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Before we start this podcast, I want to say that every project I have pretty much has

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a village behind it, and this one is no exception.

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I want to thank the patrons who stepped in on my Kickstarter to really make sure that

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this got off the ground.

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Denise Grady, Caden White-Wattam, Amanda Peake, Todd A. Davis, Jay Grant, and Corey Watson.

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Without you guys, I wouldn't be sitting here talking with the awesome guest that I'm

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about to talk to.

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Thank you so much.

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So full disclosure, it's our second time recording because the first time the audio just didn't

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come through, but I'm thinking that we'll be able to pull a good recording out of this.

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So thank you for, you know, sitting with me a second time.

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No worries.

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Yeah.

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Welcome to It's Your Lost podcast, where raw stories of resilience and healing are told,

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all while uncovering and destigmatizing the diverse symptoms of loss.

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Welcome back to the podcast.

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If you missed last month's episode, well, it's your loss.

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I'm your host, Michael LeBlanc, and I have with me author extraordinaire, just an all-around

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cool person.

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I think she's done two books now.

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Is that right?

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Yeah.

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Two books.

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It's Cat Higgs.

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Cool Thard.

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Hello.

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How are you?

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I'm great.

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So happy to be here.

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Thanks, Michael.

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Not a problem, but I'll go ahead and ask you the same thing that I ask everybody else.

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Cat, what did you lose?

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Well, I've lost so many things in my life, but the core memory that I still am in processing

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is my house burned down when I was in fifth grade.

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So in that moment, we lost everything except the people that were valuable in our lives.

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We lost our home where we were living, all our possessions, and the sense of community

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that I was living in that area when the house burned down.

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We couldn't live there anymore.

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So that was also a huge loss.

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That is a huge loss.

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That's a huge loss sandwich.

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There's a lot of layers to that.

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And one of the things that feel like that, that parallels is a big part of your book

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called Junkyard Dogs where the main character's house burns down and you find out more about

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it as the story goes on.

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And I feel like it's interesting that you say this happened to you in fifth grade and

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you're still processing it now.

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And I'm sure they're like writing that was a point of catharsis and everything.

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But before we jump all the way into the deep end with that, you mentioned on your sign

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of sheet that you like two games.

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One is Centipede, which I couldn't find a way to do a two player centipede over Zoom.

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I scratched my head furiously for that one for like 15 minutes before I gave up and landed

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on battleship.

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And I don't know if you know this, but the actual idea of battleship is a very old game

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originated in France.

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And it was called Le Tac back then and the version of it anyway of just like people drawing

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dots and trying to guess where the dots were and trying to sink ships and whatnot.

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And so I was like, we can do that on paper.

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We can go old school.

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So no one's ever going to see this because I'm not doing that.

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Well, actually they might they see an ad for this, but I gave you a printout for battleship.

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I have mine.

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We have placed our ships.

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And now throughout the throughout the thing, just, you know, we'll go back and forth.

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We'll do a letter number combinations and see just how many hits we get.

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We don't, we're not even like measuring ships here.

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We're just going to see at least how many hits we get.

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And as you were the guest, I'll go ahead and let you shout out the first combination.

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Okay, let's see.

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How about a 10?

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That would be a mess.

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All right.

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And I'll come back and come back at you in just a little bit.

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Just just real quick.

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When did you like battleship?

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You said it is one of your favorite games.

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It's one of your favorite games from childhood.

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Is it something that you discovered later?

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Yeah, I grew up.

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I just have one sibling.

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And so two player games were kind of the norm in our household.

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Our parents would play with us sometimes, but they usually wanted to play games like

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monopoly or Euker.

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So battleship was something my brother and I played quite a bit.

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Yeah, monopoly and Euker.

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Those are the real good games that young kids just want to dive into.

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Yeah.

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Property tax, please mom.

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Just, you say that's 10% so I know exactly what that is.

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I'll come back with a, like I said, another shot here in a little bit, but let's, let's

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talk about junkyard dogs for a minute, which is a wonderful book.

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The characters have depth.

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The stakes just always seem to be rising throughout there, but it starts from a very much from

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a place of hurt where this character is, I mean, still, still reeling from it.

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It seems like even though that things are kind of settled form, how much, I mean, obviously,

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like I said, it's got to come from point of catharsis, but how much of your own personal

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pain did you feel like you were putting into the character when you were creating Josh?

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That's a great question.

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I feel like a lot of times writers hear this axiom about write what you know.

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And so I really have struggled with that in my early writing career.

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I was writing a lot of autobiographical stuff and I realized, you know, my own life isn't

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necessarily all that interesting told intact as an autobiography or memoir, but my own

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emotional journey has a lot of relevance for what other people are going through and what

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they're experiencing.

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So I mind what I knew emotionally and the questions that I had about why, why things

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happen, why there are losses in our lives to inform the characters that I was creating.

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So everyone in junkyard dogs is dealing with some type of loss, as is everyone in the real

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world.

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They really are.

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Yeah, we've all lost something.

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So I wanted to think carefully about, you know, my own emotional journeys and how I could

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use that to inform Josh's emotional journey specifically.

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So with him, you know, he's trying to define what family means and how to, how to be who

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he is in a world where his family isn't the typical family, isn't what we would hope for

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in a family.

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Right.

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So he's dealing with that continual ongoing loss of what, what, you know, losing his idealistic

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family.

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He doesn't have that.

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And then he does also lose his house.

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So that also informed it.

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Yeah.

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And you said that pretty much everybody is dealing with loss in there.

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And you're right.

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Like even the, the from protagonist to antagonist, like everybody is dealing with some sort of

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loss and you can tell who's doing it healthily and who is just writing the flames as far

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as they will go.

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Adds to the intensity of the story.

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I'm going to go ahead and call it a shot here.

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I'm going to say about C2.

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Yes.

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Okay.

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When did you, you said you were fifth grade, right?

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Fifth grade when, when your house were known.

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So tell me, like, if you're still processing it, you got to know, what was your emotional

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standpoint?

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What was going through your head when you found that out?

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I think it's kind of like the stages of grief.

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You know, I didn't believe it at first.

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My dad showed up at school and a classmate came down to the cafeteria to tell me, Hey,

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your dad's in the office.

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And I'm like, why?

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You know, so as a fifth grader, I tracked down to the office and my dad is standing there

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and he just blurts it out.

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Our house is on fire.

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I'm taking you home.

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So he went and got my little brother who was four years younger than me and put us in this

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truck and drove us home to watch our house burn down.

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It was so just incredibly surreal, like be there in the moment watching that happen.

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So it was just this, like, this is, this isn't real, right?

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This is like a nightmare.

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It just, it's not even, not even a nightmare in terms of fear.

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It's just numbness.

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You're just your first initial response is like, this can't be happening.

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Right.

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Right.

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Wow.

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I can imagine it just, just out of curiosity, would you have rather had seen the aftermath

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or had seen the flames?

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You know, I have so many questions about my parents' choices in life, but I really, I

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believe that we all do the best we know how to do in the moment.

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And so I, you know, it's hard to say what's best for kids in that moment.

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I definitely have a lot of writing material now because I'm having watched that.

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The trauma barrel is full.

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And I think it was really helpful because my mother had been at work and she went straight

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to the house thinking that we were there.

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So for her to see us physically alive, okay, standing outside the house, that that was

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really helpful versus, you know, just my mom showing up and my dad saying, Oh yeah, they're

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at school.

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It's really interesting how parents handled different things though, because during 9-11,

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when all of that happened, I had a child in kindergarten and a two year old.

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And I called the school and I was like, what should I do?

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And they're like, no, leave your child here.

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We want their day to be normal.

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And so I showed up at the end of the day and my kid was the only kid left because every

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other parent picked their kid up.

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And I'm like, there's no win here.

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And it still didn't turn out to be a normal day.

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They were like, oh, where's everybody else going?

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Yes.

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Wow.

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And that, I mean, I've made questionable choices on other people's behalf when like

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traumatic events happened, like we had a pet that passed away one time.

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It was, it was sudden.

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It was sad.

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And in that time, my only thought was, and this was weird, it was, it's a disconnected

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trains of thought that were just like hitting each other.

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And I thought at the time, my wife, my wife at the time was like, she, she has a hard

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time bending down.

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She's not going to be able to pet the dog.

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And then so I picked up the dog, which if you know anything about animals after they

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pass away, that's not a good idea.

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There are things that are, that were contained and all of a sudden they're not anymore.

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And the horrified response from her, you went, what the hell are you doing?

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I'm like, I wanted you to pet the dog.

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And like, so we like to think we have our shit together as adults, but let's be honest,

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we're just, we're holding on.

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No, I mummified a frog once from that same, like my, my child's bullfrog died while they

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were away at summer camp.

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And I thought, you know, they need to see their, they need to see their pet and say

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bye, so I put it in a little box because they were going to be home the next day.

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I'm like, I'll just save, take it out of the water so it doesn't degrade and I'll save

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it.

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And then when they came home from camp, everything was so hectic and busy that I literally forgot

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for three days.

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And then when my child asked, I'm like, oh, let me show you sparkle.

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So I go to open, open the little box I have sparkle in and it was legitimately like mummified.

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Oh yeah.

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The child was so horrified.

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And I just dried out desiccated frog husk, oh my goodness.

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Awful.

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Once you, once you call out a shot for your next shot, what you got?

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Okay, let's try A8.

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A8, that is a miss as well.

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The house is burned down.

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Now in, in Josh's story, he lost a significant member of his family.

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And I don't want to give it away in case anybody wants to read your book, which they

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should.

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But would you lose anybody in that like pet or anything like that?

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No, we were really fortunate that we were at school when it happened.

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It was kind of a departure from the norm though, because normally my mother, she was a school

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bus driver.

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She would have left for work and my dad would take us across the street to my aunt and uncles

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where we would catch the bus from there.

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And that day my dad didn't take us over there.

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He drove us directly to school.

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So my mom thought when she called my aunts, and we weren't there and my aunt didn't know

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why she thought we were in the house.

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So it was terrifying for my mother until she got there.

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But yeah, but luckily nobody was home except our cats.

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And Frisky was my childhood cat and she had just had a litter of kittens and she carried

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them one by one out through a broken window.

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So we had a hero cat when I was a child.

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They all survived.

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That's a good mom.

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So I've had a lot of mom cats in my life and none of them, like some of them just like

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forgot half their litter.

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I'll be honest with you, this mom's super hero.

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That is amazing.

240
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Well, I'm glad.

241
00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:24,200
I'm glad you didn't lose any people.

242
00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:28,640
But I mean, obviously, like you said, there's a sense of security.

243
00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:33,120
Obviously a loss of a whole lot of items, which when you're in fifth grade items are

244
00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:34,120
your world.

245
00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:36,880
Like you got your parents and you got your items.

246
00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:41,400
So what were some kind of like coping mechanisms like looking back?

247
00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,120
You probably didn't think that you didn't know the word coping mechanism probably in

248
00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:45,120
fifth grade.

249
00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:46,760
But like, what do you think?

250
00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:48,360
Like maybe you were developing around that time.

251
00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:50,200
Like how were you handling it?

252
00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:51,920
Not well, probably.

253
00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:56,800
You know, as a kid, you don't really, you don't realize how loss will continue to affect

254
00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:57,800
you later in life.

255
00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:02,520
So like, I don't have baby pictures of myself or my brother.

256
00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:04,480
I don't have my parents wedding photos.

257
00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,480
You know, all of that stuff was destroyed.

258
00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:13,000
Any family heritage stuff that we had was all destroyed unless my grandparents had some

259
00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:14,000
of them.

260
00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:17,120
So we have a few baby pictures, but it was just what my grandparents had.

261
00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:21,040
But just your room, like you were saying, is the center of who you are as a person.

262
00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:25,320
It's where you cultivate your own artifacts and start to see yourself reflected back at

263
00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:26,320
you.

264
00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:27,680
And that was just suddenly gone.

265
00:13:27,680 --> 00:13:33,000
And I was living, you know, immediately going from my room, my comfort zone, into living

266
00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:37,320
in an apartment that had completely white walls and I had nothing to put on them.

267
00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:42,280
So luckily the community came together for us and donated a lot of things and someone

268
00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:48,160
donated some posters and I had stuff eventually, but it was a sharp transition.

269
00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:49,160
Sure.

270
00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:51,080
Big loss like that happens.

271
00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:52,680
It doesn't just like happen to you.

272
00:13:52,680 --> 00:13:55,120
You know, it happens to you.

273
00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:59,000
But the idea of it, it kind of shakes other people around you as well.

274
00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:04,040
Like, like were you ever, you ever at school and like one of the kids come in and found

275
00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:07,400
out like their grandparent passed away or something like that during the school year

276
00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:10,160
and all of a sudden like all these other kids are just like kind of awkward and they're

277
00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:12,080
like, I'm so sorry for you.

278
00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,080
And like, and then like somebody makes a joke and he's like, one person gets really angry

279
00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:16,360
and he's like, don't make fun of him.

280
00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:18,560
His grandma died.

281
00:14:18,560 --> 00:14:23,400
Where did you, you develop like a stigma to the rest of the people at school at that

282
00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:27,680
point where you like all of a sudden the girl whose house burned down and it's so like,

283
00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:29,120
how long did that last?

284
00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,600
I don't specifically remember that.

285
00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:37,200
The stigma that I remember is, hey, you're wearing my shirt because a lot of the kids

286
00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:41,080
in the community had donated because we lost everything on the fire.

287
00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:42,080
So kids are blunt.

288
00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:43,080
Yeah.

289
00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:44,080
I had no clothes.

290
00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:45,080
I had no shoes.

291
00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:46,360
I only what I was wearing that day at school.

292
00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:51,480
So the kids who had donated things would sometimes comment on the fact that I was wearing what

293
00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:53,480
they would donated.

294
00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:57,720
And you know, as a child, you feel that kind of shame and humiliation because we were already

295
00:14:57,720 --> 00:14:59,040
living in poverty.

296
00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:03,760
And so then to like wearing other people's hand me downs was, there was some real shame

297
00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:04,760
in that.

298
00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:05,760
Yeah.

299
00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:06,760
So that made it difficult.

300
00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:07,760
Man.

301
00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:13,160
From somebody who suffers a social anxiety and I feel like it's only gotten like kind

302
00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:17,560
of worse as I got an adult because I'm more self aware than ever was when I was younger.

303
00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:21,080
I, yeah, that, that I'm getting like secondhand embarrassment now.

304
00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:24,200
Just thinking about how you were feeling at that.

305
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:25,600
That's rough.

306
00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,880
And by the way, G five.

307
00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:31,560
Oh, that is a mess.

308
00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:35,560
Oh, crap.

309
00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:37,120
You were able to stay with your family.

310
00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,240
After Virginia, you got the apartment.

311
00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:44,400
You started building from there on which, you know, I can only imagine what that did

312
00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:49,240
for you as far as like preparing for like later in life, like the fragility of knowing that

313
00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:51,600
everything could be gone in a moment.

314
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:57,040
But in, in the book that you wrote, Josh's living situation seems to be like out of the

315
00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:00,080
frying pan into the fire type situation.

316
00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:06,080
So like when you decided to make that choice for him, or sometimes people let the characters

317
00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:09,760
have their own decisions, like where they wind up landing, but that's a whole different

318
00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:12,680
other conversation about writing.

319
00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:17,520
Was it for the story's sake that you wound up putting him in kind of like a more dire

320
00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:24,000
situation, or were you just feeling like it was the natural progression of things?

321
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:32,360
It seemed to be so the original story idea had him losing his home and having to go live

322
00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:37,320
with his uncle Stan, who is homeless at the time, they're living in an abandoned building.

323
00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:39,760
So that's where the story kernel started.

324
00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:41,880
So I knew that was going to happen.

325
00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:47,720
And how he got there was where I had to think about how did he lose his home?

326
00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:51,000
Why is he all of a sudden living with his uncle Stan?

327
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:55,240
And so that, that's where I was like, well, what could happen where you would lose your

328
00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:56,400
home?

329
00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,520
Someone could throw you out, your house could burn down.

330
00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:05,240
And the, the idea of the house burning down became such a pivotal theme in the book because

331
00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:09,360
it, it started to drive a lot of the choices that he made.

332
00:17:09,360 --> 00:17:13,960
It drove a lot of the, the character development of other characters.

333
00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:16,560
And then it wound up becoming a very strong plot point.

334
00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:17,560
Yeah.

335
00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,440
It was very, it was very much an anchor, an important anchor in that.

336
00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:26,680
And it's, it's good that it, it's an event because an event spawns so many other small

337
00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:29,080
eddies that you can follow along.

338
00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:32,800
You know, it gives you a little bit more play when it comes to writing, but also I think

339
00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:36,360
it gives more depth for you to play with in general.

340
00:17:36,360 --> 00:17:42,160
Speaking of Stan, I wanted to ask, was, was there a, a parallel of Stan in your life?

341
00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:48,560
Because Stan, Stan was a, a very layered and ultimately very dark person.

342
00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:50,920
Was there, is there a Stan in your life?

343
00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,080
Well, that's a money question, isn't it?

344
00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:56,480
Everybody was like, you know, who, who did you fashion Stan after?

345
00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:59,040
Who did you stash fashion grand after?

346
00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:00,040
Oh, that's true.

347
00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,560
Grand was also very dark character.

348
00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:06,320
And so the safe answer is no one, no one.

349
00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:13,400
But the truth is that, you know, all the characters are amalgamations of people that I've had in

350
00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:15,760
my life at some point.

351
00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:21,400
You know, like the character might not be directly my uncle or directly this person,

352
00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:26,400
but I take facets of people I've met in my life and I try to figure out who people are

353
00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:30,400
and why they're doing the things they're doing and the choices that they're making in the

354
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:31,400
world.

355
00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:36,200
And so sometimes putting them in the form of a character or giving one trait to that character

356
00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:38,440
helps me kind of, it's almost like therapy.

357
00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:39,880
It's like, why did that person do that?

358
00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,120
Well, let's play with this idea a little bit.

359
00:18:42,120 --> 00:18:46,400
And maybe I can change the story on the page a little bit, even if I can't change it in

360
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:47,400
real life.

361
00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,800
So Stan is not directly modeled after anyone.

362
00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:56,320
He actually was inspired by someone that I just saw walking on the street one day that

363
00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:59,560
was just had very interesting mannerisms.

364
00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:04,200
The gentleman was walking down the street in November, which is cold here in Southwest

365
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:05,200
Michigan.

366
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:10,160
He didn't have shoes on and he was walking with his head tilted up toward the sky, which

367
00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:14,880
is an unusual way to walk, especially if you don't have shoes on alongside of the road.

368
00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:18,200
You know, I'd be looking at the ground and make sure I don't step on anything.

369
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:24,000
But then he was rolling his hands as he walked and looking at the sky and I just thought,

370
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,800
I really wanted to know more about that individual.

371
00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,800
So that was the initial character sketch came from him.

372
00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:33,920
So nothing to do with his personality or, you know, any life choices he had made other

373
00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:35,720
than that momentary...

374
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:36,720
That snapshot.

375
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:37,720
Yeah.

376
00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:43,720
So a lot of people, when they develop the coping mechanisms to deal with stress and

377
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:47,560
or trauma, they wind up overanalyzing people.

378
00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:52,800
Ultimately, up to the point where they even try to do like mind reading, you know, to think,

379
00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:56,360
hey, what is that person thinking just by the way that they're acting or moving?

380
00:19:56,360 --> 00:20:00,800
And I'm wondering if maybe you didn't pick up a little bit of that and kind of like squirreled

381
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:06,960
away and become this power of trying to amalgamate people.

382
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,040
Like wondering if that might have something to do with it.

383
00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:10,040
I don't know.

384
00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:11,040
I've been going to therapy.

385
00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:12,040
These are things that I've been learning.

386
00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:18,360
That's an interesting question though, because I think I had that trait even before the fires

387
00:20:18,360 --> 00:20:24,160
because my mother also drove Dyloride, which is kind of like a Uber for multiple people

388
00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:25,160
at the same time.

389
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,920
So it would pick you up at your house, but it might pick up other people and drop them

390
00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:29,800
off on the way.

391
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:34,200
And I would go with her sometimes and take my notebook with me and I would sit in the

392
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:39,120
back of the Dyloride bus and I would make notations about other people's behavior.

393
00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:42,800
But I think that came from the book, Harriet the Spy, which I had read.

394
00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:43,800
Oh, yeah.

395
00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:44,800
Okay.

396
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,600
You know, I've always been a writer as long as I can remember.

397
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:51,800
So that was just a, let me be Harriet the spy and I'll write about people and make up

398
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:52,800
stories about their lives.

399
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:54,320
That's a good wholesome way to pick up that trait.

400
00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:55,320
I like that.

401
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:56,320
Yeah.

402
00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,840
I think that's one of the people who are reading Harriet the Spy and Encyclopedia Brown, you

403
00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:03,480
know, the books that talk kids critical thinking, maybe that's where that came from.

404
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:05,680
I like that.

405
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,480
Do you have a shot for me before we continue on?

406
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:09,480
I do.

407
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:11,480
I'm going to go with F4.

408
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:12,480
F4.

409
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,480
That is a miss.

410
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:18,200
I know.

411
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:23,520
Without like digging too much in the book, because the book only takes place like, for

412
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:27,840
me, it felt like it took place over like three or four days.

413
00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:31,640
And I'm not quite sure about the timeframe, but that's because I binge read that.

414
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:37,320
Like actually I had an audio book, which is, which is a treat in itself because the guy

415
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,000
who they chose to read, can't remember his name.

416
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:41,000
Do you remember his name, Ronald Fand?

417
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:42,000
Oh yeah, Robbie Damon.

418
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:43,000
There we go.

419
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:44,000
Robbie Damon.

420
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:45,000
Yeah.

421
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,240
One of the voices for Spider-Man back in the nineties.

422
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:51,840
Actually, great voice actor, brought your book to life.

423
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,000
And like I said, it was within a day that I read it.

424
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:58,520
So you don't get to see what happens to Josh as he grows up, as he becomes an adult and

425
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:02,720
takes all of these experiences with him and becomes whatever he becomes.

426
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:04,600
But you have, you know, you've grown up.

427
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,520
You said you're just still processing.

428
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:13,520
What are some of the biggest traits that you feel in your life are in direct response to

429
00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:17,760
losing such a big part of your space at a young age?

430
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:22,480
I think that I processed some of that in writing the character of Gran.

431
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:24,240
I just want to say I am not Gran.

432
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:25,240
Yeah.

433
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:29,960
No one in my life is that just inherently not.

434
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:30,960
Gran was horrible.

435
00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:36,840
She was a horrible person, but her own choices were limited when she was, she went through

436
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:40,960
some very difficult things and she was really struggling.

437
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,640
And you know, as she says in the book, she's, she's already raised her kids and now here

438
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,240
she is with two more and she just isn't bound for that.

439
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,960
And should she be, you know, does she have to, and that's one of the questions I was

440
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:56,080
exploring, like, do you have an inherent obligation to take responsibility for other

441
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:57,080
people's choices?

442
00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:59,800
She didn't choose to have those kids and now.

443
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:00,800
Yeah.

444
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:01,920
They're a good point.

445
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:07,400
So, um, yeah, I mean, I think I was through the character of Gran, I was exploring this

446
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:09,440
opposite of hoarder.

447
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:16,360
So no one in my life is a hoarder, but I kind of have this tendency to not let things matter

448
00:23:16,360 --> 00:23:20,600
very much, let items matter very much to me.

449
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,280
So, um, you know, when someone gives me a gift, I'm grateful for it.

450
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,280
It has that meaning attached to it.

451
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,720
But if I were to lose that, I wouldn't have a huge meltdown.

452
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:35,680
It's the momentary they loved me and gave me this item that, that emotional response

453
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:37,600
in the moment that mattered the most to me.

454
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:41,480
It's like that, the personification of it's the thought that matters.

455
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,560
That's actually how I feel about things.

456
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,800
If, you know, I just don't feel the need to collect things.

457
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:48,200
And that was really helpful.

458
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:55,000
I went through a kind of a, not great divorce and we had a lot of things in our home and

459
00:23:55,000 --> 00:24:01,400
he wanted to keep most of them and I didn't fight because it wasn't the things that mattered.

460
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:06,600
It was the relationships with my kids and I wanted to keep that civil with their father

461
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,800
instead of fighting over all these things.

462
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:14,480
And I think if I hadn't had that core mentality of items in your life are not what's important,

463
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,040
I might have fought harder in relationships.

464
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:21,080
So that probably pretty much shaped your love language going forward too.

465
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:26,840
You're not so much of a physical gift neater, but more of like actions or maybe words of

466
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:28,360
affirmation or something like that.

467
00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:33,120
I mean, like the flowers are always good, but it's, you know, it's, they're not going

468
00:24:33,120 --> 00:24:34,640
to stick around forever either.

469
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:35,640
Right.

470
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:39,400
So do you think maybe it shaped your relationship with people at all with the way that you handle

471
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,520
relationships like a come and go type situation?

472
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,600
No, I think I have deep, deep bonds and deep connection.

473
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,360
I don't see people as disposable.

474
00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:48,360
I do.

475
00:24:48,360 --> 00:24:50,360
There's a lot of stuff, you know, we all have stuff.

476
00:24:50,360 --> 00:24:51,360
Yeah.

477
00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:55,640
There's a lot of stuff in my family history growing up and relationships with extended

478
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,320
family and that has shaped things.

479
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:04,040
I think that the one thing that house burn burning down did for me is it showed me that

480
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,640
you don't have to be completely alone when there's trauma.

481
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:12,640
And so the way the community came together and helped our family so that, you know, the

482
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,760
neighbor, my baby said or donated her dresser.

483
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:20,240
So I had a place to put the clothes that other people donated instead of just piles in this

484
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:21,240
apartment.

485
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:25,880
You know, somebody donated dolls for, I was a little bit old for dolls at that point,

486
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,240
but it meant something that they cared enough to give me a doll.

487
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:34,840
And you know, I just, I saw community as a resource, not in a way that you like exploit

488
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:39,320
the resource, but like as in you have people to lean on, you're not in this alone.

489
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,280
And I've continued to think of it that way.

490
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:48,080
That's one of the themes in junkyard dogs is Josh has to figure out that, you know, his

491
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:52,680
family might not be great at supporting him and being there for him, but there are other

492
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,280
people around who can be there and help him.

493
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:56,280
Right.

494
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,120
So let's talk about book writing and whatnot.

495
00:25:59,120 --> 00:26:01,160
I feel like it's a good space for this ad read.

496
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:07,600
So this podcast, shamelessly is brought to you by my own book, dink.

497
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:08,600
That's right.

498
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,960
DND and the coffin hold of the USS enterprise.

499
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,760
It may not have burning buildings or evil grandmothers, but it does have a bunch of coming

500
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:19,600
of age and great stories about being in the military and trying not to be depressed.

501
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,800
Pick it up in Amazon or wherever you get your digital books.

502
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,280
And I'm hoping that everybody is going to get a chance to read that, including you.

503
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,360
Yeah, including you.

504
00:26:29,360 --> 00:26:32,560
I want everyone to, to, to read it.

505
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,320
So you know, I'm just going to, you know, shamelessly say, Hey, read my book.

506
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:36,320
Awesome.

507
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:37,320
I have your book.

508
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:38,320
Good.

509
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:43,240
I had a guy who said, All right, I'm flying to Europe.

510
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:44,480
Now I have time to read your book.

511
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:46,560
I'm like, Okay, Hey, that, that's fine.

512
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:47,560
Read the book on the plane.

513
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:48,560
It's a plane book.

514
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:52,640
I am perfectly fine with that.

515
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,800
I am calling out I nine.

516
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,520
I nine is on this.

517
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:01,600
No hits so far.

518
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:03,560
Neither one of us have hit anything.

519
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,560
I will tell you this, and I can't obviously do this on paper.

520
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:08,800
It would be too messy, too many scratchouts or anything.

521
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,920
But when I used to play with my brother when I was younger, my idea was that boats are

522
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:14,840
in the ocean and they move.

523
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,120
So so you cheated.

524
00:27:17,120 --> 00:27:22,440
Yeah, I would put flashes, you know, assure you none of my ships.

525
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,040
They're all stationary ink on paper today.

526
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,680
Yes, yes, they are to their detriment.

527
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:34,520
All right, so you value people, you value relationships, things can come and go because

528
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:35,520
you've seen it happen.

529
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:41,760
Do you ever feel like you are on edge that something might happen in the future to the

530
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:45,360
point where maybe like you're either you're you're constantly warning yourself or you're

531
00:27:45,360 --> 00:27:47,320
making sure that others are safe all the time?

532
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,200
Like, is there any of that happening?

533
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,360
Yeah, there is a hyper vigilance that comes with having.

534
00:27:52,360 --> 00:27:53,360
Lost term.

535
00:27:53,360 --> 00:27:58,240
Yeah, something so consequential as your entire home.

536
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:02,560
The current home I live in does not have a fire extinguisher and I'm very aware of that.

537
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:06,040
The home I lived in before this had a fire extinguisher.

538
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:12,520
This home that I live in now has a gas stove and that is slightly terrifying for me.

539
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:17,040
If I there's even a hint of any smell, I'm like, is that gas?

540
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,280
Are you sure that's not gas?

541
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:24,480
So I'm on top of fire extinguishers or fire or they call fire smoke detectors.

542
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:25,480
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

543
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:29,280
All have the batteries are carbon monoxide monitors.

544
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:30,280
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

545
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:34,680
Yeah, that has up to date batteries and I've got one in the basement right outside my kids'

546
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:35,680
room.

547
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:39,760
I put in I remodeled the house so it would have an egress room when we put a basement

548
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:41,360
with a bedroom in.

549
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:47,920
So there is that just true fear of we have a we don't have a leaf pickup in our neighborhood.

550
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:49,840
Somebody comes and picks up the fall leaves.

551
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,640
And so, you know, if you live in a state that has three seasons, it's really important to

552
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:54,640
be able to get rid of those leaves.

553
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:55,640
Yes.

554
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,760
We have a lot of oak trees and we would break them into a fire pit now and burn them.

555
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,960
But when my husband's doing that, I'm like, unless the hose can reach out to that fire

556
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:08,840
pit, unless you're standing out there, unless you have a metal rake, like I can't.

557
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:10,800
Yeah, it's very hard.

558
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,400
Chuckling only because you're smiling at yourself because you know, you know, I mean, you've

559
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:15,840
lived with your own hyper vigilance.

560
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:17,920
So at this point, you know, it's it's easier.

561
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:19,920
It's easier for you to kind of, you know, laugh at that.

562
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:24,440
And it's like, yeah, I'm the crazy mom always thinking about fire.

563
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,800
But I will tell you, I wasn't home one day and my mother called me because she lives

564
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:29,600
with me because she's elderly.

565
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,880
She called me and the neighbors had accidentally set their field on fire and the fire was coming

566
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:35,760
across toward our property.

567
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,320
It melted the fence between our two properties.

568
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:42,920
So yes, it's hyper vigilance, but is it though?

569
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:44,520
Fire's always around the corner.

570
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,480
So let me ask you, is there a point where you're going to be like, I'm getting rid of

571
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:49,480
that gas stove?

572
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:51,440
Are you going electric sometime soon?

573
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,240
It's going to die on its own eventually.

574
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,040
It's already it's so old.

575
00:29:55,040 --> 00:30:00,280
It's a beautiful antique looking stove, but the oven itself is not fun.

576
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,360
It's like a small little oven, like the size of my computer screen.

577
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:04,440
It's hard to put anything in it.

578
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,720
So it needs to go, but not because it's gas.

579
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:08,720
Gotcha.

580
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:13,240
Well, you got a, do you have a shot for me?

581
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,800
I know if you don't move them.

582
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:16,800
That's true.

583
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:17,800
They are stationary.

584
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:19,800
I'm going to go H five.

585
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:20,800
Oh snap.

586
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:21,800
That's a hit.

587
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:22,800
That's a hit.

588
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,800
You are now on the lead.

589
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:26,800
Congratulations.

590
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:31,200
Well, can't just sit there and not retaliate immediately.

591
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:32,200
D six.

592
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:33,200
D six.

593
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:34,200
What?

594
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:35,200
That's also a hit.

595
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:36,200
Now we're even.

596
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:40,600
I've, I've, I've, I've done the thing.

597
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:42,280
I've made the shots.

598
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:47,320
There were times, a couple of times in the book that the character Josh had flashbacks

599
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:51,640
due to sense of smell or very smell.

600
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:56,480
I mean, smells one of the biggest memory triggering things out there, but you know,

601
00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:02,120
where he would just kind of like flashback to that moment of seeing and just being enveloped

602
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:03,120
in the past.

603
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:05,400
Do you ever have moments like that?

604
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:11,920
No, I do have, I can still smell what it was like when the house was on fire and especially

605
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:18,280
after the house burned down, my dad let us walk through the burnt down house after it,

606
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,840
you know, days later when everything was done smoldering.

607
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:28,760
And I remember the smell of the molted, melted washing machine, that metal, like I can smell

608
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:33,560
it and we're talking 40 years later, I can smell that.

609
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:40,320
And I think that when I smell things burning sometimes makes me remember it, but it doesn't

610
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:41,440
take me back.

611
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,880
And I think the big difference is I wasn't in the house.

612
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:44,880
That's true.

613
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:49,000
Like I think I had a little bit of removal there in terms of the experience.

614
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:54,520
I was watching it, but I wasn't, I wasn't living it the way that Josh and the story,

615
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:59,080
he's in the house when it's on fire and he's not sure where his brother is, where his mother

616
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:00,320
is.

617
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,360
That's a whole nother level of trauma.

618
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:03,360
Yeah.

619
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:08,200
I've always found this interesting for people who create situations like that.

620
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:15,320
Where did you pull that kind of deep emotional trauma response from then?

621
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:17,840
Was it talking to other people?

622
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,360
Was it just you following your own mental process of what it might have been like?

623
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,360
I think it was, it was me.

624
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,560
It was thinking it through of like, okay, we could have died there.

625
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:33,320
What if, what if we hadn't, you know, gone to school that day like my mother thought,

626
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:37,640
but it's also, you know, I've had, it's not the only loss I've had in my life.

627
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:42,760
And I think that there's been other situations in my life where I felt paralyzed by what's

628
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:44,840
happening around me.

629
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:52,240
And that kind of informed that complete abject terror moment of, I don't know how to stop

630
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:53,240
this.

631
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:54,240
I don't know what's going on.

632
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:55,240
Okay.

633
00:32:55,240 --> 00:33:00,720
Well, we got, we've got a little bit of, of inches left in this pool to dive down into.

634
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,560
Do you want to talk about one of the other now?

635
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:04,560
No?

636
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:05,560
Okay.

637
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:06,560
That's fine.

638
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:07,560
That's all right.

639
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:13,880
I'll tell you what, call, call another shot real quick and then I'll think about what

640
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:15,360
the heck I was about to just ask.

641
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:16,360
All right.

642
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,360
Sorry to like say no to that, but it's okay.

643
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:22,960
No, I mean, oh, that actually helps me remember what I was going to say.

644
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,440
So call your other shot and know where we're going after this.

645
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:26,440
Okay.

646
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:30,680
So since I have a hit here, I'm going to go H four.

647
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:31,680
That's a miss.

648
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,960
It's saving grace right there.

649
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:40,280
You said that you're still processing this and it's been, you know, X amount of years

650
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:46,480
later because who am I to age you on a podcast that, you know, that people don't know you

651
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:47,980
that well.

652
00:33:47,980 --> 00:33:50,280
What, what methods are you using to process this?

653
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:51,520
Are you seeing a therapist?

654
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:53,400
Is it just a personal journey?

655
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:59,200
I wound up not seeing a therapist at the time of the fire because that wasn't a value trait

656
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,280
that my family of origin had.

657
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:07,080
My father has literally said nobody can read a book and tell you how you feel.

658
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:11,000
And I'm like, well, that is actually not the point of therapy at all.

659
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,880
And if you'd ever been in therapy, you would understand that they're not trying to tell

660
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:14,880
you how you feel.

661
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:19,040
They're trying to help you build resilience and mechanisms to handle the things that are

662
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:24,000
happening to you and to be able to look for ways to lift yourself up and get the support

663
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:25,000
you need.

664
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:31,800
And so I wound up, I will tell you, I did lose a baby when I was at term.

665
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:37,240
So when we lost that baby and then shortly after that, my, I'll tell you this too, my

666
00:34:37,240 --> 00:34:42,880
uncle was murdered and they found him burned death in the trunk of his car.

667
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,680
And so that was like, came right on the heels of losing that baby.

668
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:52,680
And that the phone call I was, had been close to my uncle as a child, but I wasn't, hadn't

669
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:58,240
talked to him in, in a couple of years, but it was like, my uncle died, not just died,

670
00:34:58,240 --> 00:35:00,680
but was horrifically murdered by fire.

671
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:05,360
And, and it just, just buried a child.

672
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:10,400
And then it just pulled me all back to all the trauma was all on top of me all at once.

673
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:14,400
It wasn't, I had dealt with anything about the childhood fire.

674
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,040
It wasn't that I had processed, even though I had, I thought I had processed all these

675
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:24,120
things individually, but in the moment of experiencing another trauma, it all piled

676
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,760
on me in a way that I was on the bathroom floor.

677
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,320
I'd been in the middle of giving my kid, my other kid a bath when I got the phone call

678
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:35,520
about my uncle and I was on the bathroom floor unable to function.

679
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:39,360
And luckily my husband at the time was there and came in and was able to finish the bath

680
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:40,920
and get me off the floor.

681
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:46,240
And this comment to me was that it wasn't about me, that my uncle's death wasn't about

682
00:35:46,240 --> 00:35:49,440
me, that losing the baby hadn't been my fault.

683
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:54,520
Like he was trying to stay the right thing at the time, but he's remember if it was him

684
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:58,160
or someone else who said it was like God's will, you know, that you can't fight God's

685
00:35:58,160 --> 00:35:59,960
will that these things just happen.

686
00:35:59,960 --> 00:36:06,560
And in that moment I was like done, like no more, nobody can give me anything else.

687
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:08,960
I am not getting out of this bed.

688
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:10,760
And so I did go to therapy.

689
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:16,520
I was able to, through the help of an antidepressant, I was able to start to process.

690
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:20,960
I'm still, it's a life journey processing, the things that happened.

691
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:26,560
And without the therapy and without the antidepressant, I don't know that I would have, I just don't

692
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:27,920
know how that would have resolved.

693
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:33,400
So I'm very thankful that he was able to help get me help at the time because just there's

694
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:37,320
some things you can't carry by yourself and you shouldn't have to.

695
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:41,640
A lot of times, depending on where you grew up, depending on what your family's like,

696
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,960
you get the advice when bad things happen, like kind of like just a shrug is like, Hey,

697
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:46,960
bad things happen.

698
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,960
You just got to keep moving, you know, store that shit away, cry about it later.

699
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:51,520
Throw some dirt on it.

700
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:52,520
Yeah.

701
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,400
And then the next thing you know, something comes up and it's uprooting everything and

702
00:36:55,400 --> 00:37:00,040
you're just looking at the fetid mess of everything in your past, which is what happened to you.

703
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:01,960
Which man, all that happening at once.

704
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:03,400
So sorry about that.

705
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:09,160
But I'm glad, I'm glad that you, you know, you had somebody around you who was, you know,

706
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,400
you got the therapy, you got the, you got the meds that you needed.

707
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:19,920
And have you ever ran into anybody in your family or anybody that you know now who knows

708
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,160
that you might take an antidepressant and, you know, ask, you know, Hey, why are you

709
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:24,160
on drugs?

710
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:25,160
Like, can't you just handle it yourself?

711
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:26,160
Yeah.

712
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:28,160
And I have to be, you know, transparent.

713
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,120
I'm not on antidepressants anymore.

714
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:36,160
It's been years, that was years ago and I haven't had to sustain that, but I know that it's

715
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,600
a resource I can turn to again.

716
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:45,120
And so that's also been helpful because I'm monitoring my own emotional need at the moment.

717
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:48,760
And I would definitely go back on antidepressants if I needed to.

718
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,280
I haven't needed that right now.

719
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:52,960
But you know, there is that stigma.

720
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,520
Like why are you, why do you need medication to cope with life?

721
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:58,080
Everybody has it difficult.

722
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:02,840
Why can't you just, you know, pull up your big girl panties and be fine.

723
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,840
And it's like you being on medication is a way of being fine.

724
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:08,760
That is being fine.

725
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:14,480
Not recognizing when you need help, not getting on medication is not fine.

726
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:19,800
But there was a long period in my life where I would literally picture problems as putting

727
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:25,280
them in a box, putting the box on a shelf and then behind a brick wall.

728
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:30,840
And that's exactly why everything fell on me when my uncle died is because all these

729
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,840
boxes were just stacked up and not dealt with.

730
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:35,240
And that's not healthy.

731
00:38:35,240 --> 00:38:36,240
That's not fine.

732
00:38:36,240 --> 00:38:40,880
I like how between different people that I talk to, everybody's got their own difference,

733
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:47,040
their own mental metaphor of what it looks like to, to suppress, to suppress, to forget,

734
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:52,400
to worry about it later, you know, burying or storing it away or burning it or shipping

735
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:53,920
it away.

736
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,920
When I was young, I used to think about like all the bad things that was happening to me.

737
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:03,000
I'd say up till about 25, I used to do this and I would have like little meditation moments

738
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:09,280
of envisioning a very sharp horizon line and just sending everything to it until it just

739
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:10,680
disappeared.

740
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:16,640
And yeah, I wasn't processing anything like as I found out when I started therapy and

741
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:21,480
then wrote my book, which has a lot of very cathartic things to write in there as far

742
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:25,440
as traumas that had happened to me and how I grew up.

743
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:26,440
Realize it.

744
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:27,440
Yeah, I wasn't dealing with none of it.

745
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:29,840
I was just ignoring it, putting a smile on my face.

746
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,200
Because that's what we're told to do.

747
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:33,200
Exactly.

748
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:34,200
It's a shot.

749
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:35,200
Is it mine?

750
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:36,200
I think it's your shot.

751
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,600
I think it's mine.

752
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:39,600
Let's do E6.

753
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:41,840
Oh, that is another hit.

754
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:43,840
Oh, wait.

755
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:48,280
Last time when you hit something, when I hit something, you got to fire back right away.

756
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:50,280
So since you hit something, I'm going to fire back.

757
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:51,280
Go ahead.

758
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:52,280
As is your right.

759
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:53,280
So I'm going to say G5.

760
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:54,280
G5.

761
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:55,280
That is a miss.

762
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,520
That's what it's called strategic placement.

763
00:39:58,520 --> 00:39:59,800
But I promise you, promise you it's not.

764
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:00,800
It hasn't been.

765
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,400
The more I say that, the more guilty I sound, but I promise you.

766
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:05,600
I think you protest too much.

767
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:06,600
Yeah.

768
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:11,640
I'm glad we had the second go round because one, I'm a little bit more practiced on talking

769
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:12,640
with people now.

770
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:18,560
I feel like I'm more comfortable with the process and like during one of my last conversations,

771
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:23,640
I got to ask somebody, you know, were they glad that their mom died, which is a strong

772
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:24,640
question.

773
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:27,280
I mean, there's actually a couple of good things I think that came from what you were

774
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:29,200
saying as far as what you've developed.

775
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:34,560
As far as there's the hypervigilism, you know, is making sure that people are safe.

776
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:39,520
You have a stronger bond when it comes to the people around you because you know that,

777
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:40,880
you know, loss can happen.

778
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,760
And because you know that loss can happen, you're not necessarily holding on to physical

779
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:47,120
items, which for some people is that's huge.

780
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:51,320
That's unimaginable because physical items are kind of all they have, especially in the

781
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:55,360
consumerizing or consumer based economy.

782
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:59,640
But is there anything about the experience that you're like, maybe not, hey, I'm glad

783
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:05,280
my house burned down, but you know that because that happened, you're stronger in a certain

784
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:06,280
way.

785
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:07,760
Is there a strength that you recognize out of that?

786
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:12,640
I mean, that's kind of echoing back to what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

787
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:18,320
I would much rather be stronger without having go through all the stuff that we've had to

788
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:19,320
go through.

789
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:25,200
But I do feel like you can't experience tremendous joy if you haven't felt sorrow.

790
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:31,120
You know, you need the balance in life of these ups and downs to be able to really appreciate

791
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:35,760
where you are and what you've done and who the people around you are, you know, needing.

792
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:40,000
I learned to rely on other people a little bit more than I might have.

793
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:44,360
If my house hadn't burned down because just seeing the way the community came forward,

794
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:50,360
it also made me more giving because it happened, you know, as an once I've been an adult, there

795
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:52,720
was somebody in the area who's home burned down.

796
00:41:52,720 --> 00:41:58,200
It happens all the time, but I was able to then, you know, help a little bit with that.

797
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:01,840
And I might not have been so I don't know who I would have been without having my own

798
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:02,840
losses.

799
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:04,560
Yeah, that's a good point.

800
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:10,520
I'm reminded it's a it's a big point in video games and books and a lot of media has, you

801
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:12,160
know, there's no light without the darkness.

802
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:14,240
There's no darkness without the light.

803
00:42:14,240 --> 00:42:19,680
Life is very much about balance and some people lit one side or the other sweep them away.

804
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:24,320
I mean, you can you can kind of tell which side is like you find somebody who's like

805
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:26,480
a little too happy and doesn't want to talk about the negative.

806
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:29,600
You're kind of wondering what's happened to you that you want to bury that.

807
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:33,160
And then there's the other way around where they're so gloom and doom, you're like, oh,

808
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:34,160
goodness.

809
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:37,040
How can we help you process what's ever happened?

810
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:41,400
But you know, we can't fix everybody as much as I want to like, I'm a big I'm a big like,

811
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:46,960
hey, what can I do to help even though like knowing sometimes I'm not a position to help.

812
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:54,080
But again, hey, I'm going to therapy for all this.

813
00:42:54,080 --> 00:43:00,400
So let's do one more round of shots on battleship, not alcohol, because I'm diabetic.

814
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:01,400
That's a bad idea.

815
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,120
Let's see, I believe I did the last one.

816
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:05,120
So go ahead.

817
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:06,120
No, I think I did the last one.

818
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:07,120
You did.

819
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:08,120
You're right.

820
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:09,120
I'm reading this wrong.

821
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:10,120
Okay.

822
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:12,720
Then let's say C six.

823
00:43:12,720 --> 00:43:14,720
Is it?

824
00:43:14,720 --> 00:43:16,000
All right.

825
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,120
So is that a full ship or is there still more hits on that?

826
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:20,720
Yeah, you have not sunk anything.

827
00:43:20,720 --> 00:43:21,720
I hadn't sunk anything.

828
00:43:21,720 --> 00:43:22,720
All right.

829
00:43:22,720 --> 00:43:23,720
I'm going to counter fire.

830
00:43:23,720 --> 00:43:24,720
Go for it.

831
00:43:24,720 --> 00:43:27,440
So I'm going to say I five.

832
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:28,440
I five.

833
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:29,440
Oh, dear.

834
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:30,440
Okay.

835
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:32,440
I'm going to give you more than these ships.

836
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:33,440
That was a miss.

837
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:39,720
I'm going to give you one more shot just to give you continuity and also because I'm a

838
00:43:39,720 --> 00:43:40,720
sporting host.

839
00:43:40,720 --> 00:43:44,720
It'd be really funny if I didn't call the shop that I should call.

840
00:43:44,720 --> 00:43:45,720
Yeah, I know, right?

841
00:43:45,720 --> 00:43:46,720
Oh, okay.

842
00:43:46,720 --> 00:43:49,280
No, let's go H six.

843
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:50,280
H six.

844
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:53,640
That is a hit and also no sinking there.

845
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:55,240
Full disclosure.

846
00:43:55,240 --> 00:43:57,680
You were hitting on my aircraft carrier.

847
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:01,840
Have you ever done the, whenever you're playing battleships, you ever do the thing where it's

848
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,640
like all around the ring and just like have a big shield or something?

849
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:05,640
Yeah, in the center.

850
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:06,640
Yeah.

851
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:09,440
And you only get away with that for a couple of times before like the other person like

852
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:11,760
next time they play, they just start getting all the rims.

853
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:14,920
You know, like, I've also clumped them all in the middle before.

854
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,040
Like just like layered them together.

855
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:18,600
That doesn't usually end well.

856
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:19,600
No, no.

857
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:25,520
I will tell you from, I think anybody who's watching any kind of military anything, you

858
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:30,000
know, you don't put all your assets in one area and just let somebody get shelled.

859
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:34,920
So this is the moment where you get to talk about the things that you have done that you

860
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:35,920
are doing.

861
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:36,920
Plug away.

862
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:37,920
Yeah, plug away.

863
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,960
It's hard to like trumpet your own horn sometimes.

864
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:41,960
I know.

865
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:42,960
Yeah.

866
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:43,960
So who am I?

867
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:44,960
Who am I doing?

868
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:49,000
I junkyard dogs came out in 2023 in February.

869
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:50,080
So that was huge.

870
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:51,320
I'm super excited.

871
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:55,080
I'm doing tours and school visits related to that.

872
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:58,920
So I was just up in Rochester Hills, Michigan near Detroit.

873
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:03,080
Yesterday, there was a school district that did my book for the battle of the books and

874
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:05,960
then they challenged me to a trivia contest about my own book.

875
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:06,960
Oh, that's great.

876
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:07,960
So that was that was interesting.

877
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:08,960
I missed three.

878
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:10,960
I missed three out of 20 questions.

879
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:16,840
But to be fair, those were things that changed during revision, who died and when like that

880
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:19,520
changed revision process.

881
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:21,200
And then I'm working on another book.

882
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:26,160
It's well, first of all, Junkyard Dogs will come out paperback in April this year.

883
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:29,920
So I'm super excited about that and reach a whole new group of readers.

884
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,080
And then I'm working on another story.

885
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:33,080
It's a ghost story.

886
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:34,080
It's also about loss.

887
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:39,240
It's also about family dynamics and who's there for you and why.

888
00:45:39,240 --> 00:45:44,760
And this story is its tentative title is Twisted Roots, but we'll see if we get to keep that

889
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:47,000
during revision process.

890
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:51,280
And it's the story of a mother and a child who are playing hide and go seek.

891
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:54,480
And the little boy goes missing during that game of hide and go seek.

892
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:55,480
Okay.

893
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:56,800
Well, where can people find you?

894
00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:00,640
They can find me online at right with cat.

895
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:01,640
That's my website.

896
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:07,280
I'm also on Instagram and Twitter and X and tick tock.

897
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:09,400
I have a couple of TikTok videos.

898
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:10,400
So learning.

899
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:11,400
I do.

900
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:14,560
And also Junkyard Dogs is wherever books are sold.

901
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:15,560
So nice.

902
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:16,560
Nice.

903
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:23,000
Yeah, I was actually revisiting the Junkyard Dogs area on Amazon.

904
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:26,560
And the other paperbacks are available for preorder right now.

905
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:27,560
Yeah, I saw that.

906
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:29,680
And I was like, Hey, good for her.

907
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:33,760
And the reviews are pretty good, except for like a couple of them that I saw were there.

908
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:34,760
Like it's a downer.

909
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:35,760
And I'm like, yeah.

910
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:38,120
Did you read the jacket?

911
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:39,640
Like, you know what you were getting into?

912
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:45,040
Like, I knew that like this was going to be the cover and just having writing with you

913
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:48,160
before, I know you can get dark and gritty.

914
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:50,680
So I was so excited to do.

915
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:51,680
It was a journey.

916
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:52,680
I loved it.

917
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:53,680
What can I say?

918
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:58,160
I could keep gushing about you for hours, but this isn't that kind of podcast.

919
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:02,480
And I don't think reviews are so hard, you know, they're hit or miss just like Battleship.

920
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:03,480
Yes.

921
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:06,920
So it's the book you wanted to read at the time, you know, then you're going to love

922
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:08,960
it if it's not the book you're looking for.

923
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:13,360
Like one person literally gave me a one star and said, I'm very disappointed.

924
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:16,160
It wasn't a biography about my friend.

925
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:21,120
But Junkyard Dogs, to be fair, it one of the inspirations was the manhole murders that

926
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:23,920
happened in South Bend, Indiana in 2006.

927
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:27,800
There were four men found dead in the manhole covers.

928
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:30,160
And so that does play into the story a little bit.

929
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:34,600
So I think he went into it thinking it was about one of the deceased men that actually

930
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:36,680
died in the manhole in South Bend.

931
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:37,680
But still.

932
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:41,480
I'm glad you brought that up because I know we mentioned that last time that we had a

933
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:46,080
recording, but I had forgotten to reiterate for, you know, this fresh recording that's

934
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:50,080
actually going to be heard by people that, you know, you weren't involved with a bunch

935
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:52,520
of murders that happened in the area.

936
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:53,520
Right.

937
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:54,520
Yeah.

938
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:57,760
There wasn't that much trauma going on.

939
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:02,640
And well, and of course, everybody can find me pretty much anywhere at sitting with you.

940
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:04,320
No G. You know, plug myself.

941
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:05,520
It's my own podcast.

942
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:06,520
Why not?

943
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:07,520
Right?

944
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:08,520
Yeah.

945
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:13,880
And I've also been working on my outro, which it took four episodes to finally get out.

946
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:16,680
And it's pretty much just a rehash of the intro.

947
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:18,840
I have been your host, Michael the Blanc.

948
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:23,120
And if you happen to miss next month's episode, well, still it's your loss.

949
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:24,720
Yeah, it's been great.

950
00:48:24,720 --> 00:48:25,720
Thanks for having me.

951
00:48:25,720 --> 00:48:26,720
Not a problem.

952
00:48:26,720 --> 00:48:28,720
Have a great day and everybody out there listening.

953
00:48:28,720 --> 00:48:29,720
Have a great day as well.

954
00:48:29,720 --> 00:48:58,720
Bye bye.