Hello players who are always trying to fuck the BBEG and DMs who cannot figure out how
to make your party fucking party.
Welcome back to Table Talk.
I'm Maddie and I'm Robert.
What are we talking about today?
Today we are going to talk about character relationships.
This one's probably going to be a little bit more of a player heavy episode just because
I've kind of wanted that.
I feel like I've been yapping and yipping a lot just because I have a lot to say, a
lot of knowledge swimming up here.
You know what I'm saying?
I always feel like I've got to be the last person in the room.
Not really.
I love hearing people's perspectives.
Otherwise I wouldn't be on a fucking podcast with another person.
I'd just do something by myself.
But I'm not.
But the whole point of today's episode is to talk about sort of the dynamics between
players at the table, how to make relationships between PCs.
Also how to, I think from the DM's perspective, my little bit of two cents in this is going
to be how to craft and maintain relationships between NPCs and PCs, which I think is very
difficult because unless you are fully into, you are every person you've ever role played
as as a DM, you are just fully multiple personality disorder.
But it goes beyond being an actor though, man, because it's like at a table, at any
given table.
One could be like six different people over the course of two hours and every one of
those people has to be fully different from the next.
And yes, actors can do that and do that all the time.
But I think as a DM when you're also directing, it's like if you had your director out there
and that director on top of directing the whole show was also playing six different
characters in his own play, each which had its own voice, its own accent, its own, Lin
Manuel Miranda is a great example of this.
You're saying this.
But he doesn't direct the thing while he's playing in the thing.
That's literally, I do what I say.
That's literally my dream.
Like if I got to choose what I did in theater, that's what I would do.
No, that's so valid.
But I'm, I'm not.
You get to write everything and direct it at the same time and then also be an actor
and be all your favorite parts.
Yeah.
I get to wear all that.
I'm also a whole another category of human being.
I'm just an interesting person.
That would stress me the fuck out.
But yeah, that's, I mean, that's pretty much where my two sense ends and begins, man.
It's just difficult to try and, especially trying to figure out how to fucking manage
relationships between NPCs because at the end of the day, it's all the same person.
Yeah.
Like, yeah, I can write different character motivations and different this and different
that and whatever the fuck, but like it's still me.
Yeah.
And I think it's just in general, I mean, not even from just a DM's perspective as it
being difficult, I think it's difficult across the board of like a thing to manage.
Um, cause there's just relationships in any sort of form in general.
Cause there's like the whole idea and like, at least I see all of the like fucking memes
that I see on the internet about like D and D are like all these jokes about like D and
D is just like a thinly veiled excuse to flirt with your friends or like, if you're
not flirting with your friends in D and D, are you even playing the game and blah, blah,
blah.
And I think that's true for a lot of tables.
That is not the energy at our specific table.
Just because of the nature of the group of people that we are playing with in our friend
group.
That's just so far from the rate of human.
Yeah, it is.
That is also something that's also kind of like, I think.
I think those are the two extremes of the D and D tables.
At least that's something that like I've experienced in my own time playing D and D because when
I was playing at another table briefly, all of us were like flirting with each other and
it was like a whole thing.
And then sometimes you have, you go to other tables and it's like, I, I, I'm sorry.
I cannot let that go.
Unsaid.
Robert has been sitting here trying to eat those little like mandarin orange cups and
like drink the juice out of them.
And I'm telling you right now, this man is covered in mandarin orange juice.
It is in his beard.
My whole fucking sleep is on his shirt.
That's a little everywhere.
It's okay though.
I was just trying to get through this without saying anything.
But it was.
I forget at some point you'd mention it some way or another.
It was bad.
Um, yeah.
But I think that like sometimes at tables, it's a little bit more of like, you have to
put a little bit more effort in you, a little bit more like try into making those kind of
like inter-party relationships work in any way.
Because I think it's interesting enough, I think talking about the difference between
being an actor and being a D&D player is that at least as an actor that shit is written.
Yeah.
You know, and I think that's the biggest difference between like being an actor and
like playing D&D is that when you're an actor, you, everything is given to you.
Unwritten play where the director is giving you real time instructions about how the world
is interacting with you and you got to make the script up on your own.
It's like having improv with a director.
It's fucking insane.
Um, insanity.
Which, oh my God, I'm not, I'm not gonna get into that.
Not to chew at our own horns, but it requires an awful lot of fucking talent, man.
Especially to do it well.
Are you kidding me?
Sorry, I...
No, I think, I think D&D and role-playing and the whole fucking act of it, I think
requires a hell of a lot of talent.
I will say, I'm gonna go back on like when I was in middle school.
Back when I was in middle school.
Not even middle school.
I'm gonna be full honest.
Back up until 2020.
Back in 2020.
Maybe a little bit into 2021.
You know, sometimes you're weird and you're on the internet and you find other people
that are weird around the internet and you like also are on discord and you know, sometimes
you get involved in some like communities where you are creating some cool art.
And then...
See, I thought it was going in the route of sometimes you get involved in some communities
where you're role-playing.
That's where it's going, Robert.
But see, I'm thinking, I'm thinking of, yeah.
Not like sexually.
See, that's where I was thinking.
No.
You know, like you troll around on the internet, you meet some people on Amigo, you hop in
like cats and then it's like one thing leads to another.
It's gonna sound bad.
I almost wish it was a sexual thing because I feel like it's more embarrassing if it's
not.
No, that's so weird.
You know, it's like, no, I'm just like...
We live in a world where like you can fucking...
We're just role-playing like a healthy friendship with someone.
Like...
Well, role-playing a healthy relationship is wild.
Like dead ass, that's what I was doing.
Along with like other like really cool short points.
It was basically D&D without the dice.
We were just creating the story with multiple players.
Experienced out the relationship in real life too.
It's like, how the fuck are you supposed to...
I wasn't even going there.
Wow, okay.
But like, if you've never experienced like that particular kind of relationship, how
the fuck are you supposed to then replicate it at the table without seeming like totally
off-guard and in like a way out of your depth?
Yeah.
Key example, we've talked about this particular player whose dad, Batman, he's so far removed
from that kind of personality and those experiences that he just like struggles to replicate that
personality.
But I think the biggest thing before like talking and like delving into like the idea
of like how to navigate these relationships.
Sorry, we have notes.
I can't jump too far in them.
I like having notes.
Keeps me on track.
Just kind of like the first thing that...
And these are just guidelines.
You don't have to stick to that.
You are putting so many like of these fucking Mandarin oranges in your mouth at once.
Can you just go down the list?
Okay.
Instead of yelling at me for jumping too far ahead.
So I was just gonna...
I'm not yelling at you.
I'm just like, we don't have to follow it exactly.
These are points that I wanted to talk about.
But I wanted to talk about kind of like the idea of like just checking in with people
because I think that that's like the first step.
And this just kind of goes in general when you're just...
Because you're gonna...
Interparty relationships are gonna happen.
They have to happen.
I mean, well, we did a campaign where they damned the year didn't happen, which was impressive
to go that long.
Yeah.
I don't think I've ever seen a party not party that way before.
That's why I picked my intro because I was thinking about how fucking impossible it was
to get my first party to be a party.
To like to interact with each other.
They never liked each other.
They never talked to one another.
They very rarely, if ever, shared personal information.
A few people would crack jokes and that was about as far as it went.
Yeah.
Some insults were thrown.
I think the most mutual it ever got was if you die, I have a higher chance of dying.
And if we're doing the math on this one, keeping you alive is the best way to keep me alive.
That was the general feeling that everyone had towards Magnolia for like...
It truly felt like I had dropped...
I mean, I kind of did though, which is funny enough.
It was like if you dropped a bunch of people on an island and said, you're only way off
the island.
It's this one.
If you work with one another.
Yeah.
If you work with each other.
Yeah.
But...
And then none of you fucking talked to one another.
You just got through the experience, you know?
Yeah.
So we're working on fixing that going.
Awful.
I like college roommates.
Truly.
Yeah.
So this is how to make your party not feel like college roommates.
Oh, Jesus.
And we've talked before about how to be a good player and interact with other players.
So we've kind of hit those points.
But this is going to get kind of more into the nitty-gritty.
And just check in with the people that you're playing with.
Yeah.
Talk about...
And see what they...
Talk about what's going on.
Yeah.
See what they want.
Or like you're playing a bunch of characters that are very varied or something.
Just kind of get an idea.
Be like, hey, is it cool with like, do we want our characters to be friends?
Mm-hmm.
Cool.
I know that as a person going into this.
And I think there's two ways that you can kind of approach that.
You can approach that in character and you can approach that out of character.
I think if you're a more experienced player and you know the people that you're playing
with very well, I think that you can do that completely in character.
And be like, just have it kind of happen organically and naturally and find where and your relationship
impulses kind of lie with different people.
However, if you don't know the people that you're playing with very well and if you're
kind of just in like newer to the game in general, I think it is going to be the most
beneficial for you to talk to them out of character and just be like, hey.
What are we going to do with this?
So your character is like a warlock with like a themed patron.
And my character is a cleric, like a light cleric.
There's probably going to be some tension there because our like very natures contradict
each other.
Yeah.
Do we want to like be antagonistic?
Is that an okay thing to do?
Or do we want to like do that?
Which can feel a little bit like HRE, but genuinely I think it's going to help you in the long
run.
And that's something that like...
And it drops down to another one of your fancy points here, which is how to encourage
difference and non positive relationships without PVP.
Yes.
And the conflict between PCs and even PC to NPCs is so difficult because I mean kind
of with our first point, you want your party to party.
Like that's the whole fucking idea, man.
I mean, and sometimes it's fun to like pit like conflict, like conflicts against one
another and interest and like kind of like the fiend versus cleric thing or like a fucking
rogue in a party with a paladin.
How do you balance it?
And how do you just not have it be combat and cock block every single fucking encounter?
It's tricky and I've been on both sides of this where I have been the person who...
Oh yeah, I've been the person to tell the rogue no.
Like four times in one session and he got to the point where like out of character he
was like, bro, let me do something.
Let me play the game.
And I'll say I've been on sides of this where I've been a character who has not known how
to navigate, how did my first time playing.
I didn't know how to not do PVP.
Notting.
I've been in a lot of situations with every party member more than once.
It was never like a thing that was supposed...
And no one...
It was not like a cute thing.
It was like cool.
She hits you.
A lot of it is learning how to coexist.
We talked about it in another episode.
Learning how to coexist when everyone's the main character is so impossible.
And I think that that's like really important.
How do you make sure your personality doesn't take up the whole fucking session, the whole
campaign, the whole room?
And I think there's a lot of ways and we're dealing with this kind of like at our current
table and this is something where like me as someone who knows the people that I've been
playing up this table with pretty well, we're about to go on vacation together for the second
time and...
Let's just laugh.
Jesus.
And also like has been playing with these people for a while and I consider myself like
a pretty decent player.
I still like have real life conversations because there's a character.
I'm playing a character named Nightlight with light based powers, Ray of fucking sunshine,
Mary Bubbly and then there's a character named Shadow who is a shadow character with a sensitivity
to light.
Light and shadow.
And also is like Batman and like beats the shit out of people and tortures them.
Fucking white, good and bad.
She doesn't think that that's okay and we had a moment at the table where we've like,
we didn't really have time to do a lot of like inter-party like conversations with each
other and there was a moment where I was like, I don't like what you do.
I don't approve of the way you do it.
He went, yeah, no me too.
And then Robert was like, I was like, no, can we explore that conversation like a little
bit more?
Like there was something to be had there.
And we had a really cool conversation about it and we like talked about like why our
characters did what they did or thought the way they thought.
And then after the session we were talking, we were like, no, that was really fun.
Like I would love to explore the conflict there because these are two characters who
get along very well otherwise.
But this is kind of a big hurdle to get over of like, are you going to be okay with someone
who like beats the shit out of people?
And I think that's when it really.
It really starts to become important being like both the director and writer and not
just like the guy telling the story and pushing the levers and pulling the buttons, you know,
like sometimes is the DM you do have to step in and go, no, there's like, this is the script.
This is what you should say.
This is the dialogue we're going to follow.
This is the route we're going to pursue because part of your job and this might sound a little
pretentious.
You're part of your job is to know more than your players and to be like not a step above
them, but just to be vigilant about all of the things happening and not happening.
And if you know that for the sake of the story or for the plot or for the characters like
Dan, they really should have had that conversation.
Step in and go, hey guys, have this conversation.
Because some players like the person that was opposite Madison are just not going to be
as naturally inclined to pursue that conversation.
And that's okay.
And that's why you have these things in place and why you have a relationship with your
DM where they feel comfortable enough to be like, hey, like kind of dig into that a little
bit more.
Because I think one of the biggest differences between like your table that you play out
in the basement versus like watching the people on dimension 20 or critical role in the way
that that like emotional impact lands on those shows versus like at your own table.
Sometimes I think truly, truly is going to boil down to your inner party relationships
with each other.
Because I think if how invested you are, how much effort you put into it, have a relationship
with the people that you're playing with and your character doesn't have a relationship
with the other characters at the table.
There's nothing really at stake.
Like yeah, the world is at stake.
That's where it gets difficult though, because some people aren't going to be able to have
the time in real life or even the interest to get to know the other players.
Yeah.
And it's tricky because we're playing on a campaign where we can only play for so many
hours a week and we have limited time with each other.
I mean we play more than most fucking tables get to play.
For a while, I mean it was once every week, so that came out to four times a month.
But at the same time, because of the stuff we were doing, it didn't feel like we had,
our downtime was spent talking to each other.
And I think that one of the biggest downtime was spent trying to figure out what to fucking
do next.
Like cool, so I'm doing this, I'm doing that, I'm doing that.
There was no downtime where it was like we sit down with a slice of pizza and talk it.
Especially as a player, my best advice that I can give is like if you are given downtime,
spend it doing a fucking beach episode with your party or a fucking bottle episode or
whatever you want to call it.
I just like to call them those.
But like do something fun.
I'm a slice of life episode.
Have a filler episode.
A slice of life episode.
A slice of life of filler.
I think that those are going to set the ground for really impactful moments later on where
you're going to be able to encourage someone to do something.
And it means a lot more that you're encouraging them because of this shared history that you
have versus like the opposite.
And I think that it's just something that's like I, having that investment is so big.
And I think it's something where you just got to find other people at the table that
are kind of like on your, and this is also coming from a perspective of like we don't
know what your table looks like as a two-person.
I'm kind of speaking from experience at our table.
A fucking good idea of what the majority of them look like truly.
It's not that varied of an experience.
The table that we are playing at is one that is, I'm the big role play focused person.
And like that's my favorite part of the game.
And it is not really everyone else at the table's favorite.
And that's, there's nothing wrong with that.
No.
We got our chess players, we got our combat, micro combat buddies, you know, we got the
plot finders like.
We play it, we play it in a very classic D&D table in my mind.
It is a very like.
Yeah, it is very straight up.
A very old school.
Like when you imagine a table full of people playing D&D.
Full of men.
And that's.
Let's be honest, when you mentioned.
Yeah, I didn't want to say it.
A basement full of neckbeards sitting in their basement with slices of pizza and some beers
like that.
And then me.
And then Madison, who's an actor.
Yeah.
So, you know, it's also a thing of like managing expectations, which we've talked about before,
several times on the show of like kind of know what the, the vibe is and what the like
the, the, this is when you can help me out with a word.
Like the theme, the feeling, the tone.
I don't know, man.
Sorry.
No, I'm just kind of confused what like what we were going for.
I mean, I don't know.
I have bits.
The vibe or the feeling of like the table and what other players are like wanting.
Question for you then.
How, as in try and give the most non-actor answer, you can try my best.
I'm hearing a lot of like, try and manage this, try and have a relationship, try and
like look for things here and look for the things here.
How?
Hey, this shit sucks.
Do you have something you want to send in to make it better?
Criticisms, topics you'd like to see discussed or an advertisement you'd like to run.
Maybe you even want to sponsor an episode.
If so, shoot us a message at mc460 at evansville.edu or DM us on Instagram at crescent magazine
or we'll never get better like these fucking guys.
You have to medigame a little.
If you find the way that I like to do it, the way that I like to approach it as me as
Maddie and this is not an actor answer.
This is a legit Maddie answer.
I like to see what the hooks are that I can dig my little goblin hands into and rip and
tear into.
A little dice goblin hands.
I wasn't even going to go there.
I'm not a dice goblin and I stand by that.
She's a goblin.
You heard it here.
Gremlin, sorry, I'm a gremlin.
That fits better.
We can start saying dice gremlin if that makes you feel better.
We don't need to say dice gremlin.
Anyway, if I know that a character, I'm going to use the fucking Warlock and cleric example
again, if I know that a character and I know as Maddie that this character is a Warlock
and has a fiend patron, even if my character doesn't know that, I know that that is going
to make for a really interesting dynamic because they are like conflicting.
So I am going to have my character asking questions about the Warlock's patron and be
like, oh, that's Eldred's Blast.
I didn't know you were a Warlock.
That's cool.
Who's your patron?
Oh, that's that's so neat.
Have you ever considered our Lord and Savior or like finding a way to kind of like explore
that there?
So that's the way that I like to approach it is finding those hooks and finding where
your character and another character could overlap or your character and another character
would have conflict and hitting those things and hitting them as aggressively as possible.
Because I guess it's possible.
So sometimes I don't think there's a lot of room in D&D for subtlety when it comes
for players.
I think a lot of the time we imagine and we want to do the same.
I think there's subtlety for the people that have done it a long time.
I think there is zero room for it when you are just trying to like play the game and
you're not that experienced with it, you know?
So I think the thing of like holding a secret and being edgy is great in theory, but I think
that's really fucking stupid.
Like awesome.
It's dumb.
There's no reason for you to hold edgy boy secrets at a table where the whole reason
you're there both as a person and as a PC is to work together.
Is to work together.
Yeah.
Yes, you can make a character in a background who's fundamentally opposed to working in
groups.
That doesn't mean that you get explicit permission to dick off Batman style the whole fucking
game.
And we've talked about that several times.
I think to insert the DM2 since here, I think in terms of hooks to speaking directly to
the DMs, not so much to the players working those hooks in as much as you can to connect
the players, I think is a really great way to do that too.
Like if you see an opportunity, sorry, even if it's something that you haven't written,
but it's something you know can give them a connection, but can take it man.
Like it is a super easy switch to say instead of Sebastian going out and hanging with his
best friend who has very little connection to the rest of the party Ricky, instead I'm
going to have Sebastian go and hang out with his new best friend Parker who's out there
doing like the Lord's work and is also currently having a strange relationship with another
party member.
That's going to get everybody at least those two people a lot more invested in that one
interaction and could eventually lead to some connecting and some hooking.
But if I had just said cool Sebastian you're going to go hang out with Ricky for the day.
I mean that player also has interest in Ricky, but Ricky's not also that player's best friend.
So like there's no, there's no connecting of the dots there.
Like it's yes self-contained, but also aid your players with feeling connected to one
another by giving them similar fucking anything.
Similar friends, similar weapons, similar powers, relationships, fucking partners, plot
hooks, you know, make one character's arc necessary for another character's arc.
I love doing shit like that.
And that's another thing that you can talk to player, like other players at your table
about is being like I would love for our characters to have this type of arc.
And that's like, that just in general, I didn't write this down, but that's something that
like I'm very pro is straight up having a conversation with either your player or your
DM and say, Hey, I want my character to have this type of arc.
I don't think that's cheating.
I think that that's actually incredibly helpful.
If you verbalize what you want helps me a lot.
Sure.
And it like also gives at least from my perspective, if I was DMing, I think it would give me kind
of an idea and a direction of like where I can go and where I can take something if I
wanted to.
And it also sets like a kind of clear of expectation.
There's another player at our table who I was like, I want our characters to be like really
good friends, like our characters are the two closest characters in age to each other.
We're from the same part of town.
Like, yeah, I am.
We're both like pretty new to the game.
And every other character is like older than us by almost 20 years.
Our characters should be good friends, like by all means.
So like next time that we've got downtime, let's hang out together.
And like, let's try and make these characters like friends, because I think that there's
sometimes like when we've done like one shots and stuff, I feel like all of our parties
and like characters have messed together so quickly because there's no time for like
position.
Because I'll make you all like a pre-made group of people.
Yeah.
You all have a bond before this.
Here's the bond.
Yeah.
Y'all know each other.
Yeah.
And I think that that's also like something, but if you're like playing in a long form,
like a long run campaign where people have to find each other naturally and the party
has to come together.
I think that's when it becomes more difficult.
But I also think that you can like kind of take initiative there and be like, I've decided
that this is our like dynamic.
Another easy way to do that, like give another character a nickname.
I think that's such an easy way to like establish like a familiarity and some sort of relationship.
And see, I think what keeps a lot of people from doing that kind of stuff though is that
it feels cringy to them.
And I think if it's only cringy, you make it.
To be like, Sebastian, you know, or like, or like Dee Dee, Daisy Dense or something.
Yeah.
Like, I don't know.
So much of the role playing issue when it comes to D&D is that we are not professional
actors.
Yeah.
We have not been trained to get over that cringiness.
And we are not willing to cross those social boundaries of which are like fundamentally
required for us to cross in order to create sort of the best version of the game we can.
And I think that that's that's always going to be the biggest hurdle for people in D&D.
And there's not going to, there's not a how to truly.
I mean, there are, but like, it's going to be the same how to of like how to get over
what I'm not going to say here and also act like as someone who's in college to be an
actor, I have those moments in my acting classes where I'm like this, I feel like someone's
about to pop, maybe it's a result of like bullying in school, but I feel like someone's
about to pop out and be like, fucking got you, you goddamn loser.
What the fuck are you doing?
Oh my God.
You're really like pretending to be a squirrel right now.
You're pretending to be 80% squirrel, 20% human.
That's fucking stupid, which is a real exercise that we had to do in class, by the way.
Fucking silly man.
Yeah, it's silly, but guess what?
It was some of the most fun I've ever had.
Credit to you man.
And it's one of those things where like sometimes you got to figure out a way to like not be
cringy and I think my way of like kind of reaching that point is like I'm playing Dungeons
and Dragons in a basement at a table with a table full of men.
What else is left?
I have nowhere else to fall.
Playing Magic the Gathering.
I have nowhere, truly, truly the only way that I could make it weirder for myself and
sadder for myself is if I joined you all for your game of Magic the Gathering after, of
which I used to play with you all.
So I've already reached that low point.
I think truly, and this is my best way to get over it, and I mean this with love, you're
already playing Dungeons and Dragons.
You don't have to worry about being the coolest person in the room.
And it's like that step of forming those really personal connections is such a small, like
if you've already managed to get the table, you've already managed to say something in
character.
You've already managed to make a background and have a shtick and a story and a style.
What difference is it going to make for you if we're talking about feeling sort of socially
anxious to ask that person, not in an accent, not in a voice, just as you playing as that
character.
You want me to slice the pizza?
It's not.
Like it's not.
I promise you that is the least weird thing that you were doing.
Truly.
And it's going to make everyone else feel like, wow, we're playing like in a real world because
there's no real world where you're going to risk your life with these people and then
not like also hang out with them.
Yeah, and I'll tell you what the lamest thing that you can do at the table is not.
That's why we're just shitting on people who just don't.
I mean, it definitely sounds like it.
Um, and maybe I am a little role play.
Fuck you.
You're the loser.
Yeah.
I truly, I think, and like when someone's putting themselves out there, the worst thing
you can do is also not put yourself out there because you're going to look infinitely more
like a fucking loser.
Someone is like our table.
I can't say that.
But like on that point of like worst thing you could do is not put yourself out there.
Most of the motherfuckers at our table are just like a little scared to put themselves
out there.
I think this is the one semester where people are like finally coming out of their shell
and really role playing.
But before that, they were the people that like, it was putting themselves out there.
I'm not going to lie.
I'm not going to sit here and pretend like it's bad man in a cave.
I'm not going to sit here and pretend like that is not something that I struggle with
at our table.
But I know the people at our table and I love them.
You're messing with the document.
I am messing with it.
Okay.
And don't stare at me while you do it.
You fucking freak.
And I think that that's something that like I've had to deal with.
And that's like going back to dealing with expectations.
How long are you going to do this bit, Robert?
Long enough for my brain to turn on.
Okay.
Well, speaking of which, I mean, this is going to get kind of like into DM territory here.
If we're doing an episode called character relationships, I feel like we also have to
address like the other type of relationships that kind of exist in the game, which are
very common in a lot of tables that have not happened really at ours yet.
Romantic relationship.
We finally got a couple.
We got a couple of ankleings in this one.
Yeah.
I'm excited to see how things happen.
It's so funny.
Now is like there's no reason why like Sebastian and Daisy should not be semi interested in
one another.
Y'all are the same age.
We both know that you are attractive in the game, but because you too as players are so
absolutely not.
No.
Never going to happen.
Yeah.
It's never going to happen.
There's so many times where I'm like sitting there.
It's like you put Beast Boy and Raven in a room.
How do you expect the two of them not to like hang out and talk to one another and kind
of like flirt a little bit?
I mean.
We got two people.
We've managed to do that.
To fit the demographic.
And they don't even acknowledge that the other person is like semi attractive or also
in the same profession.
And this is like we are where we as a table are the polar opposite of like so many other
D&D tables, which is like so many other tables.
It's like, yeah, you flirt with your friends and you and your friend make little characters
for mills and they fall in love and it's so cute.
Our table and I mean this with love.
It is the I love everyone.
What are they?
I mean, there's something, there's something that's a little there that's a little weird
about flirting with your male friend or female.
Yeah.
If you are the opposite gender.
Yeah.
It's like one of the biggest hurdles at our table as we are a group.
It is a, um,
In our male, our male players will just straight up touch each other at the table.
Yeah.
And it's something we're like, I, this is one of the situations where like, I'm sorry,
I have a twister in my mouth.
Robert, you talk for like 10 seconds.
I'll talk for 10 seconds.
So I think when talking about the DM perspective, specifically when you're looking at romantic
relationships, I don't have a lot of expertise with it.
You want to know why?
Cause nobody at our table has dared to cross that line, but we've gotten close this semester
and it's only really happened with a couple of different people and it's basically just
like this.
Will they, won't they?
Yeah.
I made Aunt May or Batman and Batman rolled like 23 and then basically it was like your
lips are the color of roses and then proceeded to turn around and like basically have a panic
attack and vomit like on it.
And that was like, we're not sure if that was the player or the character in that moment.
100%.
But like it's difficult because romantic relationships are like the ultimate private like connection
that you can have with another person for the same reason that like guys will play
grab ass, but guys also won't talk about their feelings as one another.
There's a line there that is like fundamentally not to be crossed and people are just as scared
about crossing that line at the table too.
And I think at our specific table, it's, it's an interesting thing of talking about like,
you know, it is a table full of male friends that have been friends for a while and then
me and it's really difficult to separate the fact like reality from the game.
And it's one of those situations where it's like, that's a weird thing to navigate of
like me being at the table because I'm like,
I'm playing Sebastian and Daisy and Madison playing, sorry, Maddie and Maddie playing Daisy
start flirting with one another at the table.
It's kind of like, okay, this is gross to watch.
Yeah.
I don't know if it feels gross on the airport because they're basically like brother and
sister.
Yeah.
And it's one of those things of like, I'm playing at a table full of my brothers.
Yeah.
So you're not going to be like, Hey, brother, you're like kind of cute.
Absolutely not.
And that's something where like you have a conversation with your DM and like your other
players.
So your DMs start getting you hot in PCs to flirt with.
Yeah.
And it was like the closest that we had to like a romantic relationship in our previous
campaign was still like, it was never spoken about like it was never acknowledged.
It was like there were a couple of jokes from like NPCs.
Which one?
Adeline Magnolia.
Oh, yeah.
Like there were jokes from NPCs because there was like a, they were definitely like sharing
a room.
They just like never acknowledged it at the table or anything.
No, because it would be weird.
They got married.
They straight up got married in that last fight.
Oh yeah, but not really.
Yeah, but like still for the buff, not like walk down the aisle.
It was for the like the bonus points, but like, um,
Got married.
You say like y'all like got fucking like had a whole ceremony.
No, um, it was so we could do a really cool thing and that it didn't happen.
Um, but it was one of those things where it's everyone knew.
Yeah.
And it, but it was like any time that I as Magnolia tried to like talk about feelings
with that specific character, it got shut down so fucking fast because that player in
real life is a little scared of those feelings at times.
And that's where those things were like, it's, and you got to feel at the comfort of the
people that you're playing with and see like what they're okay with and like where the
line is between the table and real life, which I think that some players and some tables
are able to do a lot easier than others.
We existed a table where some things are a little bit more difficult.
One woman.
Yeah.
It is, it is such a table.
It is great setup for a porno.
Jesus Christ.
Not for a D and D table.
You know why?
Cause every dick is in every pant, firmly zipped the fuck up at all times.
Where is this?
What?
I'm saying that in so many other situations, there is plenty of room for cross pollination
here and there is zero at a D and D table.
Correct.
And it's infuriating to watch.
Correct.
It is something where like I as a player, I'm like a little conflicted because I'm
someone who like at my other like tables that I played at.
Is it weird?
Are you making it weird?
And that's the thing.
I think it's, I think that this is one of those things where like it's only weird if
you make it weird, but also on the flip side, I've like, anytime.
Cause every single significant other is going to go like, yeah, but you can't have like
really a female friend.
Yeah.
Like you're not, I'm not really going to let you guys like cuddle in bed just because
it feels nice as people.
Yeah. and I think it's one of those things where if you have like, I think that you can
have romantic relationships like as characters at a table with like mixed, uh,
genders, mixed genders.
Um, just because, and I'm saying that only in the terms of like that is the table that
I play at.
Um, uh, uh, I think that that is okay, but I'm also an actor and I also like have conversations
at the table of like, this is what we should do.
Cause we had conversations earlier this year where, where you were talking about how you
wanted to introduce like romantic interests.
Um, in this camera.
And I tried and then it ran away from me and like a fucking like just train off the track
dude.
Yeah.
Like, uh, and like we've talked a couple of times about a possible, um, like a romance
setup for Daisy in the future because that is something that I like want to happen.
Uh, everyone thing is going to be our best friend.
Everyone thinks that I think Daisy thinks that too.
I think Daisy is trying hard enough for there to be something there and Barker is just,
I think she loves Parker in a specific way, but I think if Parker was like, Hey, I like
you in a different kind of specific way.
I don't know.
There's a world where Daisy's like zero interest, never, never ever.
It may be.
I don't know.
That's something that'll be explored at the table, but I, I think that that would be more
fun.
I infinitely think like genuinely that is one of the opportunities.
I have to flirt with you at the table.
I mean, you also play Parker.
Yeah.
That's weird shit.
And that's weird shit.
And you've got to deal with that.
And are you making it weird or is it just weird?
I think both, I think both.
I think both can exist.
100%.
And it's one of those tricky things, um, of like, I have so much respect for like the
critical roll cast and the dimension 20 cast and watching.
We're just flirting and fucking all over the place.
Oh my God.
It's insane.
Yeah.
They have like, and they're like character romances are like, they're like romance.
novels.
It's like fleshed out fully there.
Tense.
And they're like, their, their wives and husbands are at the table with them.
Like critical role or married couples, married couples at that table.
And let me tell you, you want to know who hypes up their relationships with other PCs
more than anyone else.
They're fucking husband.
When I tell you Travis was hyped as fuck for fucking Vex and Percy.
That shit was adorable.
Like no one was more excited about that romance than he was.
Um, like I'm so much respect for like that whole like the idea of like you can like form
like these really cool like fleshed out relationships.
Yeah.
Um, but I think kind of getting back to why there's such an emphasis on those kinds of
relationships is like, if I say roll a d20 for your last saving throw and you fail and
you have no relationship to anybody in the party or you're like, damn, that sucks.
That sucks for you because like you don't get to play the rest of this combat encounter.
We're going to go back to what we were doing, but like, wow, that really sucks.
Versus like your husband watches you fall from across the battlefield.
Like that's that shit's got intrigue.
I wouldn't go into a rage like, you know, and then it's a whole thing.
I think it's also for me as like a person who's made like a million characters and even
like not in D&D fashion have done a thing where like I've created a character and worked
with other people who've created the character in that same world and we like work and like
flesh out a story together and blah, blah, blah.
Um, romantic relationships are always a fun thing to do because they're just fun to play.
Like as a, as a player, as like an actor, as a creator, those type of relationships are
so important.
And I think that there's a lot of emphasis on those in our culture.
And I think that's why people gravitate towards them, which I think is also when everyone
at the table is like, no, Daisy's got to be in love with Parker.
And I'm like, is that the case or does she just have a really deep relationship with
him and we just have so much emphasis on romantic relationships?
So I have a question as a culture for both of us.
How it's, it's about one of the points on here, which is how to encourage difference
in non positive relationships without PVP.
How do you as a player approach a situation where in character, another character fully
like steps to you and it's like, I don't agree with the decision you just made.
I don't like you as a person.
We're in a party.
This is a very loose relationship.
And in this moment right here and right now, I'm calling you on your shit.
Who?
How do you take that in a non PVP route?
If that is not the direction that you wish to go without blowing up the fucking party.
Okay.
I'm going to, I'm going to sound like a bitch right now.
I'm going to need more specifics.
I only because I think it is something that varies from, so let's say, let's say with
like, um, like a Magnolia situation, it never really happened.
I mean, it happened a couple of times, but it never really like really, really, really
happened.
So let's say a rogue goes in like Rob's a bank and Paladin like picks up on it last
minute because rogue drops like, I don't know, a piece, like a jewel on the way in the door
of their hideout.
And then Paladin confronts that, that rogue that evening and everyone at the table knows
including person playing character who is rogue and person playing character who is Paladin
that like their ideologies, their personalities have already been on opposite into the spectrum.
And this is like the straw that breaks the camel's back.
How do you not have it end up in a party blow up or a situation where you both is people
just go, we're not going to acknowledge that.
Here is how I as a player without it turning into cool.
We're fighting each other.
I know I'm here's how I as a player would handle that type of situation.
And this is like, I'm going to be like going like in full detail of like the actions that
I would take.
I think that a way to like explore or avoid that would be something along the lines of
I would take that character.
I would do a private confrontation.
Yeah.
And I would, I still think you can have a full speech and you can have a full step of
moment of I know what the fuck you're doing and it's not okay.
And I'm not going to do with it.
I think that the way that you get out of it being PVP is relying on outside circumstances.
I think going and leaning like into this person and being like, Hey, motherfucker, we have
bigger stakes at play.
We are on the middle of like, we are in the middle of hunting down this fucking dragon
that has burned down my grandma's village.
And I am not letting you and your dumb ass decisions get in the way of that.
So I'm going to tell you right now, I do not like you.
We like this and as soon as our time as a party is done, I will deal with that.
So then what do you do when the other player not clearly picking up on, because this happens
with us at the fucking time of the table.
What happens when the other person goes, you know what?
No.
No, this is a problem.
This is a standing problem.
It needs to be dealt with right here, right now.
I don't fuck with this whole let's do it later bullshit.
You're going to call me out on my stuff.
No, that's not the route we're going.
Oh, well, one, I think that's a moment where you as a player, this is what I would do as
a player.
I would look at that other player and go, what the fuck are you doing?
Like real life.
Hey, this is Maddie right now.
Bro, we can't do this.
That is always an option.
And I do want to put that out there just straight up because we had a moment at the table where
I was getting a little like, huh.
Yeah.
I was like, come on guys.
With the situation and I like fully broke and was like, hey, this is Maddie talking to the
other person at the table.
What are we doing right now?
Is this really what we're doing?
Because I'm not spending 20 minutes doing this in real time.
Yeah.
So we're going to move on.
I think genuinely having your player disengage or having a player be like, you're not because
you can go, I'm the bigger person and I'm not going to fight you.
Or you can be like, you can kind of take like the petty around be like, you're not even
fucking worth the effort that I'm putting in.
I think the outside extenuating circumstances is almost always going to be your best default
in that situation.
To answer my own question, I think being like, hey, there are just things that are bigger
than us right now.
And for the sake of getting through this, like, yeah, we will PVP on the second to last
session.
You bet your ass.
I'll be there.
Time and place at this like specific tree where we met me and you fucking no holds bar.
One person walks away.
One person doesn't.
But then being like, yeah, but we have shit to do right now.
I think as a DM, how I would handle that situation if like two people were like dead
set or one person is very clearly like, I don't want to be VP either because they know
they're going to lose or because it's not the right thing to happen.
And one person is like, no, let me hit them.
I'm asking you to roll for initiative.
Let me hit them.
I think truly, I think as a DM, that's the situation where you just have to go, you know
what?
Not right now.
Yeah.
Not right now.
Like, or that's when you're like, and suddenly somebody knocks on the door.
I was going to say that.
Suddenly like the other two PCs who have been in the wings watching this argument go down,
walk back into the house or show up at the hideout or you hear an explosion or you're
you're sending stone begins to vibrate.
Like that's when you have to like throw a fucking wrench right in between.
It would be like, there's something else bigger than you all right now.
If your players aren't, I don't want to say not intelligent enough, but if your players
aren't like perceptive enough, they're there to pick it up.
You put it down in front of them.
You go, no.
And I think that's something that you as a player can also do.
If you see this happening with two other players, you can jump in.
I just, yeah, that's you.
That's when you go to your DMU.
Can I just walk in right now?
Can I just like, I have pizza guys.
Yeah.
And it's something that you're going to like read differently at every table in every situation
because maybe this is a moment where you do want PVP to happen.
And I would say always ask permission in that situation though, because there are definitely
times where like two players are having their thing and yes, it could be disastrous, but
they also want to play it out.
And so to just have another PC who's like fully uninvolved in this situation go and
suddenly I walk in.
That just feels very like, okay.
Like you didn't ask permission to do that.
Yes, we live in a world where that could happen.
No, this is not your moment.
Fully ask your DM in this moment or even ask the players, hey guys, can I walk in in this
moment to like diffuse or just to be like comedic relief or something?
Most times you'll get told yes.
And I think just, oh my gosh, I had like a whole thought and then it just fucking slipped.
Gone to the ether.
Truly.
That ass.
Yeah.
Anyway, oh, this is another one.
Just fun character relationships that you can explore within your party and this is just
me kind of rattling off tropes that I like.
Buddy cop.
Buddy cop is, it will always be one of the funniest fucking things.
One of my personal favorite is like the Reformed villain buddy cop situation where like the
vibe at like Thor Ragnarok where like Loki and Thor like working together again.
It's like one person clearly doesn't want to be here and does not agree with the rules
and the way that we're doing this.
But God fucking, I have to do this and now you just have like it was party full of clerics
and then they're one fucking like warlock friend who doesn't want to be there.
That's so funny.
I don't want to be here anymore than you all want.
That is always so funny and that is always a funny like party dynamic.
Funny.
Ha ha.
I think that a parent character is always fucking funny whether that be a literal parent
or just a character that is like fully taken the role of being like, okay guys.
Like dad Batman.
Yeah.
Like the mom friend or the dad friend or dad Batman.
Like that is also infinitely going to be kind of like a funny thing and I think it
gives everyone just a little little side note here too.
This is something that I've just just now in this moment decided I wanted to do but
also something I would encourage other DMs to think about doing.
Don't be afraid to do like a little like a little mid campaign check in with your players.
You know, that could be, hey, there's this plotline that I gave you and you just sort
of fucked off with it.
I don't know if you remember it.
I don't know if you're intentionally ignoring it.
I can't force you to go after it.
But like, hey, maybe at the end of that rainbow, there's a pot of gold waiting for you and
it's pretty cool.
I just wanted you to pick that up because like maybe that person is like voicing a lot
of disgruntle.
I'm not getting any, you know, any attention or any focus or any this or any that.
And if you have, if you as a DM have like thrown it out there, breadcrumbs and they've
just like stepped all over that shit.
Hey, bro, breadcrumbs, breadcrumbs, they're still there.
I left them there for you.
Yeah.
At this point, I'm giving it to you in a fucking present.
Like just pick it up.
I think in the same way, if there are relationships that you want your players to explore or certain
kinds of role play that you would like players to emphasize doing those check-ins too, I
think would really, would really, really be helpful.
Like in this moment, my, my thought was I kind of want to tell dad, Batman guy to be
a little bit more dad like, because I feel like that's how he's positioned himself, but
he's not really stepping into that role any other way than being like, here's money for
your problems.
And I personally would love to see him be anything other than here's money for your
problems.
You know what I'm saying?
Uh, same thing with like a couple of the other characters, just general feedback being like
be more this, be less that.
I like this, I like this direction that we're going.
What can we do with it?
You don't always have to just leave it up to your players to like stumble into some role
playing or relationship gold.
You can also just be like, hey, I can see it because I got a big picture.
Maybe leave a little more on this.
Maybe go pick up that.
Maybe do a little insight check, a little perception check on that thing.
Ask this person out to coffee.
Maybe something will happen.
You know?
Magical.
Just meta game.
You can do that.
That's allowed.
Truly.
I think there's so many like of those fun like metagaming things and like you can also
just like pick a fucking trope or like a concept and like straight up like just tell it to
your party.
Just build your character to like as a player, build your character around a trope and just
let everyone know.
Like I think another one of the like really good ones are like ones that are always funny
or like the, the, the like unlikely pair of like two characters that seem so fucking
different but are like besties.
That's always funny.
If you look at like Pike and Grog from Fox Machina.
That was the first example that came to my mind.
That is always funny if you have like this big hulking like scary character and this like
tiny little like sunshine character.
That's so funny.
Or like a like a overly pessimistic fucking like asshole jaded character and like a fucking
sunshine like a goddamn ray of sunshine.
That's so funny.
Yeah.
Like all of those things are really fun.
Yep.
Be afraid to mix it up.
What are other like I immediately like normally I'm so good at like having tropes and shit
and I've like lost all of them instantly.
I think, oh Jesus, other tropes.
Fuck's sake.
I mean there's so many of them.
I think yeah the buddy Copland is just funny as fuck.
I think having two people in like unrelated jobs like come together and then be like oh
shit you're also in the system or like even having that like you've always been there
the characters had every reason to meet and never met until it's like oh my god wait you're
from like two blocks over.
Yeah or having those little connections happen behind the scene.
We're like you know so and such.
I know so and such.
You know Ricky I know Ricky you're from the farm from the fringes too.
It's shit living here.
Yeah it's shit living here.
That's like that shit.
Just do stuff that you find funny legitimately.
That's what this boils down to.
Yeah.
You shit that you find funny.
100% like that's truly where you're going to have the most fun in the game.
That's where it's at dude.
Speaking of comedy thank you all for listening to another episode of Table Talk.
We will see you again soon.
Bye.
I like to think of us as comedians.
I'm sorry are we not is that not what we are.
No I like to think I'm a comedian.
And see that's where the real comedy is at.
I will kill you.