1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:11,200 Hello and welcome to the So What podcast in which political economic analyst JP Landman 2 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:15,520 discusses the issues uppermost in the minds of South Africans. 3 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:21,520 You can find a written version of this content on JP's website jplandman.co.au. 4 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:28,720 I am Ruda Landman and I am your host. 5 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:33,560 These first few recordings were done at our dining room table but we will soon be moving 6 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,560 into a studio. 7 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:42,360 Hello and welcome to another recording to go with JP's latest newsletter. 8 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:48,760 This one is dated the 20th of October 2022, corruption and consequences. 9 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:53,040 It is your annual corruption update if I can put it that way. 10 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:55,040 It's a bit later than usual, why? 11 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:57,240 Yes, normally I do it in August. 12 00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:58,560 You're quite right. 13 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:04,680 This year I delayed it because in May the National Director of Public Prosecution, some 14 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:11,080 Shomina Bartoy and the head of the Hawks committed in parliament that they will bring nine high 15 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:17,920 profile arrests, nine high profile cases to the courts by the end of September. 16 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:23,600 So I delayed this note to see what the status was at the end of September. 17 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:26,200 And we start with the Gupta brothers. 18 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:32,080 Absolutely, a month after Ms. Bartoy made that commitment to parliament, the two Gupta 19 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:38,720 brothers were arrested in Dubai on a red notice from Interpol, of course initiated by South 20 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:39,720 Africa. 21 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:41,280 They are kept in jail. 22 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:45,040 They've applied for bail a number of times but they didn't get it. 23 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:51,720 Their extradition to South Africa is now dependent on the court decision in that country in Dubai. 24 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:56,240 The other case, the second case, the big one is the Freda Dairy Project, also known as 25 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:57,240 Estina. 26 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:01,600 They're 17 accused, including a former cabinet minister. 27 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:04,560 Mr. Zwane appeared as accused. 28 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:09,840 They appeared next to two Gupta companies as well as a host of other people. 29 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:16,240 One of the nice juicy parts of this was that Iqbal Sharma, an associate of Mr. Gupta's, 30 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:21,000 who had a very, very high lavish lifestyle in Pretoria, had to spend a few nights in 31 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:23,760 jail before he could get his bail. 32 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:25,520 That must have been uncomfortable. 33 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:27,080 So they've been prosecuted. 34 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:32,320 Zwane stepped aside from his positions in ANC, where he was a senior person, he was a member 35 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:38,840 of ANC, being a former cabinet minister and he's now out of the game, so to speak. 36 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:43,760 Then the other big free state case is the asbestos case, which involves Esh Mahashuleh 37 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:45,760 and 18 other accused. 38 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:53,520 Now the aronical thing here is Mr. Mahashuleh and some of his accused wanted to take the 39 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:58,440 prosecutor on appeal before the court started on certain technical points. 40 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:03,120 They lost in a high court and they're now appealing for those technical points to the 41 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,720 appeal court in Blumenbeet. 42 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:10,120 The aronical outcome of that is, as long as the court case is not settled, that takes 43 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:15,200 Mr. Mahashuleh out of any ANC elections, which will happen in December. 44 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:20,760 Then there are three other cases which are interesting because they go back a long time 45 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,600 and they're relatively small in state capture terms. 46 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:28,160 Money is still at stake, but the amounts are fairly small. 47 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:35,600 The one is the South African Express case, where people eight years ago in 2014 defrauded 48 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:39,760 the North West government of a 158 million round. 49 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:45,680 The NPA said they specifically took that case, or is bringing that case to court and arrested 50 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:52,200 the people concerned because it has all the elements of a typical state capture case. 51 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:54,200 Then another one, case number five. 52 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:58,560 Sorry, but how did SA Express get involved in North West? 53 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:04,320 Well it was about landing rights for SA Express from, I presume, where I'm able to be important 54 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:06,600 of West, I presume, in my king. 55 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:08,680 I don't know the details of the case. 56 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:14,920 Then a case that goes back even further, 12 years to 2010, is the case of the Winnie 57 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:19,280 Mardikis, the Zellam and the Elam Museum, which was built. 58 00:04:19,280 --> 00:04:24,880 A number of people, including two firms of architects, have been arrested and are accused 59 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:27,600 by the NPA of defrauding the state. 60 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:32,440 The amount of money is not a lot, again in the context of state capture, only 700,000, 61 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:38,160 but the symbolic value of the Winnie Mardikis, Elam and Elam Museum speaks for itself. 62 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,480 Then the last one, which is case number eight, is quite interesting. 63 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:46,720 It's a former commissioner of police and three former generals in the police force in crime 64 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:52,080 intelligence who have been accused with a number of private sector business people for 65 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:54,040 procurement fraud. 66 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:57,520 The amounts were 33 and 54 million. 67 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:01,880 Aside from the criminal prosecution, what is really interesting is that the SIU, the 68 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:08,520 official investigating unit, have confiscated the assets of these police generals. 69 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:14,880 You will be interested to know that 19 immovable properties in Sant and Pretoria, Boxburg, 70 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:20,200 Springs and Sesselberg were confiscated, as well as 115 vehicles. 71 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:24,360 I can't imagine how one drives around in 115 vehicles. 72 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:29,480 Clearly the high life of the previous police commissioners, as well as those private business 73 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:30,480 people. 74 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:32,720 Clearly their high life is now over. 75 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:38,080 So that gives us six court cases of the nine that the director promised. 76 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,400 At Transnet there were some fairly big developments. 77 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:48,680 In total, 10 people that were previously headhunters like Brian Mulafi, who is the CEO and like 78 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:54,160 Anoy Singh, who is the chief financial officer, have been arrested and the 10 of them are 79 00:05:54,160 --> 00:06:01,000 appearing caught on a number of corruption charges related to the purchase of locomotives 80 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:02,760 from a Chinese company. 81 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,680 We'll have to see how that case goes on the criminal side. 82 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:11,080 On the civil side, we can take comfort from the fact that Transnet and the SIU again were 83 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:18,680 successful in having a contract of 54 billion ram for those 1000 locomotives set aside. 84 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:24,400 The four companies involved in the case, one was Canadian, one American and two Chinese 85 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:30,800 companies refused to provide spare parts to the current Transnet locomotive fleet, as long 86 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:34,240 as there was a dispute about the 54 billion ram. 87 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:38,960 That dispute is now over because the contract was set aside and according to news reports, 88 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:44,400 Transnet is close to finalizing a deal with those four original equipment manufacturers 89 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:45,960 to supply spare parts. 90 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:53,600 The lack of spare parts is one of the reasons why Transnet is performing so poorly. 91 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:57,560 Hopefully, that will help to improve their performance. 92 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:02,760 Then I can just say for the sake of Transnet pensioners that the two Transnet pension funds, 93 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:09,800 the Transnet pension fund as well as the second defined benefit fund have both reclaimed more 94 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,520 than a billion ram that were paid to them from Regiments Capital. 95 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:19,160 The Regiments Capital you will know is a good associated company that creamed a lot of the 96 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:21,480 state capture funds. 97 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:26,840 Well it's actually not the only problem that is facing Regiments Capital, not so. 98 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:27,840 Absolutely. 99 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:29,720 Regiments Capital was put into liquidation. 100 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:34,400 They're fighting to get it out, but as they were getting out of liquidation, SARS brought 101 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:38,320 a 700 million ram claim against them and they're not out of it yet. 102 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:44,640 What I find interesting about the SIU Transnet on the one hand and SARS on the other hand, 103 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:50,400 the actions is that it indicates a degree of coordination between different state agencies. 104 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:55,920 I suspect, but I don't know this, Rida, that the Fusion Center, which was created 18 months, 105 00:07:55,920 --> 00:08:02,360 two years ago, is playing a very big role in organizing this coordination. 106 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:04,720 That is exactly why this called the Fusion Center. 107 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:10,360 They bring together different law agencies, law enforcement agencies to pursue corrupt 108 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:11,360 people. 109 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:14,960 And there's also been action against another company, Bain. 110 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:15,960 Yeah. 111 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:22,720 Now Bain, way back in 2018, repaid the 164 million ram in fees that they got from SARS 112 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:25,280 for the rubbish advice that they gave there. 113 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:26,640 So that is done and dusted. 114 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:31,720 But what has happened this September is that Bain was banned by the National Treasury from 115 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:36,000 participating in any public sector contracts in South Africa for a decade. 116 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:40,320 Now private companies, of course, can still use Bain if they want to, but they're excluded 117 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:44,000 from all public sector work and that must be quite a blow. 118 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:51,280 Then we turn to Escom and here you say no recent high profile arrests, but one arrest 119 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:53,240 which did catch your eye. 120 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:54,240 Absolutely. 121 00:08:54,240 --> 00:09:00,000 Two people that previously worked for the Swiss company ABP, Asiaban Bavieri, were arrested 122 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:03,920 together with their wives, so it's four people and they appeared in court. 123 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:09,160 Apparently what happened is there was a contract between ABP and Escom for 25 million and over 124 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:18,000 time that contract was increased from 25 million to 520 million through what is called variation 125 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:19,000 orders. 126 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:25,320 Now variation orders is a fairly standard thing, but the idea is that it must be justified. 127 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:26,760 And this was clearly not the case. 128 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:32,400 ABP is cooperating with the South African authorities, but they've already repaid 1.6 billion grand 129 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:38,440 to Escom and they've made provision in their latest set of accounts for another 6 billion 130 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:45,320 grand as possible damages for costs related to corruption at the Kusilip Power Station. 131 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:46,960 So we're talking really big money here. 132 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:51,760 Now ABP is a very big international company, been around for a long time and even they 133 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,080 were snared in this. 134 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:58,960 And it's very gratifying that they're working with the South African government, but like 135 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:05,400 Payne and like McKinsey and like other companies who had to repay money, well they also had 136 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:06,400 to do that. 137 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:11,600 Now the interesting thing about this case is although the two people that worked at ABP 138 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:18,160 and their wives are not high-profile individuals, they are now in court, they have been charged 139 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:23,680 and the rumors have it or reports have it rather that this contract could be linked to other 140 00:10:23,680 --> 00:10:26,400 senior people that used to work at Escom. 141 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:33,160 And you can think of who the names are and hopefully we will see more arrests. 142 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:39,120 So that was a race number 8, not high-profile, but certainly in the race that was being done. 143 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:41,680 Escom is the big area of state capture. 144 00:10:41,680 --> 00:10:48,880 I mean the Hawks and the SIU just this week have or gave an overview to parliament of their 145 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:54,080 work, the criminal work and the civil work on Escom corruption and it's a horrifying 146 00:10:54,080 --> 00:11:02,320 picture of networks and plain old-fashioned stealing and looting, bomb threatening people 147 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:03,320 and so on. 148 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:09,480 The Hawks are working on something like 55 cases, they already have some 18 cases in 149 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:10,480 court. 150 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:17,480 The SIU on the civil side succeeded in setting aside two contracts for coal supply to Escom 151 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,120 worth 10.2 billion a round. 152 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:24,440 These were long-term contracts and they were found to be invalid and set aside. 153 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:30,320 The SIU is also claiming 3.8 billion round from former directors and managers that used 154 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:33,880 to be with Escom as well as a number of private companies. 155 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:38,040 So there's a lot going on at Escom, now they're by proper debt. 156 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:41,960 It just sounds, it was corrupt at every level. 157 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:44,920 It's not only the major big contracts. 158 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:48,040 It's also at individual power stations. 159 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,560 Oh no, absolutely, absolutely. 160 00:11:50,560 --> 00:11:54,840 And to Tuka power station for example is fingered very prominently but it's not the only one. 161 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:57,160 Yeah, as you say, big fish and small fish. 162 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,040 There's one guy who was an Escom employee. 163 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:06,120 He then resigned, he became a supplier and Escom took action against him, fingered him 164 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:10,640 and within a couple of hours after he was fingered he repaid Escom 1.2 million. 165 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:16,120 Now it's not big money and if only all people were that cooperative but it proves your point 166 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,040 that some people were small fry. 167 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:23,480 So there's big fry, there's small fry and everybody is frying the consumer. 168 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:28,840 But there is one arrest that you say is puzzlingly going nowhere. 169 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:35,160 Yeah, that is in the first half of 2021, so it's about 15 months ago. 170 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:40,320 Four people were arrested for 1.2 billion a round and each wrote a kusili. 171 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:45,680 It included Mike Lomas who was a prominent South African businessman. 172 00:12:45,680 --> 00:12:49,480 He was arrested in the UK along with three people in South Africa. 173 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:54,000 The four of them have been charged last year already and this case is constantly being 174 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:55,000 postponed. 175 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:56,000 It's not progressing. 176 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:02,840 Now part of the postponement was because the defense lawyers, some of them are pulling 177 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:07,240 all kinds of tricks but also because Lomas is still in the UK. 178 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:12,080 He was released by the UK court on a £100,000 bail. 179 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:17,280 It's quite a hefty bail and he's now claiming that he's in ill health and he cannot be extradited 180 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:18,280 to South Africa. 181 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:20,920 So there's a court case about that as well. 182 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:27,320 But the case has again been put on the roll for three November, two weeks down or so and 183 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:29,840 we will have to see whether it actually proceeds. 184 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:34,480 But it's puzzling that an arrest that was made, as I've said, about a year and a half 185 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:38,440 ago, 15 months ago, that that case is not proceeding. 186 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:44,840 And then apart from these high profile cases, the NPA is just generally getting on with 187 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:46,160 the job it sounds like. 188 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:47,160 Absolutely. 189 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:52,720 If you look at the annual report for the last year, which is the year to March 2022, and 190 00:13:52,720 --> 00:14:00,160 dealing specifically with corruption, they brought 388 cases to court and they won 344 191 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:01,160 convictions. 192 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:06,040 That's a 90% conviction rate, which is quite good. 193 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:11,000 Interestingly enough, the number of government officials convicted of corruption increased 194 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:15,240 from 86 to 119, 38% increase. 195 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:19,920 But the conviction of people in the private sector for corruption increased by nearly 196 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:25,560 40% from 147 to more than 205. 197 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:31,680 Using all this to the value of 5.5 billion round were obtained by the NPA against many 198 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,160 of these accused. 199 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:38,520 Criminal conviction is one thing, getting the money back is a second objective. 200 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:40,480 And it's also, I mean, I think they're doing quite well. 201 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:46,000 And it's interesting to note that in June last year, just after the start of the financial 202 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:51,920 year, more than 800 posts at the NPA were filled. 203 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:57,720 Now that's a lot of people to a point in one go, and clearly the capacity will grow and 204 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:00,200 the ability to prosecute cases will grow. 205 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:07,240 So I think with these, the director promised, of which we have now seen eight of nine, well, 206 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:13,120 I think things are moving also on the criminal case side in the right direction. 207 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,800 And the special investigating unit, how's it going there? 208 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:17,800 Very good. 209 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:23,000 They've been on a roll now for about two years, most of the action against corruption 210 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:24,360 came from them. 211 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:28,680 I've written about this before and I've set up their role and their position. 212 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:32,880 In essence, the SIU can only reclaim money via civil action. 213 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:34,160 They cannot prosecute people. 214 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:38,640 They must bring a civil claim and in that way recover money. 215 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:44,080 And their work has been spread out quite a lot via a special tribunal which was created 216 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,200 by President Homo Horsan 2019. 217 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:51,680 Now the special tribunal are simply eight judges of the High Court, of the South African 218 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,440 High Court in the various provinces. 219 00:15:54,440 --> 00:16:01,320 And when the SIU wants to bring a case before them, they act as the special tribunal presiding 220 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:02,320 officer. 221 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:07,200 So the big benefit of the special tribunal is you don't have to go the laborious route 222 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:09,520 of going through the courts. 223 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:16,640 As you know, our court system is very clogged and courts are just bureaucratic, slow and 224 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:18,040 time consuming. 225 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:23,000 This special investigating unit with its special tribunal is capable of hitting much quicker 226 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:24,480 and much faster. 227 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:30,520 Just to bring things together, Zverey McKeezy, the previous Minister of Health, was fingered 228 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:36,720 in the SIU investigation in the digital vibes scandal, 159 million. 229 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,640 There was no criminal charges there because of civil claim. 230 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:46,000 Now Mr. McKeezy wants to object to that finding and he has brought the case to the High Court 231 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,760 but there's been no finding in the High Court yet. 232 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:50,200 But that's a side issue. 233 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:55,360 The fact remains, the SIU is very active, they're very successful in reclaiming money 234 00:16:55,360 --> 00:17:00,680 and although they can't put people in orange overalls, they are reclaiming money, public 235 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:03,480 money for the state. 236 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:12,200 And then leaving the state and the state employees aside for a moment, Stinoff, the big news. 237 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:17,480 Yes, I started writing about Stinoff simply because I think it is such a big story and 238 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:18,480 what's going on there. 239 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:24,200 And just as I finished it and as I send this note off, the news broke that the Reserve 240 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:30,400 Bank got in order to attach 1.4 billion round in assets, that's apparently all the assets 241 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:35,000 the Yoster family has for claims of more than 4 billion. 242 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:40,280 So the Reserve Bank is claiming much more than what is available but it's quite a substantial 243 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:41,280 amount. 244 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:45,080 And this was granted by the High Court in the Cape in September. 245 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:47,360 But that's on the civil side. 246 00:17:47,360 --> 00:17:51,320 It's quite interesting to look at what's happening on the criminal side. 247 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:59,360 In June 2020, about two and a bit years ago, the Hawks asked the auditing firm PWC to do 248 00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:02,800 a forensic report on the Stinoff case. 249 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:08,560 Apparently the report, according to the head of the Hawks, comprised 31 leverage files. 250 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:12,640 Now they were prosecuted that must work through that. 251 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:18,600 About a year later in July 2021, the Hawks reported to Parliament that they were in the 252 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:26,680 process of collecting 14 witness statements from people in foreign countries, individuals 253 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:30,400 living in Germany, France, Australia and the UK. 254 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:36,840 And the Hawks started what is called mutual legal assistance processes to source 30 foreign 255 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:40,240 bank accounts in foreign countries. 256 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:44,520 And this evidence from the witnesses and the bank accounts and so on will be used to do 257 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:46,720 a final forensic report. 258 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,840 The PWC one was a preliminary report. 259 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:55,560 In this July, three months ago, two, three months ago, the Minister of Justice reported 260 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:59,440 in Parliament that the first leg of the Stinoff matter has been finalised. 261 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:01,840 Now precisely what that means, I don't know. 262 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:06,440 Presumably it means that the forensic report is completed and that they can now proceed 263 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:08,720 to build a case on the basis of that. 264 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,600 He also said that the South Africa is seeking mutual legal assistance. 265 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:17,040 He didn't say with whom, but I presume it was the Germans, because that's where Stinoff 266 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:19,240 was incorporated. 267 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:24,360 Now it's worth remembering that the Stinoff officers in Germany were raided by the German 268 00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:28,000 authorities in December 2015, at the dates. 269 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:32,640 Two years later, December 2017, the Stinoff bomb exploded. 270 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:38,480 It took three and a half years from December 2017 when the bomb exploded for charges of 271 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:45,520 balance sheet fraud to be brought against four people involved with Stinoff. 272 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:51,480 Now the Germans in Germany, yes, the German authorities brought the charges in Germany. 273 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:58,480 Now the Germans have a system in where a court conducts a pre-trial hearing to give an independent 274 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:02,800 opinion on whether there's a good chance of getting a conviction or not. 275 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:07,600 Normally in Germany too, that decision is taken by the prosecutor, but the Germans have 276 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:14,040 got this extra layer of decision making if you want, where the independent court must 277 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:16,040 also give an opinion on that. 278 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:23,680 And the court ruled last year, now exactly a year ago, in October 2021, that the case 279 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:28,440 must proceed against two of the four individuals, and those are two individuals living in Germany. 280 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:34,640 The other two individuals are not identified, presumably Marcus Eustace is one, but that's 281 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:39,560 just speculation, and they will appear in court later. 282 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:46,040 Now at the time of writing this note, which is October 2022, note no further developments 283 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:47,720 have taken place in Germany. 284 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:53,760 So if you think about it, a raid in December 2015, the bomb explodes in 2017, charges 285 00:20:53,760 --> 00:21:01,200 brought in 2021, 2022 confirmation that four people must be charged, and then a year later 286 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:05,320 October 2022, and nothing has yet happened in Germany. 287 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:11,160 And I think that speaks to the fact that these cases are complicated, that legal processes 288 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:17,920 take time, and you must either conclude that Marcus Eustace is not guilty, or you must 289 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:19,600 conclude that the Germans are inefficient. 290 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:24,960 And I think those two propositions are both a bit suspect. 291 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:32,120 So legal processes take time, however impatient we may be for attribution. 292 00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:36,760 So with all of that said, so what? 293 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:43,160 I think the big so what is, it's clear from the amount of detail that's in the note, that 294 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:49,320 we've seen a step change in South Africa in both criminal and civil prosecution of state 295 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:53,040 people, state capture, mass crimes. 296 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:58,880 The public, the director of public prosecution promised nine cases, we got eight, and clearly 297 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,400 a lot more is brewing and bubbling under the surface. 298 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:07,680 Secondly, I think it's important to point out that people that were formerly untouchable, 299 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:12,360 a cabinet minister, secretary general of the running of the ruling party, a commissioner 300 00:22:12,360 --> 00:22:21,760 of police, senior generals in crime intelligence, high flying CEOs like Brian Mulafay, these 301 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:28,200 previously untouchable people are now in court as common accused. 302 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:32,800 And it's not something that I think one should just tread lightly over. 303 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,480 It is a very good thing that companies are being prosecuted as well, and that companies 304 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:42,320 are also paying the price, some by being charged, others by having to repay money, some 305 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:45,160 by being banned from public contracts. 306 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:49,200 It's a refreshing development because corruption always involves two parties, not just one 307 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:50,200 party. 308 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:56,120 Of course, this does not mean that all the cases will be settled satisfactorily, that 309 00:22:56,120 --> 00:22:57,760 people will be found guilty. 310 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:04,320 But if you can have a 70, 80% conviction rate, I think that would be very gratifying for 311 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,320 the South African public. 312 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:11,600 And then lastly, we mustn't forget, and Mr. Zuma is a prime example of that, that when 313 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:16,040 you start in defending yourself in legal cases, it drains you. 314 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:21,080 It takes money, it takes energy, it takes focus away, and the more you appear in court 315 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:25,240 and have to go there and so on, the more your status diminishes. 316 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:28,400 And as I've said, I think Mr. Zuma is a prime example. 317 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:33,600 So the fact that people that actually is being taken against people mean that they are beginning 318 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,280 to pay a price for what they did. 319 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:45,200 Isn't there also a kind of sea change in the way corruption is viewed? 320 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:51,560 That previously people may have thought, well, you just have to get a contract on the side 321 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:55,040 and nothing will happen, you can just do it. 322 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:59,040 But all of this now means that's not the way South Africa is going to work. 323 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,120 I think that's a fair comment. 324 00:24:02,120 --> 00:24:07,760 Africa will still work like that for a long time to come, it's a different value system 325 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:08,920 that must take hold. 326 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:17,440 But the fact is these prosecutions help to conceive and give birth and grow that alternative 327 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:18,440 value system. 328 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,040 Yes, I think that's a fair comment. 329 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,040 Yeah, how do you fight corruption? 330 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:24,040 Well, by fighting it. 331 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:29,920 There's no other way. 332 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,480 Thank you for listening to the So What podcast. 333 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:37,520 If you enjoy this content, please don't forget to leave a review and a rating and please 334 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:41,680 consider subscribing so you don't miss any future episodes. 335 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:43,440 Also tell your friends. 336 00:24:43,440 --> 00:25:00,200 Remember you can find a 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