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M: Hello players whose characters are just a little bit too much like them.

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R: And DMs whose villains are just a little too much like them.

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M: Welcome back to Table Talk! I'm Maddi.

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R: And I'm Robert.

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M: What are we talking about today, Robert?

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R: We are going to talk about villains.

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How to make them, how to roleplay them, how to use them in your world.

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The common term for them in D&D is BBEG.

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Do you know what that stands for?

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M: Big Bad Evil Guy.

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R: I've never understood what the acronym meant.

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M: I don't actually know if that's true.

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That's just what my brain supplied me with.

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R: I mean, that was pretty quick.

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M: That's what I think it is.

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I'm going to double check that.

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I mean, that makes sense.

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But yeah, BBEG is sort of not even historical.

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I mean, you just talk about sort of character archetypes throughout stories throughout history.

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She was right. She's celebrating.

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It's always just like the villain archetype or like the antagonist.

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I mean, there's really infinite number of words for it.

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But something about like the ones in D&D, I feel like they always have to be kind of like grandiose and have a very large personality

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and really drive a lot of the behind the scenes plot line.

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Because it's the funds.

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And it's one of the things of like, in my mind, because the DM doesn't get like a specific player,

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I think that there's a lot more work poured into the villains.

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M: Stop showing me. Those are so bad.

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Showing her pictures of me in high school.

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I fluctuated between super, super edgy and like little tiny itty bitty boy.

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So that's just the side plot.

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That's the like B plot of this episode.

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Maybe we'll upload photos of Robert in high school to the server.

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It's bad. It's bad.

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But I feel like because the DM doesn't get like a specific character to play,

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I feel like there's more work poured into the villains.

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And I think that's part of the reason why the villain or like the BDG or whatever is like always so grandiose or something,

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because it also gives like the DM character to play with.

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It's the one opportunity that we have to really make a character or something close to a character and then like play them.

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Yeah.

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I mean, you can do that with NPCs.

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I mean, pretty much every NPC you create, you will end up playing with.

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But few are as fleshed out as like the villain.

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Yeah.

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Just because it's fun to play with them.

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For me, it's super fun to have NPCs that aren't just plot devices.

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Like I treat my villains very much like I would treat a player in that I make them very organic.

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I make them do things behind the scenes.

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I have them make their own roles, take their own actions when the players are like sort of acting and interacting.

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I like to make mine feel very much alive as opposed to just like an NPC that's there to move the plot forward or there to cause the party trauma.

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Or it's just very like press X for dialogue.

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

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Or like fill them with a shit ton of monologues.

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I very much take not inspiration from, but Brendan Lee Mulligan's.

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What was the guy's name?

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And you got to give me the season.

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Oh, ho, ho.

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Oh, Jesus Christ.

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How am I?

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Give me the season.

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I've got it.

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Unsleeping City, Robert Moses.

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Yes, Robert Moses.

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I fucking loved that villain.

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I love that villain.

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Oh, he was so good.

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I try to make a lot of my villains very similar to.

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I don't think I've ever like taken inspiration from that character in particular, but just like if you guys have ever seen any anybody listening has ever seen Dimension 20 specifically fantasy high or not fantasy high.

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Holy shit.

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Unsleeping City.

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Unsleeping City.

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My favorite season.

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Phenomenal and the villain Robert Moses is like very much one of those in and out throughout the majority of the campaign.

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It is really only like on in the spotlight for the last what like fourth of it.

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Yeah.

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But like is actively popping up from the very beginning and making decisions that are felt by the player and the world sort of as a whole throughout the entire campaign.

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And it's one of those things when you get to the end where it's like, holy shit, that was all him.

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Yeah.

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He's been doing all of these decisions.

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He did this.

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He did that.

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And I think that's one of the like most fun things that you can do with a BBEG or at least from the players perspective.

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Those are my favorite villains are the ones that you interact with throughout the campaign and I'm not even talking about like combat specifically because like I think that there's definitely a thing of like fighting your villain too early.

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And we kind of like touched on that in like personal conversations that we've had about D&D outside of the recording room of kind of like biting off more than you can chew sometimes.

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But I think that there's something really fun about like having interactions with a villain and like as your party or like the actual combat of being like, OK, we're going to have a conversation.

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It's going to be a tense conversation.

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But it's like a little bit of a pre combat monologue where it's like, I've been tracking you for this many days and I've been doing this or it's like there's always like like an offer you can't refuse type thing that usually happens where it's like this is your one chance to walk away or like,

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join me and fulfill my evil plans or like you one specific character who I've been helping behind the scenes.

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Come with me and betray the party.

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It never fucking happens.

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No, it won't.

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The one thing that almost consistently happens at the table is that no matter how evil of a character somebody is supposed to be playing when it comes time to make a decision with or against the party, it's almost always with even if the character is supposed to be not a with.

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Even if it goes against the entire party's.

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It's just like deals and morals.

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She get to that point the campaign is a player.

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You're like, even if I'm supposed to be this way as a character, like fuck that.

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And it's a hard thing to like trying to balance when you want to play like a character because I think like double agents can be fun.

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And I think that's something that can be explored at the table.

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I think that it's something I've tried it twice, almost three times actually and zero times has it worked out.

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Yeah, every single time it has been.

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It's just been that infectious to the point where it's just like, OK, never mind. There's that slide pod.

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But I think that double agents can be really fun.

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I think it's something you definitely have to have conversations about because it's one of those things where like if all of the players at your table are aware that someone is a double agent, they're not going to trust them just because they're going to be smart players and they're not going to like divulge personal information out.

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So I think that one of the things that you can do is kind of have those conversations like one on one with your DM outside of the table.

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Yes, I am. You can just Google it.

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Yeah, I want to see what chat GBT gives me.

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We'll eventually have an episode where we talk about sort of AI in terms of its role in the game.

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But I just looked up sort of traditional interrupts for BBG's.

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There are so many. Just to hit a few on the list here. Dark Lord or Lady, powerful malevolent fingers, sometimes it magical supernatural abilities.

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It's like the Sauron.

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We have to come up with examples for all of these.

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Yeah, well, like Sauron is a really great example.

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Oh, Jesus, you've got some fantasy stuff.

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You've read some fantasy stuff.

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I have no idea who the thing you just who what you do.

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Lord of the Rings, big guy in the tower, giant evil eye.

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We talked about this before.

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I do not like Lord of the Rings or the Hobbit.

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Voldemort. Yeah, Voldemort's Voldemort. Great example.

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That's something I've read.

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Fuck Turfs, side note.

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But yeah, like we'll hit Voldemort in Sauron Call of the Day there.

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I think we're struggling with a tragic backstory.

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A lot, a lot of BBG's have some sort of tragic past that like leads them down there.

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I mean, my first and favorite villain of all time that I made, Keloi, which is an anagram for Loki.

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That was his whole reason.

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Like he did everything out of love for one particular character.

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I mean, he was it was twisted because his brain.

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I mean, if you've listened to some of the previous episodes, we talk a lot about our first campaign.

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And I talk a lot about sort of the motivation for the villain,

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because there were a lot of events that happened previous to the campaign.

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And that's how I like to make my villain's dynamic.

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I like to have things happen to them outside of the campaign leading into it.

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It's very, very uncommon that a person or even a fantasy person is just going to wake up one day and go,

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I want to end the world, you know, like even the Joker, who is chaotic, evil for the sake of being it.

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Depends on which comic you read, but there's an origin there.

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But there are a couple of different origin stories for the character becoming crazy.

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Like there's always a cause for whatever, whatever.

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And oftentimes it's a tragic backstory.

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So like their family died or they lost a loved one or they really tried to like accomplish this big goal.

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And it got thwarted by this one particular hero or a group of heroes.

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I think what's even fun, too, about the tragic backstories, you can flip it and have them like be the hero in their own story.

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So from their perspective, they've only ever been trying to do good.

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And then they were like thwarted by, in their mind, the bad guy, but everybody else like the hero.

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Yeah.

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And so then it's even a little more like tragic in that sense, like from their perspective, everything they've been doing has been for the right thing.

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I mean, my initial thought was Thanos, but that's not I mean, specifically MCU Thanos.

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I think it's that tragic backstory, like all the wrong things for the right reasons.

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Because I think one of the most dynamic things you can do for a villain is not let them know that they're the villain.

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Mm hmm. Like this is a perfect chance for you to talk about the book you've been reading.

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Yeah, I said I was going to talk about this on the podcast.

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I've been rereading a ballad of songbirds and snakes or snakes and songbirds.

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I can't remember which order and watched it in theaters, not together, but we did watch it and it was phenomenal.

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So good. So fucking good.

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The book fucking phenomenal songbirds and snakes.

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OK, but Coriolina Snow, who's president Snow in the original trilogy, like light spoilers, Suzanne Collins, Suzanne Collins is phenomenal.

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She's so fucking good. But so he's like the dictator. He's like the one in charge of Panem and is like, you know, continuing these hunger games and blah, blah, blah.

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And then this book basically follows him when he was like 18 years old.

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And it's not like the traditional like villain backstory where you expect like the tragic backstory where it's like he tried to do good and then something bad happened.

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He loses his family. Yeah.

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And like you see, he's in tragic circumstances for sure. Psychotic. But he continuously makes decisions.

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He is offered with OK, here is a chance to do the right thing or something that's not the right thing, but is not evil.

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And he always chooses a secret third option, which is his best friend's name.

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So Jane or a best friend. Well, best friend in the movie in the book.

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So Jane is so Janus. Yeah, so Janus. So Janus.

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Well, my my thought sort of reflecting on that to talking about that, like having there there being a hero that sort of mirrors your villain is Janus is very much in my mind.

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Looking back at it is supposed to be everything that snow could have been. Yeah.

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So snow and Janus are in the book and in the movie are faced with a lot of the same decisions.

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And the biggest difference between the two is that Janus will always go out of his way to make the decision that will benefit either the most people or that will try and sort of sort of downfall or slight the games.

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Yeah. And snow continuously makes decisions to perpetrate and to continue and to like prize them, which is crazy because he's in love with Lucy Gray.

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He does it all in the games and like all out of love for one character.

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Yeah, he's fully fully unlike people who say that he was not in love with her. Wrong.

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Is his love crazy? Absolutely. Is he toxic? Absolutely.

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But I without a shadow of a doubt, he was in he loved her. Yeah. Love like in 1950s Trophy Wife love.

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Yeah, no, it was like I want to own you. No one else can look at you.

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Like it was it was a lot. He was looking out some real hardcore fantasies with that one man.

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Yeah, I was last night when we were talking some D&D stuff, I was sitting there reading the book and just reading out lines and they were unhinged.

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But talking about Tragedy Backstory, he's a great example. Coraline is a great example of like how that tragic backstory can be interesting as opposed to just like they were a good person and then the worst thing happened to them.

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And now they're bad. Like you very much have a character that like comes from tragic backstory without it justifying their actions.

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Like the inkling of their being sort of this malicious intent or like under the just under the water surface, kind of like broiling evil was always there to begin with. Oh, yeah.

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It's just the circumstance prevented or like sort of presented them with the opportunity to then fully like blossom, I guess, into that villain.

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Yeah. The next one on the list is Ambition for Power. So BBG's. They always have that.

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Shout out Coriolanus Snow. That man was so ambitious for power.

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Driven by a desire to achieve or maintain this power. But see, again, I think Coriolanus is such a such a well written character that like his ambition for power isn't even like to have ultimate power.

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Like, I want to control the world and I want to be immortal. It's like I have to move up in my station. I'm better than that.

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He's out to prove a point. Like his his thirst for power, his ambition to like win is to show the world that the Hunger Games like it's one of the final things it said in the movie when oh my God.

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That was me.

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Viola Davis Viola Davis is a character who Dr. Gall Dr. Gall. She plays phenomenal. It has another conversation with Snow at the very end of the movie and sort of towards the beginning.

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She goes, what do you think the Hunger Games are for? And he's like like to instill fear to like keep rule for for this for that.

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Like I mean, a lot of reasons that normal people would think the games are for. Yeah.

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And then at the very end, when he's finally like been brought back to her and she's like, you're my protege and you've passed all your tests.

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I'm going to ask you again. What are the games for? And he's like to remind everybody that underneath all of this sheen and under all the shit, regardless of where you're from, we're all fucking animals.

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And the only way to keep us in check is to remind us that we're animals. Yeah.

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And so I think ultimately his thirst for ambition is just to continue to show the world that in like higher stakes on a much more public platform.

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And one of the things that I also love about the book and the movie and like Coriolanus Snow as an example is just it's showing the ideology of your villain of being like this is what I truly believe to my core.

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Is it a correct thing? I'm sure about the next one. No manipulator.

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Bbgs are often master manipulators. Yeah. And we'll do just about anything to get through goals.

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I mean, that's Coriolanus to a T like that snow to 110% T even when he's doing things for the right reason. If you consider like Lucy Gray preserving her life as a right reason or a just reason, it's always the wrong thing.

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Yeah, it's like I'm going to send 65 bottles of water at these children and definitely rig the games to keep Lucy alive. I'm also going to tell her to poison several people.

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Yeah, I'm going to cheat in the games multiple different times. Like I'm going to manipulate one of my teammates to let their tribute die. Manipulate Sejanus.

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He hates Sejanus and he lets Sejanus think that he's his fucking best friend. Yeah, because he's like, this is a good connection for me to have.

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I was like going into other manipulators in media. There's so many. Yeah, like literally just about every key. My character was number one huge manipulator. I mean, everything he did was very much behind the scenes. He was never like a super big, like big, powerful, tough guy that has like a lot of superpowers and his life.

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He was a slimy little fuck. He was a slimy little fuck. Like that's what he was known for. He would he would pop in combat encounters and the second he got close to losing or they got close to winning, he would leave every time without a doubt.

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There was no like, I'm going to fight till the bitter end because I hate you guys. It was no, you are so low on my fucking tier list of things I got to do today. I'm not wasting my time or my life on you.

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Yeah. And I think that's what makes villains too very interesting is when you're when the players are not the central part of their plan. Oh yeah. Because then it's even more it's like wow, like they're it's like wow fuck you man. Yeah, it's like their machinations are so grand or their schemes are so big. It's it almost feels more organic to sort of stumble into that plot and then to force yourself to be the ones to sort of thwart him. Yeah, it's like you're not even it's almost cooler that way because it's like you weren't even part of the plan. But here you are fucking it all up. Yeah. Saving the day.

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And it's one of those things also of like motherfucker you committed these atrocities and I don't even matter. Yeah, like you burned down my house. You killed my whole family in front of me. That's Tuesday for you. You did that kind of on a whim. No. Yeah. Minions and henchmen. So it's having a large group of followers minions or henchmen that like to do their bidding. It range from like stupid orcs like again going back to Lord of the Rings Sauron.

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He has an army of orcs born from dirt. They're all stupid. They're all evil. Then you have like superhero campaign henchmen might look like skilled marksmen like hired mercenaries that are goons that are intelligent and have weapons and have pack tactics.

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This is also going to be Darth Vader and or anyone in the Empire really and stormtroopers. Yeah, they don't even have to be theirs directly. They can just be like members of the force that sort of that person comes from. Yeah.

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Cold leader kind of the same vein. So having that person being sort of worshiped in a religious way or a mystical way or even just out of fear.

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You know like dragons are a great example of this. There are often cults around dragons in D&D because they're just so powerful. Not because like they're mystical. I mean some of them are but a lot of the times it's like here's this big bad dragon that's eaten like thousands of people.

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And there's this village at the bottom of the mountain that worships that worships him and brings like a young version for tribute. You know every time and that's where your party gets inserted like going with them.

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And that's kind of a good example of cult leader doomsday plot. Their end goal is to end in the world. Yep. Next. We all know it.

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Shape. Okay. I'm reading this one. Yeah. Shape shifter or disguiser. Some people have the ability to change their appearance making it difficult for the heroes to identify and confront them.

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Fuck you for that one. That was why me motherfuckers man. Shape shifters are very fun villains to play with especially if you want to play with the idea of making your characters lose their goddamn sanity.

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The shape shifter manipulator combo fucking phenomenal dude does wonders truly. Writing wise. Absolutely. As a player at the table I wanted to reach across the table and throttle Robert sometimes and I don't know if I wanted to hurt the character or hurt him as a person.

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I mean again that's my villains are by far my best NPCs and it's because I have a very rigid personality at times and I can just get into that petty ass mindset. Kee-loy was by far every single villain that we've ever fought has been petty as shit.

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Kee-loy by far was like the king of petty. Like he wouldn't confront people. He wouldn't give people the opportunity to fight him in a fair fight. He wouldn't show up. He kept paying people to do his work for him and then people just went nah.

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Twice. Twice. I gave two people like huge stakes to be like hey go fuck over the party and they were like nah but we kind of like these guys. But they didn't even like the party which is the funniest part to me. Nope.

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But yeah shape shifters are very fun to play with. Immortality or resurrection. Liches. Yeah ability to cheat death. Golden Morts is a great example of that. Another one there.

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I feel like villains and like immortality are always like going hand in hand. They're pretty close to it. Palpatine. Palpatine is a great example of several of those. It almost makes me want to see like I want to see like a good guy who's after an obsessive immortality. I mean Palatine's can get kind of close to that.

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But more so in like the reward of a task and less so like I'm actively seeking it out. Yeah.

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Or like any vampires. Any vampire period. Yeah. And that's kind of like they've already achieved it so. Symbolic motivation. The motives may be symbolic or representative of larger themes such as chaos versus order, light versus dark.

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That's just kind of. Star Wars. Yeah. It's a general like it's the foil situation. Which I think is always very fun when you like are doing a villain of creating someone who has either like similar circumstances or similar like ties or similar powers or opposite powers or like this that or the other in just a way that like kind of mirrors the situation that the party is in or things kind of like that can be really fun to play with.

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And a lot of the time at least in my experience and like noticing those things will come out the more that you play. Like it's not something you have to sit down when you're creating a villain and be like okay this character is going to be foil in this this this in this way.

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Sometimes I think it comes out more when you're just like going through because like looking back at our World Serpent campaign I think one of the big like themes that emerged from that was like freedom like the concept of freedom of like personal freedom of like what does it mean to like own yourself and like be your own person.

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It's like a really big theme that kind of tied into every single one of the characters and it was not something that like we intentionally talked about or like did it was just something that emerged and so when you have a villain who is like all about control and controlling all of these things it creates a really nice foil to that and that wasn't an intentional thing.

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Sometimes those things will just emerge especially when you're making a villain who has to oppose the party and oppose your quote unquote good guys in any way and I mean you can also take all this villain stuff and flip it if you're playing a party full of evil characters and you're making it like a good guy to stop them.

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Yeah.

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It's also one of the it's not like black and white like good or bad.

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100% it's a it's a lot more fun to let their their sort of motivations their goals, even their personality sort of grow with the campaign as opposed to having them being very hard set from the beginning I mean a lot of first time DMS and just a lot of DMS who are sort of writers at heart will want to

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because I've done it a little bit and I've had to sort of scale back in the moment will want to write out their character like their BBG motivation their personality their backstory like everything before the campaign starts.

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And that's fine but also keep in mind that like the best NPCs and players not even just like villains in general are the ones that sort of grow with the story and with the narrative so you can even have villains that aren't planned from the beginning, that just sort of grow out of having other NPCs like without giving a whole lot of way just because we're still in the middle of this campaign with the capes and crooks campaign.

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I don't necessarily have one particular person pegged as the BBG.

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I'm kind of letting that happen organically based off the players choices based off what NPCs are paid attention to which ones aren't which ones the players find more interesting as opposed to other ones.

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And it's also very common for people to have like primary BBGs and then like secondary and then tertiary and so on and so forth like having your big guy that's behind the scenes or that's driving a lot of the plot behind and then having sort of your like second in command or they don't even have to have a relation they can just be like the first big antagonist they have to get over.

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And then having another one and then having another one like you don't have to just have one big villain that does all the fighting and the behind the scenes works like give them a network or just have other people if you want to play in like a more organic and kind of like flowy world have multiple that are all doing their own things.

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Just have some be like a little smarter than others or have some be like a little more like waiting in the shadows or maybe even like the final BBG of your campaign is like somebody that gets left behind by the party on accident at the like end of the first like big fight with the initial antagonist like it doesn't have to be something that you have planned from the very beginning.

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Improv is very much like core to the game and is is like it's super underrated when it comes to creating characters and motivations and story like just feel it out.

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I mean you are also kind of in your own way a player as a DM.

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Yeah, I think it's also something and this isn't specific to our campaign this is legitimately things I've seen elsewhere which is like a lot of people always kind of want to gravitate towards like a surprise villain as well or like a plot twist.

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Yeah, person was the bad guy the whole time of like whether it's like an NPC that everyone really likes or whether it's.

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I did not regard to like I'll give you that.

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Oh, I wasn't even thinking about that. I had Mitchell to be fair though I hit the thing with Mitchell wrote way in advance like way and it looks like for the longest time I couldn't figure out where I wanted.

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He always a character to be and it just didn't make any sense with the way that I had written the story for him to like be in the back rooms or because I mean there's no way that he would have been able to have sight on everything that was happening so to me it made the most sense for his.

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Sort of like personality persona his like his abilities to put him in like hibernation mode is an NPC that's mostly going to be safe for anyone who did not see the episode we did about the world serpents and Mitchell was the bartender in the end and it was always there was.

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Yeah, this is this is my new best friend I'm going to tell him all of my personal information and then it turned out it was the bad guy who was a shape shifter.

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The whole time I think the sad thing about that even to us and this is kind of goes to like making a complex villain is that Mitchell as a character had was completely unaware like who he really was.

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Yeah, all of that information gathering and those questions and that probing and that advice like that wasn't done with malicious intent that was done is whoever the character thought they were.

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That's kind of where the fun of playing a shape shifter gets and I love the idea of like shape shifters losing their identities and trying to figure out which one is their real personality.

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That happens in my hero academia with a character called twice he makes a bunch of copies of themselves and then forget forgets which one is the real one and then kills them all.

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And then he's like for the rest of his life he's like I don't know if I'm one of the copies or find the original because they all have the ability to do the exact same thing and it's not dependent on having the original body there.

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And that's kind of the way that I like to play him but like even that having the character or the villain sort of have this sort of tragic I mean flaw like his flaw was very much in his ability to be a shape shifter.

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I mean it was the thing that made him the most powerful but it's ultimately what also gave like the players such a big leg up in the beginning and kept him from interacting with them because he was stuck.

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Yeah. So other things again chat to BT just kind of looked up like tips of making villains in case there's anything I left out flaws and weaknesses.

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Please make them fallible. There are a lot more fun if they are fallible.

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I thought you were just going to say please make them foul. No make them like make them fallible make them have some sort of weakness whether it be physical emotional something tied to their past a name a person and event a place.

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Physical weaknesses are really fun because you'll learn real fast no matter how good aligned your party is they will use that.

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Oh yeah. So fast to a BBG unless you're like playing in a party full of like Paladins and clerics. No, no.

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They're going to get so personal. The second they figure out that there's a name or a phrase or a location or like an emotional sore point that they can lay on.

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They will every time it's like bad the BBG goes to like strike the heart of your ally and immediately somebody across the table is like your mother died in the fire bits.

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Yeah, it's it's just balls to the wall. It's like it's like everyone's trying to basically use like vicious mockery.

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None of them are bards. They're just saying foul shit just happening.

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I mean this kind of this one goes sort of almost without a given or with you know, without a given this complex morality like having them be a little kind of swishy like not every villain sees themselves as the villain or holy evil.

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Or what happens when a villain saves one of the party members.

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Yeah, or like maybe the villains sort of ulterior motives really work well with a mission that the players are on.

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And so that villain chooses to work with them and it doesn't even have to be like a reluctant work with them.

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Maybe he wants to maybe they maybe they're super interested in actually getting to know the players for some random reason.

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And that can be kind of fun to not necessarily inserting them as a plant, but having your villains work closely with your players in as close to a mutual relationship as you can force.

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Yeah, or that feels natural because it's a way for for both the villain and the players to sort of get to know one another in a slightly less negative context, which 100% changes the outlook.

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Yeah, it's like if I've spent time with these four people, maybe they saved my life. Maybe I saved their lives.

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Maybe we're both working on something that like I know is ultimately sort of furthering an evil plan.

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But for them, it's like saving a small village with very important people or people they care about.

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Maybe then when it comes time for the villain to kill one of the players, they choose not to.

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Yeah, you know, like they spare them in this moment of like, you know what? You helped me or I understand where you're coming from.

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I have a very similar background that makes it a lot more interesting that kind of ties into the next one that it has on here, which is personal connections to the protagonist.

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It doesn't have to be they killed their mother in a freak accident. It doesn't have to be he was there and my mother was killed by Dalmatians.

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And that's why I want a puppy. Yeah, it doesn't have to be that it can truly just be like some plot lines that align.

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It can be a familial tie, a past friendship.

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They were at the same fucking I don't know, they were on the same street corner when so and so got killed and my dad knew your dad.

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Oh, yeah. Or like a great example.

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Again, my hero, I've watched a lot of the anime and I've read a fair amount of the manga like there's this big character who's kind of like the opposite of their BBG called All Might, who's basically like Superman for this universe.

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And his existence is like the catalyst for two of the main protagonists to like become really, really, really great and super proficient heroes.

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And he is also the catalyst for causing two of the best villains and ultimately like the final villain.

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I won't give spoilers away for those want to read or watch their motivation for being the way they are.

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The two protagonists are very much like he's inspiring. He does it all.

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He always wins. He stands for everything. That's great. He's the symbol of peace.

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I want to be that and the villains on the other side of that fence see it as like he is what he is everything that is wrong with this world.

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Like he is somebody that should not have that much power. He doesn't pay attention to the little guys.

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He causes more harm than good. And then that sort of kicks off both sides.

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And even that can be a personal connection because then when it comes time for those characters to meet, it's like there's this odd mutual understanding of like this character in the universe that you've created where it's like and then it's kind of like a fun back and forth between the two characters.

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You can have arguments and like a sides and this is what he stands for. No, he doesn't. Like, fuck him.

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You know, I was saying on the more like surface level of that, and we've kind of talked about it before, like if there's a way that you can get your villain to have like a personal connection to every single one of the party members, that's always like super dope.

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Good luck. It's always like super sick. It's difficult. It's very, very difficult to write that in.

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Depending on how many players you have, truly. Yeah. I mean, if you're playing at a table full of like like with like six or seven players, but if you're playing at a table full of like three people, four people, I think it's a lot more manageable.

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But that's also like another really fun one.

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And what you were talking about before of like the complex morality, I think makes for such interesting encounters because it also opens the door to options with when dealing with a villain that are not just combat.

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Like, I mean, there's all the jokes of like, put the gun down. This isn't you. Like, obviously not to that level, but like having a conversation with being like, what are we doing here?

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What are you doing? And like opening the door for like non-traditional options, which I'm very pro non-traditional options in D&D because I think it's fun. I think it's fun to turn the tables and try new things.

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But I think that's one of those that kind of like sets it up. It's going to be such an interesting reference because I don't know what the age range of our listeners are. I mean, I've already said Lord of the Rings, so I guess I'm a fucking old man anyways.

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Spider-Man 3 was the first one that came to mind. We were talking about that because Spider-Man 3, the original Sam Raimi trilogy, fucking phenomenal.

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Spider-Man 1 and 2 were great. 2 is one of the best Spider-Man movies of all time. You can fight me on that.

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Spider-Man 3 has three different villains. It has Sandman, it has Venom, and it has the Green Goblin side. Wild movie side note. Hobgoblin. They try to do a lot.

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And in the very beginning, it looks like the primary villain of the movie is ultimately going to be Hobgoblin in the form of Harry, who goes like nuts after his father gets killed by Spider-Man.

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And then of course he finds out that Spider-Man is Peter, and then it kind of drives this really interesting wedge in the relationship.

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But he was the first one that came to mind in terms of having that switch over time, like seeing who Peter is as Spider-Man, saying that his motivations weren't malicious and really calling on that friendship.

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And in the very end, he ends up sacrificing himself to save Peter. And that was kind of the first one that came to mind when I was thinking of really complex villains that sort of start off incredibly dark and evil,

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but have that really twisted personal connection that then sort of turns into something very different that you don't really expect.

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Yeah. I think stuff like that is always so, so, so much fun to explore. And it also makes, as a player at the table, that shit, if it's like a non-traditional option, it doesn't matter how many times you've seen it in a movie, it feels unique and fresh to you.

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And it feels catered to your table and your party.

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100%. I think, so this is something more from the stat block side of things and mechanically giving them unique abilities and memorable abilities is always really fun.

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It makes them a lot more dynamic to play with in combat. It also makes them a lot more fun from the player's perspective to have to try and interact with mechanically, because it's like, damn, that's bullshit, but that's so cool.

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Yeah.

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It's like, that's how his powers work, or, oh, that's what he was spending all that money on, or that's why he was robbing those shipments, like he was building this big weapon.

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That's, for me, it's one of the most fun things to do is stat blocks for villains, because like, sky's the limit, and you can make them as fucked up and crazy as you want, because it's like, that's just going to add to how cool they are.

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Yeah. And it's one of those things where, like, as a player, you're like, God, fucking damn it.

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That's so cool, but fuck that sucks.

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Or just being like, if they've got an item and you're like, oh my God, I can't wait till we kill him and I can take that.

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The amount of times that he would pull a magical item out and use it in combat, and they would be like, I cannot wait to loot his body, which didn't happen, by the way.

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No, because he got eaten by a dragon.

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He did. He got eaten by a dragon.

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But it doesn't even have to be anything particularly broken.

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I mean, it could also be something that happens in a role play, like a unique ability.

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Maybe they can read players' minds, maybe they can, like, they always, they force people to always tell them the truth, or like, distinctive skills.

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Maybe like, they're incredibly good detectives, or they are really, really good at manipulating people.

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And so what that looks like from a role play perspective is like having a plus 10 or 15 to charisma rolls, or like, they can always take a 15 if they would roll anything lower, like stuff like that.

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I was like, jumping ahead on the little list you have pulled up here, I think that the unique ability thing ties really well into mystery and intrigue.

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Because I think also when you have these really unique abilities for these villains and stuff that your players are, like, not introducing them, being like, hey, this is what this guy can do.

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But you're just like watching an interaction or going through an interaction, and then suddenly this character who you've, like, this NPC that you trust, the fucking bad guy just walks in and says, let me in the room.

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And they just fucking step aside, and you're like, what was that? Mystery and intrigue.

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Yeah, having there be sort of like really behind the scenes. I mean, that's, mystery and intrigue is really where, like, plot twist comes in.

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Where it's like you're keeping secrets, your BBG is sort of manipulating things behind the scenes, and then it's kind of like when that final confrontation happens, pieces click.

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You just had one of those things happen last session. One character was blissfully unaware that he was being watched because he didn't care to check ever.

333
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:20,000
And then was confronted by his boss that turned out to be a really like shitty showdown for him.

334
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:21,000
Yeah.

335
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:29,000
But that's, again, like, signs were on the wall, 100%. Like, I threw out every possible red flag, and he trusted the character enough.

336
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:35,000
He didn't expect the NPC to sort of figure that out when he did and how he did. And that was the twist.

337
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:43,000
Him being like at the very end of that conversation, it was very pleasant. Well, pleasant. It was very much like, you do this, we're great, we're squared away, I'm your boss, we're great friends.

338
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:51,000
Also, I need you to drop the superhero identity. And his response, the player's response to the table was literally, he looked at me, he goes, what?

339
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:58,000
And I said, you need to drop your superhero identity. And then I was like, it's hands or you drop and you work?

340
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,000
And he was like hands. And then of course it didn't go well for him.

341
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:01,000
No.

342
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:15,000
Anyways, that's kind of another example of sort of how that can happen. I think when it comes to stat blocks stuff and mechanically talking about unique abilities, it doesn't have to be like, oh my god, it doesn't have to be anything stupid like...

343
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:19,000
You made so many, you spent so long on stat blocks last night, you could come up with something.

344
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:37,000
I spent so long on stat blocks last night. Well, so I made somebody that could very much work as a BBG if she ever got turned the other direction. But a great example is I gave her a lot of very unique abilities that fit her character and fit what her powers are that aren't necessarily in the book that I'm using.

345
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:43,000
Like one of them is, and this is going to be a fucking minor spoiler, but whatever, anything for the podcast.

346
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:53,000
Hey, this shit sucks. Do you have something you want to send in to make it better? Criticisms, topics you'd like to see discussed, or an advertisement you'd like to run? Maybe you even want to sponsor an episode.

347
00:37:53,000 --> 00:38:15,000
If so, shoot us a message at mc460 at evansville.edu or DM us on Instagram at crescentmagazine. Or we'll never get better like these fucking guys. I gave her an ability to use multiple signature powers on one turn, but it has a significantly high physical toll on her.

348
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:24,000
But that's something that's unique to her character and her character only because she's one of the very few people in this universe that can have two powers at once and balances them incredibly well.

349
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:34,000
That's kind of what propelled her to be like the number one hero in the city. Nobody else can do that. There's nothing mechanically in the book or in the universe that allows people to do that that is solely unique to her.

350
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:45,000
With it comes an immense physical toll, but it's only one that she can do because she has the ability to take that toll. And she's spent years mastering how to use both of those powers at the same time.

351
00:38:45,000 --> 00:39:06,000
And I think that also goes into the point of when you're giving your villains these really cool and unique abilities, balance them in a way where it's like, yeah, they're super cool and they have their moments of where they're a little bit OP, but at the same time are still a mortal being that your players can fight or have a chance of winning against in another scenario.

352
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:21,000
Yeah, 100%. I'm going to just pull up the improved initiative tracker. I've talked about it several times. I'm going to log in real quick and then kind of read you bits of that particular stat block here in a second just so you guys can get an idea of what some of those unique abilities could look like.

353
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:38,000
Another one, one of the things in this list is show, don't tell. So instead of just monologuing about the BBEG's power, have them like physically, it's the actions and the impact on the world, like, very much let their actions speak for them as much as their words do.

354
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:41,000
Especially if your BBEG is like strong silent type.

355
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:53,000
I think that goes for, and I'll talk for a little bit while Robert's logging in, I think that's something that also balance, like, you can do that in combat and you can also do that outside of combat.

356
00:39:53,000 --> 00:40:18,000
You can show weaknesses and you can show kind of like personality in ways that are not just like directly monologuing about, okay, this is where I'm from, this is who my parents were, this is how my parents died and this tragic thing of like, but you can show and like have your players do perception checks and be like, cool, you can tell that this person is like something about being in this location.

357
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:37,000
Like, he's off, like, he's different, or there's something going, or she's like definitely struggling with something, which allows A, for more of that like mystery and intrigue and lets your players feel like they are putting together something and makes all the pieces kind of click into place nicer.

358
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:58,000
When they eventually do get to figure out some of that information, if they get to figure it out, if they ask about it, or if they look for it, because sometimes you also need to kind of make peace with the fact of like, not every asset or facet of your villain that you've spent so much time pouring your heart and soul into is going to get paid attention to.

359
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:10,000
Because sometimes people are just going to kill the villain that you spent so much time on way earlier than you anticipated and you're just going to be like, well, shit, time to come up with a new one.

360
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:25,000
Well, shit indeed, man, truly. I think that's something also to be aware of whenever you're making BBGs is that there is a strong chance that these characters that you've spent a lot of time on do not get the spotlight or die very early on or people just don't give a fuck about them.

361
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:35,000
Yeah, that happens. Have backups like have backups have so many backups. Everyone is expendable. Even the big bad guy.

362
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:46,000
There was a episode of adventuring party that Bradley Mulligan was talking about this time that he made this like really cool Ranger villain. And he was like shooting arrows at the party.

363
00:41:46,000 --> 00:42:00,000
Like on a cliff. And it looks like the arrows are like coming from the setting sun and it's like so sick. And guess what? The party fucking caught him and killed him in the first session that he was introduced trapped his ass.

364
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:09,000
And he died. Yeah, Bradley Mulligan was like, well, okay, that's fun. That's so cool. Like that's something that is going to happen to you.

365
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:24,000
It is going to happen to everyone. The villain is going to die sooner than you wanted them to. You're still going to have like things that you didn't want that you wanted to explore that you wanted to talk about or you wanted to like get done with them that are not going to get done.

366
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:30,000
I don't want to reveal a whole lot of things for her mechanically. So I'm going to go to the other step like I made for another hero in the universe called inferno.

367
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:42,000
So he has one of the things I gave him. He's not a villain, but he very much a lot of your special NPCs will be built out statistics like staff lock wise and unique ability wise like PPEGs if you care about them enough.

368
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:55,000
Yeah. So one of the things that I gave him, he's a very large character in game. He's very broad shouldered. He's very like Constitution is built like a linebacker. Yeah. And his his powers are pyromancy.

369
00:42:55,000 --> 00:43:06,000
So he's a really, really, really adept fire user. He's the second ranked hero in the city behind surge. So he's really good, which that is very much mirroring off of for those that have seen my hero.

370
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:16,000
The all might and and fucking what's his name. Holy shit. Dakota's going to yell at me for not remembering his name. I'm going to move on. This is going to the compilation of Robert forgetting names.

371
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:27,000
Robert forgetting names endeavor. New segment. endeavor. Inferno is very much based off endeavor. So one of the things that I gave him is a legendary action, which legendary actions can happen at the end of any other.

372
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:40,000
We've talked about this before. They're such bullshit. So the one that I gave inferno because he's very much like a legendary hero is something called raging inferno. So in this particular setting or in this particular system, there are what are called stamina dice.

373
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:49,000
You can spend those stamina dice to do any number of things. You can use them to bring yourself back from zero to however many stamina die you spend on it.

374
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:58,000
It requires half. You get more of them as you level up. You can add them to different roles like maintaining concentration. They can be used for any number of things.

375
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:05,000
But for inferno, a lot of his powers, like the sort of the hotter he gets, the more of a physical toll it takes on his body.

376
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:16,000
So one of the legendary actions I gave him is that at the end of somebody's turn, he can sacrifice any number of stamina dice at the end of another creature's turn and roll them as damage dice during his next attack.

377
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:30,000
And he has a lot of stamina dice. He's a very stamina heavy character. And he has D8s. What if we didn't do that? So what what this could look like mechanically then, let's say I make inferno a villain and in a fight, he gets really mad.

378
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:42,000
So the way that pyromancers are talked about, at least in the source book, is that they're they're very brutal. They're very brunt. They have a very fiery personality to sort of match their using, match their powers.

379
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:50,000
And it's very much what inferno is like. And so maybe he's like trying to one shot a villain or he just gets really pissed off and he has to sort of dig deep.

380
00:44:50,000 --> 00:45:01,000
At the end of a player's turn, he spends six stamina dice and now the next time he hits anybody with an ability or like with a power, he's going to add six D8s to that like damage.

381
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:07,000
Jesus Christ. So that's what that could look like mechanically. Also what that has looked like in terms of unique abilities is Keloi.

382
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:21,000
Because he was an incredible, he was a god that whose primary power was shapeshifting and he managed to hone that to such a degree that he could replicate any spell he saw once for every time he's seen it happen.

383
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:31,000
That shit was so annoying. So and well I was struggling to come up with in this, trust me, for those of you that like to write or want to be a DM, this will happen.

384
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:46,000
You will struggle to write stat blocks for unique characters, especially your BBEGs. And a lot of what I'm thinking of when I'm going through and I'm making these stat blocks is what abilities best fit the character, what mechanically makes sense.

385
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:53,000
So like I had a laundry, at least you can ask Madison, she was there. I had a fucking shopping list of abilities that I wanted to give Serge.

386
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,000
How many was it total?

387
00:45:55,000 --> 00:46:05,000
Well I had already added seven or eight different things to her stat block. Mix of traits, powers, abilities, whatever. And then I had about 16, 17 additional things that I wanted to give her and I narrowed it down.

388
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:06,000
By far.

389
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:09,000
I was rolling dice, basically narrowing down.

390
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:18,000
I went through and basically between Madison rolling dice to kind of give me an indicator of which ones I should get rid of. Kind of like a draw, like a chance at C&D.

391
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:33,000
I also reasoned with myself, as much as I would love her to have this ability, it makes zero sense with what she's best at. Like I would love to give her cure wounds so that she can fucking heal herself, but her powers, nowhere in there, does she have the ability to heal herself.

392
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:39,000
Or heal other people. So I didn't give her cure wounds, I didn't give her anything that's health based. Same thing with Inferno.

393
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:52,000
There were several abilities that I wanted to give Serge, like Savage Strikes or Reckless Attack, but it didn't really make sense for her character so I gave it to Inferno instead, who's very much a run into combat and do as much damage as possible. Like finish the fight quick.

394
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:58,000
And so that's kind of helpful whenever you're trying to come up with stat blocks for unique NPCs or villains.

395
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:10,000
But there also again has to be some sort of a drawback. Like the biggest drawback with Killua, I mean being able to replicate any spell he saw was incredibly powerful, but that was all he had in his arsenal.

396
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:24,000
Like what fucked him the most and what worked really well for the party is they had two ridiculously fucking broken martial characters that just squared up on him any chance that they got. And he couldn't do a whole lot about it.

397
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:35,000
It was very much that thing of like in the D&D movie where the red wizard is about to cast some spells and then the owl bear just fucking pummels her to the ground.

398
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:37,000
Yeah she's just getting bonked with the fucking euclid.

399
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:41,000
Wizards can only do so much when you're just beating the shit out of them.

400
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:58,000
And so Killua's weakness in that way was very much a martial weakness. Like we had two very powerful magic users in the party for that particular encounter, but again he's a shapeshare. I mean he could have changed into I don't know like a larger creature, but he had just done that at the combat encounter before.

401
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:12,000
He was very much like a two parter. He had like a phase one and a phase two type deal. But that is the single unique characteristic I gave him and it made for a really fun fight. It was very bullshit because that's just who his character was.

402
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:13,000
I was so mad.

403
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:20,000
But there was a downfall to him and that was the only thing he had. He had no unique spells of his own. So as long as the players didn't cast spells he couldn't do anything.

404
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:23,000
Yeah. But when you've got two magic users who are...

405
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:32,000
When you cast disintegrate twice, it makes for a fun character that can then cast disintegrate twice.

406
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:37,000
No, I'll tell you the worst part was when he started being able to roll for wild magic surges.

407
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:39,000
I was so pissed about that.

408
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:57,000
Yeah. Well I was like part of it too and this is kind of going back to themes when you're talking about creating your villain. He was very much sort of the low end or like the evil manifestation if you will of everything the campaign was about which was like kind of referencing like a great movie.

409
00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:02,000
Anything, everywhere, all at once. Phenomenal movie by the way if you haven't seen it I highly recommend it.

410
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:07,000
I love that we keep hyping up very very popular works of media on this podcast.

411
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:16,000
Go watch it. It was phenomenal if you haven't. But that was very much the idea the campaign is that you can go anywhere anytime and meet any litany of different people.

412
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:25,000
So I'm like what kind of a villain then do I put in that kind of a setting where the players can literally be exposed to anything at any given time.

413
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:29,000
And it was a character that embodied that to the worst extent.

414
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:37,000
Like having somebody that then is going to take advantage of that system and then sort of abuse it to the maximum.

415
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:54,000
Which is being manipulative because he could bribe any number of people from across the multiverse. He had access to a ridiculous amount of wealth and then relying on his powers as a shapeshifter cataloging all these powerful individuals that he's ever met and making those his abilities as opposed to relying on his own.

416
00:49:54,000 --> 00:50:01,000
Same thing with and that's kind of what's difficult about making a BBG for the superhero campaign is there are a lot of goddamn themes right now.

417
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:12,000
Yeah. Like there are a lot of themes that is very hard to find a central theme and so I'm kind of leaning towards having multiple villains in my back pocket because you know the fuck else am I supposed to do.

418
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:27,000
It's also a thing we're playing so many different types of characters in our superhero campaign like everyone in World Serpents while we didn't get along very well there were some similarities between all of us that like kind of came to the forefront.

419
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:43,000
But currently in the superhero campaign it is it is a slew of truly wildly different people with very few things connecting them. Yeah. Other than being like hey let's be on a team together.

420
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:51,000
So how do you how do you balance that how do you like finding in between for that. Yeah I think it's definitely challenged at other DMs who are listening to this are going to be facing.

421
00:50:51,000 --> 00:51:01,000
Yeah I mean I think kind of talking here at the tail end of the villain conversation using villains pro tip using villains as a way to drive your party together and forcing them to work together.

422
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:17,000
It's an incredibly powerful tool. I mean it's nothing bonds people like hate. No swear to God that's how me and my fiance first started like great friends in the beginning was we just we mutually love to fucking hate on people and it was just like the great still do we still do we still do.

423
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:32,000
Don't act like that's in the past tense things to do is to make fun of people together. But anyways yeah like truly nothing brings together nothing brings people together like hate. Yeah it is it is insane it is the quickest way to bond a party it is I've seen it happen at the table.

424
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:46,000
Happened in the first episode of the superhero campaign. No who he was a person I didn't have any issue was a douche bag. The character was very much like a college bro douche bag and everybody the tables like hit him like immediately but he like opened his mouth and like said like.

425
00:51:46,000 --> 00:52:00,000
Some snide comment which wasn't even like that bad compared to some stuff he said later and everyone at the table immediately turned to me because my character was the one talking to him and just goes hit him hit him right now there's nobody around there's no witnesses throw hands.

426
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:21,000
Or if it's like if you have one player who's not super engaged with your campaign or who's having a hard time finding their motivation sort of insert a sort of direct result of that villains actions or have that villain pull a lever behind the scenes that then sort of forces that player into action or gives them an appropriate reason to sort of become activated I guess.

427
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:41,000
Yeah, they are again they're not just supposed to be plot devices but by all means, if you're the one writing the campaign. Use them as such. Yeah, I think there's a balance you can use things as a plot device without them just becoming plot devices, as long as you're balancing them with personality and like their own motivations and life of their own.

428
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:52,000
Like you can have a really cool potted plant is your villain, and it's fine it can be a plot device it could be a potted plant, but like, that's give it personality just a potted plant. Yeah.

429
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:56,000
That was one of my favorite things and like and this is maybe like a theater thing.

430
00:52:56,000 --> 00:53:11,000
Anytime there was like a main character in a show or something but like didn't really do much, but was the main character was like kind of the catalyst would be like cool so they're the potted plant like you could replace this character with a potted plant, and the plot would be the same because I don't add anything to it.

431
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:15,000
They just kind of go around and like things happen to them. Yeah.

432
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:26,000
I think maybe a couple more things and then we'll, we'll cut it out. How do you make a hateable villain. Well I was gonna I was gonna hit one more point on this list and then we can do that so one of the things on this list that I really appreciate that I think we've already talked a lot about is

433
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:37,000
evolution and adaptation so allowing your BBG to evolve as a story adapts, we talked about that towards the beginning but what I like about what it says here at the tail end is sort of learning from their failures.

434
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:53,000
Right, like have them. Yes they have flaws yes they have weaknesses if you've built them correctly but also have them learn from their mistakes, like that's very much how key lawyer was the first couple of combat encounters he had I mean it was very fairly one sided but even even from that one sided perspective

435
00:53:53,000 --> 00:54:14,000
he was always watching and making perception checks to try and figure out how somebody's powers worked or the best way to disable a character paying attention to what damages somebody might be vulnerable to or resistant to so that the next time they have a combat encounter or the next time he sends some goons, he sends the right goons or he prepares the right spells or gets the right artifacts.

436
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:43,000
Like not sending plant creatures after a party where multiple people have the blight spell. Yep, which that wasn't his choice but it happened like that anyways. The other thing with that too is like having them sort of switch tactics like if you have a BBG who's just like a big broad strong dumb brute, like yes it is fun to just have somebody rampage and fucking berserk against a camp like against a party but like that is going to get so old so quick.

437
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:51,000
Yeah, switch it up, give them a fun mechanical advantage unique abilities also feel free to change the terrain when they're around.

438
00:54:51,000 --> 00:55:05,000
Like I think a really cool way to is to have them prepare environments to fight their like to fight your players in and having that be what changes out there mechanics like I just came fresh off of Spider-Man 2, great game.

439
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:20,000
Craven is absolutely I mean anybody that's read Marvel Comics knows Craven is like he's a hunter and he's like that guy he hunts motherfuckers for sport, doesn't matter how big strong powerful superpowers they have and his like penultimate challenge that one hunt.

440
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:35,000
Yeah, the one hunt that he loved the most was like Spider-Man with the symbiote and it gets to the point where as you progress through the game, he sort of pokes and prods Peter into environments where he knows he's going to have the advantage.

441
00:55:35,000 --> 00:56:00,000
He's going to be a hunter that's what he does like he's going to set up a sniper's nest he's going to have a bell nearby that the symbiote is weak to he's going to have things that overwhelm Peter's like Spider-Man's spider sense by having multiple small like sort of goons in the area that are all going to trigger that off at once so that when he's in the back firing his rifle or taking his big shot the player in this case Spider-Man will be overwhelmed.

442
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:05,000
Have your villain make a little spend time DIY and Pinteresting a little.

443
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:07,000
We just had that happen like two sessions ago.

444
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:08,000
Yeah.

445
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:16,000
I fully had an idea that a particular character once they had checked that my villain was at the top of this building was going to come bolting at me.

446
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:18,000
Crazy choice.

447
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:30,000
She was she's a character that very much I mean we just recently found out that she has a very like intimate knowledge of each player in her mind.

448
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:43,000
And so has a very good idea of how to counteract them and the only person that really made sense in her mind that was going to try and come for her is the only character that was good aligned enough and angry enough of a person to do it was the shadow who has a pretty distinct weakness to light.

449
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:53,000
So in preparation for this particular fight she set up a shit ton of spotlights in the room so that when he showed up to try and confront her motherfucker got hit with spotlights and almost died.

450
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:55,000
I mean she also almost died in that encounter.

451
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:56,000
Crazy encounter.

452
00:56:56,000 --> 00:57:02,000
Yeah she almost died in the first the first time I got the user like truly she almost died immediately.

453
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:04,000
Everyone is expendable.

454
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:06,000
Everyone is expendable traps etc.

455
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:08,000
Back to your question.

456
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:10,000
How do you make a hateable villain.

457
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:11,000
Jesus I mean I'm so good at it right.

458
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:13,000
I make hateable heroes truly.

459
00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:16,000
I just make hateable NPCs in general.

460
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:18,000
Yeah.

461
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:20,000
Share your expertise.

462
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:21,000
Share your expertise.

463
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:28,000
I think having villains that are dynamic is a great way to start.

464
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:31,000
So don't just make them evil to be evil.

465
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:40,000
It is very easy to get like kind of roll your eyes and go yeah like it's the Sauron's it's the Voldemort's it's like the guys that are just fucking dicks to be dicks like.

466
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:47,000
They're not hateable so much as they are like a milestone like we got to go slay the big dragon at the top of the hill.

467
00:57:47,000 --> 00:58:08,000
I think how my favorite way to make them sort of hateable is to make them relatable in some aspect like ground them in some true to life person to person characteristic that you know is going to like sort of hit with the party because then it makes that that internal conflict on there and trying to fight that character so much more difficult to do.

468
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:24,000
Yeah, I think having your villains be smart is another really great way to make them hateable like do like it's perfectly good and well to throw sort of big large boulders with a lot of hit points and very big attacks at people and just kind of have that be like the character.

469
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:33,000
It's another thing to have like a villain that sits and waits outside of somebody's house and like surveils them or learns intimate details about their personal life.

470
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:36,000
Trauma is definitely one of the best ways.

471
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:50,000
Go after their loved ones go after the family members go after their friends they're like NPCs sabotage them in key moments like have your villain be their number one hater in some way or another.

472
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:51,000
That's your catchphrase.

473
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:54,000
Make them petty make them a hater make them smart.

474
00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:58,000
That is a like perfect recipe to making a hateable villain.

475
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:09,000
Because they're never you're never gonna if you're playing it smart you're never going to provide them with an opportunity to just outright beat your villain you're never going to give them the one up in a situation because you're never going to either never going to have one.

476
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:14,000
You're always going to take shots at the things that they care about the most to try and break the character because I mean that's play dirty.

477
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:18,000
I basically that's what does some dirt in their eye.

478
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:20,000
Yeah, like hundred percent sling mud.

479
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:22,000
No holds bar just be a bitch.

480
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:37,000
Be a straight bitch. I found another way to make them hateable is to just make them really powerful make them incredibly difficult to damage or to interact with like give them a mechanic or a shield that makes them invulnerable to like every kind of damage except for one so then you can send them on.

481
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:39,000
That pisses people off at the table so fast.

482
00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:44,000
Or when they roll a 25 to hit and you say that's a miss.

483
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:47,000
That shit pisses people off like no other because it's like are you.

484
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:49,000
This is one of the best roles I've had at this table.

485
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:50,000
I be throwing things.

486
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:53,000
And I don't I didn't I don't hit him on a 25.

487
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:54,000
I don't hit them.

488
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:56,000
No you didn't you didn't hit them.

489
00:59:56,000 --> 01:00:09,000
But for that I would say don't just give them an AC that's like 35 or some shit like give them some mechanic that sort of makes them invulnerable to this or makes players automatically miss when they swing with this type of weapon or this kind of spell.

490
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:11,000
That's sort of a deal.

491
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:12,000
Yeah, it's really it.

492
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:16,000
I mean just one of the things you said earlier about making them true to real life.

493
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:25,000
I think that is the way that I've seen at the table that people hate the quickest just on like shooting is like everyone knows an asshole in real life.

494
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:33,000
Everyone knows and like you most of the time you will have a base level of knowledge of the people you're playing with.

495
01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:36,000
Or maybe that's just our table because we're all very good friends.

496
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:38,000
But most of the time you should.

497
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:42,000
And you know better idea you get of what kind of a villain is really going to get under their skin.

498
01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:46,000
You know people's pet peeves you know the type of people that certain people hate.

499
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:52,000
One of the quickest ways at our table just in general because it pisses people off across the board like kind of misogynistic douchebag.

500
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:53,000
Everyone's going to hate.

501
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:55,000
Everyone at that table immediately jumps on that shit.

502
01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:57,000
Like immediately is like ready to throw hands.

503
01:00:57,000 --> 01:00:58,000
You know what's fun?

504
01:00:58,000 --> 01:00:59,000
What's fun about that?

505
01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:01,000
Kilo was never that stereotype.

506
01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:02,000
No.

507
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:03,000
Never not once.

508
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:04,000
No he was just a creep.

509
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:05,000
Yeah no he was just a creep.

510
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:07,000
He was just always one step ahead of the players.

511
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:12,000
And that's what was most frustrating thing about him is that there was never a way for you all to catch up.

512
01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:14,000
He was just too goddamn smart.

513
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:15,000
He had too long to plan.

514
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:17,000
He was just too good at what he did.

515
01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:20,000
You know and like it finally came down to a big confrontation.

516
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:23,000
So basically find your friends personal weak points.

517
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:25,000
Find them as a real person.

518
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:28,000
Well for one like I'll give a couple examples.

519
01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:30,000
Dakota is an incredibly caring person.

520
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:36,000
He's very empathetic and he almost always fails some sort of role at the table regardless of the character he's playing to help others.

521
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:39,000
Like he's very much I want to shelter these people.

522
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:41,000
I want to give them mechanical advantages in combat.

523
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:43,000
I want to help them succeed.

524
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:44,000
I want to help them live.

525
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:47,000
I'm going to forgo turns to make sure that they can like do things that are fun in combat.

526
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:48,000
Yeah.

527
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:55,000
So having a villain that then is just like going to harm players in really like sort of evil and malicious ways.

528
01:01:55,000 --> 01:01:59,000
It's always been a really easy way to piss him off as a player at the table.

529
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:00,000
Yeah.

530
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:02,000
Like that's what Kilo in particular.

531
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:04,000
I remember one that final combat he had a choice.

532
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:08,000
And it was either to go after Kilo or revive one of the teammates.

533
01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:11,000
And he was like I straight up told him I was like if you hit him there's a good chance you could down him.

534
01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:15,000
But if you do that there's also a really good chance that your teammates going to die.

535
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:16,000
Yeah.

536
01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:18,000
And he was like through like very upset at what the decision he had to make.

537
01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:19,000
He was like fuck it.

538
01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:20,000
I'm just going to go for the teammate.

539
01:02:20,000 --> 01:02:21,000
Yeah.

540
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:25,000
You know like just you know what whatever teammate it is.

541
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:31,000
And like having players make those decisions can feel a little bad sometimes from the deems perspective.

542
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:37,000
Like as much as I enjoy making those villains it does kind of hurt to like as an empathetic person myself.

543
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:43,000
I don't like when my players get that upset at me or when they get upset as players.

544
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:45,000
But sometimes that's like the best way to make a villain hateable.

545
01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:47,000
Make them upset in real life.

546
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:53,000
For Madison it's having character having villains that directly thwart what her character does mechanically.

547
01:02:53,000 --> 01:02:54,000
Yeah.

548
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:55,000
That shit breaks me.

549
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:56,000
She's very min maxi.

550
01:02:56,000 --> 01:03:02,000
She's very like I got a particular build and I can't wait to use it in combat and encounters and role play.

551
01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:04,000
So make a villain that just says no.

552
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:05,000
Yeah.

553
01:03:05,000 --> 01:03:07,000
Make a villain that just says no.

554
01:03:07,000 --> 01:03:08,000
You got magic.

555
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:09,000
I got better magic.

556
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:11,000
That shit pissed me off so much.

557
01:03:11,000 --> 01:03:13,000
You're really great at performing.

558
01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:16,000
I can turn myself into any being at any time.

559
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:19,000
It was so fucking infuriating.

560
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:23,000
And then like for I mean Jesus Christ the other people at the table.

561
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:24,000
I don't have to go down the whole list.

562
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:31,000
But like those are just two really great examples of like have your villains be like the antithesis to your real life players.

563
01:03:31,000 --> 01:03:32,000
Yeah.

564
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:33,000
You know.

565
01:03:33,000 --> 01:03:36,000
Because like very quickly patterns will emerge the way that certain people play.

566
01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:44,000
And there's like no avoiding or escaping that because even if you're playing like characters that are so completely different there's going to be timelines.

567
01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:51,000
The shadow to charge at the antagonist and a couple of counters ago Prodigal is that like I knew that the character he was playing and who he is in real life.

568
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:55,000
He was going to get pissed off the second I downed like the children in the party.

569
01:03:55,000 --> 01:03:56,000
Yeah.

570
01:03:56,000 --> 01:04:01,000
You know like the fucking 18 year old and the 20 year old get sniped and he goes no.

571
01:04:01,000 --> 01:04:08,000
The second that second they went down he was like I'm going to make the decision for the next several rounds of combat to just sprint up this building and try and one V one or.

572
01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:09,000
Yeah.

573
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:13,000
You know go your players go for the play dirty.

574
01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:16,000
That's the soft spots baby.

575
01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:20,000
The the moral of this is be fucked up.

576
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:22,000
Be fucked up.

577
01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:26,000
I do want to ask you something really quick before we end so I feel like I've talked a lot.

578
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:30,000
What do you enjoy the most about interacting with villains at the table.

579
01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:34,000
I really enjoy the the moments outside of combat.

580
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:39,000
I think that that build because I'm someone who I'm very story driven and I'm very for the plot.

581
01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:48,000
I make dumb decisions as a character because I think that it would be good for the plot makes fantastic role playing like that's that's my stick as much as I enjoy combat.

582
01:04:48,000 --> 01:05:07,000
So the moments that you get to interact with a villain when you are not fighting are always where like the meat lies for me because that's when you get to know the motivations and that's when you create this like complex morality because I don't think it's as fun to have a story where it's just like OK cool I'm Harry Potter.

583
01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:08,000
That's Voldemort.

584
01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:15,000
There's no room for like a conversation about morality or like maybe there is good in him or like is what we are doing right.

585
01:05:15,000 --> 01:05:16,000
There's no room for that.

586
01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:18,000
He's a Nazi. You kill him.

587
01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:41,000
He he wants to eradicate races versus a villain where you get to interact with and be like OK here's some like parallels or like any time that you're dealing with like a villain who has like a purse like a personal connection to your character is always really interesting to me because it creates an uncomfortable feeling in me as a player.

588
01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:58,000
I like being like like the evil uncle you know. Yeah it's like this like uncomfortable feeling too of like I don't know what all you know about me and that's scary and that creates like a moment of like uncomfortableness which I think is fun because I like I'm an actor and I like to live in that.

589
01:05:58,000 --> 01:06:01,000
That was the worst sentence I've ever said in my life.

590
01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:04,000
That made me want to bash my head on the wall.

591
01:06:04,000 --> 01:06:17,000
Go back to another point we talked about earlier with themes prodigal is very much like the first the sort of antithesis to the first big theme that we fit in the campaign which is how do you balance a life between like a person and a hero.

592
01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:26,000
Yeah. And the one thing that she sort of hits at the most with the party at this point is that she knows everybody so intimately.

593
01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:37,000
Yeah. What does a hero do when their identity has been sort of handed like I mean yeah just straight up handed or taken or stolen or surveilled by a villain.

594
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:46,000
What do you do like how how far will you go to protect your loved ones. How paranoid will you become. How far will you fall morally ethically. Yeah.

595
01:06:46,000 --> 01:07:05,000
You know and that's already beginning to happen with some. Yeah. And it's like a really scary thing and it's kind of similar or at least for my character is similar in to the last campaign because Keely was also a character who knew Magnolia the character that I played very very well.

596
01:07:05,000 --> 01:07:22,000
Like and it was this thing of like this paranoia that starts to seep in of like I don't know because I'm playing to both of these characters are people who don't fully know themselves and to have a character that like foils out of like I know so much information about you whether or not it's correct is debatable.

597
01:07:22,000 --> 01:07:35,000
And like it's fucked up way there's almost like some sort of kinship between the two of those people then. Yeah. It's like no this person's doing terrible things to me and is wrecking my life but they're also one of the only people that like know everything about me.

598
01:07:35,000 --> 01:07:46,000
Yeah. And I think that's one of the most interesting things is when you can find a way and what I like to do is find a way as a player to also like because a villain needs good guys a villain needs someone to stop them.

599
01:07:46,000 --> 01:08:04,000
Yeah it's the whole like if without superheroes it wouldn't be super villains. Yes. It's the power that incites the power to then sort of fight against. Yes. And I as a player because I'm really thematic and everything I always lean and gravitate towards okay what does my character need or want for this villain from this villain.

600
01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:25,000
And I always try to like find something there because I think it makes for a kind of dynamic role play and just kind of like interesting motivations and also can help counteract accidentally killing a villain too early because sometimes you kill a villain too early and they were a really cool character and you don't want to like give that up yet because you were having fun with it.

601
01:08:25,000 --> 01:08:41,000
So you go on a whole new arc and you're like we're bringing him back. Yeah. Right. Conning or just saying the last two sessions. They didn't happen. Yeah. No. Between you and me. I'm underwriting the events of the last like 20 like 48 hours gone didn't happen.

602
01:08:41,000 --> 01:08:55,000
We're going back to when everything was happening. Thank you all for joining us in another episode of Table Talk all about villains who the fuck knows what we'll talk about next time. Bye bye.