WEBVTT 00:00:05.099 --> 00:00:08.599 Hello and welcome to the So What podcast, in 00:00:08.599 --> 00:00:11.099 which political economic analyst J .P. Landman 00:00:11.099 --> 00:00:13.919 discusses the issues uppermost in the minds of 00:00:13.919 --> 00:00:16.640 South Africans. You can find a written version 00:00:16.640 --> 00:00:19.679 of this content on J .P.'s website, jplandman 00:00:19.679 --> 00:00:24.120 .co .za. I am Ruda Landman, and I am your host. 00:00:27.179 --> 00:00:31.239 This podcast goes with J .P.'s newsletter, dated 00:00:31.239 --> 00:00:36.210 the 14th of October 2025. And the title is Project 00:00:36.210 --> 00:00:41.170 Wollendlela. But before we come to that, JP, 00:00:41.310 --> 00:00:44.409 it's been a while. Why the silence since, what 00:00:44.409 --> 00:00:47.369 is it, July? Yes, we must apologize to our readers 00:00:47.369 --> 00:00:50.229 and regular listeners for the long period of 00:00:50.229 --> 00:00:53.329 silence. Basically two reasons. I fell ill with 00:00:53.329 --> 00:00:55.750 pneumonia and couldn't shake it. That dragged 00:00:55.750 --> 00:00:58.539 on and dragged on. And then I've been... very 00:00:58.539 --> 00:01:02.420 busy and between those two impediments I can't 00:01:02.420 --> 00:01:05.500 do couldn't do the kind of deep research that 00:01:05.500 --> 00:01:08.140 I like to do when I do the compile the notes 00:01:08.140 --> 00:01:11.780 so that's what happened my apologies but we're 00:01:11.780 --> 00:01:14.099 all healthy now and happy and going on and here 00:01:14.099 --> 00:01:17.319 we are with the next episode talking about Willem 00:01:17.319 --> 00:01:21.010 Lela Well, there was also food poisoning while 00:01:21.010 --> 00:01:23.950 you were on the road, poor thing. Yes, yes. I 00:01:23.950 --> 00:01:26.189 was doing a roadshow and developed food poisoning 00:01:26.189 --> 00:01:29.109 and that was extremely uncomfortable. So, yes, 00:01:29.230 --> 00:01:31.189 all these things contributed. But fortunately, 00:01:31.409 --> 00:01:35.349 that's now behind us. So, why Project Fullendlela? 00:01:35.450 --> 00:01:37.930 It's been going for a while. Why do you want 00:01:37.930 --> 00:01:41.180 to focus on it now? In one of the roadshows I 00:01:41.180 --> 00:01:43.480 did in the last couple of weeks, we went around 00:01:43.480 --> 00:01:46.859 the country and spoke to about nine or ten business 00:01:46.859 --> 00:01:49.719 audiences. And I underlined the fact that they 00:01:49.719 --> 00:01:52.819 were business audiences. And in each of those 00:01:52.819 --> 00:01:55.939 meetings, I asked the audience members, do you 00:01:55.939 --> 00:01:57.959 know about Project Will and Leila? Do you know 00:01:57.959 --> 00:02:02.200 what it is? And to my shock and horror and amazement. 00:02:03.000 --> 00:02:05.659 Very, very few people knew about it. In fact, 00:02:05.659 --> 00:02:08.300 there were two of the towns and cities in which 00:02:08.300 --> 00:02:11.960 we were, where nobody in the audience have heard 00:02:11.960 --> 00:02:16.319 about Burundlela. And that made me realize that 00:02:16.319 --> 00:02:19.960 it is such an important program. And that made 00:02:19.960 --> 00:02:22.300 me realize that the ordinary business people 00:02:22.300 --> 00:02:25.780 out there do not have, shall I say, sufficient 00:02:25.780 --> 00:02:28.340 knowledge of what's going on. Why is Burundlela 00:02:28.340 --> 00:02:32.120 important? It is the most meaningful economic 00:02:32.120 --> 00:02:35.219 program by the government, economic policy program 00:02:35.219 --> 00:02:38.919 by the government since 1996 when the GEER program 00:02:38.919 --> 00:02:42.000 was launched. Since then, we've had many economic 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:46.020 programs. We've had ASGISA. We had the new economy 00:02:46.020 --> 00:02:48.919 plan. In Zuma's time, there was the nine -point 00:02:48.919 --> 00:02:51.719 plan. Then there was the National Development 00:02:51.719 --> 00:02:54.319 Plan. And lately, in the last few weeks, the 00:02:54.319 --> 00:02:56.580 ANC has released the 10 -point economic plan. 00:02:56.879 --> 00:03:00.159 None of them are as comprehensive and as focused 00:03:00.159 --> 00:03:03.479 on implementation. That's really the point, as 00:03:03.479 --> 00:03:06.780 focused on implementation as the Volendela project. 00:03:07.219 --> 00:03:10.159 And I thought it's important that we talk about 00:03:10.159 --> 00:03:15.379 it. You go back to 2019 to find the origin. Absolutely. 00:03:15.419 --> 00:03:18.599 In 2019, October 2019, it's now six years ago, 00:03:19.360 --> 00:03:22.120 The then Minister of Finance, Titimo Bueni, released 00:03:22.120 --> 00:03:24.879 an innocent -looking document from the National 00:03:24.879 --> 00:03:29.139 Treasury, about 62, 63 pages, outlining changes 00:03:29.139 --> 00:03:34.020 that have to happen in the economy, structural 00:03:34.020 --> 00:03:37.919 change that must come in various areas. There 00:03:37.919 --> 00:03:41.780 was a huge hullabaloo. The document was condemned 00:03:41.780 --> 00:03:45.960 by some people as a sop. to new liberalism. It 00:03:45.960 --> 00:03:48.180 was condemned by others as a rogue document. 00:03:48.599 --> 00:03:53.379 Somebody said treasury has gone rogue. And yeah, 00:03:53.960 --> 00:03:57.139 there was a huge reaction. A month later, Tito 00:03:57.139 --> 00:03:59.539 Mubuweni went to the National Executive Committee 00:03:59.539 --> 00:04:02.719 of the ANC. And he apologized that he released 00:04:02.719 --> 00:04:05.060 this document before it was discussed internally 00:04:05.060 --> 00:04:09.740 by the ANC. So clearly, he believed that it's 00:04:09.740 --> 00:04:13.400 better to ask forgiveness later than to ask permission 00:04:13.400 --> 00:04:17.240 up front. So that's the background. That was 00:04:17.240 --> 00:04:21.600 in 2019. Sorry, but why? Why were people so shocked? 00:04:21.699 --> 00:04:24.160 What was in the document that was so different? 00:04:24.360 --> 00:04:26.220 As you will see when we go through the detail, 00:04:26.459 --> 00:04:30.199 what it basically entailed is that room must 00:04:30.199 --> 00:04:32.699 be made for the private sector. That's the big 00:04:32.699 --> 00:04:35.720 organizing principle if you pull it through. 00:04:36.459 --> 00:04:39.000 Room must be made for the private sector to come 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:41.379 into areas where traditionally there has been 00:04:41.379 --> 00:04:43.939 government monopolies, like energy, for example, 00:04:44.100 --> 00:04:47.360 like logistics, like water. And with that, the 00:04:47.360 --> 00:04:49.639 private sector must also bring in capital and 00:04:49.639 --> 00:04:52.459 management expertise. And that was quite an important 00:04:52.459 --> 00:04:55.740 rubric online for many people in the ANC. Hard 00:04:55.740 --> 00:04:59.319 for the ANC to make that shift. For some of them, 00:04:59.339 --> 00:05:02.720 yes, absolutely. Clearly not for Mbueni and also 00:05:02.720 --> 00:05:04.560 not for the government, because what happened 00:05:04.560 --> 00:05:08.199 in 2020, we got COVID, the country went into 00:05:08.199 --> 00:05:11.199 a lockdown. But then in October 2020, a year 00:05:11.199 --> 00:05:15.110 after this rogue document was released, Government 00:05:15.110 --> 00:05:17.750 released an economic reform and recovery program 00:05:17.750 --> 00:05:22.269 to recover from COVID. And that program was basically 00:05:22.269 --> 00:05:27.610 premised on the document released by Titimo Bovene 00:05:27.610 --> 00:05:30.209 on the road document. And from then on, that 00:05:30.209 --> 00:05:32.670 became official government policy, basically 00:05:32.670 --> 00:05:38.720 from October 2020. And it was in the sonar, presidential 00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:42.740 sonar of February 21, where Ramaphosa just slipped 00:05:42.740 --> 00:05:45.860 in a little sentence in the speech to say that 00:05:45.860 --> 00:05:47.839 this document is now official government policy. 00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:51.259 And from there on, we had Willem Lela. What are 00:05:51.259 --> 00:05:53.920 the focus areas? There are five of them. It is 00:05:53.920 --> 00:05:58.079 electricity, spectrum release and digital communication. 00:05:59.569 --> 00:06:02.250 Water, freight transport, that is railways and 00:06:02.250 --> 00:06:04.889 ports, and number five, visa and skilled migration. 00:06:05.350 --> 00:06:07.550 Now, you must remember this, we now talk about 00:06:07.550 --> 00:06:13.649 2021, 2020, 2021. These issues then were very 00:06:13.649 --> 00:06:16.709 prominent and paramount. Some of them still are. 00:06:17.560 --> 00:06:19.779 And the point about Project Will and Leila was 00:06:19.779 --> 00:06:22.199 it was a combined team of the presidency and 00:06:22.199 --> 00:06:25.019 national treasury that worked together to drive 00:06:25.019 --> 00:06:28.240 changes in these five areas through the government 00:06:28.240 --> 00:06:31.279 bureaucracy. The word Will and Leila means make 00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:33.879 way or open up. You know, it was get out of the 00:06:33.879 --> 00:06:36.519 way. remove the constraint, remove the obstacle. 00:06:36.800 --> 00:06:39.300 That's basically what the word means. Well, my 00:06:39.300 --> 00:06:44.339 little bit of Zulu says, open the road, the way. 00:06:44.500 --> 00:06:45.939 Well, there you are. There you are. That's a 00:06:45.939 --> 00:06:48.759 very good description of what it is about. Point 00:06:48.759 --> 00:06:53.319 number one was electricity. And that is probably 00:06:53.319 --> 00:06:57.399 the one area that people know about. But summarize, 00:06:57.600 --> 00:07:01.060 where were we with load shedding in 2021? It's 00:07:01.060 --> 00:07:03.139 very important to remember that load shedding 00:07:03.139 --> 00:07:05.170 was the big story. That was the big thing. We 00:07:05.170 --> 00:07:09.730 had stage six load shedding in 2020. We had load 00:07:09.730 --> 00:07:12.550 shedding virtually every day. So the first thing 00:07:12.550 --> 00:07:15.149 that we worked on was to try and fix load shedding. 00:07:15.410 --> 00:07:17.470 And the number of things were done. And today, 00:07:17.610 --> 00:07:21.529 it's now 2025, we look back and the issue of 00:07:21.529 --> 00:07:24.310 generating too little power. That is what load 00:07:24.310 --> 00:07:27.069 shedding is. You generate too little power for 00:07:27.069 --> 00:07:30.939 the need. That has been resolved. There may be 00:07:30.939 --> 00:07:33.860 individual areas in the country where municipalities 00:07:33.860 --> 00:07:36.360 have failed and there's load shedding or load 00:07:36.360 --> 00:07:38.899 reduction, as it's now called, in those areas. 00:07:39.060 --> 00:07:41.620 But the national problem of not producing enough 00:07:41.620 --> 00:07:45.459 electricity has been resolved. But something 00:07:45.459 --> 00:07:48.160 else happened in the process, and that is that 00:07:48.160 --> 00:07:50.800 the electricity industry was completely deregulated. 00:07:52.090 --> 00:07:54.009 Electricity used to be a state -run monopoly, 00:07:54.269 --> 00:07:57.290 run by ESCOM. It's a system that developed over 00:07:57.290 --> 00:07:59.829 many, many decades. It served the country well 00:07:59.829 --> 00:08:03.110 until about 10, 15 years ago. And the rest of 00:08:03.110 --> 00:08:05.750 the world has moved on to deregulated electricity 00:08:05.750 --> 00:08:09.769 markets in one way or another. And with this 00:08:09.769 --> 00:08:11.930 crisis of load shedding that we had in South 00:08:11.930 --> 00:08:16.170 Africa, we've taken the gap to not just solve 00:08:16.170 --> 00:08:18.689 the load shedding problem, but to reorganize, 00:08:18.689 --> 00:08:21.720 deregulate electricity. And I think it's important 00:08:21.720 --> 00:08:23.959 to do that just to understand how far this has 00:08:23.959 --> 00:08:27.939 gone. We have the example of Richards Bay Minerals 00:08:27.939 --> 00:08:30.459 in Richards Bay on the eastern side of the country. 00:08:30.839 --> 00:08:34.759 They are now, it's a smelter. A smelter uses 00:08:34.759 --> 00:08:37.860 a lot of electricity constantly. They now buy 00:08:37.860 --> 00:08:42.940 70 % of the electricity from solar and wind producers 00:08:42.940 --> 00:08:46.100 in the Western Cape. And then the electrons are 00:08:46.100 --> 00:08:48.600 sent across the country to the eastern part of 00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:51.750 Richards Bay. And they run a smelter on it. Not 00:08:51.750 --> 00:08:54.210 exclusively, as I've said, 70 % of their power. 00:08:54.850 --> 00:08:57.789 But, and this is the other important point, they 00:08:57.789 --> 00:09:00.690 buy that power, they say, at about 70 % of the 00:09:00.690 --> 00:09:03.789 tariff that ESCOM charges. So that's how far 00:09:03.789 --> 00:09:06.070 this thing has developed. Just in the last two 00:09:06.070 --> 00:09:09.149 weeks or so, we heard about Glencore, an international 00:09:09.149 --> 00:09:12.950 mining company. who run coal mines in South Africa. 00:09:13.110 --> 00:09:16.429 They have now signed an agreement to buy renewable 00:09:16.429 --> 00:09:20.049 energy from solar and wind to run a coal mine. 00:09:20.330 --> 00:09:24.210 Just think of the irony of that. Now, these things 00:09:24.210 --> 00:09:26.929 were completely impossible three years ago, four 00:09:26.929 --> 00:09:28.889 years ago. Couldn't happen. The law was against 00:09:28.889 --> 00:09:31.269 it. The law has been changed. The regulations 00:09:31.269 --> 00:09:34.570 have been changed. And a completely new dispensation 00:09:34.570 --> 00:09:38.370 is evolving. Now, obviously... vested interest 00:09:38.370 --> 00:09:42.029 in the old dispensation like ESCOM are not keen 00:09:42.029 --> 00:09:44.710 and they're trying to resist and they're trying 00:09:44.710 --> 00:09:47.450 to protect their position everybody will do that 00:09:47.450 --> 00:09:50.049 but it's quite clear which way the trend is going 00:09:50.049 --> 00:09:54.409 and the trend is away from from certainly a government 00:09:54.409 --> 00:09:57.710 monopoly to private sector private enterprise 00:09:57.710 --> 00:10:00.990 producing and selling electricity and the subsequent 00:10:00.990 --> 00:10:05.429 trend is away from coal to produce electricity 00:10:05.429 --> 00:10:10.629 to other sources of energy, like solar and wind 00:10:10.629 --> 00:10:13.490 and so on. It's quite a magnificent change that's 00:10:13.490 --> 00:10:16.190 happening in our country. And electricity is 00:10:16.190 --> 00:10:20.269 such an important basic network industry. If 00:10:20.269 --> 00:10:23.370 things go wrong there, it really circles out. 00:10:23.490 --> 00:10:26.250 If things go right there, you have the opposite 00:10:26.250 --> 00:10:29.450 kind of positive consequences. It also strikes 00:10:29.450 --> 00:10:33.490 me that there's been a mind shift. almost a national 00:10:33.490 --> 00:10:37.590 mind shift, that we no longer think that this 00:10:37.590 --> 00:10:39.870 is weird. That's a very important point that 00:10:39.870 --> 00:10:42.210 you're picking up on. Because we grew up, you 00:10:42.210 --> 00:10:45.429 and me and our generation, we grew up with state 00:10:45.429 --> 00:10:47.789 monopolies in certain areas. Electricity was 00:10:47.789 --> 00:10:51.070 one, but also in logistics. You call it a state 00:10:51.070 --> 00:10:54.549 monopoly, but from the recipient's point of view, 00:10:54.690 --> 00:10:58.389 it was simply the state provides. Yes. Yes, exactly. 00:10:58.870 --> 00:11:01.730 And that has now been broken and is being broken. 00:11:01.970 --> 00:11:04.669 Look, it's a journey. We must accept that. It's 00:11:04.669 --> 00:11:06.970 not happening overnight, but there's no question 00:11:06.970 --> 00:11:09.429 about the change. There's no question about the 00:11:09.429 --> 00:11:11.809 direction. There's no question about where we're 00:11:11.809 --> 00:11:15.710 going. And that is Project Ruland Lela. Number 00:11:15.710 --> 00:11:19.450 two on their list was Spectrum Release. And I 00:11:19.450 --> 00:11:24.389 think we as the users don't really notice what 00:11:24.389 --> 00:11:26.919 happened there. No, absolutely. Spectrum release 00:11:26.919 --> 00:11:31.320 was on the agenda, was supposed to be done, and 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:34.100 was delayed for 10 years. Why was it delayed? 00:11:34.440 --> 00:11:36.659 Well, first, there were lots of political wranglings, 00:11:36.759 --> 00:11:39.620 particularly in a time of the Zuma administration. 00:11:40.299 --> 00:11:42.919 And then when Ramaphosa took over and the politics 00:11:42.919 --> 00:11:45.159 were sorted out, there were core challenges. 00:11:45.659 --> 00:11:49.879 And so we had this ironical thing that... Virtually 00:11:49.879 --> 00:11:51.980 everybody, three, four companies went to the 00:11:51.980 --> 00:11:54.620 High Court to say that the conditions of spectrum 00:11:54.620 --> 00:11:58.240 release, you know, are not fair to them. And 00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:01.379 that was all resolved. And after the delay of 00:12:01.379 --> 00:12:05.139 10 years, a spectrum auction took place in, I 00:12:05.139 --> 00:12:09.299 think it was in March 2022, yes. And that spectrum 00:12:09.299 --> 00:12:11.919 auction realized 14 and a half billion rand. 00:12:12.679 --> 00:12:15.000 for the government fiscus, money which is obviously 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:18.120 welcome now for the fiscus. But the real point 00:12:18.120 --> 00:12:21.840 for you and me is now that spectrum that was 00:12:21.840 --> 00:12:25.200 released could now be used to introduce 4G and 00:12:25.200 --> 00:12:28.940 5G. And if you now go across the country, you 00:12:28.940 --> 00:12:33.799 know, 5G is very available, certainly 4G is, 00:12:33.960 --> 00:12:36.700 and we've moved on from 2 and 3G where we were. 00:12:37.159 --> 00:12:39.639 In fact, I think there's an effort going on by 00:12:39.639 --> 00:12:43.960 the telcos to close down. 2G and 3G stations, 00:12:44.200 --> 00:12:48.559 the public has moved on. So all this is possible. 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:53.600 4G and 5G, which will be of us for forever, has 00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:56.539 been made possible because of digital spectrum 00:12:56.539 --> 00:12:59.720 release. And that was one of the first wins or 00:12:59.720 --> 00:13:02.759 victories that Volendela registered. And we've 00:13:02.759 --> 00:13:04.960 now forgotten about it. But spectrum release 00:13:04.960 --> 00:13:08.330 was certainly a big story. Number three on their 00:13:08.330 --> 00:13:12.789 list is water. Has anything shifted? Because 00:13:12.789 --> 00:13:15.250 once again, from the point of the consumer, it 00:13:15.250 --> 00:13:17.990 looks a bit dire. Absolutely. And yes, to answer 00:13:17.990 --> 00:13:19.750 your question, yes, things have shifted. Number 00:13:19.750 --> 00:13:23.070 one, the Zuma administration in its time abolished 00:13:23.070 --> 00:13:26.570 or suspended a water and sanitation measuring 00:13:26.570 --> 00:13:30.210 system known as blue drop, green drop or no drop. 00:13:30.629 --> 00:13:33.009 The logic was probably if you don't know about 00:13:33.009 --> 00:13:35.679 a problem, the problem doesn't exist. This was 00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:37.720 brought back by the Ramaphosa administration. 00:13:39.299 --> 00:13:41.720 Those reports, we've now had the first versions 00:13:41.720 --> 00:13:43.659 of those reports and obviously they make for 00:13:43.659 --> 00:13:46.179 dire reading because the water and sanitation 00:13:46.179 --> 00:13:49.159 and loss problem, as we know, drop comes in. 00:13:49.799 --> 00:13:52.220 Losses are quite high and we know there's a problem, 00:13:52.279 --> 00:13:55.960 but now at least we know it. And what you measure, 00:13:56.220 --> 00:13:59.080 what you know, you can manage. That's the first 00:13:59.080 --> 00:14:01.519 one. The second thing is we now have 11 projects 00:14:01.519 --> 00:14:05.509 going on countrywide. to a tune of about 156 00:14:05.509 --> 00:14:09.629 billion rand to have bigger bulk water supply. 00:14:10.470 --> 00:14:13.909 So you start at the top, you aggregate water, 00:14:14.070 --> 00:14:16.470 you have bulk water supply, and now you must 00:14:16.470 --> 00:14:18.590 distribute it to various municipalities and so 00:14:18.590 --> 00:14:21.929 on. So our problem now lies with distribution 00:14:21.929 --> 00:14:24.850 by municipalities. They will say, we didn't know 00:14:24.850 --> 00:14:26.710 what was going on, so you started measuring. 00:14:27.110 --> 00:14:29.809 Then you worked on bulk water that is now in 00:14:29.809 --> 00:14:32.610 process and being fixed. Now you've got distribution 00:14:32.610 --> 00:14:34.789 by municipalities, which is currently the big 00:14:34.789 --> 00:14:37.610 problem. And there are two interesting initiatives 00:14:37.610 --> 00:14:40.909 going on. The first one is to ring fence water, 00:14:41.029 --> 00:14:43.669 also electricity, but let's talk about water, 00:14:43.730 --> 00:14:46.990 to ring fence water activities inside municipalities 00:14:46.990 --> 00:14:50.129 as a separate utility, so that the money that 00:14:50.129 --> 00:14:54.149 comes in from water is put back into water, into 00:14:54.149 --> 00:14:56.309 maintenance, into infrastructure, into proper 00:14:56.309 --> 00:14:59.679 billing, that sort of thing. So this is what 00:14:59.679 --> 00:15:02.100 Will and Leila is now working on, is the ring 00:15:02.100 --> 00:15:05.340 fencing of water supply. Because previously that 00:15:05.340 --> 00:15:09.100 money has been used to pay other salaries. Absolutely. 00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:11.480 It went into the general income of a municipality 00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:14.519 and it was spent on general expenses. And we 00:15:14.519 --> 00:15:17.179 know that municipalities overspend on things 00:15:17.179 --> 00:15:20.000 like salaries, obviously patronage, that sort 00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:23.340 of thing. And this will help to curb that. The 00:15:23.340 --> 00:15:25.279 second change that is taking place, and I think 00:15:25.279 --> 00:15:27.720 it's a big one, again, it will take time, is 00:15:27.720 --> 00:15:31.679 to distinguish in a municipality between the 00:15:31.679 --> 00:15:33.980 constitutional obligations of a municipality 00:15:33.980 --> 00:15:37.879 to be a water service authority. What is a water 00:15:37.879 --> 00:15:40.440 service authority? They must make sure that the 00:15:40.440 --> 00:15:43.039 citizens in their area are serviced, that they 00:15:43.039 --> 00:15:45.240 are not overcharged, that the poor gets their 00:15:45.240 --> 00:15:48.820 proper share, and so on and so forth. But you 00:15:48.820 --> 00:15:51.879 separate those obligations from being a water 00:15:51.879 --> 00:15:54.720 service provider. The provider is the one that 00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:57.279 must lay the pipes, make sure they work, issue 00:15:57.279 --> 00:15:59.779 bills, collect the money, and so on. Do the actual 00:15:59.779 --> 00:16:01.980 work. Do the actual work. Now, in South Africa, 00:16:02.139 --> 00:16:06.480 the 250 -odd municipalities we have do both. 00:16:06.879 --> 00:16:08.779 They're the water service authority, but they're 00:16:08.779 --> 00:16:11.289 also a water service provider. There are only 00:16:11.289 --> 00:16:13.750 two exceptions to that. And the one is the Dolphin 00:16:13.750 --> 00:16:15.690 Coast, on the Dolphin Coast in KwaZulu -Natal. 00:16:16.250 --> 00:16:20.230 And the other one is in Mpumalanga. There, they've 00:16:20.230 --> 00:16:23.450 already separated the delivery of water from 00:16:23.450 --> 00:16:26.309 the responsibility for water. One is a political 00:16:26.309 --> 00:16:27.929 function, the other one is a management function. 00:16:28.549 --> 00:16:31.070 So the idea is to bring that across the whole 00:16:31.070 --> 00:16:33.629 country. Now, obviously, municipalities don't 00:16:33.629 --> 00:16:37.009 like this. Obviously, they will resist it. But 00:16:37.009 --> 00:16:40.299 obviously, they will have to come along. because 00:16:40.299 --> 00:16:43.259 there's a fiscal crisis developing around municipalities 00:16:43.259 --> 00:16:47.340 not paying for water. And again, it's quite clear 00:16:47.340 --> 00:16:50.879 in which way the direction is. And that's an 00:16:50.879 --> 00:16:53.240 important follow -up work that Wurundjela is 00:16:53.240 --> 00:16:56.019 doing now. Now, obviously, you can't tackle 250 00:16:56.019 --> 00:16:59.980 -odd municipalities simultaneously. So Wurundjela 00:16:59.980 --> 00:17:02.580 is now focusing on six of the country's eight 00:17:02.580 --> 00:17:05.779 metros to help them to get their water function 00:17:06.490 --> 00:17:10.250 re -established, ring -fenced with proper management 00:17:10.250 --> 00:17:13.950 and running it. It also, with the separation 00:17:13.950 --> 00:17:17.809 of water authorities and water providers, there's 00:17:17.809 --> 00:17:20.650 also a licensing regime that is brought in with 00:17:20.650 --> 00:17:23.910 standards that must be met by the provider. And 00:17:23.910 --> 00:17:26.009 if the provider doesn't meet those standards, 00:17:26.549 --> 00:17:29.809 the license can get cancelled and can be given 00:17:29.809 --> 00:17:32.740 to somebody else. So you can take the license 00:17:32.740 --> 00:17:35.140 away from a municipality as a water provider 00:17:35.140 --> 00:17:38.319 and give it to a private company or a not -for 00:17:38.319 --> 00:17:41.339 -profit NGO or a community -based organization. 00:17:41.960 --> 00:17:44.880 These changes are now possible. The Water Act 00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:47.980 is being amended to make that possible. Point 00:17:47.980 --> 00:17:50.539 number four on the Wollendlella list, freight 00:17:50.539 --> 00:17:53.960 transport, rail and ports. We hear quite a lot 00:17:53.960 --> 00:17:57.000 about that, but how far is the process? Let's 00:17:57.000 --> 00:18:00.769 separate railways from ports. Again, the organizing 00:18:00.769 --> 00:18:03.329 principle is that you want to bring in private 00:18:03.329 --> 00:18:06.609 companies on running certain railway lines, railway 00:18:06.609 --> 00:18:09.910 sectors, and also private companies to run ports. 00:18:10.750 --> 00:18:14.970 On the railway side, after a long period of delay 00:18:14.970 --> 00:18:17.009 and preparatory work that had to be done, you 00:18:17.009 --> 00:18:19.910 must remember, Ruda, we've had the government 00:18:19.910 --> 00:18:23.750 run rail services for the best part of 150 years. 00:18:24.269 --> 00:18:26.349 So you now have to change that whole system. 00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:29.720 And you have to take out the inherent conflicts 00:18:29.720 --> 00:18:32.460 of interest. You cannot expect a private sector 00:18:32.460 --> 00:18:35.279 to come in and run a particular railway line 00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:38.579 if they are not sufficiently protected and independent 00:18:38.579 --> 00:18:43.079 from transnet unfair competition. So you had 00:18:43.079 --> 00:18:45.420 to establish a railway regulator. You had to 00:18:45.420 --> 00:18:48.579 break transnet railways up between an asset manager 00:18:48.579 --> 00:18:53.160 and an operating company. These kinds of preparatory 00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:55.539 works take time. They require legislative changes, 00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:59.160 accounting changes and so on. But that has now 00:18:59.160 --> 00:19:03.200 progressed to the point where 11 sectors have 00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:05.539 been put up for bidding by the private sector. 00:19:05.660 --> 00:19:09.839 More than 50 companies applied. Some 25 were 00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:14.000 selected. And those 25 are now negotiating with 00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:16.839 Transnet, with the infrastructure manager. to 00:19:16.839 --> 00:19:19.740 lease these railway lines, what the conditions 00:19:19.740 --> 00:19:22.519 will be, who will take what responsibility, where 00:19:22.519 --> 00:19:25.500 the risk will lie and so on. And what will happen, 00:19:25.539 --> 00:19:28.619 which is busy happening, these companies interested 00:19:28.619 --> 00:19:32.559 in doing the business will either rent railway 00:19:32.559 --> 00:19:36.019 stock from Transnet or they will bring in new 00:19:36.019 --> 00:19:38.200 stock from overseas. Apparently a contract has 00:19:38.200 --> 00:19:41.259 been signed to bring rolling stock in from Australia. 00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:44.119 So the companies will bring their rolling stock, 00:19:44.339 --> 00:19:48.099 they will pay a fee, the fee will go into infrastructure 00:19:48.099 --> 00:19:51.579 investment, and that way you want to resuscitate 00:19:51.579 --> 00:19:56.160 the railway system. With that, a second tender 00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:59.539 has been put out by Transnet for railway sidings 00:19:59.539 --> 00:20:02.759 to be taken over by private operators, private 00:20:02.759 --> 00:20:05.779 people, to run the sidings. Now, you know, if 00:20:05.779 --> 00:20:08.539 you go through the country, we see a sorry sight 00:20:08.539 --> 00:20:11.660 of a lot of sidings that have been... just dilapidated 00:20:11.660 --> 00:20:13.900 and neglected. So it's an effort to turn that 00:20:13.900 --> 00:20:16.839 around. Because efficient sidings mean you can 00:20:16.839 --> 00:20:20.039 park trains, let other trains park, you can offload 00:20:20.039 --> 00:20:23.819 cargo. It makes for more flexibility in the system. 00:20:24.099 --> 00:20:25.700 That's why you have them in the first place. 00:20:26.579 --> 00:20:28.759 And the fact that they went to wreck and ruin 00:20:28.759 --> 00:20:32.059 actually undermines the operation of the entire 00:20:32.059 --> 00:20:36.099 system. How many little blocks that go into building 00:20:36.099 --> 00:20:38.400 this tower? And I think that's a very important 00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:41.799 point. It is not... You can't just do a big bang. 00:20:42.359 --> 00:20:47.700 It's not like just abolishing prices or abolishing 00:20:47.700 --> 00:20:49.440 exchange control. That's a big bang. You can 00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:52.339 do it one night, government gazette, done. Here 00:20:52.339 --> 00:20:55.460 you have to move a lot of small parts and bring 00:20:55.460 --> 00:20:58.359 them all aligned. And that's happening. So some 00:20:58.359 --> 00:21:00.240 people say it's happening too slow. That may 00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:04.230 be. But, you know, you must work with what you 00:21:04.230 --> 00:21:06.589 have. Just before we leave the railway lines, 00:21:06.769 --> 00:21:10.009 this is not part of Volendela, but Praza is also 00:21:10.009 --> 00:21:13.210 recording some interesting progress. And I think 00:21:13.210 --> 00:21:15.990 our listeners must just take note of that. In 00:21:15.990 --> 00:21:19.529 a future research piece, we may deal with that. 00:21:19.809 --> 00:21:21.730 So those are the railway lines. What's happening 00:21:21.730 --> 00:21:24.849 on ports is similar logic. Bring the private 00:21:24.849 --> 00:21:27.630 sector in. Now, the big one was Durban, Durban 00:21:27.630 --> 00:21:31.319 Pier 2. That's South Africa's largest harbour. 00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:34.019 Transnet has given a concession to a Philippine 00:21:34.019 --> 00:21:38.119 company to run it. Well, first there was a bidding 00:21:38.119 --> 00:21:41.119 process. It was given to a Philippine company, 00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:44.019 one of the biggest port operators in the world. 00:21:44.420 --> 00:21:48.220 One of the companies that lost, I think, a mask, 00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:50.740 then took the case to the High Court. And that's 00:21:50.740 --> 00:21:54.200 caused a two -year delay. Now, you know, in the 00:21:54.200 --> 00:21:57.519 ideal world, you don't want such a delay. quick 00:21:57.519 --> 00:22:01.160 decisions, if possible, no court decisions. But 00:22:01.160 --> 00:22:04.079 that's how it is. And we're now through it. The 00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:06.259 High Court has ruled in favor of Transnet. The 00:22:06.259 --> 00:22:09.059 Philippine company can now take control of Durban 00:22:09.059 --> 00:22:13.480 Harbor and do the investment and train the people. 00:22:13.660 --> 00:22:16.140 So that has already progressed. But then similar 00:22:16.140 --> 00:22:19.339 outsourcing tenders have been released for Richards 00:22:19.339 --> 00:22:23.240 Bay, for the Cougar Harbor in the Eastern Cape. 00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:26.660 And now also for some activities in the Cape 00:22:26.660 --> 00:22:29.559 Town Harbour for LNG facilities. We will have 00:22:29.559 --> 00:22:32.420 to import gas in the near future to supplement 00:22:32.420 --> 00:22:35.380 our energy supply. The more you do renewables, 00:22:35.480 --> 00:22:41.079 the more you need gas to even out the intermittency 00:22:41.079 --> 00:22:45.880 of renewables. But for that you need gas. And 00:22:45.880 --> 00:22:50.079 so we will build LNG terminals and bids for that 00:22:50.079 --> 00:22:52.700 has gone out. So you can see it's the same story. 00:22:53.279 --> 00:22:55.660 Open up where Transnet used to do everything. 00:22:55.839 --> 00:22:58.160 Open up, let private companies come in. They 00:22:58.160 --> 00:23:01.079 must bid competitively and they must bring capital. 00:23:01.180 --> 00:23:03.339 And I think this is important. Nothing is being 00:23:03.339 --> 00:23:06.599 privatized. It's the misconception that these 00:23:06.599 --> 00:23:09.539 things means privatization. What is privatization? 00:23:09.839 --> 00:23:12.200 It's a change in ownership. There's no change 00:23:12.200 --> 00:23:15.859 in ownership. Transnet remains the owner of the 00:23:15.859 --> 00:23:18.549 property. Think of it as a house that you own. 00:23:18.670 --> 00:23:21.009 You get a new tenant. The tenant comes in and 00:23:21.009 --> 00:23:23.809 fixes your house. He uses his money to fix your 00:23:23.809 --> 00:23:27.109 house. And then he still pays rent as well. I 00:23:27.109 --> 00:23:29.690 mean, how is that not a good deal for the homeowner? 00:23:30.150 --> 00:23:32.250 But it's also a good deal for the guy who wants 00:23:32.250 --> 00:23:35.769 accommodation and wants to, maybe a house is 00:23:35.769 --> 00:23:38.809 not the right example. Well, maybe he rents out 00:23:38.809 --> 00:23:40.650 the rooms to students. Maybe he rents out the 00:23:40.650 --> 00:23:42.609 rooms to students. Absolutely. So he can use 00:23:42.609 --> 00:23:44.250 it to make money. And that's what's happening 00:23:44.250 --> 00:23:48.400 here. And then the fifth one on the list, visas 00:23:48.400 --> 00:23:52.400 and skilled migration. Yeah, we all know about 00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:54.119 the progress that has been made there. The new 00:23:54.119 --> 00:23:56.960 Minister of Home Affairs has really rattled the 00:23:56.960 --> 00:23:59.259 cage. I think a lot of that is work that was 00:23:59.259 --> 00:24:01.559 done by his predecessor and he was happy, he 00:24:01.559 --> 00:24:04.839 was lucky enough to reap the rewards. I think 00:24:04.839 --> 00:24:07.539 one must say that. But the fact is it's happening 00:24:07.539 --> 00:24:10.220 and it's changing the way we're dealing with 00:24:10.220 --> 00:24:12.319 visas. It's changing the way in which we can 00:24:12.319 --> 00:24:14.539 accommodate tourists. The work is not completed 00:24:14.539 --> 00:24:18.099 yet. It will carry on. But the big thing, the 00:24:18.099 --> 00:24:21.000 big aim is to make it easier for skilled people 00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:23.980 to come here, make it easier for remote workers 00:24:23.980 --> 00:24:27.660 to come and work here and service their clients 00:24:27.660 --> 00:24:30.660 in the US or Europe or wherever. And the third 00:24:30.660 --> 00:24:32.819 one, of course, is tourism. And if we can get 00:24:32.819 --> 00:24:35.160 those things right, you can unlock a huge number 00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:38.259 of jobs and economic growth. So you summarize 00:24:38.259 --> 00:24:41.099 this actually under the heading from a developmental 00:24:41.099 --> 00:24:44.700 state to a partnership state. Yeah. And what 00:24:44.700 --> 00:24:46.839 my thinking was there, and you would notice there's 00:24:46.839 --> 00:24:50.019 a question mark because I think it's not definite, 00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:53.299 but my thinking is as follows. Since it has come 00:24:53.299 --> 00:24:55.779 into power, the ANC has worked with the concept 00:24:55.779 --> 00:24:58.160 of a developmental state. And they basically 00:24:58.160 --> 00:25:00.380 got it from Southeast Asia, from South Korea, 00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:05.440 Taiwan, and, of course, China, who are the prime 00:25:05.440 --> 00:25:08.059 examples of a developmental state. And the ANC 00:25:08.059 --> 00:25:11.180 tried to copy that here. I think it's safe to 00:25:11.180 --> 00:25:14.039 say that we know it didn't work. The idea of 00:25:14.039 --> 00:25:16.140 a developmental state is that you take an SOE, 00:25:16.200 --> 00:25:18.079 a government company, a government enterprise, 00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:21.839 and they must drive developmental work. How much 00:25:21.839 --> 00:25:24.210 developmental work has come out of ESCOM? How 00:25:24.210 --> 00:25:26.410 much has come out of Transnet? How much has come 00:25:26.410 --> 00:25:29.130 out of our water authorities? How much has come 00:25:29.130 --> 00:25:31.589 out of our very dysfunctional municipalities? 00:25:32.369 --> 00:25:35.609 So I think what we're seeing here is a collapse, 00:25:35.829 --> 00:25:38.549 if I may use that word, of the notion of a developmental 00:25:38.549 --> 00:25:41.890 state and a move over to a partnership state 00:25:41.890 --> 00:25:44.369 where you bring people into traditional state 00:25:44.369 --> 00:25:47.450 functions. You don't privatize, you concession 00:25:47.450 --> 00:25:50.710 and you liberalize. I think liberalize is a much 00:25:50.710 --> 00:25:53.809 better word than privatization. And they now 00:25:53.809 --> 00:25:55.829 coming, private sector players are now coming 00:25:55.829 --> 00:25:58.690 into areas where the state used to be. And to 00:25:58.690 --> 00:26:00.910 do that, they have to work together. They have 00:26:00.910 --> 00:26:02.849 to develop a common understanding of where's 00:26:02.849 --> 00:26:05.309 risk, where's reward. Who's taking responsibility 00:26:05.309 --> 00:26:09.730 for what? It is a coexistence. It's not a single 00:26:09.730 --> 00:26:13.009 existence. So I think politically speaking, what 00:26:13.009 --> 00:26:15.329 we're seeing is a move from developmental state 00:26:15.329 --> 00:26:18.130 to a partnership state. And that's a very new 00:26:18.130 --> 00:26:21.500 direction in our politics. We have a completely 00:26:21.500 --> 00:26:24.339 new dispensation since last year's election. 00:26:25.480 --> 00:26:29.160 Did that upset the apple cart? No, not at all. 00:26:29.240 --> 00:26:34.339 It reinforced the apple cart. The program that 00:26:34.339 --> 00:26:37.319 we've discussed in this podcast so far was started 00:26:37.319 --> 00:26:39.660 by the previous administration, the sixth administration. 00:26:39.980 --> 00:26:42.200 They launched Wallenlela. They launched the five 00:26:42.200 --> 00:26:44.440 areas. And that was basically the ANC. They had 00:26:44.440 --> 00:26:48.220 a majority. They were governing. Correct. And 00:26:48.220 --> 00:26:50.519 so they must get the credit for it and where 00:26:50.519 --> 00:26:52.680 people want to blame, they blame. The government 00:26:52.680 --> 00:26:55.279 of National Unity, first of all, endorsed that. 00:26:55.400 --> 00:26:59.440 The DA in particular was quite keen on Wollendlela. 00:26:59.819 --> 00:27:01.940 And the government of National Unity has now 00:27:01.940 --> 00:27:04.660 launched Wollendlela 2. What is Wollendlela 2? 00:27:04.859 --> 00:27:07.420 It is a continuation of the work that is not 00:27:07.420 --> 00:27:10.940 finished yet from Wollendlela 1, like water, 00:27:10.980 --> 00:27:13.960 for example, and electricity, the development 00:27:13.960 --> 00:27:16.509 of electricity market and so on. But the Government 00:27:16.509 --> 00:27:19.569 of National Unity has added three items to Wurundlela 00:27:19.569 --> 00:27:21.990 II. The first one is municipalities, local government. 00:27:22.609 --> 00:27:24.670 How you fix that, I don't know. That's going 00:27:24.670 --> 00:27:27.470 to be a very hard nut to crack. But it's there, 00:27:27.529 --> 00:27:29.069 it's the priority, and they've started working 00:27:29.069 --> 00:27:31.950 on that. The second one is what is called spatial 00:27:31.950 --> 00:27:35.630 inequality. The fact that we still have the legacy 00:27:35.630 --> 00:27:37.950 of group areas, and we have a lot of particularly 00:27:37.950 --> 00:27:41.109 working class people living very far away from 00:27:41.109 --> 00:27:43.369 the places of work, which is the opposite of 00:27:43.369 --> 00:27:46.450 what you find in a... normal city, if I can put 00:27:46.450 --> 00:27:49.230 it that way. So there are concrete things that 00:27:49.230 --> 00:27:54.210 can be done there. And most important is suburban 00:27:54.210 --> 00:27:56.930 transport. In other words, railway lines and 00:27:56.930 --> 00:27:59.589 bus lines. And in these, these things are part 00:27:59.589 --> 00:28:02.769 of the Villanueva program under the item of spatial 00:28:02.769 --> 00:28:06.250 inequality. Also release land where it's possible 00:28:06.250 --> 00:28:09.650 for access by poor people. And then the third 00:28:09.650 --> 00:28:11.549 one added by the government of national unity, 00:28:12.200 --> 00:28:14.519 is a transformation to a digital governance. 00:28:14.740 --> 00:28:16.599 And the idea is that every citizen must have 00:28:16.599 --> 00:28:20.579 a digital ID and all interactions with the government 00:28:20.579 --> 00:28:23.319 is via that digital portal. There are countries 00:28:23.319 --> 00:28:27.299 using that and the roadmap must now be developed 00:28:27.299 --> 00:28:30.279 for South Africa to do that. That's detailed. 00:28:30.319 --> 00:28:33.359 The point is those three areas. Local government. 00:28:34.700 --> 00:28:37.500 digital and spatial inequality have been added 00:28:37.500 --> 00:28:40.180 by the Government of National Unity to Wollonglela. 00:28:40.579 --> 00:28:43.759 Wollonglela is now housed in the presidency and 00:28:43.759 --> 00:28:47.980 a project team in the presidency is driving the 00:28:47.980 --> 00:28:51.539 implementation. Can this make a difference to 00:28:51.539 --> 00:28:54.900 our dismal growth rate? Well, that's the whole 00:28:54.900 --> 00:28:57.720 reason why we're doing it, is to try and improve 00:28:57.720 --> 00:29:00.829 growth and with that, jobs. And the Bureau for 00:29:00.829 --> 00:29:03.809 Economic Research at Stellenbosch released last 00:29:03.809 --> 00:29:07.650 year a very important research paper in which 00:29:07.650 --> 00:29:11.390 they modeled the impact of these changes that 00:29:11.390 --> 00:29:14.769 Willem Lela is striving for. And the impact is 00:29:14.769 --> 00:29:17.349 that over a period of two, three years, growth 00:29:17.349 --> 00:29:22.490 can move from 1 % now to 3 .5 % in two or three 00:29:22.490 --> 00:29:25.970 years' time. They have since updated their work 00:29:25.970 --> 00:29:28.609 and they're more or less sticking with that timeline. 00:29:29.710 --> 00:29:31.750 take a year or so longer. Trump's tariffs of 00:29:31.750 --> 00:29:36.750 course will cause a delay and other things may 00:29:36.750 --> 00:29:40.269 cause a delay but there's no doubt about it that 00:29:40.269 --> 00:29:42.549 the dividend will come through and that ties 00:29:42.549 --> 00:29:45.690 up with what we know. You look around the world 00:29:45.690 --> 00:29:48.670 when governments embark on structural reform 00:29:48.670 --> 00:29:51.769 you get a productivity improvement and then growth 00:29:51.769 --> 00:29:55.089 and a classic example is India. India for many, 00:29:55.150 --> 00:29:58.069 many years after independence had a very low 00:29:58.069 --> 00:30:02.230 growth rate, 1 % thereabouts. Then Mohammed Singh 00:30:02.230 --> 00:30:05.289 became Minister of Finance and India ran into 00:30:05.289 --> 00:30:09.130 a big foreign currency crisis and a budget crisis. 00:30:09.269 --> 00:30:11.609 And he said, well, we can't carry on like this. 00:30:11.670 --> 00:30:14.950 We've done it now for a couple of decades. And 00:30:14.950 --> 00:30:19.069 he launched big economic reforms. He then became 00:30:19.069 --> 00:30:22.069 Prime Minister, Mr. Singh, and carried on with 00:30:22.069 --> 00:30:25.500 the reforms. He passed away the other day. His 00:30:25.500 --> 00:30:27.759 government was replaced by the current Modi government. 00:30:28.279 --> 00:30:31.140 Modi is pursuing it further and India's growth 00:30:31.140 --> 00:30:34.720 rates now are spectacular. So I don't think India 00:30:34.720 --> 00:30:37.480 ever used the word Project Villain Leela. You 00:30:37.480 --> 00:30:39.700 know, that was not there. But it's the same kind 00:30:39.700 --> 00:30:43.079 of thing. You open up the economy. What was called 00:30:43.079 --> 00:30:46.900 a Raj economy was transformed by Mohammed Singh 00:30:46.900 --> 00:30:49.700 through structural reform. And that's what's 00:30:49.700 --> 00:30:51.880 happening here. in South Africa now. So yes, 00:30:52.019 --> 00:30:54.140 you look at India, you look at other countries, 00:30:54.240 --> 00:30:56.680 when you do structural reform, there's a productivity 00:30:56.680 --> 00:30:59.559 increase and there's a growth dividend. And that's 00:30:59.559 --> 00:31:02.140 the way I think this one will play out. In summary, 00:31:02.299 --> 00:31:05.240 so what? The key point about Volunt Leela is 00:31:05.240 --> 00:31:08.420 it's not another policy paper. It's about implementation. 00:31:08.900 --> 00:31:12.220 And there's a huge difference. So we've had, 00:31:12.339 --> 00:31:14.359 as I've said in the beginning, several policy 00:31:14.359 --> 00:31:17.109 papers. This one is about implementation, and 00:31:17.109 --> 00:31:20.369 we can see from the record that there are actual 00:31:20.369 --> 00:31:22.710 practical results coming out. So that's one. 00:31:24.589 --> 00:31:26.730 I think it's important for business people in 00:31:26.730 --> 00:31:28.950 particular to take note of what's happening with 00:31:28.950 --> 00:31:32.289 Will and Leila. The fact that in nine cities 00:31:32.289 --> 00:31:34.630 and towns across the country, very few people 00:31:34.630 --> 00:31:38.150 knew about it, I think is perturbing. And taking 00:31:38.150 --> 00:31:40.309 the trouble to understand more about what's happening. 00:31:41.380 --> 00:31:44.019 will be good for confidence. And let's face it, 00:31:44.059 --> 00:31:46.420 the smart money is already there. Those entrepreneurs 00:31:46.420 --> 00:31:49.380 who are tendering for railway lines, tendering 00:31:49.380 --> 00:31:53.619 for contracts in the harbors, in the ports, the 00:31:53.619 --> 00:31:56.920 people who are investing in 4G and 5G, the smart 00:31:56.920 --> 00:31:59.220 entrepreneurs are out there. Smart money is out 00:31:59.220 --> 00:32:04.000 there. Don't be left behind. I think the third 00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:07.380 so what, as you put it, there's lots of small 00:32:07.380 --> 00:32:10.220 pieces that must be put together. It's a journey. 00:32:10.650 --> 00:32:13.869 It's not a big bang. It's not a one -eyed stand, 00:32:14.009 --> 00:32:15.970 if I can put it that way. This is a long -term 00:32:15.970 --> 00:32:19.009 marriage that you have to work through. And we 00:32:19.009 --> 00:32:21.309 must have the patience with that. Then there's 00:32:21.309 --> 00:32:24.069 the point that I think we are moving from a developmental 00:32:24.069 --> 00:32:26.450 state to a partnership state. I really think 00:32:26.450 --> 00:32:29.130 that's in progress. Now, of course, the politicos 00:32:29.130 --> 00:32:33.500 will argue about this and so on. ANC stalwarts 00:32:33.500 --> 00:32:35.799 will say no no no the state must remain in control 00:32:35.799 --> 00:32:38.359 and on the other side right wingers will say 00:32:38.359 --> 00:32:41.619 everything must be privatized leave that aside 00:32:41.619 --> 00:32:44.359 for the big majority of people in the middle 00:32:44.359 --> 00:32:47.500 I think this shift from developmental to partnership 00:32:47.500 --> 00:32:50.599 is a shift that fits in with the mood in the 00:32:50.599 --> 00:32:55.180 country It fits in with the GNU. And I think 00:32:55.180 --> 00:32:57.960 that's the way the country is moving from developmental 00:32:57.960 --> 00:33:01.279 to partnership. Thank you very much. Most interesting. 00:33:01.519 --> 00:33:05.079 Thank you. Thank you for listening to the So 00:33:05.079 --> 00:33:08.299 What Podcast. If you enjoy this content, please 00:33:08.299 --> 00:33:10.660 don't forget to leave a review and a rating, 00:33:10.720 --> 00:33:13.460 and please consider subscribing so you don't 00:33:13.460 --> 00:33:16.640 miss any future episodes. Also, tell your friends. 00:33:17.059 --> 00:33:19.640 Remember, you can find a written version of all 00:33:19.640 --> 00:33:23.319 JP's content at jplandman .co .za.