1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:11,240 Hello and welcome to the So What podcast, in which political economic analyst JP Landman 2 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:16,400 discusses the issues uppermost in the minds of South Africans. You can find a written 3 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:25,880 version of this content on JP's website, jplantman.co.za. I am Ruda Landman and I am your host. 4 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:33,520 Hello and as always a very warm welcome to this conversation. This one accompanies JP's 5 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:40,960 research note dated the 7th of March 2025 under the title 40 Days That Changed the World. 6 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:46,920 It's now been a little bit more than 40 days since Donald Trump became the American President 7 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:51,480 and the world has changed. Yes, whether it's 40 days or 48 days in that 8 00:00:51,480 --> 00:00:58,520 period, it really changed the world in ways that very, very few people have foreseen. 9 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:03,360 That's the reality that we're living with. For better or for worse? 10 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:09,680 For better or for worse, I think definitely for worse, not for better. And then I want 11 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:15,320 to start off by saying Henry Kissinger that used to be the American Secretary of State 12 00:01:15,320 --> 00:01:19,400 and probably the most important diplomat in America in the second half of the previous 13 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:27,320 century said to be an enemy of America is dangerous, but to be a friend is fatal. And 14 00:01:27,320 --> 00:01:32,160 that is what we're seeing happening, whether it's Mexico and Canada, loyal neighbors of 15 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:37,720 America, whether it's Ukraine, whether it's Europe, all over its friends that are getting 16 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:44,800 the same bad treatment from Trump. And it's really a question of it is fatal to be a friend 17 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:51,320 of America. And then I'm not even talking about the people, many hundreds of thousands 18 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:58,840 who live from the word that USAID used to do, not only, but particularly on HIV AIDS, 19 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:04,640 but also on food programs, helping people suffering from hunger. And all of that, of 20 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:10,440 course, is now out of the window. And that just proves the point. It is fatal to be a 21 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:14,720 friend of America. But how can he do it? 22 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:23,280 He's tearing up agreements, going back on treaties. There should be a law, surely. 23 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:31,560 No, the fact is he is doing it. It boggles the mind. It goes completely beyond what one 24 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:36,920 can call rational behavior or legitimate behavior in the international order. 25 00:02:36,920 --> 00:02:39,880 There used to be a rules-based order, no longer. 26 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:45,240 Yeah, I think that's the simple reality. Outside and inside America, Trump is on record 27 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:50,440 as saying that judges that rule against him should be impeached. So that's inside and 28 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:57,000 outside America, the rules-based order has been thrown out. So that's the reality. 29 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:03,160 You know, I want to challenge listeners to send me the coordinates of one square meter 30 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:09,480 of land in this country that was grabbed by the state. Yet he wants to grab Panama, Greenland, 31 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:15,720 Canada, and Gaza. It is simply astonishing. Yet he's complaining about non-existent land 32 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:22,720 grabs here. No, the reality is that after this first couple of weeks of behavior, not 33 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:27,960 of just talking, but of actual behavior and actual decisions that have been announced, 34 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:33,280 I think one can only come to the conclusion America is no longer a serious country. 35 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:40,640 You quote the FT who had a headline recently, the Financial Times, America is now an enemy 36 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:43,040 of the West. 37 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:47,600 Think about that. You know, the Financial Times is a middle-of-the-road newspaper and 38 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:52,680 that is their conclusion that America is now an enemy of the West. It's an astonishing 39 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:56,680 headline but I think a very apt one. It describes what is going on. 40 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:02,080 But Trump is actually also withdrawing America from the world. 41 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:07,640 Yes, and that's very important to note. There's nothing exceptional about South Africa. Trump 42 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:13,920 has basically declared war on all his friends except on Putin and Russia, but for the rest 43 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:17,280 war all over. Maybe not warfare. 44 00:04:17,280 --> 00:04:18,720 And Israel. 45 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:28,320 And Israel, yeah, absolutely. But for the rest, he's bullying his friends. That's the 46 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:33,880 reality. Now the question is how must one react to that? And I think we can learn something 47 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:40,080 from his first term. In 2017 when he was inaugurated as president the first time, on his first 48 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:46,440 day in the Oval Office, he withdrew America from the TPP. The TPP is the then was the 49 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:52,060 Trans-Pacific Partnership, 12 countries on the Pacific who over a space of more than 50 00:04:52,060 --> 00:04:59,520 a decade negotiated a very sophisticated gold standard trade agreement. There was protection 51 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:04,320 for labor rights, protection for environmental rights, protection for intellectual property 52 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:09,960 rights. It was really the gold standard of agreements. And the Obama administration in 53 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,320 their time put a lot of effort into it. 54 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:19,560 On his first day in office, he withdrew America from the TPP. It had a shocking effect and 55 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:26,280 a sort of numbing effect on the remaining 11 members. In fact, I think it was the Minister 56 00:05:26,280 --> 00:05:33,080 of Foreign Affairs of Japan said they cannot really carry on with the TPP without America. 57 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:37,440 That is not the way it turned out. After a couple of months, the countries pulled themselves 58 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:42,400 together. They renegotiated the agreement, this time without the intellectual property 59 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:49,040 protections that the United States fought very hard for. That's the irony of it. 60 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:56,000 And they reestablished the TPP under a new name. Today, China, South Korea, the other 61 00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:02,180 kingdom are all lining up to become members of this renewed TPP. So the world carried 62 00:06:02,180 --> 00:06:08,640 on without America. And that is what we will have to do. He's now, as we know, he's withdrawn 63 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:13,680 the US from the World Health Organization, although it will take time to take effect. 64 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:18,480 He's withdrawn the US from the Paris Climate Agreement. He's withdrawn the US from the 65 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:24,400 trade agreement in North America. He clearly wants to withdraw the US from support for 66 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,680 Ukraine, which is not an agreement, but it was. 67 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:29,440 And probably the G20. 68 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:33,760 And probably the G20, if you look at the way that these people behaved towards the meeting 69 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:38,560 being held in South Africa. So the reality is he's withdrawing America from the world 70 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,640 and the rest of us must adapt to that. 71 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:44,240 Where does this leave South Africa? 72 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:51,760 In 2012, that's now 13 years ago, the first National Planning Commission under the chairmanship 73 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:57,040 of then Minister Trevor Emmanuel developed the South African and published the South 74 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:03,960 African National Development Plan. And that plan made two points amongst a lot of others. 75 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:09,920 The one is that power was shifting from the West to the East. And secondly, South Africa 76 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:16,080 must adjust to that by diversifying its relationships and have relationships with all in the world. 77 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:21,120 To put it in ordinary English, maintain your old relationships, but build new ones. Maintain 78 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:25,840 that which you have, but develop new relationships for trade and exports. 79 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:29,840 And it looks, if we look at our export figures, it looks as if that is precisely what has 80 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:36,640 happened in the 13 years since that National Development Plan was published. We quoted 81 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:44,320 in the note, but let me just repeat it. Today, our biggest export share, 35%, goes to China, 82 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:49,520 India, and what is called the Asian nations. Basically Asia. That's where it's going. 83 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:57,080 35% biggest portion of our exports. Second biggest is to Africa, largely Sotheg, 25%. 84 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:02,600 And tying with them in the second place is Europe, also taking 25% of our exports. So 85 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:08,000 between them, you're looking at 85% of South African exports. And then North America, which 86 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:15,320 includes Canada and the US, 8%, Middle East, 4%, South America, 3%. So our exports have 87 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:22,000 already diversified quite substantially towards the East and away from what we can call the 88 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:23,880 US. That has happened. 89 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:29,240 Can I just ask something in between? Many people are very worried about the AGOA and 90 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:37,280 we will probably lose that. But North America, Canada and the US only take 8% of our total 91 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:39,560 exports. Will it have that much of an effect? 92 00:08:39,560 --> 00:08:44,160 Yes, it will have an effect because think of a wine farmer in the Western Cape that's 93 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:49,720 exporting to America. It'll affect them. I think the sectors that will be particularly 94 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:55,120 influenced will be motor car, automotive exports. We export a lot of that to America. And the 95 00:08:55,120 --> 00:09:02,440 AGOA, that'll be affected. And if in general, Trump decides to levy South African exports 96 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:07,720 to the US, which is what I think he will do, it'll obviously make our products more expensive 97 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:13,240 and less competitive and we could lose some trade from that. So yes, it will have an impact. 98 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:21,320 Okay. But you were saying that we have actually already, if I may borrow a word from the, 99 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:27,560 I think the Obama administration, pivoted towards the East, that Asia already takes 100 00:09:27,560 --> 00:09:30,040 35% of our exports. Yes. 101 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:35,800 So this makes nonsense of the idea that South Africa must choose between the US and China. 102 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:42,200 Yeah, absolutely. A lot of people want to sort of almost, if I can use the word, threaten 103 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:46,560 one by saying, oh, you must choose this side or that side. And that's exactly what the 104 00:09:46,560 --> 00:09:51,000 National Development Plan 13 years ago said you shouldn't do. US developed relations were 105 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:55,080 with everybody. Now, if America doesn't want to have relations with you, well, fine. You 106 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:59,960 can't force them to have relations with you. From your side, keep it open, try and keep 107 00:09:59,960 --> 00:10:05,760 it going. And if that doesn't work, then it doesn't work. Then you've got to develop 108 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:12,240 other possibilities. Now, the one big possibility that is beginning to become available is the 109 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:18,600 African Free Trade Agreement, which effectively only started last year in terms of physical 110 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:24,840 exports going into Africa. That's an obvious market. And for the rest, one must develop 111 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:30,280 other markets. There's the Middle East, I think is a big potential agricultural market. 112 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:36,280 Recently, for the first time in a long time, we could start selling fruit to, I think, 113 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:41,000 Vietnam again. So yeah, there are possibilities elsewhere in the world, and that'll have to 114 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:42,000 be exploited. 115 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:49,200 Do we know, do we have an idea, a feel for how bad the impact will be if Trump goes all 116 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,600 the way with his tariffs and levies? 117 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:56,280 Yes, in South Africa, the work has been done by Elna Mulman, who, as you know, is the top 118 00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:02,080 rated economist. And she's run the numbers on what would happen if there's a 10% levy 119 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:08,000 by America on its trade partners, and all the trade partners also reciprocate with 10%. 120 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:14,040 So 10% both ways. And basically what she said is that in the first year, world GDP will 121 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:19,680 be half a percent lower. And then the second year, the cumulative effect will be GDP will 122 00:11:19,680 --> 00:11:26,360 be 0.8% lower. For the United States alone, it'll be 1.1% lower in the first year and 123 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:33,440 1.3% lower in the second year. For South Africa, it'll be 0.1% lower in the first year and 124 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:39,640 cumulatively 0.2% in the second year. But these are, of course, all theoretical exercises. 125 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:44,600 You know, one doesn't know, will it be 10%, will it be 20%? We don't know how it'll play 126 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:49,840 out. But it gives you more or less a feel for how things can pan out. 127 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:54,240 But we are hit badly when it comes to aid rather than trade. 128 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:59,880 Yes, absolutely. So aid, not trade. It's a reversal of the normal story. South Africa 129 00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:08,400 in 2024-25 was supposed to receive from the United States aid to the value of $439 million 130 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:14,320 US dollars. Now, if you multiply that with an exchange rate of 18.50, then that will 131 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:19,440 come to 7.2 billion rand. Now, in the context of the South African economy, it's small. 132 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:28,040 It's only 0.1%. But of course, it has a direct impact on specific selected sectors. So you 133 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:36,440 cannot just dismiss it. A lot of the pain of that 7.2 billion rand not coming our way 134 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:41,840 will fall on health programs, specifically HIV AIDS treatment. As you know, George Bush 135 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:50,000 in 2003, that's already, what is it, 22 years ago, started PEPFAR, the President's Program 136 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:54,680 Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief. That will come to an end, has come to an end already. 137 00:12:54,680 --> 00:12:59,400 The letters have been sent, clinics have closed, nurses and doctors have been laid off. And 138 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:04,440 obviously patients are not getting, they are not getting their medicine and their treatment. 139 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:09,600 And that makes very real the point that Kissinger made, to be a friend of America is fatal. 140 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:15,260 These people may now die, probably will die. I mean, that is the fatality of being a friend 141 00:13:15,260 --> 00:13:22,080 of America. How do you see South Africa's reaction up to now? Was it good, bad, indifferent? 142 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:27,640 Well so far, there's been a remarkable, what is called the strategic silence. The only 143 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:33,480 person who made one comment was Minister Gwede Mantash, who said we should then withhold 144 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:38,680 mineral exports. And after that he went quiet. So clearly some collective discipline was 145 00:13:38,680 --> 00:13:44,840 imposed on him. I think the South African government has been very disciplined in not 146 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:49,800 talking and feeding the flames. The problem that we have in South Africa is that there 147 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:54,520 are two groups. The one is sort of coming from the liberal side of our political spectrum, 148 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:59,560 not the left, but the liberals. And then the far right in the form of referendum and solidarity 149 00:13:59,560 --> 00:14:08,280 are feeding a lot of narratives that South Africa should go out to the US and do what 150 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:15,280 they want and so on and so forth. And that is not going to happen. A lot of these people 151 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:20,600 hope that with Trump's help they can achieve things, or with American pressure they can 152 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:25,600 achieve things domestically, which they can't achieve through normal political processes. 153 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:29,640 I'm afraid they will be disappointed. And the reason I say they will be disappointed 154 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:35,840 is there is such a thing as a reaction or a backlash. And we're seeing it playing out 155 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:40,800 in Canada right now at this moment. In Canada, the government of Justin Trudeau, the prime 156 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:45,800 minister, was in so much trouble that he resigned as leader of the party and as prime minister. 157 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:51,960 He's just in acting capacity now while his party is looking for a successor. But they 158 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:56,920 were supposed to lose completely in the coming election in Canada and the opposition was 159 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:02,560 supposed to be a shoe in. Since Trump has started insulting the Canadians, that has 160 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:07,440 changed around completely. Now that doesn't mean that's how the election will end. 161 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:13,760 Why are the conservatives in Canada, if I can put it that way, on Trump's side? 162 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:19,880 They perceive to be that, yes. And all that what the liberals, the governing party, has 163 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:24,760 done is to just have a lot of clips of the opposition leaders saying friendly things 164 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:31,000 about Trump and broadcasting this to the nation. And there's clearly a reaction there. And 165 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:35,640 I want to stress that this is not a uniquely Canadian thing. It is standard politics that 166 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:40,400 you find an enemy outside the country and you mobilize against the enemy and that's 167 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:44,360 how you build your support base. Then people don't vote on internal issues. They vote 168 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:49,920 on this external enemy. Trump himself has done it with the immigration issue. He's really 169 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:55,000 blown that up enormously and that made him president of the US. So it's a standard technique, 170 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:59,700 but we're seeing it playing out in a moderate, polite country like Canada. 171 00:15:59,700 --> 00:16:04,360 Now what is the danger for South Africa? The danger for South Africa is that if that kind 172 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:09,920 of Canadian reaction takes hold here, it is not inconceivable that the ANC goes back to 173 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:16,240 50%. People will just say, we haven't had enough of this. And if it is sort of right-wing 174 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:23,680 far right-wing whites who are seen to be flaming the fires here, then it may very well affect 175 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,480 the distribution of political support for parties. 176 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,520 The question comes up, whose side are you on? 177 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:30,640 Simple as that. 178 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:36,440 So what, to summarize, the accepted world order has changed. 179 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:41,040 And that's very difficult for, I think, particularly white people in South Africa to accept. We 180 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,700 grew up under the Pax Americana. Pax Americana is no more. 181 00:16:44,700 --> 00:16:47,960 When we grow up, we want to be like America, no longer. 182 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:53,600 No longer, absolutely no longer. And we have to accept that and we must adjust to that 183 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,640 reality. It's no good trying to pretend it's not happening. 184 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:01,840 The second, so what is the idea that South Africa has to choose between America and China 185 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:07,000 is very misguided. And the export numbers tell us that. Our further salvation will not 186 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:13,000 lie with the Americans. It would lie with other nations. If the Americans levy us and 187 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:19,120 put 25% import tariffs, you know, how on earth will you go to exports there? You probably 188 00:17:19,120 --> 00:17:20,120 won't. 189 00:17:20,120 --> 00:17:24,920 The third, so what I think is an important one, and that is the chainsaw that Trump has 190 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:32,120 taken to United States-Europe relations, United States-EU relations, I think could very well 191 00:17:32,120 --> 00:17:37,720 provide or create an opportunity for South Africa. And I was thinking, why did Mr. Ramaphosa 192 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:43,680 invite Zelensky on a state visit here? You know, it's an interesting kind of almost 193 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:49,840 anomaly in terms of recent behavior. And all I can think is, Zelensky is now clearly the 194 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:56,280 one man who Europe wants to protect. Europe wants to be seen to stand by him and effectively 195 00:17:56,280 --> 00:18:02,920 stand by him. By inviting me here for a state visit, one can capitalize on the rupture between 196 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:05,700 the US and EU. 197 00:18:05,700 --> 00:18:08,000 And it's not just South Africa? 198 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:12,280 I think that's a very important point to note. USAID has been dismantled worldwide, whether 199 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:19,120 it's Pakistan or Indonesia or South Africa or Lesotho. It's a worldwide thing. Tariffs 200 00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:24,760 are being levied left, right and center on friends, not on Russia, interestingly, but 201 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:30,320 on friends. So yes, it is not just a South African thing. And we must get over the feeling 202 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:35,720 that it's our fault. It is not our fault. We're dealing with a very particular individual 203 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:37,440 on the other side. 204 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:42,280 Your last bullet point under the sow. What's losing US support will force South Africa 205 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:47,640 to get its house in order. We must display a greater sense of urgency in doing what we 206 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:49,600 must do. What do you mean? 207 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:53,840 We know that we have to fix energy. We know that we have to particularly transmission. 208 00:18:53,840 --> 00:19:00,160 The generation, I think, is busy being fixed, but we have to do more on transmission side, 209 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:04,600 electricity transmission. We clearly have to fix railways. We clearly have to fix the 210 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:10,620 ports. We clearly have to fix water. These are the basic things that we must get right. 211 00:19:10,620 --> 00:19:15,840 And it is at the moment just taking too long. It is simply just taking too long. This development 212 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:23,600 of America, it brings an urgency to our domestic agenda, which we must grab hands on and deal 213 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,240 with and get it behind us. 214 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,400 Because we are in a certain sense now on our own. 215 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:31,440 We are on our own. 216 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:35,160 We have to grow up and do it ourselves. 217 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:39,880 We've got to pay the aids bill ourselves. We've got to find that money in the budget. If the 218 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:44,240 money is not in the budget, we must grow the economy so that the budget can be there, so 219 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:48,560 that we can look after all our aids patients. 220 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:55,280 I must just point out that 83% of aid spending comes from South Africa anyway, but 17% doesn't. 221 00:19:55,280 --> 00:20:01,680 That used to come from the Americans. And that 17% cannot just be left to die. We must 222 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:08,200 deal with that. So I think we must have a greater sense of urgency in fixing our problems 223 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:10,480 and getting our own show on the road. 224 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:11,480 Thank you very much. 225 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:12,480 Thank you. 226 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:35,880 Until next time, goodbye.