1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:29,160 Welcome to the 1740 podcast with me, Alexander Waugh and Maudie Lowe. 2 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:30,800 Hello. Hello, Maudie. 3 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:32,800 We're very, very excited, aren't we, Maudie, today? 4 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:36,560 Yes, we are. Because we've got an incredibly special guest. 5 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:40,600 I can't believe how we've managed to get this guest on today 6 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:46,280 because he is fact, the greatest living Shakespearean actor. 7 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:48,120 It's not a matter of opinion. It's not a matter of opinion. 8 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:50,360 It's a fact. And it's not just me saying it. 9 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:53,000 And millions of people have said it. 10 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,120 And you can find people much more knowledgeable than I am 11 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:59,680 about Shakespeare in the theatre who are absolutely convinced 12 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:03,560 that our guest today is the greatest living Shakespearean actor. 13 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:06,880 And we're going to talk to him about Shakespeare 14 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:11,800 and about his time with Shakespeare and all that Shakespeare means to him 15 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:14,880 and some of the things he's done acting Shakespeare. 16 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:20,200 And possibly we'll even talk a little bit about the identity of William Shakespeare as well. 17 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:24,320 He is, of course, Sir Derek Jacobi. Welcome, Derek. 18 00:01:24,320 --> 00:01:27,640 Thank you very much. We're very honoured to have you on today. 19 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:32,680 My great pleasure. I hope I can live up to that extraordinary introduction. 20 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,200 Well, it's just a fact and I'm sticking with it. 21 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,760 You are the greatest living Shakespearean actor 22 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:44,000 and you have an extraordinary ability to turn Shakespearean words 23 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,000 and speeches into more than music. 24 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:51,280 It's just an unbelievable communication. 25 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:55,680 And a lot of people, as you know, find Shakespeare quite difficult to understand. 26 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,560 Some of the lines are obscure. 27 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:03,320 I've never heard you read or act a single line of Shakespeare 28 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:05,480 that wasn't clear to me what it meant. 29 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,800 And that's a real gift. There are not many who can do that. 30 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:13,320 In fact, a lot of actors, I think, make it even more obscure than it needs to be. 31 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:18,080 But can we can we start by one thing I'm going to tax you on, Derek? 32 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:22,440 I know you've you've you've gone over the the four score years now. 33 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:24,800 So forgive me if this is difficult. 34 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:26,560 I'm going to tax you a little bit on memory. 35 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:33,280 And I was going to ask you, do you actually remember your first encounter in boyhood? 36 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,000 Was it at school? Was it your parents reading to you or whatever? 37 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:39,080 Your first encounter with Shakespeare that was meaningful to you? 38 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:45,680 Yes, my I think my first encounter at school 39 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:48,360 and talk about starting at the top. 40 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:53,520 I played Hamlet at school in the annual school play. 41 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:59,560 And from then on, I was learning a great deal. 42 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:05,720 Somebody I think it was my English master who said treat all the poetry as prose 43 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:08,120 and all the prose as poetry. 44 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:11,200 And that sort of stayed with me. 45 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:13,680 And that's what I tried to do. 46 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:17,200 And and curiously, it it worked. 47 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:23,360 It made some of the most obscure Shakespearean passages clear 48 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:33,320 when when you and when you stop being afraid of it and and just tackled it head on 49 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:38,360 and loved it and enjoyed it and 50 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:43,960 desperately wanted to communicate it and make the audience understand what you were saying. 51 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:47,320 And often it's difficult. It's it's it's hard. 52 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:49,960 But you're doing it for an audience. 53 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:56,920 And if they don't understand what you're saying and what you're thinking and what you're feeling, why do it? 54 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:00,680 Could you remember? I mean, how old were you when you acted Hamlet? 55 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:05,160 I was a teenager. I was 56 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:07,160 I was 57 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:10,680 17, 18. 58 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,800 But can you remember how you got the role? 59 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:18,040 I mean, they must have thought we've got a very exceptional young actor in this school 60 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:20,360 in order to put Hamlet on at all in the first place. 61 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,680 Or did you have to audition against the other boys? 62 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,560 And no, I'd I'd been in school plays. 63 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:29,960 It was my I think it was my last year at school before I went to university. 64 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:33,720 So I was I was I was 18, I think. 65 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:43,160 And I I'd been in several school plays and we had an English teacher who was very keen on theatre 66 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:50,680 and had taken numbers of boys to theatres, particularly the old Vic. 67 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:54,280 So I'd seen quite a lot of Shakespeare, professional Shakespeare. 68 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:57,400 And he cast me as Hamlet. 69 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:04,440 And he also got us on to the Edinburgh Festival, the fringe of the Edinburgh Festival that year. 70 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:14,920 And so I played Hamlet on the fringe of the festival and it was reviewed by professional 71 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:17,000 critics. 72 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:20,200 And they said, look at this. 73 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:27,480 Look at this and the main thing on view with the festival that year was a play called The 74 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:28,200 Hidden King. 75 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:30,600 And it got very badly viewed. 76 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:31,960 The critics didn't like it. 77 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:39,080 And I remember a couple of them saying, look at these kids on the fringe doing this marvelous 78 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:42,760 Hamlet and the professionals mucking it up. 79 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:46,840 So we got a lot of backhanded compliments. 80 00:05:46,840 --> 00:05:58,360 And so I was about to go up to Cambridge and we had a lot of publicity in the papers, in 81 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,080 the Times and the papers. 82 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,520 And so when I went up, I got an interview. 83 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:08,360 I was in what was called the pool. 84 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:17,880 I'd been ill, very badly ill before the examinations for university. 85 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:19,080 And I got in the pool. 86 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,280 They weren't quite sure whether I was university material. 87 00:06:22,280 --> 00:06:27,320 So I got an interview at King's College and an interview at St. John's College. 88 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:35,400 And they had all read these reviews and it did me a lot of good. 89 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:45,320 I eventually was accepted by St. John's and the next three years, I did some academic 90 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:48,920 work, but acted most of the time. 91 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:59,800 There were many acting associations in Cambridge and there was, of course, the very famous 92 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:07,320 Marlowe's Society that did play per year. 93 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:13,800 And you were invited to join the cast of the Marlowe's Society. 94 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:21,400 And I did and I ended up playing Hamlet again at Cambridge. 95 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:27,000 That went to the open air theatre at Stratford upon Avon. 96 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:34,360 Where I didn't realize, but in the audience of one of the performances, were all the big 97 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:36,360 rigs from the Birmingham rep. 98 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:42,440 And at the end of my three years at Cambridge, I decided that I wanted to be a professional 99 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:43,480 actor. 100 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:46,840 I wrote begging letters to various reps all around the country. 101 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:53,960 But when my letter landed on the desk at Birmingham, I said, this is that boy we saw playing Hamlet 102 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,240 at Stratford. 103 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:02,600 And I got a job and I stayed there for three years. 104 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:04,600 Talk about luck. 105 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:06,600 Wow, that's amazing. 106 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:11,400 Going back to your first performance as a Hamlet, were there any specific emotions or 107 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:15,960 challenges that you faced during the first performance? 108 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:20,200 I suppose one of the challenges was that we were all boys. 109 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,160 Gertrude was in drag. 110 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:26,680 And so was Ophelia. 111 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:35,480 And the main challenge, I think, was able to learn it. 112 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:42,760 And of course, you were playing to an audience of doting parents. 113 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:45,480 So the audience were kind of on your side. 114 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:50,280 But I loved it. 115 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:50,920 I loved it. 116 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:56,680 And it convinced me that that was the world I wanted to be in. 117 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:04,840 That was the world that I had most talent for. 118 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:10,520 I couldn't think of what I was going to do after grammar school. 119 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:13,880 And suddenly I knew I was going to be an actor. 120 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:18,840 And how did that experience shape your perception of Shakespeare's works? 121 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:29,480 Before, I think, they were in a way still mountains to climb. 122 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:37,400 But Shakespeare's works were no longer so unassailable. 123 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:45,160 They became, as I read them, from the point of view of performing, 124 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:51,400 they became more accessible and ceased to be Shakespeare. 125 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,280 And I wasn't frightened of them anymore. 126 00:09:54,280 --> 00:10:02,440 And I could see the beauty of them, but also the ordinaryness of them. 127 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:05,240 They were real people. 128 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:10,680 They were speaking what used to sound to me highfalutin. 129 00:10:10,680 --> 00:10:19,080 But now they were perfectly accessible human beings who were speaking in a highly charged, 130 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:21,560 often flowery way. 131 00:10:21,560 --> 00:10:27,640 But what they were saying and what they were thinking and what they were feeling was just like anybody else. 132 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:28,600 Yeah. 133 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,640 You were an only child, weren't you, Derek? 134 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:32,140 Yeah. 135 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:37,480 Did your parents encourage you in Shakespeare? 136 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:42,920 Or was this something you sort of took off your own bat from a schoolmaster or something? 137 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:44,280 Yes, no, they did. 138 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:45,560 I wasn't an only child. 139 00:10:45,560 --> 00:10:47,160 I was also a war baby. 140 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:50,600 I was born the year before war broke out. 141 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,440 And I was evacuated and all that carry on. 142 00:10:54,440 --> 00:11:02,600 So I didn't really see my father until after the end of the war. 143 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:08,200 And they were doting parents, I have to say. 144 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:18,600 They gave me everything, their love and whatever I wanted somehow. 145 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:25,240 I was spoiled, but hopefully I survived being spoiled. 146 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:28,840 And of course, we didn't love each other. 147 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:32,920 We lived in London. 148 00:11:34,680 --> 00:11:36,120 Had they been to university? 149 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:37,160 Had they been to Cambridge? 150 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:41,960 No, they were both tradesmen. 151 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:49,320 My mother worked in the local high street, as did my father when he came out of the army. 152 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:55,000 He had a sweet shop for several years in Chingford. 153 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:57,000 No, no, no, no. 154 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,520 My mother was more educated than my father. 155 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:04,280 Dad wasn't particularly educated at all. 156 00:12:06,680 --> 00:12:10,840 But they must have been astounded when they came to see you playing Hamlet at age 17. 157 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:12,680 What had they given birth to? 158 00:12:14,680 --> 00:12:15,800 I think they were. 159 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:17,000 I think they were. 160 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:22,920 But the great thing was that I think because I was the only one, 161 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,360 I got sort of whatever I wanted. 162 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:30,840 It didn't make me one of those awful children, you know. 163 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:36,040 But they did indulge me, shall we say. 164 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:41,240 The first theatre I ever went to, they took me to the Phantomime at the London Palladium. 165 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:50,600 And during the course of the Pantomime, the leading lady, Prince Charming and Dandini, 166 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:57,720 both famous actresses and performers, came down into the auditorium and picked a few kids to grow 167 00:12:57,720 --> 00:12:58,520 up on the stage. 168 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:00,920 And I was one of the kids they picked. 169 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:04,680 So the first stage I ever on was the London Palladium. 170 00:13:04,680 --> 00:13:05,480 How extraordinary. 171 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:13,960 Do you remember your first Shakespeare play that you ever went to and whether that had an effect 172 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:23,080 on it or whether the actors in it inspired you to start thinking of becoming an actor? 173 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:23,880 Yes, I remember. 174 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:26,280 I can't remember exactly. 175 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:27,480 I think it was Hamlet. 176 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:36,440 Well, we had kind of regular visits to the Old Vic in London. 177 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:39,960 And I saw Richard Burton playing Hamlet. 178 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:42,120 John Neville. 179 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:42,760 That's right. 180 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:46,120 John Neville and Richard Burton alternated Hamlet. 181 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:52,520 One played Hamlet and one played Horatio, I think, and they alternated them. 182 00:13:53,960 --> 00:14:02,040 So the Old Vic was the first theatre in London that had a huge effect on me. 183 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:09,240 And I loved going to the Old Vic, mainly in school parties, mainly sitting up in the grounds. 184 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:16,840 And then eventually, of course, I played the Old Vic and it was a wonderful circle. 185 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:24,520 Is there a specific scene or character from the works of Shakespeare that resonates with you most? 186 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:27,560 Oh, that's a difficult one. 187 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:31,400 They kind of they all do, I think. 188 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:38,440 Hamlet is the play that I've done over 400 performances of. 189 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,840 So it's the one that first springs to mind. 190 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:46,040 But I've been in many of them. 191 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:57,720 The one that I didn't think I could do, and eventually the 192 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:04,840 director said, unless you do it now, you won't you'll be too old to do it. 193 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,480 And that was Leah when I was in my seventies. 194 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:14,040 And that has stayed with me very much so. 195 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:21,560 But Hamlet for me is the one, because I also got to play Hamlet at Elsinore 196 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:26,200 in the castle, the castle of Elsinore. 197 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:26,760 Wow. 198 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:28,680 That was that was great. 199 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:29,480 That was wonderful. 200 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:32,440 To a largely Danish audience, I imagine. 201 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:33,880 But they understood. 202 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:35,880 The height of the tourist season. 203 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,600 So there were there were English people there as well. 204 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:46,680 But as you say, yes, the Danes, however, Majesty, the Danish Queen, Margaret of England, 205 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:52,920 and she came and the lady waiting came twice. 206 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:53,720 Really? 207 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:54,360 Yes. 208 00:15:54,360 --> 00:16:01,880 And then and then the Queen gave me a Danish knighthood. 209 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:03,400 Hooray. 210 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:04,840 And jolly well deserved. 211 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:11,560 But so, Derek, who who fundamentally taught you, who guided you? 212 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:17,320 About how to be so brilliant and so true in the way you speak these Shakespeare lines. 213 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:24,360 How did it come about that you, of all people, managed to communicate them in this extraordinary 214 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:29,080 way that is lacking from so many other well-intentioned actors? 215 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:33,720 I I find that very difficult to answer. 216 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:38,120 I I think that's the most important thing. 217 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:41,720 Very difficult to answer. 218 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:53,080 I as very young, I mean, when I was about six or seven, I was in the local library. 219 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:58,040 Panto Panto Christmas play, not Panto Christmas play. 220 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:06,520 And that was my first time dressing up and trying to be somebody else with the Shakespearean 221 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:13,160 texts. I just thought I've got to make people understand what I'm saying. 222 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:24,840 And I had seen by which time I had seen performances and I hadn't actually understood it all. 223 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:27,640 It wasn't immediate to me. 224 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:37,400 And I thought there must be a way of saying these lines in a colloquial way. Don't worry 225 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,800 about the flush and the bloom of poetry on them. 226 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:43,400 That'll speak for itself. 227 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:50,120 You can't get rid of it, but be be be colloquial. 228 00:17:50,120 --> 00:17:53,480 Say it as if it's your everyday language. 229 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:54,680 That's the way you talk. 230 00:17:54,680 --> 00:18:05,080 And so with that at the back of my head, it meant that the text suddenly, the meaning 231 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:12,440 of the texts shone out rather than the way they were being presented to the audience. 232 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:20,680 And if I could understand what I was talking about and using tonalities that the audience 233 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:30,520 would recognise, that there was no poetic overlay, there was no reciting, the voice 234 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:38,040 didn't seem, it was my voice saying those words as I would say them to you. 235 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:43,480 Yes. But so what's extraordinary, what I find extraordinary when I hear you doing Shakespeare 236 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:48,200 is that on the one hand, it's absolutely clear to me that you have a very deep understanding, 237 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,240 you know exactly what you're saying, you absolutely understand the lines perfectly. 238 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:57,560 On the other hand, you appear to be almost improvising, that it's a natural thought that's 239 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:01,720 coming to you just as you're about to say it in that second, that's very, very realistic. 240 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:08,520 And that sort of balance between what's total improvisation and what has to have been quite 241 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:13,800 a serious study of it, seems to be the whole art and difficulty of acting. 242 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:22,120 And so I wondered when you, for instance, did to be or not to be speech 400 times, did 243 00:19:22,120 --> 00:19:26,840 you always, had you studied it to the degree where you put the lilt or whatever it was 244 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:31,920 or the emphasis on particularly words of time, or did you find yourself sounding different 245 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:34,680 every time you did it on those 400 occasions? 246 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:46,200 Again, it's difficult to answer. I think basically I ignored punctuation. I punctuated it for 247 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:56,680 myself. If I wanted that line to mean something slightly other than what the line actually 248 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:04,320 meant, then I would punctuate it in my own way. And I would inflict it in my own way. 249 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:11,360 So that it sounded like spoken thought, that I was kind of not exactly making out as I 250 00:20:11,360 --> 00:20:20,040 went along, but that it had an immediacy to it, but it didn't come over as a learned text. 251 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:31,000 It came over, hopefully, I hoped, but it came over as spoken thought. And there wasn't necessarily 252 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:41,160 a rhythm to it, particularly within the more poetic lines. I sort of thought, forget the 253 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:50,320 rhythm, go for what it means. And if you have to stop in the middle of the line to emphasize 254 00:20:50,320 --> 00:21:00,880 something, do that. If you want to metaphorically put that word in inverted commas, do that. 255 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:12,400 Don't worry about tradition, for a start. And make it as real and as colloquial and 256 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:21,280 as conversational as you can. And if they throw brick bats at you for that, well, they 257 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:31,840 do. But I thought that was my way of making it interesting and not just receive text that 258 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:39,760 many in the audience would have heard before. Maybe this was a way of, it would hit their 259 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:48,080 ears in a new way. And they would think, oh, yes, that's interesting. 260 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:53,480 Did you find it difficult to learn the text? 261 00:21:53,480 --> 00:22:02,560 No. And that's my great sorrow now, because I find it more difficult now. No, I was gifted, 262 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:12,600 gifted with a wonderful, an instant memory. I mean, I could learn these and there was 263 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:20,120 no problem. There is now, there is now, big problem. Well, a much bigger problem than 264 00:22:20,120 --> 00:22:24,000 it was. But no, I had no problem. 265 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:29,760 Can you share any particular memorable or challenging moments from your live theatre 266 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:30,760 performances? 267 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:37,960 I remember, Derek, not trying to answer for you, but I remember once you got very challenged 268 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:45,800 talking about learning lines. Didn't you have an extraordinary experience on the very last 269 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:53,480 of your 400th Hamlets, where you suddenly had a sort of freak out? Am I right or have 270 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,080 I misremembered that? 271 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:01,320 You were performing Hamlet and I think you were doing the to be or not to be speech and 272 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:02,720 you suddenly had a panic. 273 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:03,720 Oh, I did. I did. 274 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,120 You wouldn't be able to remember it or something. 275 00:23:06,120 --> 00:23:16,560 Yes, I did. Yes, I, I for two years suffered actors. What was it called? I didn't go on 276 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:25,760 stage for two years. I got actors block. And it was while I was playing Hamlet. It was 277 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:36,080 the last I was on tour. And I think somewhere in the South of England. And our interval 278 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:40,840 came before to be or not to be. So the first thing I did after the interval was the nunnery scene 279 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:49,920 and I was in the wings and I put a worm of doubt in my head so stupidly. 280 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:58,280 I thought, gosh, I've done this place so often. And it's so beautiful. What if I went on the 281 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,760 stage and forgot to be or not to be? 282 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:08,800 My cue came. I walked on the stage to be or not to be. That is the question. Whether it 283 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:19,280 is noble in the mind to suffer the sling and arrows of outrageous fortune or. And I went 284 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:34,160 complete black out. My costume, I sweated my costume turned black with sweat. I it lasted. It must 285 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:43,240 have lasted about 30 seconds, but it felt like an hour. And I picked it up. I went on 286 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:51,080 finished the play. It was a matinee. I had to do it again that evening. And I didn't 287 00:24:51,080 --> 00:25:00,040 go on stage for two years. I scared myself rotten. I got stage fright and I gave stage 288 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:10,400 fright to myself by stupidly questioning what can I remember? And I done it umpteen times. 289 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:18,640 It's a really horrific story that actually. It's a real, real nightmare. I've never been 290 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:23,000 able to act. I've never acted. I've absolutely terrified about ever even thinking of acting 291 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:28,280 in my whole life. And yet I have these dreams sometimes where I'm an actor on the stage 292 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:33,200 and I can't remember my lines and it completely freaks me. 293 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,240 Join the club. 294 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:39,840 I mean, because you can't, especially in Shakespeare and especially in to be or not to be, you 295 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,160 can't just improvise. 296 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:51,360 But it was a horrible moment. And as I say, I didn't go on stage for two years. And what 297 00:25:51,360 --> 00:25:57,760 got me back on stage was an offer I couldn't refuse from the Royal Shakespeare Company. 298 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:05,560 Yes. And well, talking of which talking of it to be on not to be speech. I bet you've 299 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:12,480 never acted it, but I suspect you are aware that the to be or not to be had an earlier 300 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:20,040 form that that speech in which it doesn't really sound the same at all. He says to be 301 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:21,040 or not to be. 302 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:30,560 I've got it here. He says to be or not to be. I there's the point to die to sleep. Is 303 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:37,240 that all? No, no, to sleep, to dream. I marry. There it goes. It's very different. It's a 304 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:46,440 very different speech, which which which comes in the first quarter of that play and clearly 305 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:50,760 didn't satisfy the author or something happened to make him revise it. 306 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,160 The speech is much better. 307 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:57,520 Yeah, well, I read it very badly. I expected you had read the first quarter version. You'd 308 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:06,800 make it into music. But it's it's very interesting that now when it of course it brings us on 309 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:18,520 to a very interesting fact that you and Maudie and I all have strong reasons to believe that 310 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:24,800 William Shakespeare was actually a pseudonym. And when you look at things like the revision 311 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:30,800 of the to be or not to be speech, one cannot help but think back to the author and 312 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:37,320 the relevance of the author in this in this extraordinary three way dynamic, the author 313 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:43,080 who channels to the actor who channels to the audience. 314 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:48,320 So you've been very brave because you had a big reputation. I think things have 315 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:53,280 got we still have a massive reputation, but things have got better. But I think when you 316 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:57,840 first when you first announced to the world that you thought that William Shakespeare 317 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:02,800 was a pseudonym, you've got a lot of heavy hammers coming crashing down on your head 318 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:08,600 and people being very rude about you. Can you remember can you remember whether you 319 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:13,240 thought carefully before you gave the public that information or how it slipped out or 320 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:14,240 what happened there? 321 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:23,680 No, it was the book I read that what was it called? Probably was it Ogburn? Was it the 322 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,880 the mysterious William Shakespeare probably? 323 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:32,520 Charlton Ogburn. Yes. I and somebody gave that to me and said, this is fascinating. It's 324 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:42,720 never occurred to me before that. Look, anybody but William of Stratford, and that really 325 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:54,760 thought this this is I believe this I believe this and that I made my own inquiries. I became 326 00:28:54,760 --> 00:29:02,400 quite convinced that the man from Stratford, his only connection with the place was being 327 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:11,000 member of a troupe of actors on the South Bank in London, that he had no input in the 328 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:19,320 actual writing of them. And there was no evidence to say that he had written them. And where 329 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:30,240 it all started and the birthplace and suddenly it had become Shakespeare was not just an 330 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:44,640 Elizabethan dramatist. He was he was God and Stratford on Avon was a hallowed place. The 331 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:55,000 birthplace and suddenly it became a kind of toy town. And it became anathema and 332 00:29:55,000 --> 00:30:01,520 particularly for an actor to say that no, I don't believe Shakespeare in Stratford wrote 333 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:10,720 them. I believe somebody else wrote them. And grudges as I read. The Earl of Oxford became 334 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:18,440 for me the nearest thing to how I imagined the author to be. 335 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:23,920 But do you remember thinking twice about telling people that you thought this or did you are 336 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:28,880 you the sort of person who just says what you believe and out it came and then all hell 337 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:29,880 broke loose? 338 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:38,320 I knew it would cause ruptures. I knew it would cause some particularly, well, the people 339 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:48,520 from Stratford, the great believers in I won't mention names in Stratford called me insane, 340 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:57,440 called me mad. Okay, well, I'm insane. I'm mad. But that's, that's what I now believe. 341 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:04,160 I think the nearest as I say, was Oxford. But I'm not saying it's it was definitely 342 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:12,200 him. Nobody else. I don't I still don't know. But I, I am firmly convinced that it wasn't 343 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:16,360 the man that they say, it wasn't about the Stratford. 344 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:21,600 How did your fellow actors react to your doubts? Did you have any or did you face any 345 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:25,840 challenging discussions with them? 346 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:33,520 Not really, they kind of refused to discuss it. And I was I was surprised that fellow 347 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:38,960 Shakespearean actors well known Shakespearean actors, you know, I thought I thought I was 348 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:45,080 mad and thought Mark was mad and kind of didn't want to discuss it didn't want to talk about 349 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:50,840 it. I'm very fond of Derek, but look, don't let's go there. Don't let's go there. And 350 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:59,200 that was the sort of reaction. Not not to be discussed. It was beyond the pale, beyond 351 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,640 the pale. It was like you know, 352 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:08,480 now you read history at Cambridge University, didn't you? And then when I acted all the 353 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:12,480 time, well, you Yeah, but you you were there to read history, whether you read it all the 354 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:19,120 time or not. But and and then of course, being an actor. So I just imagine your your latest 355 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:24,440 reading of Ogden's extraordinarily long book, it's sort of 800 pages, it's a very good and 356 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:29,880 worth reading book. But how passages of that would be resonating with you as you read it 357 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:35,360 as both an actor who knows Shakespeare pretty intimately, but also a historian who has this 358 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:42,800 sense of, of history and a mind that is trained to some degree to challenge history. That 359 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:47,400 perhaps put you in a different position from some of the other people you find yourself 360 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:52,920 having to argue against who either instinctively or spiritually just wish to believe that Shakespeare 361 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:54,760 was William of Stratford. 362 00:32:54,760 --> 00:33:07,360 Yes, I think my historical instincts also weighed heavily on the side of it wasn't the 363 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:22,600 Stratford man. The historical trails to the plays to the characters just were wrong. 364 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:34,440 The place you believed in Stratford. And I think those historical senses of finding trails 365 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:45,200 finding ways in, finding reasons for, were part of the historical mind and which I suppose 366 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:51,680 I had. And it's, it ended up just not making sense. 367 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:57,880 Did playing Hamlet or directing Hamlet deepen your connection to Edward de Vere? 368 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:06,600 I can't say it did. Shall we say Edward de Vere doesn't come into the theatre with me. 369 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:18,200 He doesn't help me in the theatre as such. Certainly not as an actor or a director. And 370 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:24,320 certainly not in Hamlet because there's too much other to think about. 371 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:31,120 But Derek, am I right in thinking that you read the Ogburn book and got convinced by 372 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:37,400 the Oxfordian argument after you had acted all the Hamlets. You've done the Hamlets first. 373 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:42,520 Then you read this book. And I assume were very, very interested in the passages that 374 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:50,480 book that are about Hamlet which show how many aspects of the Hamlet seem to be autobiographical. 375 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:57,040 And what's always amazed me is that the Stratfordianist, the person who believes that William of Stratford 376 00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:02,920 wrote the plays, they've gone on for many, many years saying they don't have much about 377 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,600 the biography of William of Stratford or practically anything of any interest. But they've been 378 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:13,360 saying that Hamlet has to be the most autobiographical of William Shakespeare's plays. Yet they 379 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:18,400 can't match any incident in Hamlet to anything from the life of William of Stratford. And 380 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:23,760 yet along comes the Earl of Oxford, Edward de Vere, and there's incident after incident 381 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:31,540 after incident, that seem to mirror very precisely what went on in his own life. Including the 382 00:35:31,540 --> 00:35:37,960 early death of his father, the precipitous marriage of his mother to somebody else, being 383 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:45,440 shipwrecked and stripped naked by pirates. I mean, it sort of goes on and on and on. 384 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:50,560 In fact, Edward de Vere even dreamt that he saw the ghost of his stepfather rather like 385 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:58,040 Hamlet sees the ghost of his actual father. Your deep, deep knowledge of Hamlet, when 386 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:03,240 you read that book, so I'm not talking about how if you were to play Hamlet today, how 387 00:36:03,240 --> 00:36:07,460 knowing about Edward de Vere would alter your performance, but just reading that book and 388 00:36:07,460 --> 00:36:11,400 having all that background on Hamlet, it must have resonated very strongly with you. 389 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:20,800 Oh, it did. It did. I mean, the connections between what we gleaned certainly from the 390 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:30,280 plays of the character of the man who wrote them, whoever wrote them, suddenly coalesced 391 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:40,160 with what we were finding out about de Vere. And the connections were mind bogglingly close, 392 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:48,080 which was, which wasn't the fact with the man from Stratford, where there was nothing 393 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:57,680 contingent between his life, his experience, what we know of all that. And the only connection 394 00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:06,720 was the company that he joined in London. That was the only connection he had with play 395 00:37:06,720 --> 00:37:10,280 acting, certainly not play writing. 396 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:18,000 Certainly not play writing and in even play acting, we don't know 100% what he was doing 397 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,880 and what he acted, if he acted anything at all, but he was certainly involved with the 398 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:28,760 business side of the Chamberlain's men. I want to remind you of something you may have 399 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:34,120 even totally forgotten, but I was listening to it just the other day. You made a recording, 400 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:40,600 an audio recording of the letters of Edward de Vere, and I was just astounded listening 401 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:49,480 to those, how even a sort of transactional business letter, when read by you, sounds 402 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:53,200 pure Shakespeare. Do you remember making that recording? 403 00:37:53,200 --> 00:38:03,600 Yes, I do. I do remember. They were beautifully written, although their subjects might have 404 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:10,720 been, certainly to me, rather mundane, rather ordinary, but they kind of lifted off the 405 00:38:10,720 --> 00:38:24,080 page with the way they were expressed. I suppose reading them automatically, not put on a voice, 406 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:35,480 but read them, if I was reading them truthfully, their intrinsic value, literary, poetic, whatever 407 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:39,280 value, came to the surface. 408 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:47,440 Yes. Would you mind if when we edit this conversation, if we just intersperse a little bit, there's 409 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:51,640 an absolutely beautiful letter that Edward de Vere writes to Robert Cecil about the 410 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:58,520 death of Queen Elizabeth, and he says how he's left rather like a ship without an anchor, 411 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:02,960 without a sail. So if we might just intersperse a little bit of that with your reading it 412 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,880 on that recording, that would be great. 413 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:10,280 I can't remember it. 414 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:15,800 It's a beautiful bit of Shakespearean prose, absolutely wonderful. 415 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:22,480 I cannot but find a great grief in myself to remember the mistress which we have lost, 416 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:29,520 under whom both you and myself from our greenest years have been in a manner brought up. And 417 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:35,320 although it hath pleased God, after an earthly kingdom, to take her up into a more permanent 418 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:41,520 and heavenly state, wherein I do not doubt but she is crowned with glory, and to give 419 00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:49,480 us a prince wise, learned, and enriched with all the virtues, yet after the long time which 420 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:55,160 we spent in her service, we cannot look for so much left of our days as to bestow upon 421 00:39:55,160 --> 00:40:03,000 another. The long acquaintance and kind familiarities wherewith she did use us, we are not ever 422 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:08,960 to expect from another prince, as denied by the infirmity of age and common course of 423 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,040 reason. 424 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:19,240 In this common shipwreck, mine is above all the rest, who least regarded, though often 425 00:40:19,240 --> 00:40:25,000 comforted, of all her followers she hath left to try my fortune among the alterations of 426 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:32,320 time and chance, either without sail, whereby to take the advantage of any prosperous gale, 427 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:37,640 or with anchor, to ride till the storm be overpassed. 428 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:44,640 Derek, what's your favourite sonnet and why? 429 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:51,600 I suppose, shall I compare thee? 430 00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,000 Which is number eighteen, isn't it? 431 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:55,000 It is. 432 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:56,000 Number eighteen, yes. 433 00:40:56,000 --> 00:41:03,000 Yes, I think it is. And actually, this has, in my mind, a very, very interesting connection 434 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:10,760 again to Vere, because Shakespeare's first seventeen sonnets are known as the procreation 435 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:17,440 sonnets, and in them he's urging a fair youth to have a baby. And everyone argues about 436 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:21,380 who Shakespeare is and who that baby is and why he's urging someone else to have a baby 437 00:41:21,380 --> 00:41:27,120 for him. But never mind all that, one of the great big arguments in those first seventeen 438 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:33,240 sonnets is if you don't have a baby, if you don't father a baby for love of me, which 439 00:41:33,240 --> 00:41:38,160 is a very odd thing, your beauty will die. Your beauty will live through lines, eternal 440 00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:45,920 lines. And one of the arguments he gives, he says, ragged winter will catch up with 441 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:50,280 you, basically ragged winter will catch up with you and your beauty will die. And then 442 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:54,880 in sonnet eighteen, he compares him to a summer's day and talks of his eternal summers shall 443 00:41:54,880 --> 00:42:00,560 not die. So it gives the impression that this baby has been born. And this has led to a 444 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:05,120 lot of theories that the Earl of Oxford was unable to have an heir. He, of course, was 445 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:10,440 the seventeenth Earl of Oxford, i.e. the seventeenth procreation sonnet, and he actually got Southampton 446 00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:17,440 to surrogate an heir to the Earl of Oxford, who was the eighteenth Earl of Oxford. 447 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:22,840 Therefore, the eighteenth sonnet talks about the eternal summer that shall not die. And 448 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:28,400 it's a very interesting fact that a contemporary called Anthony Mundy writes to the eighteenth 449 00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:32,640 Earl of Oxford, long after the seventeenth Earl of Oxford is dead, and he alludes to 450 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:36,920 the eighteenth sonnet of Shakespeare. So it does rather look like that's what's going 451 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:37,920 on. 452 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:42,360 And my knowledge of sonnets is not profound. 453 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:47,960 Well maybe, but I've heard you reading them very profoundly indeed. And I think one day, 454 00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:53,280 if you ever had the stamina, energy, goodwill, whatever, to make a recording of those sonnets 455 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:57,800 would be an absolutely fantastic thing to do, because you would do it so beautifully. 456 00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:02,960 Right. I'll get my agent on to it. 457 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:07,560 Good idea. Send us the bill. I'm sure we can, I'm absolutely sure we can, we can, we can 458 00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:11,560 raise the money to whatever your agent wants to get that recording out, because it would 459 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:17,880 be absolutely wonderful. The other thing would be lovely is to record some of the poems that 460 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:24,240 people wrote about Shakespeare at the time. Now, in a recent conference for the Devere 461 00:43:24,240 --> 00:43:30,240 Society, you read a section of Ben Johnson's poem about William Shakespeare, the Encomium, 462 00:43:30,240 --> 00:43:34,800 which I think is a really beautiful and very, very extraordinary poem. 463 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:39,520 So another thing to get on to your agent about is maybe reading some of these 464 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:43,600 poems by Ben Johnson and other contemporaries writing about Shakespeare. 465 00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:48,320 Shakespeare, yes. Because we never hear them read out loud and some, well, I would say 466 00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:52,560 Ben Johnson is rare because he really is a great poet. Some of them aren't so great, 467 00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:56,320 but it's still wonderful to hear them read aloud rather than just see them on the page. 468 00:43:56,320 --> 00:44:06,720 Right. I will look into that. Yes. Thank you very much. So sitting down, can't you? 469 00:44:06,720 --> 00:44:12,440 Now one of the things I want to just ask you briefly about is, well, let's put it this 470 00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:18,720 way. One of the things I find about Shakespeare is the sheer beauty of the lines and the ability 471 00:44:18,720 --> 00:44:24,480 to compress such a big thought into such a small space just in two lines or three lines. 472 00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:31,560 He can say something that is so pregnant with meaning and beautifully stated. And no wonder 473 00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:35,940 he's the most quoted person probably outside of the Bible, but I mean, he's the most quoted 474 00:44:35,940 --> 00:44:43,920 source from anywhere. And he's one of those authors who you're just, I'm put into an ecstasy 475 00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:47,800 just reading the lines. I almost don't care about the stories. I mean, of course, some 476 00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:52,200 of the stories, Lear and Hamlet are amazing, but things like Comedy of Errors are rather 477 00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:58,620 fatuous in my view, but doesn't mean there aren't beautiful lines. Sorry, I've just given 478 00:44:58,620 --> 00:45:02,240 you a monologue about my thoughts of Shakespeare. So that I totally the opposite of what I wanted 479 00:45:02,240 --> 00:45:07,440 to do. Well, I would just like to hear, let's hear your response anyway to that sort of 480 00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:08,440 line of thinking. 481 00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:23,840 Well, as an actor, they are a gift for an actor. Nobody that I have ever met can express 482 00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:36,720 or has expressed the deep truths of life in such a simple way as whoever wrote Shakespeare 483 00:45:36,720 --> 00:45:50,320 wrote. The profundity that is evident in the simplest, the simplest serving up of something 484 00:45:50,320 --> 00:46:02,120 that is so deep. It requires, it's so surprising that sometimes when I, when I read Shakespeare 485 00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:09,280 for the first time, it was a very, very slow process because what it was saying was so 486 00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:21,520 deep and yet what I was reading was so simple and beautiful and true that it was remarkable, 487 00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:30,640 absolutely remarkable that he could think a thought and then be able to express it so 488 00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:43,880 poignantly, so truly, so beautifully, seemingly so easily. It dripped off his pen. It was 489 00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:56,120 an amazing facility that Shakespeare taught for me is beauty. It's beauty in the mouth, 490 00:46:56,120 --> 00:47:03,320 it's beauty on the ear, it's beauty in the mind. 491 00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:14,960 So it must be a massive thrill to be the person who can channel this mind from 400 years ago 492 00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:22,400 straight to a modern audience of people in front of you and not only feel as a really 493 00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:29,120 good actor feel totally moved by what you're saying or move to hilarity if it's a comic 494 00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:36,440 aspect or to tears if it's a tragic aspect and to see the effect of that coming around 495 00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:42,080 to a modern audience. It's an extraordinary triangle that begs the question what is, what 496 00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:46,360 is Hamlet? Is it in the mind? 497 00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:56,280 The trick of it all, of any acting ability is to experience it yourself but at the same 498 00:47:56,280 --> 00:48:02,200 time as you're experiencing it, sharing it with the audience. It's no good you experiencing 499 00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:08,000 up there on the stage and they are looking at their programmes, they are not involved. 500 00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:13,920 The whole essence of the performance, on any performance is to, you do it for them, not 501 00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:23,640 for you. You had a journey, you had a journey of learning, of understanding or of feeling 502 00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:33,720 and you have to package all that up and give it to them so they can make the same journey. 503 00:48:33,720 --> 00:48:40,400 It's harder for them because it's immediate and it's up to the actor to present it in 504 00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:49,800 such a way that the immediacy of what we're offering is completely and wholly absorbable 505 00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:59,760 like that by the audience. That's the trick of it. Trick is not a, perhaps a nice word 506 00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:04,920 to use but it is a trick. It is in a sense trickery. 507 00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:11,400 Well you're referring to the craft, the skill of acting is a trickery. 508 00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:13,360 It's often called technique. 509 00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:19,240 But do you not think that there is, sorry Derek, do you not think there is also something 510 00:49:19,240 --> 00:49:27,480 ethereal about it, that there is a mystic element even that God if you like it or don't 511 00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:34,400 like is playing some role in this threesome of writer, actor, audience? 512 00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:43,440 Yes, I agree but it's not something that you are aware of. Something that you accept that 513 00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:51,920 that is there, that is always part of the communication. Something that you want not 514 00:49:51,920 --> 00:50:03,520 on but it's the magic of the theatre. The magic of the theatre. Sure, there is a magic 515 00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:14,840 between us and them that we're not in charge of. It descends, it's there. It will come 516 00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:21,400 under the right circumstances. You have to create the circumstances and that adding, 517 00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:31,280 that thing will come. You may not actually be aware of its presence but the audience 518 00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:45,000 will be aware of it. You're in the fact the tradesman. The product is what they are buying. 519 00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:51,040 Sometimes there is something about the product that has nothing to do with you. You are producing 520 00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:58,560 but something else, something magical, something ethereal is happening to you. 521 00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:04,960 So years ago I made a television programme about piano playing and they put my head into 522 00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:10,680 a, what do they call it, Maudie, in a hospital when they read your brain? 523 00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:11,680 MRI. 524 00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:21,640 An MRI scanner and they made me play the piano while I was in the MRI scanner and they realised 525 00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:26,560 that I was playing the piano with only that part of the brain that did not deal with emotion 526 00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:31,200 at all. This goes back to your idea, Derek, that there is a kind of trick involved, that 527 00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:38,440 a very skilful actor is in a sense playing tricks. But at the same time I think I've 528 00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:45,480 heard you saying in other interviews and things that you do genuinely feel the emotion, the 529 00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:51,040 tears of Lear when Cordelia dies. You're actually feeling it. It's not really all trick, is 530 00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:57,280 it? Somehow there's a merge between the trick and the skill and the craft of acting and 531 00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:00,560 what's really happening becomes so real that… 532 00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:08,880 Combination of all of them. But trickery is there. I mean, when I say that, an awareness 533 00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:18,440 of… so that when you are overcome by emotion and the tears are flowing, at the same time 534 00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:25,200 there is an awareness that the tears are flowing, that this is part of a performance. There 535 00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:35,480 always has to be an awareness. You don't cut off entirely. You appear to cut off. But 536 00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:46,320 the art is the appearance of having totally let go. No actors don't totally let go. They're 537 00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:54,840 still in control when they appear to be absolutely broken. They're still in control. They have 538 00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:59,400 to be because they're going to do it eight times a week. 539 00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:04,560 Yes. And the extraordinary thing I notice with actors, really good actors such as yourself, 540 00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:11,680 all really good classical musical performers, is they draw the audience into them as well 541 00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:19,680 as projecting out to the audience. There's a sort of double movement of energy. An actor 542 00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:26,560 doesn't just stand and project. There's something that draws the audience towards 543 00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:33,200 a great actor so they can't get their eyes off the actor's eyes. They're completely 544 00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:38,120 gripped by it. There's an energy going both ways. Do you feel that or am I just inventing 545 00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:39,120 it? 546 00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:45,320 You're inventing it because you were doing it for them. You are not just parading yourself, 547 00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:53,960 saying aren't I clever? That I could draw these lines and spout them out. No, no, no. 548 00:53:53,960 --> 00:54:05,920 Your job is to make them feel, make them be moved, make them feel involved. That's what 549 00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:15,720 they paid their money for, to have that experience. You have hopefully got a talent to give them 550 00:54:15,720 --> 00:54:27,880 that experience without actually ruining yourself, without actually to get so emotional that 551 00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:33,320 you get ill with it. No, you've got to do it again and again and again. But you do it 552 00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:39,440 for them. They've got to feel it. They feel, if you can make them feel ill or sick or happy 553 00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:49,920 or whatever, they've got to, that's what they paid for, to feel, not just to watch and listen, 554 00:54:49,920 --> 00:55:00,120 but to feel, to think, to go somewhere that you can only go to in a theatre in front of 555 00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:01,120 actors. 556 00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:05,800 What's your favourite theatre to perform in, Derek? 557 00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:12,960 Oh, I think it was the Old Vic. I was there for a while and I love the Old Vic. It kind 558 00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:22,680 of, it welcomes you. It loves actors. You know, and you go out on that stage. I used 559 00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:31,960 to go to the Black Theatre as a schoolboy. I watched the actors and then I was allowed 560 00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:39,080 on that stage and I performed on that stage. One of my great experiences was playing Hamlet 561 00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:48,120 on the stage of the Old Vic. Richard Burton was in the audience and I didn't know. 562 00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:50,600 Had Richard Burton played Hamlet on that same stage? 563 00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:51,600 I saw it. 564 00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:52,600 Oh, you saw it, yeah. 565 00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:53,600 As a schoolboy. 566 00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:55,360 And then he came to see you. 567 00:55:55,360 --> 00:56:04,200 He came, and he came round afterwards and said how much he'd enjoyed it. We went out 568 00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:11,320 to dinner and it was a magical night because I remember sitting up in the glance, watching 569 00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:19,720 him play Hamlet down there and it was a magical moment. The dressing room door opened and 570 00:56:19,720 --> 00:56:23,600 the rest of Richard Burton. It was just amazing. 571 00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:28,960 I somehow imagine that your respective Hamlet performances were very different from one 572 00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:34,040 another. I don't know why I say that. 573 00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:45,480 He was very romantic because he's very handsome. He's a film star. He had great charisma. 574 00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:46,480 I can't remember. 575 00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:49,480 Did he do it in a Welsh accent? 576 00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:56,000 He always had a lute. He always had a lute in his voice. Lovely voice. 577 00:56:56,000 --> 00:57:01,680 Beautiful voice, yes. I've got his recording of Dylan Thomas under Milk Woodwich. It's 578 00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:05,800 pure music, isn't it? 579 00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:10,760 So Derek, I cannot say to you what an honour it's been to talk to you. I'd love to go 580 00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:18,560 on and on and on, but we've already hit the hour and I just feel it's a tragedy, but we're 581 00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:24,280 going to have to draw it to a close. But thank you very, very much. You do us great honour 582 00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:26,640 on our little podcast by talking to us. 583 00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:29,920 Thank you so much, Derek. It's been a pleasure. 584 00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:35,840 Very, very interesting as well. Absolutely fascinating. So many, many thanks. If you're 585 00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:40,780 a listener to this and you've enjoyed this, please subscribe and we're going to do many 586 00:57:40,780 --> 00:57:49,000 more 1740 podcasts which are linked to the De Vere society and we'll let you know who 587 00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:52,280 the guests are going to be in future. But I very much doubt we're going to have anyone 588 00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:57,800 of quite the incredible calibre and genius and brilliance of Sir Derek Jacobi. Thank 589 00:57:57,800 --> 00:57:58,800 you. 590 00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:15,500 Please subscribe and we'll let you know who the guests are going to be in future.