Hello players who try to play chaotic neutral but always end up playing
waffle neutral and DMs who write character backstories that'll make the opening
crawl on Star Wars look like a one-liner. Welcome back to Table Talk. Welcome back.
I'm Maddie and I'm Robert. What do we have on the dot is docket the word? I feel like I've
said this on the podcast before. Docket's the word. Okay. Yep. On today's docket we're
talking about how to ethically DM and how to like be a moral player which sounds
like a very heavy subject. I think what was the title for the episode? It was like
chaotic good players in a lawful evil DM. Yeah so it's just gonna be talking
about like how to be a good person as a player where to draw the line as a DM so
like my first note was does racism have a place at the table? Which is you can't
say it's not a heavy episode and then start with that. Yeah for sure for sure is.
But like racism in particular we've talked about this before several times
like why do some DMs or universes in the fantasy world insist on having
racial tension and racial relations that are negative. But I think part
of that it's kind of two-sided in the sense that like on one hand why does it
have to be at the table and why does it why does it belong in fantasy but I
think the other thing is like as much as we love to think that fantasy is so
like different and far removed from us the one thing that we as like a common
people have always done is discriminate against people that don't look like us.
Yeah and so I think it's incredibly hard to write a fantasy world where at
minimum there's not like family against family or tribe against tribe like that
tribalism us versus them is always there it just starts to feel a little
gross when you like when it's just straight up racism. Yeah and when you're
reading a source book and it says like members of this race tend to fall in
this mentality. I think that. We tend to get shit on by others because of the
adherents it's like. And then even in some source books I'm not gonna name names
but there's a little box. Yeah we might have read a few of them on the pocket.
That says here's what this race thinks of other races. That's crazy to me. Or here's
the moral tendencies of this particular race like I don't know fucking this
isn't true but like kinkus it might say like on a little text box next to them
kinkus tend to be like chaotic neutral or chaotic evil because of and then
insert something fucked up about how they look like birds to everybody else. Yeah.
Or it's like dark elves tend to be lawful evil because they've been
discriminated against by serving the dark lords like dumb shit like that. Yeah
and it's a thing where like most I say most every instance of D&D that I've
encountered in my life and like that I've talked to people in their tables and
the way that they play. None of that really has a place at the table because
there's like all this stuff in the source books that you'll read about like oh
well tieflings are like discriminated against because of their eternal
heritage and their evil and blah blah blah and it's like well I think that like
no matter what race you are in this world you're still a person and I think
that once the whole thing like we're like complicated every race even today
like in real life earth like every group of people has their hillbilly every
group of people has their snob like everyone every race is gonna have their
group of dickheads that just are a little louder than the rest of the people in
the room and so it's really easy to point and go look that's what they're all
like. Yeah I think there's ways that you can subvert it and kind of like make it
funny and game of being like no listen that's okay so yes there's that
stereotype but like 95% of tieflings our infernal heritage actually doesn't come
from like our mom talking a demon. Actually I'm super aware of everything
I'm doing or like yes I'm an oracle or a goblin living in a cave but I'm actually
a clean freak so fuck you. Yeah and I think so the first person that comes to
mind when talking about that is Brennan Lee Mulligan who's done that with several
characters where like they're inherently evil or they have like a more evil or
kind of fucked up characteristic and then like in a one-off funny monologue
he'll be like actually I'm a real person with real feelings yeah and I don't fit
that stereotype. One of my favorites and like this is kind of the reverse of that
it is in fantasy high that like the iconic monologue of like the buddy family
is this like cute little family full of halflings like a nuclear family of
halflings and then you find out they're like hardcore anarchists and he's like
you want to make some bacon and they like Molotov cocktail and they blow the
fuck up out of a police station and like that's another one of those like fun
little subversions of it. Slipping the tropes on their head. This world exists where like he
view halflings and this like oh they're these cute little harmless. Yeah like Lord
of the Rings we're making yeah we're making fucking meat pies and walking
around with Harry toes living in the shire just you know chilling in fucking
hills. Harry toes is foul. Chilling in the hills of round doors you know. Yeah. Nah bitch.
Cook the pigs. I mean agree. Are we gonna see that? No I meant in that situation. Oh!
In that situation. Yeah I totally just meant in that situation. I just meant in that situation.
Jesus. Never mind. Fantasy high god damn. Fantasy high. Strong fucking take dude.
I mean hey listen. I think racism to get back a little bit off of off the range
I think fantasy racism has its place in time. I think there are ways to do it
tactfully and to do it meaningfully. I agree. But when it's just like you're
living in a city that is discriminatory against elves and so 95% of
your interactions in a city as an elf character is just fuck you. We don't like
your kind here. Fuck your ears. Fuck you and your like long life living ass bitch.
Like you're agile. Have fun getting shot in the face agile. Like it's just but
there are sometimes truly we're like that's the fucking feeling is like I
can't step foot in this bitch. No I mean we talked about that and that was it was
something that like kind of came up in our previous campaign with the World
Serpent is we were in Fairhaven and Fairhaven is a predominantly human city
and I was playing a Elphin character and that was so loud. My bad. I use Soda Stream
I'm not. Soda Stream sponsor us. Not sponsored but I absolutely love Soda Stream.
I went to Germany for a week and came back addicted to sparkling water because
I had a soda addiction in the US and then found out that the US charges
probably about three times as more for sparkling water as it does for anything
else that's carbonated or has flavoring in it. So I just yeah because you're one
of like six people that drink it. Yeah well you know it's better than being
addicted to soda so I agree. Anyways I love that Germany is what got you addicted
and not being in the UK for four months. Because Germany listen the UK was like
you can have sparkling if you want to. In Germany it's like you sit down at the
table and they bring you two different bottles one that's sparkling and one
that's not. They don't ask you they just give it to you. Fair enough. That is like
damn this is like healthy bottle service. Anyways now I'm hooked on Soda Stream
because it's the cheapest way to do it. What was I talking about? You were talking about
Oh Jesus Christ. Oh Fair Haven. Yeah Fair Haven. Humans and elves. Yeah I was playing an
elf character and so there were like a few like throwaway comments of like no
you're very recognizable because you're an elf with white hair and you're doing
magic in a place where like yeah there's magic everywhere but not in the way that
you're doing it. And there's a difference between like you stick out because
there are so few of you in a city versus being like well I mean just to
compare it to like American racism. Yeah. Because you look different in the
supermajority because you've been oppressed. Yeah. Right like there's just
there's a big difference in that. And then we ended up going back in time in
this same city and if. What are you doing here. Yeah and it got it got a little
harsh because we had a Seder character. We don't like. Just like starts
walking around and this is a place that's like already like like very very
human. I don't know what the actual stats are on it but like in at our table.
75% I think is what the human population is. But we like buffed it up and it was
like mostly human. So the remainder of the 25% than is every other race. Yeah. So
when a Seder shows up from a like a magical door and so you're rolling up
with a Seder a warforged a high elf and then just a guy. He was just a guy. It's
funny as fuck. And everyone's kind of like no yeah we're gonna take you in for
questioning. It's just a little suspicious you know. Yeah and then it didn't help
that also the Seder immediately like kicks the cop and starts running. Yeah he
just like fucking go kick this bitch and then ran down the street. Before anyone
could say anything and that's how we ended up in jail. And then he ended up
performing his way out of prison as a goat god of death and scared the police
department so bad that they let him leave. He killed a man via heart attack. It
was wild. It was very wild and then actually ended up becoming his final.
That was his final arc. His final arc was actually achieving that status in
Theros. But anyways I think that's that's kind of a fun segue into ethically
DMing and how to like when in where to stick to your rules of a particular
universe. So going hey guys this is a fun fantasy universe but also you all
just showed up with the most like chaotic group of people that would stand
out like a sore thumb in the middle of a city. Like they're in a costume. Homegirls
in a jester costume it's not subtle. So obviously cops are gonna come in and
question you because number one it's a city and a super majority of humans and
at the time that you all went to it was even more human than anything else. Yeah
and then y'all just showed up through a fucking magical door. It started being
loud as shit like like fucking questioning a flower shop owner and then
of course the cops show up and they're like hey guys what the fuck is this?
Where were y'all from? Yeah you haven't seen one of you before. Yeah and then of
course the goat jumps up and then kicks a man in the chest and leaves. But like
that was a moment for me where I was like I could have just been like the cops
aren't really a thing or like it's a fantasy universe who gives a fuck if a
goat shows up in the middle of the street. But also I like to play a little
bit more realistic and kind of like a hard line what makes sense. A lot of
people call it a head cannon. So like head canning that yes the cops don't like
people with like goat hooves. Question is it head canning if you're the DM? I think
sometimes it is though. I think no I guess that's fair because it's it's a
line though because sometimes you'll set rules in your universe and then have to
head cannon them differently or head cannon them away. Yeah. Well the other
thing too is like this power says that I should be able to jump 75 feet. Can I do
that? That's a lot. And head canning and it's like where you're standing and the
like state that you're in realistically no. You're at one HP you've just been
brought back from the dead and now you want to jump 75 feet like vertically
like you're in healthy state. No incorrect you can give me like a dexterity
saving throw but I'm not just gonna let you do it like that for me is what the
head canning is I guess. So figuring out where like magic meets the realistic
side of like being an adventurer in a stressful situation. There was a way of
like not to take it back to like constantly examples from like our own
experiences but that's how I as a person learn and relate to things. There was a
moment where my character had a wild magic surge rolled and was basically like
cool if you die with him in X like minute you're gonna come back to life
you reincarnate. Fully different body and whole new yards. And I was just about out
of spell slots and we were at a like tough point and so I was like cool I
think the best way for me to get my spell slots back is to kill myself and
then come back and I did and then you were like okay I know you want to cast
spells I'm gonna need a long rest before you cast spells because you just
died like killed yourself went on like a whole like one-on-one conversation with
an ancient god and then came back to life. And like that's something that like
makes sense and that's like I think that's bound in like rules of like
whatever universe that you've created. Yeah but I think where it gets and this
is kind of where the the ethically DMing is part of the sort of episode idea
comes from is there's there's a line that you kind of have to learn as a DM when
to fudge your own rules and when to just let things go versus when to stick to
them. Like if your players are say they're in their first like their very
first combat encounter and they're all looking like they're about to get fucked.
This is a time where no you didn't have an NPC set up for this encounter because
you wanted them to do it themselves but now you're gonna bring in a really cool
NPC to come and help them and then maybe even like push the story forward to give
them a character to latch on to versus like if you do one extra point of damage
on this damage roll this player is gonna go down and that's gonna fuck up the
whole encounter for everybody. Maybe they do like two points less damage just to
give them an opportunity to get out of the space. I think a lot of times some
DMs get really really caught up on setting hard and fast rules that they
refuse to break like not fudging rolls or not altering combat encounters or not
changing the DC for a particular check. Like sometimes most of the time I'll say
give me a check and I don't even tell them what the DC is because I just want
to know what they're gonna get. Yeah. Like I almost never give DCs because I
just don't it's not that I don't believe in them I just I can't lie or fudge or
make a more fun experience for them if they know that they haven't met that DC.
I as a player prefer not hearing the DC. And sometimes I will give it like I'll
give one to them like if it's like a big moment like again Dimension 20 like
Box of Doomroll. Yeah. At that point I'm okay giving a DC or giving a hard line
or a threshold or a really specific rule like when it comes to really tense
moments where this is like the very like peak of the story or the big combat
encounter and like this role is gonna decide everything I'm less likely to
fudge those than I am just like getting people through the story or giving them a
cool moment but like yeah most of the time I don't give people DCs. I'm just
like roll roll a check if it's you know say they get an 11 and this is something
that like realistically they would have had to get at least a 20 on you know a
little bit but not a lot. But if it's something I really really want them to
know and in my mind the DC was 15 and they hit a 14 I'm like bucket you know
what they're smart people I'm gonna give it to them anyways. Yeah. And so that's
kind of where figuring out for one what kind of a sort of oh how do I say this
what standard do you want to set for your universe when you go out and make it
like the one that we're playing and now is a lot less intense in some ways I
mean it's there's certainly been combat encounters in story moments that
happen very intense. We've died so many times. Yeah you have gone down a lot of
times but in my mind that had that's happening because your first time
heroes. Yeah. Your heroes that don't know what you're doing and figuring out how
to interact as a group like even in combat you all still very much interact
in a solo way you don't really fight together you fight separately. Yeah. And
so part of that punishment then for me as a DM is like having you all go down
more giving you tougher encounters to force you all to think together as a
group because that's ultimately what like a party or a group of superheroes
has to reach. Like the Avengers don't get good at their job until they work
with each other again and again and again and again and learn how to play
off of one another but like for the most the part I like to keep things kind of
more light fresh like there have been several times where people have come
close to almost like fully dying like dying dying in this campaign already in
the first couple combat encounters we've have and I'm just I'm not gonna let
them get to that point like I've had players like so could I have really died
there. No like I'm not no we're literally like characters or six seven eight
sessions in you're barely hitting like story like we're just starting to get
some momentum on story points I'm not gonna fucking one off your character
yeah on the third combat encounter like there's just no reason for me to do that
and that's where I feel like ethically DMing really comes into play like also
just be a decent person yeah and I think something I've seen when it comes to like
fudging roles as well is like combat and health and HP and stuff I've seen quite a
few people on TikTok because both of us are on D&D TikTok talking about how like
some DMs won't set a like HP for their their like monster like whatever
encounter that they're fighting and we'll just add up all of the damage that
the PCs are doing and then just kind of call it when it feels right yeah yeah
yeah quite a few times for for big bosses in particular yeah that's where
that runs in like super clutch because it's like I could give this creature
that realistically has like 500 health 500 health or I could just be like how
many like big hits do you all get on him before he goes down or before he starts
like having sort of disadvantage in combat and that to me feels a lot more
fun yeah I think that stuff is really fun and I also think it's something we're
like if you originally set like a max HP or something like that and then if three
of your players crit immediately you'll free to fuck that combat encounter is
about to like be a hell of a lot shorter than you free to up it maybe like
that's when you hit like Dark Souls second phase shit like oh you thought
you got him the first time now we get bigger and does more damage back yeah
you're fighting a Hydra surprise yep for the same way that you can bring in PCs
in or give players like a ridiculous amount of damage because you know they're
gonna be able to survive the combat counter if you don't you can also do the
opposite which is I want this thing to be more fun and last longer yeah or you
bring in goons that's one of Robert's favorite things to do is you've got the
big guy and then you've got a million little guys that keep fucking showing up
just a few big guys and then players started to complain that they wanted goons
to fucking dick on so I was like all right here are some goons to dick on but
I'm not just gonna get rid of my big guy five goons and a crack in yeah but
that's more fun for me because then I still get to have my fun as the crack
in that it has a long like a fucking laundry list of spells and you all get
to have your fun to tap and goons yeah it still allows us to have fun so yeah
just switch a little bit from the DMs I feel like I've already talked a lot how
do you manage that then unlike how to be like a good person as a player especially
when we kind of talked about this I think last episode of the episode
previous when you have yourself playing a character that is not an inherently
good person yes it's it's one of those things where it's tricky because like all
the things I've talked about of like staying in character and finding your
character and blah blah blah blah blah kind of go out the window a little bit
when you're playing an evil character like you have to be aware that you are
someone playing at a table and also be aware of your character so this one
affect other people yeah I would suggest if you're like first getting into D&D I
cannot highly suggest enough playing a like morally a little bit more of like a
morally aligned character like a good character simply because it is easier
because when you're getting into like playing a fucked up person how do you
like how do you be evil but also still be like a good player because it is a
team game you have a party that you were supposed to be helping and so you have
to like kind of actively think about okay what is actively going to help the
people at my table and like the other PCs but is still true to who my character
is and it's a really tricky line to toe if you are playing like for example if
you're playing like a what's a like more fucked up alignment not like chaotic
evil chaotic evil crazy to be playing a chaotic evil character but if you're
playing a chaotic evil character in a party full of people who are not chaotic
evil you're gonna have a really fucking hard time you're gonna have a difficult
time because it's like okay especially when you consider like chaotic evil is
like I go around and kick puppies and burn down just because it's fun it's the
Joker uh-huh it's crazy so it's like how do you put like Batman in the Joker in
the same party and like have them work together and bond and like I think the
easiest way to do it like Superman in the Joker because that's like Paladin and
somebody's chaotic evil yeah yeah and that's something that I think is really
difficult and I think that there's some like easy cop-out ways for it I think
you can make like the party be like the people you actually like and you take
out all of these chaotic evil things on other people but then don't be a fucking
murder hobo and don't like I am that's another kind of like real for players
and like don't be a dick because we talk a lot about don't be a dick but what does
it mean not be a dick at the table yeah don't go around just feel fun yeah don't
take away other people's moments and like insert yourself yeah I think the only
time you really need to be playing like a true like chaotic evil character and
you're open it's another thing if you're playing a secretly evil character
which is a whole nother ballgame yeah having an all-terrier motive is so much
different than just being a dick from the rip yeah like it's it's sometimes
twists are a little bit annoying and overly cliche but like it's it's a very
different situation if you're playing a lawful evil character who masquerades
is like a lawful good character and is maybe has a goal of like stealing the
crown jewel the whole time or like they know that in a really crucial key moment
they're gonna let all the other players go yeah and then trying to like string
them along for the campaign because then it's like a fun game of like detective
yeah and then it's like holy shit didn't see that twist coming yeah which is a
DM that twist can only happen once because your other players are not gonna
then bring that person back into the fold no if you if you set one player up as
a fucking spy from the get-go and then they they do like their big reveal
moment and then try to kill all the other players that shit's happening once
that's happening once happening once you're getting fucking jumped yeah that's
going to PVP that spy character may or may not die regardless they're
skedaddling and you're making a backup character person that was a spy but you
can also have a journey of you can start off playing an evil character with
ulterior motives and then maybe you start to actually like the journey and then
maybe you decide that these guys aren't that bad and that you'll help them that's
where it's like I would save every one of these players if it meant like if the
alternative was like sacking the world yeah yeah that's when that like ulterior
bad person motive turns into just like I'm gonna make the decisions that other
people don't want to make I'm picking my friends any day of the week yeah and I
think one of the like funniest things and one of my favorite ever is like
that team and Bahamut fight when y'all like this is not worth it yeah skedaddle
it happened so many times in our first campaign y'all this ran y'all like so
many times we were just like I'm gonna cut my losses this is not my fight this
is not worth me this realm can get KO'd I'm gonna go that should happen and like
we even had it set up for a little bit where it was almost like it looked like
there was a possibility of like it going PvP with like a spy character because
one of the characters was brought into the party with the like the entire task
of kidnapping and subverting them one of the characters party yeah but then he
ended up like basically falling in love with that character wait which one
London I was talking about Caliban London oh well I mean oh then there were two
there were two kind of there were two that were basically supposed to like fuck
up Caliban in particular though yeah yeah Caliban's literal task from the like
the bad guy was hey he had to go kidnap this girl two separate players okay neither
one of them worked they both just got folded into the party immediately I
tried so hard I set up two characters with like full motivation to do the wrong
thing and neither one of them stuck to it yeah and it's one of those things were
like a mother fuckers I'm listen Magnolia was just that she was just that girl
she was also one of those things you're all friends in real life and so it's
real you forget about the fact that you're supposed to be at your core evil
person when you're just having a good time we have friends yeah and that's fine
let that happen and it was one of those things of like the the character
Caliban immediately found like a new thing that he was like actually I am
worried I want to become rich yeah he's like it's a 180 out of nowhere and was
just like capitalistic yeah you know what's more fun than getting like my own
ranch in a separate universe what if I just introduced capitalism to like the
multiverse and be at the center of that scheme wild uh-huh wild situation it was
wild as fuck but like even with the first one immediately just getting like
folded into like the party and it's something we're like even if you have
and like one of my favorite tropes ever is like reluctant bad guy we're like
reluctant like when you're watching a show and it's like okay the bad guy has
to team up with the good guys and they don't want to be there and the good
guys also don't like working with them but they have the same goal that you
have so it's just and I think that that's something very fun that you can play
at the table which is like I don't want to be here I don't want to do this but
motherfucker I have to so I guess I'm gonna heal you and I guess I'm gonna like
put all these protection spells on you and I guess I'm gonna like lay down my
life for you it was like we got a offer for dogged on this guy but we got to
keep him alive he's crucial to all the info like he's the key to all the
information that we need to know so like we've downed him but now how do we keep
him alive when there are other combatants in the game including a player
that's just determined to see him die yeah and that was another moment of like
I think there's ways for you to ethically have PvP at the table other than
just like straight box in each other yeah and that was something we had a lot in
our last campaign just going back and forth on like objectives is like is one
that's a really easy way to do it without having to introduce straight up
like combat v combat just having players at the table that have like
contradicting goals they're gonna intersect at some point and when that
happens it can be fun and there's ways for you to be a little like evil and a
little fucked up without taking an out on your party members if you have a
completely ulterior motive and it's something that goes against what the
rest of the party wants try to convince them well that's that's a whole
another like thing that you can do as a player yeah that happened with me in this
in the campaign that I'm still in I played a paladin and well still I'm still
playing a paladin paladin with the redemption oath which basically is like
you're a Jedi but it's the extreme to which you won't even kill bad guys like
Jedi I'll still cut a set in half like there's no qualms about what they'll do
with the lightsaber they just try to do it from an emotionless objective
perspective trying to be yeah trying to be like good people my guy was just like
I'm not gonna let anybody die I'm not letting the goblin die like I was hard
like started the campaign which I talked about this a couple sessions ago I've
ended up in a very different place to the point where I've been smited by my
patron god but I started as like I'm not gonna let anybody die everybody can be
redeemed you can you can turn them around and set them on the right path I
turn a couple of cobalts that were eating people like cannibalistic style
cool a couple of tinkers and we have them in our house and they make shit for
us now I call them the Teenage Mutant Ninja cobalts because that's literally
all they're there for they've been reformed Jerry he used to eat people
sorry I've got a list I've got him now he now he makes weapons of mass
destruction for us in the free time so that we know I took tinkering
he makes like cute little like they made me a suit when I like yeah it just
depends truly like they're artificers genuinely like there's one main guy
that's smart and the other two are stupid so it's just like he he sends them
to go do what they need he'll make that they go shopping for us all the time
it's funny as fuck but anyways the other one of the other characters in the
player or one of the other players in the campaign was like lawful evil or
chaotic evil and wanted to like find the seedy underground and like work for the
big boss and at one point was like I have a job let's go do it and I was like
being naive sure let's go do the job yeah and then it turned out we had to
kidnap somebody and then sell him to another like another organization Jesus
and it very quickly turned into like this is gonna be combat like I'm I'm
asking you player-to-player roll fucking initiative because I'm sticking to this
you are not selling a man I don't care what the reason is he's like no no no
like there's a reason I promise like you just get through the fucking deal and
we'll talk about it after knowing no hey this shit sucks do you have something
you want to send in to make it better criticisms topics you'd like to see
discussed or an advertisement you'd like to run maybe you even want to sponsor an
episode if so shoot us a message at MC460 at evansville.edu or DM us on
Instagram at Crescent magazine or we'll never get better like these fucking
guys absolutely not and that's one of the things of like the good good ways for
PvP to emerge is is from like objective and from like motive and everything but
the thing that get that got hard about that was I could see genuine frustration
from him as a player because he had so many goals that he knew if I was along
for which we're a party of like three so we go everywhere together anytime I was
present or with him or around him I was ultimately gonna be the foil to his plan
yeah like every time and that's one of those things where like as players you've
got to find ways to kind of like figure out and address it and if you and I mean
you could do that with a one-on-one conversation with the other player for
sure but I think there's also ways of like I'm not like lying to your party
all the time but like lie to your party tell them that you're doing something
different so when the person you're lying to has like a plus nine to insight
like half fun well yeah like it just it gets tricky though like genuinely and
there was a point where I was like I don't want to keep like you have it on
a point in here like don't don't talk don't insert yourself in another person's
like peak story moment or emotional moment and I could see that there was
genuine frustration with him because there were a few big moments where I was
like I cannot let this happen and I stuck to it I think looking back at it a
little too much yeah like I think there were definitely a few moments where I
could have been like I'm just gonna turn to blind eye I really like you as a
person like I easily could have pivoted that I'm gonna let nobody do wrong into
I'm gonna redeem you as a player yeah I'm gonna let you do what you're doing but
then I'm gonna like read the tear Bible to you at night and we're gonna we're
gonna figure this out where I can fit you and I didn't I was just like nope not
gonna let it happen and I mean it's something you'll always have characters
that you look back on and you're like oh I should have played that better which
this character has gone through such a wild arc I mean he went from that to like
I'm just gonna murder people because the world clearly has no consequences for me
I can do no wrong to I don't have any eyes God complex real quick which is I
don't have any eyes anymore and I'd like to get them back someday so I'm that's
fair I'm a chill I'm gonna stop hitting people I'm not gonna lose the attitude
but I'm gonna stop killing people that's fair like but anyway how do you be a
good player because we talk about not being a dick a lot yeah a good player to
me as a player like from another player is someone who is supports like what
you're trying to do or can you pick up on like what you're trying to do your
objectives roleplay better yeah aids in your story and like just kind of like a
support is genuinely like the biggest thing yeah if you see that a player is
like really trying to do something or this is something that's so clearly
important to the character and they keep bringing it up and bringing it up and
bringing it up help him out a little bit you as a player helping them out that's
what I think makes you a good player and like not always choosing yourself over
another character because I think some of the most impactful moments in D&D are
when you pass the baton or past the moment when you help somebody in that
someone else yeah hundred percent and so I think that like just considering
other people truly I think is like the biggest thing that you can do to be a
good player and I like I like providing concrete examples so I think a really
good example of that could be and I don't have a situation in mind but like
with the Paladin I know there have been a couple times where like we have we have
like a where bear character who's like whole subclass class has been basically
homebrewed because he wanted to basically just play a fucking bear and he gets
angry a lot like he he has I don't think he goes into raids I think he's a
fighter but there have been a lot of moments were like his big like peak
moments were him getting so angry at somebody that he wanted to kill them and
me as a Paladin like the way that I would assist them in those moments as a
player was like okay for this one moment for this one instant I will turn to
blind eye I will help you get what you need and then we're done or like they
as a player what he would like look at me the pleading like I have to kill this
person I have to kill this NPC as a player I really really don't want to but
everything that I've done up to this point means that I have to so then the
way that I kind of try and support him in that moment is I take my character and
put myself directly between his character and the person he doesn't want to
kill yeah and then be like and then it's a fun thing where it's like me like hand
on both chests trying to push people away like listen I'll lay my life in the
line if it means that you don't cross that moral line for yourself yeah and
then like it's a fun like hide of emotion kind of moment for both of us I'm not
taking it away from him he's still doing 95% of the talking in this moment but
I'm gonna insert myself to give him more to go off of and help him as a player yeah
until I continue to aid in his objective and I think that that's like one of the
best things that you can do as a player like for another player and I think that
once again we talked about like playing evilly and like how do you do that and I
think that you can still do that and still aid other people I mean if there's
a moment where like you are like your character the first person that came to
mind was Ricky I'll talk about Ricky when you get down here right Ricky to me is
that person oh my god Ricky is a minute I love Ricky but if you as a player are
playing like a character who is your entire year your oath of revenge
Aladdin you're good and Robert just kicked the fuck out of me for anyone
listening yeah oath of revenge you were trying to kill this one person but you
know that like you're a relatively with like the exception to this guy you're a
normal person and someone else in your party is like recognizes okay maybe this
person has like an evil character and trying to figure out a way to get this
player to stop killing this other like the bad guy being like okay they've got
valuable information I'm gonna hold the PC back and let them like and kind of
what you were talking about I'm like due to talking and being like okay but also
like I'm still gonna get my kind of like motive and objective in there and I
think that there's lots of ways to do that keep them alive just long enough to
get your shit just you know shit over with and you're done but the doing the
the trope of like doing the right things for the wrong reasons are doing the
wrong things for the right reasons like playing that evil character that's like
willing to do what other people won't Ricky is like fucking textbook example in
my mind Ricky is an NPC in our newest campaign about superheroes he's best
friends with Dakota who's playing Sebastian they both come up in like this
area called the Eastern fringes which is basically just like a really low kind of
impoverished industrial area and Sebastian's character is like more of on
the up and up he doesn't really get involved in crime he doesn't really give
into the local gangs he very much is just like there to help his aunt and his
sister Ricky on the other hand is like actively in the system he's like if it's
not gonna work for me I'm gonna work for it and it's just fully in crime syndicate
trying to get a part of a game like the new crime boss in that area but he's
taking the approach of also like protecting the people in the east the
eastern fringes and he's done it several times now specifically with Sebastian
there have been two moments where Sebastian was gonna die Ricky was in
both encounters and I mean we're a group of superheroes or y'all are a group of
superheroes right so like the goal is to like not kill people ideally just
because there are consequences like some people's goals other people at our
party just don't give a fuck yeah the consequences in this world of killing
people are like the city begins to trust you less and less you all get a negative
PR the police are actively hunting for you versus like the Avengers they're
working with you they're giving you information they call you went on big
jobs you might get called a bootlegger a couple times but guess what people aren't
trying to kill you exactly or arrest you bounty on you so and so forth but Ricky
is one of those characters where it's like my top priority at the end of the
day is like making a bag and keeping my best friends alive and so he has just
flat-out shot two people in the face yeah because Sebastian was about to die
yeah and I think it at the table like Dakota and Sebastian kind of reacts in
this like I can't agree with what's happening but like thank you for keeping
me alive in this moment we're gonna pretend that didn't happen yeah it's a
lot of like kid it's just ignore that mm-hmm and we're gonna ignore the fact
that you are on a massive amount of speed right now but that's like another
one of those instances where you can have characters that are like because I
would consider Ricky like chaotic evil but not in the Joker way more of like an
opportunistic way yeah Ricky at the end of the day will still show up for his
friends and be there for his friends and save his friends but like his his ultimate
into the goal into the line where I want to be he wants to be Convother he wants
to be like on top of the food chain yeah wants to be running the gangs and father
is the like money like the big mob boss yeah got doxed and then outs but like I
would label him chaotic evil but he's still actively performing good actions
for a party and like that's a fun way that you can introduce a character that
has an alignment where instinctively you're thinking there's no fucking way
they're working with the party yeah nobody told Ricky to stop because Ricky
Ricky was helping Ricky was being helpful in that moment not on the way that
they wanted him to be but like the alternative to him not being there and
not doing that was losing a player and that's another thing that you can do
like as a player of being like okay just because you're playing an evil character
or an household character doesn't mean that you can't care about people I think
it is a hundred times more impactful and it is more grounding and it is it is
truer if you do care about people and if you love the people so fucking in your
party it's gonna make things so much easier for everyone involved because you
can do that you can be the like evil little fucked up guy when you're fighting
people you're interrogating people and you're like hey guys don't worry you
don't have to get your hands to the shadow I got this I'm gonna go beat the
fuck out of this person I'm gonna interrogate you here's like it here's a
couple dollars go get yourself ice cream I'm gonna like and that's very much like
a thing that is happening and like our campaign is we've got a character named
the shadow who's diet Batman and like but like a lot and like like tortures and
beats the fuck out of people and then you also have members in the party like
my character nightlight who is just a fucking ray of sunshine and she believes
like you're a baby she's spent one of her entire turns where she could have been
doing some cool shit moving a guy that she knocked out out of the way because
she didn't want to accidentally run him over with a car and kill him because she
would never kill anyone which I love that I love that so I mean we have them at
the table we have what are called heroic moments so the source book that I'm
using I think it's called capes and crooks I did buy it it's fantastic source
book I could have shed on it truly I love everything that's inside of it but one
of the mechanics that they introduced for this superhero universe is heroic
moments essentially whenever a player does something particularly heroic you
say I'm gonna reward you with a heroic moment and they get a d6 they can add to
any role and when Madison slash nightlight made the choice to move the
guy out of the way like spending a whole turn instead of immediately going and
helping her friend I always like heroic moment hundred percent didn't make a
whole lot of sense to some people at the table because they were like everyone
else was just killing bitches yeah but like the fact that you're gonna spend a
whole turn staying true to yourself and your morals doing something not
necessarily heroic but you're not you're taking like the active decision to not
kill somebody for convenience which is very much something a villain would do
or a lawfully ever character would do workout a evil character would do like
heroic moment and I think that's a fun thing about that mechanic in this game
is it gives me a much more direct way to tell people when I think that they're
staying true to their character and when they're performing like morally good or
morally like on the up and up actions whereas traditional 5e doesn't really
have a system for that like one of the things I really like about like kids on
bikes in that system is they do these things called adversity tokens which
you get every time you like you don't fail a role yeah if you fail a role which
is super awesome then you can use those as kind of like points to get yourself up
to another role love to start rolling that inside and I'd love to start rolling
that into some of my campaigns and 5e because I think that's I think it works
I think it's really cool your character is fucked up on six different roles in a
row yeah you're just gonna get tired of it yeah like and I'm ready to like shit
to work yeah and avoid the player fatigue of like and this also I guess kind of
goes back to like fudging roles and like ethical DMing of like if you notice
that a player is really struggling because they just keep like eating shit on
all of their looks like really down on a particular roller is like damn I was
just one-off yeah what fuck it rule of cool you got it dude yeah or even just
reaching out and like this has happened before I the one that comes to mind for
like at our table was like the pirate one shot if I was playing this character
and it was my first time playing anything that was not a spell casting
class I was playing just straight rogue which I don't recommend and we were like
doing some fights and I just I couldn't fucking do anything I could not hit
anything I it was just shit and so Robert had an NPC basically just come in
and be like cool he's gonna stand next to you and fight cuz you need assistance
right now but I'm not gonna verbally say that you need assistance and help right
now but like I'm gonna notice a moment just like shout out to captain not the
full hell man oh my fucking one of my favorite characters I have ever rolled
played it's like if Johnny Depp is like Captain Jack Sparrow like it was on
speed yeah or what he was like more of a direct dirtbag yeah it's like he's every
HR violation and deny that he's cool as shit but goddamn you wouldn't bring him
to it like you wouldn't take him home you wouldn't party you're not hanging out
with him you don't want to tell people your friends with him nope he's your
boss yeah he pays you and he's competent enough yeah hate that he's competent but
it's one of those moments where you're like just helping people out I think is
like the biggest thing that you can do assistance is like a hundred percent key
and when you're talking about being a good player or like an ethical DM like
just don't let people struggle if you don't absolutely have to like there are
times and moments in a story where like that's this is kind of this is like a
thing that a lot of the ends like the joke about any people who play D&D like
trauma is the key way to build a character yeah to an extent like by all
means feel free to step in in in unright a situation so that a character or a
player doesn't have to go through like needless pointless suffering like yes
it can be fun yes it can be cool yes it can make fun character development but
also there's no reason to fucking torture your characters for an entire
campaign just for the sake of doing it yeah and it kind of got to a point in my
first campaign and a little bit in the second one where I just kept throwing
negative consequences in circumstances and backstory points to like certain
characters and I tried to back away from that as time went on because I realized
that I mean dark and gritty universe is fun but we're not playing fucking Warhammer
40k like yeah D&D and it's just a very different situation which my last I
guess my very last point that I wanted to hit on that I kind of talked about the
beginning but I'm just not remembering at the very end there are times when you
have a really clear idea for a campaign as a DM in a setting and your players
have a very different outlook so like I mentioned I like to do hardline rules I
like things to be more realistic and more weighty that's just fun to me I'm
also a difficulty junkie in real life I love playing like Dark Souls I love
playing Last of Us on the hardest difficulty like I just love the stakes
and the consequences and the difficulty but like Madison is not a fan of that
no play style of that I like feel and some other players thrive on fucking
combat and are so here for all the difficult circumstances and just love
to make characters that can like get through that shit but like going into
this campaign I had a conversation with Madison and it was I Madison was like I
would love to have a superhero world that wasn't so fucking dark and full of
like bad shit and is like constantly difficult and like unnecessarily full of
trauma and we've certainly had a couple of points here in the early in the
early stages of the campaign were like it is a little fucked up and it is a little
dark but it is significantly more forgiving of a setting than my previous
ones have been yeah but I'm still having fun and I think that's really important
as a DM to take away like yes you can make concessions for your players and
yes you can write your own universe and be very hardline fast but like at the
end of the day you're playing the game to have fun like it's a game like that's
what it is it is a game system it is a role-playing tabletop game system and so
I think for me what really helps is to have a goal of every session to make
sure that everyone had fun like yeah I had fun that they had fun sometimes there's
a story point that they missed and I'm like fuck it if one of you wants to
sacrifice a thing in this moment I'm like itching to tell you what it is you do
it I'm telling you right now like that this is what it is because it's just like
a fun moment that I want to share with them yeah I think a lot of times DMs get
into this like us versus them mentality and it's or me versus them and sometimes
it definitely is in combat and you don't get like and sometimes that's fun
though where it's like a competition it is fun but then other times it's just
like really man really yeah really I think it's fun to have that mentality at
least from my perspective I think it's really fun to have that mentality during
combat but I think during story moments it's like story moments and like during
like down time and like role-play moments you have to do that yeah it's like
that feels that was unnecessary necessary at all but like my whole point for that
is just to have a conversation with your players as a DM and vice versa to figure
out what kind of a universe you want to have to play in to be in how difficult
do you want it to be how easy do you want it to be like I am queuing up a
couple of ideas for campaigns for not this next semester because that'll be the
second half but the semester after that and a few of my ideas were like to do
two guys in which is a very popular anime last of us which if you all seen the
show played the game the first thing that comes to mind is it's very Game of
Thrones ask where it's like anybody can die there is no good in the world zero
light in anybody's eyes it's all fucking bad every time you think you're gonna get
a sense of like good or happy it's bad again because you live in a real world
with real people and I straight up told them in the little descriptions when
they were choosing which one they wanted to be and I was like last of us is
going to be the most intense campaign we've played so far like it's gonna be
like a you get we're not doing HP you get hit three times by any particular
enemy or three times total in a combat encounter you're down you're infected
yeah like you have at most like a few turns before you will fully turn into an
enemy and it's just gonna be brutal like everyone would have to have backup
characters and so on and so forth versus like the one that we ended up landing on
which is gonna be sci-fi based in Mass Effect universe one of my favorite game
series it's gonna be a fun sci-fi space opera yeah we're not gonna do a three-hit
system people are still gonna have hit points and shields and so on and so forth
and guns and it's gonna be fun but it's not gonna be last of us and I set that
expectation very clearly because I'm not I don't want players to be blind
blinded when they get hit three times by an enemy and then have to fucking kill
their character yeah so just time that conversation so important going in yeah
set expectations expectations in general for everything in life not just andy
but like set expectations for yourself or other people because it just means
that when you finally show up to whatever you're doing the table you have fun
yeah and you're not let down yeah which is very easy to do oh yeah and that was
depressing anything else you want to add before we close things out
um that was just my last little point I know that was a really good point because
one of the things of like there's always like the jokes about like oh there's the
shopping episodes or like the masquerade ball episodes I love those things but I
also recognize that a lot of people at our table that's not their speed and
that's okay but like some people at our table prefer combat and prefer things a
little bit more like intense and gritty and stuff like that and like I think
it's one of the things we're like and I'm just a player so I can't really speak
to this but like as a DM finding that levity and that balance between like
difficult like it a hundred percent is because yeah especially when you're
playing on like a shorter timeline like we just don't there's no guarantee that
everybody is gonna be able to continue making our sessions past next semester so
like I feel the pressure to speed things up and to make things happen kind of
quickly like my last campaign I very much once I knew what the timeline was I
was like here's what's happening in each session generally so that way I can give
these people the ending that they've been wanting for almost two years whereas
this one this is the one universe I think I've made or I've come up with
conceptually where I could play this shit for two or three years and still
not have an ending because there's so much in this world to explore there's so
many heroes so many villains so many organizations like there's just no way
that you all would ever be able to get to the end of this thing without playing
this particular campaign for like multiple years like it's just not gonna
happen and so part of me is like every session needs to be story heavy and
point and point and point and point and point and drive and drive and drive and
that's why it feels like it's still a little bit dark despite the fact that I
wanted to be happy because there's conflict and conflict is naturally gonna
feel heavier than like the lack thereof yeah but it's hard for me to sit down and
be like are we're gonna have a slice of life episode yeah I know I only have four
sessions left with you all and there's no way I'm gonna be able to tie this up
yeah but here's just three or four hours of you all fucking around and doing nothing
I mean that's what we ended up doing during our last campaign is we like set
aside and we got like two like slice of life episodes right before like the big
fight it was like the first time we've been able to have that in that you
won't relax before it all ends yeah and it was fun it was nice I wanted this
last session to be slice of life and then I remembered where we left off that
you left it with a character in a coma character another character dead
and someone just like committed murder yeah I was having a really hard time with
that like I left it in a place where I could not do slice of life yeah I had to
tie off the ends of that because it was like I don't know if we could just like
go to the mall because homeboys in a coma are we like taking him in a coma with
us yeah well my mind I was like they wake up that I'm gonna give them
downtime and all of their normal regular days I'm gonna let them be people and
then maybe they all get coffee or something and then I was like actually
one of them is basically in a coma the other one just committed murder as a
child yeah somebody else is grappling with the fact that they watch somebody
get put in a coma and then there's just a hero guy who's just walking around
looking for parts they're just like a robot me like oh what can I salvage
what can I scrap a wrench that's shiny another guy's like I'm getting so much
more powerful let's find more ways to do that like everyone's in a very different
place yeah and I think that's one of those things that's that's gotta be
tricky as a DM impossible dude because it's already kind of like tricky as a
player when you're like I would love some downtime but also we've got shit that
needs to get done yeah I'm like I don't know how I'm even gonna I wanted this
to this campaign to be like two separate arcs where the first semester was in
awake at first arc in the second was the second nah no it's gonna take both
semesters to get to the first because I'm like we're over three quarters of the
way through the semester and I'm like there there's still two people in this
party that are level three yeah the highest level we have in the party is
seven and we haven't even hit a lot of really big story points yet yeah like
we're just getting introduced to like a big antagonist it's like a side plot to
the whole story yeah there's not a fucking way not a drop I'm like we're
lucky if this fucking redstribe bitch gets resolved by the end of semester two
and it's one of those things we're like you've got to have conversations between
like demon players sometimes would be like okay let's manage expectations because
things have changed hey guys I want I want to let you know that the next three
sessions are gonna be very story-heavy and I'm gonna info dump because I don't
want to waste it but also we don't have time yeah set expectations thank you all
for listening to another episode of table talk I gotta fucking go to work so we'll
see you next Thursday bye bye