Yeah, we are used to experience the cities during
the day, so we're used to think that cities are
just working during the daytime, but a lot of
things are happening at nighttime. That's right,
and we're going to explore those things in today's
episode. Hi and welcome back to the City's Reimagined
podcast. I'm your voice of choice, Johannes Riegler,
and this is Reimagining the City at Night. Tonight
we are heading out into the city of the dark.
That's right, the episode is all about what happens
when the sun goes down. So we are kicking things
off with a little techno to get you all in the
mood. That's certainly not my favorite genre
of music. But anyway, I'm joined today by Simone
D 'Antonio. Simone is an expert on sustainable
urban development, and he's supporting local
and regional authorities with innovative projects.
Right now, he's working with 10 cities across
Europe in an urban network called Cities After
Dark. And what they're doing, they're exploring
all aspects of what the nighttime economy is
and what it needs. So I suggest you make sure
that you are caffeinated enough, have a coffee
and an energy drink, or whatever keeps you going
through the night. But before you lose yourself
on the dance floor too much, there's a heads
up I need to give you. The nighttime economy
is much more than just clubs and bars. There's
more lenses to that. That includes mobility,
care work, hospitality, logistics, emergency
services, security and access to services around
the clock. And we will touch up on that today.
If you like the content. subscribe to the show
or smash the like button or send me an email
at johannes at Anthropocene .city. And now we
are off to the night to Simone D 'Antonio, who's
going to tell you all about the nighttime economy.
Simone, what sparked your interest in cities
in the first place? In fact, I grew up in the
metropolitan area of Naples, Napoli, in Herculaneum,
specifically. So it's a city with thousands of
years of history. So Naples, that is as urban
as it can get. Yeah, exactly. Still from the
name, you know, Napoli is taken from the Greek
Neapolis, New City. the urban topics are in some
ways everywhere there. And I've always loved
cities because they are places full of challenges
but also places full of solutions to the challenges
of our time. The metropolitan area of Naples
is more or less 10 kilometers apart from the
city center. I saw how much the lack of public
transport, the lack of public spaces, the social
inequalities, the lack of spaces to do sports
really affected the everyday life of people.
And I really think that these elements were very
important for shaping my interest in in cities.
Do you have a remembrance when that was in your
life? At what age did you think, oh, that is
something I'm more interested in, I want to work
on that topic? In fact, I was living there until
2006 when I moved to Brussels. So I experienced
the magic of the 90s there in Napoli and the
beginning of the century living in a city that
was very... different than the city that we know
now. It's over -touristified, it's full of visitors.
At the time there was not that much tourism,
it was basically national tourism, not international,
so it was really rare to find some tourists from
abroad. And it was very authentic. I love to
say that Napoli is the northest city of the global
south. And it's still true, in my opinion, for
many aspects of the everyday life there. And
when I travel abroad, I always see great similarities
with cities like Medellin or... Cairo or Delhi
or Mumbai. So I really feel that these cities
have much in common with Napoli, with the place
where I grew up. In what way? Tell me a bit about
it. In the way people live in the public space,
in the way people interact among them, in the
way people sell things or survive in some ways.
So the traffic is in some ways very similar to
how the city is used on an everyday basis. So
it's the role of the marketplaces, the role of
the street vendors, or the sound. The sound that
is always very loud. Not only the sound of the
cars but also sound of people shouting or calling
to each other. These kind of things are really
connecting cities of the Global South in some
ways. And I think that Napoli should be proud
of it as a city. Naples is a city that should
really invest on this legacy. It's one of the
most ancient cities in the world which is still
surviving and which is still there. since its
creation without having been destroyed or changed
also in the urban planning structure. Nice. We
might come back to the tourism part or the tourism
issue, which you mentioned a bit later. But tell
me a bit more. So you moved from Napoli to Brussels.
What did you do there? Did you study there? Where
did the urban background come in? In fact, I
studied political sciences, international relations
in Napoli. I studied there at the Oriental University,
which is the University of Oriental Studies.
I moved to Brussels for an internship in 2006
while I was still studying. And then I got offered
a job there in Brussels at the Association of
Cities and Municipalities. That was a way for
the Italian Association of Municipalities to
bring our mayors and elected officials, civic
officials to Brussels and to connect them to
the European institutions. And before going to
Brussels, I didn't... even though that the national
associations of cities could have interest in
being there, in making some forms of institutional
lobbying activities, when I went to Brussels
I realized that these kind of offices, these
kind of foundations were really useful for creating
connections, not only with European institutions,
but with cities. So there were, in that period,
in those three, four years, three, four rotating
presidencies of the European Council, which were
really influential in shaping the debate on cities,
in shaping how cities in the future should look
like. And it was really important, in my opinion,
also for understanding that working with cities
is not just working on the ground with infrastructure
projects, but it's also working on dimensions
such as the active participation of the residents
or the collaboration with different levels of
governance or the multi -level governance were
important for attracting resources, but also
for creating the conditions. for innovative projects.
Yeah. And we met, I think the first time we met,
that must have been in 2013, 2012, for a European
project on social innovation in cities, which
we ran back then when I was working at the Austrian
Institute of Technology. Were you in Brussels
still? Or did you move? I was in Rome. You were
in Rome. So after that you moved to Rome and
continued working with Angie. But how did you
decide, because you work a lot with cities around
the globe and cities throughout, or local public
administration, I should say, throughout Europe
and the globe. What excites me of this is basically
the impact that these projects are creating in
cities. I had the chance to to work with cities
from different positions within the association
of cities, which is like a ministry in Italy.
So it's a point of reference for local governments.
I saw the challenges that local representatives,
civic officials had in improving the way they
were working or in creating innovative projects
while working for URBACT, European Urban Initiative,
and even before with the Urban Innovative Actions,
I saw how much these European programs can be
fundamental for bringing something innovative
to the everyday life of cities. So basically
I spent 10 years at the Association of Cities,
even a bit more than 10 years, as contact person
of the National Urban Point for Italy. And what
I did in that position was to create this bridge
between the everyday life of cities in Italy
and these programs which are important also for
not only for giving resources but also for giving
methodologies for some ways of supporting cities
in a lateral thinking about their future. And
after this experience, I focused on the support
to some of these networks as expert. So I saw
from the other side, from just national level,
how much the action of experts and consultants
can be important also for seeing things from
the outside and also for improving the perception
of... urban innovation cities, because what I
see is that many cities are doing innovative
things, but they just don't realize that they're
doing something innovative because it's part
of the everyday life or it's one of the projects
that they have, but it's not the most important
one. So sometimes I, I received some, some, some
contacts of cities which are doing things or
they approached me for getting some support on
specific projects. And then I say, guys, okay,
you're doing great. But there's another project
that you mentioned me just very briefly that
maybe it's more innovative than the thing that
you are working on. Maybe just to connect the
dots. Yeah. And it's already there. That's good.
Before going down the rabbit hole of, let's say,
innovative technicalities of innovation, I have
one question for you. I know that you're working
on a project on the nighttime. which I find super
fascinating and super interesting. So you want
to be honest, how much is that an excuse to hang
out in nice bars and go to clubs? A lot. I was
hoping you would say that. I'm very, very sincere
about it. It's a great opportunity to connect
with great bars, with great clubs, but also with
great people. behind them yeah but tell tell
us about uh about this project or uh the projects
called cities after dark or in general about
the nighttime economy where does it come from
how does it you you mentioned before we started
the recording nighttime economy is from uh 6
p .m to 6 a .m what falls under that uh give
us a bit of a taste yeah we are used to uh experience
the cities during the day, so we're used to think
that cities are just working during the daytime,
but a lot of things are happening at night time.
It's not just bars and clubs, it's not just about
entertainment or hospitality, but it's something
in my opinion broader than this. At night, we
have different categories of people who are working.
We have nurses, doctors, bakers, policemen, people
working in the transport sector. So for them,
the city is really working on 24 hours. And the
objective of Cities After Dark is to explore
the potential of the cities. different dimensions
of the nighttime economy. So it's not just about
what are the sectors that are usually connected
to our idea of nighttime as something enjoyable,
as a very creative moment, as a moment for personal
and cultural growth, but also as a productive
place. We are doing that with 10 cities with
different levels of experience on nighttime economy.
We have some cities like Paris and Tallinn which
already had some strategies on nighttime economy
and some interesting forms of governance or coordination
among different departments or different offices
within the local authority. Also with strong
political presence on these topics. Some other
cities are very new to the topic. We have Braga
as a lead partner, then Genoa, Malaga, Piraeus,
Varna and many others, which are working for
the first time on the nighttime economy. They
are using the opportunity given by this Orbach
network, which is the first. network have fully
done on this topic to carry out testing actions
on this and integrate strategies that are going
to be night policies for them. And it's in many
cases also the first opportunity that they have
to deal with the variety of stakeholders working
at night. What are the actions they are working
on? Some cities worked on the localization of
nighttime activities in order to decongestionate
the city centers, which are usually the most
populated night spots, and bring some activities
out of the city centers, which is something also
in line with... the 15 -minute city concept,
so bringing not only access to public spaces
or to green areas to transport, but also access
to cultural and economic opportunities after
dark for all. It's part of the debate, in my
opinion. Genoa, for instance, is working on that.
They tested the extension of a public transport
line or bus line to the suburbs. And they organized
some cultural events, something like guided tours
of an historical palace or DJ sets in unusual
places. So it was a way for testing the reaction
of the residents, but also for testing the reaction
of people who were going to this neighborhood
for the first time for these events. And it was
really good. Talin worked a lot on the involvement
of a specific category of people, young people
from 14 to 18 years old, who are in some ways
not yet night users. And there is a risk that
they are not going to be night users as we were
at the time because behaviors are changing. Right
now, fighting against the sofa, fighting against
everything we can have from home, from delivery,
food delivery or Netflix or other things. We
have everything at home. So it's completely changing
also the way people live at night and experience
cultural life at night. It's a very different
experience, right? with the young ones there's
a different competition you have before you might
uh let's say nighttime the nighttime economy
or gastronomy and bars might have competed with
each other but now they compete apparently with
with you know as you said netflix sofa uh liverando
who brings brings the food it's comfortable at
home it's it's a different kind of A different
kind of spending money, which is not necessarily...
Yeah, you have a different experience with that.
You don't experience the city per se as such.
Yeah, the pandemic had an impact on it, for sure.
There is a generation of people who were supposed
to start to go out in 2020, 2021, and they basically
stopped to go out during those years. They are
not going out right now or they are going out
less than before. Rising prices is an element,
but also some cultural changes that we see in
cities. For instance, in many countries, we see
that for health reasons, people are drinking
less. So this is a challenge also for bar owners,
restaurant owners to offer some alternatives.
to go out and enjoy the night out without drinking
was the core element of going out until a couple
of years ago. So everything is changing, and
we are focusing on how cities are supporting
this change, working with business owners, with
cultural actors, but also with providers of innovative
services. One of the things that is attracting
a lot the attention on Cities After Dark is the
fact that some of our cities are launching nighttime
nurseries which are really good for families
where both the parents are working at night in
bars, clubs or hospitals or as drivers of buses
or metro. Some cities are also testing night
nurseries just for supporting families, young
families who want to go out for a night. So these
nurseries are open from 7 p .m. to midnight.
You can leave kids with other kids, and so it's
better than just having the babysitter at home.
And young families can go to the theater or they
can go to watch a movie or go to the restaurant.
project was launched in Genoa. It's a very interesting
initiative that in my opinion is also attracting
the attention of other cities across the globe
like Sydney or others who are willing to support
nighttime economy, also providing new services
to the people. Yeah, I really like that because
when you start thinking about all these different,
let's say, urban -related aspects of Of the night.
There are so many different aspects to it. You
just brought in the night nursery, which I...
certainly never heard of or never thought about
probably because i don't have kids but i uh there
is i've never heard of that but there's also
so much other other things there's the so you
know the the sociology or the sociological part
about it that uh like the air in the city makes
you free uh and that that comes very much with
with cultural events and and going out at night
uh i believe where you just explore the city
in a different way. And anonymity of the city
can have a huge impact or brings very different
opportunities, possibilities, compared to a small
town or a village. But then again, you have so
many other interesting parts. You have the mobilization
of... under activated or underused spaces which
might come in you might have yeah the economic
You might have alternative economic perspectives
on that or alternative ways of doing culture
or promoting culture. I found it very fascinating.
But then on the other hand, you also have these
whole dilemmas, which we already touched on in
the beginning, that some cities are becoming
very popular for that reason, for their nighttime
economy and going out. Do you have some thoughts
on that, on this link between nighttime economy
and overtourism? Yes, I think that this element
was one of the things that drove Praga at the
beginning to present this application for a network
of nighttime economy, also including cities like
Genoa or Zadar, which were included in previous
networks, like Tourist Friendly Cities, which
was a network on sustainable impact of tourism
in Europe or including India. urban agenda for
the EU partnership on sustainable tourism. But
I need to say that at the end, many cities didn't
go through this aspect working on nighttime economy
because they realized that before creating a
city that is vibrant at night for the visitors,
you need to... make the city vibrant for the
residents. And this is an element that we saw
in some of the cities of the network, like Budva
or Zadar, where the old towns are usually full
of tourists during the summer. And their question
is, where do the locals go out when tourists
are here? And that's the reason why many cities
are investing in diversification of night activities,
diversification in space and quality of these
activities. But many cities are continuing to
focus on elements which are the contrast to noise
pollution or the misuse of public spaces which
are still present in many cities across Europe.
With Cities After Dark we are trying to give
some possible solutions. which are not just technological
solutions like CCTV or mechanism for reducing
noise, but also mechanism for making public spaces
better for all. There are many experiences across
Europe of cities which are organizing a series
of night events in public spaces or in public
parks, which is a very important thing, especially
in times of climate emergency as the times we
are living in. as a way also for finding some
shelter from hot during the summer period. If
you organize these spaces in a way that is safer
and more accessible for all, these spaces are
going to be more welcoming and people are going
to enjoy them in a different way. And then there
are some mechanisms also for supporting the cultural
vibrancy of these spaces in some cities like
Tallinn are. working on licensing rules. They
are making licensing rules more flexible to spaces
with a cultural agenda where they host not only
music events but also clubbing programs or things
which are part of the cultural offer of the city.
They offer incentives to these places. some economic
support but also the opportunity of selling alcohol
longer than other spaces because alcohol obviously
is a way for supporting also the revenues of
these spaces. Paris has launched a similar mechanism
of support for soundproofing of clubs and bars
so it's basically better for the city to have
them there. with some profane systems instead
of fining them and bringing them to shut down.
We have one. In Vienna, we have the Arena, which
is, if you ask me, the best concert venue in
the world. It's a former slaughterhouse which
got squatted in the 70s and is now a concert
venue since then. Or it's multiple concert venues,
actually. And it was... based in the industrial
area, in the industrial pocket of Vienna. And
as the city grows, the industrial city or parts
around the slaughterhouse turned into housing.
And now they built two huge housing blocks of,
I don't know, 25 stories, very close to the arena.
And they have open -air concerts as well. So
every time there's a concert, of course, with
the old sound, they also have a new sound system
now, but with the old sound system, they could
hear the music from the open air. And people
started complaining. And that is, of course,
a very delicate issue because the arena is there
for 50 years. And when you know that you move
close to such a very famous concert hall, you
might have to think about that there might be
some noise coming out. of the concert venue.
And now the city jumped in and financed them,
or at least partly financed them, a new sound
system for their open airs, which is more, let's
say, directed to the audience and goes less wild
around it. But yeah, it's one of these conflicts
I find very interesting, fascinating of how something
which is there for a very long time, a cultural
institution, if you will, gets into the way of
urban development. Yeah, one of the principles
that is emerging a lot in the UK especially,
but also in Germany, is the principle of the
agent of change. It means that real estate developers
will be the ones to pay. or the price of soundproofing
in case a club or a concert hall or a festival
is already there before developing new buildings.
It's a very controversial principle, it's not
easy to implement it, but in the UK it helped
a lot to save also some historical venues such
as the Ministry of Sound, which is one of the
most famous. clubs of London. The implementation
of this principle was really important also for
saving some parks and spaces like Crystal Palace
where concerts and festivals were organized.
The Club Commission of Berlin is acting a lot
as mediator between the needs of the existing
clubs and real estate developers. So I think
that this action of mediation between the needs
of different categories of people living in a
city. Also adopting some technical solutions,
like the one that you highlighted, but also other
solutions which are implemented. For instance,
in Malm, we were there for the opening festival
of the URBAT for Action Planning Networks, and
we organized a night tour with the partners of
Cities After Dark. And we saw that in some parts
of the city, they started to organize concerts,
having a person from the municipality who is
a sort of mediator between the needs of concert
organizers and the city hall. This guy is just
a person living in the neighborhood. But he said,
OK, I want to help you because I think it's important
that you organize cultural events and concerts.
So he helped them. to locate the sound systems
in a way that was not disturbing the residents
but was creating fun for people without negative
effects as other big concerts were doing very
far from the places where people were living
in. So it's very interesting also how these solutions
are. are designed. But I think that this combination
between practical sense and also, in my opinion,
it's important to highlight the added value that
nighttime economy creates not only for economic
development, which is really hard to assess,
but also for the cultural development of the
cities. And one of the things that we saw during
one of our study visits in Berlin was the realization
of the Tag der Clubkultur, which is the day of
club culture where people can go to the clubs
also during the morning with families, with elderly
persons, and see what are doing these clubs,
what is inside the clubs. how many people work
there. And some of our cities, like Prague, decided
to replicate this model, organizing a night festival,
which was aimed not only to turn the main square
into a dance floor for a night, but a way for
showcasing the diversity of the night scene of
the city. Bar owners, but also artists in some
festivals and theater and night workers. So all
this Things really show to the people how much
it's important to keep the city vibrant at night.
And now it's important also to find an agreement
on what can be disturbing for the daily experience
of some residents. Yeah, but it's very interesting
what you just said, these measures or these...
attempt to to open up the nighttime economy to
or these cultural places to a broader audience
in a way that to because if you're not a club
goer or not going to to concerts or so these
places might seem a bit a bit scary at times
you know you have you might have people people
wandering in and out but you you don't you don't
know what this is about if you're not going into
the club yourself right yeah and that's the reason
why we focused a lot on the the right to the
city at night for all to this concept, which
is at the core of the new urban agenda of the
UN habitat. And we toured them on a 24 -hour
basis. So one of the things that drove me to
the nighttime economy was the fact that I was
involved in the previous Urban Innovative Actions
project of Turin tonight. which was a project
basically on urban security, so how to make a
true neighborhood across the Dora River safer
at night. So a neighborhood with a strong presence
of migrants, which was perceived as unsafe at
night, and a neighborhood full of students with
a university campus. One of the innovative things
of the project was the launch of a call for projects,
of micro -projects, so 50 ,000 euros per action,
carried out by at least... two NGOs together.
And this project, which funded a lot of theater
activities in public spaces or calligraphy courses
with the Chinese community, or some actions to
rediscover words, cuisine from different migrant
communities working there, was very interesting
for the people. But in fact, me or other persons,
we didn't notice the innovative element. When
I was in Canada, I was in Montreal, there was
a guy from 24 Hour Nation, which is maybe the
most interesting media on nighttime economy.
And Randall told me, look, what is really innovative
of your project is the fact that you managed
to bring elderly persons, families, and kids
out at night. It's not something that is usually
happening in America or in the rest of the world.
You should really work on it. So that's the reason
why I decided a lot to insist on this element
also with Seize After Dark, because if we really
make people aware of all the opportunities that
they have for making the cities better at night
for participating in in the life of the city
at night also all the type of contrasts of processes
against noise in some ways can be solved if we
know each other if we talk to each other and
and if we leave the the city uh at night yeah
very nice beautiful um and you already mentioned
this global perspective with Montreal and so
on. And I know, I saw on your LinkedIn you were
recently in India, right? Yes, yes, recently.
I wanted to ask you about that a little bit because
for a while during my work, I went to China a
couple of times. And when I was in Beijing, I
liked very much staying at a street which is
translated Ghost Street. And my hotel was there.
And that was basically almost two kilometer or
1 .5 kilometer long street with one restaurant,
one... after the other and many of them have
are open for 24 hours and i find it so fascinating
how this is i mean it's a different culture of
uh there of the nighttime economy they have the
night markets and they rather go out for food
and then spend the night in a restaurant But
it was really, I really liked that there was
so much going on in the street. And if you pass
on a Friday, you saw some things you would otherwise
not see on a Friday night in China. It was very
fascinating. But it developed from, I read into
it, and it developed from a trading hub, which
was located in this neighborhood towards this
nighttime economy or to this restaurant, collection
of restaurants. because the workers of this trading
hub had to eat somewhere. And that's how it developed
over the years. But tell us a little bit about
your experience in India, how that related to
the nighttime economy. How did you perceive it?
How did it link to what is happening in Europe?
Were you fascinated by what you saw? In fact,
everything was really fascinating. It was one
of my dreams to go there. Was it a work trip
or private? It was a work trip. I was invited
there to deliver a presentation at the After
Dark Placemaking Weekend India, which was organized
by Placemaking India. It was the first time that
this network of architects and urban designers
and planners decided to focus on nighttime economy.
So I brought there the experience of cities after
dark, of the things that we are doing with our
cities in Europe. But I took the opportunity
also to meet many cultural organizers and representatives
of the nighttime economy industries who are active
between Bangalore, Mumbai, and Delhi. And it
was really great for the reasons that you said
before. The fact that these cities have a very
vibrant nightlife, even if this nightlife is
not governed. The presence of food markets and
street markets in Mangalore, I saw this flower
market which opened at 4 o 'clock in the morning
and it was really one of the most interesting
things in the city to see this market alive at
4 a .m. with a lot of vendors, with the whole
local community basically going to the market
between 4 a .m. and 9 a .m. Many cities in the
Global South are experiencing the same challenges.
One of the most vibrant cities at night is Cairo
in Egypt. It's really a city that doesn't sleep.
Many cities in China as well had the same perception
in Delhi. I was staying in the area of the station,
and you can really see that the Pajangarh area,
the main bazaar area, is a place where people
are still there during the night. They still
sell food or stroll around. So there's a very
different way of living in the cities, of living
in the public space. And I saw also... something
more similar to our concept of nighttime economy
in Mumbai, which was really interesting also
in terms of zoning policies and also the vibrance
of some cultural and entertainment spots. So
I saw the diversity of this series, of this urban
context, and I need to say that this global side
of the... of the action that we are doing with
Cities After Dark is very important. I was in
Australia at the end of October for two weeks.
I was invited there by the government of the
New South Wales, the state of Sydney, which is
the first state in the world to have a minister
in charge of nighttime economy during the sports.
So they have a huge office of 50 persons guided
by the nighttime commissioner. which is in charge
of defining policies for making in -presence
more vibrant in different areas of the state.
So not only in Sydney and its metropolitan area,
but also in Byron Bay or in other parts of the
state. And Australia is working a lot on that.
It's working a lot on the impact, on calculating
the impact of a nighttime economy using different
sets of data. It's something that we are trying
also to transfer to our cities. which are involved
in Cities After Dark. So what I can see is that
this network is gaining global attention because
we are focusing on something that is important
for different types of cities, for cities in
America, in Canada, or in Australia, but also
in the global south. So I really think that one
of the next frontiers is to support cities from
India or Southeast Asia or Africa to create night
policies. based on what they already have, based
on the vibrancy of the cities and from the organization
of public services like waste collection or other
things happening at night to the valorization
of bars and clubs, which are really driving the
cultural life of the cities. Yeah, very nice.
Simone, you proved me that it's not only a personal
interest. in going hanging out in bars and cafes
but there's much more behind that there is much
more yeah and i could i could talk to you for
for more hours and i really enjoy when we meet
that we have to or i'm enjoying it that we meet
regularly or from time to time to to talk in
person as well but that leads us already to the
last question another that would be what would
you advise to anybody who wants to change anything
in their cities uh what would be three things
you would advise to them I would advise people
to participate in public life, to be part of
the life of their neighborhoods and contribute
to change. I would advise people to go out. It's
something that should not be so much special
as it is if we consider the war. to the sofa.
We're fighting right now. It's a big competition.
Sofa is winning so many times. Yeah, I'm fighting
it every other day. But it's important. And then
discover green areas not only during the day
but also in other times of the day because the
next frontier is to use parks. in a different
way than in the past. There are so many parts
of the city that are closed. I think the schoolyards
for instance, they are great public spaces. Some
cities like Paris are starting to use them. We
have public parks which are usually closed after
dark, so we need to use these spaces also for
evening or night activities if we really want
to take the best of our cities. Some cities are
also using the beach at night. Dubai is a keeping
beach at night because it's too hot to go there
to the beach during the day. And so use this
kind of things that are in front of us so we
see them every day. If you live on the seaside,
you see the beach, you see the seaside, but often
people don't use it. If you are in Rome, sometimes
you see archaeological ruins or you see parks,
but you don't use them at night. So using them
at night in a very innovative way can be important
for fostering a change that is not after dark,
but it's during the 24 hours. Very nice, Simona.
And pro tip for those people living in Vienna,
if you go to Schönbrunn Park and Schönbrunn Castle
and let yourself be locked into the park at night,
it's wonderful because there's no people and
it's really nice. And the security guards might
be annoyed with you a little bit, but they're
okay. They will let you go. All right, Simone,
thank you so much for the talk. I really much
enjoyed it. And yeah, today you fly to Spain
still. So I hope you have a good trip. Thank
you. Thank you, Ernest. See you soon. See you.
Bye. That's all for today. I hope the next time
you go out at night, the next time you win the
fight against the sofa, you see the city at night
with a different set of eyes. If you like the
show, make sure to leave a comment, to rate the
show and subscribe to the channel. And to play
you out today, we're going to go back to the
usual post -punk tune. Because if you ask me,
that's much better than the Berlin style techno.
Okay, good night and I hope to catch you soon.