1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:12,040 Welcome to the God's Goodness podcast, where our mission is to encourage as well as highlight 2 00:00:12,040 --> 00:00:14,520 God's Goodness and modern-day miracles. 3 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:17,040 We are your hosts, Josh and Shelley Hankins. 4 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:22,800 Today, we'd like to welcome our second guest, and he's a very special person to us. 5 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:24,640 And his name is John Kent. 6 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:29,980 He's a pastor, and he's got some other qualifications, I'm sure, that go along with that, with all 7 00:00:29,980 --> 00:00:32,080 the teachings you've learned. 8 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:37,560 So we're going to learn a little bit about how God has been good to him, and we're going 9 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:41,720 to ask him to lead us in the opening prayer. 10 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:49,120 Father in heaven, thank you so very much for the privilege of worshiping you, of following 11 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:50,120 you. 12 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:55,840 We're grateful for your call and invitation to follow you in all of our lives. 13 00:00:55,840 --> 00:01:02,280 And tonight, I pray that you would simply bless this conversation. 14 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:05,680 May you be honored and glorified in it. 15 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:08,360 In the name of Jesus, we pray, amen. 16 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:09,360 Amen. 17 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:10,360 Amen. 18 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:18,280 So one of the things that I have been led to do is, well, this podcast, but then the other 19 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,040 way was what direction to go with it. 20 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:26,680 And what I wanted to do is ask my guests to pray about what the Holy Spirit would lead 21 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:30,280 them to share, because, you know, they might know something. 22 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:34,120 Well, the Holy Spirit knows everything, but they might have a story that I don't know 23 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:38,960 about that they are destined to share at this point in time to help the most amount 24 00:01:38,960 --> 00:01:40,320 of people. 25 00:01:40,320 --> 00:01:45,160 And so we asked him to pray about it, and so he's going to share with us what he's been 26 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:46,160 led to. 27 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:48,400 Thank you very much, Josh and Shelley. 28 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:51,640 Thank you for inviting me to be on this podcast. 29 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:53,200 It's a tremendous honor. 30 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:54,520 Thanks for being with us. 31 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:55,520 Yeah. 32 00:01:55,520 --> 00:02:03,120 So as I was pondering what to share tonight, I couldn't help but reflect on a moment in 33 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:05,480 the life of David. 34 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:07,880 When, you know, God made a covenant with him. 35 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:13,360 He called this young man to take the place of King Saul. 36 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:19,640 You know, he just works through David's life, and there comes a point when David goes in 37 00:02:19,640 --> 00:02:24,120 before the Lord and he says this, Who am I? 38 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:30,600 Oh, Lord God, and what is my house that you have brought me thus far? 39 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:33,240 Can you say which verse that is? 40 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:39,240 And that is in Chronicles, 1 Chronicles 1716. 41 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:41,240 1 Chronicles 1716. 42 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:42,240 Thank you. 43 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:48,280 I read that years ago, and it just spoke very deeply to me then. 44 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:53,560 When I think about my own life and my own journey, I just can't help but say, Who am 45 00:02:53,560 --> 00:03:01,760 I that you have brought me this far, given where I came from and what my background was. 46 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:06,480 It's just to me, it's an astounding thing to sit here with you today and even know that 47 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:08,680 this is happening. 48 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:13,680 I was thinking of this verse earlier this year, after I got the idea of the podcast, 49 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:20,280 like he thought of me to carry this out and carry messages from all of his followers, 50 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:25,480 you know, so they can speak into the lives of other people that are going through the 51 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:27,720 same challenges. 52 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:31,480 God is growing us, you know, we're masterpieces in the making. 53 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:35,880 I didn't know what it was at the time, but I remembered the verse and it brought me to 54 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:41,160 tears because it's so powerful to think like he cared enough to think like, That's what 55 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:42,160 I want you to do. 56 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:43,160 Right. 57 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:52,160 That somehow he looks across the span of eternity and sees me, you, any of us around the table 58 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:58,680 that he sees us and chooses us is an amazing thing. 59 00:03:58,680 --> 00:03:59,680 For sure. 60 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:05,040 Yeah, I have a similar passage, which is who is man that you would be mindful of him. 61 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:10,680 And that's always resonated with me because I think oftentimes we like to reflect on our 62 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:18,440 inadequacies and our inability to produce good works without God. 63 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:25,000 And so he reminds us who we are to him through the sacrifice of his son, through his loving 64 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:29,680 compassion, through his continued support of us, even when we do some of the dumbest 65 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:30,680 things. 66 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:31,680 Yeah. 67 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,280 I'm very grateful to God for the journey that I'm on. 68 00:04:34,280 --> 00:04:35,640 It's a wild ride. 69 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:36,640 That's for sure. 70 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,000 My journey or just in general. 71 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:40,000 Hours together. 72 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:45,920 Well, yeah, before and together, you know, I'll just kind of lean into the story and 73 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,640 it always amazes me again, reflecting back who am I? 74 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:57,480 You know, I was just raised in a condition of deep poverty in Western Pennsylvania. 75 00:04:57,480 --> 00:04:59,120 We were not churchgoers. 76 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:04,800 We were basically unchurched people and my grandmother occasionally came and took us 77 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:11,320 to church now and then, but it wasn't anywhere near a part of our life. 78 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:17,600 My dad was a severe alcoholic and he smoked like a hundred cigarettes a day, three to 79 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:18,600 five packs a day. 80 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:19,600 He smoked. 81 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:20,600 It was just like crazy. 82 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:27,240 And I'll never forget, you know, in this out of this place of poverty and there was tremendous 83 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:32,200 amounts of abuse in my home, not so much toward us kids. 84 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:38,320 I was the oldest of six, but my, you know, my dad and mom just fought a lot, just tremendous 85 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:43,640 amounts of screaming and yelling and throwing things and blood and just, just messy. 86 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,320 It was just a messy, traumatic home to grow up in. 87 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:51,880 And, you know, I remember my dad, you know, he's smoking three to five packs a day. 88 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:56,320 He would sometimes stick his finger in my face and say, if I ever catch you smoking, 89 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:58,600 I'll beat you to within an inch of your life. 90 00:05:58,600 --> 00:05:59,600 Right. 91 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:03,520 This is with a cigarette hanging out of his mouth. 92 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:08,400 And I'll never forget, you know, Josh and Shelley, that the greatest influence over our 93 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:12,680 lives are not words so much as the example of those around us. 94 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:16,080 I'll never forget a moment came. 95 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:20,600 I was 14 years old and my mom had actually become a Christian several, a couple of years 96 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:21,600 earlier. 97 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:28,440 But I was 14 years old and I asked my dad to take me camping to drop me off at the end 98 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:29,440 of the road. 99 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:34,480 He was on his way to work on a Sunday afternoon and he dropped me off and that night was the 100 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:37,040 first time I smoked. 101 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:39,600 Was also the very last time I ever saw my dad. 102 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:40,600 Wow. 103 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:42,120 The next day he was killed. 104 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:43,120 He was only 35. 105 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:46,840 I was 14, oldest of six, but he was killed. 106 00:06:46,840 --> 00:06:52,480 I had a heart attack while driving a tractor trailer at age 35. 107 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:57,920 And if he wasn't dead from the heart attack, he was killed instantly from the load of steel 108 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:01,240 he was carrying when the truck wrecked. 109 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:06,840 My 14 year old brain did something that I think happens to many of us. 110 00:07:06,840 --> 00:07:11,960 You know, it takes life events and interprets them and applies them to our lives. 111 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,440 And for me, that looked like this. 112 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:23,200 My 14 year old brain simply said, God killed my dad to punish me. 113 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:28,640 I really couldn't have even enunciated that lie, but it was just there. 114 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:31,840 It was just there in the background. 115 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:37,600 And you know, I ended up about a year later, I ended up going off out of this place of 116 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:42,040 deep poverty to a Christian boarding school. 117 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:46,880 And I went there and it was like the best thing on earth to me. 118 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:52,400 It was an escape from the pain and trauma of the life that we lived. 119 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:57,200 I loved the school, but I wanted nothing to do with God because I believe deeply that 120 00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:59,800 he killed my dad to punish me. 121 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:05,120 And so I went through, you know, three years of this Christian high school, loved it, but 122 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:09,200 I wanted nothing to do with God after I was done with school. 123 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:14,840 I ended up hitchhiking the nation coast to coast, you know, just hitchhiking the nation, 124 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:18,360 trying to find meaning to life, you know, trying, searching for answers. 125 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:22,560 And I'll never forget three months later, I'm on the way back. 126 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:27,920 And I always knew I was coming back because I knew I needed to be there for my mom and 127 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:29,160 my brothers and sisters. 128 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:34,200 And on the way back, I just said, I'm going to give my mother's God a try. 129 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:41,920 When I landed back in Western PA, I got a job and I began working and supporting my 130 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:45,560 mom and brothers and sisters, helping them. 131 00:08:45,560 --> 00:08:48,320 But every night I'd go to my room and I'd open up the Bible. 132 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:55,880 And I said this, I said, if God is God, and this is his word, then he should be able to 133 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:57,000 speak to me. 134 00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:58,800 I didn't want anybody to study with me. 135 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:00,600 I just said, God is God. 136 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:02,120 This is his word. 137 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:03,320 He should be able to speak to me. 138 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:07,840 And so I have no overnight conversion experience. 139 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:11,560 There's just not a moment like that that I can recollect. 140 00:09:11,560 --> 00:09:16,400 All our members one day after several months, I just woke up and knew I wanted to follow 141 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:17,400 Jesus. 142 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:25,200 You know, I knew that Jesus was his life, his ministry, everything about Jesus attracted 143 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:26,200 me. 144 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:27,200 And so I made that decision. 145 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:32,280 You know, I yielded my heart to Jesus and I began following him. 146 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:38,160 So at this time, did you still believe that God was punishing you for that cigarette? 147 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:39,480 In truth, yes. 148 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:45,600 So how hard was it to lean in to the scripture, to lean in to God, to trust your mother's 149 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:51,960 God, feeling that he had punished you in such a way that literally crippled you and traumatized 150 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,400 you emotionally and spiritually? 151 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:56,400 Yeah. 152 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:58,480 Great question, Josh. 153 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:04,280 You know, I think there's a disjuncture in all of our minds or in many of our minds. 154 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,800 You know, we can say God loves me, right? 155 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:12,840 We can say that intellectually, but not really believe it at the heart level. 156 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:14,760 And I think that's the issue. 157 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:16,960 I knew as I read, I wanted this God. 158 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:22,440 I knew this had to be Jesus was somebody that I wanted to be like and I wanted to follow 159 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,040 and I believed he had salvation for me. 160 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,880 But this lie, it just operated in the background. 161 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:31,600 And I was unfortunately mentored into a church. 162 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:38,760 And I think a lot of people have this background too, that was pretty works oriented, you know, 163 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,200 quite works oriented. 164 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:43,200 And so how did this look? 165 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:44,840 How do I describe this? 166 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:51,040 It just felt like I need to prove myself worthy of God's love, right? 167 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:52,040 That's the issue. 168 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:57,040 I had to prove to God that I was worthy to be loved. 169 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:02,520 So when I was growing up, I felt very conditionally loved by my father. 170 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:06,240 Did you ever feel conditionally loved by your father as if, you know, he didn't give you 171 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:11,920 the praise you needed every minute, but only when you performed at the level of his expectation? 172 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:17,120 I actually rarely, I don't know if I have any memories, maybe one of my father ever 173 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:18,120 affirming me. 174 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:19,120 Oh, OK. 175 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:21,360 That just didn't happen in our place. 176 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:25,520 We're more likely to be cursed at than affirmed. 177 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:27,000 So absolute conditional love. 178 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:28,000 Absolutely conditional love. 179 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:32,400 Yeah, I just, it was all conditional love. 180 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:39,680 And so in my journey, said I want to follow Jesus and yet this background lie operating 181 00:11:39,680 --> 00:11:41,600 that God had killed my dad to punish me. 182 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:45,600 And again, I said, I don't know that I could have enunciated it at the time. 183 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,640 It wasn't like something that I consciously knew. 184 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,520 It was just operating in the background. 185 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:56,520 And so that led me into this life of ministry workaholism. 186 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:58,920 You know, I became part of a ministry. 187 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:04,680 I landed in New York City where I met Belinda and we spent eight years there, you know, 188 00:12:04,680 --> 00:12:06,880 in service to God. 189 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:11,280 But it was also quite behaviorally oriented. 190 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:15,440 The words of grace were there, you know, were saved by grace, but the action, the pressure 191 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:20,520 to live or behave at a certain level was there all the time. 192 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:28,480 And so I threw myself into ministry, you know, to prove to God that I was worth being loved. 193 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:35,040 So eventually we spent eight years in New York City and then went to Papua New Guinea. 194 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,960 We were called as missionaries to Papua New Guinea. 195 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:40,800 I thought it was Papa New Guinea. 196 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:41,800 Yeah. 197 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:42,800 Yeah, Papua. 198 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:43,800 P-A-P-U-A. 199 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:48,320 Voice to text puts a papa. 200 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:55,120 Yeah, Papua New Guinea, you know, and it was just this incredible journey in God. 201 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:56,120 In the jungle. 202 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:57,120 Yeah, in the jungle. 203 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:04,360 I want to tell you, I mean, here's the astounding truth that even in our brokenness, God will 204 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:06,320 still use us, right? 205 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:09,320 He used us in New York City. 206 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:10,320 And then... 207 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:11,920 And how did he do that? 208 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:16,800 Oh, just in our ministry, you know, in reaching people and serving people and encouraging people 209 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:18,440 and speaking in churches. 210 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:23,240 And, you know, we had a street ministry to reach out to New Yorkers. 211 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:24,600 And, you know, there was... 212 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:26,080 There's a lot of stories there, Shelley. 213 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:27,640 I can't have been easy. 214 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:29,600 I've been to New York. 215 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:31,280 There's a lot of stories there too. 216 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:35,520 But, you know, a day came when we knew that we needed to leave New York. 217 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:39,320 And in truth be told, I actually lost my experience with God. 218 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:44,480 I just woke up one day and realized I didn't even know the God I was serving anymore. 219 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:51,080 This ministry was just demanding and in the process of it, I lost my experience with Jesus. 220 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:55,480 And that's when we realized, you know, man, something's got to change and I'm not going 221 00:13:55,480 --> 00:14:00,120 to go down that rabbit trail, but there's an amazing story of God calling us to New 222 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:01,120 Guinea, right? 223 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:06,880 Out of a place of brokenness, out of a pain of feeling lost and hopeless and yet still 224 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,400 longing to honor God. 225 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,680 And so we landed in Papua New Guinea, you know? 226 00:14:13,680 --> 00:14:18,680 And you know, we're living, we were called to work with this tribal group deep in the 227 00:14:18,680 --> 00:14:27,160 jungle there, you know, 270 miles from the nearest town, 180 miles by log canoe, like, 228 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:32,200 you know, 270 miles from town first 90 and a mud road through the jungle, and then 180 229 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:39,320 miles in a log canoe to get to our tribal group and just remoteness and isolation and 230 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:41,720 immersion in this culture. 231 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:43,160 And no one speaks English with you? 232 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:44,600 No one spoke English. 233 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:49,600 And there were literally people there who remembered the taste of human flesh, who were 234 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:54,080 catabals, you know, in their day a few years before we got there. 235 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:59,480 But you know, just an incredible journey and God used us there. 236 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:05,920 And God began to alter, you know, there was success, there were moments of failure and 237 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:09,680 we felt the failure and prayed and sought God. 238 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:17,400 And he began to alter my view of himself and my place and my experience in relationship 239 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:18,680 with him. 240 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:24,640 But after eight years, some events transpired and we had to come home. 241 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:30,280 And there was no moral failure, nothing like that, nothing that we necessarily did wrong 242 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:32,200 except this. 243 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:40,440 As my ministry grew in New Guinea, the demands to be gone from New Guinea also grew. 244 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:47,960 I began to train missionaries and our organization began to ask me to leave the project to come 245 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:52,440 to back to the U.S. to train other missionaries. 246 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:58,080 And in that process, because of my performance driven nature, because I was trying to be 247 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:03,480 approved, I always had this deep insecurity about my acceptance with God, acceptance with 248 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:04,480 others. 249 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:09,680 And so every time the leader of our organization would ask me to come back to the U.S., I would 250 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:11,440 say yes. 251 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:14,440 And the first year it was a couple of weeks and then it would end up being three weeks 252 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:18,240 and four weeks and five and I'd be gone six weeks at a time. 253 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:23,200 Belinda is without me in the jungle, deep in the jungle with kids. 254 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,480 You know, we went there with a five, three and 18 month old and then had a daughter while 255 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:27,640 we were there. 256 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:32,000 How was her Papua New Guinea speaking skills compared to yours? 257 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:33,360 She could communicate fine. 258 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:35,000 Yeah, she could communicate. 259 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:41,000 I had a, because I spent a lot more time in the jungle with the people, I had probably 260 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,400 a greater level of fluency, but she could communicate fine. 261 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:48,280 You know, you're just asking, you know, to see what her mindset would have been closer 262 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:53,480 to be like, knowing that she was alone with kids and the speaker that was more attuned 263 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:55,440 to the language was not there. 264 00:16:55,440 --> 00:17:01,720 Yeah, and it inevitably created resentment, you know, the amount of time that I ended 265 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:11,160 up being away because I couldn't say no, because to say no would risk disapproval, would risk, 266 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:15,560 you know, not getting opportunities maybe in the future. 267 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:19,040 You know, again, it was, I had to prove my worth. 268 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:24,160 And that led to us eventually needing to leave Papua New Guinea just for the family's 269 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:26,640 sake, because I couldn't say no. 270 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:34,200 And when we came home, during the years in New Guinea, I really felt as if God had created 271 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:40,680 me for the purpose of being there, that I was born to be there. 272 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:45,680 God gave me just skills that I had a unique ability to connect with people, even across 273 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,480 these cultures, you know, language. 274 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:51,400 And he just felt like I was crafted for that purpose. 275 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:56,320 And so when we ended up coming home, I actually went into a deep depression. 276 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:57,880 I really struggled. 277 00:17:57,880 --> 00:17:59,520 And I'm not a depressive person. 278 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:05,160 I think you guys know that I'm not prone to depression. 279 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:07,640 But I really struggled when we came home. 280 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:10,480 And I came home to a significant position. 281 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:15,720 I came home to be the director of training for our mission agency. 282 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:24,560 And that led to a series of decisions that were really impactful because of my deep struggles. 283 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:29,080 I threw myself every year into missionary training. 284 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:36,400 Every summer we had a significant 12-week missionary training program that I developed. 285 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:38,120 And God, it was blessed. 286 00:18:38,120 --> 00:18:39,720 Again, God uses. 287 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:41,360 It's amazing. 288 00:18:41,360 --> 00:18:49,440 And then our mistakes, but in that space, every single summer I would neglect my family 289 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:57,080 because I was desperately trying to gain worth from the accolades I received from being one 290 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:01,560 of the best missionary trainers around. 291 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:07,400 And then all the subsequent speaking appointments that came with that, colleges, universities, 292 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:11,160 high schools, you know, speaking about missions. 293 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:15,680 And so every summer, often at the end of many summers, we'd be in some level of marital 294 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:19,880 counseling year after year after year. 295 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,560 And the time came, I was just lost. 296 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:24,560 I was tired. 297 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:26,240 I was weary. 298 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:32,120 I was ready to leave God, to leave our marriage, to leave ministry. 299 00:19:32,120 --> 00:19:36,680 I was just at a point of, I just can't do this anymore. 300 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:42,040 It felt like I was trying to please a God who was never quite pleased enough. 301 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:48,480 I just, I could never quite reach the level that I felt like God was pleased. 302 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:55,040 I had mentioned something before with another group of people, but it's funny how we try 303 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,080 to impress God with the gifts he gives us. 304 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:02,000 And then when it falls short of impressing him because, you know, he's given us those 305 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:07,720 gifts, we often feel a certain kind of way depressed or sadness as if we don't meet his 306 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:09,040 approval. 307 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:10,680 And you are not alone in that. 308 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,760 Yes, I know that to be true. 309 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:19,280 And that's why I'm so excited about this last part of the story. 310 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:26,600 At the end of one particular summer, I went to see our counselor and she said this to 311 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:30,240 me, she was a Christian counselor. 312 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:36,800 And she said to me, John, she said, I realize as a Christian using the secular practices 313 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:43,280 of psychology that about the very best I can do is take miserable people and make them 314 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,080 unhappy. 315 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:55,440 And so, and she said, you know, I've been being mentored by a man in Ashland, Ohio, and 316 00:20:55,440 --> 00:21:00,280 he has agreed to see you, would you be willing to go? 317 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:06,720 And I was at this desperate space of saying, I just, I said, yes. 318 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:15,040 So we set up a date and I believe it was about 20 years ago this month, I think. 319 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:20,720 20 years ago this month, I'll never forget getting up on a Monday morning and driving 320 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:28,720 four hours from Southwestern Michigan where we lived at the time to Ashland, Ohio, and 321 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:35,600 to the campus of Ashland Theological Seminary to meet a man by the name of Dr. Terry Wardle. 322 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:43,360 And I went into his office, tiny little office, and my counselor was there with Dr. Wardle 323 00:21:43,360 --> 00:21:48,240 and we just chatted for a few moments. 324 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:54,360 And in those few moments, we connected over the realization that he was also from Western 325 00:21:54,360 --> 00:21:56,200 Pennsylvania. 326 00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:01,200 So a few minutes of chitter chatter and then he said, John, let's pray. 327 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:08,800 And so we closed our eyes and Dr. Wardle invited the Holy Spirit to come into the room. 328 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:16,240 And then there was a long period of silence, almost uncomfortable silence. 329 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:20,920 And then he said to me, John, here's what I want you to do. 330 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:26,520 He said, I'd like you to just imagine a safe place. 331 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:31,360 I want you to imagine a place where you could feel safe. 332 00:22:31,360 --> 00:22:37,600 He said, it might be a place from your childhood or it might be a place in the woods or mountains 333 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:42,920 or it might be imaginary, but just ask Jesus to give you that picture. 334 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:44,000 And I struggled a little bit. 335 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:45,000 I'll be honest. 336 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:49,360 I said, what's this weirdness going on? 337 00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:53,840 But eventually I calmed down and I was able to, all of a sudden the picture came to me 338 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:59,580 of my childhood on my grandfather's farm down along the West branch of the Susquehanna 339 00:22:59,580 --> 00:23:02,720 River at Hemlocks and Rodedendron. 340 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:05,960 And it was a place I always felt so safe. 341 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,120 And I just could see myself there. 342 00:23:08,120 --> 00:23:13,840 And then he said, I described that to him and he said, John, could you invite Jesus to 343 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,160 join you there? 344 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:22,640 And the truth is, Shelley and Josh, I couldn't because I was confident he wouldn't want to 345 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:26,520 be with me at the deepest level. 346 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:30,080 I knew that Jesus wouldn't want to be with me. 347 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,200 Like that original wound was still with you. 348 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:38,800 Still with me all these years later and having been used by God in some profound ways. 349 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:47,080 And I struggled and so with Dr. Wardle's gentle nurturing, I was finally able to ask Jesus 350 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,920 to join me, to make his presence known. 351 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,080 And after a moment I could see him in my mind. 352 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:53,800 I could see Jesus join me. 353 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:59,360 I was sitting by a little fire there in the midst of the Hemlock and Rodedendron and he 354 00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:01,800 came and he joined me there. 355 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:05,040 So I described that I could see and sense Jesus. 356 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:06,720 And then Dr. Wardle said this. 357 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:16,480 He said, John, if you could ask Jesus anything, what would you ask him? 358 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:21,640 And I said immediately, I'd want to know if I was in the center of his will. 359 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:27,960 And Dr. Wardle leaned forward and said, what? 360 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:32,440 That's all you would want to know? 361 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:38,280 Is he sense that really the core of that question I'm wanting to know, do I measure up? 362 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:39,280 Right? 363 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:40,440 Have I measured up, Lord? 364 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,480 Am I doing the right thing at the right time in the right way? 365 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:45,520 Am I in the center of your will? 366 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:50,200 That question was rooted in my very wounding. 367 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:54,840 In the lie I'd carried all these years and he just said, try again. 368 00:24:54,840 --> 00:25:01,240 You can ask me any question, just not that one. 369 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:08,120 And all of a sudden, from deep down at the pit of my stomach, the question arose. 370 00:25:08,120 --> 00:25:12,160 And at the beginning, you guys, it may not feel that much different, but it's deeply 371 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:13,680 different to me. 372 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:21,800 And the question simply was, Jesus, what do you think about me? 373 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:23,280 What do you think about me? 374 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:24,960 I said that to Dr. Wardle. 375 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,160 Dr. Wardle said, ask him. 376 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:32,800 It's probably one of the most difficult things I've ever done in my life. 377 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:42,680 There in the presence of Jesus, in my mind's imagination, to turn to Jesus and say, Lord, 378 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,200 what do you think about me? 379 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:53,320 As I kind of stuttered those words out before they even got out, the words of God, Jesus' 380 00:25:53,320 --> 00:26:00,280 voice spoke so deeply, so loudly to me that it was almost overwhelming. 381 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:11,000 And that voice, the voice of Jesus said this in that moment, John, you are my treasure. 382 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,200 I love you. 383 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,840 You are unbelievable to me. 384 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:23,920 And I broke down weeping and weeping and weeping and sobbing, and Dr. Wardle said, what did 385 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,320 he say? 386 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:35,400 And I said, he said, I'm his treasure, and he loves me, and I'm unbelievable to him. 387 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,400 And there was a moment of pause. 388 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:43,520 And then Dr. Wardle said this, John, what does a treasure do? 389 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:44,720 Nothing. 390 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:46,720 It does nothing. 391 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:52,320 It has value simply because somebody puts value on it. 392 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:59,240 And that moment, Josh and Shelley, broke 22 years of ministry workaholism when for the 393 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:09,520 first time in my Christian life, I knew that I was loved by God simply because I took in 394 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:11,560 air and space. 395 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:12,560 Right? 396 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,240 That I was loved by God. 397 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:19,640 No matter what, that moment broke 22 years of ministry workaholism. 398 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,760 You went from conditional love to immediate unconditional love. 399 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:24,760 Absolutely. 400 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:26,000 How freeing did that feel? 401 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:27,240 Oh, man. 402 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:34,040 It was like a 10-ton weight came off of my chest in that moment. 403 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:38,560 And how did that improve every other aspect from that moment forward? 404 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,120 Good question. 405 00:27:41,120 --> 00:27:50,400 That's a long story, but I'll just tell you this, that on that day, my wife, Belinda, 406 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,360 almost committed suicide. 407 00:27:53,360 --> 00:28:01,600 She was laying on the bathroom floor in our home ready to take pills because once again, 408 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:03,880 all the attention was on me. 409 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,080 I was getting help, and she was being left behind. 410 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:11,240 That's probably a story for another moment. 411 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:15,400 I think at that other moment, we should get that story from Belinda. 412 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,200 From Belinda, yeah. 413 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:23,760 But my life was altered, and when I came home, Belinda knew it. 414 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:28,760 I shared with her what had happened, and then God began to put pieces into place that would 415 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:34,280 eventually lead both she and I to go spend another weekend just a few weeks later with 416 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:35,760 Dr. Warhol. 417 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:43,040 And in those moments, God did the most transformational healing experience for both of us. 418 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:49,520 Another deeper level of personal healing for me, a brand new healing for Belinda, and a 419 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:54,520 healing and renewal of our marriage that was just astounding. 420 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:56,640 So you felt whole, and she felt seen. 421 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:58,120 That's incredible. 422 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:00,560 Yeah, good. 423 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:02,600 I really enjoy you. 424 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:04,280 I love you. 425 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:09,680 I appreciate you, and I'm so grateful that we met all those years ago. 426 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,280 And I just hope to see you again on this show. 427 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,080 I hope to hear from Belinda. 428 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:19,200 I know that you have a lot of stories, not just because you're venerable, but because 429 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:20,960 you just have a lot of stories. 430 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:22,400 And you've experienced a lot with God. 431 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,480 You've encountered a lot with God, and you're a great spokesman. 432 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:27,560 I enjoy you. 433 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,000 Yeah, thank you very much. 434 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:30,880 We enjoy you too. 435 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:32,200 You and Shelley both. 436 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,760 We've been a blessing, and back to the verse, who am I? 437 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:36,760 Who are we? 438 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:37,760 Yeah. 439 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:42,960 That God has seen us and has chosen us. 440 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:43,960 Chosen us. 441 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:48,120 And God descends to use us by His grace. 442 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:49,120 Yeah. 443 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,560 I would totally read your book when you write these stories down. 444 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:54,560 I'll illustrate it for you. 445 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,520 I'll buy one of the books in the presale. 446 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,600 That's a task on the stove. 447 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:03,200 So I do have a joke for you. 448 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:04,200 Uh-oh. 449 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,680 Did you know that when a canoe flips over, you can wear it as a hat because it's cap 450 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:09,680 size? 451 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,680 That's pretty good. 452 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:18,080 It reminded me when we were talking about the canoes going, Bopu Nogini in the rivers. 453 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,720 I wanted to say it then, but it wasn't the time. 454 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:27,720 Yeah, I will be honored to share anything I can in the future to encourage and bless 455 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:28,720 your group. 456 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:30,120 Oh my goodness. 457 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:34,120 Remember when Terri Ann had so much to share about how the podcast had helped her at one 458 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:35,120 moment? 459 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:42,400 I can't wait to see who you've helped with the affirmation that we're not alone, right? 460 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,840 You're not the only treasure that we're all a treasure. 461 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:50,720 And none of us can do anything to have that value or worth assigned to us except by the 462 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,280 person who sees us as the treasure. 463 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:56,920 And I hope that that enriches somebody and blesses them and that they come off feeling 464 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:01,520 a little bit more unconditionally loved than they did before. 465 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:06,640 I know with the way we are as people, it's very easy to come off as feeling unloved. 466 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:11,840 I've told Shelley before and sharing that, you know, God's commandments, the two most 467 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,560 important ones are love God with everything, above everything. 468 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:17,320 I'm summarizing. 469 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,320 And the second is love your neighbor as you love yourself. 470 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:25,200 And I think a lot of people struggle with loving their neighbor because they don't love 471 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:26,200 themselves. 472 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:34,520 And I think this will really help some people unlock the gears that have been frozen, you 473 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:39,240 know, WD-40 them, so to speak, so they can get the thought process back to going into 474 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,280 what God thinks of them. 475 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:43,280 And they might have a better self-esteem. 476 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:48,080 They might have better just God esteem that there is a Creator that made them for a purpose 477 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:53,360 of relationship with him and that he can't wait to spend eternity with them. 478 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:57,800 That just makes me so happy to think about that because that is a very freeing moment. 479 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:01,840 I know what it's like to have that moment where you just, it's just, it's wonderful. 480 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:02,840 Yeah. 481 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:03,840 Amen. 482 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:04,840 Amen. 483 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,640 Josh and Shelley, thank you so much for inviting me. 484 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:09,640 Oh, yeah, anytime. 485 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:11,520 It was good. 486 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:13,840 And thank you all for listening. 487 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:19,200 And I'll just wrap up this episode reminding everyone that maybe you don't even know. 488 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:24,680 We have a Give, Send, Go campaign and if you look that up, givesango.com. 489 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:31,120 If you want to help us with the financial items that it takes to get this podcast going. 490 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:35,560 So if you look that up and then go to God's goodness podcast, you'll find it and then 491 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:41,200 be able to donate and we would greatly appreciate the gift and put it to good use. 492 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:45,800 And if this episode or any of the episodes have been a blessing to you, we would greatly 493 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:50,560 appreciate that you share them and be in encouragement to others. 494 00:32:50,560 --> 00:33:18,960 Thanks so much and we'll talk to you next time.