hello players whose characters always have daddy issues
dm's who just can't resist a good old fucking tpk
welcome back to table talk about it
and my name's robert welcome back
what are we talking about today robert what we are talking about the
player deaths and how to sunset characters
uh... we've had it happen several times at our table actually and everyone has
been a very unique experience i think player deaths is one of the more
uh... surreal experiences that happens at a table depending on how into the
character everybody is
like it's
it can be really intense i know madison has cried a handful of times just
because the idea motion just with the threat of losing certain characters
uh... and it's it's a lot and and
i think the reason why i kinda want i want to put an emphasis on both player
deaths and sunsetting is that we've had to do both
we have had uh... one one character in particular who has managed to outlive a
lot of other characters and
more formally sunset it like put out a pastor and just be like jesus christ
here's what she's doing with the rest of her existence well all of her friends
are either dead or gone
and then we have had others where it's like cool they've been around for four
sessions and
now they're dead
yeah do we hold the funeral do we do a do we mark a gray if like we might not
model of the sound that we did not of the above
of not at all
not at all
not even close uh... but i think to start with player deaths in particular
how to handle it as a dm uh... i've talked in previous episodes i say this
every episode because we truly have covered a colossal amount of content
this is episode nineteen every episode has been close to an hour
some of them an hour and a half some of the two hours so you gotta do something
special almost up to twenty hours worth of content uh... so there's a lot of
shit that i can say that we've already talked about
but we have mentioned uh... at least i've mentioned in the past the dm in
how in when to fudge numbers
there is only so many times in so many ways you can avoid a player death
yeah believe me i've done it in the couple episodes ago i talked about
letting a player off the hook three times when number three is the time that
they are supposed to
her but i hard and fast permit i when you
given you are not
down to death saving throws for the third time on one long rest
you're dead
that's it
same thing if you reach x amount of levels of exhaustion
you die there's not that i was a good those it's a big six
there's no the saving throws there's no you get to come back from this no you
hit six levels you're gone
by by
hope somebody's got revivifier some shit is your outie do a quick question
before we get further yeah what do you consider death this is this is unrelated
to like the topic episode i don't mean to okay calm the fuck not death in real
life okay one question
right now okay no i mean like it's off the line to take this i know we had
listen to the fucking big brother episode
uh... we're not yet for not doing that again i love that i was like i'm so glad
we're gonna record some like lighthearted episodes after that
and we're doing an episode of that what do you know what do you do
what is that i would like to explain the question let me explain the question
let me explain
uh... so
when i i always have a verse i guess i don't know let me fucking finish
speaking maybe maybe um... so whenever
i as a player and knocked down uh... past zero and i'm like on death saving
throws
i consider that dying and i say that i'm dead
in the process of dying or i'd i'd just say i'd just say that to me in that
there's like a moment because it's a fantasy world where you're like dead
but there's things that can happen that you come back to life
yeah
but i get corrected at the table
when i go i'm dead
i can't do anything you're down
i think it's dead because i think you think of things
in a very finality like this is it it's either one or ten kind of way and i
think everyone else is still very much thinking in like rules of the game
shut up you're not dead you're just down
but you also think of combat and role-playing in dnd as like
what can i do what if i designed my character to do in when i take things
away from you as a player like
when you're in a fight and you can do anything or when your spells can solve
the situation or when your checks can't do anything
you have the same attitude is when you've called yourself dead
that's not where this needed to go but that's what i'm saying like i think that
helps answer the question of the players in dms and it really just varies from
person to person treat death in character death it's very differently
uh... some people see it at least in terms of the game right like is just the
inability to take actions other than saving your own life
i think i've used that in the game is once the character has fully passed away
like beyond that saving throws once they have failed their third or been
shot while they're down which
we take knowledge for a second
that we exist in a world multiple millions of fantasy worlds where uh...
goblins
who have been slaughtered
by the party
uh... would not take two seconds to stick a knife
in the barbarian that's just raged through his whole family
yeah because we're nice in this universe no we're not
no i'll say this you but certainly is not a fucking rock goes through jimmy's
head i'm not letting you live this is the fucked up you got me fucked up if
you think i'm not stabbing you just because you're down will go after
characters that are down and on death saving throws
and i don't want to say that is for me not to i get that but i want you to
acknowledge that is the
evil is shit that you can do
it's realistic it literally is not evil literally is not evil is evil you know
what i've also been told is evil
legendary actions they are in their resistances which one's the which one's
the ultimate evil
but going after players when they're already fucking down
that's it there's no world
and if
if the big bad that you were fighting not to be bg let's just say that like
you're in a really heavy combat encounter
and the kraken
is on death saving throws
this motherfucker comes up
y'all are dead
the whole combat encounter
he's coming back you'll have no spell slots no health
in what world
are you as a player gonna tell me that you're gonna leave his health
to the faiths
i'm gonna tell you what world i'm not tell you what world i'm gonna tell you
i'm gonna tell you i'm gonna fucking tell you i'm gonna fucking tell you you're not
about to get physical in this studio right now ladies and gentlemen not
though
i'm not though you're not a player
i'm
thank you
i know
you're not a player
you are a dm
but i have to give us a monochrome of grace
a fucking sliver of it
nobody has to
no you don't you are owed nothing
you were owed nothing
i'm going to eat the microphone
but you know that i have given you a monochrome of grace because i let one of your stupid fucking players live
three times past what they should have
i didn't ask for that
actually you did before in the process of making this world you said can we go a little lighter
can we be a little cooler
because we were pretty silly and guess what what i did what i did what i did
i do every combat encounter every combat encounter
i have full opportunities to pick y'all apart because y'all don't fucking work together
and guess what no no no don't yell don't yell don't interrupt
i have the i have the talking stick
guess what
i let you live
bro
i've let you live in particular
bro
many times
okay we're not talking about that we're talking about now
yeah and in this moment in the most recent campaign i've played i've let you live when i shouldn't have
so you can shut the fuck up with that
you didn't know what my fucking hit points were when you sniped me
so clearly when we're talking about death
that was just a full domestic
players it doesn't always mean as much to dm's and so i think as a dm you have to be aware of just how much that's going to
impact the player as much as it is the game
mechanically damn it's gonna suck when the party has one less fucking blood bag to go around and hit people
it is you know what i'm saying no no no no no no no
it's my turn
fuck her
you've been real focused on interrupting me on this particular segment
i need you to take a breath
it is another thing as a player to lose one of your friends and to have that friend
you want a podcast
and to have that friend no longer be able to play with you
i think as a dm2 something i consider is
if i down this person in this moment
and this player does die
what the fuck are they gonna do for the next hour and a half that we have left in this session
i can have them do some weird metaphysical talk to jesus thing which i've done with you several times
i can
i've talked to so many gods
have them fucking play an mpc but like realistically unless you have that backup played what are they gonna do you know
there was a video i was watching recently and it was a dm on tiktok
i think i know when this is with the whole like yeah they can
the basically show nurse cat of like if you're okay so you've got a session that you have a certain amount of time
we're playing for this happened to us recently
we had a like a like a four or five hour session planned
which is about the time that we normally play
we got about two hours deep
and there was a moment where robert was like i think we're gonna call it here
and like as we were all about to vomit it was a whole thing it was a
check out one of our previous episodes where we talk about highs and lows to the table that was a fucking low
but this dm was basically saying
when you know that you like are playing for another three hours
and your party is trying to break into a house and figure out where this safe is
is it in the basement is it in the attic is it in the middle of the room
um... and they're spending all this time kind of crafting up with the plan debating where it could be
and then he's sitting there going like
do you all not realize that it's just gonna be the opposite of wherever you go
because this encounter has to take a certain amount of time
uh... and if you go in the basement oops safe is in the attic if you go in the attic safe is in the basement
and there was a whole debate in the comments basically being like is this
is this how y'all play
have you not seen this video i thought you said you knew what this was
i thought i see videos about what to do with players after their death and a lot of what i've seen is like
give them the ability to be ghosts
this was this was
where it's like they get to help
okay no this was just straight up being like
people inspiration have them choose like benefits that the other players at the table get in that combat encounter
yeah no this was like no if we have a certain amount of time left to play
oh i'm yanking y'all's fucking chain the whole way
yeah
uh... and then
i've never done that
no i'm not even
but here's my flaw
i write encounters too complex for the amount of time that we have
yes the fuck you tell when it's when it's like damn i got a shrodinger's cat my way through this to make sure the session lasts for five hours
no i gotta make sure that my toddlers can make sure that the square block goes in the square fucking hole
in a time of manner
listen
that's what it is
i'm not i've seen the players at our table legitimately be given a puzzle that was meant for children
and stare at it
shit you not
like a child
like a baby
for so long
and i wasn't i'll take my little like i wasn't there it wasn't me because i was in a different room and i wasn't doing like i wasn't part of the puzzle encounter
but god damn they took a long rest in the middle of trying to solve a puzzle
they were in the middle of they were supposed to be searching for my character who had gotten kidnapped
it was just gone
and they said let's just hit a long rest because this puzzle is really hard guys
and it wasn't like a high stakes puzzle this was like they're in a room
there's some chairs you could sit there's a fireplace like and they were just like let's hit that long rest
she'll be fine she's gotten out of worse
that was one of the craziest experiences that i've seen
yeah that was that one was surreal
because i remember sitting there at the table going really you're gonna
you're just gonna take a nap
like what's the color again what's the name of the flower again
how is it positioned is there anything else in the pot and i'm like y'all
dm the player i've given you every piece of information that the book has given me
like you all know just as much as i do except for the fucking answer
and then i wrote the answer down for you in the way that it was supposed to be spelled out accidentally
i gave you i gave you the color i wrote down the names you didn't even need to know the names you just needed to know the letter
that was a situation where we did not get another puzzle for the rest of that campaign
nope no more puzzles took up too much goddamn time but anyways back to death
so yeah as a dm i think there's a lot to consider when you're about to let a character die
what's the player gonna do unless you have a fun little creative mechanic which having them give players advantage on different things
and to help action and inspiration like i think there are fun ways that you can have them interact
with their teammates even though they are dead
and then of course there's like how is this death gonna affect my universe
you know what fucking sucks man when a character dies he's got an awful lot of hooks and plot lines attached to him
and then he just blips out you know what i'm saying
it is so unnerving to hear you talking about like death from a dm's perspective of being like
man that mechanically fucks everything up because from a player's perspective it is like
that is my that's my everything
yeah no for me it's i'm thinking very logistically i'm like fuck if i kill
if i kill fucking Sebastian
Sebastian's the only one in this encounter that's really able to pull his weight
rest of my players dead i'm thinking he all like like a like a party like y'all have like fucking little heart ticks
and and a like an ac as a group like i'm thinking he all mechanically
how do i fucking keep you guys alive while also being like fair to the laws of the universe which is you don't kill our friends
but that's not how world works Madison
yeah Jesus
anyways but i mean i also think of it at the emotional level too like how do i
i really don't want to see so and so scared to get killed off in this moment it would be heartbreaking they haven't hit the arc i want them to
heck they haven't been able to experience a lot of the things with their characters so maybe i give them an advantage
maybe i come up with some bullshit mechanic where i'm like you know what you just did this really cool thing
you deserve advantage i'll say i'm not like unsatisfying deserve advantage because i don't want you to die in this moment
and then you know what hurts even more when you roll to now once back to back yeah i was supposed to deal with that
unsatisfying character depth i think is like a very real thing and we okay and we can't low continue unsatisfying character death is a real thing
um and i think it's like that yeah we talked about that a little bit with um with a hole yeah jump in a hole
which is something we talked about in one of the previous episodes with a character that died
in a very unsatisfying way i mean you just you know he didn't have the keys to the right puzzle and decided that the way to open that
puzzle was to uh point a gun at like basically a fucking loop-to-loop and go well i hope that solves the problem
yeah you can guess what happened when the bullet came back loop-to-loop um i'll say speaking of this this kind of
ties into a point of like my favorite thing from dimension 20 and like what i think got me and a lot of other people like really hooked into it
was that that second episode of fantasy high at the end of the the common counter oh my god that shit is so for those of you who have
not seen this is a a party of level closing ears yeah don't listen spoiler spoiler that's what it was or if you want an
explanation i'll give it to you now um so he shoots himself i love let me give context this is a group of level one
adventures sanity they're fighting these corn creatures two of the party members straight die this is the first common
encounter they are all level one this takes place in a fucking high school freshman high schoolers dying in cafeteria to corn
yeah like dead ass and so the principal comes in and this was a moment where like brennan has like talked about this after i'll just
talk about what he said after um so then the principal comes in and like basically says some bullshit while they're being like do
you have like a nurse is there like someone we can get and he says not about like a life for a life he pulls out a fucking gun
and shoots the guidance counselor who's in the room in the head and then shoots himself in the head and they fall dead and then the
two party members come back to life and everyone goes what the fuck what the fuck did you just do hey what the fuck just
happened and brennan has talked about that like on um podcasts and interviews basically being like yeah that was they weren't
supposed to die in that encounter but i i guess i i did i should have expected them to climb in the corn's but hole um and
and take damage from that and then like spend a long time jumping on tables and like losing hit points that way um and so it
was a like fly like straight like random moment decision where he was like i can't let this be how they go out um so we're
gonna get creative with it so that was the way he got out of like uh that is the death fucking player death at day what man
dmdm player death will force creativity in a fucking pinch man when you give your players every possible advantage to not die and
you're like cool at this point if i say you're not dead i just look like a fucking clown yeah um like i'm just making up
laws of the universe at this point loser uh huh i'd like it i'd like it that's like if i go cool so that sword that's
actually through your forehead through your brain which is required for you to live yeah that doesn't kill you i like you too
much as a person that doesn't kill you actually yeah even though i gave you 16 different times to roll a dice to make sure that it
didn't kill you at some point you gotta be like you know what i'm so sorry uh you're you die you die yeah and like what do
you do always the feeling is dm is like i'm so sorry you should be hey this shit sucks do you have something you want to
send in to make it better criticisms topics you'd like to see discussed or an advertisement you'd like to run maybe you
even want to sponsor an episode if so shoot us a message at mc460 at evansville.edu or dms on instagram at crescent magazine
or we'll never get better like these fucking guys you're dead your character is no longer playable you've lost your ability to
interact with this story yeah the hours and days that you've put into creating this character and the background and the spells
and the weapons and the interactions and the pcs and the NPCs and the plot lines and the hooks all of those just fizzle
this is basically something you got pinned to a wall and couldn't make the strength check fuck that fuck that so much
um the fact that that's taken out so many of our and that's when you gotta learn how to do a death model log really quick
that's what death means to me madison death means death model log that's when you have to go that's when you stand up out of
your chair and you like fist in the hand and you're like no you're body language so well and i know the way that he goes
about he goes every time i wish there was a fucking camera so you know because he goes there's like a clap of the hands he stands up
he like looks at the ground for a little bit and he goes and then he goes so in this moment yeah um what happens i've taken
that from a lot of other dm videos that i've watched so because they all started with so so what happens so in this moment
so like you're going at it you're throwing fucking hooks it's the version of what had happened was and then yeah and then all of a sudden
and it's really tragic accident you dead yeah it's it's never a good feeling at the table no um i think it is also one of those things
of i think there's a massive difference between dying in a one shot and dying in a campaign you're dying in one shot it's like oh cool
yeah dying in a one shot this doesn't feel as bad as it should and that's actually really nice we were playing we played a pirate one
shot and my character i was playing a which granted i was also playing like a reborn character so i had advantage on death saving throws
i killed her so many times yeah like it was for it was a bit at that point it was like i had gone for like half the campaign and like
had not long rested and or half the session it was like a two day one shot uh and i had like one hit point the whole time and i kept trying
to get out of a situation and like distract someone kept trying to kill herself i just kept killing myself and it worked you know like
like people kept bringing her back to life but it was like really fucked up and like that was one of the moments where it was like very funny
because i was coming straight off playing a character where my like i every single thing and every action i took as a player was motivated by keeping her alive
um and like i was her number one fucking drive yeah i was just living yeah and i think it's something we're like as a player the haters are
hating how am i yeah i get how do i live in these conditions when the haters are just they just they just hate so much um and like i think
that's something from the players perspective of you view death so differently because like you're not the deal you don't have for me it's like
plots and hooks disappear and that sucks it is my whole life yeah and then for players it's like cool the potentially like weeks and months of
my time i've spent role playing and back story and time out of game leveling up and picking things that's just gone yeah there's this fucking
tiktok i sent you and i don't know if you saw it but it basically sums up the entire thing in a back or g i i know i know
uh but it was a video and it was like a compilation of like the first time somebody played a character into them like being really emotional about their death and it was like
a like a little collage and it just kind of looked like a sad edit and then at the end the guy sits up in bed and goes like in a cold sweat and he's like
oh wait i'm the dm i did that and then laughs and goes back to bed and that's why i sent it to you motherfucker watch my tiktok
yeah 100% did um and like that truly i think is like describing the difference between the two of like for a player you are at like that that character is your everything
because like once you're down and i think that's what you were saying of like when you can't make it when you can't do actions that's when you're dead because literally there's nothing else that you can do and you
feel you can no longer interact with the world that is how i characterize death and dnd 100% to answer the first question yeah it's like it's i think pro tip also is a dm
and if you're struggling with finding ways to make someone's death um mean something beyond just mechanically which i think was a good point you brought up like damn it's just mechanics like kind of in the moment yes but also
in that moment i'm also thinking like fuck how do i make their death mean something because not everybody is gonna have a meaningful death and that's just kind of the shitty reality of playing a fantasy game you know i'm like
not every moment is gonna be momentous uh couple of high schoolers dying to corn not didn't didn't really mean a lot truly like there was no everyone all
when the whole of me in that it's corn you know it's not like their their deaths then suddenly triggered a massive explosion in the school or so and so death like released a death god that was hosting their body like
not everyone's gonna have a super man like that is a 14 year old who just died yep and like Dan that sucks yeah mm-hmm so i think um and this is gonna sound kind of fucked up plan more fucked up than
plan for your players deaths in a way that when they die if they die you don't have to just like half ass monologue damn that sucks g everyone sees it and wow that's fucking that's that's fucked up
um jimmy your next initiative what are you gonna do you know like try and have some ideas in your head about like what plots and what hooks are gonna fizzle and which ones are really gonna come into play
yeah um like and i don't want to i don't want to give anybody ideas that i'm thinking about doing this but like if Sebastian died tomorrow like in our next session say so like say you all get in a really heavy in combat encountering
in DRT trying to help chip or vault or fucking anybody that's just you know wanted at this point and y'all get in a heavy firefight it's significant because it's a combat encounter but in this moment it's just like y'all in DRT taking
potshots and Sebastian dies for whatever stupid fucking reason yeah um yeah not a whole lot of meaning in that but i think my immediate response to that would be cool Sebastian's gonna become a martyr for the city
yeah Sebastian is going to be like a city for or a symbol for the city to rally around he was already a family that like he already comes from a family that's been affected by DRT in a lot of ways so his death now means that like the city in the world that we're playing in has somebody to rally around
which then sort of makes everybody in the party the player playing Sebastian and the other players who are playing the PCs feel a significantly like a lot more of a connection to his death versus just guy died and that sucked
um i think to he's got a lot of really important characters that are kind of keeping tabs on him one in particular who i've already expressed in multiple sessions previous is really really passionate about keeping his family safe not a great person but is really on the up and up when it comes to like protecting his family
yeah and i think everybody is very aware at the table is Sebastian died tomorrow to DRT really important guy is gonna wait for a lot like is a hundred percent like that's gonna be the next arc that the city gets to go through is guy on a rampage with a lot of powers pissed off and is going for
the DRT yeah and not everybody is gonna have those books net plot hooks naturally set up in advance but i think even just pulling them on your ass in the moment it's gonna be a lot cooler for them looking in retrospect instead of being like damn i died it gives them something to hold on to and i think that's from a player's perspective i think that's one of the most important things you can do when a player dies because it is something that is so dear and so
make it meaningful making it have any sort of meeting i think is truly the best thing you can do and i think that's also something that like you as a player deal with like when another player dies how do you handle that and like how do you as a character because i we've played in a campaign where we had two characters die and i'm not proud of this but i shit you not i don't think we ever spoke their names again straight up
well because no one ever knew they died yeah it was like damn they never came back yeah and it was crazy part of it was in the university were playing that kind of happened a lot but so we had literally no way of knowing if they were dead or alive which is also kind of a sad thing because it's like there's no way for us to find out
without like doing some like way off course fuck shit yeah that doesn't make sense for the story or for the characters or for the players and it was a world where it was like people come and go and not even in a way of like dying and like all that shit but like literally people go through doors and they don't come back because you never know where the doors are going to go
and that's one of the biggest mistakes for your world it's also really important just kind of the same conversation as death like is this one of those worlds where anybody could die at any moment and that's really what's pushing the characters to like preserve their life you're playing in a very raw and intense universe that has very strict rules and laws set in place or are you playing in like
this is the first time we've ever played at a table together and like realistically I'm not throwing anything hard at you guys we've acknowledged it like the behavior and like the vibe of the session in the world is very like las a fair and that is death probably isn't going to mean a whole lot
of things that are really going to brush up against it but if you're setting your players in a world where death is like around every corner and it is serious and it is definitive one of the easiest ways to kick that into gears go hey players can you all make backups yeah even if you never plan on having the museum having to make a backup character truly like I've had to do it a couple times is like scary
yeah cool that means that whatever we're going into next time like I might need to be able to like switch on a dime and I'm gonna say this is a moment where I'm gonna give an example of like what not to do because like I said I have made plenty of mistakes as a player I think I'm a much better player now than I was when I started out for a litany of reasons
but like like personal growth and then also just like I've learned from things that I've done and I'm like maybe I shouldn't do that I refuse to make a backup character for this one particular campaign we played because I was just so god damn attached to this character and I was just like no I'll kill the rest of the party before I let her die
and I just straight up I didn't have one and it was kind of a thing where I was like I also part of me was like I don't want to make a backup character because I want to continue to play my character as if it's real and scary in the moment and I don't have a second chance at life which I think there is some validity to
but I think on the whole yeah like have some backup characters um yeah those people where it's like cool I'm just never gonna like I'm just not I'm not gonna do it because it's not it's not fun for anybody else involved you know I'm saying I didn't have any backup characters like written down but I had I would be lying if I said like part of me was very
hesitant to even really make death a certain thing for that character because I was aware that the player in this case you was so beyond attached to this to this PC that like if I killed him I'm I don't want to deal with that you know yeah just the real world consequences of yeah and it's like it's it's one of those things
were part of the fear to is like are you gonna be as invested in the next one as you were this one yeah and that was it like also a real a like a real figure I had because I'm someone who gets extremely invested in my characters and I mean like full like a HD hyper fixation for the entire length of the campaign I'm thinking about them all the time I am doodling about them in my notebook 24 seven the idea of death is terrifying
yeah yeah sorry playing on your I thought she was going somewhere with that it was nothing to play with I wanted the idea of death is terrifying I'll be honest it was kind of like a pop quiz right
right I heard what you said I just thought you were fucking going somewhere with it Jesus no it's just like yeah when you're playing as a player and I think that's one of the things of like as someone who's like in real life terrified of dying and also like gets heavily involved invested in my characters
as a real fucked up shit I'm just not no sorry I for those listening I'm aware of just how intense Madison sphere of death is and like my immediate thought which I'm not gonna say was something fucked up and so I'm not gonna say it I'm not gonna say it
that's also something to keep in mind when you're playing with people don't push boundaries and lines that you know they're not comfortable with yeah
and as we want to do an episode talking about like consent forms and like check sheet and blood a kid something like inclusive table topping one might say
but like the idea of like also knowing the personal lives of your character of your players I think is important is like you know the like do they have the time to make a new character are they gonna have the emotional availability to switch to a new character
do they have an entire dice box built for this character and all of their dice and see what I would say though and I would say this to players let me build a world in which your character is allowed to die
yeah I am not planning on killing you and most cases I'm not in this particular campaign I keep having to reiterate that I'm like y'all can be a little more risky because I'm do not have like I don't have it out for you all there's not death around every corner that's not the campaign we're playing in
last one anybody could die shit was up for grabs we were playing in a universe for people to walk through doors and that was the new PC
yeah I'm not playing in that one now so I'm like y'all can be a little more out there with you don't have to be afraid of me fucking action every session with that being said please get attached please be emotionally invested please do this please do that but do not have it in your mind that this is the only character you will play for this entire campaign ever
yeah don't do that because then it's it's a situation where like yes sometimes in my means of DM yeah like it just as to how I like to DM I like to be very serious I like to be very by the book rules that are rules damages the damage dice is the dice but also I'm nice but I'm nice to a fault where if you're that attached to a character no I'm not gonna fucking kill you
yeah why would I kill you yeah you care too damn much it's too damn early no just like walk away and call it but like if it's to a point where I just absolutely cannot touch your character now I want to do it more I'm okay I want to do it more the glares and I want to do it more and maybe there's a reason why your character has to go through death saving throws almost every session because I'm ready for them to get the fuck out I'm aware because it's like a plot or a line that I can't touch as a DM and you know I'm not gonna touch your character
I'm not gonna touch your character as a DM and you as a player telling me I'm not allowed to touch you as a PC nothing is more infuriating correct it's the hold that I write it or do you yeah who's the enemy here I never said that she couldn't who's the enemy here I never said that you can't tell me that I was like unlike decentralized as fuck to not kill that character
correct uh-huh but for other reasons to um so the second half of this being sunsetting your character um fucking there are so many campaigns that I've heard about and then I've seen on Instagram and tech talk where it's like what do I do with my level 20 characters we are like four years deep into this shit there's nothing they can't do their gods that like there are there one of you wanting to
put a risk is like sparring partners like it's how do I write them out of this fucking story yeah um and this is the reason why I want to do player death and sunsetting is they're very much the same thing and the way that players often feel them telling somebody that their player is no longer or that their PC is no longer playable sometimes is taken in the same way a death is because if we go off my definition of death earlier which is the lack of being able to take an action when you sunset a character that character is no longer taking actions there are no more than that
part of the party they're out of like they're just gone uh and I think a lot of the same notes follow for death which is trying to make it meaningful is always going to help of course um sometimes too it's a little weird and you have to do it because like we've done said it's several characters
yeah and sometimes it's a little weird too it's not always just because that's how you want to end a character story sometimes people just have to dip out of a campaign and you gotta find like a really weird kind of like cool they never come back you know but even when I've had to do that I've tried to make that absence mean something whether it's doing a session with them individually on our own time
or rolling in one of their PCs that cared a lot about them,
that's there to assist the party,
or they're leaving, opens up a door for something else,
it's difficult writing an end to characters
that were meant to live for a very, very, very, very,
very long time.
Yeah.
And I think that goes back to talking to your players,
like what makes the most sense,
what feels the best for them,
being aware of whatever kind of character arc they're in,
it probably makes most sense to try and sunset them
at the end, that doesn't mean that like the same session
that they kill the BBG, you end the campaign,
like that's not what that has to be.
I think what it can be,
and what oftentimes feels best is to do a session
or two sessions after the ending of like the big conflict,
just to kind of resolve where everybody goes,
it's like cool, so now you no longer have a primary motivation
to be in the party, how like, what do you do?
What do you choose to do with your time?
You all can stay together, you all can leave,
you all can never talk to each other again,
do you like move into an apartment together?
Like, and it's one of those things too,
when your conflict is always ongoing
and your players are only a small piece of it,
like in this campaign, they're superheroes.
There is no universe, the real one that we live in
or the fake one that I've made,
where their job is going to just be over.
Yeah.
It's not how superheroes work,
crime doesn't just stop existing
unless the planet goes with it.
You know what I'm saying?
So thinking of how to sunset fucking superheroes,
I'm like, do I break their legs?
Do I take away their powers?
What the fuck?
Do I make it a really big conflict
that then like makes them not wanna be heroes anymore?
You could just have a retire.
I understand it's going dark ways,
but like how do I retire characters
who are in their fucking 20s?
Okay, I think it could be a thing of like,
am I gonna time skip like 40 years?
I mean, I think if you live in a universe
where medical technology is like at a peak,
you're not even done at 60.
Okay, I was just gonna say,
I think there's a moment where you could have like,
okay, maybe you feel like you're gonna be best needed
in another city and you move into another city
and you try and start like the heroine there
and you try to like set up things there
or maybe you realize that your powers,
maybe this hero thing isn't for you.
Maybe this is a little bit too scary.
Maybe this is a little bit too over your head.
And see, the reason I wanted to bring it up as a topic though
is I feel like it's really difficult
when you're looking at a party and not just an individual.
Yeah.
You know, it's one thing to go clearly based off
all your experiences.
I'm picking up what you're putting down as a player.
This shit is not for you.
You go live your normal life, hang up the costume,
like spider-man shit in the trash,
famous comic book panel, you're way out of this shit.
But when the other four characters are like,
cool, time to form like a legit group,
that feels kind of weird.
Yeah.
You know?
So it's finding the most appropriate way
to end your final, final session,
which is often what setting a character is.
It's that final session when everybody
is there meeting together.
And then asking them what the fuck they wanna do, man.
Yeah.
I think that that is, I'm not a DM,
but I think from a DM's perspective,
I think that's something that I would lean more towards
when it comes to sunsetting a character,
is asking a player what they want and what they envision
this character's ends to be.
And I think that like...
I agree, I think that's a moment where as a DM,
you can kind of take your hands off of the wheel.
Yeah, because I think like the three big characters that,
and I say characters that got sunsetted
as opposed to like something else happened to them.
So they are not sunsetted,
they are like either turned into something or like...
Yeah, like an ad or some shit like that.
I think one of them was a character named Z
who ends up like going back to his homeland
and ends up becoming a god.
Just like, and not in like the level 20 way,
but in like a, there is a like Greek pantheon,
the party killed one of the gods, there was an opening
and he just slides on up there and is like,
cool, I'll take it.
And I thought that that was like a very fitting thing
for that character.
Yeah, definitely.
I think in terms of Magnolia,
I really do enjoy the way that she was sunsetted
because I don't think that she was a character,
while I was very attached to her and didn't want her to die
and it was like a big thing,
I still don't think that she was a character
who was made to live.
It like...
And she fucking did.
And I think that that's part of what is cool
about sunsetting a character like that is like,
this is a character who was like by no means
was supposed to have a life of her own.
And then to be able to sunset that character
doing something that she wanted to do
and just have a basically immortal life
is a cool way to sunset there.
Those are just two examples.
Looking at like giving your players a good ending
versus giving them kind of a shitty one.
Most campaigns you'll play in most campaigns,
you watch there will be some kind of a happy ending
where it bare minimum, the players achieve the goals.
I think we had a lot of negative endings
and are one for players or for events.
And that's one of my favorite things about it.
I know I felt kind of shit from the players perspective,
but like from the deans perspective,
being able to write a story
and have people participate in it
where like the good ending was not guaranteed
was so fun for me.
Just because it made the consequences and the stakes
and the actions feel so much more significant
because victory wasn't guaranteed.
It sounds super sad.
It felt very Star Wars,
just in the terms of like the way it ended
where it was like, yeah, we won.
But did we really?
But like there were a lot of losses
and it really never felt like we were gonna win.
And yeah, we got out by the skin of,
which grants it Star Wars,
they did not get out by the skin of their teeth,
but like, I mean.
They're fucking planets got blown up.
Yeah, it was like there were not,
there were significant losses that we are still feeling
and we don't have anywhere to go home to.
Yeah.
But it's over as opposed to something like Harry Potter
where it's like, cool, we defeated Voldemort
and he turned into butterflies
and now everything's back to normal.
Oh, Jesus.
Yeah, I think really it's just feeling out
what your campaign calls for.
Is it a story that's been very on the rocks
and it's been a hard five victory every step of the way?
Maybe a bittersweet ending makes sense, you know?
I think a bittersweet ending is good.
I don't think that, and this is once again,
I'm not a DM.
I don't think that I personally,
if I ever DM'd would leave a campaign on a bad note.
Just because I don't like the idea of like,
I think bittersweet is good.
I think like taking your losses is very real.
Like a character having to sacrifice himself
and like the final encounter.
But that's still like, that's like the bittersweet
and that's like that versus like, well, you guys lost.
I don't know what other way to tell you guys lost.
The city burns to the ground.
It's funny you bring that up.
So I've talked about a couple of different times.
I really wanna do Elastivus campaign.
And I think that's probably the only campaign
that I will ever DM for where that is going
to be a real potential.
Yeah.
Like I think this is gonna be one of those deals
where everyone has one character, there is no backup.
It is very intense and it's very serious.
And there's like a real chance that like the story ends
with the story ends.
Like we could get three sessions deep.
We could make it 10 sessions deep.
Like it's as long as you all can survive.
Like that's the theme of the campaign.
But again, that's the theme of the campaign is survival.
As opposed to being a fucking superhero.
Like yeah, death is a real thing you flirt with
because you're a powered individual.
But like also superheroes always save the day.
So it's kinda like, you know.
There's a certain level of security there.
Yeah.
At least when you're playing like level five characters.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And everyone spent a lot of time like coming up with stuff.
Just kind of one of those things where like,
you gotta feel what's best.
What's what's suit your players, what suits your campaign.
And yeah, like sometimes sunsetting and deaths
are very similar in the sense that like,
one of the sunsets that we've had happen in particular
was it was bittersweet in that it wasn't really a victory.
It was just like, cool, we survived another day.
Character named Yifan basically like fulfilled
his purpose in the campaign.
I sent all of the other players out of the room,
did a one on one with him.
I still haven't told people what happened with that.
Which is I think that's kinda fun.
I was really hoping you were gonna say no.
I had that player also like swear to secrecy
that he would never tell the other players
what happened either until I told him that it was cool.
But he had a very bittersweet ending
and that everyone in the party forgot who he was.
And then I like monologue them through their memory,
filling the holes in the blanks with other people
or different characters and different actions.
And they lived, that was the end of the first like,
of the first sort of session episode of the campaign.
But it was bittersweet.
Like nothing was really gained from that.
It was just like, we lived, we survived.
Sometimes that's all it can be.
And I think it's also fun.
It doesn't always have to be something super special.
I like to leave them, I like them to be left
on a little bit of a cliffhanger.
Not in a way where you like,
ever have to actually revisit them.
But like, just there's a possibility.
It gives the possibility of the world.
Yeah, of like, if something were to happen,
you could do like a one shot in that universe or something.
Or even being like, lets the world feel like
it's still living.
Like, even though you've stepped away from it,
that's still a world that is turning
and that has conflict and things that are going on.
Like in this one, I've totally thought about giving you guys
a one shot where you all play the millennial group.
That'd be fun.
Like in their up and coming days,
like on their first like couple of big jobs,
everybody being one of those characters,
I think would be so fucking fun.
But like things like that, setting up groups,
groups of characters like, leave it off on a cliff note,
man.
So that way you have a universe that you can come back
and revisit and it doesn't have to be this big final thing.
Yeah.
Like this is.
Thanks for listening to another episode of Table Talk.
You did this so interesting.
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So I hope everybody had a good New Year.
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If you celebrate that or whatever the fuck else you celebrate.
Happy holidays.
That's what you say.
Thanks for listening to another episode of Table Talk.
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