1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:19,620 If you want to have any success in environmental programming or to achieve sustainability, 2 00:00:19,620 --> 00:00:23,500 you have to engage people and you have to address their basic needs. 3 00:00:23,500 --> 00:00:30,500 You have to engage people first, environment at the same time. 4 00:00:30,500 --> 00:00:33,680 Hi, welcome back to the Cities Reimagine podcast. 5 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:41,920 I'm your voice of choice Johannes Riegler and today's episode brings us to Africa. 6 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:44,640 I'm having Paul Curie on the show. 7 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:50,440 He's the director of the Urban Systems Unit at EECLAIR Africa and I had a chance to swing 8 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:55,680 by ICLEI Africa's offices in Cape Town a couple of weeks ago to sit down with Paul 9 00:00:55,680 --> 00:01:00,760 and have this conversation. 10 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:04,240 If you like what you're hearing on Cities Reimagine, I would be very happy if you would 11 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:10,580 subscribe and rate the show on your podcasting platform, follow the show on Instagram or 12 00:01:10,580 --> 00:01:26,920 even better reach out to me on LinkedIn or via email and that is johannes at Anthropocene.city. 13 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:34,240 Africa as a continent is huge and it's also a continent of astonishing diversity and rapid 14 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:42,320 urbanization and the population is projected to double by 2050 and as such Africa is at 15 00:01:42,320 --> 00:01:46,120 the forefront of the global urbanization trend. 16 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:54,040 And while this remarkable growth presents huge opportunities, it also presents the cities 17 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:59,880 and urban areas with huge challenges. 18 00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:05,360 So from the sprawling mega cities like Lagos and Cairo to the picturesque coastal gem of 19 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:13,760 Cape Town, African cities embody a kaleidoscope of cultures, traditions and urban landscapes. 20 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:22,120 Yet they grapple with issues ranging from inequality, inadequate infrastructure, housing 21 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,840 and environmental degradation. 22 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:30,120 But I'm very happy that I had a chance to have this conversation with Paul because in 23 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:38,640 my opinion issues related to African urbanism are highly underrepresented in the discourse 24 00:02:38,640 --> 00:02:41,680 on cities, at least in Europe. 25 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:47,640 I could not imagine anybody better to have a conversation on urbanization across Africa 26 00:02:47,640 --> 00:02:52,080 than Paul as he's working for the African branch of Eclay. 27 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:57,520 Eclay is the leading global network of cities and local governments committed to sustainable 28 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:02,960 urban development with regional offices across the world. 29 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:08,640 And as I said already, Paul is working for the African one. 30 00:03:08,640 --> 00:03:17,600 The story how Paul and I met or how we know each other actually starts on the bus in the 31 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:22,800 Ethiopian capital of Addis Ababa in 2019. 32 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:28,320 I attended the African climate risk conference in Addis Ababa together with Jonas Bülund 33 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:34,000 who you might know from another episode from another previous episode. 34 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:40,960 And yeah, on a bus ride during the conference, I was sitting next to Mary Thompson-Hall who 35 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:47,880 is working for START, which is a US-based initiative running programs to strengthen 36 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:53,440 capacities for global environmental change science in Africa and Asia. 37 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:55,860 So yeah, we had a good conversation. 38 00:03:55,860 --> 00:04:00,960 After the bus ride, we continued talking and exchanging and began thinking about actually 39 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:08,240 a workshop series to see how African urban realities match with European ambitions on 40 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:09,400 urban transition. 41 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:15,720 So that is in my capacity of working with the driving urban transition partnership. 42 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:21,780 And at some point, the colleagues from START suggested to bring in Paul and Eclay Africa 43 00:04:21,780 --> 00:04:24,560 to organize these workshops together. 44 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:31,720 So via Tennessee, where Mary is based, I got connected to Paul in Cape Town. 45 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:39,280 And over the next months, we organized three workshops on different topics related to making 46 00:04:39,280 --> 00:04:45,240 cities more livable and sustainable places in which I learned a lot about urbanism and 47 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,720 urban transformations in cities across Africa. 48 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:55,880 And in fact, I only met Paul in person once after the workshops as we both attended UN 49 00:04:55,880 --> 00:05:05,140 Habitats World Urban Forum in Katowice, Poland in 2022. 50 00:05:05,140 --> 00:05:09,520 So for me, it was not only a great personal pleasure to meet Paul again in Cape Town, 51 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:14,160 but also I think this episode is a very rich one. 52 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:20,900 There's a lot to unpack and a lot to learn about urbanism in African cities. 53 00:05:20,900 --> 00:05:23,040 So that's it for the monologue this week. 54 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:28,800 Here we go with the interview with a talk ad with Paul Curie from Eclay Africa. 55 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:33,600 Paul, hi, welcome to Cities Reimagined. 56 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,840 Thanks for having me here in Cape Town, Eclay Africa's office. 57 00:05:36,840 --> 00:05:37,840 It's amazing to be here. 58 00:05:37,840 --> 00:05:39,320 How are you doing? 59 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:41,240 Yeah, fabulous. 60 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:47,920 Another day in 2023, I cannot believe how fast the time is flying this year, but really 61 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:49,920 exciting work underway. 62 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:54,000 So nice to see it progress and nice to see the seeds that you've planted in the work 63 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:59,000 kind of turn into outcomes and benefits for the cities we're working with. 64 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:00,000 Nice. 65 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:04,000 It's great to have you on the show because I found we worked together on a series on 66 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:08,760 webinars a couple of years ago almost now. 67 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:10,720 Two years? 68 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:11,720 Yeah. 69 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:18,200 Which I enjoyed a lot because it was about matching or discussing European priorities 70 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:22,200 on sustainable city making with African urban realities. 71 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:26,560 I learned so much from these conversations and it was really good to have them. 72 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:27,560 Do you have some? 73 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:31,360 Well, you know, for me, I think that's part of this really interesting work of trying 74 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:38,920 to see how do these very lofty and big theoretical concepts land in different contexts. 75 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:45,840 And if I can say anything about our work as African urbanists, we have this great ability 76 00:06:45,840 --> 00:06:48,520 to contextualize and say, well, what is appropriate? 77 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:55,480 How do we take these ideas like circular economy, a 15-minute city, ask questions about what 78 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:56,760 is an inclusive city? 79 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:02,320 All of these big lines that we throw around so cavalierly, what does it actually mean 80 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,400 for a practitioner, for a resident on the ground? 81 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:07,200 How will they walk out of their house? 82 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:11,340 And this is a thievery from a city of Cape Town colleague. 83 00:07:11,340 --> 00:07:15,400 How will they walk out of their home and say, ah, I am living in a resilient city. 84 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:17,680 I am living in an inclusive city. 85 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:23,400 And so the minute you take these theoretical concepts and actually ground them, I think 86 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:24,580 they become more rich. 87 00:07:24,580 --> 00:07:30,520 I think there are many exciting provocations that come out of that. 88 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:34,480 Circular economy doesn't need to be this 12 principled thing. 89 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:41,040 It can simply be about diverting organic waste from landfill to make compost out of it and 90 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:42,120 use that for farming. 91 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:45,640 And then the way you do that, you've made sure that waste isn't landing in drainage 92 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:47,360 canals and causing flooding. 93 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:50,680 So that's directly from Accra. 94 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:52,400 That's what circular economy means there. 95 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:56,960 We need to end flooding by getting our waste out of our infrastructures. 96 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:02,880 And Paul, you grew, we are now right in the topic already. 97 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:09,680 You grew up in between New York City and Johannesburg, both very distinct and different cities. 98 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:12,000 How did this experience shape you? 99 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:17,760 And I saw on your LinkedIn profile that you said that you have an obsession with cities 100 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:19,320 or with urban areas. 101 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:25,760 How did these two places and this upbringing or this experience shape you to what you're 102 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:26,760 today? 103 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:28,360 What are you focusing on your work today? 104 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:34,360 Yeah, well, look, I mean, the communications team for New York City and around the world 105 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:40,240 should be very proud of their positioning as New York as the city, you know, with so 106 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:47,360 many reference points, thanks to pop culture and also I was very lucky as a 14 year old 107 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:52,000 to suddenly have this opportunity to move there. 108 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,220 My parents got work in the city. 109 00:08:55,220 --> 00:09:02,640 And what it meant for me was that I got freedom at age 14 in terms of being able to take the 110 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:09,880 subway around, to walk around with a perception of safety, to access all of these amazing 111 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:18,640 public amenities, the parks, to walk along the the river boardwalks, the whole set of 112 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:24,920 free concerts and discounted opportunities for students. 113 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:29,760 The fact that there was a subsidized metro card for students to be able to use public 114 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:32,120 transport to get around. 115 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:38,720 It meant that I had freedom when my contemporaries in South Africa were waiting for maybe 16 116 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:43,200 or 18 before they would get a car to be able to drive around without depending so much 117 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:44,840 on parents. 118 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:51,400 You know, and so reflecting on it now, it is a core way of how I understand cities and 119 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:58,680 this tension between the availability of public networked, robust infrastructure that's available 120 00:09:58,680 --> 00:10:06,080 to serve your needs and improve access to the city compared to many South African cities 121 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:11,240 in which access to the city is restricted for many. 122 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:17,120 And certainly not a space in which young people or parents of young people want their kids 123 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:25,360 to be moving through because of perceptions of unsafety and realities of unsafety. 124 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:30,120 So that was what made New York fabulous for me. 125 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:35,880 And the fascination with cities is definitely based on this observation that cities are 126 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:37,480 multilayered. 127 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:40,880 There are different types of infrastructure systems. 128 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:42,240 There are different cultures. 129 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:43,560 There's different languages. 130 00:10:43,560 --> 00:10:52,320 They really are the concentrators of so many different systems, people, experiences, stories. 131 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:58,240 And so all of those come into a nice mishmash is where I like to think and daydream and 132 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:00,640 navigate. 133 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:06,920 I find it so interesting that you describe it as that your obsession with cities, let's 134 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:12,080 put it like this, came with this experience of being in New York City or just having this 135 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:16,280 different experience of what urban means. 136 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:19,160 We had that on the I discussed it with Jonas Bülund. 137 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:23,320 I think we organized the Webinar series as well. 138 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:25,920 And another colleague in a conversation. 139 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:32,560 It came down to he put it as anthology of where you see different, where you have different 140 00:11:32,560 --> 00:11:34,960 moments in your personal life. 141 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:37,720 He pronounced it or mentioned a shock moment. 142 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:45,160 You come somewhere, you have a different perspective or a different experience of that case, urbanism, 143 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:51,760 you take it home and it all of a sudden, it becomes very interesting and it shapes your 144 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:57,480 perspective of what urbanism or what urban areas could be. 145 00:11:57,480 --> 00:11:59,840 Certainly, you know, and not just New York. 146 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:07,000 I mean, of course, being in other cities, anytime you arrive, you instantly get a sense 147 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:12,000 or you interpret the character of that city based on how you interact with the space. 148 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:17,120 And for some, I think that can be very abrasive in your initial welcome into a city. 149 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:23,200 But every city has its own character, its own sounds, its own set of personalities. 150 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:31,360 And so I think for me, what New York did was change a set of laden assumptions about what 151 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:39,060 a city should or could be from, for example, the Johannesburg that I'd grown up in. 152 00:12:39,060 --> 00:12:42,100 And there was a lot of soul searching on visits back to Johannesburg of, you know, well, why 153 00:12:42,100 --> 00:12:43,500 are people living here? 154 00:12:43,500 --> 00:12:46,440 What is it about this place that's attracting people? 155 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:52,320 And trying to think critically about is this a place that I want to be? 156 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:56,920 Which revealed a whole set of really interesting insights about, for example, it being the 157 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:04,520 largest artificial forest and a lot of investment in greenery, incredibly social set of people, 158 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:08,880 you know, and certainly very cosmopolitan in terms of a whole set of people from around 159 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:13,280 the continent arriving here to seek opportunity. 160 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:16,680 You know, and so in that way, you know, a parallel between Johannesburg as a financial 161 00:13:16,680 --> 00:13:22,680 capital and New York as a financial capital are quite telling. 162 00:13:22,680 --> 00:13:27,240 But yeah, so New York sort of laid a challenge, a whole set of assumptions about what a city 163 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:33,080 could be and watching it change while I was there was also a wonderful experience. 164 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:36,440 You now live in Cape Town in South Africa. 165 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:38,600 Why didn't you choose to stay in the US? 166 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:42,680 Why did you come back to South Africa and why Cape Town? 167 00:13:42,680 --> 00:13:47,640 Well, much to the disbelief of many family friends, we weren't emigrating to the US. 168 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:51,560 We were going on an adventure with full intention to return. 169 00:13:51,560 --> 00:13:57,000 And you know, for me, what was both wonderful and difficult about being in the US was that 170 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:03,800 there are a whole set of politics going on, which we didn't feel belonged to us. 171 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:10,840 And so you could see the emergence of the Iraq War and a whole set of movements. 172 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:15,960 You know, and certainly while I was in university, the increasing incidences of gun violence, 173 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:21,080 you know, and you are participating in the society, yet it's not necessarily your politics. 174 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:25,160 Whereas in South Africa, I could see from an outside perspective of how much potential 175 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:31,320 this country has and this yearning to participate in its politics and to help shape the future 176 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:33,320 of this country. 177 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:40,780 You know, and as a South African, there's a whole set of fraught identities and activities 178 00:14:40,780 --> 00:14:46,200 that you have to take on as a resident or a citizen, which ask deep questions about 179 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:54,640 structural changes, about equity, about your contribution to a society, which can be very 180 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:59,480 deflating at the one time, but also very empowering. 181 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:03,200 So I think that's this curious character, which I think many South Africans in a way 182 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:12,320 are addicted to when choosing to live here, but also simply in the everyday being. 183 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:17,320 Can you briefly explain what ICLEI is and the work you're doing? 184 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:22,780 ICLEI is a membership organization of local governments committed to sustainability. 185 00:15:22,780 --> 00:15:29,960 And our role is to represent the voices of subnational governments in regional global 186 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:30,960 arenas. 187 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:35,500 So when it comes to climate negotiations, how are we making sure that subnational voices 188 00:15:35,500 --> 00:15:37,480 are part of that conversation? 189 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:42,320 When it comes to a global movement around improving food security, how are we making 190 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:47,200 sure that local government have a say in that? 191 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:52,400 Because often the understanding is that national governments are the negotiating power and 192 00:15:52,400 --> 00:16:00,280 the policy setting entity, but local governments and subnational governments are then required 193 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:04,440 to do the implementation, often without resources. 194 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:09,740 And so really trying to engage national governments as partners and say, we need to take on multi-level 195 00:16:09,740 --> 00:16:15,200 governance approaches so that local governments aren't just expected to implement policies, 196 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:21,400 but our partners in designing those policies and are resourced to implement these policies 197 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:22,400 and programs. 198 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:23,400 Right. 199 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:31,200 And you're in ICLEI Africa, I have to say, you're the director of urban systems, right? 200 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:36,400 Which sounds like you're dealing with a lot of complexity in your work. 201 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:37,400 Is that it? 202 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:42,400 And what gives you the drive and the ambition to challenge, let's say, the status quo of 203 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:47,400 urbanism within all its complexity and messiness and so on? 204 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:54,720 So as noted from this New York experience, the enjoyment of how all of these systems 205 00:16:54,720 --> 00:17:01,080 layer and interact, you know, gives me personal interest, but it really is the crux of how 206 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:08,400 you think about and try to intervene in African urbanization, which is that we have multiple 207 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:17,200 systems in our cities operating in concert or against each other. 208 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:24,200 And there is certainly a set of assumptions about which systems are the correct form of 209 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:25,200 the city. 210 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:30,160 So to be simple about it, there's the planned city, which the politicians and technical 211 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:37,080 officials in local government think of, and that is designed, drawn, shown in all the 212 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:41,040 spatial frameworks and integrated development plans or equivalent. 213 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:45,760 And they say one thing about how the city operates or is expected to operate. 214 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:51,720 And then you have a whole set of other emergent activities, which are the real city, which 215 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:55,720 is designed and made by people. 216 00:17:55,720 --> 00:18:02,200 And the way that cities emerge is absolutely through a whole set of different interests. 217 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:07,040 And so when you look at these two cities, they may say very different things in Dar es 218 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:12,920 Alam while we were running a training engagement with urban planners, one of them said, well, 219 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:19,860 in the plans, so well, in Dar es Alam, we know we've got 300,000 motorbike taxis. 220 00:18:19,860 --> 00:18:21,440 We see them around there. 221 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:25,760 They're hooting, they're carrying people, they're parked on the sidewalks. 222 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:27,680 But if you look at the plans, there's no parking for them. 223 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:31,320 And so the plans suggest that these motorbike taxis don't exist. 224 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:36,440 And so which one are you going to believe and which one are you going to count on to 225 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:42,760 improve governance or function of the city, which is correct? 226 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:48,020 And I think people get caught in the sort of one way or the other kind of approach. 227 00:18:48,020 --> 00:18:51,600 But what does it look like to hybridize our understanding of cities and to try work out 228 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,560 not to turn one system into the other? 229 00:18:54,560 --> 00:19:00,080 There's this whole narrative around formalizing informal systems, which frankly, when a practitioner 230 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:01,840 comes and says, OK, well, how do we do that? 231 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:02,840 What are we doing? 232 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:11,240 Are we talking about taxation, planning, regulation, investment, registration? 233 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:17,760 You know, informal doesn't really have a clear policy response. 234 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:21,260 And so we don't need to turn one system into another. 235 00:19:21,260 --> 00:19:25,520 We need to think about how we bring multiple urban systems into better alignment so that 236 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:30,960 they're supporting the final outcome, which is good quality of life for the current residents 237 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:31,960 and future generations. 238 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:36,880 You know, if you break sustainability down to those sort of premises, it becomes quite 239 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:47,800 a simple outcome with many, many intervening policies, practices, infrastructures, cultures 240 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:49,360 to then navigate. 241 00:19:49,360 --> 00:19:52,720 So from an academic perspective, we can draw the system map. 242 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:57,360 And it's fascinating, and it really excites us to see how everything is interconnected 243 00:19:57,360 --> 00:20:00,200 from the practitioner perspective. 244 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:01,200 What do we do with that? 245 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:02,280 So what? 246 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:03,640 How do you intervene? 247 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:11,880 How do you use resources efficiently to arrive at some form of change and improvement? 248 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:18,160 So that's what the role of this unit is, is to look at the system and go, these are the 249 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:19,600 interconnections we see. 250 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:20,600 What do we do with this? 251 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,880 How do we make improvements for the people in the cities? 252 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:24,880 Nice. 253 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:30,240 I would like to come back to the role of informality in African urbanism or in African urban areas 254 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:34,680 in a bit later, because I find that very, very interesting, especially because a lot 255 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:39,040 of it has a different, a very different angle compared to Europe and other parts of the 256 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:43,240 world, I think, and I would be very interested to hear that from you. 257 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:47,240 But before we go into that, so the African continent is huge, right? 258 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,280 It's spanning across climates. 259 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:54,400 It has so many different cultures, landscapes, populations, histories. 260 00:20:54,400 --> 00:21:03,080 If you look at your work across Africa, and especially in this very, very different settings, 261 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:08,840 in this very different urban setting, spanning from Cairo to Lagos to many smaller cities, 262 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:17,800 capital cities, regional towns, and connected to the fact that African cities are very, 263 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:22,800 more and more vulnerable to climate change, to the effects of climate change, and probably 264 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:28,360 also the biodiversity crisis, and with the extreme weather events, the number of extreme 265 00:21:28,360 --> 00:21:30,480 weather events rising. 266 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:36,560 Where do you see the biggest three challenges across African cities which require reimagining 267 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:38,360 cities? 268 00:21:38,360 --> 00:21:40,560 Yeah. 269 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:54,680 So due to the histories of colonization, independence, post-independence realities, and the fact that 270 00:21:54,680 --> 00:22:01,200 the continent is still often more integrated with global trade systems and global power 271 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:06,000 systems than it is with neighboring countries, it's a very fragmented country. 272 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:14,960 And so one of the things that many of us working on or trying to do is to build solidarity 273 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:21,160 within countries and between countries and between ourselves as African agents, and to 274 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:31,880 really try and shift the narrative of where knowledge comes from, who are the appropriate 275 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:39,160 drivers of development, so to speak, or change or improvement, how to invite partnership 276 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:46,960 and learning around the world, but also how to build more agency of Africans to drive 277 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,600 the change that they want to see. 278 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:56,640 And so that's a sort of a knowledge context to lay a foundation of why doing this work 279 00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:02,640 can be so difficult is because of the fragmentation, the fact that it used to be cheaper to fly 280 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,160 to Europe than it would be to another country in this continent. 281 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:14,640 So the three challenges I would frame quickly and then going into more detail would be just 282 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:20,160 the vast scale of infrastructure investment needed. 283 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:27,040 There's a line and a quote or a stat that keeps going around of 60% or now it's 80% 284 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:31,320 of the built environment in African cities has yet to be laid. 285 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:35,560 Thinking about our population growth, thinking about all of these mega trends which are affecting 286 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:36,560 us. 287 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:44,080 So the basic one is just, we need a hell of a lot more infrastructure in order to service 288 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:51,360 our people and make sure that basic services, if not quality services and secondary services 289 00:23:51,360 --> 00:23:54,560 are provided. 290 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:58,640 And this is all happening within a global reality of constraint. 291 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:04,120 SDGs reduce your climate, your carbon emissions, protect nature. 292 00:24:04,120 --> 00:24:08,520 And so there are a whole set of growth needs happening within constraints. 293 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:13,720 But the vastness of that is just unimaginable for a single person or a single agent trying 294 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,120 to drive that change. 295 00:24:16,120 --> 00:24:22,640 The second challenge then is the collision of all these crises, climate crisis, biodiversity 296 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:32,200 crisis, environmental degradation, infrastructure failure, inequity, lack of resources, et cetera. 297 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:41,800 And because of all of these pressures, we tend to have a rather pessimistic view and 298 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:50,600 we tend to frame all of our development aspirations based on an issue or a problem statement. 299 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:56,080 We've got this many malnourished people, therefore this is a route forward. 300 00:24:56,080 --> 00:25:00,960 And while these are of course, really, really important pressures to be paying attention 301 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:06,440 to and climate crisis next to urbanization is the biggest mega trend that's going to 302 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:10,720 undermine our civilization and our society. 303 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:18,720 But not letting that paradigm determine how you engage with the world is really important 304 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:24,240 because if we keep talking about problems, that's all we're going to see. 305 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:31,960 And so the challenge of mindset towards solutions orientation towards a set of people who are 306 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:37,200 operating joyfully and trying to drive change, and there are many of them, there are tons 307 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:43,240 of people doing fabulous work in cities, in communities, at national political level around 308 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,840 the continent. 309 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,080 But we tend not to focus on those types of successes. 310 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,640 And particularly because everything is accelerating so fast in the world right now, we also need 311 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:54,620 to be fast, everything is urgent. 312 00:25:54,620 --> 00:25:58,280 And so it means that we can't celebrate these sort of small wins, we don't celebrate the 313 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,000 small wins. 314 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:09,680 And then the third one is also a mindset issue, which is that we don't view creativity and 315 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:19,240 learning as central assets, we view them as nice to haves, you know, we view them as the 316 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:25,720 icing on top, we view creativity as a way to make whatever we've worked on look better, 317 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:31,360 feel better, sound better, where in fact, it's the vehicle towards a fundamental shift. 318 00:26:31,360 --> 00:26:37,840 And we need to center creative, and again, another buzzword, innovative approaches, as 319 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,920 the way in which we'll reshape our cities. 320 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:47,460 If you come in with a I'm going to patch that problem, you're going to get some things stolen 321 00:26:47,460 --> 00:26:52,540 from some of the context which may or may not work, which might feel okay. 322 00:26:52,540 --> 00:26:58,140 Because if we look at what our cities are, what they represent for us, and we think joyfully 323 00:26:58,140 --> 00:27:03,500 and creatively about what they what we want them to do for us, you've already created 324 00:27:03,500 --> 00:27:10,040 a whole set of opportunities for localized context relevant ideas to come and are they 325 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,820 going to look like the other cities? 326 00:27:12,820 --> 00:27:16,260 Not necessarily, but who needs them to as long as they serve the purpose that people 327 00:27:16,260 --> 00:27:19,040 think the cities need to have here. 328 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:25,520 So those are my three challenges or provocations for for urban development. 329 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:31,160 So that links so well what you just said Paul to a conversation I listened to with your 330 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:37,720 colleague Ingrid Krötze in a podcast conversation on talking transformations and another podcast 331 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:42,680 recently and I'm paraphrasing and she said, in African city, there's not much money, but 332 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:48,040 there's a lot of action on transforming areas towards more livable, sustainable, more nature 333 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,220 positive. 334 00:27:51,220 --> 00:27:52,220 Do you see that as well? 335 00:27:52,220 --> 00:27:56,880 Can you elaborate a little bit about about this quote and what how you how you see that 336 00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:03,960 and what futures in relation to climate and biodiversity and social justice do you see 337 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:11,200 or envision for African cities and can you actually say that for for all African cities 338 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:16,980 or how would you how would you differentiate? 339 00:28:16,980 --> 00:28:23,080 So while at once I can demand there to be more creativity in the way that we think about 340 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:30,640 our cities, seeing these visions land is also quite difficult because we're so stuck in 341 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:35,160 what we're seeing around and so imagining something completely different can be quite 342 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,900 difficult for me. 343 00:28:37,900 --> 00:28:45,920 The tension of what our cities should and could look like is drawn, you know, is totally 344 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,880 connected to the resources we have available to build them. 345 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:54,720 And there's this tension, you know, that we mentioned earlier between this public amenity 346 00:28:54,720 --> 00:29:00,840 and public infrastructure that is built for everyone, you know, by a state or by someone 347 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,160 with resources to service everyone. 348 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:09,040 And because we don't have that many resources now that we're kind of leaving that paradigm 349 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:10,040 behind. 350 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:14,240 And so it means that you're now counting on private smaller private entities to invest 351 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:20,800 here and there, which creates a big question about public benefit and public amenity. 352 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:27,680 And are we not creating a whole set of splintered urban spaces? 353 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:34,280 So when asking these questions about livable cities, nature positive cities, that is absolutely 354 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:39,440 a vision that we need to promote and excite people about. 355 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:44,840 But more than that, it needs to also have a point about how do we get there? 356 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,280 Whose role is it to get us there? 357 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,360 And how do we mobilize resources to do so? 358 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:57,700 And I think there need to be stronger calls by governments and urban actors to drive resources 359 00:29:57,700 --> 00:30:05,440 towards these types of programming, which have at their out as their outcome, public 360 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:11,080 good and public amenity, because all too often we see developments going and framing themselves 361 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:16,560 as the smart city, the inclusive city, but only for neighborhood scale or something like 362 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,120 that and only for a select set of people. 363 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:25,040 So that's the risk that we're seeing currently with the amount of resource available is that 364 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:33,080 there's some money to do something, but it's not for all it's not with that inclusive vision. 365 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,800 So that's my reflection on it. 366 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:36,800 Good. 367 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:43,120 And when we when we are zooming into into South Africa, from the outside, the stakes 368 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,240 to transform urban areas seem very high. 369 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:51,440 As the rising sea level rise due to climate climate emergency, a water crisis, energy 370 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:52,440 crisis. 371 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:57,960 And we already said, or you already mentioned that there's so much focus on crisis and problems, 372 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:04,320 which might not be helpful, but there's also a lot of these very basic infrastructures 373 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:10,320 and things to consider and to to improve. 374 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:14,120 How would you describe the everyday life and the challenges of people in Cape Town and 375 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:20,100 maybe also the positive angles to it, the creativity, what is there to where you where 376 00:31:20,100 --> 00:31:26,120 you are hopeful to overcome all these challenges and so on? 377 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:30,240 So I mean, South Africa is quite different from the rest of the continent or the rest 378 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:36,400 of Sub-Saharan Africa because there was a whole slew of public infrastructures that 379 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:37,400 were developed. 380 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,760 And so our you know, what's sad about the current situation is we've seen a whole set 381 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:48,240 of infrastructure degradation due to limited investment in the infrastructure. 382 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,320 And this is slightly different from other contexts within South Africa or on the continent 383 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:56,440 where we need new infrastructure full stop. 384 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,760 So obviously to maintain what exists, but really need a lot more. 385 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,720 So the route for South Africa, in my mind, is quite simple. 386 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:09,080 We've got a whole set of distribution infrastructure networks already established, water, electricity, 387 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:10,440 roads. 388 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:15,480 And so here we get a little bit of insight into what could be possible in the rest of 389 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:21,040 the continent in terms of having some informal systems or smaller systems. 390 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:26,440 But really, you know, for us, it's investing in keeping this infrastructure functioning 391 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:28,720 because we've already got the distribution systems. 392 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:33,920 So let's let's keep that asset working well. 393 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:39,120 You know, the everyday life in Cape Town, you know, I mean, we're tangling with this 394 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:40,120 curious question. 395 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:45,920 Cape Town has been in crisis since 2015. 396 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:52,360 It's the water crisis coming out of that towards 2018. 397 00:32:52,360 --> 00:33:00,360 Then heading into COVID lockdown, government enforced lockdowns, which completely drew 398 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:05,800 out how structural many of our problems are that we can't just bandaid them. 399 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,280 We can't just cover them up or address the symptoms. 400 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:15,800 And so really seeing different actors in the city deal with food crises, deal with the 401 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:22,480 question of jobs and livelihoods and a huge amount of despair emerging through this loss 402 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,120 of employment. 403 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:31,800 Then cost of living crises associated with the war in Ukraine and Russia. 404 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:35,400 And finally now a national electricity crisis. 405 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:44,720 So living in this space, we've felt a whole set of different crises. 406 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:46,440 And it draws out this really tough question. 407 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,480 Well, how do you get on with your life? 408 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:49,720 How do you plan for the future? 409 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:54,720 How do you think about the future of the city? 410 00:33:54,720 --> 00:34:00,580 And I think if we look at the positives, we've got a set of people who are incredibly resilient 411 00:34:00,580 --> 00:34:06,940 and creative and able to come up with ways of supporting their communities and neighbors. 412 00:34:06,940 --> 00:34:12,960 And so really interesting social systems have emerged to cover for all of the failures in 413 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:17,200 the technical infrastructure systems. 414 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:19,200 So I would say that that's our asset. 415 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:26,800 However, there's a point where you can't get stuck with the label of resilient. 416 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:28,760 We may be a resilient people. 417 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:33,760 And I know that our president has commented on this and celebrated this. 418 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:35,160 But we shouldn't have to be. 419 00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:40,520 We need to head back to towards a sense of there being abundant opportunity, abundant 420 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:46,160 resources, because only in a paradigm where you have food available, you've got energy 421 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:51,160 available, everyone is sheltered, everyone has access to work, can you start to get people 422 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:55,720 to exercise creativity and push boundaries? 423 00:34:55,720 --> 00:34:59,640 A lot of people say scarcity is what leads to innovation and new ideas. 424 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:03,800 And to a degree, there's pressure put on by that. 425 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:08,320 But in a sense of abundance, you create an enabling environment for new types of business, 426 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:11,120 new roots, which can be resourced. 427 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:17,040 If you don't have the resources, any new idea can't take fruit, can't fly. 428 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:25,800 And so capitalizing on a set of exceedingly creative people in South Africa, I think, 429 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,480 is really valuable. 430 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:29,600 But they need to be resourced. 431 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:37,680 So many, many African cities are also seeing a lot of population growth and a lot of movement 432 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:39,240 towards the cities. 433 00:35:39,240 --> 00:35:45,600 I think it's the highest on the planet at the moment, the speed and scale of how many 434 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,640 people move to the cities. 435 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:54,100 Given the challenges, would your efforts not be better spent to improve the living conditions 436 00:35:54,100 --> 00:36:02,680 and on reducing the inequalities within and across African cities, then focusing on sustainability 437 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,040 and resilience and so on? 438 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:06,040 Yeah. 439 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:11,000 And so, I mean, this is what's wonderful about ICLEI is that every regional office has a 440 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,480 whole set of contexts that it has to engage with. 441 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:19,720 So we are local governments for sustainability, but it's up to each region to interpret what 442 00:36:19,720 --> 00:36:20,720 that means. 443 00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:26,280 And if you're going to do any form of environmental work or sustainability work in Africa, you 444 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:28,160 have to start with people. 445 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:33,360 You cannot, for example, in the Cape Town drought, put a broad messaging that people 446 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:38,360 need to reduce their water consumption to below 50 liters when there are neighborhoods 447 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:42,360 in which people only access 20 a day. 448 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:50,840 So if you want to have any success in environmental programming or to achieve sustainability, 449 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,600 you have to engage people and you have to address their basic needs. 450 00:36:54,600 --> 00:37:03,920 So how I've operated within the urban systems team tends to be with a bit of a quirky mantra, 451 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:08,160 which is people first environment at the same time. 452 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:13,160 And what that suggests to me is that you're investing in people's agency and voice, you're 453 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:18,160 investing in the resources that they have access to, you're investing in giving them 454 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:19,600 more time. 455 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:24,880 What we forget so often is that if someone has to fetch food from the market every day 456 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:29,920 because they don't have refrigeration or reliable refrigeration at home, if their lights aren't 457 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:37,320 working at home, you've reduced the amount of time that they have available to be socially 458 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:43,540 productive, productive for work to actually have their own time because people get so 459 00:37:43,540 --> 00:37:45,760 caught in looking after their own needs. 460 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,960 If someone is caught in traffic for four hours going to work and coming back from work eight 461 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:56,080 hours a day, when are they going to participate in recreation and connect with people? 462 00:37:56,080 --> 00:38:02,200 So you have to address basic services, you have to address people's voice and participation 463 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,880 in making the city. 464 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:09,680 But if you do this thoughtfully and cleverly, the resources you invest in that are also 465 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:11,180 good for the environment. 466 00:38:11,180 --> 00:38:15,600 So the services that you're laying, the energy that you're producing, how can you count on 467 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:20,320 environmentally regenerative types of technologies or processes for doing that? 468 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:24,680 And that provocation requires you to then be creative about how you take sustainability 469 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:26,640 messaging forward. 470 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:31,800 Are you engaging communities around a specific type of renewable energy technology? 471 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,880 Or are you engaging communities around getting energy and all the things that they can do 472 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:40,800 with that, you know, and focusing on the service point? 473 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:45,520 Obviously, if you are doing this cleverly, you are engaging with people and helping them 474 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:49,720 to be champions of these types of environmental programs. 475 00:38:49,720 --> 00:38:53,200 But it's also not necessarily their role or responsibility to do so. 476 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:59,840 And I think we burden a lot of communities, particularly the urban poor, with experiments 477 00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:04,640 and new types of practices, which we think work. 478 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:11,120 And there are a whole set of mythologies around what an African city is supposed to be, or 479 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:17,000 it's okay to be, which I think needs severe challenging. 480 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:21,360 Simply because we go in with a, oh, we don't have the resources, so this composting toilet 481 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:23,360 is good enough. 482 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:30,360 And so how are we making decisions about urban infrastructure with the communities who are 483 00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:33,720 beneficiaries of it or demanding it? 484 00:39:33,720 --> 00:39:37,360 Instead of going in right up front and saying, oh, we don't have the resources, here's something 485 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:39,360 which might work. 486 00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:40,360 Yeah. 487 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:41,360 Wow. 488 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:47,160 Paul, coming back to a point from earlier, I would be very interested in hearing more 489 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:52,520 about the role of informality in African cities. 490 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:59,600 Well, informality is a misnomer, you know, because it's framed as being other than the 491 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:03,120 formal, other than the correct. 492 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:04,120 And who said so? 493 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:05,120 Right? 494 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:10,320 And so we've interpreted a whole set of languages which dismiss the majority system in most 495 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:12,320 of these spaces. 496 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:17,480 And informality, we tend to be talking, you know, either around settlements and people, 497 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:23,240 you know, building their own homes, investing their own sweat and resources into creating 498 00:40:23,240 --> 00:40:30,680 shelter and to talk about informal vending and trade and retail and businesses. 499 00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:35,760 So the informal economy and informal settlements, we tend to sort of lump into the sort of sense 500 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,440 of, oh, informal. 501 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:43,040 And because we've inherited this language, we tend not to be overly critical of it and 502 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,120 to think about, well, what are we actually trying to define? 503 00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:52,320 And the problem is that when you look at informal systems, you're relying on intuition to define 504 00:40:52,320 --> 00:41:00,160 it, which often leads to these really negative terms like disruptive, in the way, you know, 505 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:09,160 criminal, illegal, dirty, not, you know, disruptive or engaging, not engaging with our correct 506 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:10,920 systems in the right way. 507 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:18,040 And so you see this with a whole set of targeted accusations at informal motorbike taxis, 508 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:23,880 at food vendors who are on the street side and maybe encroaching into the road because 509 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:27,200 there's not enough space for everyone. 510 00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:34,360 And in informal settlements, where there's demands for services, but not necessarily 511 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:39,400 space to get emergency services in or to get infrastructure in. 512 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:45,120 And so there's a sort of tension that emerges between the so-called formal system and the 513 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:47,400 informal system. 514 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:54,200 And our sense is that we need a whole set of new terminologies to make us engage with 515 00:41:54,200 --> 00:42:05,080 these systems a bit more honestly and appropriately, you know, because with this lack of vocabulary 516 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:11,440 comes a lack of understanding, even though intuitively we can see that informal systems 517 00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:14,680 are servicing the cities and many officials will be able to say, well, these are the things 518 00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:16,000 that they're offering or not. 519 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:22,440 So how do you shift to a paradigm in which you are able to distinguish between people 520 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:30,200 and groups who are doing illegal things, you know, and causing harm versus people who are 521 00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:36,960 putting themselves in danger, for example, by building their homes in floodplains versus 522 00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:44,200 people who are offering valuable services and filling gaps in infrastructure. 523 00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:50,520 And so informal vendors or people operating in informal economy are bridging a whole set 524 00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:55,720 of systems that are not functioning in an inclusive manner. 525 00:42:55,720 --> 00:43:01,080 So how do you shift that paradigm to say, well, let's invest in this as opposed to demonizing? 526 00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:05,600 And part of them is, yeah, and that point, as I said already, is we've got to change 527 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:07,600 the way we speak about informal. 528 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:13,080 Across Africa, there are many highly inspiring and interesting ideas and visions and path-leaning 529 00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:20,120 innovations being worked on and also implemented, which challenge the status quo and the 530 00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:24,120 way we do or people do urbanism in this region. 531 00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:33,640 What are two examples or two cases of recent years which you find particularly interesting? 532 00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:37,280 So there's so many, you know, small experiments. 533 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,560 And I mean, the question is always, how do you get these sort of built and spread? 534 00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:47,640 And, you know, if I'm thinking of things which have inspired me, one of the ideas around 535 00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:53,880 keeping the social fabric of cities working is certainly through the Friendship Bench 536 00:43:53,880 --> 00:44:07,800 Project, which is in Harare in Zimbabwe, where amazing individuals wanted to tackle the question 537 00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:15,040 of mental health and provide space for people to talk about their challenges. 538 00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:21,520 And because there's a taboo around being explicit or explicitly talking about mental health, 539 00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:31,360 the idea was to train grandmothers who they suggest have a natural empathy in basic mental 540 00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:39,680 health care and guidance and to then situate them on park benches and make them available 541 00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:46,320 for people to come and sit and talk to in a way that doesn't feel as formalized as sitting 542 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:54,440 with a therapist, but creates a space for people to reflect and navigate a lot of mental 543 00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:57,320 issues. 544 00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:03,360 So if you're talking about urban spaces as often quite isolating and challenging for 545 00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:10,320 people who come into their rhythms, I think that's a really interesting social innovation. 546 00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:21,800 In Cape Town, a while back, there was an idea to do some informal settlement improvements, 547 00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:25,640 and this was done through the violence prevention through urban upgrading program in Monwell 548 00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:36,600 BC Park, and their entry point was in creating a set of ICTs, information communication technologies, 549 00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:41,240 that would report on the state of water and sanitation infrastructure. 550 00:45:41,240 --> 00:45:46,840 So sensors on the toilets to say if they were still functioning, sensors on the taps to 551 00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:48,760 note if they were running. 552 00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:54,440 And by setting up this mesh network, which was an affordable way to send information, 553 00:45:54,440 --> 00:46:01,080 they also created a basis for information sharing within the community, and then expanded 554 00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:06,400 this to then be an intranet with resources that people living in this space could access, 555 00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:07,400 they could communicate. 556 00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:12,640 And although there was a really interesting route to start with information technology 557 00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:20,320 as a way of ensuring that basic service provision was being met, but also enabling people to 558 00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:26,360 access job opportunities, skills development, communicate with their peers in an affordable 559 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:27,360 manner. 560 00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:32,600 And I think that's really novel because we tend to start with basic infrastructure, you 561 00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:36,040 know, all your basic needs, shelter, water, energy, okay, cool. 562 00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:44,280 And so here, prioritizing access to information and the ability to put your own ideas onto 563 00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:51,040 an intra web or an internet, I think is really interesting. 564 00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:58,440 And then finally, you know, though it's a standard idea, I think it's important to note 565 00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:01,960 that getting the basics right is also worth celebrating. 566 00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:09,760 And so in Accra, there's a champion in the waste department who is adamant around improving 567 00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:13,760 the waste management system in Accra in Ghana. 568 00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:18,800 And his interpretation of a circular economy is effectively that we're going to do things 569 00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:23,560 simply, we're going to separate the organic waste and all the other recyclable other things 570 00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:24,560 that are able to be recycled. 571 00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:31,520 And if we can, as the city, take charge of the organic waste, make sure that it's treated 572 00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:37,680 turned into compost or biomethane for use in another function, then that's an element 573 00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:39,640 of circular economy. 574 00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:45,160 But by getting that separation right, we're making sure that the other recyclet is not 575 00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:49,600 contaminated by organic waste, and that the informal sector can do something with it can 576 00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:53,520 collect it, treat it, repurpose it. 577 00:47:53,520 --> 00:48:00,000 And if they get that right, it has then the causal effects of stopping waste getting into 578 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:04,260 the drainage canals and stopping the inordinate amount of flooding that's currently going 579 00:48:04,260 --> 00:48:09,760 on because the drainage system is under capacity. 580 00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:14,160 And so I thought that was just a really interesting articulation of circular economy in terms 581 00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:16,320 of that very specific context. 582 00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:21,760 And so getting that right, feels very important to promote and support. 583 00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:22,760 Right. 584 00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:30,540 And Paul, where do you see urbanism in in South Africa or in in Africa, go from here? 585 00:48:30,540 --> 00:48:36,320 What futures in relation to climate and biodiversity and social justice do you see or envision 586 00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:43,800 for the continent? 587 00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:51,720 I see a lot of really exciting things emerge, mainly because cities are slow, slow things, 588 00:48:51,720 --> 00:48:53,020 they're slow geology. 589 00:48:53,020 --> 00:48:58,840 And so it takes a lot of energy to make changes in any of them. 590 00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:04,080 And while for us, sometimes this slowness feels frustrating and we want to see change, 591 00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:11,600 there is a burgeoning of young urbanists of people who are pushing for new ways of engaging 592 00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:12,880 in our cities. 593 00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:20,480 And there is a much larger global appreciation of the importance of cities and local government. 594 00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:26,560 But also this much larger global acknowledgement of the importance and power of cities to drive 595 00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:28,040 change in countries. 596 00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:33,520 So my sense is that we're going to see more and more experiments emerge as more resources 597 00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:38,240 are put into, so to speak, future proofing cities. 598 00:49:38,240 --> 00:49:44,160 In Africa, the main priority is not on a decarbonization route. 599 00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:48,800 That's a future concern and something to be thinking about while we build the next cities. 600 00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:50,360 But it really is about adaptation. 601 00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:58,200 If we are not going to meet the 1.5 degree global increase in temperature, Africa needs 602 00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:03,520 to prepare for much higher than average global temperature rises and what that means for 603 00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:08,540 then our food systems, for our coastal settlements. 604 00:50:08,540 --> 00:50:17,360 So it's a sort of rather meso vision, which is we know that there are going to be a vast 605 00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:20,600 increase in severe storms, flooding events, droughts. 606 00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:27,040 So how do we proactively take that knowledge and apply our creativity to it? 607 00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:29,960 And I think there are a lot of people asking really, really fabulous questions around how 608 00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:34,560 to do that and how to encourage resources to flow that way. 609 00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:42,420 Paul, before we close, do you have two or three recommendations for someone who wants 610 00:50:42,420 --> 00:50:48,880 to change anything in their city or in their urban area? 611 00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:54,160 Well first, I can do a shameless punt to our platform called Rise Africa, which is about 612 00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:57,760 inspiring action for sustainable cities. 613 00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:05,120 And it has a whole set of fabulous sessions and resources that hopefully will inspire. 614 00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:11,160 And so the aim of it is very much to be a joyful platform for inspiring people to take 615 00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:13,840 action. 616 00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:20,520 The second then I think is just in all the work you're doing, seek the collaborators. 617 00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:26,840 So seek the people who are going to align with your energy and who can complement your 618 00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:35,840 work because trying to drive any form of change in a community, in a city, globally can feel 619 00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:37,280 very isolating. 620 00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:43,920 And so given that we've got these multi pressures of the urgency of the need for change, the 621 00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:48,720 desire to be creative and the desire to create space for the voices that are not mainstreamed 622 00:51:48,720 --> 00:51:53,280 in these conversations, you need allies to do that well. 623 00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:58,240 So that would be the one there. 624 00:51:58,240 --> 00:52:03,480 And then something sort of pragmatic is any process that you start, think about how you're 625 00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:05,160 going to resource it. 626 00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:09,160 And so where are the resources available to drive that change? 627 00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:14,540 Can you convince different actors to subsidize some of your work? 628 00:52:14,540 --> 00:52:17,160 Can you convince people to match funds? 629 00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:22,440 And how can you be creative around how you allocate or gain resources? 630 00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:27,160 And the reason I say this, and it might be a rather boring third piece is if you start 631 00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:32,240 any process without a sense of where resources are going to come from, you risk the validity 632 00:52:32,240 --> 00:52:34,120 of that process falling flat. 633 00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:37,880 And so we're in a space where we need to be very thoughtful about the promises we make 634 00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:43,480 and the processes that we run so that they can actually see impact on the ground. 635 00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:45,320 The idea space is full. 636 00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:46,800 There are tons of fabulous ideas. 637 00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:48,560 It can always use more. 638 00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:54,200 But what people on the ground, what residents, what local government officials, what community 639 00:52:54,200 --> 00:53:00,120 mobilizers and what private sector are all demanding now is yes, but what does it look 640 00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:02,040 like on the ground? 641 00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:03,840 Can we see a drive change? 642 00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:08,320 So having that orientation of turning the idea into something on the ground is really 643 00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:09,320 important. 644 00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:15,160 Paul, thank you so much for having me here in Cape Town at EECLE Africa's office. 645 00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:18,440 It's really a pleasure to talk to you again and to meet you again in person. 646 00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:20,520 I always talk to you. 647 00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:25,920 I always like talking to you too much because there's so much knowledge about African urbanism, 648 00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:31,840 but also you have so much personally, so much knowledge on urban systems and urban complexities 649 00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:32,840 and so on. 650 00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:37,000 I learn a lot also from the time when we worked together on this webinar series. 651 00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:40,760 I hope we have a chance to meet again soon, maybe at World Urban Forum next year since 652 00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:41,760 it's in Africa. 653 00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:42,760 Surely. 654 00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:43,760 I really hope so. 655 00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:46,200 Paul, thank you so much for being on the show. 656 00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:50,720 Thank you so much for the provocative questions and hope they stand as some inspiration for 657 00:53:50,720 --> 00:53:51,720 others. 658 00:53:51,720 --> 00:53:54,580 That's it for today's show. 659 00:53:54,580 --> 00:54:00,400 If you want to find out more about Paul's work in EECLE Africa, you find the links in 660 00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:01,800 the show notes. 661 00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:03,120 I hope you liked the episode. 662 00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:07,800 If you did, I would be very happy if you would rate the show and if you subscribe to the 663 00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:14,600 channel and follow the show on Instagram or get connected to me via LinkedIn or email. 664 00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:32,520 Thank you so much and I hope to catch you soon.