1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:11,240 Hello and welcome to the So What podcast, in which political economic analyst JP LanDman 2 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:16,400 discusses the issues uppermost in the minds of South Africans. You can find a written 3 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:28,860 version of this content on JP's website, jplandman.co.za. I am Ruda Landman and I am your host. 4 00:00:28,860 --> 00:00:34,520 This episode goes with the newsletter dated the 9th of November 2023, which you can find 5 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:42,560 on the website under the title, Thoughts After a Visit to China. JP, getting off the plane, 6 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:46,880 first impressions that evening, you landed at what, 11 o'clock at night? 7 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:54,840 Yes, first impression, incredible social organisation. The efficiency with which people and your 8 00:00:54,840 --> 00:01:02,520 luggage and everything else gets processed is simply unreal. That was noticeable throughout 9 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:07,720 our visit. I just want to make it clear, Ruda, just like one swallow certainly doesn't make 10 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:13,200 a sw- summer, one visit to China doesn't make one an expert. Certainly not. But these are 11 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:18,640 just my initial impressions as I experienced them. And the first one is the incredible 12 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:23,840 level of social organisation. But the flip side of that is security. 13 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:27,800 Absolutely, there are cameras everywhere. You've got to show your passport wherever 14 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:33,120 you go. If you take a train trip, you show your passport or if you're a Chinese citizen, 15 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:37,600 your ID card, when you enter the station and again when you are on a platform and you want 16 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:42,560 to enter the train. Yes, security is very strict, no question about it. 17 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:48,480 You were also impressed by infrastructure. Yes, again, you know, nothing really prepares 18 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:55,040 you for it. One hears about these things, one hears about 40 and 50 and 60 storey residential 19 00:01:55,040 --> 00:02:01,800 buildings and so on. But nothing really prepares you for the physical infrastructure, for the 20 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:08,100 buildings, the roads, the highways, the trains, the power lines. Wherever you go, you see 21 00:02:08,100 --> 00:02:14,520 power lines. We took a train from Beijing to Qijian in the Shanxi province. That's 22 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:19,640 where the Terracotta soldiers are. It's a distance more or less from Johannesburg to 23 00:02:19,640 --> 00:02:27,200 Cape Town. The train covered it in four hours and seven minutes. It is simply unreal. Six 24 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:33,320 years ago, seven years ago, that train line did not exist. It simply wasn't there. So 25 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:38,280 what they've done in terms of infrastructure is incredible. What they're busy doing in 26 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:43,560 terms of digital infrastructure is also incredible. You can move around the entire Beijing and 27 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:50,200 never use any cash. Everything is on a cell phone, a smartphone. And people who know say 28 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:58,240 that WeChat is much better than WhatsApp. So it's not just physical infrastructure, 29 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:05,840 it's also digital. And all of this happened, all of this changed in 40 years. 40 years 30 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:12,080 ago, it looked very different, one would assume. Absolutely. When Ding Xiaoping launched these 31 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:20,960 reforms in 1978, now 45 years ago, India, China rather, was a backward, poor country. 32 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:25,100 There's no question about it. The photographs show it, documentaries from the time show 33 00:03:25,100 --> 00:03:30,080 it, people who live show it. People who are alive can testify to it. 34 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,040 Well, it was just after the Cultural Revolution. 35 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:38,640 Yes, absolutely. It started in, as I said, in 1978. And I want to tell you two anecdotes 36 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:43,360 that I think illustrate the point best. The first one is from a gentleman who's now 48 37 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:50,400 years old. 40 years ago, he was eight years old. He went to school in Baozhi. Nobody in 38 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:55,480 school had shoes. There was simply not enough money around for parents to give shoes to 39 00:03:55,480 --> 00:04:02,680 the children. Today, 40 years later, he runs a business with 10 primary schools or kindergarten 40 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:08,920 schools as he calls them. He charges 10,000 renminbi per month per child. That's about 41 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:15,800 25,000, 26,000 rand per month per child. And he's got 10 of these schools in Baozhi. So 42 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:20,720 from a level of income where people couldn't have shoes to a level of income where parents 43 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:27,280 could afford to pay that amount of money, it is simply transformational. It doesn't 44 00:04:27,280 --> 00:04:29,680 matter how you look at it, it's transformational. 45 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:32,640 Those schools are, this is a private enterprise. 46 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:37,360 Completely private enterprise, completely privately run, belongs to him. The properties 47 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,360 where the schools are belong to him, completely private. 48 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:42,440 He found his name in South Africa. 49 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:47,440 Well, that he find his name was South Africa, that we copy it. He calls his schools the 50 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:55,400 Kuro schools. Some people say indeed everything is made in China. 51 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,120 And the other person you met whose story also struck you? 52 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:04,000 The other gentleman is about 45 years old and he recalls how as a young child, his mother 53 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:09,440 sent him on a bicycle to a neighboring village to go and buy some paraffin for use in the 54 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:14,040 house in the kitchen. There was no paraffin available in their village. And secondly, 55 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:18,760 they needed a ration card. There were rations on all products. So he needed a ration card, 56 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:23,280 take that with him on the bicycle, go to a nearby village, buy a bit of paraffin, come 57 00:05:23,280 --> 00:05:29,560 back. He is simply amazed that today there's no limit to the consumer goods that he can 58 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:35,800 buy. There's no shortage of electricity, of gas, of food, of clothes. He can buy whatever 59 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:40,080 he can afford, which is available in abundant supply. 60 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:45,560 And it tells you what happened in 40 years. And what struck me most was that nothing that 61 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:53,760 I read, nothing that I tried and investigated beforehand prepared me for the sheer quantum 62 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,560 of what they've done in 40 years. It's really incredible. 63 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:01,960 Well, all of this was possible because of economic growth. What's the recipe? 64 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:07,800 Very, very interesting. I think it seems to me it comes down to two things, local government 65 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:13,280 and embracing the private sector, or as Chinese prefer to call them, entrepreneurs. They don't 66 00:06:13,280 --> 00:06:19,400 really talk about private sector, but they do use the term entrepreneur as a substitute. 67 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:26,840 The first point is local government. After 1978, Deng Xiaoping started with experimentation, 68 00:06:26,840 --> 00:06:32,000 allowed different local governments, different provinces to do different things. And they 69 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:40,000 basically set up an incentive and reward scheme to reward city leaders, town leaders, to generate 70 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:41,280 economic growth. 71 00:06:41,280 --> 00:06:45,520 But it sounds as if it's on both those levels, local government and provincial. 72 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:50,560 Absolutely, absolutely. Strong national guidance, provincial governments and then local government. 73 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:57,000 China, you know, is a big country, 1.4 billion people. So you have a structure of government 74 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:05,120 throughout. And because it's a one-party state and very strong centralized political control, 75 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:11,000 the political rewards for local leaders and provincial leaders who could generate growth 76 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:15,960 were indeed quite substantial. So there was a competition between local governments for 77 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:21,040 attracting business, attracting entrepreneurs, attracting capital and getting economic activity 78 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:26,840 going. So that played a big role. That and implicit in that embracing the private sector, 79 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:29,520 those two things made the difference. 80 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:34,920 You came across that provincial government that you visited, you said that they were 81 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:39,740 boasting about having business relationships with more than 100 countries in the world. 82 00:07:39,740 --> 00:07:45,160 So that province has reached out far beyond its own borders. 83 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:50,380 Oh, absolutely. The Shanxi province, which is more or less in the middle of the country. 84 00:07:50,380 --> 00:07:56,000 So it's far to the west of Beijing. So it's not part of the prosperous eastern seaboard 85 00:07:56,000 --> 00:08:01,400 of China, not at all. It's in the middle of the country. Yet they have established businesses 86 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:07,180 and as you've said, they established relationships with businesses in more than 100 countries. 87 00:08:07,180 --> 00:08:12,160 For a provincial government to do that, it's quite astonishing. Likewise, we went to a 88 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:19,600 local city, about 3.3 million people, Baozhi, which is also in the province of Shanxi. Similar 89 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:24,160 kind of story there. They reached out, they received us very generously, very hospitably 90 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:30,960 because they want to. They want to have relations. They want to establish commercial ties. The 91 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:35,280 one experience we had throughout was that the businessmen are very, very hungry for 92 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:40,440 business. Back here in South Africa, I've received a couple of emails from people who 93 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:46,840 said, we met you, these are our products. You find anybody who would like to buy these 94 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:51,440 products, you know, please put us in touch and so on. They're the very aggressive business 95 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:58,080 people. And in Baozhi, it sounds as if titanium made all the difference. It's a fascinating 96 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:05,640 story. It is on a river, but it's not a navigable river. It's inland, so there's no ocean, there's 97 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:11,840 no deep harbor nearby. Yet, they imported titanium from Mozambique, from Australia, 98 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:18,400 from North America, and they smelt it in Baozhi. And they built up a titanium industry around 99 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:25,440 that. It's simply incredible. They produce a range of titanium products and there again, 100 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:32,120 there's a drive to innovate and to move up the value chain. So, they're now developing 101 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:37,480 all kinds of products to go into electric motor cars, to go into spacecraft, that sort 102 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:44,200 of thing. They're moving up the value chain. And because you had titanium factories, other 103 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:51,200 industries also followed. They are currently in Baozhi, 13 motor car manufacturers, manufacturing 104 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:57,680 or assembly complete motor cars, and more than 300 spare part manufacturers for motor 105 00:09:57,680 --> 00:10:05,840 cars. It is just big. 3.3 million, that's about half the size of Johannesburg, of the 106 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:11,320 greater Johannesburg? Yeah, probably about half the size, yes. You say that the growth 107 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:18,800 model is changing. What do you mean? China, based on to the world scene, as an export 108 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:24,440 led economy, they manufactured cheap goods at cheap prices and cut that out onto the 109 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:29,400 world markets. Over time, of course, they moved up the value chain and they're now the 110 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:35,040 world's biggest manufacturer of electric motor cars. Tesla's biggest factory for electric 111 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:40,680 vehicles is to be found in China. What is happening now is that they're focusing on 112 00:10:40,680 --> 00:10:45,280 three things. They're focusing on health and health services. They're focusing on green 113 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:53,160 energy products. For example, China is the world's biggest solar panel manufacturer. 114 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:59,340 And they're focusing on digital infrastructure and digital products. Call it advanced manufacturing. 115 00:10:59,340 --> 00:11:04,840 So they still want to manufacture, but it's much more advanced than just making toys or 116 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:10,240 the simple products that they started off with. And there's a lot of money going into 117 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:15,360 that. Provincial and local governments and the national government give incentives to 118 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:21,480 companies who innovate, who experiment, who come up with new ideas and new products. So 119 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:27,640 the growth model is switching from just export led to much more advanced manufacturing and, 120 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:35,080 as I've said, health services as well. The population is also changing, growing older. 121 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:43,280 There will be in future, maybe already, fewer people of working age. Did you see whether 122 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:51,040 they are adapting to that? Very much so. We went to the Geely Auto, 123 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:58,720 Geely car company in Bauri. They started the factory there in 2016 with 1000 people. They 124 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:05,280 now have 350 workers in the factory. Yet they produce more than what they produced seven 125 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:11,560 years ago. Why? Robots. They've installed the whole production line. You almost don't 126 00:12:11,560 --> 00:12:19,280 see people. You just see these robots working and arms and legs of robots moving around. 127 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:23,820 Some of those robots they bought on the market, some they've developed themselves. The price 128 00:12:23,820 --> 00:12:30,200 varied from about 2.6 million to 26 million rand per robot. There's no question that they're 129 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:35,080 moving up the technology spectrum. That's one of the ways in which they want to handle 130 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:40,320 the fact that the demography, as you point out, is changing quite dramatically. This 131 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:46,980 year is the first year that I think that China's population actually was stagnant. Its population 132 00:12:46,980 --> 00:12:52,920 now is marginally smaller than India's population, no longer the world's biggest population. 133 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:57,940 This trend will continue over the next 50 years or so. The population will over time 134 00:12:57,940 --> 00:13:03,820 get smaller. Employing robots and, of course, encouraging more people to urbanize would 135 00:13:03,820 --> 00:13:09,000 still be good big growth drivers for China. That's one of the ways in which they're trying 136 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:18,760 to adapt. They focus on robotics to developing new layers of robots. Oh, yes. After I had 137 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:23,080 returned, there was an article in the South China Morning Post with some very interesting 138 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:30,840 statistics indicating that in 2022, 50% of all the robots installed in the world were 139 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:39,080 installed in China. It is, again, just mind boggling. The same article says that according 140 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:47,120 to some survey done by a Western Institute, there are now 8,000 smart factories, robotic 141 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:52,840 factories in China. The scale is just incredible. When they decide to do it, they do it and 142 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:57,920 they implement. That's really the story that we've had for long now, but certainly in the 143 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:04,480 last 40 years. That actually leads me to my next question. You, as we've said, visited 144 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:10,320 local government and provincial government. Impressions of how the government functions? 145 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:15,040 The first and overwhelming impression is that all government buildings, local, provincial, 146 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:21,880 national are modern, smart, luxurious, a place where you want to work. We were treated to 147 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:27,760 a staff lunch in the provincial government of Sanqi. Well, I must tell you, I've never 148 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:33,520 been to a five-star restaurant with that kind of buffet and that kind of display. This was 149 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:38,880 on a Wednesday. It was in the middle of the week. It's the staff canteen. It's the staff 150 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:46,740 canteen. The municipal buildings are smart. They're imposing. They make our union buildings 151 00:14:46,740 --> 00:14:55,000 look quite dilapidated. It's just a different visual environment. I think one of the impacts 152 00:14:55,000 --> 00:15:00,080 is that the people working inside those buildings, in a sense, have to live up to the standard 153 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:07,560 of the building. That brings us to the fact that in China, for more than 3,000 years, 154 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:12,680 people had to write exams before they could become a civil servant. If you wanted to serve 155 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:18,800 in the court of the emperor, you had to pass an entry exam based on Confucian principles. 156 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:24,320 They still have that. Again, after our return, there was a report in the South China Morning 157 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:32,600 Post that this year, now in September, 2.85 million people applied to write the civil 158 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:41,560 service exam for this year. 2.85 million people. Yeah, it's a big population. That's true. 159 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:45,360 It also tells you how many people want to get into civil service and the loops that 160 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:50,160 they have to go through. Apply to write. If you're accepted to write, well, then you can 161 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:57,080 write the exam and you either pass it or fail it. That's how they built a capable state. 162 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:01,960 They certainly have a capable state. There's no question about that. 163 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:09,480 Why do you think our people, and I'm generalizing here, often so distrustful of China? 164 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:15,600 I think it's us and them. I think it's because they're foreign. The language is very, very 165 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:22,280 different. I mean, if you don't have an interpreter with you all the time, you simply cannot communicate. 166 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,120 And even with an interpreter, it's difficult to communicate. 167 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:30,320 And we haven't really been exposed to Chinese culture in the way that we are to Americans, 168 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:36,720 say. Or European. Or European. Absolutely not. Traveling to Europe, traveling to America, 169 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:42,280 you know, it's really not a big deal. Traveling to China, not that many people have done it. 170 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:49,520 It's completely foreign and because of the language, an alien society. 171 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:56,720 Yeah, quite opaque. Quite opaque for an outsider. So I think the us-them dynamic is very, very 172 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:01,240 different. And that's a great pity because they are there. They're not going to disappear. 173 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:05,440 They're not going to get weaker. They're the world's second biggest economy. Even if they 174 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:12,360 just remain number two, they're an important player and we have to live with them. 175 00:17:12,360 --> 00:17:16,200 May I ask an opinion on the American approach to China? 176 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:23,040 Look, I think it's silly to declare that China is your competitor and you want to stop their 177 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:29,400 progress. This is an old civilization going back 5,000 years. It's the only surviving 178 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:35,440 civilization of that age on this planet. You're not just going to suppress those people. They 179 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:40,640 can shoot themselves in the foot and in the knee. And they've done it in the past. That's 180 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:45,280 quite possible that they do it again. But that is because of internal dynamics. But 181 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:51,400 if you think you can come from the outside and stop people's development, I think that 182 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:55,360 is a fool's errand. That's not going to happen. 183 00:17:55,360 --> 00:18:01,600 That is probably the first. So what? What is the bottom line? What are the takeaways? 184 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:08,160 Well, the bottom line is that the Chinese are there and we in South Africa not only 185 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:11,920 have to live with them, but want to live with them. They are our biggest trading partner. 186 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:16,120 So why would you not want to have good relations with the biggest trading partner that you 187 00:18:16,120 --> 00:18:20,320 have? The United States is our second biggest trading partner and we would love to have 188 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:26,920 good relations with them in spite of their silly ambassadors, silly comments. So be on 189 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:33,160 good terms with the people that you do business with, both the United States and China. 190 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:39,120 I think the second so what is if we want to build a capable state, and I think all South 191 00:18:39,120 --> 00:18:42,760 Africans want to do that, we don't have a capable state. I think we can all agree on 192 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:48,200 that. Just look at the state of many of our local governments. If we want to build a capable 193 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:52,440 state, it requires a specific and focused effort. It's not just going to happen by 194 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:58,760 itself. I think the idea of entrance exams is a good idea. We started to some extent 195 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:04,520 with that. You need certain minimum qualifications for appointment in financial positions, for 196 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:09,360 example, but I think we can make it much, much bigger than that. 197 00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:15,480 I think this is the third so what is let's learn from the Chinese on pragmatism. They 198 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:21,080 did not let ideology develop their economy. They let pragmatism develop their economy 199 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:27,720 and they said to local governments, experiment, play around, see what works, attract people 200 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:33,240 and then you reward the local governments which generate the highest growth. So pragmatism 201 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:34,760 is the big story. 202 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,320 What's that wonderful quote of Deng Xiaoping? 203 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:42,000 Yeah, Deng Xiaoping reputed to have said, what does it matter if the cat is black or 204 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:47,720 white as long as it catches the mice? And I think that kind of pragmatism is extremely 205 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:51,960 important. And then lastly, as I've said, they may shoot themselves in the foot. They 206 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:57,360 may shoot themselves in both feet. That's quite possible. They've done it before, but 207 00:19:57,360 --> 00:20:01,280 they will determine their destiny, not people outside China. 208 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:09,160 Thank you so much. I want to end with one question for listeners who may want to understand 209 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:16,680 something about China. What are the sources that are available to South Africans? 210 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:22,440 Look, there are a couple of very good books available. I found personally in my own life 211 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:26,720 that subscribing to the South China Morning Post, which I've done now for two or three 212 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:30,720 years have opened my eyes to a different world. 213 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:32,720 And that's available online? 214 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:38,040 And that's available online. I read it every day and it gives you a feel for what's happening 215 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:42,600 in the other part of the world. And there's some really good books. I started my reading 216 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:50,720 journey on China a couple of years ago with Henry Kissinger's book on China. It's as good 217 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:57,520 a starting point as any. And from there you can grow into other literature and learn more. 218 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:03,080 I've also come across very good podcasts. The Economist, for example, does very good 219 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:10,360 podcasts. They have a separate one on China. I think it's called Drum Tower. Also easy 220 00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:12,360 listening and very informative. 221 00:21:12,360 --> 00:21:17,760 Yeah, and it just gives one a different perspective and it introduces you to a world other than 222 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,920 the one in which you spend your every day. 223 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:21,920 Thank you very much. 224 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:26,360 Thank you. 225 00:21:26,360 --> 00:21:31,760 Thank you for listening to this episode of the So What podcast. If you like it, please 226 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:39,160 subscribe, rate and share. This is the last one for 2023. If you haven't already, you 227 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:47,000 might want to listen to the 10 other episodes available. And we'll be back in February 2024. 228 00:21:47,000 --> 00:22:02,280 Until then, goodbye.