecting his family 354 00:25:47,080 --> 00:26:01,080 yeah and i think everybody is very aware at the table is Sebastian died tomorrow to DRT really important guy is gonna wait for a lot like is a hundred percent like that's gonna be the next arc that the city gets to go through is guy on a rampage with a lot of powers pissed off and is going for 355 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:25,080 the DRT yeah and not everybody is gonna have those books net plot hooks naturally set up in advance but i think even just pulling them on your ass in the moment it's gonna be a lot cooler for them looking in retrospect instead of being like damn i died it gives them something to hold on to and i think that's from a player's perspective i think that's one of the most important things you can do when a player dies because it is something that is so dear and so 356 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:51,080 make it meaningful making it have any sort of meeting i think is truly the best thing you can do and i think that's also something that like you as a player deal with like when another player dies how do you handle that and like how do you as a character because i we've played in a campaign where we had two characters die and i'm not proud of this but i shit you not i don't think we ever spoke their names again straight up 357 00:26:51,080 --> 00:27:07,080 well because no one ever knew they died yeah it was like damn they never came back yeah and it was crazy part of it was in the university were playing that kind of happened a lot but so we had literally no way of knowing if they were dead or alive which is also kind of a sad thing because it's like there's no way for us to find out 358 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:29,080 without like doing some like way off course fuck shit yeah that doesn't make sense for the story or for the characters or for the players and it was a world where it was like people come and go and not even in a way of like dying and like all that shit but like literally people go through doors and they don't come back because you never know where the doors are going to go 359 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:49,080 and that's one of the biggest mistakes for your world it's also really important just kind of the same conversation as death like is this one of those worlds where anybody could die at any moment and that's really what's pushing the characters to like preserve their life you're playing in a very raw and intense universe that has very strict rules and laws set in place or are you playing in like 360 00:27:49,080 --> 00:28:05,080 this is the first time we've ever played at a table together and like realistically I'm not throwing anything hard at you guys we've acknowledged it like the behavior and like the vibe of the session in the world is very like las a fair and that is death probably isn't going to mean a whole lot 361 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:25,080 of things that are really going to brush up against it but if you're setting your players in a world where death is like around every corner and it is serious and it is definitive one of the easiest ways to kick that into gears go hey players can you all make backups yeah even if you never plan on having the museum having to make a backup character truly like I've had to do it a couple times is like scary 362 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:41,080 yeah cool that means that whatever we're going into next time like I might need to be able to like switch on a dime and I'm gonna say this is a moment where I'm gonna give an example of like what not to do because like I said I have made plenty of mistakes as a player I think I'm a much better player now than I was when I started out for a litany of reasons 363 00:28:41,080 --> 00:29:02,080 but like like personal growth and then also just like I've learned from things that I've done and I'm like maybe I shouldn't do that I refuse to make a backup character for this one particular campaign we played because I was just so god damn attached to this character and I was just like no I'll kill the rest of the party before I let her die 364 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:20,080 and I just straight up I didn't have one and it was kind of a thing where I was like I also part of me was like I don't want to make a backup character because I want to continue to play my character as if it's real and scary in the moment and I don't have a second chance at life which I think there is some validity to 365 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:39,080 but I think on the whole yeah like have some backup characters um yeah those people where it's like cool I'm just never gonna like I'm just not I'm not gonna do it because it's not it's not fun for anybody else involved you know I'm saying I didn't have any backup characters like written down but I had I would be lying if I said like part of me was very 366 00:29:39,080 --> 00:30:01,080 hesitant to even really make death a certain thing for that character because I was aware that the player in this case you was so beyond attached to this to this PC that like if I killed him I'm I don't want to deal with that you know yeah just the real world consequences of yeah and it's like it's it's one of those things 367 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:24,080 were part of the fear to is like are you gonna be as invested in the next one as you were this one yeah and that was it like also a real a like a real figure I had because I'm someone who gets extremely invested in my characters and I mean like full like a HD hyper fixation for the entire length of the campaign I'm thinking about them all the time I am doodling about them in my notebook 24 seven the idea of death is terrifying 368 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:39,080 yeah yeah sorry playing on your I thought she was going somewhere with that it was nothing to play with I wanted the idea of death is terrifying I'll be honest it was kind of like a pop quiz right 369 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:55,080 right I heard what you said I just thought you were fucking going somewhere with it Jesus no it's just like yeah when you're playing as a player and I think that's one of the things of like as someone who's like in real life terrified of dying and also like gets heavily involved invested in my characters 370 00:30:55,080 --> 00:31:11,080 as a real fucked up shit I'm just not no sorry I for those listening I'm aware of just how intense Madison sphere of death is and like my immediate thought which I'm not gonna say was something fucked up and so I'm not gonna say it I'm not gonna say it 371 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:17,080 that's also something to keep in mind when you're playing with people don't push boundaries and lines that you know they're not comfortable with yeah 372 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:27,080 and as we want to do an episode talking about like consent forms and like check sheet and blood a kid something like inclusive table topping one might say 373 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:41,080 but like the idea of like also knowing the personal lives of your character of your players I think is important is like you know the like do they have the time to make a new character are they gonna have the emotional availability to switch to a new character 374 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:53,080 do they have an entire dice box built for this character and all of their dice and see what I would say though and I would say this to players let me build a world in which your character is allowed to die 375 00:31:53,080 --> 00:32:10,080 yeah I am not planning on killing you and most cases I'm not in this particular campaign I keep having to reiterate that I'm like y'all can be a little more risky because I'm do not have like I don't have it out for you all there's not death around every corner that's not the campaign we're playing in 376 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:17,080 last one anybody could die shit was up for grabs we were playing in a universe for people to walk through doors and that was the new PC 377 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:36,080 yeah I'm not playing in that one now so I'm like y'all can be a little more out there with you don't have to be afraid of me fucking action every session with that being said please get attached please be emotionally invested please do this please do that but do not have it in your mind that this is the only character you will play for this entire campaign ever 378 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:59,080 yeah don't do that because then it's it's a situation where like yes sometimes in my means of DM yeah like it just as to how I like to DM I like to be very serious I like to be very by the book rules that are rules damages the damage dice is the dice but also I'm nice but I'm nice to a fault where if you're that attached to a character no I'm not gonna fucking kill you 379 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:28,080 yeah why would I kill you yeah you care too damn much it's too damn early no just like walk away and call it but like if it's to a point where I just absolutely cannot touch your character now I want to do it more I'm okay I want to do it more the glares and I want to do it more and maybe there's a reason why your character has to go through death saving throws almost every session because I'm ready for them to get the fuck out I'm aware because it's like a plot or a line that I can't touch as a DM and you know I'm not gonna touch your character 380 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:50,080 I'm not gonna touch your character as a DM and you as a player telling me I'm not allowed to touch you as a PC nothing is more infuriating correct it's the hold that I write it or do you yeah who's the enemy here I never said that she couldn't who's the enemy here I never said that you can't tell me that I was like unlike decentralized as fuck to not kill that character 381 00:33:50,080 --> 00:34:14,080 correct uh-huh but for other reasons to um so the second half of this being sunsetting your character um fucking there are so many campaigns that I've heard about and then I've seen on Instagram and tech talk where it's like what do I do with my level 20 characters we are like four years deep into this shit there's nothing they can't do their gods that like there are there one of you wanting to 382 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:42,080 put a risk is like sparring partners like it's how do I write them out of this fucking story yeah um and this is the reason why I want to do player death and sunsetting is they're very much the same thing and the way that players often feel them telling somebody that their player is no longer or that their PC is no longer playable sometimes is taken in the same way a death is because if we go off my definition of death earlier which is the lack of being able to take an action when you sunset a character that character is no longer taking actions there are no more than that 383 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:58,080 part of the party they're out of like they're just gone uh and I think a lot of the same notes follow for death which is trying to make it meaningful is always going to help of course um sometimes too it's a little weird and you have to do it because like we've done said it's several characters 384 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:18,080 yeah and sometimes it's a little weird too it's not always just because that's how you want to end a character story sometimes people just have to dip out of a campaign and you gotta find like a really weird kind of like cool they never come back you know but even when I've had to do that I've tried to make that absence mean something whether it's doing a session with them individually on our own time 385 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,760 or rolling in one of their PCs that cared a lot about them, 386 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,140 that's there to assist the party, 387 00:35:24,140 --> 00:35:27,860 or they're leaving, opens up a door for something else, 388 00:35:27,860 --> 00:35:30,320 it's difficult writing an end to characters 389 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:34,400 that were meant to live for a very, very, very, very, 390 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,460 very long time. 391 00:35:36,460 --> 00:35:37,800 Yeah. 392 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:39,800 And I think that goes back to talking to your players, 393 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:41,240 like what makes the most sense, 394 00:35:41,240 --> 00:35:43,560 what feels the best for them, 395 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,280 being aware of whatever kind of character arc they're in, 396 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:48,720 it probably makes most sense to try and sunset them 397 00:35:48,720 --> 00:35:52,400 at the end, that doesn't mean that like the same session 398 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,280 that they kill the BBG, you end the campaign, 399 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,000 like that's not what that has to be. 400 00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:58,300 I think what it can be, 401 00:35:58,300 --> 00:36:00,640 and what oftentimes feels best is to do a session 402 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,680 or two sessions after the ending of like the big conflict, 403 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:06,920 just to kind of resolve where everybody goes, 404 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:09,620 it's like cool, so now you no longer have a primary motivation 405 00:36:09,620 --> 00:36:12,200 to be in the party, how like, what do you do? 406 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,200 What do you choose to do with your time? 407 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:18,720 You all can stay together, you all can leave, 408 00:36:18,720 --> 00:36:20,760 you all can never talk to each other again, 409 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,280 do you like move into an apartment together? 410 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:25,400 Like, and it's one of those things too, 411 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:27,800 when your conflict is always ongoing 412 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:29,640 and your players are only a small piece of it, 413 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,600 like in this campaign, they're superheroes. 414 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:36,480 There is no universe, the real one that we live in 415 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:38,360 or the fake one that I've made, 416 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:41,360 where their job is going to just be over. 417 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:42,200 Yeah. 418 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,320 It's not how superheroes work, 419 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:46,200 crime doesn't just stop existing 420 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:47,920 unless the planet goes with it. 421 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:49,520 You know what I'm saying? 422 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:53,040 So thinking of how to sunset fucking superheroes, 423 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,440 I'm like, do I break their legs? 424 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:57,840 Do I take away their powers? 425 00:36:57,840 --> 00:36:58,680 What the fuck? 426 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:00,520 Do I make it a really big conflict 427 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,840 that then like makes them not wanna be heroes anymore? 428 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:05,160 You could just have a retire. 429 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:06,000 I understand it's going dark ways, 430 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:07,560 but like how do I retire characters 431 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:09,880 who are in their fucking 20s? 432 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:11,680 Okay, I think it could be a thing of like, 433 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,640 am I gonna time skip like 40 years? 434 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:16,120 I mean, I think if you live in a universe 435 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:18,720 where medical technology is like at a peak, 436 00:37:18,720 --> 00:37:20,360 you're not even done at 60. 437 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:21,760 Okay, I was just gonna say, 438 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:23,360 I think there's a moment where you could have like, 439 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,800 okay, maybe you feel like you're gonna be best needed 440 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,880 in another city and you move into another city 441 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,120 and you try and start like the heroine there 442 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:34,320 and you try to like set up things there 443 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,120 or maybe you realize that your powers, 444 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:39,960 maybe this hero thing isn't for you. 445 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:41,560 Maybe this is a little bit too scary. 446 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:43,120 Maybe this is a little bit too over your head. 447 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,040 And see, the reason I wanted to bring it up as a topic though 448 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:46,800 is I feel like it's really difficult 449 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,720 when you're looking at a party and not just an individual. 450 00:37:49,720 --> 00:37:50,560 Yeah. 451 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,520 You know, it's one thing to go clearly based off 452 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:54,920 all your experiences. 453 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:56,760 I'm picking up what you're putting down as a player. 454 00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:58,200 This shit is not for you. 455 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,480 You go live your normal life, hang up the costume, 456 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:03,800 like spider-man shit in the trash, 457 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,520 famous comic book panel, you're way out of this shit. 458 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:08,720 But when the other four characters are like, 459 00:38:08,720 --> 00:38:12,080 cool, time to form like a legit group, 460 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:13,560 that feels kind of weird. 461 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:14,400 Yeah. 462 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:15,240 You know? 463 00:38:15,240 --> 00:38:17,440 So it's finding the most appropriate way 464 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:19,360 to end your final, final session, 465 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:21,280 which is often what setting a character is. 466 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:23,080 It's that final session when everybody 467 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,240 is there meeting together. 468 00:38:25,240 --> 00:38:27,600 And then asking them what the fuck they wanna do, man. 469 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:28,440 Yeah. 470 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,000 I think that that is, I'm not a DM, 471 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:32,560 but I think from a DM's perspective, 472 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:34,800 I think that's something that I would lean more towards 473 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:36,000 when it comes to sunsetting a character, 474 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,800 is asking a player what they want and what they envision 475 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:40,280 this character's ends to be. 476 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:42,680 And I think that like... 477 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:44,800 I agree, I think that's a moment where as a DM, 478 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,200 you can kind of take your hands off of the wheel. 479 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:51,080 Yeah, because I think like the three big characters that, 480 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:52,920 and I say characters that got sunsetted 481 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,360 as opposed to like something else happened to them. 482 00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:57,760 So they are not sunsetted, 483 00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,000 they are like either turned into something or like... 484 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,040 Yeah, like an ad or some shit like that. 485 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,520 I think one of them was a character named Z 486 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:11,240 who ends up like going back to his homeland 487 00:39:11,240 --> 00:39:12,840 and ends up becoming a god. 488 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,440 Just like, and not in like the level 20 way, 489 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,320 but in like a, there is a like Greek pantheon, 490 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,640 the party killed one of the gods, there was an opening 491 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,320 and he just slides on up there and is like, 492 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:27,560 cool, I'll take it. 493 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,120 And I thought that that was like a very fitting thing 494 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:32,280 for that character. 495 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:33,360 Yeah, definitely. 496 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:35,920 I think in terms of Magnolia, 497 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,240 I really do enjoy the way that she was sunsetted 498 00:39:39,240 --> 00:39:40,960 because I don't think that she was a character, 499 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:43,160 while I was very attached to her and didn't want her to die 500 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:45,080 and it was like a big thing, 501 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:46,560 I still don't think that she was a character 502 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:48,080 who was made to live. 503 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:50,360 It like... 504 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:51,480 And she fucking did. 505 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,120 And I think that that's part of what is cool 506 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:55,960 about sunsetting a character like that is like, 507 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,600 this is a character who was like by no means 508 00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,440 was supposed to have a life of her own. 509 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:04,720 And then to be able to sunset that character 510 00:40:04,720 --> 00:40:06,840 doing something that she wanted to do 511 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:11,120 and just have a basically immortal life 512 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:12,840 is a cool way to sunset there. 513 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:15,840 Those are just two examples. 514 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,640 Looking at like giving your players a good ending 515 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:21,640 versus giving them kind of a shitty one. 516 00:40:22,720 --> 00:40:25,120 Most campaigns you'll play in most campaigns, 517 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,360 you watch there will be some kind of a happy ending 518 00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,000 where it bare minimum, the players achieve the goals. 519 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:31,720 I think we had a lot of negative endings 520 00:40:31,720 --> 00:40:34,680 and are one for players or for events. 521 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:36,240 And that's one of my favorite things about it. 522 00:40:36,240 --> 00:40:38,120 I know I felt kind of shit from the players perspective, 523 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:39,320 but like from the deans perspective, 524 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:40,520 being able to write a story 525 00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:41,800 and have people participate in it 526 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:44,160 where like the good ending was not guaranteed 527 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:45,800 was so fun for me. 528 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,560 Just because it made the consequences and the stakes 529 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:50,800 and the actions feel so much more significant 530 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,680 because victory wasn't guaranteed. 531 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:54,520 It sounds super sad. 532 00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:55,600 It felt very Star Wars, 533 00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,200 just in the terms of like the way it ended 534 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:00,280 where it was like, yeah, we won. 535 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:02,400 But did we really? 536 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:04,040 But like there were a lot of losses 537 00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:07,160 and it really never felt like we were gonna win. 538 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,360 And yeah, we got out by the skin of, 539 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:10,360 which grants it Star Wars, 540 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:11,840 they did not get out by the skin of their teeth, 541 00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:13,640 but like, I mean. 542 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:15,240 They're fucking planets got blown up. 543 00:41:15,240 --> 00:41:17,560 Yeah, it was like there were not, 544 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,400 there were significant losses that we are still feeling 545 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:22,440 and we don't have anywhere to go home to. 546 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:23,400 Yeah. 547 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:26,440 But it's over as opposed to something like Harry Potter 548 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:28,360 where it's like, cool, we defeated Voldemort 549 00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:30,120 and he turned into butterflies 550 00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,080 and now everything's back to normal. 551 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:36,480 Oh, Jesus. 552 00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:39,000 Yeah, I think really it's just feeling out 553 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:40,840 what your campaign calls for. 554 00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:44,280 Is it a story that's been very on the rocks 555 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:46,840 and it's been a hard five victory every step of the way? 556 00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:49,200 Maybe a bittersweet ending makes sense, you know? 557 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:50,640 I think a bittersweet ending is good. 558 00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,320 I don't think that, and this is once again, 559 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:54,600 I'm not a DM. 560 00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:57,320 I don't think that I personally, 561 00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,800 if I ever DM'd would leave a campaign on a bad note. 562 00:42:01,720 --> 00:42:04,800 Just because I don't like the idea of like, 563 00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:06,000 I think bittersweet is good. 564 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:09,400 I think like taking your losses is very real. 565 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:11,480 Like a character having to sacrifice himself 566 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:12,800 and like the final encounter. 567 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:14,880 But that's still like, that's like the bittersweet 568 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,920 and that's like that versus like, well, you guys lost. 569 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,800 I don't know what other way to tell you guys lost. 570 00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:23,200 The city burns to the ground. 571 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:24,240 It's funny you bring that up. 572 00:42:24,240 --> 00:42:26,480 So I've talked about a couple of different times. 573 00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:28,160 I really wanna do Elastivus campaign. 574 00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:29,960 And I think that's probably the only campaign 575 00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:32,080 that I will ever DM for where that is going 576 00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:34,120 to be a real potential. 577 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:34,960 Yeah. 578 00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:36,760 Like I think this is gonna be one of those deals 579 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:38,960 where everyone has one character, there is no backup. 580 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:41,760 It is very intense and it's very serious. 581 00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:43,720 And there's like a real chance that like the story ends 582 00:42:43,720 --> 00:42:44,560 with the story ends. 583 00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:45,880 Like we could get three sessions deep. 584 00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:47,360 We could make it 10 sessions deep. 585 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:49,240 Like it's as long as you all can survive. 586 00:42:49,240 --> 00:42:50,560 Like that's the theme of the campaign. 587 00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:55,240 But again, that's the theme of the campaign is survival. 588 00:42:55,240 --> 00:42:57,720 As opposed to being a fucking superhero. 589 00:42:57,720 --> 00:43:00,920 Like yeah, death is a real thing you flirt with 590 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:02,400 because you're a powered individual. 591 00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,520 But like also superheroes always save the day. 592 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:07,040 So it's kinda like, you know. 593 00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:08,800 There's a certain level of security there. 594 00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:09,640 Yeah. 595 00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:11,800 At least when you're playing like level five characters. 596 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:12,640 Yeah. 597 00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:13,480 Yeah, yeah. 598 00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:17,920 And everyone spent a lot of time like coming up with stuff. 599 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:19,600 Just kind of one of those things where like, 600 00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:21,160 you gotta feel what's best. 601 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:25,360 What's what's suit your players, what suits your campaign. 602 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:27,360 And yeah, like sometimes sunsetting and deaths 603 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:29,440 are very similar in the sense that like, 604 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:32,760 one of the sunsets that we've had happen in particular 605 00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:35,560 was it was bittersweet in that it wasn't really a victory. 606 00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:37,960 It was just like, cool, we survived another day. 607 00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:43,480 Character named Yifan basically like fulfilled 608 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:45,160 his purpose in the campaign. 609 00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:48,120 I sent all of the other players out of the room, 610 00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:49,360 did a one on one with him. 611 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:50,920 I still haven't told people what happened with that. 612 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,200 Which is I think that's kinda fun. 613 00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:54,560 I was really hoping you were gonna say no. 614 00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:57,280 I had that player also like swear to secrecy 615 00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:58,760 that he would never tell the other players 616 00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:01,560 what happened either until I told him that it was cool. 617 00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:03,760 But he had a very bittersweet ending 618 00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:06,240 and that everyone in the party forgot who he was. 619 00:44:06,240 --> 00:44:09,920 And then I like monologue them through their memory, 620 00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:12,600 filling the holes in the blanks with other people 621 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,280 or different characters and different actions. 622 00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:17,240 And they lived, that was the end of the first like, 623 00:44:17,240 --> 00:44:20,760 of the first sort of session episode of the campaign. 624 00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:21,840 But it was bittersweet. 625 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:23,280 Like nothing was really gained from that. 626 00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:26,440 It was just like, we lived, we survived. 627 00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:27,920 Sometimes that's all it can be. 628 00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:28,760 And I think it's also fun. 629 00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:31,000 It doesn't always have to be something super special. 630 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,400 I like to leave them, I like them to be left 631 00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:34,560 on a little bit of a cliffhanger. 632 00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:35,840 Not in a way where you like, 633 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:37,960 ever have to actually revisit them. 634 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:40,080 But like, just there's a possibility. 635 00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,800 It gives the possibility of the world. 636 00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,160 Yeah, of like, if something were to happen, 637 00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:47,000 you could do like a one shot in that universe or something. 638 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:50,160 Or even being like, lets the world feel like 639 00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:51,440 it's still living. 640 00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:53,880 Like, even though you've stepped away from it, 641 00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:55,600 that's still a world that is turning 642 00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:58,160 and that has conflict and things that are going on. 643 00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:00,440 Like in this one, I've totally thought about giving you guys 644 00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:02,800 a one shot where you all play the millennial group. 645 00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:03,640 That'd be fun. 646 00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:05,360 Like in their up and coming days, 647 00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:07,560 like on their first like couple of big jobs, 648 00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:09,160 everybody being one of those characters, 649 00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:11,400 I think would be so fucking fun. 650 00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:13,600 But like things like that, setting up groups, 651 00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:17,120 groups of characters like, leave it off on a cliff note, 652 00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:17,960 man. 653 00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:19,280 So that way you have a universe that you can come back 654 00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:21,760 and revisit and it doesn't have to be this big final thing. 655 00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:22,600 Yeah. 656 00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:23,420 Like this is. 657 00:45:23,420 --> 00:45:24,760 Thanks for listening to another episode of Table Talk. 658 00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:26,320 You did this so interesting. 659 00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:28,280 By the time that you hear this, 660 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:29,880 it will be past the New Year. 661 00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:31,640 So I hope everybody had a good New Year. 662 00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:33,160 Everyone had a good Christmas. 663 00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:35,320 If you celebrate that or whatever the fuck else you celebrate. 664 00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:36,320 Happy holidays. 665 00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:37,160 Happy holidays. 666 00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:38,560 That's what you say. 667 00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:40,160 Thanks for listening to another episode of Table Talk. 668 00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:42,160 We will talk to you all later. 669 00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:49,160 Bye.