See, I believe that all the mysteries of the
universe, all the answers to life's questions
can be found in a Spielberg film. I've been afraid
for all of my life. Why doesn't somebody just
shoot me in the head? Right up until the day
I knew my life was ending. You look bad. No,
man. You smell bad. I'm pretty fucking far from ok.
Really, I feel like I'm sharing a very- Look at my shit. I had an affair- precious
moment with you. There are no nations. There are
no peoples. Are you threatening me, dick? You
don't approve. Fake. Well, too bad. Totally fake.
Did it seem fake- You look like a damn crackhead.
when my best friend was bitten in half in front of me? I found this
cover story I personally embarrassed myself. Plenty of sausage and pepperonis. Everything
but the little fishies. Alrighty. Welcome to
Everything But the Little Fishies. Welcome. I'm
Evan. Welcome. I'm Mike. And today we're getting
into Spielberg again. We're going to talk about
his classic Close Encounters of the Third Kind
from 1977. And then we're going to talk about
his brand new film Disclosure Day, which just
came out a couple days ago. Yesterday. June 13th
today. So we're getting in there early. We're
trying. I mean, I saw it on Thursday, though.
I guess movies just come out a day before they
really come out anymore, I guess. I guess so.
That's some new thing. But yeah, today's June
13th. We're going to get into it. June 13th,
2026. This is the first time Mike and I have
seen this movie, obviously, and we haven't talked
about it at all before this point. So it's going
to be very, very hard for me to not want to just
immediately talk about Disclosure Day, but I
guess we're going to. Start with Close Encounters
to kind of just... Yeah, man, we gotta set the
scene. That's how we do it, chronological. Sure,
yeah. The only reason I was having a different
feeling about this is because I watched Close
Encounters the other week. I actually watched
it twice, basically. I watched the director's
cut and then the special edition. And I was really
kind of disturbed by Close Encounters. I felt
like there was a lot of weird questions and...
There's a lot of things in it that feel very,
not, like, sinister, but definitely cryptic or
something. Like, I don't know. There's something
weird about it. And I can't tell if that's just,
like, because I kind of have this new way of
looking at Spielberg movies and I have a hard
time just, like, taking it at face value. Right.
Because, like, when you take Close Encounters
at face value, it's a relatively simple movie.
It's a very simple story and it's very clear
what the motivations are and kind of like it
culminates in this big kind of epic thing. And
it really does feel like an attempt to create
wonder and awe and spectacle, which at the time
was not nearly as common as it is today in cinema.
You know, obviously Spielberg kind of is one
of the biggest auteurs to create this type of
movie. Taking it at face value, you can very
much just imagine that Steven Spielberg is into
aliens. He's just a wondrous, creative person
who really wants to play around with the ideas
that there's life on other worlds and wants to
try and create this cinematic reality for that.
Just something Spielberg's always been into is
getting us closer and closer to these fantasies.
We can experience all these things vicariously
through his movies. all these wondrous, magical,
fantastical events, like aliens showing up and
dinosaurs being back. And obviously this is kind
of just like the reputation that solidified for
Spielberg, which we've discussed in previous
episodes. I don't know if you want to retread
that at all, but we've already kind of set the
stage for how we feel like Steven Spielberg is
not merely a slick commercial director, that
he's not just a propagandic filmmaker putting
out the sort of... approved colloquialisms of
the day or whatever. And we've kind of had a
change of heart about him and how he's actually
a very intelligent, thoughtful filmmaker who
makes films with lots of layers and he thinks
about the choices he makes, or at the very least
he feels the choices he makes in a way that is
very intuitive and leads to a work that really
lends to conspiracy theory thought, you know,
in a way that Kubrick does or something. I mean,
specifically Close Encounters, right? Which is,
I mean, behind the scenes on the 4K disc, he's
pretty straightforward about, like, at the time,
I believed in aliens. And then also Watergate
happened. So I kind of combined those things.
He's pretty straightforward about it. And it
is. Yeah, it's conspiracy theory minded. And
so there is a lot of that stuff that is... evocative
of something I get what you're saying that it's
not necessarily something sinister but I do also
read it as something sinister often yeah depending
on how you look at it I mean so I guess like
You brought up Spielberg in these interviews,
right? Another thing Spielberg hasn't done very
much is interviews. He doesn't really talk about
his work very much. And when he does... I mean,
if he does, they're all very curated. Yeah. Especially
if you look at the press for Disclosure Day.
He's doing all sorts of even just like YouTube
channels and podcasts and whatnot. But... It's
the exact same talking points and scripted, like,
stories that he's telling. Is he talking about
how his dad brought him out to see the meteor
shower still? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's talking
about that in the Close Encounter stuff. He's
talking about that in the Disclosure Day stuff.
He's got very specific curated talking points
that are just as sort of curated and cryptic
as the movies themselves. You know what I mean?
I would agree because, like... One of the things
he's restated over and over about this movie
is that if he had made it today, he would not
have had Roy get onto the ship and abandon his
family, right? Well, I mean, he doesn't necessarily
say that, but he says that he doesn't feel like
he's the filmmaker who would make that movie
anymore. No, I know. You know what I mean? But
that is essentially saying, like... If I made
it today, it would be the exact same movie, but
he wouldn't get on the ship. It's like, no, no.
I think that it's just... I don't... I'm just
saying the way he stated it, which is just like,
I wouldn't have Roy abandon his family to go
with the aliens. Like, that's just not a choice
I would make right now because that's not who
I am. But that is like what he identified with
then, I think, if you also take his word at face
value, which I don't know if we always can with
Spielberg, but we can get to that later. I mean,
we know that his dad did do this, right? And
he didn't understand it at the time. Yeah. You
can definitely see his own family life playing
out in these movies and his kind of, you know,
underbelly of the suburbs sort of Americana.
That has become more and more clear as movies
go on. But then now you look back and it's like,
oh, man, I mean, it's always just been there.
I mean, Close Encounters was very Fablemans.
This is the first time I've watched Close Encounters
and just saw so much Fablemans in it. The train
set and all that stuff, and this idea that Roy
is kind of like an adult child because he has
some kind of trauma or thing that he's never
really dealt with that's allowed him to accept
his adult role in this life, and he's kind of
just dreaming and hoping for some magic to happen,
which is, you know. I think Spielberg also is
pretty straightforward about how he identified
with this character because at that time of his
life, he was a guy shooting for his dreams. And
he was a guy from a broken family who maybe didn't
see the value in that. You know, like that was
just trauma. That was just hurt. And I found
my solace and my therapy in art. And I think
like Roy, Spielberg grew up on Disney. I'm sure
he saw Pinocchio when he was a kid too. Pinocchio
is like, For a young boy, it's a story about
finding yourself and becoming a real person.
And becoming a real person... Something that
Roy basically has not done. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it's capped by this song, one of Disney's
most famous songs, When You Wish Upon a Star.
This statement of reaching towards your dreams.
That things are possible. You can reach for the
stars. That very much connects with this story
of the shooting stars, the meteor shower that
he went to see, and then the aliens and all the
shooting stars in the movie and the aliens as
stars. I mean, the behind -the -scenes doc, Three
Kinds of Close Encounters, the one on the Blu
-ray, ends with Spielberg saying, quote, I always
thought the theme of the film was based on Jiminy
Cricket singing When You Wish Upon a Star from
the film Pinocchio, because that for me was the
impetus. And that's how I found my story. That
if you wish for something and if you use a star
to wish upon, you will make your dreams come
true. And I really thought that there was an
element of this film that had a lot to do with
wish fulfillment and about making the dreams
that everybody around you say are impossible.
I really thought those lyrics, when you wish
upon a star, makes no difference who you are,
was for me the very beginning of everything.
That's the way he ends that doc. Totally. But
like, if that's what's being... discussed here
in close encounters where like roy is shooting
for his dreams right like the idea that like
he is dissatisfied in a middle class american
life and it's uh it's empty and that like the
truth is shooting for some kind of dream that
this like this material reality is not the thing
and that like right this whole thing where he
starts to imagine devil's tower just seems like
a metaphor for having like artistic inspiration,
you know, just like you have a vision and then
you're like, how do I make that happen? How do
I get there? Like we kind of talked about this
in our tenant episode, but the idea of like imagining
a future or having a vision that you then work
towards, that is the star, right? Like that is
the dream that like comes more and more into
focus or whatever. And that he's not the only
one. There's many people on this planet who have
the dream and are led towards their dream by
these voices and visions in their head. Who knows
where those come from in this movie? It's aliens,
but I would say it's God in real life or whatever.
The most logical metaphor for it is God or yourself
as God, your conscious, whatever it is. Conscious
is also a big part of it. Pinocchio as well.
So I think like the movie does express this idea
of the modern world and the materialist organizations
and like the scientists and the government agencies,
they are all kind of there to stop the dreamers
from reaching their dreams. They are the ones
that want to have like proprietary ownership
over the dream, which is. The aliens, you know,
like the meeting of the aliens and the connection
to something godlike or spiritual or like beyond
us. And I think the thing Spielberg regrets looking
back on that is that like, nah, man, like I achieved
my dreams and that's not the thing. Like making
my movies, I love it, but like I wouldn't leave
my family to do this. I'm like, Spielberg's one
of the very fortunate people who gets to live
his dreams and have a family and kind of like,
He's really won at life. He's made an amazing
life out of his trauma. But I think all of this
goes back to what he's saying about his father
in the meteor shower. I think what's important
about telling that story is Steven Spielberg's
not telling you this story because it inspired
him to believe in aliens and the mysteries of
the cosmos. He's telling this story because it's
a time when his father... connected with him.
Like at the time when his father did something
that like connected him to wonder, I think that's
like, what's more important about the story.
This is father. And the fact that his father
did this thing and it's less about, are there
aliens up there? We're like, Ooh, what's out
there. It's so interesting. How mysterious. I
think, I think that what his father did was not
something that is inherently beautiful. You know
what I mean? I think that the movie is presenting
this as sort of the benign aliens and, you know,
the beauty of this sort of thing. But at the
same time, like if you look at the behind the
scenes stuff, like the original designs for the
alien spaceships were like McDonald's and Chevron
logos. They were specifically American consumerist
symbols. And when you watch the movie, when they
show up in the first place, they shine their
light on a McDonald's sign. They're very much
connected to McDonald's and these other logos
that they cut to during the invasion sequences
and stuff. And when they first show up, they
show up through the toys, then they show up through
the mail, then they show up through the electronics.
and things. It's media. It's a media thing to
me that I think that the aliens are representing.
And I think that they're the ones that give all
of these people this vision. When you say they're
God that gives people inspiration or whatever,
I think that's kind of like the narrative of
the movie that I would feel good about in the
end. You know what I mean? It's a positive sort
of optimistic view of the movie. I think it's
undercut by the fact that he leaves his family.
I think that part of it is that these people
are given their dreams by corporate America.
And then, yeah, they, you know, try and climb
to the top of this thing and become the number
one baby boomer or whatever. But the thing that
they're chasing is like something that's sold
to them by corporate America and whatnot. Not
so much God or something. beautiful because i
i think and you know this is going to kind of
end up being more repetitive stuff like you know
we've talked in other episodes about how we think
spielberg is like a kubrick and a real director
not just a crass commercial director but also
we've talked in other episodes about childhood's
end and how important you know childhood's end
is to 2001 a space odyssey and i would say how
important childhood's end is to close encounters
of the third kind i think that is kind of really
what spielberg is doing here In the Spielberg
HBO documentary, in reference to Close Encounters
of the Third Kind, it's one of the only times
he references Kubrick in that entire doc. But
he says... he wanted Close Encounters of the
Third Kind to go further than Kubrick did with
2001. It wanted to be the next step beyond sort
of 2001. And if you watch the movie, I think
that there's no way of thinking that it went
further than 2001 as far as like special effects
or anything like that. It's not nearly as much
of a spectacle of a movie. It doesn't look nearly
as big budget. I know it was. I mean, like the
biggest set ever constructed at the time, but
it's just like a landing strip. Yeah. When you
hear the production, it sounds like a heaven's
gate. The amount of money and stuff being put
into this is ridiculous. And so little of it
shows up on screen. This does not look like an
expensive movie. It was supposed to be a $2 million
movie or something, and they just kept going
deeper and deeper and deeper until it was more
than... It costs like $20 million to make or
something, which is a lot of the time. Yeah,
it's more than 10 times the original budget.
Basically, I like to think of 2001 as a remake
of Childhood's End. And to spoil Childhood's
End on another episode, once again, it's about
aliens first coming to Earth. And they appear
above all the cities on earth and they kind of
take control. And they're benign and they're
helping people be good to animals and they're
helping people not be in wars and they're helping
the economies and everything becomes more convenient.
And the only thing that they're not doing is
revealing themselves to us. And, you know, people
are like, you know, come on, show us who you
are and that'll make people happier. Like you
haven't done anything wrong. Like we're all on
your side. It's just that everyone would feel
more comfortable if you would just show yourselves
to us. And the aliens say, no, no, no, you're
not ready. You're not ready. In 50 years, you'll
be ready and we'll show ourselves to you. And
then 50 years later, they reveal themselves and
it turns out to be Satan. It turns out to be
a demon with horns and that his right hand is
seated, you know, a child who's openly embracing
Satan because Satan has brought him 50 years
of prosperity. So he doesn't, and there's no
longer religion because that's been eliminated
and all superstitions been eliminated and whatever.
So when Satan appears, it's like, oh, well, that's
just. satan he's on our side we were stupid to
not trust him and that's kind of i think the
thing is that this is a movie where we see the
process of this guy just sort of getting on this
ship um just sort of giving up his life and all
of everything that has any value to just join
this sort of satan you know what i mean i mean
when that marionette alien comes out in the first
place and the the music and the lens flares behind
him and they're just like whoa it's like that
is that is a vision of satan like if you ask
me that's how it plays do you not feel the same
way it's so dark there's so much that's just
like weird and creepy about it but also a lot
of it feels like downstream of weird production
things and stuff like one of the weirdest things
is how the aliens come out in like three sets
there's like the first alien that you're talking
about just basically because they couldn't figure
out which one they're going to use yeah and they
just use all of them and they're all different
they're all different looking entirely it's like
such a bizarre choice like it doesn't really
Make a lot of sense. I think the incongruity
of it is like part of what makes it feel otherworldly
and give you the Unheimlichkeit sort of feeling.
Exactly. It makes you feel uncomfortable. Like
that's another thing that's. International community
of aliens too. Like there's not all one type
of alien in there. There's not only one type
of creature in there. That's what Spielberg says
about it. Yeah. Yeah. But it's also weird. It's
like this weird marionette guy and then a bunch
of 10 year old girls. Yeah. Then a bunch of girls.
Yeah. It's like a weird satanic vision of a weird
marionette guy and then cherubs and shit. And
then a robot. And the robot. Yeah, the proto
-ET. That was modeled after the little boy, Carrie.
And it's like actually pretty evident when it
smiles. It's very creepy. Yeah, it looks exactly
like him. It's very creepy. Because again, that's
like equating, like you have the little ones
that are actually portrayed by little girls.
And then you have that one that's equating the
aliens with the little boy. So there is really
something about these abductees all being children.
And there is, yes, the one tall marionette one,
but there's something weird about that. Well,
and all the other abductees are adults. And at
the same time, there's also the story about how
Spielberg had to be convinced to hire Dreyfus.
And basically, Dreyfus couldn't convince him,
couldn't convince him. And the way that he convinced
him in the end was by saying, like, look, look,
you need a child. You need a child to play this
role. And it's sort of like, oh, okay, that makes
sense. And you got the role. And so I think that
there's really something about like who they're
abducting is children. No, they're also abducting
like pilots from World War II and like all kinds
of shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's true. That's
part of the history of the thing. Yeah. But I
think that it's interesting that the design,
two out of the three designs of the aliens that
are used are specifically about being 10 -year
-old kids. And then the other one's a weird marionette
guy that looks like Satan. And has to do, obviously,
with the puppet that is Pinocchio and everything.
And obviously the only abduction we see in the
movie is the abduction of the kid and the enticing
of the kid and the making the kid feel comfortable
and safe with the alien presence or whatever.
And so he becomes the kid who gets in the van
with strangers, you know? Right, right. And the
fact that the kid isn't afraid of it because
he's been brought up with it. Because it comes
to him through the media and through his toys
and things. And to me, that is the story of Childhood's
End. That is like, yeah, well, it's the 50 years
in which these aliens are kind of in control
secretly. um and then it's not until kind of
the end when they reveal themselves to you and
when they reveal themselves to you you're just
like oh well like i love you and like and then
you get on you know and you walk straight into
your you know death essentially or whatever it
is you become a drone for that thing a zealot
for and the thing is what is that thing like
there's the there's the corporate america part
of it or whatever but to me i think that it's
not insignificant that this takes place at devil's
tower yeah yeah no exactly and and to me it's
also the first national monument in our country
that's interesting that's interesting yeah but
to me it's also it looks to me a lot like the
the dollar eye pyramid you know what i mean the
dollar it's the pyramid without the top of the
pyramid that has the all -seeing eye on it it's
the beginning of 2001 a space odyssey where you
see No, that's true. The multi -eye pyramid without
the eye. I mean, it kind of looks like the monolith,
yeah. It kind of looks like the monolith from
below shot that is the same shot that's on the
dollar bill with the pyramid and the eye. I mean,
even the poster. Instead of the sun or the moon
rising from it, it's the alien spaceship rises
from it. And there's a lot of emphasis, even
in the special features of Spielberg saying,
like, yeah, the spaceship, when it shows up,
it does rise. even though that doesn't make any
sense. I just, I did it because it like, it just,
to me, it was a vision that appeared to me and
I just had to do it that way and whatever. It's
like, well, yeah, but also it's rising from the
pyramid, just like the moon in 2001 and just
like the eye of the pyramid and the all seeing
eye that is the thing that this guy has been
working towards who secretly implanted these
ideas in the heads of these Americans and then
through the media got them to do these things.
It's like, these are all actually preexisting
ideas that, are all part of like monarch slave
MK ultra mind control like conspiracy theory
shit sure let me just mention real quick that
like people can be activated through the media
and like all be like all of a sudden a part of
some sort of it's like Manchurian candidate kind
of shit yeah like Manchurian candidate kind of
shit but also just as a quick aside in this case
though it's just for pure consumerism yeah the
front cover of the movie is also a road that
makes a pyramid up to it glowing at the top like
exactly yeah yeah there's a lot of that pyramid
imagery and the eye is the spaceship and the
spaceship is made after corporate logos and things
and then like industrial you know uh well obviously
they they got rid of the idea to make the spaceships
logos but when you hear them talk about why they
did that the reason they initially wanted to
make the spaceships corporate logos is because
they felt that would make them feel more comforting
to humans right um right right just like just
like the toys come to you that way to make you
more comfortable yeah yeah but they scrapped
it for who knows why but you're right like i
don't i'm not sure there's a part where because
it was too on the nose that's why that's a lot
of these ideas that they scrapped because they're
too on the nose i think um Some of them they
keep, even though they're on the nose, like the
10 -year -old girls and the alien that's based
off of the 10 -year -old boy. I don't know if
that feels... It's not on the nose unless you
have a really weird conspiratorial vision of
this movie as being creepy or sinister in some
ways. It's just not something that would enter
anyone's mind, watching this movie, because it
is very successfully on its face, just like...
Optimistic. Optimistic. And it applauds this
guy for leaving his family and making out with
this girl. Maybe that's a thing. It applauds
him for all of his bad decisions because America
applauds you for this. You know what I mean?
It's because you're becoming a drone for corporate
America. The other thing that's interesting,
too, is I think Spielberg comes off as really
sincere and a really nice guy. He doesn't honestly
come off as someone that's super intellectual,
even. He just seems like a really nice guy. Will
Manor, like, he kind of seems like a kid himself
sometimes. He's just very, like, he always seems
turned on, like a kid is. He always just seems
very, like, oh, yeah, that's cool. Oh, yeah,
yeah. Like, he's always just, like, very affirmative,
it seems, and stuff. And I don't know how he
actually is, but this is the way he's present.
That's, like, the way he always comes off. And
he just does not seem like a cynical guy to me.
He really doesn't. And that also just makes it
really easy to, like, not have that reading on
any of these movies, just assume that they're
all optimistic. And so, like, you could say that...
The thing is, I kind of feel like, depending
on how you look at this movie, if you look at
the optimistic... Part of it is him trying to
empathize with this main character. Yeah. Part
of it is him trying to understand why his dad
left and empathize with it. Exactly. Yeah, yeah.
Part of me is trying to do that and make sense
of this thing that his dad did that doesn't make
sense. What did his dad do? His dad worked for
IBM. Yeah. Let's not get into that yet. His dad
worked for the Dollar Eye Pyramid. That's what
his dad did. Yeah, yeah, I know. His dad worked
for, yeah. His dad helped out some evil people.
His dad sold out to the people that killed his
people. Basically, yes. That's, yep. So hold
that in your back pocket for a minute. If you're
going to assume if you're going to take it for
face value, going back to those saying and that
this is kind of an optimistic and empathetic
exploration of, you know, why someone needs to
move on or why someone needs to, like, chase
their dreams and over any kind of materialistic
responsibilities they have and that you're going
to hurt people in your life to chase your dreams,
become an artist. This is something he also explores
in the fablements. And so, like, if you see it
as that, it's pretty easy to understand why Spielberg
would be disappointed now because he'd look back
and just be like, you know what, I tried to empathize
with that thing, but you know what, it's not
right. Like, there's no good reason for me to
leave my family. There's no good reason for him
to do that. And maybe he, like, wasn't a good
person. Maybe he doesn't need to be free. And
I think if you look at the Fabelmans, neither
of his parents are portrayed as good people.
I mean, maybe they're not bad people, but they're...
They're fucked up, man. They're fucked up kind
of monsters. Yeah. His dad is barely a person,
and his mom is similarly like— Too much of a
person. So much. Too many people. Yeah, she's
the manic pixie, you know, to the max. So, like,
obviously he looks back and he's like, well,
that wasn't it. That wasn't the right message,
you know? Like, if I made this movie now— he
would have to bring his family with him, make
them understand, or he would have to, like, turn
away from his dreams in order to be with his
family. Maybe part of the point would have to
be the banality of this guy would need to be
underlined more. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Just like
in the Fablemans, like, his father is portrayed
as a totally banal, Eichmann -esque, nothing
character. He can totally understand every, absolutely
why his mom would cheat on this guy. Even if
he's nice, he sucks so much he's not a real person.
But in Close Encounters, you're right that this
guy doesn't have a dream of his own. It was given
to him. So that is an interesting distinction.
He's a blue -collar worker. He's like an electrician.
He didn't fucking shoot for his dreams, whatever
they might have been. And maybe that's what he's
dealing with, too, is the regret of not doing
that and the idea that it's maybe not too late
and whatever. Well, he's an engineer, though.
You say he's a blue -collar worker, but he's
working for the power company in some sort of
engineering capacity. He's going out there to
restore power because it's all going out. That's
not that far from what his dad's doing, right?
You know what I mean? Actually, his job is...
If it all was a metaphor for just joining the
state and doing computer work or whatever, I
guess he is kind of somewhere along that chain.
He's working on power. He's working on electricity
and circuits and systems that hold the grid together
and all this stuff. Right. He's working on the
grid completely. And he's a component of it.
His job is to hold together the grid. And he
got fired with no real explanation or conversation
the day after. for just like not showing up during
a crisis. That's how quickly you got cut out.
It's just a cog in the system. But I also do
think if we, if we go back to your kind of interpretation,
which hasn't been totally fleshed out yet, but
you sort of ended on this note of like, actually,
what are these aliens? What do they represent?
And like, they represent this kind of, if they
do represent the sort of corporate world, the
like materialist realm of power. Novus Ordum
Seclorum. Yes. But if they do represent that,
then. Spielberg looking back on that and being
like, yeah, I was more cynical then, and I made
a cynical movie about this guy getting absorbed
by the devil, basically. It's a tragedy. This
person was seduced, and they get taken in. And
I don't know if I would make a movie that cynical
anymore. I mean, if not the devil, at least a
false idol. Yeah, sure. Someone on Earth who
has... A bunch of children that they've abducted.
A false idol, yeah. Like something to believe
in because he doesn't believe in anything. He's
clearly godless and all that. There's very little
religion in this movie. There's only like one
scene. There's one, and that's the religion of
Walt Disney. What? There's one religion, and
that's the religion of Walt Disney. It's Pinocchio.
It's When You Wish Upon a Star. That's the American
religion. It's also really important that it
gets connected to that and that there actually
is an interpolation of When You Wish Upon a Star
in the soundtrack when he's entering the ship.
Not in the final director's cut, right? I'm pretty
sure. Oh, it's only in the special edition. I
went and I did the special edition, and it's
in the special edition when he's on the spaceship.
There's the When You Wish Upon a Star music cue.
Oh, it's on the spaceship. You're right. It's
not in the director. And it was not in any part
of the original version, at least in the director's
cut version. I don't know if it's in the theatrical
because I haven't watched the theatrical again.
But that music cue in the special edition where
it says When You Wish Upon a Star. I don't know,
man. I'm pretty sure that music cue is kind of
woven into the score when he's getting on the
ship. It's just much more subtle. That's cool.
That's cool. But I mean, he's not a guy who's
worked a ton with Disney properties, right? He
was Universal and Warner Brothers and Columbia.
I don't know. I thought it was strange that Spielberg
was referencing Disney. Is the BFG a Disney movie?
Is that a Disney movie? I don't know. Is it?
Yeah. I don't know, man. I don't... Either way,
neither of these movies are Disney movies. And
that's why it's strange to me that he would be
referencing Walt Disney's Pinocchio in a way
that even included a music cue and everything.
Yeah, and so if you're going to be... But then
what's crazy is that happened at the Disclosure
Day too. Oh, see, we're going to talk about this.
See, I'm trying to avoid this. Why'd you say
that? We will get around to it. We'll get there.
But I also think that Spielberg, as a Jew, might
have had a complex relationship with Walt Disney.
Of course, yeah. even if he's openly embracing
this we've talked about before in the fablemans
and in other episodes that he's often embracing
something putting it on a pedestal in a in a
way to kind of take it down or whatever and i
think that there's no more perfect thing than
when you wish upon a star to represent the disease
that that roy has you know what i mean i don't
know that this is an open you know uh embrace
of of sort of those ideas well although you know
like i mean hook was also using the Disney, Peter
Pan. Yeah, exactly. You're right, you're right,
yeah. There's a Disney -ness to Hook, but there
is also a weird sinister -ness to Hook. Yeah,
we kind of cover that too. So this is kind of
just getting highlighted more and more in his
movies. And yeah, you can either have a cynical
read or a more good faith one. That Spielberg
cares about kids for the right reasons and is
focused on childhood for the right reasons. And
not the wrong ones. But one of the things is
how much is intention? How much do you take Spielberg
at face value? Because one of the things that
we've covered about 2001 is that Kubrick often
deals with this idea of there's a cover story
and then there's a real... narrative underneath
this is kind of expressed with the literal cover
story that's happening in 2001 regarding the
right the chemical moon base the moon base is
like um quarantined right for some reason that's
not really true because of an outbreak some outbreaks
as quarantine this also happens in close encounters
right they say They say there's a fake outbreak
around Devil's Tower. Take power. And so this,
like, it seemed, and also, you know, obviously
Spielberg loved Kubrick. He didn't know Kubrick
at this time when he was making this movie, but
clearly was, you know, Kubrick was... He overtly
says in his doc about himself that he was trying
with Close Encounters to go further than Kubrick
went with 2001. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was trying
to take the next step. And so a lot of this is
like, that was his overt. A lot of this is built
on the ground of our analysis of these filmmakers.
But like, even at the age of 31, you seem to
be very convinced that Spielberg was already
working at a level that he still is now that
he already kind of arrived and he's always been
doing this. Like this was only his like third
or fourth movie. I think Jaws was before this.
I mean, it depends on where you start. Like if
you, if you just say like Jaws is his first big,
recognized movie this is a second and he already
had such a huge name at this point like this
was a movie that people were looking forward
to that had a lot of press and so that ties into
2001 as well like one thing i was thinking watching
close encounters this time like even like halfway
through the movie i was just like why should
i think this movie is about aliens what has this
movie shown me that gives me any inclination
to think it's about aliens You know why? Because
it's called Close Encounters of the Third Kind
and there's an alien ship on the front cover
and it's always been pushed as a movie about
aliens even before it initially came out. That's
just something you put in people's heads and
then they watch the movie. It's about aliens.
That's exactly what's happening with Disclosure
Day. There's new UFO movies coming out. Steven
Spielberg's making another alien movie. Spielberg
and aliens. He loves these guys. And I don't
really want to talk about all those other alien
movies right now, but I think like his other
alien movies reinforced the idea that like basically
none of his movies about aliens are about aliens.
They're about something else. Maybe Crystal Skull
is. Maybe Crystal Skull is. Maybe Crystal Skull
is. Yeah, exactly. I redid it recently and that's
a really, it's the same writer. It's the same
writer as Disclosure Day and War of the Worlds
and a bunch of them and Jurassic Park and shit.
David Cope. I think he's used as more of a tool
by Spielberg. But I agree. I think that at least
most of his movies about aliens are not about
aliens. And I think that if we're talking about
Crystal Skull, Spielberg, while he's making Crystal
Skull, he does one of these behind -the -scenes
Close Encounters things. And on that one is when
he's talking about, like, I used to believe in
this shit. I don't believe in this shit anymore.
Yeah. So, well, he's making Crystal Skull is
specifically when he's saying, like, I don't
believe in this shit anymore. So if Crystal Skull
is about aliens, it's about aliens in a way that
Spielberg doesn't believe in anymore. It's like
the most, like, 50s. But none of the other ones
are about aliens. It's like the most, like, 50s
pop culture, like, cereal box adventure vision
of aliens. I don't know. Yeah, no, but it's also,
it's researched. The thing about Crystal Skull
is it's researched. Just, it's exactly, it's
like Disclosure Day. It's like, these are all
real research incidents and whatever. Like any
of the Indiana Jones movies, too, and stuff.
It's like, oh, none of this is made up. Like,
literally nothing is made up for this movie.
And that's what's cool about it. It's all actual,
like, esoteric, like, occult kind of stuff. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just like Wikipedia deep dive
shit. Well, I think Spielberg understands that
stuff. You know that he's the type of guy that...
goes on those conspiracy theories. Like, you
know what I mean? If he's this into UFO shit,
like, and real UFO shit, like, he's also watching
2012 Project Blue Beam, End of the World, like,
whatever shit. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah,
yeah. He, like, he's into, because that pops
up in the same algorithm, too. But definitely
in Indiana Jones, but definitely in Close Encounters,
I would say. Yeah, yeah. I think that that's,
like we're talking about, you're saying, like,
what makes us think this is about aliens? Well,
like, Even in the behind -the -scenes stuff,
overtly, he says half of this is about aliens,
but the other half of this is about the government
and Watergate. And that, I think, is just as
much what that movie is about and what the aliens
actually are. Let's get into that. How do we
see it as a thing about Watergate? Well, I just
think the paranoid idea of the government. You
know what I mean? You can't trust them. Yeah.
That they're sneaky. They have spies. They're
going to come up with something like a fake virus
to, you know, wrest control away from the people
to shake hands with Satan in the middle of the
desert or something, you know? Yeah. Which is
what a lot of these movies are about. Indiana
Jones and Oppenheimer and whatever. So it's about
Israel. I do think it's really telling that the
organization that's trying to find the aliens
is basically the UN in collaboration with some
French scientists or something like that. Yeah,
well, I mean, these are kind of based on... What's
the scientist's name? Well, J. Allen Hynek, who
I wanted to get into as well. Yeah, who came
up with the Close Encounters name. Yeah, who
came up with the... Which I always, I always,
I think somebody told me the wrong thing when
I was a kid. Where I like asked, I'm sure I asked
my parents or something. Like what does Close
Encounters of the Third Kind mean? And they just
like made something up on the spot. That I just
thought was true my whole life. But it's like
the Close Encounter of the First Kind would be
talking to a person. And the Close Encounter
of the Second Kind would be talking to an animal.
And it literally wasn't until I was watching
the behind the scenes for this. And I was like,
Oh, that's totally not true. That's just something
that like, I probably asked too many questions
someday when I was five. And somebody just said
that some teacher or parent or something was
just like, here's your answer. This is why it's
important to be honest. Just like misinformation
for most of your life. Yes. No, a close encounter
of the first kind is like... It means visual.
It means you see something. You see some kind
of visual... Yeah, you see something. Second
kind is like communication. No, no, no. The second
one is physical evidence. The third one is contact.
Evidence. Okay. And the third one is actually
like... When you meet him, is how Spielberg said
it. When you meet him. Interesting way to put
it, too. I guess the other part... Going back
to the UN and the French thing, I guess I wasn't
looking enough into this stuff, but that is something
I thought was interesting that I didn't quite
have figured out. Why is this kind of a UN thing?
It's not the United States. I do think there
is something going on here, especially because
the first scene is them finding these planes
from 1945 out in the middle of the desert, and
they're like, how did they get here? What are
they doing here? And, um, I don't know. It's
just kind of like when you think about, I mean,
that's 45. So that's when the war ended. Right.
And not too long after that, you get the creation
of the CIA and the creation of Israel. And, um,
they are this thing out in the middle of the
desert. It's like, why is this here? You know?
Well, sure. Sure. And it's the start of, it is
the start of the, um, the birth of the deep state,
like CIA Mossad and, the beginning of this kind
of like domain of spies or whatever, that kind
of control things behind the scenes and that
they're the true international community. Like
they keep secrets from the FBI and whatever,
but I guess like it's, this is when you have
like really paranoid conspiracy movies coming
out and whatnot, like three days of the condor
and stuff where it's like all about just, yeah,
nobody, nobody trusts any of this anymore. And
yeah, there's a secret CIA inside the CIA. And
I don't know that Spielberg is pointing the finger
at Israel, and I just have to believe that Spielberg,
as he went through his career, learned a lot
more about the world and had a much more refined
view of it as opposed to when he made Jaws and
Close Encounters. I think that's true. I think
that a lot of Jaws is the result of improvising
during a car accident. Yeah, exactly. And I think
the Close Encounters, it's very clear that is
a lot of that as well. And I think that it was
very successful for him. These like huge things
that went way over budget and whatever, but then
exploded. So he did so well. But then, yeah,
after this comes 1941 stuff and it's less cute.
Yeah. So he ends up being a much tighter filmmaker.
Down the line. I'm sure, you know, Disclosure
Day, I don't think there were six months of improvising
what the alien might look like. No, sure. Disclosure
Day feels like planned out and they shot it.
It's all planned out and shot in like two weeks.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not his most ambitious
movie cinematically or anything. There is something
to be said for the alchemy that was being done
on the set of Close Encounters. A huge burning
of all of this wealth to create this movie. Watching
the behind the scenes, it really feels to me
like this is a decadent new Hollywood disaster
of so much money being spent for no reason. This
should be a low budget movie. The effects are
all just like lights coming through a door with
smoke. the ships with their halos they're explaining
like yeah well there's the halos through the
fog then there's also like a lens flare that
you get when there's no fog and that's overlaid
and then there's like a different type of lens
flare you get from like a different lens and
that's overlaid so it's like a bunch of different
types of overlaid and it's like yeah that's kind
of it's i like that i like that i mean dude it
looks really good it's It looks really cool.
Like, I agree. It looks really cool. I mean,
like, that stuff is, like, tech stuff that, like,
I do think matters. Like, I think he cares about
that stuff and that matters. Because all that
stuff is, like, it's the simple little things
where he's, like, I mean, in previous movies,
people would always know a special effects shot's
coming up because the grain would change. You
know, and he made sure that didn't happen in
this movie. You know, like, there's, like, a
lot of little things. Yeah, but that's, I mean,
Kubrick fixed that on 2001. Think of the movement
of the camera. I'm just saying that I understand
what you mean, but I also think the movie looks
great. I think all the special effects sets don't
look dated. They look good. I agree. I agree.
And that's because they look weird in a way that's
unique to them. But also tangible. They just
feel real in a way. Yeah, I agree. I agree. There's
nothing else really like it. It does not feel
dated. The car feels of its own. Gravity. It
doesn't necessarily feel real, but it feels convincing
like nothing else. Like, you know what I mean?
Like that alien, the robot alien head, like,
yeah, it doesn't look real, but that looks so
good. Like that looks so cool. i think like i
mean it's i agree you've said that like at the
same time like the the idea that they just like
had to get the biggest set in the world for this
landing strip yeah it's like what so that you
can just why don't you just go out to the desert
i don't like you've literally just got a bunch
of trailers out in the middle of the desert and
it's like well they needed to be able to control
the environment it's like for what like Just
for those little details, he was being really,
really... Yeah, for a couple of shots. No, they
really needed to control it so that they could
try all these things that they didn't end up
using. Yeah, exactly. The kids walking in fast
motion, like bumblebees buzzing around. They
wanted to experiment. All these different light
things and all these crazy experiments that none
of them went... If they knew what they were going
to do going into it, it's like, oh, you don't
need a stage for this. Let's just go shoot that
on location in the middle of the desert. And
it would cost a three -day... shoot. You know
what I mean? It seems pretty convincing that
that final sequence of Close Encounters is one
of the most difficult things Spielberg ever had
to create. It seems pretty obvious that they...
He didn't exactly know what was going to work
or what he needed. You know what I mean? That's
why. That's why it's difficult is because he
didn't know what he was doing going in. And that's
why so much money was spent in that set, I'm
sure. Like, they're burning huge amounts of money
every day just to, like, be like. well, I got
an idea. What if we try and sync this up this
way? All that stuff is important. Later, we'll
figure out from the footage what might work or
what might not. All this stuff is important,
though, because if you make a movie where you're
just like, okay, we have a budget and we need
to know what the budget's going to be, it's like,
well, use CGI because we know exactly how long
it takes to generate computer images, yada, yada,
yada. You can do it all out in this mathematical
way. But if you want to create a new special
effect, That's like R &D. You've got to do research
and development. That's the thing. I think that
the R &D that's done on the set of Close Encounters,
I'm sure, continued to pay off for the people
that were there. Do you know that the special
effects artist... I'm sure Spielberg learned
a lot of things on those weeks and weeks of kind
of wasting time, but also becoming a better director.
The special effects supervisor on Close Encounters
was Douglas Trumbull, who did... 2001 with Kubrick.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he invented that, like,
smoky water tank effect that they ended up using
in lots of movies after that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like in Ghostbusters, just the cloud effect.
He invented that for this movie. Apparently.
I mean, his technician did or something. Right.
So, yeah, I, like, earlier when I said there's
not really much religion in this movie and you
said, no, there is, the religion of Walt Disney.
I was just going to say that there is actually
like, as far as I can tell, there might be another
instance, but the only mention of religion in
this movie is near the end, all the people who
are going to go onto the ship with the aliens
in their orange jumpsuits are kind of read their
rights or something. Like there's a priest there
and they all kind of go in there to have like
this little religious ceremony before they go
on the ship. And I mean, maybe it's just the
kind of thing that like soldiers do before they
go to war, like that kind of thing. And he kind
of just like, in case something happens, let's.
pray or I don't know but I did think it was interesting
that like that was the only mention of it in
the movie and it's like very much connected to
the scientists but then I also wanted to get
into J. Allen Hynek because to keep doing this
2001 connection like I said about like why should
I think this movie is about aliens well a lot
of it's about the propaganda and about the like
narrative shaping that makes you go into the
movie and not be surprised right like this is
not a movie people go into being like what's
this about and then like the alien scene happened
right right I really like the inclusion of J.
Allen Hynek in this. And I didn't know who he
was when I was watching the movie. And during
the end scene, there's like a shot of him. He
like pops out in his blue suit and he's smoking
a pipe. And then it cuts away. He doesn't have
a line. He just shows up. And I'm just like,
what the fuck? Is he wearing, he's like, he's
an older man. He looks like Colonel Sanders or
something. He looks authoritative and he's wearing
glasses. Yeah, and he has a pipe. Yeah. I was
wondering. On my last viewing, who that was.
Me too. I was just like, who the fuck is that
guy? He looks like he's the one who's actually
in charge of everything. And it's not Truffaut.
It's actually this guy. That occurred to me when
I watched it last time. But he actually kind
of is the guy from real life, huh? Yeah. So J.
Allen Hynek was an astronomer, professor, and
a ufologist. How do you say that? Ufologist?
Ufologist? I guess. But he was involved in all
the, he was the scientific advisor to the U .S.
Air Force under the three UFO projects from like
the 40s to the 60s. So like the first one was
Project Sign from 47 to 49. The next one was
Project Grudge from 49 to 51. And then Project
Blue Book from 52 to 69. And so. He developed
the close encounter classification system, yada,
yada, yada. The thing that I think is important
about this character is that his narrative is
that he was a scientific man, a skeptic, who
became a believer. That his job for the U .S.
Air Force was mostly to discredit and debunk
and find the scientific explanations for these
miraculous events. The story is that he just
became more and more convinced by the more miraculous
explanations as time went on. And that when he
made close encounters, he was already a believer.
So he would have been seeing this whole thing
as a wish fulfillment. You know, like a, they're
really out there, let's make this movie that
tries to show a true vision of what it would
be like to meet the aliens. It is like Hynek's
propagandic vision of the reality that there
are actual beings out there that for some reason
they're interested in us and they can fly light
years. One of his observations when he was a
skeptic is just like, why would all these things
just be flying around here checking us out? You
know what I mean? All these different looking
things. I don't know. Maybe there's something
I don't understand, but there just seems to be
a fallacy at the core of this of just like, why
the hell would this even be happening in the
first place at all? What would be the goal or
intent or interest? Writers have bent over backwards
to find plenty of motives for why aliens would
be here. But if you're looking at physics, what
we understand to be the laws of physics. If you
look at South America, thousands of people disappear
every day. And you know where they go? The past.
You got it. UFOs that are really... That's right.
Time machines, yeah. Time machines. Well, yeah,
that's the idea, though. To me, part of the thing
is the idea of disappearing people being connected
to this is interesting. No, no, I think the idea
of disappearing people is connected for sure.
And obviously we know that now that there are
definitely crazy human trafficking rings all
over the place and that the elite are involved
in them. And that some of them involve children.
A lot of them do, you know, women and children.
It makes it stranger that there is this one giant,
you know, Pinocchio puppet guy and then just,
yeah, a bunch of 10 -year -old girls and a robot
boy that's also a 10 -year -old boy. A robot
boy. That makes that strange that there's all
this weird government conspiracy surrounding
that. There is another Spielberg movie about
a robot boy with a Pinocchio complex, isn't there?
Yeah. Anyway, so I kind of see this thing as,
like, about Hynek is, like, the way Spielberg
describes this in his narrative is almost like,
well, Spielberg describes himself as being someone
who went the opposite direction, right? Like,
I was a believer who became a skeptic. Right.
And his reasoning for becoming a skeptic is basically,
like, yeah, ever since cell phones could take
videos and, like, there's not any. good evidence
which is like but he's he's gone a little bit
back and forth on it in the more recent press
tour thing is man now he's been talking more
just like yeah i believe in a higher thing and
whatever even in close encounters I forget what
the scene is, but there's a journalist who says,
like, photographs are being taken everywhere
all the time. Like, how would these not have
been photographed by now? Like, that's something
that's, like, brought up. And he says, we've
never been able to take a picture of a car crash
as it happens. Exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or
a plane crash. Yeah, which is good. He's like,
yeah, but now we can. Yeah, but now we can. We
see that all the time. Exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You have to turn that off to avoid it in your
feed, so. Also, the Cotopaxi was found in 2020.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was found in the 80s,
right? It was identified. Yeah. But those five
planes from 45 are still missing. So I like this
thing of like J. Allen Hynek was going one way
and Spielberg was going the other way. But there's
this other part of the story where like this
writer named John French wrote about how this
entire narrative about Hynek is just not true.
That like he's always been a believer and that
this was just a narrative that got created to...
legitimize UFOs as a narrative. Okay. And so
if Jayon Hynek was never a skeptic, what if Spielberg
was never a believer and that's his narrative?
That would lend a lot of credit to him being
like way more cynical and deeply thought through
when it comes to this movie. Right. And just
connects to Kubrick and the cover stories and
the promo and all this stuff. Right. And the
fact that J. Allen Hynek is the UFO expert, quote
unquote, who was brought onto the movie to give
Spielberg all the information about UFOs, right?
Very 2001, very interstellar, very, you know.
Right. So... He's basically the modern version
of, yeah, Wernher von Braun. Exactly. Helping
out Kubrick. Yeah. Interesting. There's a lot
here, and I think more is going to come up as
we get into Disclosure Day. So do you want to
move on to that? Well, yeah, but there's the
other part of it that I really dig. What's happening
in the very end during the actual encounter,
I just think it's like we've been talking a lot
about this being a conversation of Spielberg's
father. leaving and whatnot. But I also feel
like this is Spielberg talking about himself.
And I think that the idea that the way that you
talk to these aliens is through, you know, light
and music. Or the way that they speak to us is
through light and music. And that sort of thing
I think is very interesting because that to me,
that connects to the idea of what Spielberg is
doing as his career for, yeah, the Dollar Eye
Pyramid. You know? You trying to make a case
that he's, like, working for the government?
That he creates propaganda for them or something?
Well, I think that it's interesting to choose
Truffaut to be this sort of government guy. Yeah,
definitely. Because, I mean, obviously there's
the French New Wave -ness of, you know, the politics
of that side of things and whatnot not being,
you know. g -men sort of people but it's also
just like the truffaut is such a kind soul seemingly
or at least like you know what i mean um his
movies are so empathetic there's something extremely
soft about it um and goofy and there's something
that i think spielberg admires in that but i
also feel like he's like a spielberg presence
in this movie or at least something that spielberg
aspires to that's why that's why he chose him
yeah for sure yeah he's putting him in a position
earlier i mean he's putting him in a position
kind of like kubrick puts that lookalike in the
position in in the in the moon base sequence
he's taking the photos who's also the propagandist
for the government like you know what i mean
he's he's putting the the filmmaker director
guy here who's talking to ufos and whatever There's
some weird resonance there. It's like Spielberg
has to be the one to deliver the message. I mean,
honestly, I saw Bob Balaban as the Spielberg
with his baseball cap and his beard. He's the
one who kind of looks the most like Spielberg.
And he's the translator. He's the one who has
to translate between the government and Truffaut
and the natives and Truffaut. It's funny. I can
even hear his accent. I can barely speak French
and I can still be like, oh, Bob Barabian has
an American accent. He cannot speak French fluently.
Which is funny. And then Truffaut couldn't speak
English. His lines actually are pretty hard to
understand. I had to rewind to get that one line
where he's like, it is an event sociological.
Yeah, it's the best. I love that line. It's an
event sociological. Yeah, so I mean, I think
including Truffaut makes it... very connected
to a conversation about filmmaking as well and
what filmmaking is and maybe there is this kind
of passing of the torch from true foe to a much
more sticky hard to navigate and keep your morals
kind of environment that spielberg is now you
know has the dominion of and uh is he the right
person for the job can he continue to put the
right things out there? Or is he kind of just,
like, putting the wrong things out there? And
it's hard to say, man. It is. Well, to me, it's
interesting because there's a big part of this
movie that you could kind of say is connected
to, like, predictive programming. Sure, yeah.
And MKUltra, like you said, and just, like, all
those kind of secret 50s... What do you call
this? The study of, like, parapsychology? That
kind of stuff? Yeah, yeah, yeah, like the Jedi
Knights and whatever. Hynek was into that shit.
The ministeric goats. What if they did figure
out parapsychology and we're all living in the
movie they created? That kind of thing. Like,
they just have the knowledge. They figured it
out, and that's why they get to control us, and
they just keep it hidden from us. Whatever the
truth is, whatever the secret, that secret is
what's going to give you power, and they're definitely
afraid of people having that secret. That's,
like, the absolute vibe I get from Disclosure
Day as well. Oh, sure. Disclosure Day, I think,
continues a lot of this conspiracy theory vibe
stuff and many steric goat stuff to an extreme.
Yeah. But I think it like completely already
is there in Close Encounters of the Third Kind,
which is a movie about somebody having a 180
degree like stopping caring about their family
and leaving, which like. Also, like, is just
a baby boomer, right? Like, it is just sort of
like the hippie movement or at least the self
-improvement movement or whatever, which is also
where the ministerial government stuff all comes
out of and whatnot. It's all new around that
time. I would argue that he was already that
before he gets the idea, though. You know, before
the aliens beam him or whatever. He seems very
just like he doesn't want to help us some of
this homework. He doesn't like he just wants
to play with his toy trains. He wants to bring
everyone to see Pinocchio. That's because he's
already American and his religion is Pinocchio
and whatnot. But that's like. something that
then can be switched on in him that can allow,
like, it's all about the like predictive program.
Yeah. Like the media that he's been fed his entire
life. So when the moment comes that you need
to be turned on, like the mentoring candidate.
Yeah, I got you. Exactly. And like, if you, that
monarch slave sort of thing, that idea that's
been around, that's, you know, the, there's no
place like home thing. I don't know. There's,
there's, This is in a lot of Spielberg's movies,
but there's the Wizard of Oz, Monarch, Slavery,
MKUltra, you know, look up those phrases on Google
and they're like connected to this shit. Yeah.
Scary stuff to consider. But let's take a break
and move on to Disclosure Day and we can keep
like talking about just both of them together.
Sounds good. Sounds good. Well, I guess you've
noticed something with the little stream of the
dead. It's okay. I'm still there. I can't describe
it, what I'm feeling. Why do you walk? I just
want to know that it's really happening. Cool,
cool, cool. All right, back from the break. Really
enjoy talking about Spielberg. It's exciting
to find more meaning and longevity and permanence
and importance to all these projects that were
the things that initially got me into movies.
And man, he's really just taken us on a journey.
Especially if the stuff we're gleaning from these
movies is what we're supposed to. It feels like
it's very important that you find things on your
own that you're not told. And I think that's
a big part of Disclosure Day and Spielberg's
philosophy. We kind of talked to him as being
sort of an improviser. You've also talked about
how he doesn't really make storyboards a lot
of the time. He will kind of show up to set and
look at the location and be like, okay, we should
put the camera here and we'll do this. He's capable
of creating a vision, and then that vision tells
him what he needs to do in the moment. Even if
he doesn't totally understand it, I really do
think Spielberg is a guy working on a level where
he is becoming an antenna to God or something.
He's becoming an antenna to something spiritual
that he doesn't fully understand, but he trusts
in it and follows it. I just find that that's
probably the philosophy he has based on everything
we know about the way he works and the filmmakers
he aspires to. or like the time period of filmmaking,
the style of filmmaking that he was inspired
by. You know, just like talking about him like
he is a new Hollywood filmmaker, like he is one
of these filmmakers who really was trying to
make art in the way that the filmmakers of the
60s did, but do it in this technically seductive
way. Makes him more like a Bertolucci than it
does a Godard or whatever. But I really see this
in the character of Margaret Fairchild. Definitely.
It's so crazy that this comes after The Fablemans
and Ready Player One. I know that West Side Story
is thrown in there, too. And there might be more
significance to that than I'm realizing. But
these movies just feel so end of career. I'm
giving you guys my parting words. Talking about
what my career has been, especially starting
with Ready Player One. Yeah, I felt like Ready
Player One could have been his last movie. And
then he made The Fablemans. It's like, oh, well,
no, this is your last movie. And now this is
even more. Oh, actually, no, this is it. This
is the movie that ties back to Close Encounters
and the beginning of his career and tracks the
change in him over his life, I think. There might
be a more cynical read, but I just don't believe
that Spielberg would make Close Encounters again
for no reason. It's very clear that this is a
spiritual successor and it has so many of the
same kinds of sequences and there's so many things
that rhyme and there's a lot of mirrors and stuff
like that. But I don't think it's saying the
same thing. No, I don't think so either. I think
it's closer in its conversation to... something
like War of the Worlds or something, than it
is even to the conversation in Close Encounters.
Yeah, and I think we're trying to give Spielberg
a lot of credit, even at his young age, that
maybe the aliens in Close Encounters really do
represent something. Well, he claims now that
he absolutely did believe back then. Now, if
he's talking about believing in aliens, maybe
that's what he's talking about. Or if he's talking
about believing in the corporate America that
he was being seduced by and becoming sort of
a spokesperson for through light and music and
whatnot, then it's that. You know what I mean?
Yeah, but I also think he has embraced light
and music, and I don't think... He believes that
light and music, art, technology, I don't think
he believes these things are inherently evil.
I, as an artist and a person who uses technology
to make my art, can't believe that either. I
like to believe that these are just tools. It's
a spectacle, though. It's a tool. It's a spectacle,
but it's for a purpose. Yeah, it's a spectacle,
but it's for a purpose. Purpose is communication.
The technology can create more and more. effective
ways of communicating essentially right and all
these technologies and even art can also be like
described in mathematics i think is something
that's very important too because music can be
broken down to numbers and mathematics for sure
if you're confused about this watch donald and
math magic land yeah that's a formative great
it's a great uh disney cartoon about pythagoras
and uh freemasonry Not for sure, but yeah, so
I ultimately like to believe that these things
are tools. I ultimately agree with you that these
things, when left to kind of amorally develop
on their own terms because of materialistic goals,
it can become a tool of evil. It can become a
tool of propaganda and all this kind of stuff.
But like, I guess the point is like propaganda
can be used for good theoretically. And like
if Spielberg is like putting a good message out
there, then that's not a bad thing in my opinion
or whatever. But it seems to me like Spielberg
doesn't exactly put the message that he wants
you to hear up front. You know, like it feels
like the message that you're supposed to get
out of the movie is something that. you have
to work for a little bit. It's not just like
given to you. You have to kind of like think
about the movie. And honestly, he's made the
access points easier and easier. Like his movies
are so much less seductive now. So they almost
become surreal and beg for interpretation. Like
for one thing, like while I was watching disclosure
day, I have to say I was absolutely bewildered.
Like I had no idea what the fuck was going on
the entire movie. And I found the plot to be
like incoherent. And it's like the most like
lazy movie as far as like, well, she just like
knows where she needs to go because it's in her
head. Like it's just all this kind of stuff where
it's like all this stuff would be considered
kind of the most like lazy writing trips or whatever.
And I'm just like, okay, so eventually you're
going to explain. It's not the type of movie
that I would take seriously by somebody else
enough to find anything. Exactly. That, I think,
is part of the thing. Like Tenet, too. If this
was a no -name person making this movie, I would
kind of be like, okay, well, this is lazy and
it's probably not about anything. But it's very
different when a person... who is Spielberg,
is making a movie that's talking about the things
that this movie is talking about. A large part
of this is what the metatextual stuff adds to
the movie and allows you to find within the movie.
But what I was going to say is that the entire
movie I was bewildered and confused, and I can't
even say I was actually loving it because I was
really alienated. It just felt like one of the
clunkiest Spielberg movies in a while. Definitely
not like a return to his kind of Jurassic Park
vibe or like the kind of thing it's being pitched
as. It feels much more like the movies he's been
making the past five years. It feels a lot to
me like The Post. Yeah, exactly. Where it's about
just like a release of, you know, hidden government
information. And the action scenes and stuff
feel really like pointless. Perfunctory. Profunctory,
yeah, exactly. Yeah, dude, like that train sequence
where the car, like it's like, why is this even,
this isn't even the type of movie where this
happens. It feels like, it's like if you put
this train sequence in the middle of The Post.
Or even Close Encounters, man. Yeah, exactly.
It felt, yeah, I agree. And I felt similarly
about some of the action sequences in my rewatch
of Crystal Skull. Yeah, yeah, they're really
perfunctory and like, They're not his best action
scenes either because they also... They don't
feel like it's what he's interested in. Yeah,
it doesn't feel like what he's interested in.
They don't feel like he's interested in the action
scenes. They feel like he's doing them as a like,
I guess this is the scene where, okay, you're
doing this. It's the spectacle, man. Instead,
it's like interesting for some sort of other
reason or something other than the action. I'm
surprised people are responding to it so well
because... It is not. Well, I think that's what
we're talking about right now is the people who
have seen it in the first day that it's been
out. Exactly. People are going to turn against
the people who are responding to it. Well, maybe
I don't see this becoming a super successful.
spielberg movie i think it'd be really interesting
if it was i've been shocked by the types of things
that have become successes in recent times so
well like backgrounds you know things like poor
things winning best picture or something like
is you know insane yeah well i mean back rooms
yeah no that doesn't really surprise me that's
uh but um yeah i think you're right that like
i haven't seen um back rooms i know you have
but i would imagine that like disclosure day
coming out like The Week After by Spielberg.
I feel like for most people, it's just not going
to read as a movie of the moment. It's going
to read as an out -of -touch boomer sentiment
or something. Yeah, I think partly it does feel
like an old -fashioned conversation. It doesn't
feel to me like the conversation of the moment,
even though it is trying to be. Well, I think
it is very much about the moment, ultimately.
But we'll get there. No, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.
But I think that it's... It's the understanding
of a boomer of the current moment that I don't
know that he is completely in touch with or has
the same sort of status in that he used to. No,
he doesn't. Basically, he's not the guy who can
actually deliver the message, and people have
not caught on to what he's doing, and they just
see him as being this overly sentimental boomer
who has a very simple, happy, rich guy view of
the world or whatever. Because another thing
I like, like I said, while I was watching this
movie, I honestly like wasn't enthralled by it.
I found it to be like kind of boring and like,
yeah, not action packed, not a lot of movement,
a lot of scenes where characters talk, but like
it doesn't feel natural. The dialogue's pretty
clunky and it feels like everything is actually
like very upfront. Like the whole entire sequence
where basically he shows Jane the truth, like
he shows her the videos of the Martians. The
first thing I thought was like, huh, he just
went with little green men, huh? Why would he
do that? You know, it's just like it's not a
thing that's going to wow anybody. It's just
going to be like, oh, like this is a fucking
50s alien thing. Like, what the fuck? You know
what I mean? Well, that's because all of the
stuff that he's using is just real eyewitness
testimony stuff and real. He didn't make up anything
for this movie. Like all the examples of alien
things. Yeah, yeah. These ideas are all out there.
All these things are at least rumored or some
documented story or narrative or whatever it
is. It's all part of the archives because he
is interested in UFO archives. The actor who
played Daniel on the press tour said that he
got into UFO stuff on this movie and would share
some piece of information he learned excitedly
to Spielberg. And Spielberg would just be like,
yeah, I know. Yeah. That's the reason it's like
Nixon showed Jackie Gleason the bodies of the...
Nixon and Gleason. Every single one of these
incidents are known incidents that you can look
up on Wikipedia or whatever and find stuff. It's
an exaggeration of something we know because
all we know about Gleason is that he was just
a guy who was very interested in UFOs. was pals
with Nixon, so Nixon... He was rumored to have
been... He's rumored to have shown Gleeson UFO
files and then was inspired or pressured by Gleeson
to release some of them publicly or whatever.
That's that story. But, like, it's then turned
into this, like, heightened thing where, like,
Gleeson is literally being shown the bodies of
Martians in a morgue, which doesn't connect with
what Daniel says moments later. Because he says
that presidents have become civilians themselves,
like they're in the dark about all this. But
maybe he just means that... Yeah, yeah, but that's
since then. Since then, yeah. Since 70... I forget
what year he says, but he says since then his
organization was created. Since 77, probably.
Or 76, since Watergate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And
after that, they were kind of the secret CIA
within the CIA until he saw these torture videos
is when he decided to... go rogue well that's
the other thing like what is ward x and i don't
think spielberg is trying to specifically say
they are any specific thing but i do think they
basically represent the cia and massad and israel
and palantir and palantir sure all the data collection
yeah and the mapping out and the invasion of
privacy and what is her powers in this movie
the power that she just like knows things about
everyone yeah she knows things that you could
totally find through like a recording of their
tv or their cell phone or anything and the type
of thing that palantir could have an ai program
totally interpret and tell you to say like already
like everything in this movie actually that's
the thing that like really stood out to me on
on rewatch is like remember how in ai kubrick
and spielberg's ai artificial intelligence he's
he's talking to the computer and he has to like
reframe his question in all these different ways
to get the ai program to respond to him in the
right way and that really feels like somebody
who like actually had interacted with modern
ai like it's like that's that is it weirdly feel
and and you know minority report has that thing
with the touch screens and stuff i feel like
we're gonna feel that way about her powers that
her powers in this are something that like spielberg
is you know depicting here but There's nothing
actually that her powers have that an AI program
that has access to like Palantir's database wouldn't
have. Sure. Like they know what's going on this
morning with you, why you're upset, where you've
come from, where you've gone, whatever. And sure,
up until this point, we haven't had the ability
to interpret that data in any sort of meaningful
way or even download that data. But like now
at this point, like there is something that is
out there that could do every single thing that
we're talking about being the superpowers in
this movie Disclosure Day. And that's something
that came out in the past couple of years. That
she's in conversation with an AI model that's
telling her where to go and what to do because
it can see everything. Well, that at least, yeah,
whatever's feeding her information or whatever.
That's not information that nobody would have
access to except for the Lord. It used to be.
It used to be something like that sort of supreme
being used to be the type of thing that only
existed in the Bible or whatever. But like now
you want to show people actual supreme beings
and like. Now I see that. I can totally see how
that could all be a metaphor for AI. But I do
think. And Satan. Just like I would say Close
Encounters and a lot of other things you've been
talking about. That, yeah, AI and Satan. You
think both movies are saying the same thing then,
ultimately? Well, I don't know that Close Encounters
is necessarily about AI. I think that there is
a... Well, no, not AI, but it's just another
version of the same thing. The thing that's trying
to consolidate power and control over our reality
or whatever. The aliens? No, AI. And you think
the aliens are a metaphor for AI. Well, I think
that all of the things that the aliens accomplish
in this movie are things that... are accomplishable
by AI at this point, except for talking to people
inside their heads, which may or may not be accomplishable
by technology at this point. It depends on what
type of conspiracy videos you watch on the internet.
But other than that, and actually, I'm sorry,
and the making people invisible thing. Both of
those are things that come from this piece of
alien technology, but a lot of this other stuff
that's not connected to the MacGuffin device,
all of the other stuff is kind of achievable
just through modern AI. Maybe. Interpreting large
amounts of data sets that are constantly being
recorded all the time and whatever, that there
is somebody watching and they could be like,
without even knowing anything about you, just
know the thing they say that is like... The best
one is... She says, Duncan is a very good boy.
And like, he needs you there tomorrow, even if
he can't say it. I think that's about his dog.
That just makes it so sad to me. I don't know,
because it's a very good boy. What type of a
thing is that to say to somebody about a person?
No, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, you're leaving
your... Well, this guy runs this TV studio, so
he has a dog at home. That's how he turns over
the whole news floor to her, is because she knew
about his dog, who's sick, I guess, or something.
And I suppose that's something AI could theoretically
know. The thing is, I just don't... believe that
AI is something that can actually be empathetic
and use that information in a way that convinces
people like I think that would be the really
cynical read is that AI can get to a point where
it can trick people that way where it knows every
intimate detail and therefore can seduce you
and like make you believe that you're dealing
with a god essentially that needs to be obeyed
it's like how could you know this like something
that people say constantly is why am I doing
this in the movie why am i doing this why am
i doing this right because they've been bewildered
into doing it yeah yeah they don't actually know
why they cannot explain how this thing came to
them you know like it's just i can't ignore this
people have a drive to want to believe and have
faith and like be ready at the moment when like
the miracle happens you know to like answer the
call essentially right thing is like i think
spielberg makes a point to have AI mentioned
in this movie only once and it's only the bad
guys who mentioned it. It's one of the techs
say like, I'm going to feed it to the AI model
and we'll get a location or something like that.
It's like they're using AI, but like their AI
is like this crude clunky thing that can only
create approximate answers. You know, but then
there's this secret hidden technology thing that
is an alien technology. Yeah, it's an alien technology,
theoretically. But if we know that the aliens
aren't aliens in Spielberg movies, then what
type of technology is it, is the question. Well,
here's what I thought. Because the movie ended,
she said, listen. And I was totally just confused.
I was like, it really didn't land for me. And
then I got in my car and started driving and
was just thinking. And after 30 minutes, something
just kind of clicked for me. And it's a very
positive read in the movie. I think the aliens
just represent God, honestly. To me, this movie
is saying the opposite thing as Close Encounters.
I think Close Encounters is a movie where all
the methods of connection and communication have
been hijacked by a demon that takes... a banal
man who is already broken away from his family
and probably destroys them further. Whereas in
this movie, you have the world that happened,
the world that came into being after Close Encounters
in real life, like that's 1977. The years went
on, and what we found is that the values expressed
in Close Encounters are actually held by a lot
of people. And these values of family are not
as valued. These values of... There's not a lot
of faith. There's not a lot of... Right, but
there is the sort of self -improvement LSD, go
out on your own and find yourself thing. That
thing is still popular. It's very ego -driven.
That thing has survived from the 70s to the 80s
to the 90s to today. Yeah, it's very, very ego
-driven, I think. This materialist thing, this
thing of I need to find myself. Take ayahuasca
in the desert. I need to find myself. I need
to go on my journey. It's very ego -driven, and
it's about going in. and not connecting with
others. It's about putting yourself first and
you're scared. Yeah, it's about putting yourself
first. And so at the beginning of Disclosure
Day, I think what we're introduced to is a perfect
mirror of the characters in Close Encounters
because in this one you have Margaret Fairchild,
a woman. She's the mirror of Roy in Close Encounters.
She's the one who's hearing the voices and she
doesn't understand what's happening, but she
has to follow this thing. And then her boyfriend.
She's the one whose significant other is annoyed
with her and leaves. And her boyfriend is the
wife. But the difference is there's no kids here.
This is a world in which she's a career woman
who's trying to go up the ranks and become an
anchor. And her boyfriend wants to be like a
famous musician in Kansas City. They're all,
it's all ego. It's all ego that is, like, keeping
them from building a family, from actually wanting
to be around one another. Because you find out
later that, like, he's just going to stay there
if she leaves. Like, he's perfectly happy to
end the relationship for his own personal goals.
And I think what you're being shown here is,
like, well, this is not, like, a thing that's
working out. Like, I mean, I know that in Close
Encounters, like, he's a kid and she's bitching
and it's, like, doesn't really look like it's
working out. But clearly he's the problem. And
that's evident to his kids. too like it's not
just the wife so it's like clearly he's the problem
and he's like destroying this family but in in
disclosure day it's like what do these two really
have like she just wants to like chase her career
he just wants to chase his career the relationship's
not a priority yeah but at the same time no no
no they've moved a bunch of times recently And
she just finished wallpapering this room in this
rented apartment. She wants to move again to
another city for no reason. There is a setup
that she is doing kind of a similar thing to
Roy in Close Encounters and just dragging him
along with her. And yeah, he's fed up at this
point. He's like, if you're going, then I'm staying.
It's going to be a conversation they're going
to have or whatever. that they don't end up having
to have because she just intuits it. I'm not
saying it's, like, all his fault or all her fault
in this situation. I think, like, it's different
than Close Encounters because in that movie it
definitely seems like Roy is the problem, and
in this movie it kind of just seems like it is.
Like, they all have the Disney disease. They
all have the—they're all chasing their dreams
now. In the other one, it's like, oh, I'm expected
to be a family man, and I'm supposed to, like,
take care of these kids. I work like a— you know,
sustainable blue collar job. And like, I can
have a middle -class life and buy Nikes and get
McDonald's. Like, what's wrong with that? And
then like, in this one, it's kind of like, you're
supposed to, you know, follow your career and
like, kids aren't really that important. That
shouldn't be your priority. Like these, these
aren't, these are, these are two people. He never
mentions kids. Like that would have been an important
thing to do in the movie if it was important,
but he never says something like, Oh, like I
just always wanted to have kids and you don't
want to have kids or something like that's not
there. It's just like, yeah, he followed her,
he followed her. But the only reason he followed
her is because he had nothing going on. And now
that he's starting to blow up in Kansas City,
he doesn't want to follow her anymore. That's
like what's happening. She's jumping from place
to place. He just said that he's got two nights
at a bar where he's working. Yeah, but that's
him arguing. He's not blowing up. He's just being
like, look, we settled in. We finally moved a
bunch of places and whatever. I don't feel like
restarting again and trying to find another place
to then convince to give me enough days that
I can work. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, it's
kind of unreasonable to keep moving. I don't
know that it's so much ego as it is just sort
of like, to me, it's established that he's already
sort of followed her to here. for her anchor
job thing and whatever, which she can. Yeah.
I mean, I might've used the wrong terminology
blowing up, but like it is explicitly stated
that there's like a reason he wants to stay here
and not move anymore. And that reason is because
like, I like it here. Some things are going well
for me. Right. Right. Yeah. And like, love's
hard. Relationships are hard. You try to be a
good partner and you try to find balances or
whatever. And yeah, I get it. Like, but I just
think it's a very, very like modern thing to,
be like that's not a priority like i come first
and if things are like too hard for you and they're
making it too hard for you it doesn't matter
how much you love them like you can leave them
behind whereas like previous generations would
have just been like no you stay with them you
have kids you make a family like that's what's
important yeah yeah that's a that's a zeitgeist
thing This is a very Zeitgeist II movie in general,
and that's a Zeitgeist II relationship, definitely.
Yeah, and it's a role reversal where he literally
says, I think I'm taking this pretty cool right
now, which is the same thing that his wife in
Close Encounter says. Don't you think I'm taking
this really well? I remember when we used to
cuddle here, and we used to have love, and it
was nice. Right, right. But anyway, so there
are these mirrors, and then obviously Daniel
is the mirror of the woman. In Close Encounters,
he loses her child. Right. And so I think it's
interesting that in Close Encounters, you have
a man who leaves his family, leaves his children,
is a child, who then goes onto this ship filled
with children. And then Jillian, the only reason
she's there is because she wants to get a kid
back. And she does, and she doesn't go on the
ship. Right. The thing that's important to her
is this child. And the dad is out of the picture,
so it's like, She is in a situation where the
father is gone for some reason. She can probably
understand that he is the guy who's running out
of his family too. I don't know. It's weird.
It's just like there's a lot of trauma here.
There's a lot of trauma in these situations as
well. And that's all on disclosure day as well.
So Margaret has childhood trauma. Her father
had Parkinson's. He died when she was a teenager
when he was 47, no less. She has like a meltdown
in the train car where she's surrounded by pianos.
Yeah, that's what grounds both of them, the math
and the emotion, right? He and she both put their
hands on the thing and feel the vibrations. It's
logic and empathy. So he's the man and he's all
language without knowledge. And she's empathy,
which is all knowledge without language. I mean,
I thought it was the tree of life and tree of
knowledge from the Kabbalah. I mean, it's both.
They're also Adam and Eve. He's the tree of knowledge.
She's the tree of life. But these aren't perfect
corollaries because, like, Jane, Daniel's girlfriend
or whatever they're bringing along, she's the
one who gets possessed by the devil, essentially.
She's, like, she's the Christian believer who's
kind of, like, fallen out of belief who, like,
then is able to be... So why do you think he's
the devil? Well, I'm just saying they're the
organization that is hiding the truth from everybody.
Are they? I can get to that later. What I'm trying
to say is now, her real name is Eve. She's actually
Bona's daughter. She's Eve Hewson. And it's just
interesting that her real name is Eve and that
she's the one that's susceptible. To, like, the
tech demon, essentially. Like, the tech being
used in a nefarious way to, like, get inside
her head and, like, extract information from
her. And then she becomes something that can't
be trusted. And then she, like, specifically
uses her cross to, like, stigmata herself to,
like, make the devil get out of her momentarily
and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, pain. Physical
pain. Yeah, yeah. Self -mutilation. Exactly.
Is a strength in getting the devil out. I thought
that was interesting. But to me it's significant
at this point to point out whether or not the
devil here is on the alien side or not. And I
think that he is on the alien side. I don't.
I'm going to say I think Spielberg is delivering
a sincere message that we need faith and belief
in a time when we are dominated by materialism
and a lack of connection and communication. It's
like kind of a Tower of Babel story. I think
this is a movie about empathy being used as a
weapon. Okay, that's fine. I think that this
is a movie much like War of the Worlds or something,
where we're talking about the modern zeitgeist
or whatever. But we're talking about the same
thing as War of the Worlds. We're talking about
warring, you know, we're talking about a takeover
here. And by the end of the movie, by the time
they have this spokesperson for Gaia and spokesperson
for math or whatever, one of their right arm
and one of their left arm, and they've already
been controlling this thing since 1947. And now
they've slowly sort of prepared this and they've
prepared it in a way where we're all empathetic
with them because they're the victim. And it
was like really important that this information
not get out in any other way. And it's like important
to everybody that it not get out in any other
way. It's important. It's very, very important
to control the narrative in order to make these
people, these aliens, the victims when they reveal
to us that they're. been in control you know
what i mean um they're disclosing sort of this
thing and i and i think that part of the thing
is that this guy this guy that you say is the
devil um noah i think that he has has set up
our characters in the first place when in the
first scene You see Kellner holding the device
to Noah to threaten him. He's very clearly wearing
a glove that separates his hand from the device,
therefore showing that the device is not going
to be activated. And he is looking directly at
it from two feet away and is just like, don't
do it. If you squeeze it, it's going to... And
that only plays because Kellner doesn't know
how the device works any better than we know
how the device works. But when you go back and
watch it a second time, it's like... Dude, no
one knows how that device works. And he knows
that shooting him is not going to turn off the
device. There's nothing dangerous here happening.
He's letting him get away with the device and
all of the information so that he can leak this
in the way that the aliens want where we're empathetic
with it and it's been a leak. It's not just a...
You know what I mean? This is the way all of
this is... This movie is closer... not to close
encounters, but to tenet. Like, this is another
tenet where they're playing both sides and they've
taken over and it's all about being able to control
the narrative. It's a very cynical outlook, yeah.
But in the end, when she says, like, listen,
she's going to say the thing that is the thing
that we all totally empathize with and, like,
makes them, like, our new gods. Like, you know
what I mean? And that's after the 50 years that
is... you know, from 47 till now or whatever,
the 70 years that they talk about. It's another
remake of Childhood's End. And I think that the
music plays that way. And I think that the alien
looks that way and it's rolled out like our new
God. And we have both of the children sitting
one on each arm. And it's, I think it's very
dark. And there's a lot about the power of empathy.
And Christianity being a deep part of that. And
I think that this is a Christian movie in those
ways. But I think that she, Jane, is pure in
a way that a lot of these other people are not.
I don't know that I totally agree. I think it'd
be very easy to see it as the way we've been
kind of seeing a lot of movies and deconstructing
stuff. I think you can cast it in that light.
But I also think... When I said I don't think
Spielberg thinks technology is fundamentally
evil, I think you do and maybe I do. I don't
know. I'm still on the fence about it. Actually,
I don't think it's fundamentally evil, but I
think in the hands of that it's maybe inevitable
that it just is used for evil or something like
that because of human nature. It's what 2001
A Space Odyssey is talking about. But I don't
think just because there's alien technology in
this movie means it's inherently evil. I think
if you take that out of the equation, this movie
is about empathy and the need to see each other
as human beings and to believe in something higher
than ourselves. I think that's true. But I also
think it's about the pitfalls of that. And the
ways that it makes us susceptible to things and
the stories we tell and the anthropomorphizing
of things and whatever. I don't know. I think
this is a movie where the world's on the brink
of World War III. They started production right
after Trump won. I mean, it's a bummer that they
chose North Korea instead of Iran. It was a coin
flip, you know? Yeah, exactly. But I don't know.
The thing is, man, to me, when she walks in there
and she's like, why is that guy so angry? And
he's like, he's Korean. What do you think? But
then she walks over and she actually communicates
with him. She's like, oh, your translator got
it wrong. He's actually saying this, not this.
And the guy's like, oh, the words are really
close. And she's like, that's okay. You probably
just didn't hear him. It's understandable. I
like this idea. He's saying that something's
understandable, but he doesn't mean I can understand
why they do it and I condone it. He means I comprehend
it because there's a pattern of this happening.
So it's not understandable. It's predictable.
Sorry. It's predictable. It's predictable, not
understandable. That's what he means. So it's
like, I don't understand why we cannot get along,
but it's predictable that we won't, you know,
and stuff like that. Well, I mean, I think he's
saying, like, I understand why North Korea wants
to bomb the United States. But he means, like,
no, no, no, it's predictable that North Korea
wants to bomb the United States. I'm not saying
it's, like, I understand why they would. You
know what I mean? That, I think, is a distinction
he's trying to make. All I'm trying to say is,
like, I think what that highlights is the idea
that language is imperfect. That language is
a tool. Language is like technology. that it
requires empathy to actually understand people,
to read between the lines, to understand the
true meaning of things, to not take words at
face value, to not have like a logical AI brain,
computerized brain about taking information,
that you have some common sense and are able
to weigh nuances and whatever, that like words
change based on body language and other cues
and that you're not just literal minded or whatever.
And I think like, The idea that Hugo says to
Daniel, you were taught mathematics, the language
of the universe. This concept has always bothered
me, but then I was like, oh, the language of
the universe. That means it's imperfect. It's
not a perfect way to describe reality. You still
need empathy. You still need faith. That's what
she is. And then you have this whole thing. Men
with machine minds and machine hearts, man. It
could be that too. Like, it could very easily
be he's the machine man, the machine mind, the
machine hearts, and then they need to hire a
Spielberg to, like, sell it to us. You know what
I mean? Yeah, but he doesn't have ideas. There's
nothing he can sell. She has the ideas. She has
the empathy. She has the knowledge. She can actually
tell people. The aliens have the ideas. What
I'm trying to say is, like, let's go with this.
Try not to be cynical. It's God. She's just a
conduit for God. There are no aliens. At the
end, Disclosure Day is not telling the world
that aliens exist. Disclosure Day is telling
the world that God exists. It is, have you heard
the good news? He died for your sins. It is a
Christ story. She is the second coming of Christ
during the apocalypse. She is here. Christ is
God, though. Sure, whatever. The movie makes
a big distinction of it's not God. That like
these are God's creatures too if they exist or
whatever or something else, but they're not God.
And the whole point is like I'm worried that
people are going to praise this false idol. There's
this weird emphasis put on like her. I think
that's a mislead. I think this whole idea that
I'm afraid people are going to praise this false
idol, that's just like totally wrong. The idea
is that they're the same. There is no false idol
that is God. Like the thing that they're working
towards is actually God. That's not what the
Catholic in this movie believes. No, but she's
also a skeptic. To me, this is like Close Encounters.
Schrader worked on Close Encounters, but this
feels like so much more of a Catholic Schrader
movie. That's what I mean. I don't think it's
an obvious and evident metaphor that it's talking
about God or the second coming of Christ or something
because it's so messy. And, like, there aren't,
like, direct one -to -one connections to, like,
mythology or these things, but, like, it all
has, like, the feeling of that. You know, everything
kind of, like, rhymes with something else. Like,
basically... I think it rhymes because it's the
Antichrist. That's why it rhymes. It's not Christ,
it's the Antichrist. It's the false idol. It's
the thing that she's afraid that people will
praise because it's like, now you're going to
show people real superior beings? What is that,
AI? Nobody thinks AI is a supreme being. Here's
the thing, man. The type of AI that we don't
know exists, man. The type of AI that maybe Palantir
has access to and we do not. Then that might
as well be a god. We're talking about the same
thing. That's the thing. I would say that no,
that would not be a god. That would be an antichrist.
You are just assuming the aliens... That's a
golem, man. That's like creating a robot that
has more power than... I'm not saying a golem
is the same thing as god. That's an evil man
-made creation. We didn't create the aliens.
They came to us. They're not creations in the
narrative of the movie or whatever. I think they
are a metaphor for something that came to us
and then the powers that be hid from everyone,
which is the power of God, the power of imagination,
the power of empathy, the power of the true thing
that actually holds us together, that holds societies
together. Not technology, not like an AI demon,
but a true belief in a higher thing that connects
us all. I think it's like, why do you think that?
That happens after all of this, like, snuff footage
plot. Like, why is the path to that, all of this
footage that is treated not like, oh my god,
this is amazing, but like, as like a, holy shit,
this is snuff footage and we're all watching,
I'm so sorry you have to be watching this with
me right now. Like, why is it so horrifyingly
like we're watching snuff footage? Well, because
it's like watching the crucifixion of Jesus.
It's like watching God be murdered. It's like
we are talking about the very idea of something
sacred being exploited by our government. We
are just talking about something profound being
hidden, some truth that allows them to create
powers and technologies that allow them to be
in control and have dominance over us or whatever.
I mean, like they have a superior form of communication.
I just think in the zeitgeist, the like thing
that's being hidden and being disclosed, that
is like essentially snuff footage. It's also
a ton of like just UAP videos. These people who
were captured at 10 years old and put through
MKUltra stuff or whatever, like that doesn't
lead to God. All the videos that are shown at
the end are like, they're not like snuff films.
They're like, you know, UAP videos from pilots
and like, Lots of videos of the aliens being
alive. And yet they're treating it like it's
snuff films. Everybody's reacting as if they're
watching the most horrifying. And the other thing
is people are not being awakened and whatever.
People are just sitting there on their phones
and everything has come to a halt. And yeah,
it's come to a halt in North Korea as well, in
Russia or whatever. We see the guys at the tanks
also looking at their phones. But this is not
an enlightenment happening from this disclosure.
at the end of ready player one you know what
i mean you see kind of the people on the street
like getting together and stuff there's like
there's a unity happening everybody's experiencing
this moment together in this one everybody is
zombified and they're distracted and zombified
from the imminent disaster that's happening or
whatever and that's you know I think that's been
the intent that, you know, the White House has
tried by putting out a lot of this UFO stuff
is just to sort of bewilder people and create
more of a postmodern paradigm of people just
being like, well, there's aliens now. OK, and
now we're at war with Iran. OK, whatever. And
now there's aliens. OK, you know, but. Yeah,
I mean, I just don't think that's what's being
expressed because that's what creates the false
Spielberg narrative. of it all that like, it
just feels so unreal. It just feels like something
that would never happen. People wouldn't just
like look at their phones everywhere. And the
whole world wouldn't stop if we got like a disclosure
dump of alien footage. Well, that is, that is
like Tim, Tim, Tim Dillon said this because I
don't think because I think it's a metaphor for
God, man, because I think if you showed people
an actual miracle, Like if you could somehow
actually show people a miracle, Spielberg can't
do it. Nobody can do it. It's impossible. We're
not gods. But like, I think he's trying to create
an expression of people actually seeing something
that is awakening, like something that actually
stops the world. and i think the only thing that
would do that spectacle is like just like just
like we talked about in the 2001 episode man
where it's like yeah it's a spectacle like the
moon landing yeah but i think i think the alien
i think the alien narrative is a thing that's
created to distract us to make us feel like we're
you know that's what the alien narrative is the
alien narrative is the thing that distracts people
because the alien narrative is not actually about
wonder it's a scientific it's like trying to
create a material explanation for stuff that
is just unexplainable like when you look at those
UFO files it's like most of this shit is just
like weird shapes and like lights and like whatever
you know it's like this could just be an angel
whatever like I don't know what the fuck is this
you know it's just the idea of saying like it's
some being from another dimension or some some
like creature that's figured out like some work
around this law of physics or whatever like it's
just like this doubling down on a conspiracy
theory of materialism that that's what explains
everything. Like the aliens, aliens aren't real,
you know, like it's all just this idea that was
created in the fifties as a propaganda thing
that Spielberg helped perpetuate by creating
close encounters. That's like, you know, when
the gray aliens first became like the standard.
Um, and like, I kind of think this is a movie
standard before close encounters. He popularized
it. But the point is that the gray aliens come
from a real account, like from an abduction account.
Of course, yeah. All of these things come from
abduction accounts, and they existed in comic
books and movies. Yeah, so people read about
this stuff, and then they had some weird experience
that they would have initially attributed to
God, but now they attribute to aliens. Right.
I mean, it could be the deep state too, but I
think like to me, the movie is stating that like,
it's not aliens, man. Have a spiritual view of
the world. You know, don't have a materialist
view in the world. We believe that like there
are extraterrestrials spying on us or controlling
us or like whatever it is. It's just like nuts.
It's God. There are miracles. There's magic.
There are voices that speak to you that you follow.
And if you follow, your heart and you lead with
empathy, you create beauty in this world and
connection and family and all these things. Like
the thing that people need right now is faith
and like connection under something that's like
sacred, not the AI demon. People don't want the
AI demon. It's like Christianity is on the rise,
you know? And this is like the most deeply Christian
Spielberg movie. I mean, Spielberg has made many
deeply Christian movies, bizarrely enough. Yeah,
because I don't think he believes in Judaism,
man. This doesn't quite compare to Amistad as
far as its Christianity. It wasn't until I watched
Disclosure Day that I thought Spielberg could
be a bad guy. I think he's a good guy. I think
he's a good guy. I think he's anti -Israel. I
think he thinks that Israel and the secret societies
that were born of it in that time is all this
evil shit. It's like it's the replacement for
God that is destabilizing everything and just
creating every person into like a lonely individual
and like everything is defined by our traumas
and like, I don't know, like Spielberg keeps
dealing with like this childhood trauma thing
in this movie and like the fact that she has
to go back to her childhood room just like at
the end of Ready Player One. And it's also something
that happens to them when they're 10. which is
a big part of E .T. It's also what Peter Coyote,
you know, at the end of the movie says, like,
I've been waiting for this since I was 10 years
old or 11 years old or something. So there is
a significant thing that happens at that age
to these kids who are also the age of the kids
in Close Encounters. Well, there you go. Yeah,
and obviously Spielberg's had his Childhood trauma
that he keeps reflecting on and finds truth from.
And these movies are hysterical sessions. I think
The Fableman's really makes the gender roles
and things in Disclosure Day pretty obvious.
It's clearly, oh, my mommy and my daddy are these
two characters. And there's the pianos. The pianos
again. Mommy's pianos are around and there's
a piano in her bedroom. I was, I mean, I was
really thinking watching this, just, just how
much she must love Evangelion. It's just like
such a Shinji. Well, like when, when she's becoming
like when, um, Noah sees the face of his dead
wife in her or whatever, like when she's, cause
she is kind of, she can kind of become who she
needs to for them. Yeah. She's Ray. Yeah. She's
the Ray Ayanami. She's connected to the all one.
Like, yeah. Yeah. Noah becomes everyone for everyone.
And yeah. So like, She has the female version
of, you know, because in her bedroom, she's obviously
an animal lover. Her bedroom's just decked out
in animal stuff. And then the aliens come to
her as animals, not toys, like in Close Encounters,
which are a natural form. They're not, like,
corporate things. No, but they're unnatural.
I mean, it's such a choice that they look so
CG and stuff. They do look really fake, yeah.
So does the alien, man. So does the alien. Yeah,
but not as fake. I mean, I don't know. But the
thing is, the alien is something that you can
accept because you've never seen an alien. But
the animals are intentionally, like, he could
have found a shot where there were going to be
six deer outside. You know what I mean? But he
chooses to do CGI deer, even when it's just a
guy looking at deer outside and them running
away. And everything that they describe of these
animals is a contradiction. Their eyes, their
look. but they're not. They're bold, but they
run away when I pull a camera out. Yeah, yeah.
Like, they're bold, but they run away. And then,
like, later he describes it. There's a bunch
of times when they describe it, and it's always
just contradictions, and they are both natural
and CGI. I just think that's how you can describe
God, though. Like, I get that's how you can describe
the aliens. Like, yeah, they're bold, they hang
around, they watch shit, but the moment you pull
a camera out, they fly away. That's also God.
That's also miracles. We can't capture a miracle
on a camera. We can't capture yada, yada, yada.
Right, but I think that this is part of a tradition
of movies, including significantly The Shining
and E .T. and whatever, where people often fill
in with the supernatural things that are things
that they can't really deal with. You know what
I mean? Things that are traumatic. It's traumatic
incidents. Well, is it better to say it's a materialist
thing, like they're controlled by aliens or the
deep state or something? Well, I mean, in The
Shining, it's like, nah, man, maybe it's just
somebody who's actually here who's doing you
harm. Like, you don't need to attribute this
to ghosts or whatever. And I think that the idea
that something happened to you when you were
10 and you were taken out of your bed and it
was a traumatic event that happened to you when
you were that age. You were taken out of your
bed in the middle of the night and operated on
with another kid who was screaming, but you dissociated.
That, to me, sounds like a traumatic event. That
sounds like a molestation event or something
bad that happened that's being described. If
a child described that to a psychiatrist, they're
not going to be like, oh, this kid. was in touch
with god or or was in oh well this kid was molested
probably like you know of course these are the
types of things that kids come up with where
it's like oh yeah it was a deer and a thing and
whatever and it happened and that's why i was
outside in my bare feet and whatever in the middle
of the snow and that's yeah but but but it but
it also references hansel and gretel which is
like a fairy tale about abandonment from your
parents but it's not like a But it's because
ultimately the story is supposed to be in support
of individualism. It's about leaving the nest
and gaining your own independence. It's about
predictive programming and whatnot. It's about
following the crumbs and being led along a path.
Yeah, but then they kill the witch. That actually
leads you to Satan. Yeah, but then they take
control and kill her and get out of there. It's
about taking agency and individuality. But that's
not what happens in the end. In the end, they
just get operated on. And then they think that
it has something to do with birds because there
was above their bed a thing with the birds that's
like the thing that they put over their head
in the Hansel and Gretel house. That's actually
something that's happening to them in their bed
still. They haven't gone anywhere. You know what
I mean? Sure. The birds have now become the device.
That's spinning around their head and something's
happening to these 10 -year -olds in their beds.
I think God talking to anyone is going to be
traumatic. I think God coming to you in the form
of an animal or a fire or a bush on fire is just
going to be traumatic. God speaks through something.
But I think, again, this, just like Close Encounters,
has a lot of resonance with conspiracy ideas.
And about Jesus' acting at the beginning of Last
Temptation. He's, like, friggin' insane person.
He hates having the visions. It's, like, all
torture. It's, like, not fun to be Christ. It's
not fun to be the chosen one or, like, you know,
and people who have trauma are, like, I don't
know, she's capable of the empathy that's needed
or whatever and, like... Right, but she is having
fun. She says she's having fun. She says it feels
good, like, and whatever, but it's really just
an amphetamine sort of rush thing. At first,
until she realizes... what's at stake and it's
like oh wait i'm just i don't want to be anyone's
religion and like this is insane and i don't
know yeah like you know someone kneels and does
the cross in front of her but to me i think that
there's the the idea that this all is because
something was done to her when she was 10 in
the middle of the night in her bed And that it
was activated later on by an interaction that,
like, this is all, again, much like Close Encounters.
This is monarch -slave shit. Like, conspiracy
theory, monarch -slave shit. And I think it's
interesting that she emphasizes, like, that it's
not about the cardinal or anything. Like, the
cardinal is what it comes to or whatever. But
when they describe her dreams, they describe
the butterflies. and the butterflies are all
over the walls and stuff and they're like to
me it's a way of like it would be too obvious
if he made it be a monarch butterfly that came
to her and revealed her trauma or whatever but
like trauma -based mind control is monarch slavery
and like the idea of this character who has a
trauma that is being mind controlled by this
like thing that is taking over a country through
empathy and be playing the victim harder and
whatever. Like, it's just like, how can you not
see that as being the Christ narrative? Like
I get like, Oh, it's the antichrist. But like,
I think that's just your perspective. Like, I
don't think that's very cold, hard, obvious about
this movie. She is given Christ's halo and, Crown
of Thorns in that scene as well because she's
framed within the deer's antlers and she has
like the mobile above her head with the cardinals,
which is like a red halo. But she's anointed
by Palantir. She's not anointed by God. That's
because you think they are Palantir. That's because
you assume the aliens are Palantir. But why do
you assume that? But the aliens are rolled out
by Palantir. He's already been there and is controlling
this thing. You know what I mean? The whole revolution.
The Nathan Fielder method that's happening in
this movie, that whole thing is controlled by
the alien who's telling them what to do to create
the conditions for them to properly disclose
their presence. And what they're really going
to disclose is that they're in charge of the
world now. Why would you think that? They just
need to disclose it right. through the right
person who is going to empathize properly with
everyone. It's because it's the end of our childhood's
end. I mean, that's how God got his word out
through Jesus. It's the end of childhood's end.
But the point is that it's specifically underlined
in the movie that it is not God. That God also
could have made other things and whatever and
blah, blah, blah. But that it is not God. And
that's why she's worried about having these things
be released. That's her motivation. It's weirdly
Catholic. It's weirdly like has nothing to do
with anyone else's motivation. But it is there
to underline the fact that she is. Well, I can
underline the fact that that's not actually in
the Bible, man. It's not true. That's just fake.
It doesn't say anything about humans being supreme
beings in the Bible. It only says that we have
dominion over earth. Okay. So like there's, there's
no thing that like suggests there's other beings
in the Bible. Okay. Yeah. So he made it up to
actually underline it in this movie and say like,
or he made it up to say like, this is bullshit.
You know what I mean? Like these things could
be two different things, man. Like he made it
up to make, to show like Catholicism being compatible
with this idea, but that this is not God specifically.
The heart of this movie is the conversation about
whether or not they should disclose this. And
the only reason they do disclose it is because
the aliens decided that they should and how they
should and why they should. And they have no
agency whatsoever. They also wouldn't if God
was speaking to them. So the question is, you
can either see it as God or you can see it as
AI. And depending on which one you choose, you're
cynical or, you know. You have a more optimistic
outlook because you've not made the case clearly
enough. And also making the listen ambiguous
holds the ambiguity. You don't know what they're
going to be told. Not all the footage is snuff
films. Also, why wouldn't Christ care about the
victims and the tired and poor? Why wouldn't
this represent the idea of God being bastardized?
the idea of faith being bastardized, the idea
of spirituality or wonder, like literally all
Hugo tells the bad guy is like, it's just like
people being... Just listen to the music. It
feels like that scene in the second renaissance,
the matrix, animatrix thing, where that robot
representative goes up to Congress and signs
his name and then blows himself up and destroys...
DC because it's like it's just like the leader
is here and he's talking to us because he created
all of the conditions already where he controlled
not only like that he's totally safe and fine
being here and talking to us why is he the bad
guy but also that everybody empathizes with him
already because like we've done this whole thing
about making them somehow be a victim And now
it's going to, like, it's so weird. Like, it's
all about the conditions with which we're going
to, what? Basically take over. This is a takeover
that's already happened. Just like Tenet was.
It's incepting itself into existence. It's creating
the new power structure. It's taking over. Because
everything will be thrown off. That's why they're
afraid of putting this out there and blah, blah,
blah, whatever. It's like, no, no, no. In what
way? How's everything going to be thrown off?
What are you talking about? They already took
over. They're just letting us know. That's why
they controlled all of this. How did the aliens
take over? They already controlled all of this
situation. Because he's just mind reading everybody?
Controlling everybody? He controls both the math
and the empathy, and they are representative
of the Noosphere, of Gaia. And he controls Vortex?
Yes. The secret organization that is the CIA.
Yes. And Mossad and Israel trying to hold this
secret back. They all are working for the alien.
Yes. The AI demon. The AI demon alien. They just
don't know it yet. They're playing them against
each other in order to create the conditions
with which everybody's empathetic to them and
they can release this information and control
all the airwaves and control the narrative because
we're actually already on their side against
the people who did these and kept these tapes
from us and whatever. That's kind of what you
would need for religion too, man. I just think
these things are basically the same in this movie.
The details don't really tell you which one it
is. I don't think it's obvious the alien is a
bad guy. It represents a new totalitarian power
that's taking over. I don't think that's obvious
about the movie or whatever. I don't think it's
obvious. I think it can mean the other thing
just as easily. And that is the thing I thought,
the thing that made the whole movie connect for
me. Because initially I was kind of watching
it with a more cynical... And nothing was making
sense from that perspective. But like thinking
about it as actually something positive and thinking
about it as God and thinking about like, this
is actually just like spirituality and faith
and like the voice of God. This is a kind of,
this is a miracle that's happening. This is like,
things are, everything is the right place. Things
are like. do we have agency? I don't know. Like
if there's, if there's such thing as a God, then
maybe we don't like Spielberg follows the music.
You know, there's always kind of just like a,
why am I doing this? I'm feeling this out. I
don't know where I'm going. Well, I saw a sign
or this happened. It's like having a like spiritual
view of the world is like, that's what that's
a metaphor for is like seeing signs, like hearing
the voice. I looked up St. Claire. Oh yeah. Yeah.
Well that was one, but St. Benedicta. They say
it earlier on, and I was like, why? They're talking
about the other nun there who was a hard case
or whatever. I'm like, oh, she's a nun. They're
like, yeah, yeah, she'll be so good with children.
And they both say, like, Saint Benedicta. And
I couldn't figure out, I was like, why? Who's
Saint Benedicta? Saint Benedicta was, there's
like, she's got like some theory about empathy.
being the most important thing for transubstantiation.
Like there's some, she's got some like, it's
the, it's that intellectual Christian stuff,
like Thomas Aquinas stuff. You know what I mean?
Where it's like physics and Christianity and
whatever. She was a Jew who converted to Christianity
and was killed in a concentration camp. Okay.
And I think she basically apparently like, the
whole time like knew she was going to die and
as soon as Germany invaded she basically like
started trying to withstand the cold and the
like starvation or whatever to like prepare herself
for the concentration camp she knew she was going
to but I wasn't quite sure what that had to do
with the girl, unless they were talking about
the girl. They said after she stopped staying
out so much, it's like, well, maybe she was staying
out like St. Benedicta to torture herself or
something in the cold because of the coming Holocaust
or something. I don't really know. But I do know
that when I started looking up St. Benedicta
and the Thomas Aquinas math Christianity stuff,
it started opening up ideas in my head. I don't
think it's totally figured out at this point.
And I think that maybe more people will someday
have good video essays about what St. Benedicta
has to do with Disclosure Day. But I think it's
key. I think it's a big part of it. Well, there's
also St. Clair. A big part of her is empathy
and its importance and the primacy of empathy
or something. But then, yeah, there's St. Clair
as well, which they bring up, right? Yeah. And
explain on screen. Well, he says, I remember
St. Clair, she... Couldn't make it to Christmas,
Midnight Mass, and had a vision of it instead.
So she was in two places at once, like me. She
retroactively became the patron saint of television.
Yeah, there's a lot of connections between God
allowed her to do this thing that this technology
is now letting him do. Right. But one of them
was God, and one of them is not, I think is part
of the thing to me. Specifically, the conflation
of that is, a great evil that this movie is like,
I think talking about while not really directly
talking about it, but I think that it ends up
being, if you think about that as a theme, a
big part of a lot of the scenes and conversations
and the ideas. I mean, just like I said before,
I think the alien narrative is not conflated
with God. It replaces it. And that's what's underlined.
If you show them a Supreme being, it will replace
God. But like, If the supreme being is just God,
if that's what's being revealed and disclosed,
then that's not really an issue. I think that's
this assumption that, I don't know, I just kind
of think that's a mislead by a character who
doesn't have anything figured out in the movie
yet. I think that's put in there as a key to
the movie. There's no other reason to have these
Christians in this movie. You keep bringing up
all these things that I don't see as being cold
hard proof. To me, all those things just mean
the thing that I interpreted. That's not a thing
that gets underlined that, like, destroys my
argument. That's, like, all I'm trying to say.
So this is a very interpretable movie. But, like,
I don't know. The point is, like, she's explicitly
told you didn't lose your faith in God. You lost
your faith in people. And it doesn't, like, God
isn't real. Whether God's real or not doesn't
matter. It's just, like, the idea of God that
connects. It's the idea of God that creates common
humanity. And, like, I basically just thought
that's what this movie was expressing. I do not
have a cynical view about this movie. that like
what's taking over. And at the end of this, Spielberg
is saying, we're just being controlled by the
AI demon and we're going to lose to it. And there
will be no true God and God is dead and no spirituality,
no faith. The only other option is religion in
this movie. That is, that is what the movie is
saying. I think, I think that there is a Christianity
that exists where it's like, yeah, fine. This,
this true, true, true. There are aliens, but
like, That's not God. We don't bow to it. We
don't pray to it. We don't believe that just
because this person knows data about our day
that they are God and we should submit to them
and allow them to take over our country and go
into the deepest reaches of our security or whatever.
You know what I mean? These things are already
things that are accessible. I don't know. I don't
think the aliens controlling... Noah. I just
don't. I think Noah, they also set up the idea
that certain people can't be dropped in on. And
I think Noah is one of those people and he never
gets dropped in on by anyone. Like you can't
drop in on Daniel either. Like you can't drop
in on anyone who's not empathetic, who's all
logic or something. Like, I don't know. The alien
doesn't have full control. It just doesn't. And
that's like underlined as well. And I really
do think Ward X is the deep state that is holding,
that is like fucking up our world. that hide
secrets from presidents, that is, like, controlling
everything. They use AI. They use the Antichrist.
And that the aliens actually represent something
that is, like, mystical and wondrous and beyond
our understanding. Noah lets Daniel get away.
Sure. Yeah, he lets Daniel get away. He lets
Jane get away with the device. But I think it
has a lot more to do with Noah. And his trauma
and his loss and like the things that he wants
to know and the things that he wants to hear
and how he is a conflicted like Aikman who doesn't
necessarily believe in what he's doing. Like,
I don't know, man. Like, I just don't think that's
necessarily like, yeah, I don't know. But this
is cool. It's cool that we have different outlooks
on it. I think he's like the butler in Ready
Player One. I also think that interpretation
is not necessarily true either. A lot of this
is built on many interpretations that are you
can take or leave. But I'm not agreeing with
you on this one. I'm going to say I did not come
away with this one with that and you have not
convinced me. But also it doesn't sound like
I've convinced you. But I think Spielberg is
being sincere here. I think he's being, I don't
think there's like, I don't like, that's just
too like, like going to that place with it just
feels too like. You think that that alien revealing
itself, whispering into the math guy's ear, him
whispering to the girl at her going up and saying,
listen, is like an earnest, happy, beautiful
ending. You don't think that's like a, oh, wait,
why is this fucking satanic at all? I don't know.
Why do you think it's satanic? Just because it,
like, I don't know. It's just like it is. Like,
it just is. Well, then it just is not. You can't
make the argument. The point is that, like, this
is a litmus test. It's a litmus test. It's about
your faith. It's a non -human entity that now
is, like, the most powerful being on our planet.
Like, so it's like we've been taken over by aliens.
And it's not like, it's not like, it's like,
yeah, why is that bad? What alien? This one alien?
Yeah, one alien who doesn't need to be worried
about being there. And like is brought out in
his own environment and whatever. Like it's this
alien that like controlled all of the actions
in the movie thus far and made this thing happen
in ways that like. we don't have any understanding
or control of. Like, it can get into everything.
It can do everything. No, it can't. It can't
drop into anybody that's established. Like, I
don't know why. If you're going to, like, take
certain things, like, at face value. No, I mean,
it can't drop in on everybody. Yeah, but it can,
like. So it can't control the WordX. It can't
control everybody. Like, it can't do that. So,
obviously, it has to, like, side with people.
No, it can't. Like, I don't think there's any
evidence that it's doing that. That's just something
you're making up. If you want to find the evidence,
cool. There's no evidence in the movie that that
alien is jumping in on Wardex or controlling
them, as far as I can tell. First of all, it's
not about dropping in on Wardex. It's about making
Wardex do the thing that it wants. Yeah, so you're
suggesting that it can drop in on Noah and say,
don't chase him, let him get away with it. No,
I'm saying that it can... I mean... That's what
you're saying. Instead of it being, like, Noah's
own decision. Noah doesn't have any reason to
not do that. Like, there's no conflict of interest.
It's like... There's obviously something... There's
obviously... Look, there's a struggle going on
within him that has to do with, like, what he's
lost and his own faith and what he's now in service
of. Scanlan means quarrel. Fairchild means beautiful
child. Kellner means steward. I don't know. I
mean, I think in time, with more rewatches and
information, it could be something else. But
I'm going to give Spielberg the benefit of the
doubt that he can subvert himself, that he's
not always going to do the same thing, that he's
not making the same movie he did when he made
Close Encounters when he was 31 years old at
the end of his life, when he cares about what
matters now, unless he is a propagandist for
the machine or something, unless he wants us
to... like think about faith because that's not
actually how you solve problems. It is material
analysis that solves problems or whatever. Like,
I don't know, you know, what is reality anymore?
What does people were talking about? What's obfuscated?
What's the truth? Like, it's just kind of like,
all I know is that nobody, like, there's nothing
exciting about that disclosure. There's nothing
like about those alien videos that are released.
People are looking at it horrified as if it's
like, The cultural moment is very reminiscent
of the Epstein files. It is not, to me, reminiscent
of any other depiction I've seen of people seeing
aliens for the first time. People are not crazed
and running in the streets scared or excited.
Nobody's going to the roof on Independence Day
being like, come here first or anything. There's
no life whatsoever. It's just a way for people
to be bewildered to the point of zombification
in a way that's like, cartoonish and over the
top and like On purpose. In a way that it's not
even depicted in Ready Player One. It's the opposite
of the revolution in Ready Player One. Yeah,
on purpose. Where people are taking off their
masks. I think we disagree on the purpose. Because
I think people would be disturbed if they saw
the miracle. People are having their eyes wide
shut by this revelation. That's like the whole
point. Once the alien is speaking through this
empathetic person about their own victim. It's
eyes wide shut. It's disclosing something while
also making everybody submit to that thing. Because
it's already won the argument by controlling
both sides. Which is why this all happened in
the way that it happened. Because this couldn't
have happened in the way that it happened unless
they did. create this scenario and control both
Kellner and Fairchild at the very least, if not
also Wakefield and Scanlan. I mean, at least
Fairchild, Kellner, and Wakefield, if not also
Scanlan. No, I think everything, I think it's
like you're just talking about determinism, which
is like a spiritual concept that like God controls
everything. Sure, but it also could be controlled
by an enemy who's trying to take over a territory,
just like we talked about in Tenet, or creating
its own power structure. I just don't see any
of that in this movie, but I think when you compare
Close Encounters and Disclosure Day, I think
one is like at the end the devil wins and one
at the end God wins, and I think they're very
different movies. And the alien represents the
devil in one and God in the other, and it's like
it's... That's my take. That's kind of what I
think this is. And I think a lot of the details
can be read both ways to strengthen either viewpoint,
basically. It's weird. This is throwing me for
a loop a little bit. There's choices to put things
in that underline. It's just such a materialist,
cynical... It's a very cynical, materialist...
I don't think that's what was said. That's the
way you're interpreting it, but it's not the
way I interpreted it. I don't think it's underlined
that they're not God. I don't think that is underlined.
Blanketship's whole conversation with Kellner
is all about whether or not the release of this
thing that is essentially like supreme beings,
but not God, which to me feels like... the anti
-god like you know what i mean like these are
supreme like what would it mean if you start
like people will lose their faith if you show
people these things that are actual supreme beings
but are not god and like the thing is like that
or they will just get faith in these new like
when she said all that stuff i was just like
this is really stupid like yeah that's the thing
all that stuff you dismissed that whole part
of the movie but i think that this is a key that's
kind of the thing no no no no what that's not
what i mean listen to me man The reason that
sounds stupid is because nobody would fuck...
You don't have faith if aliens would dislodge
your faith. That's not the conversation. She's
not looking in the right place. She's not considering
the real thing that is the issue for her. That's
not the issue that people will see these as supreme
beings. The issue is that she doesn't believe
in people. She doesn't believe people can trust...
She doesn't trust that people can deal with anything
that requires responsibility. Like that requires,
she's like, you know how many times new information
just like upended the world and whatever and
destroyed us all. It's like, maybe she's right.
But like, I think that's more a conversation
about you are going to release a revelation that
will change everything fundamentally. I don't
think that's what will happen if aliens, like
if we find out aliens are like, that won't change
anything fundamentally. And like the UAP dump
that actually happened. That's the thing about
this that I think is somewhat. old -fashioned
right is I think that yeah if aliens were if
there was a disclosure which there have been
recently of like oh yeah fucking aliens yeah
they're real like there's a blah blah blah that
has now been verified and whatever but like yeah
people don't blink an eye at that shit because
we're going to war with Iran or whatever like
we're like it's just like I don't believe that
Spielberg's analysis because it doesn't hold
true people aren't people aren't buying the spectacle
they're like seeing what's going on, and they're
really, really disapproving of it. But that's
the thing. I think that this did work for a different
era, which was like the entirety of Spielberg's
career, where you could bewilder people with
a spectacle that the government told you to release
to people. I think he was making this movie during
the first year of Trump, and he probably was
being improvisational. He always is, and changing
the script as he goes, and putting things in
there. The very first scene is a wrestling match,
right? I think it's interesting that the movie
starts with the audience literally getting stomped
underfoot by a wrestler. Wrestling matches are
spectacles. They're not real. It's a fake battle,
right? Yeah, I said that. It's a spectacle. It's
not real. And there's red MAGA hats. There's
a lot of American flags in this movie. I mean,
even in the scene where Jane's being interrogated
and she's stigmatizing herself with her cross,
there's a folded -up American flag behind her.
You know, there's like the colorless gray American
flags on the cops. There's a lot of American
flag stuff in Saving Private Ryan. He uses that
as imagery. He uses that as a symbol a lot. This
is a very America -centric movie. I think this
is a movie about how America has lost its empathy.
I think this is like how America has become materialists
and believes in an antichrist instead of a true
God and true faith and true empathy and connection
and community with others. There's a lot going
on in this movie. Yeah, yeah. And I think a lot
of these little details about dates and stuff,
they say that all his files only go back to 1947,
which was the year the CIA was formed. It was
also the year that the first UFO project was
formed as well, like Project Signal or whatever.
Also some pretty significant developments in
the formation of Israel, which was established
in 1948, right? Yes. And then Mossad is formed
in 49. He says, Hugo says to Margaret, what happened
to you in February of 1996? That's when she had
her abduction. February of 1996 is when IBM's
deep blue computer first beat the chess master,
Garry Kasparov. In the first game, Garry Kasparov
won overall, but that was the first moment that
people... That was the moment this idea that
computers could overtake humans and intelligence
was born. Right. And then also refined what our
idea of what intelligence is. And so you could
say that detail is either proof to your point
or proof to my point. Like it's kind of, it could
either be both. It's like this moment in 1996
is when things started to go the wrong way and
a seed is being planted in you to be the one
who can change the tide later or something. Or
it's like this is when the computer defeats you
and wins. I don't know. I just don't think it's
all cynical. I think it's a little bit of both.
And Spielberg knows how to ride the line and
he's not didactic. I don't really interpret the
ending of 2001 as cynical. I kind of see it as
a sort of beating of the computer and a move
towards a more real spirituality or God or rebirth
or something. And I don't know, like is Spielberg
just making two alien movies that are both anti
that message? I have a hard time believing it.
But intent also doesn't matter. The fact that
you see all these things in it is like really
interesting because I feel like your interpretation
is just more materialist. It's like more representative
of what's true. As much as we want to believe
that ideology and faith can save us from this
AI demon and that there is a real God and real
spirituality, it's like maybe that's actually
the performance. Maybe that's the spectacle.
The wrestling match, the nuns, all these things
you see in the movie, it's just all performance.
Maybe. The movie that I really thought this reminded
me of more than anything was They Live. Totally.
Where the end is also at the news station and
whatever. And it ends with, you know, what's
wrong, baby? But to me, it's just we're not following
the revolution. We're following the people at
the news station who work for the aliens and
are getting across their message. I mean, Margaret
Fairchild and... and uh daniel kellner are not
really like yeah i understand like that is one
way to look at it but because we don't hear the
message i think that is also a choice for her
to say listen and then that's the last message
of the movie we don't know what he says the world
is literally about to collapse dude something
needs to give right you know whether it's a plan
by god or the ai model or something this is a
force that is trying to save the world maybe
to stop it from completely collapsing the force
that created that as part of the conditions for
this right then why would it need to do all the
like why would like whatever you know that's
just so like i know we just talked about tenant
i get it but like yeah it was just kind of seems
like what is what is the thing we need right
now on the on the brink of total collapse let
somebody else take over some sort of fascistic
takeover right like that's what all these like
sci -fi movies are yearning for like a project
uh hail mary or whatever it's just like oh my
god the world's gonna end what if just like a
fascist would take over and like decide everything
for us and like put our resources into the right
thing yeah but i don't think that's what's happening
here i think it's literally just saying what
if we recognize that we are all human like i
know it's like schmaltzy it's like of like cliche
it's yeah let's all just try to get along i i
agree that it is saying empathy and i agree that
it is saying that i just think that it's saying
that in a different way than you are you can
assume i think that the people in this movie
who are right are blankenship and the nuns And,
like, I think that Fairchild and Kellner and
Scanlon and Wakefield are all agents for the
fucking, the takeover of this new god, the Antichrist.
But, like, there are still people who praise
the old god, and they're in the fucking nunnery.
That's basically it. Okay, what is Jane doing
at the end of the movie? Well, she sells out.
Yeah, exactly. I mean, the nun's the only one
smiling at the end. Christianity is susceptible
to empathy. I mean, there's the idea of Christianity,
why the Romans accept Christianity is because
it was a slave religion for them to turn the
other cheek and accept their place and be more
docile because of their empathy. So, yeah, she
decides to believe in Fairchild out of empathy
for Fairchild. Fairchild's thing works on everybody.
That's why it takes over. It's taking over through,
just like in Close Encounters, we see the takeover
through light and music. So there isn't any real
empathy. It was kind of a Spielberg sort of stand
-in of light and music and talking to them through
that and that being filmmaking. In this, Spielberg
is known as the emotional schmaltzy, you know,
empathy filmmaker. And this is using that power
to... sell this idea to the people and like this
yeah is a spandex for spielberg selling what
idea the idea of these invaders to the people
like that is like the the idea of the secret
government within your government that's been
secretly controlling your government for many
years ever since 1947 and we're revealing to
you that that those people are in charge but
like we're doing it in a way where you are empathetic
to those people because they're actually the
victims even though like they've been secretly
controlling this whole thing and have controlled
both sides of the narrative that is coming out
right now and being disclosed to you right now.
They're actually in control of that narrative
and of actually all criticism of that narrative
too and whatever, because like there's that secret
control ever since 1947 that like needs to be,
I think that there's something interesting of
Spielberg saying that, that makes this a more
interesting movie than it would be otherwise.
It makes it a more interesting movie than it
would be if it was just sort of a movie about
like faith to me. Well, of course it's not as
interesting, but that's why, like, it doesn't
win, I guess. You're saying faith and empathy
can only be used as a weapon? No, I'm saying
that this is a movie about that being used as
a weapon in a way that is overt, I think. I think
that he's put that in movies other times and
it's been less overt. But in this one, I think
that it's like, oh, this is the thing that we
are using against humanity to sell this guy,
the guy who was in the ship in the War of the
Worlds, this guy. We're going to sell humanity
on him. And it's like, oh, we don't need to take
over the world because it's... already taken
over through empathy like you know what i mean
there doesn't even need to be a war it's like
that's the way that china is going to take over
america right like it's like they don't want
a war it's just going to be like yeah we're just
going to kind of shift around things and then
eventually we'll kind of own all the like you
know what i mean it's that sort of yeah i kind
of like sure that's how iran's winning yeah yeah
exactly it's through empathy but they are the
victims yeah and we should have empathy no i'm
not saying empathy is wrong look look i'm not
I'm just saying empathy's wrong. I'm just saying
this is a complicated movie. So he's the bad
guy because we're all empathetic for him and
we spread his empathy. Like, why? Why? Why, like,
can't he? Like, why is every victim some kind
of, like, Trojan horse? It's interesting to me
that, like... There can't be a victim that you
empathize with ever? Then how's, like, Jesus
ever going to win, dude? How's God and Christ
ever going to win? If you can never be empathetic,
it's always a weapon. You always have to be cynical
about it. You always have to assume it's a Trojan
horse. That is so fucking ridiculous. That's
part of the thing. That's what Eyes Wide Shut
is. When this thing is revealed to you, it shuts
your eyes further to the thing. It's like whether
or not it is a murderer, whether or not it is
a good thing, then we have to submit to this
thing because it did have the power to create
this and it did have the power to not create.
I don't think empathy is the only emotion that's
used. I think fear is used a lot too. It's used
by Scanlan, I think. But that's them playing
both sides, I think. Wakefield. who basically
is just playing Nathan Fielder. I didn't realize
it until watching it again, but it's like, no,
his performance, too, could be not as much Nathan
as the guy that plays Nathan. You know what I
mean? You know Nathan's double in the rehearsal?
The Nathan Fielder double guy feels very much
like Coleman Domingo in this movie. It's just
he's white and looks like Nathan Fielder. But
they have a similar, like, huh. yeah okay like
type of like i don't know there's something there's
something i did i i kind of i wish that he was
played by nathan fielder but that's neither here
nor there yeah it would have been a lot funnier
if it was yeah that would have made me really
happy i would have been like this movie's already
kind of like a weird clunky mess like i would
it would have totally just been fine if that
was like i can't imagine him like delivering
those lines it's very easy to because like Coleman
Domingo delivers those lines in a very similar
way. If you watch it again and think of him as
Nathan Fielder, you can just see Nathan Fielder
doing it. It's like, oh yeah, this would be perfect.
But it wouldn't be that different, honestly.
Well, what upsets me about this is I think maybe
my interpretation paints Spielberg as a much
more smooth -brained old boomer with a lot of
sentimentality and really does want to push a
good message. of like unity in a time where everything
feels like it's falling apart and that your take
kind of to me i think i think insanely smart
like 4d chess player who is like still like making
movies that no one's ever going to figure out
i'm thinking of him there's more of a continuation
of the ready player one thing where he's revealing
his take on his own career and i think that it's
very interesting for him to make a movie about
secretly using empathy for this outside force
that's controlling the narrative i don't know
there's something this felt confessional this
movie to me it felt like spielberg knows things
or something um i know that feels like a conspiracy
minded whatever but like i don't know if you
look at spielberg's career there are many things
that he is His timing on is insane. So we'll
talk about them more in the podcast at some point.
But the idea that there's a movie that largely
is talking about predictive programming for the
upcoming disclosure day or whatever and people
being programmed and that sort of, like that
being by Spielberg is interesting at the very
least. It is still very, very hard to know what
the deal is. I guess like, We should wrap up,
but, like, I guess one thing we can sort of wrap
up on is, like, there is a known fact that, like,
NASA contacted him when he was making Close Encounters
saying, you can't release this, it's dangerous,
which also ties in with Kubrick and Dr. Strange.
Right, but also, I just rewatched The Power of
Nightmares, Adam Curtis's movie about basically
how the CIA used UFO encounter stuff as a way
to discredit. you know, all of the things that
they were actually doing and whatever and promoted
UFO narratives and promoted the most out there
people of those, you know what I mean? And basically
use that as a, as a way of fighting the cold
war. And I don't know. It's just. That's what
Spielberg's doing when he's making this movie
for, and NASA's saying, don't put this out, or
the Defense Department's saying, don't put this
out. It's like, no, they're saying do put this
out, obviously. Like, obviously. That's a big
part of it. And that's why I think it's interesting
for Spielberg to make a movie now called Disclosure
Day about somebody who's working for... that
outside sinister, or not sinister according to
you, but to me, a sinister outside force who's
sinisterly controlling the narrative on TV. I
just think in both cases, the aliens are the
spectacle, but what they represent underneath
the reality, that is a different thing in each
movie, I think. And this just kind of goes too
deep, I think. I think in the end of that one,
it's him choosing to work for those people. And
the end of this one is him... Talking about working
for those people. The dollar eye pyramid. Well,
that's fun. And cynical. But I don't think there's
a dollar eye pyramid in Disclosure Day. No. There's
definitely a lot of eyes in the ad campaign.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But not under a pyramid. In
Disclosure Day, it's all butterflies. In fact,
when our eyes change color at one point, there's
a flash of... I think it's gold in the blue,
but it's a butterfly -shaped flash even. It's
all monarch butterfly stuff. Well, they couldn't
do it on the nose and do cardinal on the nose
bird. In the background of every shot with the
cardinals is butterfly stuff. It's weird. Or
at least with the cardinal. The cardinal mobile.
Yeah. And they're all hanging from a halo, like
a hoop. Yeah. But that mobile and the cardinals
are monarchs. And it's also trauma that's happening
to them in bed when they're 10 and they're together.
So they're connected and then they're activated
later on, which is a monarch slave process. And
it's all telling this fairy tale thing about
following breadcrumbs and stuff that is like
the yellow brick road and like monarch slavery
imagery and stuff like it. It just depends on
how you. interpret Hansel and Gretel, but the
most common interpretation is that by the end
they gain agency. It's a story about growing
up into an adult from a child who needs to follow
the breadcrumbs to receive support from your
parents. And after that is when they get in there
and then they start using the device on them
and they're screaming. And then it cuts. That's
the end. Well, it could be a subversion of the
story. The witch doesn't win. They kill the witch.
I don't know, man. The thing I wanted to mention
is just the fact that the other mere thing is
the song, right? She's singing Someday My Prince
Will Come from Snow White. Yeah. Instead of When
You Wish Upon a Star from Pinocchio. Yeah, similar
thing. More sentimentality. And so based on your
interpretation, it's like, okay, so that's the
monarch slave call that makes you think her prince
will come one day, which is Daniel. just like
the predictive programming of Wish Upon a Star
and Close Encounters or whatever. Right. And
it's also when IBM's AI became considerably intelligent.
And it's for Palantir, who's like, I don't know,
man. I don't know. I think it actually does really
all work in a way that's not even ambiguous in
the end, you know? Yeah, but I think just like
Hook, I think it's a litmus test. I think there's
ways to cynically view it and ways to positively
view it. So I just don't think it's as interesting
to see it as God because we are just as humans
much more interested in materialism and material
explanations and reality and the best that we
can understand it. god explanation or if it's
like it was all a dream it was all god it was
the deus ex machina like we just don't like that
in storytelling if it turned out that we had
no free will that would upset a lot of people
you know and but they had no free will in this
movie but it was just the question is that agency
was taken away by these aliens and you're just
saying well these aliens are good and i'm just
like okay but we just we have no way of knowing
we just like have have a way of knowing that
like They've put in a lot of work to make us
empathize with them. They've put in a lot of
work to already control this whole narrative
and take over this TV station, even though the
whole government is trying to shut it down. They've
already done a lot of things that, to me, doesn't
seem like Jesus would be doing them. I mean,
not Jesus, God. God controls everything. Or at
least God, like, shapes things or God talks to
people and then, like, gives them agency. And
God tries to guide people and show signs. And,
like, God apparates. Like, you can't, like, people
have to speak for God because you can't hear
God's voice. And, like, her doing the alien voice
that no one can understand except Daniel feels
like a... Yeah, but it's just math and it's binary
coding that he can understand. It's established
as just math and he could read binary coding
like it was English. Yeah, but it's also established
that math is the language of the universe, which
is what God would communicate in. And it's not
a perfect communication. Language, words are
field devices. Even math isn't perfect in describing
reality. The language of the universe is just,
that's a scientific idea. Math is the language
of the universe. It's observed from the world
as opposed to created in... I don't know. I don't
know. I think that just dismisses other points
I've brought up. Language is brought up and the
imperfect of how words are imperfect and not
a perfect way of describing things. Saying that
math is an imperfect way of describing the universe
but is the language of it I think is very interesting.
Yeah, I agree. Because to me that connects to
the idea that that's only a language. That's
only logic. That's only numbers. That's only
symbols. You need spirituality. You need empathy.
You need something besides a materialist view
of the world. We can't express the way we feel.
Artists struggle to describe spiritual connection
and miracles and coming into contact with God.
You know what I mean? It's almost impossible
to do. Fairchild doesn't. That's the whole point.
What do you mean she doesn't? She doesn't struggle.
She can just do it. Well, yeah, those are special
people. She's chosen. there are people in this
world who are like a conduit to a higher thing,
and we don't understand how they do what they
do. I think Spielberg relates to that. Right.
Exactly. And you would say that if there was
something in there that predicted the future
in a Spielberg movie... You're saying that Spielberg
is a massage agent that's being predictive programming?
That's proof that Spielberg is... you know, speaking
to God, God is speaking through Spielberg, whereas
not proof, just evidence potentiality is that
like, he knows something that we, the rest of
us do not know or something like that sort of
thing. You're saying that it's the former, not
the latter. I think everybody feels like they
know something. Somebody else doesn't know like
a real, like a truth and something that they
can't express because it's something they only
know in their bones based on their experience.
Maybe. At least a good director does. Like my
view of reality. Like what I actually believe
to be true. It's not something I can explain
to anybody. It's something I learned anecdotally
from my own experience. And I see it reflected
in a lot of art. I see the kind of truth I was
getting close to reflected in this movie. And
to me, maybe that just reflects me more than
the movie or what Spielberg's trying to say,
but that's art. Like I don't care about his intent
actually as much as like... what can be gleaned
from it. And like what I gleaned from it is like
a more positive way to move forward with my life
than assuming that it's all fucked and that it's
all just like an AI algorithm that's going to
control us. And, uh, yeah, that's because I still
kind of believe in miracles. I still kind of
have a spiritual understanding of the world.
I'm not insanely materialistic. I think that
sort of empathy you're describing, that sort
of positivity that makes you susceptible to the
sort of propaganda campaign that this alien waged.
What if it was just a propaganda campaign to
make you believe that empathy was always used
as a weapon and that you can never trust people
who talk about how they want to protect victims
or help the people who are destroyed by... the
actual people who make decisions and the actual
powerful people and all the, you know, secret
societies and government agencies and what have
you. Like, it's just, uh, what kind of programming
does it take to assume that Ward X are the good
guys? I don't think so. Also, what? Because you
think everyone's a bad guy. That's what I mean.
It's W -A -R -D -E -X. It's the war database.
It's Palantir. They're not the good guys. They're
just annoyed that somebody else is letting out
the AI god that they've created. Their little
AI antichrist that they've created has gotten
out because some guy who works at Palantir took
it or whatever. They also let that guy at Palantir
take it so that it could get out because that's
part of the whole thing that they want to release
this and take over. I guess so. Let us know that
it's in charge. You seem very convinced. I'm
very convinced. Yeah, I'm not. But I also just
kind of think there's a fallacy to this. I just
don't think... The idea that empathy makes me
more susceptible to propaganda, it's like...
I don't know. What are we talking about, man?
Does the lack of empathy make you less susceptible
or something? Does the assumption that everything
is just a conspiracy make you less susceptible?
No, no. It's just that the other part of the
thing is that that can be preyed on too, man.
That's all. Well, I think that's the thing that
actually makes you powerless and do nothing at
all. And then the other people are... goaded
into action, which gets manipulated and used
against them. Those people who are powerless
are the ones on their phones who are having empathy
for these aliens that are being tortured on screen.
So it's not the people who are... looking at
their phones, being afraid of like assassinations
that are happening or riots that are happening,
or just kind of feels like fear is used a lot
more often, especially to go to right -wingers,
right? Like the empathy is used more to go left
-wingers. I mean, yeah, but it's, it's empathy
for it's basically, it's horrors that were being
shown. Like that's all. Like, I think it's weird.
I think it's like specifically weird that. The
tapes are played as horrors and that they feel
much less like the disclosures that we've seen
of UFO stuff or whatever, where it's like people
are like, oh, that's crazy. That's cool. Then
it feels like the Epstein files where people
are like, what the fuck? This is actually like
this changes society kind of like all of these
things are downstream of this. And this is actually
downstream of that. And that actually is something
that people have been discredited for saying
for a long time. And this changes things that
but it's much more that sort of thing. And like
kind of releasing that as a way to deaden people.
It feels much more. tonally like that than it
does the other thing to me um but everybody has
their own you know interpretations it's not we're
not gonna convince each other just like um until
we watch it more i know someday um and maybe
there'll be more i think i've brought up i think
i've brought up plenty of arguments to back up
my position but ultimately i think uh This is
a crazy movie. It's pretty messy. But I think
everything in it, while it almost doesn't work
as a movie in a plot sense, it was really distracting
a lot of the times or jarring. But everything
kind of does work as some kind of a metaphor
or some way to interpret it or whatever. There's
a lot there. And I think you're just going to
have to leave with a lot of your assumptions
about Spielberg and maybe where he's at. And
then also look at yourself and just wonder how
much of it's coming from your own sort of, like,
programmed helplessness to do anything about
what's going on in the world. Sure. But, like,
ultimately it's, like, I do think we need empathy.
I do think we need connection. And, like, it's
a very sad and cynical thing if that's only always
just, like, utilized by the powerful as a weapon.
But, like, my thing here, man, is, like, my interpretation
wasn't everyone becoming zombies. My interpretation
was that, like... And, yeah, I know it's undercut
by the fact that it has to happen on the phones
and through the media, but that's, like, the
only way it would happen, right? Unless the alien
could hack everybody's brains. It's not just
that everyone's on the phones. It's the lighting
and the music and the shot choice and the fact
that nobody is... doing anything at all they're
just slack -jawed and it's the whole thing i
don't think i don't think i think that's very
different like to me that's people watching in
ready player one the thing is like when i was
watching that participating all i could think
is like this doesn't feel real because no one
would react to this this way that's true i agree
with that but but i think what it does feel like
people would react this way too is something
so amazing something so something that just completely
breaks down your materialist understanding of
the world and brings you back to faith. But like
ultimately something that's showing you a power
or something. And like, I know that like, because
like, this is also, you know, the whole idea
of the MacGuffin, right? Like I really like that
the MacGuffin is disposable. Like I like that
it can't be used forever. It's not a permanent
object. Right. And just how weak the old alien
is. I really feel like it's also very conveyed
that all of this connection and hard work creates
sacrifice. It will age you. This stuff takes
a lot out of you. It's just hopping from the
bottom. So it's a weak thing and it's in control.
It doesn't need to be. I like the idea that all
life force is kind of like impermanent. That's
how things are. I really like the connection
of like... the impermanence of life and how much
energy it takes to do the hard work and the connection
and all that stuff and how that seems very like
reflected in the technology and the way it disintegrates
and just like how it basically kills you when
you try to use it and stuff it's like too powerful
especially for you know like for noah it's like
he like starts going to cardiac arrest and seizures
if he's like doing it too long or if like it's
getting like interrupted in the wrong way or
whatever it is. Like it is a power that is like
godlike and beyond something that humans can
even manage. And like, I guess I just kind of
like it as a metaphor for this idea that like
Spielberg does know something and it's something
that like the people in power know too. And it's
something that they hide from all of us because
it would give us more power. It would like peel
back. It would show you the man behind the curtain.
and reveal their whole entire system of power
to be a house of cards that has no control over
us whatsoever. That's the way I interpret it.
I don't know why. If they wanted to reveal that
whole house of cards thing, they would have to
control the narrative from both sides, kind of
like in an eyes -wide -shut way, where either
you're for it or you're against it or whatever.
You can't do anything but empathize with the
victim that is this person, and they take over.
He's a victim because it's about empathy, man.
That's how you feel empathy is looking at someone
and their pain as something real and something
that you can connect with and not something that
you turn to an abstract just so that you can
end up like a material thing of someone on a
list. It has to be that way. Whether or not it's
being used for cynical reasons is another thing,
but you're not going to get an empathetic movement
talking about materialism. protecting the people
who aren't victims. Like, what the fuck are you
talking about? I don't know. I don't know if
the aliens are victims because one of them got
tortured one time. Well, like I already said
as well, you keep ignoring that the only time
you see the snuff videos is when he's trying
to convince Jane of their mission. Right. The
ending, you don't see the snuff videos. Yeah,
but everybody's still reacting to everything
as if it's the snuff videos. That's the point.
I mean, there are dead bodies of aliens and people
are like really disturbed by that in a way that
I don't think people would be. I think people
would just be like, what the fuck? That's an
alien. Are you serious? That's crazy. What the
fuck is that? But people are like, oh my God.
It would be disturbing. People empathize so much
with these aliens off the bat. It's a part of
the thing and it's because of the way the narrative
is presented to them. There's something that
Margaret's doing. I know, but it's just like...
Let's imagine that it's not what you're saying.
How else would you create an empathetic movement?
What did Christ do? I just kind of see that as
a metaphor for there was a man who spoke the
word of God, and it was powerful. It inspired
people, and it was very much against the Jewish
religion. It was the fulfillment of the scriptures,
though, right? The thing that I often was thinking
about watching this movie was that, what does
Isaiah say? prepare the path for the Lord or
whatever. The idea of the generations trying
to prepare the path for the Messiah to come to
be or whatever. I see that. I just think that
it's the same thing for the Antichrist. I understand
that and I totally agree with this analysis when
it comes to a lot of the things we talked about.
I don't know why I'm not feeling it here. This
one seems to subvert that to me. I do get that
like the ending is not glorious, but like, and
like, it's, it's a weird ending, but like, I
think it's like the, for me, like it betrays
something different. It's like a, it's a, it's
another, it's really one of, one of Spielberg's
false saccharine endings. Yeah. Yeah. I totally
agree. It's just what we think is hiding behind
that false pretense is different because like
it, it betrays non -reality just because of.
silly the idea that everyone would stop and look
at their phones over anything is right um that
you could actually like capture people in this
kind of way at all anymore um most people would
just like say it's ai which is what the new york
um the new york people say right when it comes
to that like can we confirm this is ai where
the source come from but like dude how long do
they work on trying to get that like corroborated
not long yeah they just go with it They just
go with it. If people saw that, no one would
believe that. See, that's the thing. This all
is much more representative, I think, of a paradigm
in which Spielberg was somebody that was important.
You know what I mean? In which these aliens needed
the empathy person to sell this thing to the
American people. What that thing is, I don't
know. Private Ryan got recruitments up ridiculous.
You know what I mean? There are lots of different
things. So you are making the case that he's
a bad guy. He's creating propaganda for the bad
guys. So you're making that argument. It feels
to me like this is a confession movie. It feels
to me like Spielberg's talking about somebody
who wants to, for the right reason, but is not
Truffaut in Close Encounters working for the
bad guys. This is a Watergate movie. This is
the movie about you can't trust the government.
And then he gets Truffaut to work for the government.
And yes, it's not maybe the government or whatever,
but the point is that it's about using the empathy
to sell that narrative to the people. Did Truffaut
work for the government and create propaganda
films or something? Or is it kind of like a dig
to put Truffaut in that position? I mean, I really
like the story that he didn't like that. He didn't
know whether that Einstein line was supposed
to be a joke or not, and he didn't really feel
comfortable delivering it. And then Spielberg
just gave it to someone else. Right. When he
says, like, so Einstein was right. And he says
Einstein was one of them. Right, right. If they're
the technotopians, if they're the scientists,
if they're the establishment, if they're all
this stuff. It's like, oh, Einstein was one of
them. Or if they're the Jews or the Germans.
I don't know. Who is it? It's a lattice of coincidence,
man. Somebody in a secret government within the
government who's, you know. controlling both
sides i think it's also very through the media
telling us how to accept things and also being
the victim while being disclosed that they're
in charge of i don't know it's it's it's an interesting
movie but i do think that there's a type of thing
that spielberg could talk about like talking
about a predictive programming like situation
a movie in which he talks about preparing people
for a coming event as this empathetic director,
essentially. I don't think that's the type of
thing that he could do if he was still preparing
people for recovery. I just think that the paradigm
has shifted. This is no longer the paradigm that
even Disclosure Day really applies to, I don't
think. Well, that's unfortunate and upsetting.
I mean, your interpretation bums me out, man,
to be honest. I like mine more just because it
makes me feel good about him and the future and
stuff, but yeah, maybe I'm just being... ignorant
but like i don't know i'm not like i'm i'm here
for empathy you know i'm here for whatever but
like not really for abstracts like i'm here for
empathy in my life and my locality and my to
the people i love and i think that's yeah i don't
know i guess that's true that's not what the
movie is like it's about getting the message
out to the world and Using empathy. That I think
is sort of wishful thinking, that you could still
bewilder the people with some sort of a spectacle.
That, I think, is what 2001 was about. That,
I think, is what Closing Counters was about.
That, I think, is what Disclosure Day was about.
I think that now it's a little bit outdated,
perhaps, but I think it is still about the same
thing, and it's confessional of the time that
he was involved with for his entire career, where
that was very much an aspect of it. It's an aspect
of anyone's commercial filmmaking career. Where's
this money coming from? You know what I mean?
Especially when you start working with, like,
NASA and whatnot at the beginning. Well, we've
liked to consider Kubrick as somebody who was
making the propaganda movie but subverting it
secretly. Right. And I kind of thought we were
making the case that Spielberg was doing the
same thing. I think that's true. But it doesn't
really sound like you're making that case. I
think that's true. What message is he subverting
here? If what you're saying is we're supposed
to get this message that this is about God and
faith, which I don't even think is completely
obvious either. But that's supposed to be the
message, this empathetic thing about empathy,
which is what we need right now. My interpretation
is more like that's actually what we need now.
As far as the movie is concerned, empathy is
not going to make us like AI more. This just
should have ended with the end of Bob and Carol
and Ted and Alice. Yeah, or something. Should
have went to the parking lot, walking around,
looking at aliens in the eye. And then it's,
what the world? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I'm
not sure that's, like, yeah, that would have
fallen flat. Like, I don't know what he can do
anymore, you know? But, like, if it's what you're
saying, it's so out of touch, you know? It just
really, like, doesn't reflect. I don't think
it's so out of touch. I think it's talking about
his career the same way that Ready Player One
was. And he's referring to that in a modern time.
You're assuming that he's confessing that he's
been, like, a government asset creating propaganda
to, like, protect your program people and the
things that are coming. The U .S. government
was invested in Private Ryan and whatnot. Yeah,
but I wouldn't call Kubrick someone who was specifically
trying to make predictive programming for people.
So what is the message that Disclosure Day is
supposed to be getting out to people? You would
say, oh, this is supposed to be teaching people
empathy and to have a more spiritual view of
the world because that makes them more susceptible
to the AI demon, who they think is actually God.
Because they have empathy for it somehow. Well,
just like the animals. Anthropomorphize the animals,
which is one of Kaczynski's big ideas of over
-socialization. Okay, but you're saying that's
the message people are supposed to get on Disclosure
Day? That's the predictive programming? Or is
the predictive programming... Well, first of
all, I think the part of the thing is you do
need to make a population soft if you're going
to take over, right? And empathetic to you specifically.
So you disagree with, like, Heavy's notion that,
like, goodwill is the ultimate timeless currency.
Like, it is materialism that wins. It is, like,
cutthroat activity that wins. I think that this
movie does not show empathy winning. I don't
know about life or whatever, but I think that
this movie chooses, like, a very... It doesn't
show you what comes after at all, man. Like,
you know what I mean? Yeah. That would really
determine whether or not this is a better way
forward or not. That's true. But we do see essentially
a takeover. Do you see what I'm saying? Not in
a way that's sustainable. Not one that feels
like there's actually a lot of structural elements
they can control. But they don't have to because
it's empathy. There aren't any aliens because
they're not real. They don't exist. They're not,
like, they're just a metaphor. They wheel in
a friggin' old alien, like, on a wheelchair.
Like, that doesn't, like, it's all so fake. Like,
it doesn't make any sense. They're a foreign
power. It's a fantasy. They're a foreign power.
Yes. As aliens often are, right? Like, as the
world's aliens are, or whatever. But they're
not a foreign power in Close Encounters. So you're
saying they're a foreign power? No, I think they're,
I mean... They're, like, they're... Their capitalism
and their corporatism in Close Encounters. So
in this one, they're not that anymore. There's
something else. I think this is a lot more like
the World of Worlds. It's just like... Yeah,
foreign power situation where we're talking about
a takeover. But Close Encounters is, yeah, it's
a takeover of a secret society takeover. But
it is still... I don't know. indoctrination happening
it's just happening on an individual level there
as opposed to the mass indoctrination happening
in disclosure day okay and like so it's only
expressing that power getting bigger and bigger
i just think if getting on the ship is like a
failure like going away from your family and
getting on the ship then like i also think just
like empathizing with I don't know. I don't know.
Maybe empathizing with the alien is a beautiful
thing and it's going to be a beautiful, empathetic
friendship or whatever. But there's always something.
It's just kind of like when you watch the ending
of Close Encounters, it's like the thing that's
betraying the ugliness is the fact that it's
so beautiful and colorful and shiny and bright
and like. It's not dark, and it's aesthetics,
whereas Disclosure Day is dark, and I think,
like, there's this whole Spielberg thing of,
like, mirrors going backwards, like, all this
stuff. Like, this betrays an unreality, or, like,
you should be, I don't know, and I just think,
like, to me, what would be really, really poetic
is if, like, in Close Encounters, the aliens
represent a truth that we work towards that was
given to us by corporations, and that, that has
led the world to a very dark, destructive place
where everyone is isolated and no one has community
and it's a fucking shit show. And I like the
idea that Spielberg is subverting that metaphor
and changing the aliens into an idea of God and
faith that we aspire towards instead. Right.
I like that too. I like that too. And then subverting
that is the ballsiest thing. Sure. Sure, sure.
We should wrap it up. Yeah, I'd say that's that,
Mattress Man. That's that, that's that. Ooh -wee.